BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:56 AM

Gosh, I forgot to mention the spectacular achievement of the virtual doubling of the cost of gas and electricity! How could I miss out THAT achievement!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:38 AM

Well quite. This excellent Conservative government, in charge for twelve years now, has overseen the superb transformation of an NHS that used to have 18-week waiting lists and easy access to GPs into one in which six million people are waiting for years for treatment, which has A&E departments that never meet their waiting targets, ambulances (which often take hours to reach seriously ill patients, if they get there at all)) in long queues outside hospitals and in which it's impossible to see your own doctor for weeks. This excellent government has also overseen the burgeoning of food banks, more children in poverty than ever before, crumbling schools, years-long public sector pay freezes, millions more workers on insecure contracts, hundred-quid tankfuls of petrol, hundreds of metres of empty shelves in supermarkets, real inflation at over ten percent, staff shortages everywhere as a result of the amazingly visionary decision to leave the EU, and an OECD forecast that we will have the lowest growth of any major economy except for Russia's. And what a brilliant move it was to put untested people into care homes in 2020, resulting in at least 20,000 unnecessary deaths, and what an achievement it was to be one of the worst countries in the world when it came to the outcome of the pandemic. On top of all that, the government is headed by a fat, racist, entitled liar and law-breaker in charge of a cabinet of complete no-hopers.   

Apart from all that, yes, truly excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 03:56 AM

Thank goodness we have an excellent Conservative Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 06:31 PM

I can't see anything wrong with showing the government up on a policy they are ashamed of.

The government might have chosen not to have MPs publicly defend their gutting of the ministerial code, but they are still going ahead with it. Our partial democracy doesn't give Parliament any control over that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 11:30 AM

Love it! Lots of those about, including one or two suckers on here…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 10:51 AM

Just seen a great post on faceache

"The simple fact that you were fooled and conned doesn't make you an idiot.

What makes you an idiot is when you BLATANTLY REFUSE to look at the truth and make the conscious decision to believe the lies."

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 11:31 AM

"Labour forced a division on its motion on beefing up the ministerial code (see 1.48pm), even though the government was not voting against. (You can do that by getting someone to shout ‘No’ when the Speaker calls the vote, and putting up tellers for the no side.) The motion was passed by 215 votes to 0."

I am sure there is some subtle advantage in doing this, but I don't see it at the moment.   Something to do with getting the names of every who voted and didn't vote for it recorded, I presume, which, long term, might play into a "did your MP vote to toughen the rules?" in a campaign. Remember that in a division the bells will be rung so everyone in the House or their office will know a vote has been called, and they will then have to explicitly choose not to attend.

But it all seems a shade tenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 10:55 AM

When they slap you on the back it'd be great if you didn’t have to worry whether they've a knife in their hands.

When the boss comes along, and he's singing your praises,
Don't be too hasty, don't take the chance.
Remember, there's only a very small distance
From a slap on the back to a kick in the pants!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 09:27 AM

If you assumed that all the payroll vote backed him, that would mean only about 100 of around 250 backbenchers don't want him gone. Which won't feel too comfortable standing in front of them. Though of course it would be very naive if he imagined that all the payroll vote did back him - but that means wondering which of those swearing allegiance don't mean a word they say, including the frontbench regulars who are rolled out to express their devotion when required.

When they slap you on the back it'd be great if you didn’t have to worry whether they've a knife in their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:21 AM

Bugger! That was 3,300! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:20 AM

Oak, Ash, Poplar, Pine, Beech, Alder, Birch

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:19 AM

Brian Bilston’s view of Johnson’s close-shave last night…

’Why are you still here, please go away…

hey, what’s that bad smell in here?
oh, it’s you, I thought you’d gone
because trust in you left years ago
yet you’re still clinging on

and even those who cheered for you
don’t want you here no more
so scram, skedaddle, avaunt, vamoose,
run along, now – here’s the door

see, we’ve had about enough of it
watched you stand, then sit, then lie
it’s time that you were on your bike
so long, shove off, goodbye

but you won’t, of course, you’ll blunder on
until your party’s torn apart
it’s the only thing that gives me hope
it’s not much but it’s a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:16 AM

and 3299...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:15 AM

because it winds up you lefties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, Bonzo, you openly admit that you post things just to wind people up. I am sure you are aware that that is the very definition of trolling and for you to be proud of doing so speaks volumes about your character.

I shall repeat my message to everyone else. Bonzo is either trolling of too dim witted to be involvved in sensible conversation as is best ignored.

We now know which it is and the action should still be the same. He will either get fed up of it or go to greater and greater lengths to wind up 'lefties' until he reaches the stage that there is no other option left to the moderators but to suspend his membership. Just my advice of course. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 03:07 AM

When Johnson was elected Leader of the Tory Party, many of us predicted that he would, sooner or later, divide the party, trash its reputation, and run it into the ground.

Slowly but surely that exactly what he’s doing, and this is the latest episode. And no matter how many Ministers they wheel out on TV to Big Him Up, they know he’s becoming a greater and greater liability. And Her Majesty’s Opposition know it too - they must be hugging themselves with joy.

Meanwhile, back in Mudcat-land, Johnson’s resident cheerleaders drop their trousers, lift their shirts, and look forward to taking it straight up the arse again from The Eton Bunch…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 02:40 AM

"It winds up you lefties"

Hardly. From a purely tactical point of view it's a dream result for the Labour Party. What would have been bad news for them would have been for Boris either to win with an overwhelming majority, or for him to be voted out.

Chucking an unpopular leader in the way the Tories do every now and again means that the replacement can get a boost. It worked for John Major, and it worked for Boris Johnson back in 2019, and in both cases they won the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 02:31 AM

Apples and pears. Comparing the relative merits of of election candidates with a vote of confidence regarding one lying git is a valiant attempt to save his skin but it's also highly disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:02 PM

Clear win for BorisJohnson in the confidence vote. Greater percentage than in his initial leadership competition, greater percentage that Starmer got in his leadership competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:01 PM

because it winds up you lefties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:49 PM

How can a lying self serving piece of **** who has contempt for every voter in the UK remaining PM be good news??????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:48 PM

He is seriously weakened. He is going to lose two safe seats in by-elections, he has given grist to the mill to the opposition, he has to face the standards committee - and he will be gone very soon. Otherwise I'll eat my flat cap.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:17 PM

A good proportion of Labour and LibDems will agree with that, Bonzo. A seriously weakened PM but still able to be trouble for the candidates and with a party split about 43% to 57% to run.

There are many in the opposition who think that a dream scenario for them.

It is not the best position for the country, but that's politics for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:05 PM

So good news - Johnson stays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:24 PM

Butbutbut --- Rules don't apply to a World King. Haven't you ever watched children in a playground? if the rules don't work in your favour, rewrite them on the fly. Remember also Sam Goldwyn's comment about verbal contracts.

I hereby dub the little offender in question The Fat Owl of the Remove.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:10 PM

If he lost this vote, he'd still be Prime Minister, and has the authority to call a general election. I can see him doing that. Some people have said that a threat to do that has in fact been deployed as a way of getting some vulnerable backbenchers back on side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:54 PM

If johnson gets through tonight, all this will mean is their are 180+ fawning sycophants with their snouts in the trough in the House of Commons.

If Johnson and tory voting lowlife think it would be a mandate to put his behaviour behind him and move on they are on a different planet. The result will not alter the fact that johnson is a lying, corrupt piece of **** who doesn't give a **** for anyone but himself and is a two faced git with contempt for every man, woman and child in this country. Tory party and opposition MPs have a duty to continue to call out in the House of Commons on a daily basis to remind the voting population that johnson is nothing but a self serving pathetic waste of skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:49 PM

Thank you Monique. Much appreciated :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Monique
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:43 PM

From there:
Snip
Under the current rules of the 1922 committee, if he wins this evening the prime minister cannot face a vote of confidence for another 12 months. However, these rules can be changed by the executive of the 1922 committee. According to The House magazine, “there is no codified rulebook for the 1922 committee.” And the specific process for confidence votes is not publicly available – “it is in Brady’s sole possession.” This means that the committee could change the rules at any time.
Snip

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:29 PM

I read somewhere that the 1922 committee have changed the rules so that another vote of no confidence can be held at any time but I cannot find any info :-) Maybe I dreamt it! Imagine having a vote every month. Or week. Or day! Would make Bozo's life interesting:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 12:15 PM

SRS you post " with the houses of congress so evenly divided we'd be watching new leaders appear alternately weekly"

This is not about the House of Commons, as a whole, having a vote of no-confidence but only the conservative side of the house having that vote.

It would be like your Democrats or Republicans having a vote their leader.

A new leader would be voted in and parliament would continue as before for the rest of their term in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 11:26 AM

We've heard the mutterings from across the pond about "PartyGate," and in my Instagram feed I'm seeing posts from friends that something is up with Johnson and a no-confidence vote. It's probably just as well we don't have something like that here in the US - with the houses of congress so evenly divided we'd be watching new leaders appear alternately weekly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 11:14 AM

Apparently a poll carried out of OCM showed that just 16.76m people took part in events over the past weekend to "celebrate" the anniversary of the queen being on the throne for 70 years. This number is even smaller than the numbers who voted to remain the EU. I wonder if they will say the same about people joining in the "celebration" and then tell us that the queen is a much loved and needed person to head our country.

I don't recall anyone saying that the number of remain voters was insignificant, just that the number of those voters was less than 50% of the turnout, and that it was the overall result that was significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 09:45 AM

Apparently a poll carried out of OCM showed that just 16.76m people took part in events over the past weekend to "celebrate" the anniversary of the queen being on the throne for 70 years.

This number is even smaller than the numbers who voted to remain the EU.

We were told by brexiteers that this number was insignificant at the referendum.

I wonder if they will say the same about people joining in the "celebration" and then tell us that the queen is a much loved and needed person to head our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 08:40 AM

I agree, Nigel, as do some of the betting sites. Of course it is possible to criticise someone by saying they must do more, but still support them in a confidence vote.

Staggering on with less votes in support than May had is, I think, the most likely outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 08:21 AM

A solid win is when the numbers are less than or about the same as the number who have publicly criticised him.

Highly unlikely then. According to The Guardian: In total, 50 MPs have been publicly critical of Johnson’s position without any caveat of saying he should nevertheless stay in post. as 50 is less than the 54 letters required to create the vote it is very unlikely that the number voting against Johnson will be below 54.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:15 AM

I suspect that Johnson will survive this no-confidence vote and I suspect that it has been called now to ensure his survival.

If, as expected, the conservatives are hammered in the forecoming Wakefield by-election all those members with small majorities will be concerned for their future and would possibly support a no-confidence motion.

However, once he has survived one, another cannot be called for 12 months. Thus Johnson can be seen to not only not give a damn for the popluation of the country but he doesn't give a damn for his fellow members of parliament.

The by-eletion in Tiverton and Honiton which has histotically had a strong conservative majority will also be a good indicator to the mood of the country, but if Johnson does survive the conservatives have 12 months to "reinvent" him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:13 AM

I will qualify what I call a "narrow win". Percentages worse than they were for May I definitely consider narrow. A percentage point or two better than May is also fairly narrow.

A solid win is when the numbers are less than or about the same as the number who have publicly criticised him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 06:29 AM

Steve Shaw> charisma

It seems to have evaporated, leaving only charisn'tma. I only started to believe the corner may have been turned when I heard de Pfeffel being booed on his way into the thanksgiving service.

--- Breaking news, as I type: the PM's anti-corruption chap has resigned said post. Truly we are living in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:52 AM

High drama? Probably not but it will bw close.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:21 AM

Johnson's charisma won it for them last time. Find me ANY Tory with charisma...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:59 AM

So we have the no-confidence vote this evening.

I anticipate that Johnson will win narrowly.

However, were I advising the Conservatives on their best strategy to win the next election, I would say dump Johnson and elect a new leader from outside the cabinet (though Mordant might do, because she is not so well known to the public.)

Whoever becomes PM, drop everyone from the cabinet who has a prominent public role, especially those who have been going round defending Johnson over Partygate and accusations of lying.

Elect a member of cabinet, or keep people who are thought by the public to be willing to lie about Johnson out of self-interest and you will just make people think the problem is the Conservative party as a whole. With a PM from outside the cabinet and a strong clear out, you might be able to convince enough voters that there has been a fresh start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 08:58 AM

Sorry Rain Dog but that is not what Dick said. I quote again "there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence" For them to have known or not known it was an offence, the offence must have already been commited. She is working on the premise that an offence must have been commited before she investigates. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 04:52 AM

"Hang on, you only investigate if the rules have been broken? You only issue a fine then, yes, but to have decided there was an offence before you investigate is back to front.'

You have to have reason to believe that an offence has been committed before you start to investigate (unless you are the taxman).

Starmer and Raynor are not obliged to answer the questionnaires. It would be interesting to know how many questionnaires Boris received and how many he answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 02:19 AM

As you say, Cressida Dick's criteria are a bit, um, odd. Take the one you highlighted. She says an investigation will only happen if those involved knew or should have known the rules were broken.

Hang on, you only investigate if the rules have been broken? You only issue a fine then, yes, but to have decided there was an offence before you investigate is back to front.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 04:38 PM

"...there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence."

Well first of all, and I think you may agree, I don't regard Cressida Dick as necessarily authoritative in such matters (I'm trying to be kind). Second, I always thought that ignorance of the law was no defence...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 22 - 02:49 PM

Starmer and Rayner have now recieved questionnaires from Durham police. There is no way of knowing if they are using the sane criteria as the Met, but as a reminder here are Cressida Dick's claimed benchmarks:
But she told London Assembly members that investigations were carried out for “the most serious and flagrant type of breach” where there was evidence and three criteria were met.

“My three factors were and are: there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence.

“Where not investigating would significantly undermine the legitimacy of the law.

“And where there was little ambiguity around the absence of any reasonable defence.

“So in those cases, where those criteria were met, the guidelines suggested that we should potentially investigate further and end up giving people tickets.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 May 22 - 10:19 AM

That will be a great relief to someone who loses a loved one to hypothermia or malnutrition that heir 'betters' can get massive tax giveaways to help further automate production and throw more people in manufacturing out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:41 AM

Their CEOs can stop going to the food banks then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 May 22 - 04:37 AM

Businesses whose accounting period ends before 1 April 2023, can claim the full super-deduction of 130% on qualifying capital expenditure - that is 30% more than its cost. Furthermore, if the super deduction is claimed for year ended 31/03/22 and creates a loss, it can be carried back against profits for the previous 3 years and tax refunds claimed!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 22 - 02:45 AM

You are right about Andy Burham, Steve. I was trying to cover that when I referred to 'outside' Parliament. To become leader, he would have to move from outside to inside somehow. Which would not be easy, by any stretch. Nevertheless, I think he does have the charisma which is a great benefit to a leader.