BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM

As there has been none of the regular infighting, circular arguments or abuse on the UK Labour party thread for weeks now and I have had no objection from the moderation team about starting new political threads I think it is safe to assume the issues have been resolved.

I have copied DMcG's post to kick this one off. Hope that's OK, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.

I agree. Brexit is nearly on us and while it is just one of the many failings of the Tory government, it does deserve a thread of its own. I may start another on the other disasters.

---

Nope. This one can run because it has been quieter lately, but several others intended to cause chaos are being thinned out. Mudcat is a music site and the amount of political fighting in the BS threads from the general direction of the UK and environs is too disruptive to much of the membership who come here for music. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM

why?other disasters, covid 19?
Iwas cycling along yesterday, and stopped to say hello to a walker who used to play trad music, he got on the subject of covid as soon as he could, quote
the trouble began when they restricted congregations of churches t less than 50, it is the house of god, god is all powerful, you are safe inthe house of god unless you are an atheist or communist.
the alternative round here is to talk to sheep, the conversation is equally perplexing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM

Goggle Ads posted "the 10 best Casinos on line" at the top of this thread. Goggle knows everything about us, so what are they telling us this time?

I posit they are whispering Brinkmanship - the kind that doesn't have a contingency plan in case of rare but inevitable far reaching serious interventions.

And that intervention happened like shit does, when you leave things to the last minute.

Did they "beware what you wish for"? we have less than 6 months to find out what they** wished for. The bet is we will get just that. Then we will habituate to the new normal, and we will blame Brexshit and they will blame COVID and everyone will think they are correct.

**we should be obvious but who are they ? Fakebook & St Petersberg come into that equation IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM

Mr Red:
You're probably right about 'brinkmanship', but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Dave the Gnome:
Interesting to see that the original quote (whatever its unstated origin) mentions refugees and migrants . It seems someone at least accepts that not all those arriving are actually 'refugees'.

Maybe this time around we will see a discussion based more on facts than on suppositions. We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM

As a partial answer to the usual question of why families are risking crossing the English Channel, this quote:

Though it is hard to grasp at first sight why any family would sleep in a wood rather than apply for asylum in France, the families and the charities who support them say the official accommodation centres are dirty, frightening and inappropriate for vulnerable families.
Armed police try to get families on to buses, tearing up tents. After a certain number of days families must apply to stay in France, and many do not want to do that.
One father told Fallowfield: “If the French would give us even basic support, I would go to the accommodation centre for my children’s sake. But they treat us like animals.”
Like other families here, he sees trying to reach the UK as his only option. “I have destroyed my life for my children to have a better future. I don’t want my kids to grow up where someone can brainwash them and make them kill for a living. Islamic State came to our country and that’s why I have come to this shit place. It’s the hardest job in the world being a parent.”
From The Guardian

So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM

Firstly, of course I have no objection to copying my post as an introduction to this thread.

I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine many people voting to leave because they were dismayed of what was happening to refugees and migrants in France and thought we should be treating them here and better. So that seems to be rather beside the original issue, which was the loss of the right to send such people who get to the UK back to the EU countries. Even last night on Newsnight one of the Conservative MPs for an area in Kent - I forget which - was stressing the importance of the Dublin Agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either. I'm not sure how your quote from the Guardian answers anything though. After the end of this year we will have no right to send anyone entering this country illegally back to their country of EU entry. I think DMcG's point about this ruling being against what some leavers voted for is still valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM

So,if we can no longer return failed asylum seekers to France from 1 January, we will need to repatriate them to their homes, which is also an option. BBC: Failed asylum seekers
While this is more difficult than just returning them to France, it does stop them immediately re-joining the camps at Calais and trying again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM

but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

There is no doubt that Europe has something to lose by not securing a deal. But the UK has more to lose. So playing my "life ain't binary" card, I am of the opinion that the brinkmanship is more irresponsible when the loss is the greater.

Change costs money, and this change will cost, and payback is ill-defined. Making deals at the last minute means dependent systems/infrastructure will be formulated in a hurry, and mistakes will be made. Which is why change costs more money. Which is why the UK has more to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM

Absolutely, Mr Red. I have nothing against change. Some of my best results in life have come though drastic change. But change for changes sake or, even worse, change when you have no idea what you are changing to is a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM

we can repatriate failed asylum seekers. Which means after their case has been reviewed. This is unlike the Dublin Agreement under which we could send them to France immediately, I believe. We cannot return a successful asylum seeker who is recognised as a refugee, but again a number would have been returned to France and the decision taken there, leaving France to host the refugee.

So while we can indeed send failed asylum seekers home, the number remaining in the UK is likely to be higher if we do not get agreement in place. Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM

Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.
And which is why, while negotiations are ongoing, we do not know what will be needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM

Mr Red:
Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned. Only those involved in the negotiations, UK & EU, can employ brinkmanship. St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM

"So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?"

I need to learn bow to do the italics.....

SO maybe if the racist little ****s in the UK were to make a serious and equal commitment to helping with refugee resettlement, countries that are doing far more than us like France and Germany would be under far less economic pressure.

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?
Any chance we can have that comment in English?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM

also it is well documented that English is more widely spoken around (the world than other European languages. I hope you are not too) tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM

Why? round and round in circles yet another discussion that gets nowhere, entrenched opinions, what a waste of time, bring back Jim, his style of insult was not as imaginative as MGM, but it provided a relief from the ennui of the fellow with his fishing rod .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM

It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.

You have been prepared in the past to accept their may be short term damage to the UK because of Brexit but that in the long term that is an acceptable cost to get the benefits*. I don't see why you can't say the same here: it is less than we wanted but in the long term we can absorb any disadvantages. Instead you seem to be suggesting it is not significant.

* With no estimate of the likelihood of that 'may' or hint of what 'short term' might be in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned

We can all nitpick when we favour parts not the whole. Which, let's face it, is why we have Brexshit.

And external parties pushing propaganda via social media.
Who has the most to gain from a divided Europe?
Who has the effrontery to poison people in other countries?
Manipulating Fakebook barely registers on the poison scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM

St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Dick, up to now no one is insulting anyone. Apart from you. It is not necessary, it is counter productive and it gets threads closed. We can now, hopefully, have a serious discussion where people disagree but respect each other's views and have threads without the rancour that has plagued earlier attempts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM

Good post, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM

I agree. I will not push the Dublin Agreement issues furthwr unless something changes. Those who wish have set out their views and that ahiykd be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM

Wow, what was that word supposed to be? 'should', believe it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Jos
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM

I'm getting the hang of these typos now - just look at the letters to the right or left on the keyboard. It gets confusing though when the 'words' include some correct letters. You just need to guess which ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM

I spotted it, Dave :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM

I'd being staying at a Premier Inn after visiting my children. My wife called out out that we need to leave for breakfast now to get to them, so "I'll just finish this post before we dash off"...


I do make far fewer typos when I use my laptop, but the phone is a bit of a disaster for them, I am afraid. And I rarely think my posts have enough merit to justify the sort of attention a thesis, job or application or report would get.


Meanwhile, back to Brexit. This comment from the EU that the negotiations are going backwards seems to have stirred some Brexiteers I read elsewhere into action.   They interpret it as saying what the EU wanted is not being achieved but the UK is holding firm and the EU is gradually realising it. Seems unlikely to me: the 'going backwards' phrase to me would be saying that things that had been agreed were not longer being agreed to. To what extent that is talking about things in the WA that the UK is trying to get out of, as opposed to things agreed in principle at the start of this batch of negotiations but no longer accepted is hard to tell. Certainly, there is plenty of the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM

Interesting remark in "The New European" from Alistair Campbell - I know, ad hominem away! - but I think it it true. It has been a long time since I heard this myself:


As for Brexit, even its high priests have given up singing its praises. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I heard anyone saying how great it was going to be for the country. It has taken on the feel of a trip to the dentist, or filling in your tax form.

Just got to be done.


Your experiences may differ, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM

DMcG:
It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.
I am not dismissing the issue. But it is not as yet something which is 'set in stone'. Despite the initial post with an uncredited quote:
EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.
When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

"The EU negotiators have dismissed". Yes, they've also dismissed the UK keeping its own (internationally agreed) fishing rights, and the UK have dismissed EU claims to UK fishing rights. This is all still under negotiation. To choose one particular 'dismissal' by EU as final is a poor starting point for any discussion.

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK of leaving the EU, but there would also be costs in remaining. I still believe the vote on leaving had the correct result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM

Dave the Gnome
Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Yes, I saw reports on "Russian involvement in British politics". I did not see that it included (even in the Guardian) involvement in Brexit. In fact there were complaints that involvement in Brexit was excluded from the remit of the reports.
Perhaps you saw different reports.

Guardian:Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK

Last time we discussed this, Nigel, you objected to a use of 'will' and insisted on a 'may'. Has that changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM

It may be that I was responding to something more specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM

I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM

Well I would think that most people would agree that there will be extra cost involved in the immediate future. Of course we will have to wait and see if the cost of leaving works out cheaper down the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM

Yes, Rain Dog, they do now. That doesn't mean they did before.

Of course, as soon as you admit costs, it is reasonable to expect some sort of cost benefit analysis, preferably with more depth than 'perhaps it will work out in the end.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM

DMcG
I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.
I hate to suggest that you haven't actually quoted me because I didn't insist, as claimed: that costs only 'may' occur. If I've found the same quote as you (27 Jan 2019) it says: "And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out."   The 'possibility' of 'hardships' is different to the 'need' for 'costs'.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)
So much for the numerous arguments, made many times on these threads (by remainers) that such a deal would never be accepted by the US.

My full quote, in context, is here: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM

We are trying to avoid arguments on this generation of the many threads, so I will simply say that if a cost is not a hardship, you are in a very fortunate position.

Let's move on!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM

A cost is certainly not the same thing as a hardship, and to try to conflate the two in order to get away with a misquote is misleading. Everyone has 'costs' every day, that does not mean that they are suffering from 'hardships'.
However, as you say, Let's move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM

A very interesting piece by Brendan Donnelly Here. I wonder how the Leave-Brigade will dress up the impending shit-show to make it appear as a resounding success?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM

For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.

Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some.of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM

I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Well, not really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM

Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.

Howver, something else about the headline you reerence, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it? The right wing press who are owned, in the main, by a dysfunctional Australian billionaire, a tax-exile Lord and a Russian family with close links to the KGB. These people have their own agenda and you can be sure that the welfare of the British people is not on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM

I think many of them were, but were dismissed as 'Project Fear'. The main difference this time is that it is the current government considering them, which is of course very much a "Leave" government.

How likely they are will vary. A shortage of some foodstuffs in December seems very likely to me, as we all remember the Great Pasta Shortage at the start of the virus outbreak. I can see that being repeated with a much wider set of foods fairly easily. Power cuts seem less likely to me.

===

I have been thinking a little about the fabled cliff edge, which has not been mentioned for some time. As with so much to do with Brexit, it is remarkably ill defined, so let me tell you how I think of it.

Let's start with the concept of a 'transition'. In the ideal world, we start with a known situation (for example set of rules and regulations) and a destination (with its spelled out set of rules and regulations.) During the transition, firms have, say, two years to implement the IT systems, carry out staff training and whatever so that at the end of the transition period they are ready to go under the new system.   The less time they have to do this - one year rather than two, say - the more difficult it is.   We are currently in the position that with four months to go, very little is known about the final state. Consequently, it is extremely difficult for anyone to have the appropriate IT, training and other preparation.

It turns out that whatever we have called it, we have not had a 'transition period', as few if any firms has had a chance to transition. We have simply had an extended negotiation period and called it a 'transition period'.

This to me is 'the cliff edge': it is not primarily economic. It is the need for firms to adapt to a substantially different way of working with little or no notice. An announcement on 31 December of the new rules that people have to follow from 1st Jan, or even with three months holiday from one side but not the other or whatever, is a cliff edge.

Trying to cope with such changes will almost certainly have significant economic effects, but they are consequences of the regulatory cliff edge.

Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM

”Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.”

And, without doubt, they will disagree - having voted for Christmas, the turkeys are very unlikely to want to face the fact that, in the near future, their silly, easily-led heads will be separated from their Union-Flag-bedecked bodies (metaphorically speaking, of course!).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM

From DMcG:
For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.
Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.

Immediately followed by Dave the Gnome:
I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Possibly because they weren't understood at the time, particularly the risk of a second wave of Coronavirus when we hadn't had a first wave. To what extent may that second wave exacerbate any possible problems at borders, how could that have been foretold?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM

Dave the Gnome:
Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.
My post was a direct response to your claim that the report had detailed involement in Brexit.
"Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now". Which you now appear to accept that it didn't.

However, something else about the headline you reference, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it?
No, I am not making that claim, I was just emphasising that the left wing press had already accepted that the report did not include Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM

I agree the risks due to the near simultaneous end of transition and the virus could not have been foretold specifically in 2016. There was, of course, a more generalised concern about a pandemic, but obviously at a much lower probability.

On the other hand the presentation is dated June and it was the 13th of July that Gove formally announced the transition would end in January 2021. So this government consciously accepted all the risks that have been outlined. A risk is not a certainty, of course, but the increased risk is a deliberate choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM

Scrap that, sorry. The document is labelled July, not June. So we cannot be certain whether the government saw the document and then announced the end of transition, or the other way around.   If it is the other way round, though, it would seem rather lackadaisical to make an announcement and then only get a presentation on the consequences sometime over the next two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM

cliff edge? More like freefall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM

some of us realised that four years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?

Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.

Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM

That's the one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM

Today my mrs got the most disruptive 5 year old in her class
to go an entire day without telling any teaching staff
to f@ck off...

That's the kind of extreme woke thing those traitorous marxist feminist teachers
are doing to brainwash white working class boys
into turning into transgenders...!!!

[yes.. maybe.. I've been researching too many far right youtube channels again...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM

Brilliant, pfr. I salute ye (and the missus) Sir!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM

i have never heard of lawrence fox,i have heard of other actors, but
i am not interested in their views on anything other than acting.
for example john cleese a well known actor probably has different views to lawrence fox, so what, why should i listen to fox rather than cleese, just because an accpuntant from croydon tells me too.
who exactly do you think you are, telling people we should listen to some actor called fox,rather than listening to john cleese or glenda jackson, or any other actor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM

It is a matter of personal taste, but compared to Tennant, Sim, Scott and others, I don't rate Lawrence Fox much as an actor. Nor compared to some others in the very extensive Fox acting clan.

I would seek him out for potitical advice, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM

I much prefer Emilia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM

Not my cup o’tea either, Mac. But hey, it takes all sorts I guess!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM

The neo fascists must obviously now regard posh luvvie fox
as a more publicly acceptable mainstream recruitment poster boy
than football hooligan robinson ever could be...

Though they are still keeping bitter old shite comedian jim davidson
as a back up...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM

Davidson once slept on my mother-in-law's sofa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM

Shame she didn’t smother the bugger with a pillow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM

On reflection it might have been Freddie Star. But I don't think he ate any hamsters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM

From yesterday's "Observer". I have not linked the piece as it only says the same thing in different ways but I found this section hilarious.

In the latest ConservativeHome survey of what activists think of the cabinet, the prime minister comes in 24th out of 25. The education secretary is the only cabinet member with a worse approval rating. That’s the verdict of Tory members on their own prime minister: “not quite as useless as Gavin Williamson”.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM

The usual witty and insightful review, by John Crace in the Guardian, of the Prime Minister’s woeful performance presenting his speech to the virtual Tory Party Conference.

Let’s hope Crace is right, that the former Labour voters who allowed themselves to be conned into voting Tory at the 2019 election have indeed ‘grown up’ and realised what a bunch of twonks they elected, and that they give Johnson a good kick up his fat, bone-idle, clueless arse next time (assuming he lasts that long, and his own party haven’t given him the push before then).

Subject: BS: Birthday Honours
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM

Wonderful honours list which includes 414 names of NHS and social care staff, fundraisers, shopworkers and drivers, etc. - the unsung heroes of the pandemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM

It would be even more wonderful if they paid them properly. Gongs don’t pay the bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM

With 1.4 million employed by the NHS and 1.6 million in social care, 414 baubles means that 99.99% were ignored.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM

Spot on Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM

Today's main Brexit event is the Agriculture Bill returning to Parliament.

The story so far:

In December 2019, all Conservative ministers stood on a manifesto that included maintain the UK food standards (p 57 for those interested.)

When the bill first came to the House, it included nothing to protect the standards. Amendments to introduce those commitments were proposed, but voted against.

The bill passed to the Lords, who wrote such protective measures into the bill.

It has now returned to the House of Commons to be voted on this afternoon. The Government has declared one of the amendments inapplicable of a technicality and it was reported in either the Times or the Telegraph (I forget which), that Dominic Cummings "instructed ministers" not to accept the amendments.

The last poll of the public suggested 94% want the standards preserved. I know polls are very unreliable, but it is fair to conclude, I think, that the majority want the standards maintained. The RSPCA do. The NFU do. The environmental groups do. Consumer bodies like "Which?" do. Some supermarkets have said they will not stock chlorinated chicken.

But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM

”But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.”

Those of us with more than half a brain knew exactly what the BrexShit-Bunch’s ‘Take Back Control’ meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM

what a mess

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM

Of as someone cleverly said the other day, an Eton mess is supposed to be meringue, cream and strawberries. Not what the government do :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM

Seems that the areas most likely to vote Tory next time have been left in the lowermost tier.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM

Gawrsh , who’da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM

I thought the lowermost tier was for those areas showing the lowest rate of virus infection. The areas where, whether by luck or good judgement, people have avoided spreading the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM

Something like that, Nigel. But if it was exactly like there there would be a little table somewhere saying when the cases per thousand was such and such then you would be at level N. Since there isn't - so far - then there is some margin of judgement, and that could be partly political.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM

The virus is far more prevalent in large conurbations and deprived areas, Nigel. 'Tis true that some constituencies in those areas were stupid enough (or at least contained a lot of stupid enough people) to return a Tory. Once their pubs have been shut (for beer at least) for a few months, their jobs have disappeared and a few more thousand of them have died, the time may well become ripe for the feckless Johnson to look to his laurels...

Unless, of course, the almost equally feckless "Dishy Rishi" has taken over...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM

"meringue, cream and strawberries" ? It’s more likely to be a choice between jam roly poly and custard and apple pie and custard .That’s from what I saw when doing some plumbing in a Whitehall club a long time ago ........... Maybe they were from Harrow though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM

sorry for the thread creep, carry on.

Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless her!

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM

My father-in-law, a mighty Somerset man and a far better person than Thatcher, would also have been 95 today. He died ten years ago. I loved him to bits. He would probably have been ashamed had he known about the coincidence.

Funny how it goes. Mrs Steve's lifelong best friend has her birthday today (we had her round for tea and a chocolate brownie this afternoon, and she's coming round for my lamb stew on Saturday night), as does my first fiancée (she had a lucky escape), as does one of my best mates from school in the sixties. Nothing on the 12th, 14th or any other day anywhere near. Weird!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM

Yet again, it seems Boris Johnson is saying yes, we really really will walk away from the trade deal talks, we mean it and this time are so so serious.

But not actually quite doing it.

Looks like it will be no deal at the end of October on the EU timetable at this rate. Unless the PM actually concedes enough to satisfy the EU, with probably them giving him a fig leaf to exalt over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM

Others might say that the EU, having failed to make the UK cave in to their demands, is extending their previous 'definite deadline'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM

People can say that if they like. But on 2nd September Barnier said the end of October is the deadline, and on the 7th Johnson said it was the 14th.

Whether Barnier said it earlier I haven't checked, but that 2nd September speech is available online.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM

15th. Sorry, the inevitable typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all. quote
Brexit is a world wide issue too, it aff4cts the usa china ne zealand australia furthermore the whole world
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless hr quote.
a matter of opinion, not a fact, other than it was her birthday

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM

EU are not making demands, the British lowlife are. All EU are doing is stating what the conditions are for a trade deal outside of the single market. If UK wants to trade with EU the accept EU conditions.

The trouble with people who support leave is that they are so arrogant that they would try to join a folk club and demand the right to change the club rules to their own benefit.

Losing our rights as EU citizens is another matter, and the EU withdrawing our freedom of Movement and benefits of the single market as individuals' is nothing but vindictiveness.

Subject: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM

new allegations about Boris and pole vaulter from Peckham.

Subject: RE: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM

The Sunday Times reports she went for the job at Tech City in 2012, weeks after Mr Johnson started bidding for City Hall to take control of the same quango.

The allegations adds to mounting questions Mr Johnson faces over his links with the businesswoman - due to appear on Good Morning Britain tomorrow.

He has already been accused of granting public funding to Ms Arcuri, whose flat he's said to have visited "several times".

She reportedly received £10,000 in business cash from an organisation Mr Johnson was responsible for as London Mayor in 2013.

And Ms Arcuri, who was in her 20s at the time, was also allegedly given special treatment to attend jet-set trade missions led by the future PM, according to a Sunday Times investigation.

Mr Johnson has now been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), and must provide details of their relationship by Tuesday to a summons from the London Assembly.

If he fails to do so he could face a penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM

Eck, if you’re quoting, why not italicise the piece you’re quoting and put it in inverted commas? Then your posts might make a bit more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM

That was for The Sandman...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM

Conversely Backwoodsman it might be his own opinion and he is just echoing Bonzo!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM

Never thought of that, Raggy! Hmmmmm..... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM

Boris want to change the conditions of trading with the EU. It's the EU's fault that talks have stalled.

Boris wants to put Greater Manchester in tier 3. Andy Burnham says that to do that they need more funding. It's Andy Burnham's fault if the contagion increases.

Anyone seeing a pattern here? Not only is Johnson a pathological liar but he also doesn't understand that negotiations are a two way thing. I suppose he was brought up to believe that if you shout, stamp your feet, throw the toys out of the pram and blame everyone but yourself, you get your own way.

I pity his children. However many there are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM

Any discussion of UK future trading with EU has no correlation with what's happening within the UK. Any attempt to compare the two is a non sequitur.
Similarly, any discussion about Boris Johnson's children (legitimate or otherwise) has F*** A** (very little) to do with the political discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM

Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest. Boris proves himself to be none of these things every time he opens his mouth. Not being able to say how many children he has sired is a prime example. Blaming the other party when negotiations go wrong is another and, in this case, worse still because it affects the lives of millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM

I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave. What we certainly did expect was that they should be held to account when they were not. The whole rationale for Freedom of Information Acts wherever they exist is to expose the occasions politicians ae not, and to hold them to account when that happens. Ditto the various ways powers are separated.

What we have discovered over the the past few years - and the 2016 referendum is as good a starting point as any - is how weak the UK system is on holding politicians to account. When individuals and governments can be found to be in contempt of Parliament and they basically shrug and say 'So what?' the accountability is failing. T When the question of whether supreme court judges in the UK should be subject to political veto is seriously considered, the separation of powers is failing. When Parliament itself votes to have no say in ministers decisions on trade (for example), the representation of the people is failing.

Personally, I regard these things as ultimately more significant than the economic impact of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM

What we are seeing now is precisely what the people of Germany saw in the 1930s. A government spreading its own propaganda, making itself unaccountable, demonising minorities - ‘the other’ - and actively creating divisions, blaming others for their own actions and inactions, practicing the Goebbels philosophy of repeating lies so frequently that no matter how big are the lies, in the people’s minds they become truth.

And we tell ourselves it could never happen here, yet we have evidence of the success of the government’s brainwashing tactics on this forum and, indeed, in this thread. Well worth remembering that, in 1930s Germany, it didn’t begin with gas-chambers, it began with ruthless politicians determined to pursue their agenda whatever the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM

We are all aware of the risks bring Hitler into threads like this, but I don't think that oversteps the mark, Backwoodsman. It is genuinely salient to look at what was happening around the time of the Enabling Act.

I have recently been reading a book called "They thought they were free: The Germans 1933-45", first published in 1955. The author is essentially a journalist, not a historian. So far I have only read the first part, which is events as seen through they eyes of ten relatively ordinary people: a local mayor, a policeman, a baker, a teenage schoolchild and so on. I am afraid I do see parallels, though fortunately I also see very substantial differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM

I deliberately didn’t mention Hitler, DMcG, for obvious reasons. However, the rise of the Far Right in the UK, as well as the US, is reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and some of the tactics and practices being employed are undoubtedly similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM

Quite so, Backwoodsman, quite so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM

and of course ALL labour polititians are open, ethical and honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM

politicians that is!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM

Politician - Sons of Cream!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM

Can you not read Bonzo.

Dave the Gnome posted "Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest"

DMcG posted "I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave."

No mention there of Liberal, Labour, DUP, Scottish Nationalist, Plaid Cymru, Greens or Conservative. **

However we do have a Conservative leader who seems to be a stranger to the truth.









Apologys to those political parties I may have missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM

Whataboutism just doesn't wash, Bonzo. For the first time we have a prime minister who seems to see nothing wrong with lying, cheating and plain incompetence. What is more he seems to believe he can get away with it and will continue to do so as long as the very electorate that he is leading up the garden path continue to excuse him. I hope all the turkeys that voted for Christmas are happy with the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM

Tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM

Don’t. Feed. The. Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM

Always the same when anyone questions the labour shambles, and it is a shambles. Even starmer has lost it now. One consolation perhaps is that abbott is out of the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM

But how many Labour MPs are the current prime minister?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM

doggerel from the dogs bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM

Bonzo. The Tories have an 80 seat majority. The lying blonde bufoon is prime minister. Labour are powerless to do anything but point out the idiocy. The mess we are in is no one's fault but the Conservative governments. Yet you, Boris, the Conservative party and the Tory apologists will take no responsibility for anything. Preferring instead to blame a Labour party who's hands are tied. I know you don't care but I take great pleasure in seeing you trying to lay the blame elsewhere while everyone else can see where it really lies. Keep it up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM

Dave, he is dogmatic, his dogma is blame everything on the party in opposition

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM

Bonzodogmatic? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM

Bonzodogdoodah band were far more amusing. **












My apology for the poetic licence with the name !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM

These comments by Lord Kerr, and the earlier ones by Lord Neuberger fit into this discussion quite well, as the address the relationship between the judiciary and Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM

Good articles, Mac. No matter which side of the political divide anyone is on, the absolute necessity for a judiciary, independent of the political parties, with the power to call politicians to account, must be perfectly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM

As if by magic...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-government-has-moved-to-shift-blame-to-businesses/19/10/

So businesses are to blame for the government's failure to fulfil its promises

We are to blame for their abysmal record with the virus

Labour antisemitism anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM

Businesses should not be making any changes at all to the way they operate, and if anyone takes issue, then all they have to say is 'take it up with Johnson'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM

Stolen from a Facebook friend. Bit long but well worth it

Post this
You really couldn’t make it up! ( sorry, did I say that last time...)
The Week in Tory is back! Fasten your seatbelts...
1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being
“medium”, like at McDonalds
2. As part of the announcement, the Chief Medical Officer reassuringly said the plan wouldn’t
work
3. The govt said “in all cases, we are following the science”
4. It was revealed the SAGE science committee told the govt to lockdown weeks ago, but that
bit of science wasn’t followed very far 5. SAGE went on to say the govt’s “world-beating” £12bn
Test and Trace system was having only “a marginal impact on transmission rates”
6. Dido Harding, head of Seemingly Everything, said Test and Trace would be “local by default”
and be “highly efficient”
7. She then handed £12bn to Serco, which is highly efficiently charging us £7360 per day for
consultants. To trace Covid infections. Which they aren’t doing
8. Serco’s CEO is the brother of an ex-Tory MP. His partner is a Tory donor. Serco’s ex-head of
PR is now a Tory Health Minister
9. If you feel all this is a bit corrupt, you can complain to the govt’s Anti-Corruption Champion,
John Penrose, who is married to Dido Harding
10. Meanwhile an investigation by the Good Law Project found PPE suppliers owned by Tory
donors or associates were paid 30% more per item than similar businesses globally. I'm talling
you: John Penrose. He’s your fella. He’ll get to the bottom of it, fo shizzle
11. And only 34 days since the announcement of Boris Johnson’s "brainchild", the £100bn
Operation Moonshot, it was quietly scrapped, along with (apparently) Boris Johnson’s brain and
around 28% of his children
12. A Tory MP said Boris Johnson’s “personal skillset this doesn't play to this. He's not a details,
manager type. He's a picture painter”. On the side of wine-boxes, mostly.
13. Another said “I think it's obvious this is a government happier picking fights than governing”
14. Another said Boris Johnson “prefers to get on with dog-walking” and “let’s Dominic do the
work”
15. Chastened by reports local authorities were given only 5 minutes notice of previous
lockdowns, this time the govt gave them ... 7 minutes notice of the meeting to discuss it
16. Except some MPs didn't even get that, and were only invited after the meeting had started
17. And the govt invited the MP for Sunderland, who had to inform them she was only of 3
Sunderland MPs. The govt was “surprised to be informed” of this
18. The dep Chief Medical Officer said the infection rate in the north “never dropped” meaning
the relaxation of lockdown was at the expense of lives oop north
19. Then the govt said they would “devolve more decision-making” and “give more financial aid
to local authorities”
20. But the aid is conditional on the "devolved" local authority doing what the govt wants, which
is quite a novel a definition of "devolved" 21. So, following criticism, the govt briefed the press
that it was going to consult more with regional govts
22. Literally 2 hours later, the govt briefed the press that Manchester was moving into Tier 3
restrictions. The Mayor of Manchester was not consulted (or even informed) about a decision he
must implement, and which affects the largest city-region outside London.
23. A Tory MP, anxious about the lockdown affecting businesses over the party season, asked
the PM “what can you tell us about Christmas”. Boris Johnson replied, “it’s a religious festival
that’s been celebrated 2020 years”, which I’m sure helps us all
24. Matt Hancock insisted we all follow the science and adhere to the 10pm pub curfew that
scientists say makes absolutely no improvement on infection rates
25. Then Matt Hancock broke that curfew, in a House of Commons bar
26. And then Matt Hancock said “The drinks are on me but Public Health England are in charge
of payment methodology so I will not be paying anything”
27. In August, Public Health England was scrapped by [checks notes ] Matt Hancock
28. But prior to that, Tories imposed budget cuts of 5% to 10% on Public Health England for
each of the previous 7 years
29. Unsurprisingly, it was reported that hospitals in the north of England would run out of beds
within 7 days
30. The govt said "Hospital Trusts should consider cancelling all non-urgent treatments"
31. The govt then refused to drop fines it imposes on Hospital Trusts which cancel non-urgent
treatments
32. So Matt Hancock announced the reopening of Nightingale Hospitals, which were closed last
time because nobody could send patients to them, due to them not being staffed
33. They still aren’t staffed: Matt Hancock's' "urgent boost to nursing training" doesn’t start until
2021
34. Fortunately, the govt began a campaign to get ballerinas to retrain, and then scrapped the
campaign 24 hours later
35. In June, Boris Johnson announced an "urgent" £1.57bn Arts Rescue Plan
36. A mere 127 days later, it "urgently" got around to paying out some of that money
37. Except by now the £1.57bn had become £257m, which is 16% of the plan they originally
announced
38. Meanwhile, in news that will surely leave you all stunned and astonished, a month after work
began on HS2 the budget for it has already risen a further £800m
39. Boris Johnson congratulated Marcus Rashford on the MBE he was awarded for his efforts to
overcome the cruel policies of Boris Johnson
40. The Law Society raised concerns about the “dangerous rhetoric” of Home Office Minister
and Mouth of Sauron, Priti Patel
41. The next day, a migration lawyer was victim of a knife attack, and senior lawyers said
“Responsibility and accountability for this attack lies squarely at the feet of Priti Patel”
42. The Home Office announced plans to catch migrants in a big net and OH MY GOD
43. And then Lord West reassuringly said, “we need to deal with migrants in a concentrated
place, a camp or whatever”. He didn’t mention whether Arbeit Macht Frei, but it’s still only
Thursday, and who can tell what the remainder of the week will bring? [Open 2nd bottle now ]
44. Speaking of dates: today is 15th Oct, the absolute, immoveable deadline for trade talks that
mighty, fearsome Boris Johnson laid down to the cowed and quivering EU
45. Talks continue tomorrow. Because obviously, duuur
46. This is the third absolute deadline imposed by the British that has been missed because the
British have temporarily inverted arse and elbow
47. This didn’t stop Cabinet Office minister Lord Agnew from berating haulage businesses for
not being ready for Brexit on 1 Jan
48. The Road Haulage Assoc pointed out we have only 1,668 of the 33,000 EU Haulage
Permits we need on 1 Jan
49. Software to control our borders won’t be ready until 4 months after 1 Jan

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM

Conmtinued...

50. And the govt is “still in the planning stage” of the “Kent Passports” we need on 1 Jan
51. And construction of Kent's “world’s largest lorry park” is behind schedule, so probably not
ready on 1 Jan
52. Fortunately the govt is well-prepared, and plans to install 1000s of Portaloos in Kent, the
garden of England, to be used by lorry drivers trapped in 2-day queues
53. And our food standards will still be fine, as Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi tweeted “Our manifesto
was clear. We will not compromise our animal welfare and food standards”
54. He then voted to compromise our animal welfare and food standards, as did the rest of the
Tory Party
55. And then govt used an obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on whether to allow chlorinated
chicken
56. Meanwhile, 20 years after North Sea Cod became so overfished the WWF declared it
“economically extinct”, Tory MPs voted to reduce protections designed to let fish stocks recover
57. So, after Brexit, our current plan is to accept tariffs that will destroy our manufacturing
sector, and border delays that will destroy farming exports and imperil food supplies, and
destroy the farming sector ... all so we can go and catch a fish that doesn’t exist
58. But at least we’ve now "got back control", and therefore we can level up the playing field by
implementing the govt's landmark “digital tax” policy on giants such as Amazon
59. This week it was announced Amazon will be exempt from the digital tax
60. Speaking of tax exemptions, it was revealed Dominic Cummings has had a £30,000 council
tax bill “written off” because he built the house illegally, so it doesn’t count as a real house, or
summat. Sorry, my hurricane-force sarcasm briefly turned me more northern.
61. And on the subject of extreme dodgy dealing, let me direct your attention to Robert Jenrick,
who set up the £3.6bn “Towns Fund” for the 101 most deprived town, and then gave the
maximum grant of £25m to his own constituency, which is the 270th most deprived town
63. His explanation was that he, Jenrick, did not make the decision. It was made by a colleague,
Jake Berry.
64. Jake Berry also got money for his constituency. By a dazzling coincidence, that decision
was made by – you guessed it – Robert Jenrick
65. Finally: at a meeting led by Liam Fox, the TaxPayers Alliance (insanity-pushers to the Tory
Party) advocated cutting pensions immediately because half of old people “won't be around to
vote against you in the next election”, and the other half “will have forgotten by then”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM

What a long list of stuff happening. How does it shake out for individual members? What are each of you seeing in your immediate world that is impacted by COVID-19-laced negotiations?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM

Mrrzy just posted a Boxer parody about Trump and I think we can do better. I'll make a start

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM

In answer to your question, Stilly, I am pretty lucky. Retired on a reasonable pension. No debts to speak of. No real wish for material wealth. Living in an area of low contagion. So not much effect on me as yet. However, as the economy is bound to plummet as a result of both the virus and Brexit the future is pretty bleak for many, including my family and younger friends.

The other thing is, whether it affects me or not, I do not appreciate being lied to by those who are supposed to be looking after us. I have always been cynical of politicians in any party. I think that anyone who seriously believes they can run people's lives should be debarred from public office on the grounds of megalomania. But the lot we currently have at the helm really do take the piss. I will point out their lies and broken pledges whenever I come across them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM

Like Dave, I am retired on a reasonable pension and not directly affected by much of this. But plenty around me are. I have a friend who owns a small haulage company and she is in near despair over the situation. Almost every question she has is still unanswered, and the licencing aspect alone has major impact. Eldest son works for an American legal firm in their London office and there is much uncertainty whether they will move everyone to their Brussels office, and if so, when. Second son works for an international fashion goods company (high end shoes, handbags etc) on the web sales side. So far they are in profit this year, having shut all the high street shops but the future is naturally uncertain. Since the growth area is online sales, though, he is probably ok.

Daughter works in recruitment, which is more affected by covid-19 than Brexit, as far as we can separate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM

I live on 485 euros a month, so if anyone wants to buy anything from my website , i will be pleased

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 20 - 09:43 AM

Europe has been good for ireland in a liberalising approach, it has taken a country highly influenced by reactionary religious elements and gradually turned it in to a much more liberal minded and forward looking country

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 20 - 11:15 AM

Ireland isn’t a part of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 20 - 03:54 PM

:-)

;-)

:-))

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 20 - 04:45 PM

Who's the guy with the double chin?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 02:50 AM

Is it a double chin or a slit throat? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 03:53 AM

northern ireland is part of the uk , and because of brexit there is a big border problem looming, it is affected by brexit so my comment is relevant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 04:06 AM

I have lived in ireland for 30 years so i am aware republic of ire is not part of uk. talk about teaching grand mother to suck eggs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM

Disgusting. But, sadly, what we have come to expect

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 20 - 09:14 AM

You didn’t mention Norther Ireland, Dick, you said ‘Ireland’, which is the universally understood term for the Republic of Ireland. The Republic is not part of the UK, neither is NI a part of the Republic.

The title of this thread is ‘Brexit & Other UK political topics. Please stick to the thread topic, and don’t give the mods another excuse to close our one and only UK politics thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 08:49 AM

The EHRC's key findings as reported in the Guardian

The Labour party could have tackled antisemitism more effectively “if the leadership had chosen to do so”, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) concluded as part of its 130-page investigations

Not that antisemitism is rife in the party, just that they could have handled it better. I'll be honest and admit that I have not read the report and am not likely to do so as I am not one for politikspeak. Any of the better versed or equipped care to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 09:37 AM

And Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings, and has had the whip suspended for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 09:52 AM

I saw he had been suspended but not for denying the findings. Do you have a source for that, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM

Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed...the list goes on and on, need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM

BBC news (Radio)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:01 AM

...the list goes on and on, need I say more?
Hopefully not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:14 AM

The truth must be very painful, Nigel. But your denial won’t make it go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:05 AM

I didn't deny it, however:
Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"
" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.
"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:25 AM

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government"

can you even begin to imagine the winkie wankie wokie abortion which a Corbyn (now sacked from the labour party) government would have been guilty of?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:56 AM

Bonzo, how many times must we tell you this. The current Tory government has an 80 seat majority. The cock ups they are guilty of are no one's fault but their own. What any other party of leader may or may not have done is completely irrelevant.

Nigel. Yes, I have seen and read the BBC news. I cannot find where it says Corbyn had been suspended for denying any findings.

Nothing I have get seen from reports of the EHRC findings seems to indicate the the Labour party has a worse antisemitism problem than anyone else. It does say that their reaction and procedures for handling antisemitism left a lot to be desired. Am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:00 PM

Nigel again

Specifics? or just random claims?

I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:01 PM

List=post

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:19 PM

The grip on Starmer's short 'n' curlies is so over tightened now,
clumps are being pulled out at the roots..

Might as well just relinquish leadership of the party to margaret hodge and be done with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:20 PM

Nigel again
Specifics? or just random claims?
I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM

A link to a Guardian opinion piece?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:21 PM

Or did you mean the two post list taken from someone else's Facebook rant (a few days earlier)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:36 PM

No, Nigel, I said my post of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM so which do you think I was referring to? It is a link and there is some opinion in it but if you would care to dispute any of the facts quoted by the author to support his opinion, please feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:37 PM

Oh, 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:46 PM

The ECHR report into Labour

I have not read it yet, but will do as soon as possible.

As far as I am aware at the moment, Corbyn was not directly named in the report, but was suspended because in his remarks after the report was published he acknowledged anti-Semitism but said it was overstated. This fell foul of Starmer's remarks that those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM

That is the way I have seen it too DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM

So how long before starmer starts suspending Jewish labour members,
who disagree with his unreasonable authoritarian definitions
of 'unacceptable anti-semitic behaviour'...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM

Sounds like Starmer is winding up the lefties - I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM

Nothing sensible to add Bonzo?

Maybe you're just trying to fill the void left by the previous trolls. Be careful though and remember what happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:34 PM

” the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"

1) As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Tories have an 80-seat majority, so nothing Labour may have suggested has any relevance.

2) Neither you, nor I, have any information on the detail of discussions which took place between the Tory and Labour leadership regarding the handling of the COVID crisis, so your assertion that Labour offered no alternatives is mere supposition.

" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.”

There’s a great deal of evidence that these things are already, or are destined to be, part of the negotiations between the US and the UK. It’s been widely reported in the press and media, and commented on by members of the government. Easy to find unless, of course, one chooses to pretend it doesn’t exist.

"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Once again, numerous examples widely reported in the press and the media - easy to find unless, of course, one chooses not to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:26 AM

I still haven't found where the BBC, or any other news agency, have reported that "Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings" but I did find the following while I was looking

It (the EHRC) found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints

Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints

Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears

So, to me, that suggests that the "Day of Shame" refers to how complaints were handled and harassment of those complaining rather than any institutional racism. Once the report has been fully digested I would be interested to see if it suggests that antisemitism in the Labour party is worse than in any other large organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:22 AM

Reading the report is on my to-do list for today, so I won't talk about it directly yet.

Politically, I am sure Boris Johnson and co are heaving a sigh of relief that Covid and Brexit have been driven out of the media. They will be aware how long the papers kept Labour and anti-Semitism in play last time and I am sure they hope they can do so again.

I don't think that will happen. For one thing, the US election will drive Labour off the media in a day or two at most. Then people care more about lockdowns and other things that affect them directly than Labour's troubles.   I am sure come the next PMQ or two Johnson will try to drag this into his answers at every opportunity, but I don't think it has the 'legs' it had before.   A huge lorry queue at Dover, if it happens, is simply more newsworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:39 AM

Thanks, DMcG. I look forward to your analysis.

Interesting quote from Caroline Waters, Interim Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. There have been recent examples of behaviour from politicians of various parties that fall well below the standards we would expect. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. Our recommendations provide a foundation for leaders to make sure that they adhere to equality law and demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion through their words and actions

Can we look forward to an enquiry into the "behaviour from politicians of various parties"?

I doubt it somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:34 AM

I have made a start on the document, but highly recommend everyone interested to read the forward and the executive summary. It is very clearly written and in plain English, and will not take very long. A few highlights:

But, more than that, politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. What politicians say and do matters. Their words and actions send a message about what is acceptable and what is not.
In recent times, there have been examples of behaviour that falls well below the standards we would expect, from politicians of various parties. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. The recommendations in this report provide a foundation to assist all politicians and political leaders in adhering to equality law, while still protecting freedom of expression and engaging in the robust and wide-ranging debate that is a core part of living in a democratic society

.. so yes, this is focused on Labour, but no one should interpret the issue as just about Labour. All parties have, at times, fallen short.


The issue of antisemitism within the Labour Party has been the subject of much scrutiny, most formally with three investigations in 2016, conducted by Baroness Chakrabarti, Baroness Royall and the Home Affairs Select Committee (HASC). Since then, the Party has failed to implement the recommendations made in these reports fully, or to take effective measures to stop antisemitic conduct from taking place. It is regrettable that many of the concerns we raise here were first raised in these reports over four years ago

.. some in the past have regarded Baroness Chakrabarti's report as a whitewash. That is not the ECHR view. But they do say its recommendations have not been implemented adequately.

This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw: • A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders. • In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

Although only a few cases are addressed in this report, there is much more. While some of these are definitely antisemtic, because the people concerned are not employed by Labour, Labour has no legal responsibility for them. That does not make the actions excusable: it is simply the Labour Party is not legally responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:52 AM

Yes, I got that far DMcG. It is also interesting to note that the commission does not address any actual complaints of antisemitism or uphold them. I would have thought that was its job. I do understand that it also looks at procedures for dealing with equality issues and that the Labour party is guilty of not dealing with the complaints properly. It is interesting to note that hours after the report's publication the CAA have issued a 70-odd page list of complaints, dating back many years, against members of the Labour party. All, it seems, from the left wing. I shall not speculate as to the motives behind this or the timing of it but let people draw their own conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.

Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM

UK politics, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM

... irrelevant without a....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM

Not me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM

now now do not be dogmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.

Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM

PFR :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."

As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:13 AM

I'll still continue futiley voting Labour,
for lack of a better alternative to never voting at all...

"Labour - The Hopeles Party for Hope"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM

"s"..

.there it is.. found the litle buger..

I mentioned earlier in the wek
that my keyboard has developed a problem
with double leters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:57 AM

I get totally fed up with factional foot stomping. it is pathetic when the factions threaten to inflict tory vermin on us until they get their way. They are not labour, they are not socialist because all they care about is their own faction having power and authority and they don't give a toss about labour and socialist values.

I was not a supporter of the previous Labour leadership, but I still gave up my time and energy to campaign on behalf of the labour party - and locally we have won every election: Council, GLA, London Mayor, local MP, even the local referendum vote as it was a democratic vote.

Now that leadership has changed as a result of another demographic vote, those who call themselves socialist are throwing their toys out of the pram and almost from day one have proved that they have no loyalty to the labour party at all as all they are interested in is personal power and not giving a toss about our society.

If factional in-fighting screws up the 2024 election, the tories MUST not be allowed to retain power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 09:24 AM

Well in my view an injustice was done to Jeremy Corbyn when he was suspended. Of course, he provided ammunition when he spoke out so quickly in the terms he used, but I repeat: he did not deny antisemitism, he spoke out against antisemitism, he did not say that nothing should be done and what he said was miles away from hate speech. I'll tell you summat for nowt: all through the seventies I was, for my sins, a hard-left trade union activist in the East End of London at a time when trade unions were perceived, incorrectly of course, as having too much clout, to be feared (cheers, media). What I learned then was that if you put two lefties together in a room, there will soon be a split. What I also learned is that all the disingenuous pleading for unity came from the more right-wing faction, every time. And what they really meant, every time, was "drop the argument and do things our way." It doesn't and shouldn't work. It's unprincipled for a start. The right in the Labour Party, go as far back as you like, not only disrespects the true socialism of the left ("because it's bad tactics") but routinely tries to sideline it. As in any political party, the quest for seniority provides grave danger of seeding careerism. Jeremy was a shining example of a principled man who shunned that. Keir has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The only way he can see his ambition sustained is by ditching principle and pandering, pathetically, to the attack dogs behind his back whose antennae for mostly fake antisemitism are sharply tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM

Great post SPB-Cooperator, thanks for that. Party before Personalities - the Golden Rule, understood perfectly by the Tories but not, apparently, by a substantial number of members of the Labour Party.

Get ready for permanent Tory rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 12:51 PM

But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way." A party leadership that thinks that way will forever be the leadership of a split party. Realpolitik.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM

Who'l last longer as leader of their parties, boris or starmer...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM

I left the Labour party in the late 80's. Our branch had selected a candidate to be our prospective MP after a hustings meeting. We were very happy with the way she, above the other candidates, had presented herself.

At our next branch meeting 4 guys arrived from Central office dressed in Crombie's and red scarfs and told us we couldn't have her as our candidate and we should now select another woman who we didn't know, had never met, had never spoken to and who as we found out had never even visited the town she was picked to represent.

We were disgusted at their attitude and several of us resigned on the night, and others resigned later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 02:47 PM

I would have told them to fuck off!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM

bonz - since of late you sem to be drifting further left in some of your posts.
Maybe time for you to aceopt it and join Labour.

There's not enough honest direct resorts to saying "fuck off!!!" in the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 03:05 PM

”But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way."

First of all, I’m not ‘the Right’ Steve, I’m Centre-Left. And it’s the Left who are wanting it ‘totally their way’ judging by the evidence here. People like me are saying, “Stop fighting each other, find centre-ground, and DO YOUR JOB which, you Corbynistas seem to have forgotten, is to FIGHT THE TORY GOVERNMENT.

Party members don’t elect Governments, the voting public do that and, in 2019, the voting public told Corbyn resoundingly to Fuck Off. Anyone with an ounce of dignity and self-respect who had led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory - a defeat by the weakest Tory party led by the weakest Tory leader in living memory and with nothing to offer but a one-issue manifesto - would need no ‘gentle behind the scenes persuasion to retire’. Rather than hanging around shit-stirring he’d have been compelled by his own sense of shame to do it of his own volition the day after the election.

I repeat, as I’ve repeated many times - the Party is far, far bigger than any individual, including Corbyn, and members should get their intransigent heads around that unarguable fact, unite behind the current leader, who was democratically elected by those same members, stop wasting the votes of those of us who demonstrated our trust in Labour at the GE and who were failed disastrously, and start working to free the nation from this self-serving, shameless, shameful bunch of Tory rogues currently raping the United Kingdom.

Until that begins to happen, the LP exists for no reason other than to stimulate its members’ vulgar public display of political onanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 03:24 PM

I'd have thought starmer would have suficient inteligence not to make such a political martyr of Corbyn..

.. unles.. he's doing it deliberately as part of a calculated strategy
to incite mas constructive dismisal from the leftiest members...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 04:07 PM

Corbyn is making a martyr of himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM

Well, John. Starmer, McCluskey, Hodge, Lansman, Ellman and the Board Of Deputies are all making a hell of a lot of noise. One person who isn't making a noise is Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly the martyr style, that, is it? And let me just put this to you. Read the words that Jeremy Corbyn uttered in reaction to the report that basically damned him. Did he deny antisemitism? No he didn't. Did he say that nothing needed to be done? No he didn't. Did he speak intemperately and with hatred? No he didn't. He expressed some disagreement, in measured terms in my opinion, of a report that he regarded had unfairly excoriated him. So was that sufficient to suspend him? If you say no, though he was unwise to open his mouth at that time, your response by any measure is nothing if not fair-minded. If you say yes, you are effectively arguing against free speech, against that treasured concept of Labour being a broad church. You are also conniving in the opportunism that we have seen in the Party on a number of occasions recently aimed at using even the slightest pretext for getting rid of people who you don't like. Not that they've done much wrong, just that you don't like them because they don't fit your agenda. And before you jump down my throat with a litany of "wrong things" that Jeremy has done, just remember that he was suspended, ostensibly, for his form of words as the report was published. Not for anything else, eh? Or was he? And can you honestly say that that's the bandwagon you're not jumping on? It's not Corbyn who's a martyr. Starmer is making a martyr of the party.

As for left and right, my context in these posts has been the Labour Party. Corbyn, the Campaign Group and union representatives such as McCluskey, among others, are on the left of the party. Starmer and most of his cabinet are on the right of the party. There are far harder lefties outside the party than the people I've named and, in the overall scheme of things, Starmer and co are somewhere in the centre of UK politics ("centre-left" is definitely pushing it in my opinion). It's a bit weird really. Most lefties I've known are puffing their chests out with pride when they get called lefties, but, oddly, very few people ever like to be labelled "right." My remarks with regard to Labour are purely in the context of the party. I would have thought that was obvious, but hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:05 PM

And on a slightly whimsical note, Priti Patel, who abused her position in government by making secret unauthorised liaisons with the Israeli regime, and who has now been found guilty of breaching ministerial rules via bullying, is likely to get no more than a slap on the wrist. Jeremy, chucked off the Labour benches. Priti, a cabinet minister and the most powerful woman in government. Jeremy, just a backbencher. Quite a contrast, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 01:39 AM

i agree with Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 07:12 AM

Cheers, Dick.

So Priti was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have breached the ministerial code and bullied her underlings. but Boris, on his own and overnight, before anyone has had a proper chance to see the report, sez Oh no she didn't, so end of, right? (We'll see...)

Jeremy Corbyn was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have not adequately addressed the antisemitism issue. He acknowledged the issue and accepted that more had to be done, but protested, in mild language, that the issue had been exaggerated (and he wasn't exactly in a minority of one in thinking that, was he?). But he was thrown out of the party, and then, when reinstated by a unanimous vote of an NEC committee, was denied the whip.

Compare and contrast. And don't forget to compare and contrast the levels of "media outrage" being generated by each. A budgie might land on Priti's shoulder whilst the hawks will circle over Jeremy's head...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 07:22 AM

I'd rather a seagull shat on her head...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 07:26 AM

...Or a rather athletic one that could shit horizontally right on to that smirk....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 08:14 AM

It is a pity pigs don't fly.....Pottymouth Patel seems to be proud of being xenophobic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 09:02 AM

I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report. But it is being reported differently in the Telegraph.
According to the front page:
"Priti Patel 'unintentionally' breached the ministerial code. . . However, the inquiry also found she had become 'justifiably frustrated' by obstructive mandarins who failed to tell her about the impact of her behaviour."

That seems to be in line with her previous claim that there had been no complaints for her to respond to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 09:12 AM

*Sigh*. Why am I not surprised at that, Nigel?

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 09:27 AM

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...

At the start of the pandemic countries around the world were attempting to source whatever supplies of PPE they could get, and the NHS was suffering through a shortage of such equipment.
Under such circumstances the government were justified in buying what equipment they could, from almost any source.
In better times, when demand does not greatly outstrip supply, you can afford the luxury of selecting your suppliers with greater care.
The same supply and demand rules means that we (as a country) are placing orders for vaccines before they have been thoroughly tested, and from multiple suppliers (10 million here, 40 million there).
Some knowledge of 'market forces' helps people to understand what is happening, and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:53 AM

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...

No, If you would read, and understand, first. "I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

1, I wasn't defending Priti Patel, but pointing out that the report has yet to be published. Until it is then different sources will highlight different parts which may be in the original.
2, It may be possible, with the benefit of hindsight, to show the PPE was sourced from China, but made under unsuitable conditions. But I don't doubt that PPE obtained from other countries (or from UK suppliers) might also have a similar origin. At the time of purchase it was important to get PPE supplies from somewhere, and there was a global shortage.
Would you have preferred that the NHS were told they could have no further PPE until after suppliers (and their whole supply chain) had been given full vetting?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM

What was reported Nigel was:

"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation, concluded that Patel’s approach “amounted to behaviour that can be described as bullying” – noting instances of shouting and swearing – and decided that she had breached the ministerial code, although he said her actions may have been “unintentional”.

So the man in charge of the report quite clearly states her action WERE bullying and had broken the ministerial code but tempered that by saying her actions MAY have been unintentional.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM

I would just point out that being "unintentional" does not excuse breaches of law, and rarely codes of behaviour of any kind. After all, almost anyone could claim a behaviour was unintentional, if that was all it took. But of course, the claim she was unaware of such behaviour bears little weight when Sir Philip Rutnam resigned after accusing her of being involved in a "vicious and orchestrated campaign". Even if she denies it, it would be reasonable if you were accused of it to wonder why people might think you were.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM

From today's Daily Mash.

PRITI Patel has confessed she had no idea that Chinese burns, nutsack drawer-slammings and regular wedgies were what the weak considered ‘bullying’.

The home secretary faces allegations of what civil servants call bullying and she calls ‘robust motivational techniques’, including getting your briefcase thrown onto the roof and swirlies.

She said: “So calling a senior civil servant a four-eyed pisswipe who shags his mum is ‘bullying’ now, is it? Well I didn’t know.

“May I remind you that some of these people insist they are ‘politically neutral’ instead of backing Brexit to the absolute hilt? If that’s not provocation I don’t know what is.

“Yes, perhaps I did flush the occasional lunch down the toilets. Perhaps a few pairs of glasses got stamped on. Perhaps copies of the ministerial code left on my desk, with key passages highlighted, were returned smeared with excrement.

But I am a strong, decisive woman who demands a lot of my employees, and I don’t apologise for that. Now come here. Me and my gang are going to throw you in the bins.”

Conservative MP Eleanor Shaw said: “Priti is not a bully and is a kind, wonderful person. When I hear her coming I definitely do not hide in the toilets.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 12:53 PM

Aha.. "Plausible deniability" rears it's predictable head again
as a flimsy defence for a high ranking tory wrongdoer...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 02:27 PM

From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM
What was reported Nigel was:
"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation . . .

"What was reported" where? and by whom?. (It helps to judge the value of any "quoted" comment)
At least Steve's quote is shown to be from a satirical website.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM

From the actual report Nigel. It is in much of the media.

"“My advice is that the Home Secretary has not consistently met the high standards required by the Ministerial Code of treating her civil servants with consideration and respect. Her approach on occasions has amounted to behaviour that can described as bullying in terms of impact felt by individuals.

To that extent her behaviour has been in breach of the Ministerial Code, even if unintentionally."

You can try and spin it all you want but the facts remain the same. I am appalled that you can even try and defend her.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 03:31 PM

From the Guardian:

However, Sir Philip Rutnam, who resigned as the Home Office’s permanent secretary after accusing Patel of a “vicious and orchestrated briefing campaign” against him, added to the pressure on Patel by challenging a claim in the bullying report that she had been given no feedback about her behaviour by civil servants, and was therefore unaware of the impact.

The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you

 

Read more

“This is not correct,” Rutnam said. “As early as August 2019, the month after her appointment, she was advised that she must not shout and swear at staff. I advised her on a number of further occasions between September 2019 and February 2020 about the need to treat staff with respect, and to make changes to protect health, safety and wellbeing.”

In another remarkable admission, he said he was “at no stage asked to contribute evidence to the Cabinet Office investigation”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM

Doesn't that make her a liar and the investigation a whitewash, or what?

By the way, Nigel, satirical or not, many a true sentiment has been expressed in jest....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 02:05 AM

Steve - that's very true....

There's a despairingly serious subtext
to most of my sarcastic absurdist comments...


They are not just shite jokes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 02:44 AM

i have a suspicion that boris and cruella were ex bed mates, pigs may not fly but they seem to fornicate,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM

ex.. or he still thinks he's in with a chance if he continues 'looking after' her...

If he scratches her back, she might.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 12:34 PM

Following Major and Currie, anything is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM

I was looking at the Kyrgystan tourism website and notice that UK currently has a visa free arrangement by virtue of being an EU member. Have the Foreign Office workers sorted out visa free travel for EVERY country for which EU visa free arrangements currently exist from 1 second past midnight on 1st January, or are they quite happy to face personal retribution form the public for their incompetence if they fail to do so (sort of ironic rant).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM

The Patel saga gets murkier by the day.

In today's Guardian:
====
Boris Johnson’s former adviser on ministerial standards was prevented from interviewing a key witness for his formal bullying inquiry into Priti Patel.

Legal and Whitehall sources have revealed that Sir Alex Allan sought to interview the former top Home Office civil servant Sir Philip Rutnam about his dealings with Patel, but was blocked by government officials.

Allan’s bullying inquiry was launched by the prime minister following the resignation of Rutnam over’s Patel’s alleged behaviour and he is suing the government for constructive dismissal. Sources say Allan was informed he could not interview Rutnam for his independent inquiry because of the legal action.

Allan, however, felt that his inquiry was being denied potentially crucial evidence. The inability of the prime minister’s former ethics adviser to question Rutnam also prompted a “spirited row” within the government’s legal department.

Even so, he uncovered sufficient material to conclude that Patel had broken the code governing ministers’ behaviour.
=====

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 03:37 PM

"I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 03:43 PM

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.

Might it be that as Rutnam is currently suing the government for constructive dismissal, he has an interest in seeing her dismissed which would support his case? As such, his testimony to the tribunal might be biased.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 03:53 PM

But all the Patel apologist tories who are saying that is the case,
are yet again resorting to type
by closing ranks and automatically maliciously blaming the victim...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 03:57 PM

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.

My judgement (not that it would have any effect) is that I have still not seen the report. I have seen quotes about the report, from both sides, but (unless you know of an online full copy) I still have not seen the report.

I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other based on evidence which I haven't seen. Others may not be so scrupulous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:01 PM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM

From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:01
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, Raggy.
Do you have access to the report that you can provide?

No? I thought not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:14 PM

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.
That is another possibility, but a very difficult view to come to without more evidence, which we're not being given.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:40 PM

.. and whose interests are best served by controlling and suppressing
availability of evidence...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 20 - 02:31 PM

Bank of England governor says a "No-Deal" Brexit would cost more than covid

Speaking to MPs on the Commons Treasury committee, he said the fallout from the pandemic and the second national lockdown in England was having a much bigger short-term impact on the economy. However, “the long-term effects, I think, would be larger than the long-term effects of Covid. But … it would be better to have a trade deal, yes, no question about it.”

Nice to know, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 03:01 AM

On this last page alone we have discussed the Labour party divisions, Brexit, government contracts and Priti Patel's bullying behaviour. It really is about time the ridiculous rule about only having one UK politics thread is removed. There has been no acrimony or long running battles in the thread for weeks. The previous problems have been resolved. There are numerous threads about Donald Trump. Come on, Mods. It is about time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Nov 20 - 10:14 AM

the Now Show Radio 4. The closing song (at approx 25:30 mins) by Flo & Jo a tribute to Dolly Parton part funding a vaccine came up with the immortal line:

Not all blondes are bimbos (except the one in number 10).

A tribute with bite. Yea!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 09:44 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw&ab_channel=DoubleDownNews

Definitely worth watching...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM

thanks for that pdf, the most sensible comment i have seen on the question for ages. i can't understand why keir starmer is so keen to attack it. there surely can't be much to be gained by going along with the far right israeli government line. he is just out to appease the daily mail and cause trouble, obviously - but why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 06:21 PM

Jesus, that was powerful. I watched ur. it with tears in my eyes. I suppose that makes me an antisemite...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 20 - 07:12 PM

Delete the ur.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 20 - 06:46 AM

I have been chatting to PFR about Bluetooth ear phones too so took the opportunity to test something using that clip. Yep. Powerful stuff and I agree with every word she says.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 06:27 AM

Well whaddya know? Rishi Sunak's wife is richer than the Queen, and he's failed to declare almost all of this in the official register of ministers' interests, as he should have...
See Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 07:43 AM

Here's the link

Thing is, it will be ignored by Bozzer. He is of the Trump school of thought that this makes Sunak a very clever chacellor...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 10:30 AM

What gets me about this, apart from Dishi Rishi's dishonesty, is the spin. His wife is one of the hundred richest women in Britain. His wife is richer than the Queen.

But hang on a minute...

Where I come from, when you're MARRIED to someone, and they're rich, and as long as it's a proper marriage an' all that and not some shady arrangement, then if she's very very rich then he's just as very very rich... What's mine is thine an' all that...

For richer for poorer....

What am I missing here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 01:00 PM

I think you are missing a tenet of the Tory creed, Steve.

What's yours is mine and what's mine is my own.

Presuming the latest Mrs S is of the same political persuasion as her hubby, he has no chance of getting his hands on her cash. He will continue to rob the poor to give to the rich instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 02:19 PM

WARNING WARNING - SHIFTY TW@T ALERT...!!!!!

Nadhim Zahawi appointed as vaccine rollout minister


Well.. that inspires confidence...

Every time I've seen him interviewed on the news,
he's evasive, waffling, repetitive, nervously uncomfortably squirming and sweating;

Looks like you've just caught him red handed rummaging through your underwear drawer..

Yeah.. top choice appointment to such a serious responsibility...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM

Couldn't agree more, pfr. As soon as I heard the news I clasped my hand to my head (which wasn't as aching as usual, as, well, it is Saturday night and well past Prosecc-o'clock...)

Can't wait to hear that we've got the "capacity" to vaccinate twenty million, but, so far, as of late Feb, we've managed a couple of hundred in Surbiton... and that millions of vaccines are "lost in the post" (my old mum's excuse for not sending me a birthday card...) Maybe that bloke down the pub in Mark Hancock's village, you know, the guy who makes paper coffee cups, will manage at least a few hundred glass vials by then... Anyone know a good glass-blower??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 02:29 AM

what a cock up,i despair, and why a 70 percent vacinr instead of a 95 per cent , is it because its cheaper

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 04:01 AM

You can add to that the proposal that the 'Winter Plan' now looks like it will be coming to end at the start of February rather than end of March, at which point the MPs will be able to vote on something to replace it.

Who cares if we have a pandemic to control? Let's keep promising to end our plans for no better reason than keeping Tory MPs on side. (The bills are likely to pass anyway with Labour support, but that's embarrassing for Johnson.)

If you recall, the only reason the lockdown is ending on 2nd December was because Johnson had to promise it would end then to placate the backbenchers. It was obvious something would have to replace it, but that's a problem for another day: concentrate on getting the lockdown vote through.

This is exactly the same strategy: promise it is ending but don't give a thought to what comes after.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 10:21 AM

In London Yesterday

Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days and allowed to go home once they have paid for and got a negative test in order to safeguard their communities?

I am looking forward to the government making a legally binding announcement that their will be no further restrictions if, because of their behaviour, their is a spike in the number of infections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 10:34 AM

All of those bare-faced protesters are pretty alarming. No attempt to distance, no masks dangling around their necks ready to put on in close situations. Even just people with their noses out of their masks defeat the entire purpose of the mask, they might as well not have one on. It's difficult to shame them into compliance, and I'm sure it is the influence of Trump's bellicose behavior that has emboldened others around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM

All the worst damaging political shit Britain is enduring has ideological origins,
funding, and string pulling,
from alt right America..

We have too many influential fake British patriots in Govt, mainstream and social media,
deviously selling us out to their USA pay masters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM

Now it seems that Sunak's hedge-fund missus has been involved in companies that channel investments through Mauritius in order to avoid taxes payable in India. "Well, that's entirely your own business, dear..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 20 - 05:56 AM

Not saying our PM is a poor judge of character..

.. but..

If Jimmy Saville were still breathing,
boris would probably appoint him as special adviser to Hospitals and Schools...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Nov 20 - 02:33 PM

Nah, it would be child protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 20 - 01:43 AM

This just popped up on my youtube feed...

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgwCoxZ03yLox8xeRit4AaABCQ

"Sky News
11 hours ago
A backlash over a council's plan to spend £100,000 on the unveiling of a Margaret Thatcher statue
has prompted more than 1,000 people to promise they will turn up at an "egg throwing contest" on the same day..."

https://news.sky.com/story/margaret-thatcher-statue-more-than-1-000-vow-to-attend-egg-throwing-contest-at-unveiling-amid-backlash-12147303

[clicky wont work..]

"Margaret Thatcher statue: More than 1,000 vow to attend 'egg throwing contest' at unveiling amid backlash
The £300,000 bronze statue will be placed on a 10ft-high plinth to prevent vandalism...."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 20 - 02:53 PM

if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing.
Whethet the intention of governments is to control people for the sake of controllling , i do not know, does anyone else know, do yiu know spb co operator, no of course you do not.
but you are developing alarming totalitarian tendencies, however a lot of controlling is occurring, i wear masks in supermarkets ,but none of us know how effective they are, i think social distancing is more important,
i have noticed how this is being used to divide people against another ,people haranguing others for not wearing masks, divide and rule again, some people behaving in over the top aggressive attitudes to others for not wearing masks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Dec 20 - 03:44 PM

It isn't totalitarianism, it is care for myself, the people I love, my friends and my community. it is not so much whether or not people should be forced to look after their own safety, and if they have a death wish, that is their own choice. However, thus was a case where people protesting were not practicing social distancing, and when they go into their workplace the next working day, can their employers guarantee that they have not picked up an infection they are bringing to work, Can the school teachers guarantee the same about the protestors' children?

Nobody enjoys the restrictions, and in my view the government have twice waited until the horse have bolted before closing the stable door.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 20 - 03:47 PM

Now I may be wrong but if people are demonstrating about wearing masks I don't think they are going to be too bothered about social distancing.

Just my tuppence worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 01:40 AM

STEVE how effective are masks,just answer the question/
QUOTE SPB
Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE OF A TOTALITARIAN
you are making an assumption that they have covid 19.
RAGGY TASH,you are making a sweeping statemrent that all those protestors are the same and have exactly the same opinions, that is as wide of the mark as suggesting that all people who wear masks feel the same way about it.
however i have witnessed people who choose not to wear masks being verbally abused in supermarkets , that is out of order. and is an example of governments getting people to turn on each other divide and rule, i have also seen people wearing masks not giving social distance to others
one person wearing a mask had the audacity to brush me while trying to get to the hand sanitiser. some people wear a mask and seem to forget about social distancing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM

The science is dead simple and summarised by round about the only good three word catchphrase this government had come up with. Hands. Face. Space. A combination of all three will help to reduce the spread and everyone should comply. Apart from anyone with genuine medical issues, those purposely flouting those rules are simply knobheads. Those abusing people for not wearing masks are not much better but at least they are not dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 03:09 AM

but at least they are not dangerous. quote
but what if they fart, can they still spread the virus whilst wearing a mask? i was in a supermarket and someone did a really smelly one, and nobody knew who it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 03:22 AM

i am not extracting the urine , but there appears to be medical disagreement on tthe dangers of passing wind and the virus in public

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 03:28 AM

but, dave, that pillock that brushed up against me wearing a mask to get at the hand sanitiser was possibly dangerous, he touched me unnecsssarily, not just a pillock but a knobhead

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM

Yep, absolutely, Dick. Hands. Face>. Space.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 03:36 AM

Just a thought on those who spout freedom of choice.

Wonder if they would be happy if I chose to walk round with no pants and shit on the pavement?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 04:09 AM

they spout freedom of choice not to wear a mask they are not asking to shit on the pavement,
now i do not mind them not wearing a mask if they keep their distance, but people who wear a mask but come close and touch me imo are more dangerous., particularly ironic as he was trying to get to the hand sanitiser
as for you mooning ,
you dont have the figure for it and as for shitting on the pavement it is against the law.
this is the situation in ireland
When must I wear a face covering?
Public transport

You must wear a face covering while using public transport.

If you have a reasonable excuse to not wear a face covering, you should tell the driver or inspector. Read ‘Exceptions’ below for information on reasonable excuses.

Drivers of a public transport vehicle do not have to wear a face covering if they are:

    Alone in a compartment
    Separated from passengers by a screen
    In the vehicle but there are no passengers getting on or off
the people who were demonstrating against wearing a mask were outside.
that is not breaking the law however if they were demonstrating but not social distancing that is different,
but spb insisting that they should be told to self isolate is behaving in a totalitarian manner
he knows nothing about them but assumes they are working and have children.
meanwhile schools remain open in the uk and it is not compulsory to wear masks
Schools and colleges will have the discretion to require face coverings in indoor communal areas where social distancing cannot be safely managed if they believe that it is right in their particular circumstances
why are schools open ,
bloody stupid, they could catch up with their education with a extra months ion the summer , which would mean that by then vaccination would have been rolled out. meanwhile schoolteachers are being put at risk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 04:33 AM

Yea, ok, shitting on the pavement may be a bit extreme but it they are spouting freedom to not wear masks, what about my freedom to not wear pants?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM

well that is against the law too, its called indecent exposure, i am guessing you mean naked, when you say not wearing pants , not wearing trousers and not underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 04:41 AM

and you are free to got to a nudist camp and dingle your dongle as long as you dont dingle your dongles and get too close, but there are probably no nudist camps open, or m,aybe y0u can wear a mask over your john thomas, try doing that in your local supermarket thats proibably ok if you have amask over your face and a willy warmer over your tresticles and bjollocks , try it out and let me know

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 05:09 AM

Telling me I must wear pants is totalitarian!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM

no, its the law, you can be fined for indecent exposure ,it is not breaking the law to make outdoor protests provide you socially distance , it is totalitarian for steve to insist that they all isolate when he does not know anything about them.or whether they are covid free
it interests me to spot potential controllers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:24 AM

Looks like the UK will get the vaccine before the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM

Not so Dick, I didn't make any assumptions I responded to your statement:

"if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing."

If anyone was making an assumption it was you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM

Viruses are carried in moisture droplet, not methane emissions. Underwear and trousers serve the purpose of **** coverings as masks do as face coverings.

The idea of mass interment is of course ironic, but taking into account the almost certain evidence that the crowds at the football match in Liverpool and the horse races at Cheltenham made the first wave worse than it could have been, gathering in crowds to protest and not wearing face coverings or socially distancing while doing so is irresponsible and has a potential public health risk. The real issues is that the more people someone who is infected comes in contact with, the greater the rate of reinfection. That isn't politics, it is mathematics.

I don't have problems if people want to put themselves at risk, as long as they don't expect help when things go pear-shaped for them - talk to anyone who does mountain rescue as a volunteer or for a living, or RNLI/Coastguard who have to rescue holidaymakers from inflatable toy dinghies. I am concern about people who are cavalier about putting other people at risk.

Restrictions are horrible, but they won't go away while mobs of people flout them just because they don't like being told to take responsibility. Also, if we had a government that faced up to its public health responsivities in a timely manner, then this discussion probably wouldn't even be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:55 AM

You're a lucky man if you have both tresticles and bjollocks, Dick. Good luck finding a willy warmer man enough to do the job...

I was in the pub and a bloke sidled up to me at the bar, saying, Hey mate, between you and me we have five bollocks. Why, said I, have you only got the one?

I'm not a mask dissenter or an anti-mask campaigner, and I wear them where required at all times, but, loud and proud, I say that masks are probably more bad than good when I see the misuse they are routinely put to. Wot a lot of people don't realise, when they feel all safe behind their masks and forget all about social distancing, is that not all viruses are inside big sneezy drops that get trapped in the fabric, that virus particles are virtually non-filterable, and that mask wearers who constantly fiddle with the damn things, which is an awful lot of them, probably have a lot more virus on their hands than people who don't wear masks. Yet mask wearing is compulsory whereas hand-washing isn't. You couldn't make it up. Let's stick to the law this time but determine NEVER to let a government control us in this way ever again. Saw a good tweet yesterday which said that I'm not allowed to go to my mum's for tea in her house yet I can have my minge waxed by a total stranger...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 07:41 AM

Using hand sanitisers whenever I pass one helps with that problem - even if it does dry the skin on my hands. My better half has a bigger problem because of eczema from skin allergies. (does anyone know why we say exma and not exzeema - decades of lazy speaking?). Surely the answer in favour of masks is that if we cough on someone, the droplets have a much higher viral load than if we breath on someone. I still find it ridiculous when people still spout on about masks being impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide. Maybe they are using polythene masks???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 07:59 AM

then dont cough on anyone use your hand, its easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM

That's fine if you don't touch things that other people will touch after.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM

i wont be touching you

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 12:41 PM

..a year of covid is tending to bring out the inner conspiracy theorist rebel nutter
in even the previously most sensible folks...

However, all the pre-covid nutters are now completely nucking futs...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM

Maybe this bloke got it right.

And Dick, maybe you should stop telling people to use their hand. People may think you're an expert at it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 01:20 PM

I've never tried nuckin' a fut, but when I was younger I did enjoy muffin' the mule...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 02:03 PM

We were in The Sportsman at Hayfield and saw they had duck muffin on the menu. You can imagine the conversation.

They did have the classic three plaster ducks on the wall and we wondered if they had already been muffed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 02:04 PM

Oh, and 400!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

Looks like crashing out is inevitable. Why am I not surprised.

An economist interviewed on the news said food will likely to be more expensive and not as readily available. Got to look at the bright side I suppose though. Dishwashers will be cheaper.

I hope all those who were fooled by Boris's Bus and Farage's Frauds will be happy washing all those dishes that have not had any food on them :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM

Possibly, Dave, but I am prepared to wait a few more days to see how things turn out. If a deal is proposed, there is then the UK Parliament and the EU gauntlets to run. So things don't look good, but we will see soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM

There are bound to be a few problems as it will take a while to settle down. It will be a few years before we are able to tell if we are better off or not.i don't think we will be but time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK...!!!????? [Wtff for more sensitive folks...]

Not seen this reported on any BBC news...

Labour Suspends Prominent Jewish Activist For Defending Jeremy Corbyn


If this hadn't just turned up on my random youtube feed,
I'd be none the wiser...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM

Watching an American Public Broadcasting television article about Brexit using the term "Hard Brexit" multiple times.

Some good comments from a British economist including the following cautions regarding Hard Brexit long term fallout:

a smaller England with essentially constricted borders
the Good Friday agreement threatened
diplomatic ill feelings between Europe and the U.K., uncertainty with U.S. relations.

A point that was new to me but probably not to many of you was that the Europeans have a need to not let the U.K. look like it got a great deal, because then further exits become more attractive. And I suppose that U.K. has an interest in keeping Scotland aboard while all this is happening as well.

And I believe many of you feel that Boris favors a Hard Brexit anyway.

Canada and Quebec take notice!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM

Unfortunately, Robomatic, many favoured a hard Brexit. Trouble is that they believe this means that the UK will keep all the benefits of being in Europe, be able to keep out Johnny Foreigner and, once again, rule the waves. Boris convinced them that he could achieve this. They believed him. Boris may be the worst prime minister we have ever had but, as a con man, he has no equal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Or to put it less dramatically, all of the costs due to disruption during the few years Rain Dog mentions have to be recovered before you can even think of being better off. If, for example, during that time a long term contract comes up and because of the disruption it goes to another country as supplier, it may be decades before it comes up again so the business concerned (and hence to some extent the UK) is disadvantaged for all that period.

I thought Zoe Williams described it quite well in a recent article

So there emerged two discrete, parallel contexts for the discussion: one completely abstract, in which democracy must be upheld and sovereignty restored; the other completely concrete: who do you sell herring to if you don’t want to eat it, and where on earth do you have an Irish border? Never able to knit those two spheres back together, we had instead this jarring dualism, where we’d talk grace notes in Westminster (take control of our money, borders and laws!), and car plant closures outside Westminster, and those discussions never progressed since they were never informed by one another.

Whether the country thrives or not depends on the concrete: the herrings, the cars, the sheep exports, the services provided and so on. Sovereignty is only really relevant (in trade) to the extent it affects those.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM

yes PFR thankyou for that video clip.
mean while Hillary Benn is very quiet is he watching which way the wind is blowing, IS HE waiting for Starmer to destroy himself

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM

i am sure that not everybody who voted leave, voted for a hard brexit some [i think ] were under the impression that there were options like norway or canada or switzerland , there should be another clearer referendum, this is an important issue and people should know exactly what they are voting for

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM

It'll not be too surprising if a significant number of the 60,000 and rising covid fatalities,
voted yes for brexit...

..that'd take a chunk out of the miniscule majority
looking forward so enthusiastically to leaving the EU..


My sense of humour is too dark sometimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Good argument which could be applied to those in Calais looking to make a risky crossing of the channel.
For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM

Definitely, Nigel. There are those who prepared to let the country take the risks or bear the costs. I would say, though, I see a significant reluctance on their part to elaborate how severe those risks or costs are. Even what they mean by 'short term' is very hard to pin down when they use it phrases like like 'disruption in the short term'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM

..great metaphor..

..a lot of 'em are already dropping dead from disease,
before they even crawl into the punctured leaky rubber dinghies
attempting to cross the treacherous river brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

Brexit River will turn out to be a creek for most people.Nigel Farage , Boris and a few others will be able paddle their way out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM

Nigel,

I am thinking of taking up archery as a hobby, and I require you to put an apple on your head so I can have a go at sharpshooting. As I have no practice - I last did archery at school in 1978 - I am aware of the risks if I am an inch or two out with my aim. But you need to fully accept those risks.

No ifs, no butts (pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum. They were not accepted by the majority of voters then, and I doubt if they would be now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM

Stop trying to delude yourself - and us. Control is shared by the 28 states, and the bigger your state the more say you have. As one of the biggest states we had plenty of say, including the possibility of vetos over many major proposals. There is no European army because we said no, for example. That doesn't amount to "little or no control" in my book. The fact is, Nigel, that the UK willingly joined the consensus over changes to regulations and EU law almost all the time - because you can't get bad laws past all 28 states. The EU is about consensus, not control. Which is not to say that grievous mistakes, over Greece for example, can't be made...

"As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum."

But it's OK for you to trot out the lies that fooled millions into voting brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM

Nigel, had we have remained in the EU and our standard of living had taken a dive due to that, I would have happily joined you in castigating the EU.

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out. It has been pointed out that there will be tough times ahead and even the most ardent Brexiteer has now accepted that.

Until such a time as the losses we will suffer are recovered and we have surpassed our current standard of living I will continue to lay the blame at your door. If it ever happens that we make up for economic, social and cultural losses and then surpass our existing standards you are welcome to say "I told you so". I shall not be holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out

Oh, I am sure no blame will be put on that if there is any remote chance of blaming covid-19 instead.

Yes, covid-19 will hit hard. That does not mean Brexit is not a factor if we have problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave. In fact, had it not been for the time and energy wasted on the farcical handling of Brexit I am convinced that we would have been better equipped to handle the virus. So that is also Nigel's fault ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave

Indeed, but surprisingly recently in some respects. It was still possible in 2009 for an MP to be shamed for buying a Mars Bar on expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

much as i agree, there looks like a massive cock up , it is uncalled for to say that it is nigels fault. Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM

As much as we enjoy friendly bickering banter with our mudcat mate Nigel,
we do know it wasn't only him wot dunnit..

Obviously he has far too many guilty accomplices for us to include them all by name individually..

That just wouldn't be practical..

So we'll just have to settle for acknowledging Nigel,
who is friendly enough to talk to us,
and the known named leaders of the anti political he is an active member of...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM

oops.. that last sentence somehow got scrambled between proof reading and submitting...


"and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM

So, Dick, who is going to take responsibility for Brexit? Choices are all well and good, as was the power given in the referendum. But with the power to make choices for the entire population comes great responsibilty. Someone needs to accept that responsibility and as Nigel is the only one on Mudcat espousing the benefits of Brexit we can only assume he accepts that responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM

and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

There seems to be a few members of that group.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM

Cameron should take responsibilty, he took the political gamble.,, then to a lesser extent Farage and Johnson
being rude to another mudcat member who supports brexit does not help political discussion or solve anything,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM

If Nigel thinks anyone here is being rude to him,
presumably he's tough enough to tell us himself...???

It's a bit like when Ake popped up today [before his post was deleted]
to lecture us on what Nick Dow [or Mr Dow, as Ake smarmily referred to him] was really trying to say..

My polite reply to him was:

"Since you appear to have developed mind reading powers since we last met,
that could come in very handy...

Though I'm sure Mr Dow is more tha capable of talking for himself,
rather than have you voice his inner thoughts on his behalf...???"...

Anyway..

Brexit last minute drama deadline negotiations..

what a pathetic farce...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM

Dick, I'm not being rude to Nigel. I am saying that because he voted for Brexit it is his fault we are leaving the EU. Ok, I know there were many more who voted the same but as he choses to be their voice on here he is accepting the responsibility. As to helping political discussion or solving anything. Really? Do you think that an obscure minority music forum has ever helped to solve any of the world's political issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM

I agree. Nigel is quite capable of defending himself if he wishes. Equally, he is quite entitled not to get into an argument if that is his preference.

Blame and responsibility are subtly different. We all have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions, and should not object to being asked to account for them (though we are entitled to ignore the request.) So it is fair to expect people to take responsibility for how they voted. If they agreed that some disruption might occur, for example, then if it does they should be willing to say they accepted and still accept that as part of the necessary price.

Blame, though, is harder. I anticipate hearing quite a few Brexiteers saying over the next year that the problem was all in how it was implemented: A no-deal Brexit, for example, could have been decided at the start of the transition, giving every business a year or more to adapt to address any disadvantages and ready themselves to take advantage of any benefits. It would have given time to recruit border staff, implement and test IT systems and all the rest. This is an argument familiar from the previous decade about whether communism was 'never properly tried'. While I think no-deal a dreadful outcome, I can see some merit in that argument. If you were going to end up in no-deal, there were better paths to get there, and those choices were made by governments, not voters.

Equally if you are aiming for a deal, you had many alternatives. Using some of the conventional game theory labels, you could have played the stag hunt, rather than chicken.   We opted for chicken, which typically has the most extreme outcomes - you tend to win big or lose big. Guess where we look as if we are heading?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM

previous decade
I meant 'previous century'. How time flies!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM

There are of course 2 sides involved in these negotiations. The EU were not happy with the decision for us to leave but once the decision was made they let us get on with it.BUT they are.mindful of the fact that they will not want to make it look to other members, that leaving the EU "might" appear not to involve too many negatives.Some other EU members may well be waiting to see how we get on once things settle down. We are living in uncertain times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM

ridiculous, Cameron is the person who is responsible he gave the refendum, why not blame jeremy corbyn or trump

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM

how about blaming denis skinner? he was anti europe, however he was not in a posituion to grant a referendum, nor was corbyn nor was trump nor was nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:30 AM

I doubt if any of them have even heard of Mudcat, Dick. I do blame Cameron for caving in to the right wing populists but he is not here. Anyone who voted leave has joint responsibility for causing this chaos and at least one of them is here to read my complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:56 AM

And at least that blame (if it is right) can be spread a long way. More than half the voting public voted to leave the EU. That will spread that blame extremely thinly.
Also there is the matter of Barnier originally saying that he would only offer the UK the same terms as Canada, but then, apparently, withdrawing that option. Where does the blame for that lie? I would suggest that some of it lies with the BBC and the remain camp. They seem to have convinced the EU that, if the EU held its nerve, and didn't offer a good deal, then the referendum would be overturned. While we still had Theresa May that might have come true. But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.
If we leave on WTO terms (called 'no deal' by some) then we are out, and negotiations can re-start in earnest, with the EU negotiating from a totally different position.
France look as if they want to scupper any deal, and insist that the EU must not give in on fisheries, hence the attempt to get an 80/20 split. If we leave on WTO terms then the UK regains full cotrol of our coastal waters, and France will be looking to increase from zero%. A totally different position.
I would like to see UK get a good deal, but still feel that " 'No deal' is better than a bad deal".
We will know within three weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM

Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:41 AM

And here we are with 3 weeks to go.
Get ready for Brexit the government tells us. Well it would be helpful if someone told us what the regulations will be on the 1st of Jan.
Get ready for Brexit the EU tells their member states. Well it would be helpful if someone told EU companies if they will have to pay tariffs on their imports from the Uk or if their exports to the UK will be liable to tariffs.
Some negotiations huh? Some negotiators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM

"Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half."

Neither is 43.35% but then it was a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.

Can you elaborate on that Nigel? As far as I can see, both sides are still playing chicken and nothing has changed in that respect. Being prepared to pay the cost of losing is part of the game. There is a list of the standard 'game theory' games here, and to mind 'Chicken' is still the best fit. Which do you think is better?

Personally, I think the game was initiated when David Davis was saying all the UK needed to do was stick to its demands and the EU would give in at the last minute, which is as textbook an example of 'chicken' as you could hope for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:59 AM

Where does the blame for that lie?

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM

"From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM
Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory..."

Steve, when will you understand that "the voting public" means the public who vote. Recreating the figures to include people who were entitled to vote but didn't, or (as you have tried in the past) to show the number who voted leave as a percentage of the total population, is to misquote the figures.

(roughly) of those who voted 52% voted leave, and 48% remain.
If you must reduce the 52% to 38% by choosing a different 'whole' then the number voting remain must also be reduced (to 48%*38/52). The relationship between the two figures will still remain 58/42.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.
And had you, and others, not voted remain the decision to leave would have been unanimous, and the attempts to thwart Brexit would never have arisen.
Alternate history lies in the precinct of Science Fiction. It does not necessarily make for a good discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM

The "attempts to thwart Brexit" would never have arisen if the vote had been remain. There are situations that are more likely than others and remaining in the EU would have been far more predictable than the leap into the dark we are currently engaged in. Don't be silly Nigel, it doesn't become you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM

As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?). Had you said "electorate" you'd have been obliged to qualify your "more than half" claim too, and, incidentally, reported the result more honestly. You chose a way of putting it that avoided the need to admit that only 38% of the electorate (and I too could just as easily have said the more vague "voting public" there too...) are taking us out of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

Poor old covid going to get the blame for post brexit hardships...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

And that doesn't take into account the 20+% of under 18s who will be most seriously impacted and had no say whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM

Nice of the Independent to remind us of this:

Now seems as good a time as any to crack out this report from June 2019 when the then Tory leadership frontrunner, one Boris Johnson, claimed the odds of a no-deal Brexit were “a million-to-one against”.

At the time, he said:

It is absolutely vital that we prepare for a no-deal Brexit if we are going to get a deal. But I don’t think that is where we are going to end up – I think it is a million-to-one against – but it is vital that we prepare.



One in a million, eh?   Wonder how we got here, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM

Are you suggesting that we lower the voting age then Dave?

Unfortunately it is the younger generation who will be paying the cost incurred due to covid. We will have to wait and see what costs/changes they will have to deal with due to Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:18 PM

Yeah.. and how many of the slender majority of brexiteers
will have snuffed it by the time the divorce is finalised...???

Hands up who's still alive and wanting to leave...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:42 PM

Exactly pfr. I always ask those who are 63 and over"how did you vote in 1975? See what it has led to?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:51 PM

Not at all Rain Dog. But someone should have looked after the best interests of our children and grandchildren. Plunging into the unknown is not in their best interests and those who voted to do so were quite simply selfish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 PM

Do you honestly believe that Dave? Every single person who voted for Brexit was selfish?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM

We're all selfish.. it's a necessity for survival..

Just that some folks are massively far more selfish than others...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:10 PM

Yes pfr and it is always the 'others' who are more selfish than 'us'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:52 PM

.. not necessarily..

There may be objective psychological measurements of levels of selfishness,
but even if not;
most of us have keen judgment of character
earned from decades of experience
coping with extremely selfish bastards...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM

I dont believe they all were Rain Dog. I do believe that enough people were selfish enough to tip the balance though. The trouble is that their self interests were fuelled by the lies told about the influx of "foreigners ruining our country".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:32 PM

I thought I'd posted this already. People voted brexit because they were ignorant, deluded and very easily taken in. If you could have said in 2016 that you wouldn't get health care any more on your trip to Benidorm/Palma/Ibiza, that you will have to queue for hours at passport control, that your food is going to cost more in 2021, that your pound will scarcely buy a Euro even if the EU lets us go there at all, even if your cheap holiday company hasn't collapsed...that our economy will shrink so much that you can forget pay rises to cover these extra costs...we wouldn't even be sniffing brexit at all, would we? But you believed a pack of lies... in a few months' time I could be indulging in schadefreude - except that I'll be in the same shite that you've dropped yourself in...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM

SchadeNfreude

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM

If who could have said? I have said before that there was no debate before the vote
No one had details of what terms we would be leaving on. They didn't know then and they still don't know now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM

This made me laugh when I read it in our local paper today.

From our MP

"Our area is no stranger to traffic congestion from time to time. The operational plans will continue to adapt over the coming weeks and months, as they have in the past, so that the right balance between the needs of the port and residents can be struck.

I am committed to the economic success of our area. The continuing success of the port will create further jobs, new businesses and investment.

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:31 PM

The only people guaranteed to benefit from brexit
are [mainly] foreigners with vested interests in destabilizing Britain and the rest of Europe...

Farage knows that all too well..

He'll be amply rewarded for his treachery..

[though, perhaps not quite as much as he'd hoped for if trump had won a second term...]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:05 PM

"If who could have said?" I was speaking hypothetically, mate...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 11:28 PM

Loser remoaners will believe any lefty fake news bullshite lies..

Billionaire Brexiteer Moves Car Production To EU


What he is doing is so clearly for the benefit of Britain,
but it's far too complicated for tiny remoaner brains to understand.
So just shut, up and put up with a little short term risk.
Boris is in control and will deliver the best deal for Britain...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:56 AM

It makes me sick that the EU are putting the interests of scum like Johnson, fsgarse and mogg before that of 68 million people by failing to guarantee that we retain 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership. Of course Barnier isn't going to risk losing his massive payouts from billionaire oligarchs to do everything he can to undermine European cohesion, is he.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:31 AM

i have heard somwe bullshit in my time ,i find it hilarious that boris is talking about australian type rules for trade he makes it sound like a sporting game , well its feckin not and furthermore australia have been trying to improve their "australian rules" trading terms for the last couple of years. boris reminds me of an overweight bertie wooster

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether." quote
hilarious are they going to be bringing in cannabis from morrocco

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:05 AM

Steve:
I know that you have problems comprehending honest English, but:
As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?).
If I had said "Of those who voted" and I would still have said 52%.
It is your attempt to spin the figures which is disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:07 AM

Well, this is nice:

The former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull says his country’s trade deal with the EU is ‘not one Britain would want, frankly.

Fairly obviously, given they have been trying to negotiate a closer agreement for years. But I imagine No-Dealers will just close their ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU. And if we mention that embarrassing statistic, all you can do is bleat that it was the democratic will of the people (or something like), sidestepping the fact that the referendum was the single most undemocratic thing that has happened in this country for many a decade, superseded only now by the same blond buffoon who can't even count his own children telling us that we can't, under pain of legal sanction, go to our mums' houses for a cup of tea or sit with them in their care homes...

Incidentally, had I jumped in first with "voting public" (to mean "electorate"), I'd have been beyond reproach. "More than half of those who voted" = honest. "More than half of the voting public" = bare-faced Tory brexiteer spin...

I don't suppose "more than half of the having-voted public" would be elegant enough for you. And I won't even mention the quasi-populist inclusion of "the public" in all this brexiteer-speak...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 07:51 AM

No need fannying about with boring stats and numbers.. it's the will of the british people, remember...

= all of us..

That's far easier for tunnel-visioned brexiteers to push ahead on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 09:51 AM

Unwilling to admit that you got it wrong again Steve? Never mind.

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU.
I'm quite happy to accept that "62% of the electorate did Not vote to leave the EU"
Of course, the converse is that 65% of the electorate did NOT vote to remain part of the EU!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 09:56 AM

Johnson is now saying a No-Deal is very very likely.

It is mildly amusing that in The Avengers films one of the characters examine 14,000,065 paths only one of which let to success, whereas Johnson thought there were a million paths only one of which led to failure as he defined it (ie not getting a deal).

Naturally, Johnson found the one he defined as failure.

Somehow, I don't think The Avengers will be be inviting him to join the team.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM

His secret identity is boris,
but as an inept super hero, he valiantly fights truth and justice as "Cock-up Man"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM

Out of those who did not vote:

(1) People are more likely to take the trouble to vote on a populist outcome than to vote for the status quo. Many people mistakenly assumed that remain would win (even faridge made that assumption when the polls closed) and felt that that did not need to come out on what was foul weather.

(2) Of those who were disenfranchised, the majority (EU nationals living in UK and people who are now under 24) fell within the demographic that overwhelmingly voted remain.

(3) The leave campaign failed to PROMISE ending the right of UK nationals to live/work/study/retire in UK. Faridge lied when he suggested that UK could follow the Norway (EEA/EFTA) model when he knew that the tory party had no intention whatsoever of doing so.

(4) The remain campaign was conducted appallingly by the party leaderships. Labour failed to effectively campaign on a national level, but where Labour campaigned effectively locally, this resulted in 71% vote (in the constituency where I live) to remain. Because Labour were quiet on a national level many associated remain with Cameron and Osbourne who in industrial areas were blamed for austerity.   

(5) The fact based campaign which focussed on the (now proven) impact of leaving was dismissed as project fear, but not a single promise for the leave campaign has come to fruition. Where are all the Turkish people we have been promised????

(6) Substantial leave campaigning focus upon pandering to racists who saw the referendum as a vote for legitimacy of their vile views. eg fariges 'Breaking Point' billboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM

Boris's last minute deadline deal negotiations..

.. and we all thought pantomimes had been cancelled this xmas...


The EU top negotiators thought they were meeting Boris to negotiate a deal..

Boris thought he'd been invited on a hot overnight dinner date with a saucy foreign totty...

We're the only ones who'll end up f@cked...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM

Apparently the latest wheeze is to allocate 4 naval ships to protect the fishing waters around the UK in the event of a no-deal.

A quick Google search suggests there are 7,300 EU fishing vessels, so I suspect 4 will have a hard time controlling that lot. Then how will they control them? A seizure or sinking will be a massive escalation, and I don't think the EU would just sit quietly by. Much less, and in the context of 7300 is is just a minor irritation. If the EU were to impose any kind of sanction in retaliation for a stronger action, we should remember - since it seems to be so easily forgotten - that the Republic of Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland is not, so that would affect the GFA border. And what would Biden think of that?

Silly grandstanding. I hope there are still some wiser heads around to council against such escalation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM

The nonsense continues.

DMcG are you seriously suggesting that the EU should fish in UK waters illegally in the event of a no deal Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM

I am saying threatening sending warships for a trade dispute is not very smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:22 PM

... especially as your opening gambit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:25 PM

Most of us landlubbers with any sense don't care about fishing disputes..

There are far more important concerns in life to be coping with..


I'd also expect most fish don't give a shit which nation catches them to near extinction...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:09 PM

Add together the fishing sector and the agricultural sector and they add up to less than 1% of our GDP. The denizens of both sectors cheerfully voted overwhelmingly for brexit. Both sectors have been environmental disasters. Vandalistic wouldn't be too strong a word. My sympathies lie solidly elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:11 PM

Rain Dog. Just because little s***s like Johnson whine that something is illegal, doesn't make it illegal. And if Johnson wants to waste money on Naval patrol, then it must be 100% paid for through a poll tax levied on fishing communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 05:23 PM

I live in a town that used to boast, 50 years ago, a fishing fleet.

It Then employed a very small minority of the people.

Today that fishing fleet has, to all intents and purposes, gone.

Nationally the fishing industry creates 1 tenth of 1 percent of the Gross National Product.

Now I understand for that 1 tenth of 1 percent of the people the industry is VERY important,

However in the great schemes of things, to most people, it barely registers apart from the jingoism that surrounds it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:21 PM

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new. It is only a small part in the scheme of things but trade agreements are built on small things.

We might well be heading for a no deal exit but no doubt some deals will be made at a later date,at least I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:53 PM

I hope so too. But can you see the trade deals being as good as the ones we had? And it's not just good trade deals we are swapping for pie in the sky "sovereignty" . We are giving up years of cultural, scientific and policing cooperation. For what? To build closer ties with a now deposed madman on the other side of the Atlantic?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 07:32 PM

Humouring the insane is a dangerous game.
The rules of organized chaos are full of sound and fury signifying
a falsely placed obediance.
As long as you choose law in the short run, remember this,
crazy laws have a life time too and eventually die. Some from old age and some by murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 08:28 PM

When we are restricted to just one thread, it's bloody annoying to have a yank who spouts utter shite getting his oar in. Frankly, Donuel, and as ever, you have nothing useful to say. So you know what I might suggest you do. It involves your bottom...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 04:58 AM

I came across this when I was looking up something entirely unconnected on wiki:

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Maybe I've misread history. I thought Britain (and allies) were fighting for a 'free' Europe, and Germany were fighting for a 'unified' Europe.
Doubtless an oversimplification, but so was Mendes' comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:16 AM

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new.

Certainly they do. And there are few disputes because most of them have been in place for many decades or even centuries. The two sides have reached an accommodation that - more or less - works.

Before we joined the the EU (and its predecessor) we had such an accommodation with France and the other countries that fished in the Channel and North Sea. It was not just a case of "its the UK's and no-one else gets a look in."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:19 AM

What you misread, or misinterpreted, was the sentiment in Mendes' comment. There is no conflict therein.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:22 AM

There is no conflict therein.
So who was fighting for a "free and unified Europe"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:25 AM

An interesting fact apropos of fishing: over half of our fishing quota is now in the hands of the Netherlands, Spain and Iceland, sold off to them by our fishing industry...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:42 AM

So, what will happen when one of the four warships confronts a Dutch, Spanish or Icelandic fishing boat?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM

Your difficulty, Nigel, is that you think "unified" means "one big country." It doesn't. Since well before the referendum I've been arguing for a unified Europe, but one in which I desperately want to have 28 sovereign nations all keeping their distinctive national attributes, operating their own laws and their own form of democracy but with the same ground rules of human rights and the rule of law. 28 nations cooperating for the greater good of all, and among which war is next to impossible. Unified that way, and I'm certain that that is the sentiment in Sir Sam's remark. Naturally, as you are in vehement opposition to his point of view, you will do what Nigel does, try to pick holes. Nice try but no cigar. Not even a fag end, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:45 AM

Play safe and just torpedo the Russian ones instead, Jos. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 05:54 AM

The Russian ones are not trawling for fish though :-)

Someone else can grab 500

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:09 AM

'll grab the 500, but it is very selfish of me because I don't have any emotional attachment to round numbers - it is just another number in the integer set...

Reminds me of daughter-of-mine at the millennium sounding off that is was just a completely arbitrary boundary of no inherent significance whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM

It was so arbitrary that there was no general agreement as to when it actually was!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 07:25 AM

DMcG's daughter sounds smarter than some of you codgers, at least in polynomial time. Having an answer is not intelligence as much as having the wisdom to know which questions to ask. IQ is second to EQ or QQ in my book. Be that as it may, Steve, eat some Bran. You seem too full of yourself, as usual. :^}

I have steadfast hope that your UK politics are more sensible than American politics. As criminal conspiracies go I think America is #1.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 07:28 AM

Did Johnson's Poor Behaviour Cost Brexit Breakthrough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:08 AM

Almost certainly, the man is an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM

I'm surprised at you Bonzo, I am sure I am not alone in thinking that you voted for his party and thus allowed him to become PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:29 AM

Give bonz some credit..
he might be a tory, but he's always slagged off dickhead boris...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM

That doesn’t absolve him, it damns him even further. Who in their right mind would vote for a dickhead?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:08 PM

BWM - errmmm.. we might have our own dilemma with that,
if starmer is still Labour leader by the next elections...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:48 PM

Johnson or Starmer....hmmmmm, that’s a difficult one, innit? Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:50 PM

Yeah.. but it's a bit like asking which colour of shit
do you want topping your ice cream cornet...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM

But knowing our luck, Margaret Hodge may even have seized leadership by then...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory. I’m still hoping to live long enough to see a Labour government once more - I’m grown-up enough to realise it may not happen with Starmer in charge, but there’ll be SFA chance if the Party’s lumbered with Corbyn again.

Although, in contradiction of my criticism of Bonzo’s voting choice, I did vote Labour at the GE, even though I had absolutely no faith in the Leader. It’s called ‘Party-Loyalty’ or, put another way, ‘Putting Party Before Personality’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:27 PM

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory, how about james callaghan
quote living memory, what utter bolocks.. how about 1983? backwoodsman youare a master of bullshit1979 general election – 5.3% swing from Labour to Conservative
2010 general election – 5.1% swing from Labour to Conservativ
Boris Johnson delivered the biggest electoral win to the Conservatives since Margaret Thatcher in 1987,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM

I wasn't a Corbynite..

I've never been keen on 'cult of personality'..

I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM

“I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???”

Ha, sorry pfr, it’s Saturday night, FA on Telly, idling my time away on my iPad, bored shitless, I allowed myself the luxury of a bit of chain-yanking! Mea Culpa!

Those are my thoughts exactly. Although, like you, I’m not sure that Starmer’s the right man for the job, but I’m sure that he’s far more acceptable to the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

the person who is dividing the labour party now is Starmer, politically naive and incompetent,the easy way to have got rid of corbyn was make him a peer.Starmer is an idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM

I still can't help suspecting an organised influx of tories
paid the minimal fee to vote Corbyn in as Labour leader...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:12 PM

And I can’t help thinking you could be right, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

I joined the labour party again when Corbyn became leader as did many other left wing minded people, i personally know many folk enthusiasts and performers who did so, none of us are tories,
i have subsequently left the labour party because of starmers political idiocy, PFR you talk uninformed twaddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

...Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics




Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

...PFR you talk uninformed twaddle

What's this, Dick? Do as I say, not as I do? Or does it just depend who is being uncivil?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 04:25 AM

no it is uniformed twaddler , that is not a personal attack it is a fact ,he has no stats to back his statement up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM

I have proven your hypocrisy, Dick. No need for me to go any further as others can now see what you are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:14 AM

I did NOT vote for johnson, I voted for our excellent MP Chris Philp. The other 2 labour MPs for Croydon Central and North are useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:35 AM

hypocrisy? Cameron was responsible for brexit, without a referndum there would have been no vote
When i refer to PFR STATEMENT I am being polite, if i wanted to be rude i would call him a flamer or a troll, but i am being polite.
so i wont call him that, if i had been the silver tongued late departed MGM
i would have called him a vacuous booby, but i try to be a good boy and be polite, like teachers pet, so i restrain myself and say it is uniformed twaddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:40 AM

you see a personal attack or being rude relates to insulting the person not confirming that what they said was uninformed, and therfore twaddle : silly idle talk : drivel. b : something insignificant or worthless according to the dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:06 AM

I would have thought that saying someone is talking uninformed twaddle counted as 'genteel conversation' in the middle a political thread.

Why not take PFR's idea and run with it. Even with the drop in membership since Starmer took over from Corbyn, the Labour party has more members than the Conservatives, SNP and Lib Dems combined. It could afford to send a few over to swamp the Tories and get a Prime Minister more acceptable to them, albeit* the wrong political colour.


DC

*that bit was for Steve ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:08 AM

here is some evidence that conservative remainers are wait for it, quote
Observer Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence thatConservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:10 AM

Have you nothing better to do Sandman???????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:12 AM

It did not go unnoticed, Doug, though I was initially more interested in the posts prior to yours. Things like that happen to me on a daily basis...However, at this moment in time I have to plan my trip to Morrison's as I have cooking to do, going forward. If you will...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:14 AM

Billy Connelly is Infinitely more entertaining!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 08:04 AM

Whatevet, Dick. Same reply to your PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM

Dementure, Dick? Are you saying that he has crazy false teeth? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

Spelling is irrelevant, he's bloody funny!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.
If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:47 AM

He's just being his usual dreadful finger in the ear self!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:58 AM

I can't be arsed reading Dick's petty grudge nonsenses yet..

maybe later...

However in the meantime consider this..

tory party has fewer members, but it has international backers with far more financial clout..

Labour membership vote fee was how much per person,
and how carefully vetted was each new voter...???

Corbyn's proposal for candidate, was a surprise gift for the left..

and an even bigger spoiler opportunity for the well funded tory right...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:20 AM

punk folk rocker, a closed mind .
well if you read them you would see that there are stats to back up the fact conservative voters are switching to keir starmer, you have a closed mind.
bad news for bonzoObserver Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence that Conservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

They will have been the same thousands that travelled all over the country singing Corbyns name.were they conservative infiltrators? what ridiculous twaddle from punk folk rocker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM

“so good, he posted it twice...” :-)

Party members don’t elect their party to government. Voters in General Elections do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:39 AM

Bonzo take note and answer Bckwoodsmans, you elected boris johnson
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:42 AM

yes posted twice.
so that when Punk, opens his eyes he will see the irony of his ridiculous assertion that conservative infiltrators joined the labour party to elect corbyn.
what utter twaddle and unsubstantiated twaddle to boot

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:49 AM

it would appear that the conservatives won the last election because there was an electoral pact between farage and the conservatives, furthermore, backwoodsman
you made a statement that you cannot substantiate that corbyn lost the election by the biggest majority in living memory, more unsubstantiated twaddle, both you and punk talk twaddle, check your facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM

"If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)"

Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:20 AM

Take more water with it, Dick, or better still lay off it altogether - it’s making you very nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM

Dick's off on one of his obsessive episodes today..

No amount of rational persuasion will deter him from
willfully misconstruing my actual intended meaning..

His blinkers are yet again set to narrowest tunnel vision...

This was bound to happen when he carries grudges over from earlier in the week...

I should have joined the Labour party as an active member decades ago,
but he is a prime example of what I'd get too frustrated and annoyed dealing with..

I have low patience threshold for needy self indulgent petty egos..

My old mates in the local party are far more tolerant of the dysfunctional 'care in the community'
element of their fellow membership...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:27 AM

Dick - Anyone who cares about what you are best at - music,
would wish you'd spend more of your spare time and energy
updating your youtube channel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM

”Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.”

I thought that’s the condition he has too, Steve. We saw Billy at Sheffield City Hall a few years ago, just before his illness was made public, he was hilarious as usual, but we both commented that he seemed to ‘have summat up’, there were moments when he was clearly having difficulty recalling ‘the next bit’ in his routine. We commented that we thought it might be the last time we see him touring, and so it proved to be.

His swearing might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it doesn’t bother us - we hear far worse in our local market place and shopping mall - but his observations of human behaviour, and his ability to find the humour in human frailty, are brilliant AFAWAC. Others’ may have a different view, and that’s OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:47 AM

You can have both, and Parkinson's in its latter stages can lead to dementia. But they are distinctive conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 12:10 PM

My mum has dementia, but not even all dementias are the same.
My mum's is a specific type..
..but I can't remember what it's called..

It's all very complex to diagnose..

Here amongst mudcat's aging membership,
we have to stay aware and sympathetic.;
no matter how odd or annoying other mudcatters may become..

A healthy sense of humour is paramount...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 12:21 PM

"Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it. "

What???????????????????????? I voted Conservative and am very very proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 12:45 PM

So you voted for the Party and, by virtue of voting for the Party of which he’s leader, you voted for Johnson. Thus my original point, and also the one you quote above, still stand.

BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:25 PM

where are your stats backwoodsman and punk to back up your twaddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM

Dick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:30 PM

Quite so, pfr...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM

Dick - where is your imagination to comprehend hypothetical ideas

beyond your restricted over-literal limits of understanding...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM

Pfr, let him bleat and flap around. This is a discussion forum, not a court. It’s perfectly legitimate to state an opinion, and there is no compunction on anyone to ‘prove’ their opinion. They are what they are - opinions - nothing else.

The sensible majority understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 01:59 PM

BWM - absolutely, he constantly makes himself look a right pompous buffoon,

every time he demands imperiously that other mudcatters must prove things to him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:07 PM

However, just to set the record straight...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50765773?app=news.election.2019.story.50765773.page

From the above link...

”Labour, which has lost seats across the North, Midlands and Wales in places which backed Brexit in 2016, is facing its worst defeat since 1935.

I wasn’t born in 1935 so ‘in living memory’ works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:07 PM

I'm losing track of this...

I'm still a member of the union I joined almost 50 years ago. In the earlier times I got in trouble with the Gen Sec (Fred Jarvis) for trying to organise unofficial strikes. I got two very threatening letters from him in the mid-70s. My best union mate was Blair Peach, but his murder in 1979 knocked the stuffing out of me and I just stayed active but not an activist. He was a member of the SWP in the days when they were a real revolution party, but I didn't hold with that and I didn't join. He was the nicest, kindest and gentlest man you could wish to meet, but he was the very divil in union meetings and he never let go of his socialist principles, living his life as you'd fully expect a true socialist to live. He was also a superb teacher of children with special needs. I've always been far to the left of the union establishment but I'll die a member. I had to bite my lip when it came to my fellow teachers joining more docile and right-wing unions, but I could scarcely tolerate working with people who refused to join a union at all, and they knew it. The union movement allowed Thatcher to demolish what I saw as real trade unionism, and my view has always been that the working class in this country has been treated much the worse in consequence. We've ended up with what weasel Tories call "the flexible labour market": temporary, part-time, seasonal, sack-you-at-will, zero-hours, fake apprenticeships, rock-bottom pay, gangmasters...

I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. He is of the left, he is unspun and he is a man of principle. After the 2017 election, in which he did incredibly well, he was perceived by the Tory populist right as a threat. So, for the next couple of years, he was unscrupulously targeted big-time, both from within his own party (all those disaffected Blairites and Brownites, not to speak of that disreputable bunch of sour-faced, lying antisemitism-accusers) and without, the Board Of Deputies (who no-one ever voted for) and the scumbags of the tabloids. Why, the actual Tory Party hardly had to do a thing. You guys who keep bleating on that Jeremy was "unelectable" always fail to qualify that by admitting that even the Angel bloody Gabriel would have been "unelectable" in the face of that onslaught. The campaign against him was unscrupulous and concerted, positively conspiratorial, and predicated on lies. I'm staying in the party, though I'm rock-solid certain that Starmer is a born follower, a born caver-in and a born loser. That's just me. Thanks for reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:22 PM

Steve - no.. thank you.. that was a bloody good read...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:29 PM

"BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make."

It is of no consequence to me!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:54 PM

Steve I ought to clarify..

When I was taking the piss out of the 'care in the community' element of my local Labour party members,

..it's not referring to politics [ie, left or right of the party], but personalities..

Bloody awkward time and energy draining self important people with psychological 'issues'..

Labour, being a compassionate inclusive fraternity, seems to attract a lot of 'em..

Then mix that with cider and waccy baccy.. it's a nightmare putting up with them..

I've never had sufficient patience.

Maybe, it's just worse in the south west towns I grew up in...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:10 PM

Well I've seen similar things down yer in Bude, where the local Labour Party is currently tearing itself to bits (and it isn't exactly over-populated...). Once it becomes ashes maybe I'll supply the phoenix, but at the moment I really can't be arsed with it. Folk music seems at times to be the same sort of magnet... But my mum and dad, rest 'em now, were both Labour Party people and even as an early teen I was out there taking numbers for the canvassers at the polling station and having tea and butties at the party HQ (a terraced house in Wolseley Street). My dad and his mate were Labour councillors in our home town. It was unthinkable to not be in a trade union. Labour may not be in a good place but at least I'm in the tent pissing out and not outside pissing in. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to...

Just remembered...Phoenix....That was the name of the special school (as we called 'em then) at Mile End where Blair Peach worked. The kids there all loved Blair to bits, and they came to his funeral, along with 22000 others... we all sang the Internationale...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:19 PM

pfr Please stop telling me what to do.
i have spent the last five hours working on a festival completion grant form. i had to this in 2019 and now have to do it all over again.
do you organise anything, probably not, you have no idea of the work that goes in to providing music and gigs for people
well kindly do not tell me what to do, and kindly stop calling me names

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:32 PM

Ye gods...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM

Steve - as I was saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:04 PM

It's at times like this I can appreciate the logic of limiting these threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 08:16 PM

Do that, Dave, and you might not hear the rest of me life story...Bejaysus, this Mozzers five-quid Nero d'Avola ain't half bad... Did I tell you that I've actually been to Avola... and that me mum for ten years ran the best chippy in Radcliffe...and that I bashed the spuds for her (well underage) for seven and a tanner a week...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 01:24 AM

The BBC can predict what they like before the election ..they were wrong it was not the worst defeat since 1935, check your facts you still have not provided any proof or stats to back up your comment. a bbc prediction before an election is not proof.
punk there is no evidence whatsoever that the labour party was infiltrated by conservatives to elect jeremy corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 03:32 AM

I may be going into yer actual mozzers later this week, Steve. They have cocked up big time on staff discount for retired employees and it seems my discount card can only be used in store currently. If it's not sorted out soon expect to see a news story about mozzers forcing pensioners to risk going in store ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 03:57 AM

Sand - if and when you fall off your high horse,
you'll have been up there so long,
you'll land neck deep in a mound of horse shit...

You are behaving even more erratic and unstable than usual..

I'm laughing my bollocks off that you are still so crankily triggered
by a tongue in cheek suggestion of tory vote rigging to select Corbyn..

Calm down, before you do yourself a mischief..

[btw.. as conspiracy theories go,
there is actually more plausibility thousands of tories paid the affordable fee to vote for jezza..]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM

This isn’t a court, pfr. Nobody has to ‘prove’ anything here, except in the mind of a lonely trouble-maker and troll. Ignore him and let him continue making a fool of himself - he’ll eventually get tired of it and start working on some other victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 06:15 AM

tongue in cheek, perhaps you should have made that clear, uniformed twaddle and the same from back woodsman.
the tronblemakers are the people who put up provocative statements punk does it all the time then we have you talking garbage about election defeats , check your facts. you call me lonely
you know nothing about me.
I am far from lonely.
throughout the pandemic i have been be making live music with friends.
doing zoom gigs etc
doing outside gigs. regular music with friends
you really talk uninformed twaddle . ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,
I am also lucky to live in ireland where trad music is appreciated every night i can hear two to 3 hours of good music on radio

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM

And this is Brexit & other UK political topics because?

Just continuing the previous hypocrisy as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:05 AM

”ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,”

Oh, the delicious irony! Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:13 AM

I suggest a course of Billy Joe Shaver!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:19 AM

So the EU now sees a deal as possible. It says the UK has made a key concession:

Barnier said Downing Street now accepted the principle that as either side develops their environmental, social and labour standards over time there should be a way to ensure that trade flows are not distorted by the failure of the other to reciprocate. He described the solution as “unilateral measures”, or tariffs, which would probably be applied after a period of arbitration.


I think that is key to any deal. Boris can claim a success because the UK is not automatically bound to EU changes. Equeally the EU ican claim a success in saying it can impose tariffs. Both sides being able to claim a success is very useful in negotiations.

Now the EU does not like this idea on fishing:


The UK has now suggested that pelagic fish are removed from any deal with Brussels and that shares are instead negotiated through the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission, of which Iceland and Norway are members. Pelagic fish refers to species that swim closer to the surface and accounts for approximately 80% of the value of fish caught by EU fleet.


However, even the the EU is unhappy, that hides an important UK concession: the UK would not be the sole arbiter of who can catch what fish. So this "UK waters are for the UK" has grown more subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 11:10 AM

"you should have made that clear"

Dick - no.. you should read other members posts calmly, in good humour,
and when necessary with imagination,
without filtering every word through your own resentments..

Most vital though, you need to show some reasonable self control,
and respect for mudcat community.

You are just only one of a diverse membership of equals.
You may be a good folk artist and festival organiser,
but that does not grant you any special privileges.

How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..

You are by no means pretty or famous enough to get away with such persistent outrageous diva behaviour..

It is you who creates a trail of disruptive rancour
in just about every thread you inflict yourself upon...

So ffs lighten up...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 02:07 AM

Sandman - I have deleted your PM without opening it . DO NOT PM ME. I have no interest in any of your childish idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:08 AM

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM

I’d be interested to know too, Dave! I know BJS is/was a Country singer, but his relevance here is completely lost on me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:03 AM

Backwoodsman punkfolk rocker
Tha còmhradh y0ur a ’cur mo chuimhne orwells newspeak CÉARD IOMLÁN NA mBALLAÍ

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:14 AM

Illegitimes non carborundum, chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM

Barking dogs seldom bite.
Defintion of Backwoodsman, According to dictionary ,pleas note not mt opinion
North American
an inhabitant of backwoods, especially one regarded as uncouth or backward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?

A course of Billy Joe Shaver (RIP) songs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM

OK. :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 07:26 AM

Dick - ok so you are bi-lingual in complete bollox - so what..

I am going to ignore you in this thread until/unless you get back on topic,
and post relevant sensible contributions to the debate.

We are after all more or less on the same side against the tories.

I trust we can resume fairly good humoured amicable tolerant interaction as mudcat mates,
sooner rather than later..

That's up to you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM

so saying Corbyn was voted elected as leader of the labour party by conservatives is reasonable sensible debate? or was it a joke? you cannot have it both ways. if iy was a joke then its ok for you to make childish idiotic jokes, but everyone else has to make sensible debate
to quote yourself
How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..
so its ok for you to vaingloroiusly insist that others account for themselves and debate sensibly, but not yourself. you are a booby who talks twaddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM

Dick -

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM

?????? ???? ??? ??

kutta bhonk raha hai

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM

Don't know what Kutta BHONK raha rai means but in Hindi Kutta BHOK raha rai means I am afraid according to my good lady who speaks the language.

Perhaps he meant kutta bhag raha rai which translates (Iam told) as I am being bored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM

You are just arguing and for arguments sake and purposely being obstreperous, Dick. You know you are on thin ice here anyway. Why risk plunging into the cold?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 01:08 PM

Raggy - whatever he is, he has similar disruptive attention-seeking behaviour issues
as the most problematic 5-year olds my wife teaches...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM

Dick, if they aren't playing the way you want to play then go find a different thread to participate in. Don't start a new one, that won't fly. Just find something else to do. And the rest of you could pull up your socks and just ignore Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM

Hey, include me out of that admonishment, Maggie! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM

I am intending to get vaccinated as soon as possible,while i have a good immune system, i feel it would be unfair on the vulnerable in the community to pass on a virus which could possibly result in another persons death, undoubtedly there are people out there who muight regard this as idiotic, i am assuming vaccination prevents the passing on of covid 19.
i am not an expert on the subject , but i am sure there are experts who regularly contribute to this thread, who know about the dangers and the safety of the vaccines

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM

Would have been better in the coronavirus thread, Dick. Incidentally, as things stand that isn't a safe assumption. The vaccine preventing illness is one thing. Killing off the virus if it gets in your body, so that you can't spread it, is an entirely other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM

There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:35 AM

jos, well that is a good reason for getting vaccinated i would have thought. . i wanted to hear from the people who contribute to this thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM

”There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.”

Jos, that’s pretty much my layman’s understanding of vaccination, and seems a good reason to get it when it becomes available for my age-group/health situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:27 AM

Vaccines work by promoting antibody reaction in the body, just as catching the disease does. Whilst we are still in the short-term, the fact that there have been extremely few documented cases of catching it more than once (and you don't necessarily have to believe every single one, as some people just love to be special), it seems that immunity lasts at least for a good few months, if not longer. Another thing is that the vaccines appear to promote a stronger immune response than catching the disease. The issue of what exactly the vaccine does or doesn't do is something that applies to many, if not most or all, vaccines. We can't carry on living life in that worrying way. Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

That’s my policy. Thanks Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

Mine is to have the vaccine, but not really to relax somewhat. That will only come when the level of vaccinated people is above perhaps 50% or we find the vaccine does significantly reduce the likelihood you are a carrier. (Which my best guess it that it will, but let's await evidence.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:18 AM

I'm between 60 and 65..

A kinda no mans land waiting room...

It's going to be a very anxious over cautious long time in the queue for my vaccine,
while the tories are forcing my 'over 50s' wife
to teach potentially increasingly infectious school kids every working day...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:46 AM

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" that has been established for measles and other diseases. That discussion is making the rounds now in the US - how many vaccinated before the social distancing requirements and such can expire.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM

It seems sensible to me to keep social-distancing, hand-washing, and mask-wearing (sorry Steve, I’m a belt, braces and pieces of string below the knees kinda guy!) even after vaccination. I’m 73 and diabetic, and I’m taking no chances.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" ....

I agree, Silly, and it may be more of a problem in the US than the UK (but it could be bad enough here): What do you do if you can get to 50-60% vaccination and then cannot really increase the level further because of anti-vaxxers and the like? Also, it is important to remember that there is probably 5-10% who can't take the vaccine even if they want to, like those with immune system problems.

I would certainly prefer us to get to maybe 70% before relaxing at all, but if the resistance to people taking the vaccine is high enough, I might have to relax before that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:20 PM

Both you and Maggie haven't quite got this right. Herd immunity for measles requires at least 92 in every hundred people to be immune. We've had outbreaks in the UK when the number has dropped into the 80s. Fortunately, immunity is long-lived. The threshold for flu is much lower. For certain childhood diseases, such as whooping cough, the overall population threshold isn't a great way of looking at it: it's far more important that children and young parents have the highest percentages, as they overwhelmingly are the children's most frequent contacts. Another factor is that herd immunity can diminish over a short time if (as we might suspect for coronavirus, though we don't yet know) immunity is short-lived or lost as people age with a consequent weakening of their immune system. I wouldn't be hanging your hopes on that 70% number if I were you. That's about the median figure of the estimates, but that figure may well be confounded by interventions such as lockdowns and shielding, both of which, for very good reasons, artificially keep the transmission rate down, thereby extending the time it will take for herd immunity to kick in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM

I am not relying on the 70% figure, Steve. Back in March, according the oracle that is "The Daily Mail" Sir Patrick Vallance said around 60 per cent of the population will need to catch the virus to build up a national tolerance strong enough to stop the virus circulating. I am sure I could find similar reporting from other papers. but that is the one that came up first. It may be 60%. It may be 70%, it may be 93%, or 43%: we really have very little way of knowing yet. Until we have at least one substantial community with widespread infection or vaccination you are essentially trying to estimate where a curve 'flattens off' while you are still on a piece with a high gradient.

But I was really trying to make a different point. It was if you need to have a certain level to achieve herd immunity, what do you do when, for whatever reason, you cannot get to that percentage? That will require a judgement call at some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:34 PM

Unfortunately, we can't rely on flattening or plummeting curves to predict herd immunity: we had both in the summer, remember. Assuming that immunity lasts at least a few months once you've had the virus (unsafe, but hey), and that the vaccine stalls transmission as well as preventing illness (unsafe, but hey), and that restrictions help to keep the reinfection rate low (more likely than not but not settled science), we could see a sharp tailing-off of cases in the next few months. I'm up for hanging on to that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 03:03 AM

That's a somewhat different thing, Steve. It is a bit like the difference between sin(x) and sin^-1(x). We would not trying to work out what the herd immunity threshold (HIT) is from the R, as we have to at the moment, where

HIT= 1 - 1/R₀

That is really difficult because R₀ has to be estimated from all the local R values which vary across the country and are affected by policies like tiers and lockdowns. That reciprocal also means quite a small change in the R value can have a large change in the HIT, which is why we cannot be very certain what the range of the percentage for herd immunity is.

Rather, we are working from the opposite end: given we have a certain level of immunity (via infections and vaccines), what effect is that having on R?

It is admittedly a little over 40 years since I worked on this sort of stuff, but as far as I can tell the fundamental modelling hasn't changed that much.   In those days we had to model essentially a population and now the modelling is more based on large numbers of interacting populations, so that adds a lot of variation and sophistication I haven't worked with at all, but the heart of modelling does seem to be similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM

You just need to ensure that you mingle with the right herd.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 09:28 AM

We are still dealing with a mass of uncertainties here. Other factors, of which we know not a lot, are the longevity of the virus in the environment, and how "catching" it is (to be a bit less technical than you). We need mass vaccination and we need to be bloody tough on vaccine refusers. The herd immunity calculations can come later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

however not avoiding paying tax ensures that the government cannot afford to pay nurses more money, there is a shortage of nurses right now paying more money to nurses might ensure less people die,   Croydon DOG WITH 3 LEGS think he is giving helpful advice, but his tax advice is entirely for selfish people, typical of the present conservative administration.
why is NHS underfunded, not enough tax payers money, undoubtedly i will be called a childish idiot by the usual suspects,but what i am advocating is patriotic in the best sense of the word

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 02:52 AM

then there is the owner of the daily mail, viscount harmsworth, a tax exile, he is responsible indirectly along with people who show how to avoid tax, for the underfunding of the nhs and the lack of nurses.it is like long distance manslaughter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 09:21 PM

Brexit: The Teabag Analogy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM

thats very good robomatic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 12:56 PM

Did anyone else hear Bozzer on the box yesterday saying this government had always followed medical advice? Maybe I imagined it. Surely not even he could lie so blatantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 02:27 AM

now the squit has really hit the fan , anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 03:04 AM

dave i dont think boris know the differnce between lies and truth, is it possible he is a psychopath

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM

anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk

I don't think anyone in the general public does yet, Sandman. All we know is that it is easier to catch (which means its R value is much higher, which means it will double in much less time.) But beyond that, there is little information.

I feel unhappily confident that a national lockdown will be needed by the end of January at the latest. Although France and other countries are saying the halt of lorries etc is for 48 hours I very much doubt it. The 48 hours is merely to work out what to do and will be followed by a longer blockade either in total or for less essential goods. So we might find foodstuffs, for example, much less readily available than we are used to.

Moreover, I expect such blockades to spread. Other countries do not want the new strain, and I think many will take similar actions on passenger flights, for example. Goods are rather less of an issue simply because fewer people are moving into and out of the UK.

The essential difference between New Zealand, Asia and much of the rest of the southern hemisphere when compared to the UK and the rest of Europe, is that they took it very seriously on day 1 and we did not. I get the impression Europe is attempting to learn that lesson with the new strain. Whether they can do so effectively while the old strain is still active is another matter, but it looks like they are trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM

While I am sure that what they say about the new variant being more virulent is true, I am not convinced that it is the sole cause of rapid spread in London and the SE. They have known about the mutation since September and it is already elsewhere in the UK. Surely keeping the area in tier 2 when it was obvious more restrictions were warranted has a lot to do with it. Keeping London out of lockdown was a political decision and now that has come to bite them on the bum they are looking for excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM

Just a minor correction to that Dave, since one of the scientists I was   listening to made the same slip and then carefully corrected himself: the new strain is not technically more virulent (as far as we know) because that refers to how damaging it is when you get it. It is, however, more easily transmitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM

Thanks, Dave. Better coming from you than Nigel ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 12:02 PM

My ambitions are not so lofty!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM

Boris: We are having Christmas. It would be inhuman not to.

Scientists: We can't really, the NHS would melt down in January.

Boris: Oh, shit. How can I back out now then?

Scientists: Well, there is a new varient that transmits quicker..

Boris: Yes, yes! We'll use that excuse.

Political advisers: Errrr, we are not sure that is a good id....

Boris: Course it is. I can't see anything wrong with it. Sorry nation.?? I have had news. We have a super spreading virus and have to shut everything.

Macron: Is that right, Boris?

Boris: Yes, it is. We are sooooo contagious I had no choice but to cancel Christmas.

Macron (and the rest of the EU): In that case we have to shut all our borders.

Boris: oh fu....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:22 AM

So supposedly the deal is done and we will be told something about it in about 50 minutes time. That means now is a good time for rash predictions!

Kipling advised that when meeting Triumph and Disaster to treat those two imposters just the same. I am sure that will apply here. Some will proclaim a great Triumph - not least Boris! - but many more will denounce it as a betrayal, notably Farage and a good proportion of the ERG. Their protests will count for nothing in the short term, since Starmer will whip Labour to vote for it. (He *might* risk a free vote, but I think it extremely unlikely.)

Starmer's speeches in Parliament will all be about how poor a deal it is, how it sells the country short and is almost the worst possible outcome. But no-deal is worse, and that is why he will support the deal. It is a tricky stance, but gives him the best positioning for potential supporters, whether they voted Leave or Remain.

So I don't see the UK voting against the deal.

There is a possibility, maybe even quite a large probability, of an EU country using their veto to stop the deal, but this will largely be posturing to make a political point, and perhaps get more funding from the rest of the EU; I think all the EU states will agree before the year is out.

The deal is actually about trade and security. Of the two, I think the security is more important, but I expect the media to concentrate on the trade aspect. Not that trade is unimportant, but I think any hiatus would be addressed much more quickly than a breakdown in the security relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 03:24 AM

Don't know about Brexit. Here in Dover we are just waiting for Mendit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM

what is it like in dover tell us

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 08:22 AM

Bloody awful. The town is gridlocked with cross channel traffic. Makes it very difficult for vehicles to make their way around town.

26 French firefighters along with 10,000 test kits, arrived early today to help with the backlog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM

God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal. I've just put up with Johnson lying in his teeth about how we've taken back control, etc. We have not. We will abide by EU regulations or suffer if we stray from them. We've lost so much and gained next to nothing. Or nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM

”God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal”

Because the alternative- No Deal - is simply too dreadful to contemplate? Because, as usual, Johnson had left it until the last minute so that he could claim it’s the best deal available, there was no alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM

Boris's heritage - the man who achieved Brexit. And destroyed the United Kingdom.

Should have stuck with Have I Got News for You.

Boris the Bald, very soon now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM

We could and should have had a deal months ago. Both sides have a share of the blame for that. Hopefully it will be accepted by all the parties. Of course it would be nice to have some details. The devil is in the detail.

Meanwhile, the police have finally managed to restore some order to the traffic in Dover. Port traffic queuing in just one lane of the one way system, allowing town traffic to move. Still lots queuing on the A20 route into town plus all those at Manston airfield.

Rumours are that the French firemen who arrived to help with testing were seen with fishing rods. You have to keep an eye on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 04:03 PM

This morning while waiting for the 'expected' deal to be announced,
I had to nip to the bathroom..

While standing in front of the bog, I let out a squeaky little two tone fart
which surprised me,
because it sounded like my arse just whispered "brex-it"...!!!

Is this an omen...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 06:48 PM

all the best to all the peace campaigners, care workers, homeless, trade unionists, refugees, community activists, environmentalists and tireless anti-racists who keep positivity and hope alive. and, obviously, f**k the rest of you eejits, every one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 07:06 PM

pfr, you just channeled Catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 03:55 AM

and nobody lived happily ever after

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 04:40 AM

i think crbyn would have done better, however i have only looked superficially, , but it could be a lot worse, has the whole thing been a storm in a teacup.
border at northern ireland ports that is good, from an irish perspective it could be much worse

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 06:20 AM

And a merrie Christemas!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 07:08 AM

I think the line "peace on earth and good will to all men" needs an airing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:38 AM

At least Brexit has made the UK think more about globalism and how to apply it or not on a case by case basis. Overall its been a pain in the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 02:59 AM

Ave we got are cuntry back yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 03:46 AM

no your country is owned by the multinationals and the land owning aristocracy including the church of england

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM

Provoked by someone I heard on Broadcasting House this morning (as I always like to own up to being unoriginal), I'd say that when you hear what a great trade deal we've achieved, it's worth remembering that in order to get it we had to ditch a much better trade deal, the one called "being a member of the EU."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 09:01 AM

"i think crbyn would have done better"

And for your next joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:01 AM

Good opinion piece from Will Hutton in The Observer

Yes, it is opinion. It also happens to be mainly true. The opening shot is particularly painful

The dream is over. On New Year’s Day, the curtain comes down on Britain’s long engagement with Europe’s noblest and greatest effort at collaboration and liberty. Our freedoms are to be slashed and an immense bureaucracy imposed on us. Next Friday Britons will lose the freedom to live, work, and trade in goods and services as they choose throughout the EU. Once natural rights are to be torched.

I can do little but shake my head in disbelief and curse those who brought us to this :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:06 PM

Yeah but Mr Will Hutton,apart from that things are not to bad.

It will be a good few years before we will be able to judge if we are better or worse for leaving the EU. I thought maybe 5 years but now it will probably be longer due to the huge financial problems as a result of covid.

I voted to remain and I have never been convinced that there are going to be huge financial benefits to our leaving. We will have to see once things settle down.

Yet again he cannot let the vote go. The many ways in which people like to count it.Labour let that genie out of the bottle in 1975, not forgetting that we nearly always end up with a government which the majority of the country have not voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:26 PM

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:28 PM

A bit like how we ended up with brexit then, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 01:28 PM

I'd have been less suspicious of brexit,
if it had been the Labour party who had propsed and campainged for it,
instead of posh rich tories, farage, ukip, britain first, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

.. but the real alarm siren for me,
was when trump and his cult of cronies started bigging up farage and brexit..

.. not that surprising if putin and Cchina are also fully in favour
of breaking up and destabilising Europe...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 02:42 AM

What are we all going to do with our last 2 days in the EU then? I'm going to eat and drink all the European leftovers from Christmas :-)

Post Brexit? Only one option really - Instead of remainers we can become rejoiners! OK, it may not be on as good terms as we had but must be better than Bozzers "deal".

Subject: BS: incompetent british prime minsters
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:33 AM

For many years this honour seemed to belong to Callaghan , who could not sort out a dustmans strike and let Thatxcher in to power.
however Cameron surpassed, sunny jim, by allowing a referendum on the EU,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM

Bonzo not a joke. i understand why a capitalist lackey dislikes corbyn , because corbyn unlike you has principles you are the person whose only consideration when investing is how much money you can make

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 04:11 AM

Should be in the British politics thread surely.

In the meanwhile my vote goes to Bozzer . "Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:04 AM

I simply can't understand why Starmer is whipping Labour MPs to vote in favour of this deal. When the inevitable happens and things go belly-up, Johnson will be able to turn round and say, well, you did vote for it...

This is a stinkin' Tory deal and the Tories alone must own it (I note that all the other parliamentary parties are going to vote against). Starmer was the fence-sitter par excellence over a second referendum, and now he's being pusillanimous in failing to do what an opposition is supposed to do, oppose bad government policies. He's a bloody disaster for my party. I'm considering my position here...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:29 AM

Edward Heath. Tricked us into Europe on such disastrous terms that even Labour tried to renegotiate, with as much success as you might expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM

yes, i've just watched ian blackford speaking in the debate. he was very impressive in making an unanswerable case for rejecting the deal, particularly for scotland. he dealt with the 'muttering' 'lying' 'shame on you' 'deceitful' tories with contempt. he noted that every party in scotland has united to oppose the tories - including scottish labour. Not one labour mp stood up to challenge him - or to support him. keir starmer sat motionless throughout - utterly discredited. his support for the tory project revealed as a cowardly, narrow, politically cynical, useless stunt.

i left the party a few months back - our brief flirtation with progressive and principled politics having been killed off by the dark forces of 'labour' rightwingers - and joined the greens yesterday.

happy new year everyone

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. I'd say that it's not possible to blame Heath (if you really must blame anybody) exclusively. The Labour Party connived, as did the electorate.

The Cameron regime put the poorest in this country through years of miserable austerity, which didn't have the effect he desired and which history will judge to have been completely unnecessary. His hubris convinced him that he would win the referendum. Instead, he pitched us into four useless years of wrangling and a dishonourable and shabby exit from the best trading bloc (among many other of its positive attributes) we could ever have belonged to. He gets my vote, though he is facing stiff competition from the present incumbent, and he will no doubt soon be overtaken in the crass stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

I left the Labour party a few weeks back on principle. I was a member of the Greens too but cancelled my membership there due to an administrative cock up that proved they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. When Labour return to their core values and stop pandering to the ludicrous right wing Israeli lobby I may rejoin.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM

And speaking of the Cameron years, don't get me started on the inhuman and humiliating treatment that millions of sick, disabled and unemployed people had to endure under Iain Duncan-Smith, not to speak of the "liberation" of the labour market via zero-hours contracts, fake apprenticeship schemes, forcing millions to declare themselves to be "self-employed" (equals no sick pay, no holiday pay, no maternity pay) and the stripping away of workers' rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM

I don't envy Starmer's position at all in this. But if people say they can't understand why he is voting as he is, they are saying if no-deal happens they do not recognise that tbe Tories will claim for the next 50 years that they had a deal but Labour wrecked it, so all blame is on Labour. After all, look how much mileage they have got out of 'The Winter of Discontent'.

Now, maybe since the ERG have said they will support the deal the arithmetic has changed a bit and the risks are lower, but do not doubt that if Labour voted against a deal and we ended up in no deal, Labour would be saddled with all the blame for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

This YouGov poll is pertinent to the discussion:

"According to new polling by YouGov, Britons overwhelmingly - by a margin of more than six to one - want MPs to pass the trade deal legislation. Even remain supporters and Labour supporters are far more likely to say M MPs should vote in favour than vote against, the poll suggests.

But the poll also suggests that fewer than one in five people think it is a good deal. Even Conservative supporters and leave supporters are more inclined to see it as “neither good nor bad” than as a mainly positive achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:49 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership.
The 2016 referendum took place under a Conservative government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. It was only because of a disconnect between the government and the public that support for UKIP rose to such a level that Cameron felt threatened and offered a referendum. Both major parties were still in favour of continuing with our membership.

In more recent years it seems difficult to tell whether the party leaders (particularly May, Corbyn & Starmer) support membership of the EU or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:08 AM

That's all very well, but this deal is going through whatever Labour do. That's the position and that should inform Labour's stance. I repeat: this is a Tory deal and history must record that the Tories alone own it.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:27 AM

I'm sticking with Heath. If he'd done the job properly, i.e. from a position of strength, we might still be in the EU today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM

As I say, now the the ERG appears to be in favour of the deal, the arithmetic has changed. Until then, it was quite feasible the deal fell if a substantial part of the ERG group and Labour (plus SNP and others) voted against. Now the ERG appears settled in favour, the risk of no deal is a lot lower. We might get some clue in an hour or so whether it would have fallen without Labour - or we may not, I suspect it will not be that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:57 AM

I still haven't forgiven Boris for saying Jo Cox's memory should be honoured by getting Brexit done - when that was the thing she didn't want.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:26 AM

Well the last two were progressively worse but this latest buffoon is set to leave them standing in the stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

labour - or parliament - did not have to support this deal. at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis. now labour have supported us leaving the EU. leaving the EU at the worst possible time. leaving the EU without having had any say in deciding the terms of departure. supported us leaving the EU at the worst possible terms for vulnerable workers, uk migrants in europe. leaving the EU - supporting tories to do critical damage to our industries and services. and erasmus ffs!

all because they never had the bottle to stand up to the nicotine-stained man frog. and politically out-manoeuvred by boris johnson. they are trying to appeal to the mindset of voters who will never be appeased no matter how far right labour go - preferring this tactic to supporting the views of all their supporters and all of us who rely on them.

thoroughly embarrassing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis.

Not in practice. Only the government can introduce such a law directly, not Labour or the other parties. Labour might have been able to attach such an amendment to some other bill, but that would rely on the Speaker selecting it, which he would be unlikely to do unless it was specifically about the bill. He would probably not have allowed it, for example, as an amendment to the Internal Market bill.

Now the bill has passed (for all practical purposes) we need to build from where we are, not where we could have been in other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:03 AM

Just in case anyone misunderstands me when I say we have to work from where we are, I do *not* mean forget all the past. Our future options are limited by what we can do for each next step, but the past informs us not only what we have lost, but what can be achieved, so it can set a direction of travel. For example, there is no inherent reason we should permanently lose access to the security databases. There will be a price in cash and, yes, in sovereignty, but it can be done if we want.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:04 AM

Well.. the Post office is issuing notice that sending parcels to Europe
is going to become much more difficult;

and a major European music software developer has emailed
that Brits may not be able to purchase their products
until they try to understand and sort out practicalities of any new rules...

wot a fackup...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM

My age group who were students during the early 80s
are still inclined to automatically nominate thatcher...!!!

.. though boris is nudging closer to usurping her...

.. but when he is pushed out, dread to think which tory **** will replace him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:25 AM

Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics Operations Manager of the U.K. Division of the European arm of a world-wide petro-chemical processing company. She is still waiting to hear what new regulations will prevail, and what documentation will be required, in order to import goods from, and export goods to, the EU w.e.f. Friday, 1st January, 2021.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:52 AM

I had a look at the Prusa (a respected Czech maker of 3D printers) website yesterday and saw they had a notice saying they had suspended taking orders from the UK because of the Brexit situation.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:24 AM

After Labour was defeated at the 1970 general election, Callaghan played a key role in the Shadow Cabinet. He became Foreign Secretary in 1974 upon Labour regaining government, taking responsibility for renegotiating the terms of the UK's membership of the European Communities, and supporting a "Yes" vote in the 1975 referendum to remain in the EC

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:46 AM

Cameron johnson thatcher are even worse than sunny jim

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:00 AM

Should have thought Anthony Eden worth a shout?

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:32 AM

"Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.
Extremely gentle to Blair.
He did not "make a blunder". He chose to take the UK into an illegal war. He got Parliament to assent based on his claim to have seen definite proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but not being willing to share this evidence with Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:37 AM

Labour or tory, our PMs seem to end up as America's tame lap dogs...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM

Yes Nigel. They both made catastrophic decisions for the sake of their political careers. Which is pretty much what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:31 AM

not so attlee or harold wilson were they americas tame lap dogs. now heath was very much a european was he an american tame lap dog, he may have been over enthusiastic about europe and may not have negotriated the best terms, please correct me if i am wrong, the last astaement may not be totally informed

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM

mind you heath was a bad PM ,THE MAN THAT GAVE THE UK A 3 DAY WEEK

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:03 AM

'King Boris

Because his only qualification for the job was that he wanted it.

A turncoat just like Trump. And look what is happening there.

And if you thought Callaghan & Heath put the country in queer street, the next four years will be telling.

And on a lighter note, during the 3 day week, in a factory visit, there was a notice on a door saying "Please close door to conserve HEAT" to which someone had appended a "T"

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM

I think callagahn enabled mrs thatcher to get in to power,
i think heath had a disastrous 3 day week , so i was talking about heaths home not foreign policy

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:19 AM

Mr Red, did you mean 'to which someone had appended an "H"'?

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM

Yes an H - I was distracted by Mrs T

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:43 AM

Also depends how far back:-

Lord Liverpool - presided over the era of Peterloo and the Corn Laws.

Lord John Russell - disastrous response to the Irish potato famine.

The Duke of Wellington's stint as Pm was also pretty disastrous though he did enable the Catholic Emancipation Act as I recall

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 02:54 PM

I hardly dare ask, but does Mrs Backwoodsperson know yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 03:18 PM

Starmer is the Ramsay Macdonald of 2020

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:58 PM

2 more hours! Wow!

[I just remembered time zones.]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:21 PM

39 minutes. It's now 22:21 UTC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM

DMcG - no further info up to yesterday. She’s on leave now until 4/1/21.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 06:00 PM

However, she has contacts, and a plan...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 06:10 PM

News.. Boris's dad applying for French citizenship...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 01:25 AM

No surprise there then...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: BobL
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM

Lord North - lost us our colonies the other side of the Pond.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 06:34 AM

Who WOULD have been the worst prime minister if elected ??? Gold medal goes to corbyn - no contest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 07:13 AM

It is a disgrace that the trade agreement was only reached with a few days left.A lot of people both here and in the EU are unsure about the new procedures. The UK is adopting a hands off approach for the first 6 months with regards to imports. Exports of course are entirely another matter.

The port entrance was very quiet at 10.00 this morning, apart from the number of TV crews standing around with nothing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 07:40 AM

I've been a Labour voter all my life but I tend to agree with Bonzo about Mr Corbyn.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 08:16 AM

I don’t know if he would have been the ‘worst’ PM, but he certainly managed to alienate a lot of voters, and his supporters currently waging a civil war within the party are in danger of doing the same.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 09:00 AM

Daft question in m'humble. Very strong, pig-headed leaders make for very damaging prime ministers (Thatcher, Johnson). Then there are those who can't work with advisers (May). Corbyn is not of that ilk and he would likely have worked well with advisers. Of course, that raises the question of the quality of those advisers. Let's hope that Starmer is booted out before the next election. He isn't even a leader, and he would make such a terrible prime minister that the Tories would quickly regain power and hold it for a generation. And if anyone is fomenting a civil war in Labour, it's him. He should never have whipped MPs to vote for Johnson's shoddy deal and he should not have made himself supine before the Board Of Deputies. These things will come back to bite him, and it won't necessarily be the fault of leftie Labourites either.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 10:02 AM

Have to take issue with you there Steve, Johnson very strong? Don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 10:35 AM

I see that the new 'new variant' has been designated 'Variant of Concern'by Public Health England.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 11:47 AM

I meant strong personalities, not possessing strong and visionary leadership skills. OK, read charismatic for strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 01:56 PM

Re Stanley Johnson. Not a great fan but to be fair on this issue he seemingly voted Remain so if he has a legit route to regain his European Union citizenship then why not? I'd certainly do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 02:10 PM

He’s a turncoat...

Stanley Johnson - Turncoat...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 06:59 AM

i'd like to ask Keir Starmer just one question to which the required answer would be yes or no:-

Is it correct that I am allowed to criticise the actions of the Britiah government, the US government, the Russian government or the German government but not the Israeli government?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 07:07 AM

You will never get a one-word answer from a politician. If you asked him that, I suspect that you'd get the full treatise around the IHRA false definition of antisemitism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 07:14 AM

People should be allowed to change their minds without being accused of being a "turncoat".

In the article linked to, Stanley Johnson expressed a belief about what would happen. It was NOT a life-long commitment with no option to retract if that belief turned out to be unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM

Though how many times has old man johnson changed his mind on brexit,
to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???

At least the old fella is in a very comfy position, with more than enough options,
to weather the 'leave' storm,
his dopey boy has inflicted on the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 04:48 PM

Though how many times has old man Johnson changed his mind on brexit, to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???
Hardly at all. Right up until last month Johnson Snr. was writing articles in the Telegraph on why we should cancel Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 06:41 AM

So, yanks, you're not getting your grubby mitts on Julian Assange. Excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM

How about a straight swap for Anne Sacoolas?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 12:10 PM

Except that she should definitely be here but he should definitely not be there. In m'humble, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 12:15 PM

I have a very strong suspicion that, if there were to be such a swap, Mrs. Sacoolas would receive considerably better treatment by U.K. authorities than Julian Assange would receive from the authorities in the US.

A very good reason not to agree to such a swap in the unlikely event it was offered by the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 02:34 PM

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 03:20 PM

well then.. lockdown from tomorrow...

But our inept / willfully negligent / ideologically vindictive / murderous / tory Govt
could not resist just one more day of cramming infected kids and parents into primary schools...

So, how can we not suspect a deliberate attempt to kill off expensive older teachers,
falsely accused of being marxist feminist brainwashers of innocent naturally conservative children..

..when there's a massed herd of newly redundant right wing business and financial workers
who are available to be redeployed as fast tracked ideologically 'acceptable' teacher substitutes...?????

nah.. that's far too cynical an idea...??????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 03:53 PM

Jeeze pfr, tell us what you really think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 05:40 PM

Pay people to eat out
Open universities
Threaten schools with legal action if they close

Oh look. Infection rates are up. It must be this new strain. Can't be me. I follow science.

B Johnson. January 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 05:59 PM

Yes pfr,that is far too cynical an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 06:27 PM

Excellent action by the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 01:52 AM

I agree that the lockdown is good, Bonzo. It was the actions prior to that that were idiotic.

I just remembered that one of Terry Pratchett's characters was called Bloody Stupid Johnson. Prophetic or what!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 02:01 AM

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???

The Assange business started during the Obama administration. This will hold more context for Biden than some of the other things Trump has mangled over the last four years.

As a journalist I have mixed feelings about Assange. Publishing the Manning stuff was one thing; publishing the Clinton emails as a tool of the Russians and Trump were entirely another and put his journalistic motivation to question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 04:36 AM

I agree we needed to lockdown, and immediately. It was, and is, the only way of getting a handle on things. But it is still too vague and lax in many ways. I am a Church-goer, but think it unwise to keep places of worship open. Yes, I understand the mental health aspect, but non-church-goers also have a mental health aspect, and there is no 'special' support for them. We are told to keep things local, but that is left vague. Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?


But the action the government is taking that concerns me most is this idea of a long delay between first and second vaccinations. Because if you asked me to come up with a way to evolve vaccine-resistant forms of the virus outside a lab, that is almost exactly the way I would do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:20 AM

Schools should be closed, are they still open in the uk?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:51 AM

"Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?"

Nah. It's only OK if you drive that far in order to test your eyesight for driving...   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 06:05 AM

Dick - children were back 'as normal' for only one day yesterday..

Now today, teachers and other staff must attend school all day for emergency meetings and briefings..

Tomorrow, who the f@ck knows...???

It appears the academy that runs my wife's school completely excluded Union Reps
from any discussions and planning...???

At least that is how my wife understands what may have transpired behind the scenes...


Whatever happens, be assured the tories will blame Teacher's Unions
for all disruption and chaos...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 07:02 AM

I thought, Steve, you might comment on the risk of evolving a vaccine-resistant variant of covid-19. Back in April 2020 at least 30 variants had been identified, so it looks like the virus is fairly adaptable.   Any thoughts? Obviously, neither of us has the detailed knowledge of viruses to answer the question rigorously, but in general terms the risks and processes seem to be similar to evolving antibiotic resistant    bacteria etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM

Johnson, has proved to be inept, schools should have been closed a while ago, number one priority is stopping the spread of the virus.
Johnson has dithered and procrastinated and shown he is incompetent and yet bonzo 3legs and his like will still vote Conservative, they cannot admit that the NHS cannot cope because for years the conservatives have run it down., so that it is unable to cope with an emergency, meanwhile nurses are in short supply and are not paid enough.
how does johnsons deal compare to the one Theresa May would have got?
It appears that the most important difference is the non existence of the back stop, I think Thersa May had a higher level of competnce than Johnson and probably would have handled covid and brexit better, not difficult really, Starmer would have been better,, Corbyn would have been better,Johnson is an incompetent ditherer.There are three main differences between Theresa May's Brexit deal and Boris Johnson's one
Boris Johnson has been bullish about the UK leaving the EU on 31 October – will these changes help him?
Oct 19th 2019, 8:00 AM 40,491 Views 7 Comments
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Image: PA Wire/PA Images

THE KEY DIFFERENCES between Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement, and Boris Johnson’s version of it are the alternative arrangement to the Irish backstop, a consent mechanism for the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the level-playing field provision.

The vast majority of the Withdrawal Agreement is untouched from its original format – with the changes focused on the two elements that pro-Brexit MPs took issue with the last three times a vote was taken on it (although the financial settlement has been reduced from £39 billion to £33 billion because of the extension).

Today’s vote in the House of Commons will clarify whether there was a legitimate concern over these elements, which Brexiteers claimed would locked the UK in a customs union that restricted the it from future trade deals, and agreeing to rules that would make the UK less competitive post-Brexit.

Despite nothing much in the 585-page Withdrawal Agreement having been changed, the things that have been changed are complicated to explain.

1. The backstop is gone

The backstop, was a plan B in the Withdrawal Agreement that would be implemented if an alternative agreement to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland couldn’t be found.

It would keep Northern Ireland aligned to the European Union’s Custom Union and Single Market, which Brexiteers argued would mean the UK couldn’t avail of future trade deals (Theresa May rejected a Northern Ireland-only backstop in favour of a UK-wide one in order to protect ‘the integrity of the union’).

The backstop’s replacement is similar to the original Northern Ireland-only backstop, with the additional issue of consent to make the mechanism less “antidemocratic”.

In short, it means that Northern Ireland will remain aligned to the EU’s Custom Union, but will be in the United Kingdom’s custom territory, meaning that if there are future trade deals struck, Northern Ireland would avail of them.

In practice, this would mean that if goods are sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, no tariffs apply. If goods are sent from Great Britain through Northern Ireland to Ireland, tariffs will apply, but they will be collected at ports and airports – effectively putting a customs border along the Irish Sea.

For goods sent from Ireland to Northern Ireland, there would be no tariffs, and for goods travelling from Ireland through Northern Ireland to Great Britain, there would be tariffs collected at the Irish Sea customs border.

2. Consent

This was an important part of the discussions, as it proved difficult to capture what true “consent” from Northern Ireland would be.

If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed by the House of Commons today, this arrangement will come into effect at the end of the transition period, which will end in December 2020 (or December 2022 if it’s extended).

Related Reads
18.10.19
'Too soon to celebrate': On the border, people give Brexit deal cautious welcome
17.10.19
Explainer: Here's how the consent vote in the North will work
17.10.19
Explainer: Where has the Northern Ireland backstop gone?

Four years after that, (but two months before the deadline), the Northern Ireland Assembly will get a vote on whether to keep this customs arrangement, or default to “existing” WTO rules.

Speaking to reporters in Brussels yesterday, the Taoiseach said: “So there is of course an outside chance that at some point in the latter part of the next decade… [an] Assembly might decide to opt out of alignment, opt out of the Single Electricity Market, opt out of the new customs arrangement.

    But I’m confident that’s not going to happen, because I think that people in Northern Ireland, businesses in the Northern Ireland, farmers in Northern Ireland are going to see and experience the benefits of this arrangement.

    But if there’s a risk we’re taking, the risk we’re taking is one on democracy, and saying to people in Northern Ireland that you determine your future and this is something I can stand over.

On the vote itself, if a simple majority is achieved (so half of the total of votes cast, plus one more vote at least), it would extend the arrangements for another four years.

If they receive a cross-party consensus, meaning a majority of 60%, and at least 40% support from unionists and nationalists, then the arrangements will be extended by eight years.

If there’s no Stormont Assembly in four years’ time, those elected will be reconvened for a vote on which direction to take Northern Ireland in.

Although the DUP is opposing the deal over customs, consent and VAT reasons, and fears that it would severe the North’s link with the rest of the United Kingdom, the Taoiseach said that in his view, it did not change its “constitutional status”.

    If this agreement is ratified and it is fully implemented, the queen will still be the queen; the pound will still be the pound; people will still post letters in Royal Mail red letterboxes, Northern Ireland will still be part of the United Kingdom.

3. The Political Declaration

The “level-playing field” provision was another sticking point for UK-EU negotiators. It essentially aimed to create a base level of standards for labour rights, the environment, tax and state aid rules.



This is so as to ensure state aid rules aren’t used by either side to boost their own companies; labour rules aren’t lowered in order to increase company profits; or environmental standards aren’t renegned upon in order to become more competitive post-Brexit.

This had been a legally-binding agreement contained in the Withdrawal Agreement – it’s now stated in the Political Declaration:

“the Parties agree to develop an ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership. This partnership will be comprehensive, encompassing a Free Trade Agreement, as well as wider sectoral cooperation where it is in the mutual interest of both Parties.

“It will be underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part. It should facilitate trade and investment between the Parties to the extent possible, while respecting the integrity of the Union’s Single Market and the Customs Union as well as the United Kingdom’s internal market, and recognising the development of an independent trade policy by the United Kingdom.”

Reference to a customs union as the baseline for a future trade deal, and UK alignment with EU regulations have also been removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM

Anyone fancy storming the houses of parliament? I don't think anyone has made a serious attempt since 1605 and we can learn a lot from our friends across the pond :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 21 - 06:26 PM

Well, Dave, in the US you might get shot. Storming Parliament here might get you bashed with either a truncheon or the mace...And that mace has a lot knobbly bits...

Sod it. That's the end of THAT revolution then... Bloody mace...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 21 - 07:28 PM

You really couldn't make this up.

Leave.EU the organisation founded by Aaron Banks to campaign for the UK to leave the EU now has transferred it's registered office to Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/leaveeu-leaves-britain-after-brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM

england has been hijacked by a load of rich thieves and scroundrels. less showy than their US counterparts - but just as evil

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM

I see the government are setting up mass vaccination centres but you may have to travel up to an hour to get to one. In the middle of a lockdown where we have been told not to travel. Where the people who are getting the jabs are the over 80s and vulnerable who are most likely not to drive and going on public transport may spread the virus. While mixing with your elderly parents to drive them there could land you with a fine.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 03:30 AM

There is an exemption for medical needs, so I guess you could get by with that.

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.

On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.

With some slight variations, I guess that is true of many of the 'built-up' areas of the country.

Now, I fully understand the rationale behind stopping transmission from one area to another, but it does not take a lot of thought to work out maybe the rules are not really achieving what we want.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 06:53 AM

Maybe they are achieving what the government wants, Dave. Who knows!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 09:37 AM

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.
On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.

Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore.

Just a couple of days ago police fined two women for driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire to meet-up for a walk. The police (apparently) said that as they'd taken coffee with them it was a 'picnic'.
Far be it from me to disagree with the police, but I think these two women were "a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 09:54 AM

Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore

Not really. My reasoning is that we should only go to places where there are few if any people. (And, by the way, to leave if we are mistaken.) It is not just to go wherever I happen to fancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 11:55 AM

driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire

Very disingenuous Nigel. You have been to Moira and know full well the proximity of those two counties, and Staffordshire if it comes to that. The ladies in question had driven about 5 miles. Local by most people's standards. As to the flask. What drink should we take out walking in this weather? Iced water? I have noticed that Derbyshire police are now reviewing their policies and the fines issued so far. So they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 12:07 PM

over zealous policing undermines public respect for lock down rules,
and only strengthens the confidence of militant anti lock down fukwits...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM

So, boris now seems to be competing to kill at least as many British civilians than even h1tler ever did...???

Well done, tories..

Persistently striving to make Britain world beaters...!!!


2020 saw most excess deaths since World War Two

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 01:21 PM

Some figure would show that he has already achieved that. 67,100 civilians were killed in the UK during WW2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 06:35 PM

It is illegal for me to leave home without reasonable excuse (and I never do), for example, for essential food shopping and medicines.

But I can go to Morrisons supermarket and I can buy children's clothes, a duvet and covers, pots and pans, an iron, a microwave, lipstick and lots of other beauty products, perfume, chocolate and sweets, magazines, lottery tickets, birthday cards, the finest malt whiskies and a dozen types of fancy gin, children's toys, car shampoo, DVD box sets and flowers. I checked all that out this evening (I went as late as I could for my spuds, veg and milk and to shop for vulnerable friends).Then I can (but won't) nip to the garden centre and buy patio furniture, a nice shirt or two, a garden statue of a naked lady and a nice big pot plant.

Were I to buy any of those items, I wonder if that would mean that Morrisons and the garden centre could potentially be aiding and abetting my illegal behaviour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:52 AM

When I go for our weekly shop I buy copious amounts of wine.

Now I am sure some people would claim that this is not an essential item, however the shop is open, they sell wine ................


I also suspect that had I burnt a saucepan or a duvet these too would be essential items to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:20 AM

Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless he
quote
is there anywhere Bonzo can buy something to stop verbal squit , essential, most definiteley

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:22 AM

I saw a youtube clip of a middle aged woman in bournemouth sitting alone on a bench with a cup of coffee being arrested and handcuffed by police,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 05:44 AM

"Margaret Thatcher. God bless he"

Heheh. In view of what a lot of us thought about her aggression and hubris, I'll take that as a Freudian slip par excellence!

Burnt duvet, Raggytash?   Now how many times have I told you not to smoke that pipe in bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 05:48 AM

Why drag up a post from 3 months ago I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 05:56 AM

That did occur to me too...


Dick...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 07:11 AM

Correct, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM

Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it , Raggytash , does it really matter whether it was posted yesterdayd or 3 months ago it is total squit.
Raggy whjat is your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:16 AM

"Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it"

That is absolute bollocks Dick, and you know it. A quick glance at your posting history shows you have posted over 600 times since 13th October.

That equates to 200 posts per month, or almost 7 posts a day. Most of those have been below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:20 AM

Perhaps I could mention that equates to one post every 4 hours, day and night, 7 days a week since October.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 03:05 PM

I had only just noticed his post.
Raggytash have you got nothing else to do but count my posts.
I answered your question, it does not follow that i because post on mucat frequently that i noticed his post. or every post
i have other things to do than count posts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 09:51 AM

Brexit news – live: Boris Johnson has not read trade deal text, No 10 hints as crisis plan for ports revealed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 10:34 AM

"fomenting".. ahh.. not "fermenting".. I remember now.. gottit...

I agonised over that for a few minutes earlier this week.
But the mental block wouldn't budge,
so I gave up and used a near enough alternative word...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 03:00 AM

Does anyone else see the similarities between our Bozzer and the Turnip across the pond? Gained power using blatant populism. Tells lies all the time. Took over a political party for their own aggrandisement. Will do anything to stay in power. Hopefully he will go the way of the Turnip too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM

yes.. they are both working for the same elite order
of hidden subterranean lizard people, who cloned them..

.. not that sensible lefties fall for conspiracy theories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 12:47 PM

You know, I would never have thought it possible, but I am missing some of the banned right wingers. It would have been great to take the piss of them now :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 01:02 PM

Remember.. I was always against banning the wonky headed antagonistic buggers..

They did serve a purpose, and had their entertainment value...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM

Can't agree with that, pfr. The two or three I'm thinking of dragged the place down with their bad secret agendas, the sort of thing I've seen, when not controlled, on other websites that brought them into disrepute and nurtured a culture of trolling, flaming and sweary insults that just couldn't be recovered from. We can all agree or disagree about certain individuals (and, bejaysus, I've walked the tightrope meself on several occasions), but the bottom line is that this is someone else's site, someone who sweated his arse off to set it up with his own vision, him, not us, and we have no right to dictate terms here. We can squabble and argue and protest, and it's grand of the founder of this site to allow that. This is not a democracy. It's someone's vision, and we can sign up for free and bugger off for free, not having to make the commitment that the founder had to make. It costs us nowt. So celebrate the fact that you can freely put up your point of view and still have a bloody good grumble at Jeri, Maggie and Joe. They love us really...

...Don't you...?

---

Most of the time! ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM

Shock Brexit charges are hurting us

Just who are these charges a shock to I wonder? Just the knobs that voted for them I would have thought. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that anything going in and out of the EU would be adversely affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 01:50 PM

Weren’t we assured by Brexiteers and their supporters, including on this forum, that warnings of this kind of thing by Remain campaigners were nothing more than ‘Project Fear’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:06 PM

Was that a corporate mudelf or just one of you? :-) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 09:30 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM

”It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

That’s an interpretation you have chosen to put on it Steve. You’re the one who brings up ‘lefties’, etc., not me. Own your prejudice.

When I talk about ‘unity in the LP’, I’m asking for both sides to bury the hatchet and work together for the good, not only of the Party, but also of the vast majority of the people of this country.

And yes, DMcG, I agree that this discussion would be better placed in the UK Politics thread, but others raised it here.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

You're assuming that you've been right all along about Jeremy Corbyn. The splits in the party were caused not by him but by his opponents (constantly briefing against him, using the bogus antisemitism nonsense as a stick to beat him with, refusing to be in his shadow cabinet, etc. A death wish by the party right...). There's a very interesting new book that's been given excellent reviews, even by the right-wing press (before you say anything) that gives what's been described as a very honest account of Corbyn's leadership and what went wrong for him, This Land by Owen Jones. I'll be buying it. Corbyn stunned the pundits by robbing May of her majority in 2017. The Tories didn't like it, the media didn't like it and the right wing in the Labour Party didn't like it. So, next time round, out came the big guns...

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM

Funny though, isn’t it Steve, that when I appeal for unity in the Labour Party and support for the democratically-elected leader in order to concentrate on fighting the worst Tory government we’ve had for a great many years, I’m jumped on and lambasted by our resident Corbynistas?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

It's a bit like when there's plenty of money in the bank, Dave (not that I'd know). Little crises that might cause splits can be overridden. Money-in-the-bank for the Tories is their big majority. If they were to lose most or all of that majority next time round, there would be splits, but whether that would be enough to wreck 'em kind of hinges on Labour not having even bigger splits...

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM

Is the Republican party torn by internal division? We can only hope our Tories will go the same way but, for now, that seems to be the prerogative of the Labour party!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM

There. That was the exchanges that started up in the wrong thread. Carry on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 09:33 AM

Depending on which way you read threads, that might have gone in a funny way up,....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM

Well, John, your interpretation of burying the hatchet, etc., for about four years seemed to involve disaffected right-wingers (always a relative term, of course) in the party cold-shouldering the properly-elected party leader, publicly dissing him, concertedly using vile antisemitism slurs against him and refusing to serve in his shadow cabinet. Then, when you finally get rid of him (by doing everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and the media) and get your own man in, appeal for unity and the burying of the hatchet. I ask you, which of those two sides demonstrates lack of principle? Fine to bury the hatchet as long as you've got your man in there first, eh?

And chickens always come home to roost. Now that we've got our safe pair of hands installed, just look at how bloody useless he is. So much for let's ditch principle and get Boris out at any cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 10:28 AM

Oh.. The Labour Party.. I remember them...

Don't hear much about 'em anymore.. since boris became his own most effective opposition...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:34 AM

He'll get away with it. Without a strong opposition leader (wot we have assuredly not got) he'll get in again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:48 AM

I got behind Corbyn. I voted for Becky but supported Keir for a while. I have since left the Labour party but that was to do with the pandering to the right wing Israeli lobby rather than the leadership. Maybe the two are tied though? Is Starmer a right wing plant? I doubt it but his actions so far do not bode well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:58 AM

Well there you go, Steve, twisting words again. The old Jim Carroll tactic - when you have no answer, twist and re-interpret the words of your opponent to make them mean what you want them to mean, and then argue against your own interpretation. I really thought you were a better man than that. Shameful.

So, to respond to your interpretation of what I’ve actually been advocating...

1. Most importantly - I’m not a Member of the Labour Party, nor am I a ‘disaffected right-winger’. I would describe myself as being of the centre-left.

2. I didn’t do anything to ‘finally get rid of him’, nor to ‘get my own man in. In view of (1), how could I?

3) Despite my own feelings that he was not a good Leader, but because he was the democratically-elected Leader, I supported Corbyn throughout his Leadership, spoke up for him and defended him against those who did ‘everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and their media’. It was my stated belief during that time too that there should be an end to division and a move to unity in the party in order to return a desperately-needed Labour government. I voted Labour in each GE during Corbyn’s reign. A check of my posts on this forum during the time of the election will confirm.

4) I don’t believe that the current incumbent is a great leader, but he is the democratically-elected Leader and, exactly as I did during Corbyn’s time as Leader, I will support The Labour Party on the basis that the Party is bigger than any individual or group of individuals, and that removing the worst Tory government in my lifetime is far more important than fighting internal wars. And no matter who the next Leader might be, I will continue with that principle. Party First and Foremost.

5. I really couldn’t care less about your internal, eternal, puerile battles of ideology - fighting your own party won’t get rid of the ideology of Conservatism, only a united Labour Party, working for the good of those who need it the most, will do that.

Now have fun twisting that lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 01:13 PM

It's you twisting, or not reading properly, John. The whole of the main paragraph in the post that's got your gander up is directed at members of the Labour Party (do check that out - it's pretty explicit in the post). As you are not one, I fail to see why you appear to take what I said personally. It doesn't apply to you. But you have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiments on a number of occasions. I don't agree with that, I gave my reasons and I told you about what I think could be a good read. By the way, my use of the term "right-wingers" with reference to people in the Labour Party who jumped on the anti-Corbyn bandwagon is relative, something else I made clear in the post.

Dave, I decided not to leave the party, though many of us lefties have done so. It was a close call. I find it pretty distressing to see how things are currently going. Keir Starmer is going to be easy meat for the Tories when the chips are down at the next election, and the sheer absolute blunder of his trying to sideline Corbyn over that cobbled-together antisemitism report will come back to bite him on the arse. My God, does he know how to do the splits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:41 AM

Another Brexit benefit!

Britons buying from EU site face import duties

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM

I'm Backing Britain.. [1968]

Britain ain't Backing Me.. [2021]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:26 AM

Another Brexit benefit!
Britons buying from EU site face import duties

The two examples given both say they were unaware that they weren't buying from a UK firm. So they could just as easily be buying from USA or China, where import duties and VAT could also be charged. Peoples buying choices are hardly the fault of Brexit, or of the UK government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:41 AM

Earlier this month I placed an order with a company in Northern Ireland.

15 days ago I received a message to say the goods had been sent to the distribution company, a large household name.

For the past 3 days I have been chasing the goods. I am informed today that no goods whatsoever are being forwarded to the UK because of "Brexit"

I pity the poor sod in the distribution centre having to field call like mine asking where our goods are and when we can expect delivery.

He had absolutely no idea of what was happening and muttered vague dates like middle of February, middle of March as prospective dates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:56 AM

Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU;
that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe,
or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???

Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:02 PM

"souds"..

the "n" has been held up in transit by post brexit red tape..
I could have sworn I was getting it from a UK spellchecker...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:26 PM

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:41 PM

I mentioned this to my sister, pointing out that a lot of Amazon goods come via their warehouses on 5he Republic or Germany. She send this note in replay:

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 1 – EFN

EFN allows you to fulfil orders from any Amazon European marketplace, while you ship your goods to Amazon’s fulfilment centres in just one country such as the UK.

From the 1st of January 2020 goods in Amazon’s UK fulfilment centres will no longer be used to fulfil orders in Europe. Effectively your sales opportunity from selling on Amazon UK dropped from 446 million EU consumers to 66 million brits.

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 2 – Pan-European FBA

Currently, with Pan-European FBA, when you send your products to fulfilment centres in the UK, Amazon distribute them for storage across Europe. Your products become Prime eligible and visible to millions of customers, with faster delivery while you pay only UK local fulfilment fees.

This will end for stock in Amazon UK warehouses on the 1st of January 2021. However if you send stock to an Amazon warehouse in Europe then it will still be distributed to other European warehouse, with the exception that it won’t be sent back to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:56 PM

So what's the future prospects now for all the affordable CDs, music equipment, & misc. products
I depend on buying frequently, shipped free from Amazon EU S.a.r.L....???????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 04:29 AM

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.
I don't deny that. And that it also applies to residents of the EU buying from UK.
But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

As for pfr's comment:
Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU; that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe, or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???
Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...

It doesn't even merit a considered reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:19 AM

But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

Well, we will leave it at this, but the point is the link talked about the fact the charges exist. The extent to which these people understood it was not, for me, the salient point. That the charges are now incurred is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:32 AM

Really, I should never say I will 'leave it at that' until I am sure I have thought for at least five more minutes. After this, I really will leave it.

Firstly, I am pleased, Nigel, that you acknowledge every citizen in the UK may now be liable for customs charges for goods from the EU, when they were not before, and that this is an additional cost to them entirely due to Brexit.

Secondly, I take no pleasure that citizens of the EU also face customs duties. In fact, it is worse than that, because it means that given a choice between equivalent products from the UK and the EU the UK version will be more expensive due to the customs charges. Consequently, it is likely to reduce UK sales. That is not something to be pleased about.

Now I really will leave it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:50 AM

Yebbut we got are cuntry back...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM

Frum th right POV you hafta TAKE yur cuntree back , as in steal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:36 AM

"It doesn't even merit a considered reply."

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.

Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens
to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.
Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...
I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I have always accepted that there will be costs involved in Brexit. The fact that, for the two persons discussed in The Guardian I take the view caveat emptor in no way means that I am being contemptuous. Nor am I denying reality.

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.
"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before? (apart from dutiable goods such as alcohol & tobacco)
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..
Typical failure to understand. Not denying something is not the same as accepting it as true.

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???
No, it is not. I buy from EU and from worldwide, and pay any necessary customs/VAT as required. Before buying I check what the total cost is likely to be. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it!

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...

I only declined to respond because your post (as this time) was full of unwarranted assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 11:04 AM

"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before?

There were no customs charges from the EU, Nigel, as you well know. The customs charges now being applied are therefore an increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 11:05 AM

Nigel - thanks for the reply.
Even if it is mostly pedantic waffly deflection..

I thought of suggesting ardent brexiteers are happy to accept a high increase from zero import charges from the EU,
on regaining sovereignty,
because it is their patriotic duty..

Well I thought nah.. surely our Nige can't be that bonkers blinded by brexit ideology...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 12:05 PM

No point, PFR. Many people know that their vote for brexit was a mistake but it is human nature not to admit errors. Even if Nigel ever thought he was wrong he would never admit it on here. Far better just to take the piss :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM

DtG - what I enjoy about smug condescending folk,
is that while in their own heads they are convinced they are being so clever and superior;
here in the outside world of reality,
we just see them as smarmy out of touch arses...

But nonetheless, mudcatters are mainly good tolerant folks who welcome and celebrate diversity of personalities...

I can be friendly with just about most people..

You could say I'm an equal opportunities piss taker...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM

PFR - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM

Oh, and 800!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:13 AM

The VAT implications of an EU based business selling to the UK now are VAT consultant territory, unbelievably complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:43 AM

And the VAT Consultants and Shipping-Brokers are clueless too. Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics/Operations Manager for one of the UK production sites of a US-owned business with multiple locations in the EU and the UK. She currently has thirty-plus shipments to the EU held up at UK ports, Groupage warehouses, and her own warehouses, because no-one is able to determine what documentation is needed, or they are unable to obtain it. Add to that the fact that hauliers are refusing to collect loads because they don’t want their trucks to get ‘stuck’, and you have an almighty - and very expensive - fuck up. Many thousands of pounds of demurrage charges already, and we’re only three weeks in.

No wonder her employers are now considering whether to pull out of the UK altogether, and concentrate their production in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM

I imagine that most of the confusion is down to the fact that terms were only agreed days before we left. As I have said before, both sides are to blame for that.

Hopefully things will settle down soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:43 AM

But hey, we ‘Took are cuntry back’ and Nigs got his blue passport, so all’s well with the world, innit? Can't wait for those ‘sunlit uplands’ the Wide-Mouthed Frog and his nitwit followers promised us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:52 AM

Our VAT consultant is not clueless at all, how can you generalise?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM

I’ll take your word on that, Bonz - I’ve been retired from the Accounting world for nine years, so I’m out of touch and only have hearsay from my former international colleagues to go by.

But, of course, I was talking more specifically about the problems of logistics, movement of goods, etc. There’s no doubt that, prior to the end of December, and despite that fat buffoon with no dress-sense and the world’s worst haircut telling businesses to ‘prepare for Brexit’, there was little or no information available for businesses to study in order to ‘prepare’ themselves.

In the same way that businesses are struggling to export goods to EU countries, they are also suffering from the same kind of difficulties importing. My wife’s company brings a great deal of raw material in from the EU - a straightforward matter pre-31/12/21 - but, since then her suppliers have managed to get just one shipment across. Like U.K. hauliers, their EU counterparts are having the same problems with documentation and hauliers being reluctant to take the work on for fear of their trucks getting ‘stuck’ here and unable to get back. Fortunately, she foresaw the coming fuck-up, and stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020, but that’s being used and needs to be replenished - no sign of that happening short-term.

But never mind, the cabal of immensely wealthy individuals who pull the Tory strings and drove the BrexShit campaign can rest easy, knowing their tax-dodging can continue unhindered....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:15 AM

And that should have been 31/12/20 of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:17 AM

stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020

As did many others. Stockpiling is a great way of buying time while the problems are sorted, and with luck they get sorted out in time to restore a normal flow before the stockpile runs out. But is it far from certain.

That may be why haven't had too many supply problems yet. If the problems are sorted, we won't either. But if they are not, the issues will really start to bite once the stockpiles are used up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:46 AM

And of course, stockpiling comes at a cost, DMcG - not least storage costs. My wife is having to store materials in hired warehousing because her own warehouses can’t cope with it, and of course moving materials between hired warehousing and the production facility has to be paid for too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:59 AM

Of course, stockpiling of RM runs directly contrary to her company’s ‘Just In Time’ operating culture, and it has to be paid for - tying up large amounts of cash in inventory. So it’s a multiple-whammy. Not good for business at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 09:27 AM

The distribution company who have my goods at the moment have had those goods since the 6th January.

From my conversation with a chap there this week nothing has left their facilities bound for the UK and you may remember I placed my order with a company in Northern Ireland.

Utterly shambolic, and I have to say, typical of this governments handling of matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM

Just as an aside has anyone else noticed that although we Brits are limited to one thread the Americans at the moment have at least four.

Just saying like ............ :-0

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM

Yes, there are many costs connected with stockpiling that I didn't go into: my comments was all about supplying the market. As you say, it ties up company money and, if they have to hire additional warehouses, has direct costs as well.

My best guess is that Just-in-Time systems will have to change to 'small stockpile' systems. Whatever system you use, you need the 'demand' to equal the 'supply'.   So conceptually you always have a supply, a buffer area to smooth out variation and a demand that takes things out of the buffer. Just-in-Time is about making the buffer as close to zero as possible. I suspect that for the foreseeable future we will have to have lots of 'non-empty' buffers to smooth out delivery issues. Which, as you say ties up company money and may incur additional warehousing costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM

Just a quick one with no links - wife is insisting I get on with something..

BBC news items over last couple of days about container hire costs
rocket inflating by thousands of £££;
and UK businesses contemplating burning goods held up in Europe,
as less financial loss than continued increasing storage expenses...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 01:11 PM

There is an article in the press today were a cheese supplier in Cheshire states he has to provide a health certificate costing £180 on all his exports to the EU.

Those include his personal packs of cheese which would normally retail about £25- 30.

Guess what happens next!

Cheese

I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:17 PM

This is a good one!

Set up shop in EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:04 PM

Pfr.The problem with container prices mainly relates to non EU imports and is mostly due to covid related problems. Too many empty containers here resulting in a shortage of containers available to load abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:43 PM

Rain Dog - fair enough..

I mentioned I was posting in a hurry, so couldn't verify by googling for links,
on what I thought I remembered from the news..

.. consider my botty spanked for spreading inaccuracies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 06:02 PM

'I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.'

Seriously Raggytash?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 03:22 AM

I'm sure Raggytash will answer for himself, Rain Dog, but it you follow the arguments about Brexit then yes, seriously. Any mention of the adverse effects of Brexit have been jumped on by Brexiteers in politics, the press and even here on Mudcat as "project fear". Of course now they are saying they always expected some disruption. But that is not how it was sold or told. Nor has that disruption or the cost ever been quantified. I may have said "I doubt that anyone who voted for Brexit was informed that this may happen by the powers that be" but the spirit of Raggytash's comment is both serious and accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 04:13 AM

But that is not how it was sold or told.

Quite. I did spend around five minutes looking for any occasion when any of the Brexit supporters who are here or are no longer with us said there would be such disruption, but really it is not worth the effort; far too many posts to plough through.

From memory, all I can recall from before, say, the Dec 2019 election is an agreement there may be some short term disruption. Not 'will be', mind, but 'may be'. Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'. I mention that because charges due to customs fees are not short term under any sensible definition: they will be retained unless there are specific negotiations to eliminate that: setting up something like a single market, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 04:32 AM

Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'.

I should have given an honourable mention to Keith there, who was prepared to say when he said "short term", he meant "up to six months."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM

As predicted, food prices moving.
In my local supermarket bread & yoghurt up. Short shelf life.
Brie, all the way from la Belle France not gone up yet. But it has a long shelf life & there are warehouses in the UK. Watch this space.

Yea, Yea. Natural inflation and COVID can be blamed. They will be, it hides the Brexshit contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 08:07 AM

Here ya go - the chickens are coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 09:29 AM

Yes seriously Rain Dog.

Many of us remainers were suggesting that post brexit costs and administration would escalate to a point were some firms would no longer be viable.

We suggested that jobs would be exported and that unemployment in the UK would rocket.

I think that what we are seeing at the moment is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I recall posting on one occasion that one of my insurance underwriters had already transferred some of their operation to the EU in anticipation of excessive red tape here. I was told at the time I was talking nonsense, despite having quoted from a letter of explanation from the company detailing why they had moved.

So yes seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 01:06 PM

Great to see we ‘Took are cuntry back’, and we’re benefitting from the ‘sunlit uplands’ the Brexiteers promised us...the government are now recommending U.K. businesses to set up in the EU.

You really couldn’t make this lunacy up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 01:44 PM

And, Backwoodsman, they are in effect saying drop any other investment plans you have and spend you own money to overcome the limitations of this deal we have agreed. If you don't have the resources, or it doesn't work out, we guess you just aren't working hard enough to resolve the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 09:14 AM

One of the undeniable benefits of brexit, courtesy of the Daily Mash. I'm sure that Nigel will be enthusiastically applauding in agreement when he reads it:

SUPERMARKETS are suffering fresh food shortages. So that’s another benefit of Brexit. Leave voter Steve Malley explains the dangers of fresh fruit and veg.

You could stab yourself

Opening a tin? Safe. But unlike baked beans or Big Soup, fresh vegetables frequently need to be cut up. One slip slicing a carrot and you’ve put a knife through a major artery. In your panic you might then trip and stab yourself in the brain. Is it worth it just to eat a la-di-da courgette?

You’re exposing yourself to deadly acid

Fruit is rammed with dangerous citric acid. That can’t be safe. Remainers might complain about not being able to get fresh grapefruit, but should you listen to these idiots when they’re pretty much taking a swig from a car battery?

We didn’t evolve to eat salad

Humans only evolved hands to carry spears. That’s science. If we’d been intended to eat plants and grass we’d have hooves and be covered in wool like sheep. That’s not just my opinion, it’s the view of a great British hero you might have heard of – Charles Darwin.

Weakness, fainting and coma

Fruit and vegetables contain almost no nutrients compared to superfoods like sausages. If there’s more than a couple a week in your diet, you’ll gradually grow weaker and your teeth will fall out before you faint and slip into a coma. That’s your choice, but I have to be more responsible because I’m an HGV driver.

They’re a choking hazard

There’s no danger of choking on traditional British foods like beef broth and Angel Delight. By contrast, look at the tough, leathery skin of a pear or grape. You may as well be eating a bag of washers.

Food hygiene

You don’t get more hygienic than fresh out of the tin. However, fresh fruit and veg is grown in fields where mice and birds can shit on them. You wouldn’t get a seagull to crap on your bacon sandwich, so why take the risk with fruit and veg? We’re better off without.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 04:57 AM

Boris Johnson salary =143,789
Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £24,214
As of 1 October , the salary for a student nurse on 36 weeks placement stood at €15,056, according to the INMO. This works out at almost €11 per hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 07:56 AM

And your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

my point, fairly obvious.
nurses are doing a good job but not getting paid enough
Capitalism works on the basis of supply and demand, we have empty field hospitals and not enough nurses to work in them , pay them more. WE MIGHT SOLVE THE SHORTAGE OF NURSES
Boris Johnson however is not doing a good job and getting paid too much in comparison
Raggytash , do you think the nurses are doing a good job and do you think Johnson is doing a good job., and deserves to be paid more than nurses
Raggytash, are you one of those people that think giving the nurses a clap is sufficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:36 AM

Dick - so how many nurses have you given the clap...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM

Yes I do think a Prime Minister should be paid more than a nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM

All public service workers need to be paid more,
and the public sector needs to be expanded to realistic effective levels.

This should be regarded as an apolitical pragmatic priority for any Govt running Britain.

But we know it will never happen under tory ideological rule...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:55 AM

Consider how many necessary public sector real jobs could be created
with all the public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes,
temporarily propping up doomed private companies...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM

I think Nurse Ratched should be paid more than the current Prime Minister. And has more heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 03:36 PM

Consider how many necessary public sector real jobs could be created
with all the public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes,
temporarily propping up doomed private companies...???

As important as medics, educators and the emergency services are, don't put down people who actually make things that people need? Of course, the public sector jobs you are hoping to create could be yet more bureaucrats to deal with the long line of unemployed workers from the manufacturing sector that you seem to want to destroy.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 03:45 PM

Doug - eh...?????????

Putting down...?????


Want to destroy...??????


.. oh I get it.. you've made up something in your own mind,
which you seem to have convinced yourself
was my intended meaning..

Then responded as though I'd actually written it..

I understand now..

Nah Doug, you got all that wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 03:57 PM

If you say that I have got it wrong, then maybe so but the idea of

... public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes...

suggests to me that you disapprove of efforts being made to preserve jobs in the private sector.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 04:15 PM

Doug - ok, seriously..

A well-placed qualifying "all" or "some" would have made that clearer, I admit.

Though as I often write quickly between and during chores,
I do tend to think in terms of essential principles rather than specifics..

Sometimes perhaps a little too over generalised...???

But usually I know when I'm doing that for deliberate polemical effect.

However the point still stands that furlough billions from the tories' amazing magic money tree forest could, in some cases,
be better used...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 03:09 AM

Raggytash please read my post again.
I see that there are not enough nurses solution give them a pay rise.
I also see Boris Johnson has not done his job with competence, I think he is over paid in comparison to nurses.
The question of whether any prime minster should be paid more than nurses, that is a completely different question ,and you know that, that too is debatable considering that the civil service make a lot of decisions and are permanent whilst prime minsters come and go, but that was not being proposed by me.
that is a slightly different subject
Raggytash, do you seriously think Johnson is doing a better and more important job than the nurses.
Do you also think that in these present times, the job of this prime minster based on his lack of achievement with brexit and his inept handling of covid, means he deserves such a huge plus in salary compared to a nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 04:57 AM

Do you also think that in these present times, the job of this prime minster based on his lack of achievement with brexit and his inept handling of covid, means he deserves such a huge plus in salary compared to a nurse.

Yes!

Someone, at a pay grade above that of the nurses, needs to ensure that nurses are available at every hospital, and that the flow of nurses to different hospitals is maintained.

Someone else needs to ensure that the government coffers have sufficient money to pay the nurses.

Someone needs to be able to obtain PPE and vaccines in a time of global shortage. They also need to be able to access government (our) funds to pay for these things.
In order to have the funds to buy PPE & vaccines the country needs to have a continuing and effective treasury/economy.

The Left are happy to blame everything on Boris, saying that it is all his responsibility. If the responsibility is his, then the pay should be commensurate with that level of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 05:18 AM

Absolutely cracking article in the Independent on Boris and Covid deaths

Starts with

The prime minister is obviously too sad and grief stricken about the Covid death toll to face the consequences of his government’s mishandling of the pandemic

Which should give a measure of the tone :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 06:42 AM

I would agree, Nigel, that someone with all those responsibilities should be well paid.

But there was an interesting article in the Telegraph that is related to this. It is behind a paywall so you may mot be able to read the full thing, but here is an important paragraph:

This is not a product of one government’s incompetence. It reflects deep-seated changes in the way state power is conceived and organised – by political parties of left and right, not just in Britain but in many other “advanced” economies. A system built around dispersing responsibility, accountability and control is, unsurprisingly, irresponsible, unaccountable, and not in control of its fate.

Most of the things you refer to, Nigel, have been delegated, with the result that the Government says the PPE problems were not theirs, they were PH(E) failures, and so on.

I would say the government does merit those salaries if it is responsible for the things you mention (and others). If, however, it delegates all responsibility it does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 09:45 AM

Let's just say Boris and tory ministers
are lucky they are not remunerated only by performance related salaries..

.. unless we live in a warped universe where negligently killing higher numbers of British citizens
results in more lucrative commissions and pay bonuses...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 11:52 AM

Oh I don't know Punkfolkrocker, just think of the cash savings of not having to pay pensions in the future to 100,000 people and the monies saved by the NHS of not having to treat 100,000 people in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 11:55 AM

Raggy - That's no joke..
A year ago I was cynically convinced tories had started doing those maths...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM

Does anyone have any info on a brexit customs mix up, is what i found correct
A key U.K. government customs system has been overwhelmed within weeks of Brexit and threatens to trigger more disruption as freight traffic increases.

Exporters say they are struggling to acquire transit documents, which allow goods to enter the European Union without delay, because of a shortage of agents with the authority to issue them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 21 - 07:56 AM

It’s correct, there are major problems with both import and export documentation and customs. Some hauliers are now refusing to even pick loads up from customers until all documentation has been submitted to them which, for a number of reasons, is difficult, even impossible in some circumstances.

Shipping Agents are overwhelmed, the HMRC system is overloaded, close to overwhelmed. Customers are playing holy fuck. My wife is the Logistics Operations Manager for the U.K. division of a world-wide petro-chemical company with numerous processing plants in the EU, and they have managed to get three out of around forty shipments across since the 4th January. She’s tearing her hair out, and says that Leave-voters should all be lined up against a wall and machine-gunned.

The dozy buggers didn’t put any of this shit on their big red f***ing bus, did they? All we heard about was ‘sunlit uplands’, ‘take are cuntry back’, and blue passports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 21 - 11:18 AM

Adam Payne reported from live from the House of Parliament:

A penny-drop moment, as Gove admits “there are a number of issues that I would not describe as a teething problems. They are significant issues which bear on the lives of people...”. He calls on GB-NI grace periods (doesn’t say which) to be extended to avoid shortages of goods.
12:59 PM · Feb 2, 2021


Here is the relevant Hansard section:

Michael Gove

My right hon. Friend is right that the problem needs to be addressed both in the short and in the medium to long term. In the short term, there are a number of issues that I would not describe as teething problems; they are significant issues that bear on the lives of people in Northern Ireland, which do need to be resolved. We need to make sure that grace periods are extended. We need to make sure that supermarkets and other traders can continue—as they are at the moment—to be able to supply consumers with the goods that they need. There are a number of specific issues and they extend, as I mentioned earlier, to everything from pet transport to the provision of plants and seeds to gardens in Northern Ireland. The daily life of our fellow citizens does need to be protected and we must deal with all those questions. In the medium to long term, it is important that we take all the steps required to ensure that citizens in Northern Ireland recognise that they are an integral part of the UK and that their daily lives and the way in which this Parliament works reflect that fully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 21 - 04:00 AM

Yes!

Someone, at a pay grade above that of the nurses, needs to ensure that nurses are available at every hospital, and that the flow of nurses to different hospitals is maintained.

Someone else needs to ensure that the government coffers have sufficient money to pay the nurses.
quote above nigel parsons
Boris Johnson has failed in his job, there is a shortage of nurses and empty field hospitals, in my opinion on merit he does not deserve to be paid substantially more than a nurse

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 12:13 AM

Nigel Farage - "Why I'm standing down as leader"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 03:22 AM

That was a nasty trick, Robo. Springing a close up of the man toad himself on us with no warning. Luckily I was too busy being sick to throw my tablet through the window.

Some warning about horror content next time please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 09:23 PM

DtG: Just trying to be careful. As a fan of amphibions I was not aware of the horror content - beauty in the eye of the toad-holder, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 01:19 PM

I can't believe how some threads are closed on here for no apparent reason - or at least far too prematurely. I was posting on the thread re the Royal Family whatsitabout at the moment and said nothing abusive to anyone or anything inflammatory. Then SRS closes the thread saying I was commenting on something I hadn't seen and leaves no way a reply can be made. I thought that was the height of bad manners and quite frankly an abuse of admin powers which I take it he/she has!!!! And the fact I didn't watch the interview itself is irrelevant. There has been nothing else on the news channels and media for the past 30 hours now. I have seen plenty enough to comment on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 01:31 PM

I understand your frustration Allen but please do not sideline this particular thread otherwise this too may be closed.

Personally I couldn't give a flying **** about the topic you mention and do not wish to hear anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 01:41 PM

Fair point Raggy. I have no wish to subvert any thread. Just felt I needed to say that out loud so to speak. Apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 01:43 PM

I went there hoping to correct a mishearing of Oprah that I made due to not having my hearing aids in...I suppose leaving my mistake there won't change the world...

(She said "...What!?" not "...Wow!")

The only political thing I currently have to say is good riddance to Piers Morgan!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 02:34 PM

The news about Piers Morgan really made my day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 05:21 PM

Positive discrimination for one group of people is negative discrimination for everyone else, & BAFTA are now discriminating for BAME & against English - content to do their bit in their NATIVE land.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 05:57 PM

WAV:
There is not a dichotomy between BAME and English.
Someone may be a member of both groups, or of just one, or of neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 06:15 PM

You really shouldn't have needed to be told that, WAV.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 08:31 AM

I open the Observer digital edition this morning to see a young woman face down on the ground with two police officers on top of her, pinning her down to handcuff her. She was attending what had been a peaceful vigil in honour of Sarah Everard.

For Christ's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 10:06 AM

The picture is indeed shocking, however, I have met some extremely violent women in my time and as we don't know what preceded this photograph I would not rush to make a judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 10:55 AM

There's a video clip of the same incident on the Guardian website. The two officers on the woman were men. Take a look: it's very disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 03:58 PM

i have encountered violent policeman and violent women, but more of the former

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:52 PM

In this country we don't deal in summary execution by a policeman without trial and conviction in the street, no matter what past offences we've committed. Your reasoning is, frankly, fatally flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 02:11 PM

I seem to recall that Brexiteers maintained that the world would be our oyster once we had left the EU and we would develop vast new markets for our produce.

An article in the press today paints a somewhat different picture with the export of some produce down 98%.

Collapse of some exports

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 03:38 PM

Of course, the article paints the worst possible picture.
You have to read through to almost the end before you realise they're talking about an apparent 'blip' and that freight volumes were back to their normal levels since the start of February

And that: “A unique combination of factors, including stockpiling last year, Covid lockdowns across Europe and businesses adjusting to our new trading relationship, made it inevitable that exports to the EU would be lower this January than last,” said a spokesperson for the department (DEFRA).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 04:15 PM

Spin it any way you want Nigel but food and drink exports dropped by almost 75%.

Now most of us except that circumstances are different this year but I suspect that few of us realised just how great the impact would be.

The Government, of course, will try to blame Covid or the firms involved for not being up to speed.

In fact they will blame anyone, except themselves of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 05:24 PM

You may not have noticed, I wasn't spinning it. I was quoting directly from the article that you linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:27 AM

Yes Nigel. It was spin and your first "quote" was not direct was it. You said freight volumes were back to normal. The article said overall freight volumes were back to their normal. You of all people should know that omitting the word "overall" makes a world of difference. Given that they had also reported that Overall figures now show that food and drink exports collapsed in January, plunging overall by 75.5% year on year. Down to £256m from £1bn. then I think it is very fair to say that you were trying to divert attention from that fact. Or, to give it another name, spinning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 04:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:52 PM

In this country we don't deal in summary execution by a policeman without trial and conviction in the street, no matter what past offences we've committed. Your reasoning is, frankly, fatally flawed."
who is this directed at

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 05:24 AM

I have a feeling that my post was left hanging among a bunch of deletions, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 05:25 AM

DtG:
Okay, if we're trying to avoid spin maybe we should avoid reading quotes from the Guardian. It hardly ever gives the whole picture.
The January fall in exports to EU was more than matched (in value, if not percentage terms) by a fall of imports from the EU (which they would describe as their exports to us):

Exports of goods, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, fell by £5.3 billion (19.3%) in January 2021, because of a £5.6 billion (40.7%) fall in exports to the EU.

Imports of goods, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, fell by £8.9 billion (21.6%) in January 2021, driven by a £6.6 billion (28.8%) fall in imports from the EU.
from The DNS
They also say: Trade has not been typical in recent months and, because of the practical challenges and temporary factors outlined in Section 3, we would encourage users to apply caution when making short-term comparisons of trade movements.

This makes the point I was making, with no spin applied from either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 08:32 AM

So Nigel, Imports to the UK have fallen, that would suggest that goods that I want to buy are not readily available.

Yet another failing by the government.

I know this on a personal level as goods I ordered back at the beginning of January are still stuck in the distributors in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 10:45 AM

Well done, Nigel. No spin on those figures. Massive falls in imports and exports. We have yet to be convinced that this is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 11:05 AM

One item specifically mentioned in Nigels link was a drop in the import of medicinal and pharmaceutical products.

That, I suspect, many people would find to be of deep concern.

Yet another failure of the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 11:42 AM

Well it will be a few years before we will be able to tell if we are better off for having left. I remain to be convinced that we will be.

One consequence of leaving is that customs entry clerks are in demand. Companies here in Dover are poaching staff from each other. You could class that as a benefit of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 11:51 AM

Yes Rain Dog, it will make a slight impact on the thousands of people who will lose their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 12:02 PM

Well done, Nigel. No spin on those figures. Massive falls in imports and exports. We have yet to be convinced that this is a good thing.
As the DNS link makes clear, those massive falls were for January, and there were several contributory factors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 12:32 PM

Good old Nigel, still trying to polish a turd. And still failing dismally.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 12:56 PM

Hey, BWM, at least he admits that there are massive falls! It's a start :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 02:08 PM

I dread having to prepare the first post brexit VAT return for a client company where all purchases are from France.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 02:23 PM

”I dread having to prepare the first post brexit VAT return for a client company where all purchases are from France.”

I’m so glad I retired from all that crap nine years ago. But Mrs Backwoodsperson is still working as the Logistics Operations Manager for the UK operation of a world-wide petrochemicals company with numerous processing plants in the EU, and considerable shipping between the UK and the EU, both import and export. She says that, despite the Tory propaganda that publications like the Daily Heil, the Torygraph, and the Deadly Express are trying to spread, the movement of goods between the UK and the EU is still a nightmare, and finding hauliers who are prepared to risk getting delayed by problems at the ports is very difficult. Demurrage on ‘stuck’ shipments has already cost her company a fortune, and there seems to no end to it in the short- to mid-term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:43 PM

A lot of tax revenue is going to be lost during this transition phase.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 05:30 PM

New regulations are being introduced, it seems, to fly the Union Flag on all national buildings, with local governments encouraged to do so.

Can singing the national anthem or rule Britannia every morning in school assemblies be far distant?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 05:32 PM

sorry, all national *government* buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 06:20 PM

Not all gvt buildings. Northern Ireland exempt. Not Scotland though. Supposedly to strengthen the union. They really are stupid to a staggering degree. People who are unionists will be OK with the jackery but Yes leaning folk will just be irritated by it. You can't force people's identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 04:11 AM

I agree Allan. In a few weeks time either the SNP will have a majority themselves, or be in an alliance with another independence-inclined group.   I do not see them flying the Union Flag over Holyrood. Nor do I see the Westminster Government can do a thing about it without increasing the support of independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 07:48 AM

Any think that the latest debacle about the EU and vaccine is yet another smokescreen to be added to the ever growing list of lies about the EU?

It's almost as if the brexiteers have realised what a disaster it is turning out to be and are looking for justification for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 07:54 AM

I read about the flags on the front page of today's Telegraph:
The Union flag will be flown from UK government buildings every day after the rules around flag etiquette were rewritten by the Culture Secretary.
New guidance, which will apply from the summer, says all UK government buildings will be asked to fly the flag every day of the year. Currently, union flags are only flown on government buildings on set days.
For buildings with only one flagpole, the guidance says that "the Union Flag should be flown every day except on certain occasions when you may wish to fly other flags", such as the national flags of constituent nations of the UK.

The 'Political Correspondent" (Danielle Sheridan) went on to say:
The Union flag, which was created in its current form in 1801, embodies the emblems of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland
Needless to say I've written a stroppy letter as Wales has no representation on the Union flag. - sloppy reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 12:26 PM

I don't think the Holyrood Parliament would actually be included in the dictat about flying the union flag. It is UK gvt buildings which the instructions are for. So the likes of The Scotland Office and the new Queen Elizabeth House etc. The Holyrood Parliament is a Scottish Gvt building which fall outside the order.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Mar 21 - 08:15 AM

I refuse to agree to my local authority being forced to fly the flag as I am not a neo-nazi flag waving rabid nationalist. If any employees for my local authority obey the law, then they need to be ostracised by society.

On a less ironic note, even thought the above does reflect my feelings, my partner lived through the Soviet rule of Czechoslovakia, and families that failed to demonstrate fealty, for example by not flying the soviet flag from their balconies/windows, would be excluded from opportunities in society.

While I have no problem with being patriotic, and by that I mean living in a beautiful, and supposedly outward looking, safe and welcoming country, I despise the evils that are being carried out 'in the name of my country' and the assumption that if I do not stand side by side with these evils, I am somehow not patriotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 21 - 09:38 AM

"While I have no problem with being patriotic, and by that I mean living in a beautiful, and supposedly outward looking, safe and welcoming country, I despise the evils that are being carried out 'in the name of my country' and the assumption that if I do not stand side by side with these evils, I am somehow not patriotic."

Absolutely spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 21 - 09:43 AM

I would refuse to fight for the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 03:04 AM

Today will be the last day that little Englander British migrants will who have refused to integrate into the local communities on mainland Europe and have not applied for or meet 'right to remain' status will be able to legally stay in continental Europe for the next 90 days.

To mirror what the bigots and xenophobes in the UK have been spouting for the last 5 years, surely the British economy cannot stand a flood of British Migrants returning to the UK and we should be able to cherry-pick those who the state deems 'most useful' and as such those who do not meet the points system as per the new Immigration Act would therefore render themselves stateless and should them have to seek settlement through the asylum process and be treated the same way as other asylum seekers are treated - and with the proposed new draconian rules - sorry, no sympathy from me, particularly as it seems that this group includes the leave voters living overseas.

The only people who I do feel sympathy for are any pro-Europeans who do want to integrate with whichever society they chose to live in - not existing, but those in the future and any European people who wish to integrate into UK society but are considered inferior by the hime office. (Wasn't there a doctrine in Europe in the 1930s and 40s and another up to the 60s in America that looked upon fellow humans as inferior or unworthy?).

It distresses me that I seem to be living in this kind of so-called regressive society which earlier generations fought and laid down their lives to oppose. But at the same time I feel a sense of perverse satisfaction that those who have been hoisted by their own petard are getting their come-uppance.

Here endeth getting my rant out of my system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 05:26 AM

SPB - in the press and meedja, ‘Migrants’ seems only to refer to ‘damn foreigners’ coming into the UK. British people migrating to other countries are, apparently, ‘Ex-Pats’.

Funny how, in the warped minds of flag-wagging, forelock-tugging, grovelling ‘patriots’, ‘migrant’ is a one-way term of abuse, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 12:58 PM

Today will be the last day that little Englander British migrants will who have refused to integrate into the local communities on mainland Europe and have not applied for or meet 'right to remain' status will be able to legally stay in continental Europe for the next 90 days"
Clarification, read above carefully, this applies to Mainland Europe, not the rep of ireland.
I agree with Backwoodsmans points, however it must not be assumed that all expats voted for brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 01:38 PM

900!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 02:27 PM

Irregular noun:

I am an ex-pat.
You are a migrant.
He/she is an illegal immigrant.

I wonder if Spain is going to miss the English pubs and fish and chip shops in Costa Del Pequeña Inglaterra.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 02:43 PM

No doubt like so many countries, Spain will miss the income from tourists and expats. Of course certain places here in the UK will also miss the tourists buying Ye Olde Fish & Chips

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 10:20 AM

Yet another, albeit small, side effect of Brexit we were never told about.

A small company in Scotland manufacturing dog chews is to relocate it's operation to France after it became too difficult to obtain ways through the trade barriers now in place.


link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 01:53 PM

With the damage the government has done to exporters, particularly in the fishing industry, I am surprised that they haven't replaced cash welfare benefits with seafood vouchers.

If some people have severe allergic reactions, then that would be a saving on pensions and universal credit. (irony).

Subject: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 03:58 PM

Today is the day of the Argentine veterans and fallen of the Falklands war. We stood by the Malvinas Memorial in Buenos Aires on April 2 1998, 2000,2002, 2005, 2007, 2008 & 2011. It was very sad to see the mothers crying for their lost sons.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 07:13 PM

Look at a bloody map. Those islands belong to Argentina. The war was all about Maggie getting herself re-elected. So what if a few hundred Argie teenagers were slaughtered. We kept those benighted islands so that the UK can support the lives of a couple of thousand spoiled imperialistic brats.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:15 PM

When that all blew up lots of people in England were puzzled why Argentina should be claiming a bunch of islands off the coast of Scotland.

Maybe when the Scots go for independence the Westminster government, in the dying days of the United Kingdom, will detach the Shetlands from Scottish control, and set up a swap with Argentina so that the Falklands stay English, and the Shetlands go to Argentina.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:45 PM

No matter one's opinion as to the reason for it all, it gave us a very moving song that says nothing about the politics of it.
Some friends of mine were in a pub in England, when the author, just back from The Falklands, sang it from his handwritten copy. They asked to record it, and he agreed.
Here's the words and tune.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Survivor_Leave.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 09:26 PM

Powerful song. Could as well be about survivors from either the Sheffield or the Belgrano. That's true for so many war songs, the best ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 09:55 PM

Yeah.. could be about a number of different events. My friends' group was "The Boarding Party" and taking the lead on that song was Bob Hitchcock, originally from Suffolk. He did an excellent job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 04:36 AM

Saw mention of this in current issue of Private Eye.

More vets are needed now in order to provide documentation for exports to the EU.At this time there is a shortage of them in the UK. Hence the need to relax the rules on English language qualifications for those coming here to fill the vacancies.

Language requirements for veterinarians in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 04:58 AM

You really couldn’t make it up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:20 PM

Since Brexit good news is in short supply, here is some from a friend of mine. Admittedly, it only gets a small part of the haulage business back to where it was in the first place, but every little helps. As it seems to be due to the generosity (and self interest!) of France, I do not expect much praise from the leave side, but there you are.


Guess what. The French have given us Brits back the right to have access to their abnormal load roam permits, yay / phew. I played a key part in this win. I said to our diplomats exactly the right things to make it happen. I am ecstatic. Convoi Exceptionnel Ltd should be fêted in the mass media, but nobody cares enough about transport, so - not, hey-ho, it does mean I can still fit my pride-swollen head through a door... But this is a huge victory for British hauliers, and for many hundreds of UK industries, and a top achievement of my life. Must mention my colleague Caroline Ward, who did some excellent research, that was just as crucial to the win. Also the Heavy Transport Association, esp John Dyne, who is a brilliant and very insightful person. And I adore the French, for doing this. Entente cordiale it still is. Yay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 02:01 PM

Good and bad news.

Start of February Dover District Council announced they were looking to create 100 jobs as they expand the Dover Port Health Authority.

The Department of Transport and the local councils, seem set on creating an inland clearance facility to undertake border controls for up to 1200 trailers. They plan to build very, very near to the local village of Guston. While the jobs created by the building and running of the facility are very welcome, the disruption that will be caused to the villagers and local people will be less welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: mg
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 08:19 PM

i always assumed that Eric Bogle had written it. He recorded it.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 08:50 PM

?? I can't find any mention of Bogle's version. If he really did, I'd like to hear it.

Here's the original recording Survivor Leave. The Boarding Party

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 04:29 AM

Look at a bloody map. Those islands belong to Argentina.

Look at a bloody map. Argentina belongs to those islands.


How about "Those islands belong to the islanders" ?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 05:20 AM

Possession is 10 points of the law. The glorious British Army gave the ill equiped, ill experienced Argentine army, navy and airforce a good biffing!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 05:35 AM

The islanders are all Brits. We promise to defend 'em at hang the expense and we do their foreign dealings for them. They are scarcely independent, are they? We abandoned the islands in the late 18th century and swanned back in in the 19th when we were marauding around the world doing what we liked. So we set up a colony thousands of miles from the British Isles but very close to South America and then claim the right to self-determination for a bunch of Brits. We have steadfastly refused to negotiate this morally-dubious position time and time again. It's very difficult to make the moral argument that we should have dominion over territory so far from home and so close to others' home. Imagine an exclusively Chinese colony occupying Orkney or an exclusively Russian colony occupying the Isle Of Man...

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 05:58 AM

That's all irrelevant, the islands were occupied at the whim of a military dictator, whose foul regime dropped opponents from a helicopter into Rio De La Plata. The. ragtail army largely made up of conscripts who almost certainly didn't want to be there!!'

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 06:31 AM

I'm not really arguing about the rights or wrongs of 1982, am I? Though if you really want me to, I'd say it was like a lot of wars: two lots of bad guys...

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 06:39 AM

Incidentally, Bonzo, your hero Thatcher was supporting an even worse murderous dictator at the time, you know, that bloke in Chile...

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: BobL
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 07:08 AM

Trouble is it wasn't just the Flaklands (a typo, but let it stand). If they'd been surrendered to Argentina, or even made over as part of a negotiated settlement, what would be the effect on Gibraltar? Or Northern Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 07:28 AM

Yes indeed. As with any country, for the most part the Argentines are lovely people, and we have always been made most welcome during our 7 visits there.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 08:46 AM

Little bits of territory with attachments to other countries in principle isn't a bad idea - if we had a little Spanish town in Sussex or. Norwegian enclave in Northumberland for example it could be quite a good arrangements. Being able to go for a trip abroad while staying local might be good, especially for a country confined to an island. I've never heard that the people of Newfoundland have any oroblem with having the French island of St Pierre and Miquelon on their doorstep.

The trouble is, much of the time it's all tied in with a history of foreign conquest and imperialism and si forth. Ii'd be good if it could be sorted out with a bit of territorial exchange, so a foreign enclave on the shores of Spain would be matched by an analogous Spanish enclave on the shores of England, and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM

I suppose by the same argument:-
Ireland belongs to England
England belongs to France

and Hitler was right

Poland belongs to Germany

The Canaries belong to Africa

and I'll have the bloke next door's car if he puts it on my drive again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 12:18 PM

But say it wasn't the bloke next door. Say it was a bloke from 200 miles away who kept parking his car on your drive. You'd have more justification then, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 03:26 PM

If you choose to link up with the bloke from 200 miles away, then it has nothing to do with the bloke next door.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 05:11 PM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 06:05 PM

If the residents of those islands choose to link up with the UK, rather than with Argentina, then that's up to them.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 07:34 PM

A bit of undeliberate gerrymandering cures all, then, Doug...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 02:25 PM

But say it wasn't the bloke next door. Say it was a bloke from 200 miles away who kept parking his car on your drive. You'd have more justification then, no?


Well no. Not in my view. That did actually happen to me. This bloke asked me if he could leave his van on my drive for a night - and it was still there three years later, rusting away.


Probably I should have been more warlike. But its one of my many failings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 02:31 PM

At least he didn't come back, saying that because his van had been there for a long time it was now his drive...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 05:12 PM

maybe not Steve, but it was a damned difficult negotiation and turned very unpleasant several times. My friends tended to get more outraged on my behalf than I was.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Falklands. except maybe when narrow advantage is being pursued - (Like Galtieri's imperial ambitions and the man who thought he was entitled to have a nice drive, but I wasn't)). Then someone has to stand up to them.

Thatcher was being reckless with our defence commitments. Ultimately it was young soldiers who pulled her chestnuts out of the fire.....I don't think she choreographed the entire conflict. The result wasn't that certain, and anyway she wasn't that bright.

Like America has discovered with Trump - you can't really let someone totally irresponsible into the the top job. Argentina paid a heavy price for just that.
And as we discovered with Kinnock and Corbyn - it not the smartest thing to let a complete loser into the Leader of the Opposition job either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 05:24 PM

”And as we discovered with Kinnock and Corbyn - it not the smartest thing to let a complete loser into the Leader of the Opposition job either.”

It seems to be working for the Tories with Johnson though, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 06:04 PM

Johnson is no loser. He's killed tens of thousands of people via sheer incompetence. He's wasting 37 billion on a useless track and trace system. He's trashing the ordinary working people of this country. He's going to waste even more on a pointless passport system. Everything he's doing, he's doing in order to control us ever more. He lies in his teeth at every juncture. But he's nine points ahead in the polls. Believe me, he knows how not to be a loser. The real loser is Starmer, who is bloody useless, and he's leading into perdition millions of ordinary people in this country who at least deserve an opposition that they're not getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 04:39 AM

Cheer up mate! You could be supporting Birmingham City.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 04:47 AM

Johnson may not be a loser, but that pathetic waste of space is now making people fill in customs declarations for sending presents to family and friends in the EU. If that piece of trash wants to inflict unnecessary paperwork on decent people then this has to be down to Hillingdon Council employing a form filler at every post office in the UK instead of wasting tax payers money on education, adult social care, libraries, refuse collection, public health, child protection on a handful of people who live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip which is of no benefit or use whatsoever to the vast majority of the public in the UK. (End of ironic rant).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 05:28 AM

It is the EU who require the declaration for presents sent from the UK to people in the EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 12:05 PM

Customs declarations have to be completed for goods sent everywhere outside the EU. It therefore follows that, as a minority of the electorate sold the majority down the river by voting to Leave the EU, our membership of the EU Customs Union has ended, and we are required to follow the same rules that apply to all other countries outside the EU, which means that Customs Declarations must be completed.

Just another little thing that the Blond Buffoon, the Lying Scottish Viper, and The Wide-Mouthed Frog didn’t put on the side of their God-forsaken big red bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 01:15 PM

Blond Bufoon = Boris
Frog = Farage
Lying Scottish Viper = ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 01:32 PM

That lying, treacherous little scrotum, Gove.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 02:42 PM

I have posted this before. All my own work. See if you can work out who is who, Al :-)

A fable.

Neither long ago nor in a galaxy far away the animal world was in harmony. The farm had grown large and unwieldy but still safe and strong. The sheep lived with the cattle and horses and worried not about the world. They were still hunted but the mighty animals, the lion and the wolf, were kept in check by the powerful elephant and strong wildebeest who had united with the sheep to ensure fairness to all.

However not all was well for the baboon wanted to lead the animals and the toad, with its bulging eyes, saw that the animals that no-one trusted could become powerful if they united against the farm. So the baboon, waving his arms and behaving like a fool, began to gather allies to their cause. The viper that had poisoned everything that it had touched became their friend and the drunken hyena, who used to feed on the weak, turned against the lion for he also wanted more power. They saw that the sheep loved to hear the donkeys bray and whatever the donkeys brayed became the mantra for the sheep. So they befriended the donkeys and told them to bray a song that half the sheep loved and half the sheep hated. This way the sheep became disunited and fought amongst themselves, ignoring the insidious manoeuvring of the unholy alliance.

“See how the farm steals your hard earned fodder,” brayed the donkeys.
“Remember how much better things were when the lion ruled you.” They sang across the land.

But the song that did the most harm was “Look at the rabbits. The farm let them in. They are eating all your grass and it is their fault that the lion eats your kin.” For this not only divided the sheep but also caused much resentment against the innocent rabbit.
So, the lion, the wolf, the elephant and the wildebeest sat together to determine what was to be done. None would lead, as they knew that whatever they did the baboon, the frog, the viper and the hyena would tell the donkeys to bray against them and the sheep would become more discontent. The mighty animals saw that the only way to silence to unholy ones was to ask the sheep who they wished to rule them. But they had not seen how divided the sheep had become and they did not understand that many would believe the donkeys over them. Half the sheep wanted to stay safe in the farm and the other half wanted the new life promised by the others. So they began to fight amongst themselves until, at last, none of them knew what was the truth and what was not.

The bald eagle and the bear, who had been bitter enemies in the past, joined with the voice of the donkeys as they wanted to rule the entire animal kingdom and saw that while the farm survived it would be in their way. The baboon and the frog knew that this was the perfect time for them to begin their reign so the sheep were forced to decide between living in thrall on the farm or trying to survive on their own in the jungle. They were evenly divided but one more sheep wanted to try the jungle than wanted to stay on the farm. So they were all forced out. The lion shook his head in disbelief and left. The frog grinned with his wide mouth. The baboon frolicked and the donkeys sang his praises while the sheep who wanted to stay in the farm wept.

Many ages later a new alliance formed. It is outside our fable to say what it will be. But the sheep survived. The lion still ate some. The old ones still went for mutton. The donkeys still brayed.
And the children were still sent to market…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 07:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 04:39 AM

Cheer up mate! You could be supporting Birmingham City. quote
you could be supporting Brechin City, or sheffield united

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 07:11 AM

Good that police in Northern Ireland used water cannon against rioters, now it should be used against troublemaking agitators in Bristol and elsewhere!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 07:23 AM

Not sure if this counts as 'political', but UK news is going to be wall-to-wall Prince Philip for who knows how long.
It will be interesting to see how the islanders in Vanuatu take the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 11:41 AM

During WW2, Princess Elizabeth (as was) was quite keen on going through what the rest of the population was, in the ATS, training as a mechanic and so on.

It would be quite something if she decided that the covid rules for funerals should apply to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 05:18 AM

As from tomorrow up to 30 people can attend funerals. I understand that at Philips funeral the royal family intend to adhere to that. Good on them but it is difficult to see how they could do anything else. Of course if it was, heaven forbid, any of Boris's family there would be an exeption...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 05:24 AM

Elsewhere.... indeed ...Troublemaking agitators in Croydon should be silenced, perhaps capital punishmen, take agitators from croydon and put them in the stocks in the capital

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:02 AM

{{Deep, Heartfelt Sigh}}

Dick, all of Bonzo’s Prince Philip threads have been closed or **disappeared**, presumably because of posters’ bad behaviour. Please don’t get this, our one permitted U.K. Politics thread, closed too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:13 AM

I note that the Beeb has been so overwhelmed by complaints that they have grossly overdone the tributes that a dedicated web page for complaints has been opened. In turn, the vicious anti-Beeb brigade has accused the Beeb of thereby positively encouraging complaints. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'd also add that "declaring eight days of national mourning" has the distinct ring of totalitarianism about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:35 AM

It certainly has something of a ring of ‘totally-OTT’ about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:47 AM

And here we go again with Tory sleaze, lots of dodgy (though still technically legal) lobbying and cronyism going on. The worrying thing is that these things don't seem to matter any more. The more bad things the Tories do, the higher their poll ratings go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 06:43 AM

The mourning period is probably an established royal protocol.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 08:03 AM

Yes it is, and quite rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 08:13 AM

You may care to look at the recently filed accounts of Brick by Brick Croydon Ltd on the Companies House website, which has the most qualified auditor's report I have ever seen - the company being the play thing of the most useless labour council in the UK!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 08:29 AM

Imposed mourning has a real feel of North Korea about it...

Is it OK to not mourn and turn off all the guff on the telly?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 08:31 AM

how exciting a chance of reading filed accounts of Brick by Brick Croydon Ltd on the Companies House website,Yippee

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 01:13 PM

She played a massive part when it came to keeping Thatcher in power. A lightweight, unprincipled opportunist. No tears this end.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 01:57 AM

who has died?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 02:52 AM

i am guessing you must be talkimg about shirley williams?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 04:10 AM

That's the one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 08:21 AM

I'll put it on Facebook, I'm not a good texter
I've just seen Prince Philip's spectre
I knew it was him, with my medium's knack.
He still had both hands behind his back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 02:26 PM

Which words are we not allowed to say...???

I might need a little reminder,
as I've been absent away from strict mudcat community dictates
too much this year...

A bit like a young Amish returning home,
after a short taste of freedom in the big outside English world...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Apr 21 - 02:46 PM

To misquote Melvin "Sy" Oliver and James "Trummy" Young.

Tain't What You Say (It's the Way That You Say it)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 10:25 AM

When Mandela passed we endured a week of curated retrospectives which didn't add much to the global level of intelligence. And that was pre-Trump.

In the wake of Prince Philip, for some reason BBC 4Extra abandoned their regular programming and were mirroring BBC 4 which was mirroring BBC World Service. They're back to normal now but it was rather puzzling as I didn't see or hear any explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 03:50 AM

It's Phil's funeral today. I guess it will be televised? I won't go out of my way to watch it but it would be interesting to see who talks to Harry!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 04:09 AM

..... it would be interesting to see who talks to Harry!

Interesting? Hmmm? ....... Nah! - it wouldn't.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 04:50 AM

It's so sad that the Queen lost her husband and her cousin on the same day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 05:23 AM

Can I stop mourning after today please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 06:38 AM

I was totally unaware that the queen had lost a cousin. Which one, assuming she has more than one? The news might have reached me, although only of passing interest, except that no other news was allowed that day - no Boris, no covid deaths or vaccinations, no brexit trade snarl-ups, no random shooting, probably no football (but that's one thing I wouldn't have noticed, never mind missed), no, just no anything ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 07:49 AM

Jos:
I think it was a reference to both Elizabeth & Philip being descended from Victoria.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 09:27 AM

Oh, I see - a rather distant cousin, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 09:41 AM

International royals are interbred for pedigree.
But like Crufts,
caution and limits must be observed to avoid the worst consequences of over closely related interbreeding.

Funny how our national mascot bulldog
is so riddled with chronic degenerative genetic health deficiencies..

At least the royal breeders have so far managed to enhance the life expectancy
of the best specimens of their designer offspring.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 12:08 PM

Third cousins. Not that distant.

It's a fairly limited gene pool - I wouldn't be surprised if the Queen's corgis had haemophilia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 12:15 PM

Well, I just watched Fils phuneral and it was pretty spectacular. Us Brits do pomp and circumstance well. If nowt else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 21 - 03:11 PM

GREENSILL COLlAPSE ,what has been going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 05:13 AM

Ithought an accountant might be able to explain, was Denis Skinner right, was david cameron, dodgy dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 05:28 AM

"Ithought an accountant might be able to explain"

And if an accountant had explained, would you have believed it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 06:54 AM

I didn't watch the funeral but I keep seeing the picture of her majesty sitting all alone and sad.

I also saw a photograph of her sitting in the same pew, with Prince Andrew sitting in the next-but-one seat. So she wasn't really on her own.

I can only assume he got up to do his speech, and the photographer(s) took the opportunity to take an "emotional" picture.

Tell me if I am wrong, anyone who did watch. Otherwise, it just looks like press manipulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:04 AM

Jos, he was sitting well away - at least three or four seats - from the Queen, and he didn’t ‘get up to make his speech’, there were no family speeches, just the Dean, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and another guy in fancy-dress doing their stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:32 AM

A later BBC news headline was [paraphrased from memory]

"Two brothers speak to each other at family funeral*

ferfaksake,,,!!!???



Tomorrow's dramatic breaking news..

"Siblings don't always get on well with each other - further reports throughout the day
as the the situation devekops....!!!"...

wot a load of bollocks...


I've got cousins - two sisters - who live next door to each other on a council estate,
and they've refused to speak to each other for years,
f@k knows what they fell out about,
Who gives a shit...

Maybe the BBC news channel...???


No, funnily enough I didn't bother watching the royal funeral...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 08:46 AM

This is the picture I saw - maybe a two-seat gap, but really not far apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 09:02 AM

Still a simple matter to zoom in for a close-up, or crop that shot down to a close-up of the Queen, giving the impression of ‘loneliness’ is all I’m saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 09:08 AM

Pfr, I watched it last night, but only from the bit where the band was playing just before he was loaded on to the Landrover - I couldn’t be arsed with all the sycophantic bullshit and bollocks of the preceding couple of hours. Although I’m not particularly enamoured of the Royals, I did regard his death and funeral as very significant events in our history and, as such, worthy of my attention.

But it’s each to his own, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 09:21 AM

I saw a little bit of the synchronised funny skip walk behind the coffin...

Now I genuinely admire highly skilled and disciplined military precision,
but they know just how daft they can look...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 08:38 AM

Regularly updated tally of job losses due to Brexit:

The Digby Jones Index

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 09:55 AM

Is this a political thing? It is British but might be New News Not About The Virus...

Putting fat kids in foster care?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 12:43 PM

I can imagine it might happen anywhere if the parents are deliberately making their kids dangerously obese. Or in cases of Prader-Willi syndrome where the parents can't cope.

There's no policy about it anywhere I know of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 01:34 PM

Who was making it news, anyway? Murdoch or Taiwanese-fascist-owned media?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 02:01 PM

My link did not work, sorry!

https://slate.com/technology/2021/04/child-separation-weight-stigma-diets.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 04:26 PM

Weirdly twisted article, obviously a collective effort by a bunch of actvists with bugs up their collective arse. (Slate seems to be controlled by a few "libertarian" cranks).

"Morbidly obese" means life-threatening illness. It would give the kids more chance in life if their parents simply sodomized them every night. Of course social services aren't going to let children get forced into slow death.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Apr 21 - 02:15 PM

Some news from Kent

++

Two major measures to avoid HGV congestion after Brexit are being removed in the coming days.

The first to go will be the Kent Access Permit, a document that ensured all lorry drivers had the correct paperwork to cross the border.

Legally-required by all heavy goods drivers entering the county, as of today they will not be needed.

The second scheme to be removed is the M20 contraflow system, with work beginning on Saturday
++

Ferry news

A new freight service is to be launched between Kent and France, creating around 100 jobs.

Ferry operator DFDS says the new freight-only service will start operating between Sheerness and Calais from June.

It will offer one daily sailing in each direction between the two ports on ship Gothia, which can carry up to 165 unaccompanied freight units - which are trailers or containers without drivers.

++
A leading union has hit out at plans for Irish Ferries to run a Dover to Calais service later this year - accusing it of having "an appalling safety record" and crewing its vessels "almost entirely with eastern European seafarers".

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT) says it fears for jobs and the local economy could be at risk when the cross-Channel service launched in June.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 21 - 02:24 PM

interesting does this mean more bureucracy?
What was the necessity of the kent access permit, it must have been unworkable

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Apr 21 - 02:31 PM

The Kent Access Permit was a scheme introduced to avoid freight vehicles arriving at the ports without the correct export documentation. The fear was that there would be long queues of traffic stuck in Kent. That problem seems to have been avoided. Now people are more aware of what export documentation is required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 04:27 AM

brexit + covid + Ever Given = most items on my Amazon wishlist
becoming out of stock, or substantially increasing in price...

[..and severely restricted delivery options for items from Amazon EU]

In 2021 brexiteers are so lucky they have pandemic and a shipping traffic jam to shift the blame on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 03:17 PM

From The Guardian

Former veterans’ minister Johnny Mercer has launched an extraordinary attack on Boris Johnson’s government, describing it as a “cesspit” and “the most distrustful, awful environment I’ve ever worked in”.

And

This is the most distrustful, awful environment I’ve ever worked in, in government. Almost nobody tells the truth is what I’ve worked out over the last 36 hours.

“And, you know, I don’t think anyone really can get on their high horse about trust and ethics and all the rest of it in politics, because as far as I’m concerned, most of it is a bit of a cesspit.”

Ex-minister unhappy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 21 - 07:54 AM

Oh, and to anyone but the pickest of nit pickers, BWMs remark was an obvious joke. Of course your response could be a joke too but you are abit less transparent than BWM so it is difficult to tell!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Apr 21 - 08:14 AM

Frankly, my dears, I don’t give a damn! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 21 - 12:55 PM

OOO! Looks like I get to claim 1000 this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 21 - 01:07 PM

Ouch!
It is sad to see the PM and his office fall so far below the standards of competence and integrity the country deserves

I am no fan of Cummings, but I have to agree with him on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Apr 21 - 01:57 PM

Yet again you have to ask who is advising the PM on PR. Is it the same people who were advising the ESL clubs? How some people get paid I will never know.

Will this end up the 1000th post?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 04:36 AM

Well done for the 1000 Dave :-)

Couldn't agree more about Cummings. Shifty sod that he is, he has shown in his blog that Bozzer and his pals are a devious and corrupt bunch. I think that they will try to get away with it by brazening it out but it will come back to bite their bums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 07:17 AM

Excellent piece in today’s Independent - I wonder what our resident apologists for the corrupt crooks of the Tory government will have to say about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 07:44 AM

"resident apologists" or people who just don't agree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 10:27 AM

Anyone trying to justify the corruption of the current administration is an apologist, Rain Dog. If you disagree with that, fine. It still makes you an apologist so your last remark does not make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 10:36 AM

Damned if you apologize, damned if you don't.
Does justifiable corruption exist? It depends on who you defend.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 11:35 AM

No, sorry Donuel. Apologising for not acknowledging black and Asian troops who were killed in WW1 is acceptable. Trying to justify a government that gets its friends rich by corruption is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 03:25 PM

”resident apologists" or people who just don't agree with you?”

Whether they agree with me is irrelevant. It’s not a case of opinion, evidence of the corruption of Ali Baba Johnson and The Forty Thieves is piling up. My question is, how will their bewitched and delusional supporters attempt to naysay that evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 01:30 AM

perhaps a law should be passed that MPS should not have any outside representation, that they should only be paid to represent their constituents.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 02:18 AM

of course, i've always thought that representing the interests of 60-70,000 constituents would be a full-time job. doing any other job at the same time would inevitably lead to a conflict of interests and of your MP's time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 02:33 AM

Looks as though the worms may be turning - even the Daily Heil giving negative reports on Johnson. With the negative reporting currently happening, and his former chief advisor openly inserting the blade between his 3rd and 4th ribs, the campaign to oust Johnson before Christmas seems to be ramping up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 02:48 AM

Trouble is, who would replace him? We need someone honest, truthful and compassionate. I don't think there is anyone amongst the current crew who fits the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 03:57 AM

The problem is that the Conservative Party is dedicated to a culture of selfishness and greed, and is mired in deceit and corruption. In that regard, one Tory is very much like the next - the only answer is for Labour to defeat them soundly at a GE but, while the LP is more interested in fighting internal wars and undermining its own leadership that it is in fighting the worst, most corrupt Tory government in living memory, there’s little or no chance of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 05:11 AM

”...fighting internal wars and undermining its own leadership that it is in fighting the worst, most corrupt Tory government in living memory...”

Than it is...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM

Signs that we are coming out of lockdown and returning to normality..

The tory backstabbing and throat cutting competition reality show is back on our TVs..

It's always guaranteed top entertainment, and never disappoints keen viewers.
Fans of the show can look forward to a thrilling new season of all the usual ruthless ambition deceit and sleaze
that keeps viewers glued to the screen..

Insider rumours hint this could be a return to the thrills and chilling horrors of the greatest unforgettable villains off classic seasons of the past..

If speculation is true that this might be the last series, we can hope for a gloriously spectacular finale of bloodletting and gore.
With the prospects of future sequels and spin offs, with new cast members and some surviving old Favourites..

Who will they be, is it too much to hope for the shocking surprise return of fan favorites from earlier seasons...???

I'm getting too excited already...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 03:20 AM

Never sure which thread to use for any subject that has any connection to the UK

From the BBC this morning

"All fixed penalty notices for Covid lockdown breaches, which can be as high as £10,000, should be reviewed - according to a parliamentary committee.

The system is "muddled, discriminatory and unfair", MPs on the Joint Committee on Human Rights argued.

More than 85,000 fixed penalty notices have been issued in England since the pandemic began, and 8,000 in Wales."

Lockdown fines should be reviewed

Hopefully when things finally return to normal, it will be interesting to see how many of these have been paid and/or if they are found to have been invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 04:14 AM

Selfish arseholes who flagrantly defied lockdown restrictions, safe distancing, and mask wearing
should not now be let off any fines they received for risking other citizen's health and lives..

This would now send all the wrong signals to the ideologues, zealots, agitators, and all other anti social libertarian covid denier wankers..

Especially the lethal organized element within the tory govt...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 06:42 AM

From today's Guardian reporting on the same matter.

"Large fixed penalties awarded irrespective of the individual’s circumstances “risk being inherently unjust” and the current system “criminalises the poor over the wealthy”, the committee members warn.

They say there should a graduated approach to FPN amounts and people should not face a criminal record for non-payment, questioning “why a breach of the coronavirus regulations would be relevant to someone’s future employment prospects or ability to travel to certain countries”."

All Covid fines in England should be reviewed say MPs

I think if these cases go to court quite a few will end up being dismissed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 07:53 AM

Any labour or liberal politicians backing this crackpot review of fines,
needs to pull their heads out of their arses..

.. and consider the ramifications
of a long summer of selfish reckless fuckwits who know there won't be any punishments for wilfully disobeying rules, and spreading the next lethal wave amongst us..

It's easy to understand tories not wanting to lose their new working class voters at any cost.
But now it appears even the likes of Harriet Harman are putting gaining back votes over heaping piles of thousands of bodies.

She's either blatantly cynical or very naive...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 08:55 AM

I don't think they are saying do away with the regulations and enforcement of the regulations. There is mention of 65 changes to the regulations since first introduced. Some police forces have said that the regulations and subsequent changes have been confusing at times. It also remains to be seen if the law has been applied correctly or not.

Will all the fines be paid? I think it is safe to say that they will not. It remains to be seen if they will prosecute people for non payment, given the huge backlog of court cases that we already have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 09:33 AM

Ok, the rules governing fines were carelessly bodged and hastily rushed through by a consistently inept government..

That's easy enough for folks not to disagree with.

This has left the police confused and occasionally overzealous.

But this new committee review will inevitably be appropriated to suit the agenda of opportunist right-wing libertarians,
taking advantage of kind hearted misguided lefty liberal human rights advocates..

The end results being even more positive signals sent out to society's arsholes to continue wilfully riding a wave spreading disease throughout the summer and autumn.

How big a pile of thousands of bodies can be costed in as acceptable collateral damage;
just so a committee of politicians and other idealogues can wallow in their own self-indulgent academic legalistic principles...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 09:56 AM

I didn't need the threat of fines to keep me from following the recommendations. I think it is safe to say that the majority of people didn't need that threat either.

I have guessed that a lot of your previous posts are intended to raise a smile pfr, with your right wing this and your right wing that. I hope that your lurch to authoritarian views,and your dismissal of any contrary views, are not symptoms of either long covid, covid induced psychosis or merely the intended results of the vaccine.

Sunny day here today and a little warmer. I am off to the pub shortly and hope to avoid picking up any fines on my way there and back.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 10:14 AM

Staying safe is my primary principle,
They're all trying to kill me...

By the way, nowt wrong with being a lefty with a respect for discipline..

On law and order issues my views would make many mail and express reader "hang 'em then flog 'em then hang 'em again" tories feel uncomfortably queasy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 21 - 02:44 PM

MPs urge Government to level playing field for meat and seafood exporters

"In its new report—Seafood and Meat Exports to the EU—the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (EFRA) Committee expresses urgent concerns for exporters of highly time-sensitive fresh and live seafood and meat shipments to the EU, particularly small and medium sized businesses.

Despite overcoming initial "teething problems" the new barriers small seafood and meat export businesses face could render them unviable, and factories and jobs may relocate to the EU."

And

"The Committee criticises the fact that controls on EU seafood and meat imports will not commence until 1 October 2021, with checks at the border only commencing from 1 January 2022.

This has placed British businesses at a competitive disadvantage and reduced the incentive on the European Commission to negotiate measures that would lessen the burdens facing British producers."


Seafood and Meat Exports to the EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 10:40 AM

Would any of our resident Brexiteers care to comment on or argue against Poly Toynbee's analysis of Brexit?

Johnson’s legacy will be the bitter taste of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 08:24 PM

Dave:
I thought I'd give it a go. She doesn't make it difficult to disagree with her.
First paragraph (from your link):
Amid slippages, losses, vanishing investments and export drops, the drip, drip of Brexit damage never stops. I collect examples every week, as if picking up spent mortar rounds from a battlefield. On Wednesday, it was 450 jobs lost as car parts manufacturer Toyoda Gosei prepares to shut factories in Rotherham and Swansea, and relocate to the Czech Republic.
The link she gave in that paragraph, supposedly to support her argument was to the BBC. Unfortunately the BBC article says: The company, which produces components for Toyota, Nissan, Renault and Honda, said it was responding to changes in the global sector and a "significant reduction" in UK customer demand. AND "There isn't one factor that has resulted in the announcement today," added a spokeswoman.
Nowhere in the BBC article do they blame Brexit. (although they do link to yet a further BBC article about generalised problems with the supply chain) So if Polly Toynbee is putting links in her articles maybe she thinks no-one will read the links, but just assume that she's giving supporting evidence.

Then, after using a headline saying: Forget curtains and cash – Johnson’s legacy will be the bitter taste of Brexit in the second paragraph she goes on to discuss the wallpaper for Downing Street. Consistancy of message? No!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 21 - 02:07 AM

It is more the premise of her article that I was interested in, Nigel. I I would have thought the "Johnson's legacy" bit would have indicated that but sorry for not making it clear enough. Here is the opening salvo fired at Bozzer.

But history will record one great political crime above all the others, his tawdry dishonesties mere illuminations round its edges. The delinquent who miss-sold Brexit to half the nation with a stardust of false promises to secure himself the throne will leave behind the Brexit breakages long after he has gone.


And it concludes against him

Wallpaper and lies may bring Johnson down, but Brexit is the crime against the country for which he will be for ever damned. Riots and the fall of Arlene Foster imperil the peace agreement in Ireland, and the UK’s breakup is on a knife edge.

Regardless of her reasons and politics, do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 May 21 - 05:48 AM

Regardless of her reasons and politics, do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?

No! (in answer to the direct question)

I don't consider that Boris has mismanaged or mis-sold Brexit. He had a poor starting position because of the position left by Theresa May. I still believe that Brexit will have been a positive move for the country in general.
As for his legacy, yes, he is more likely to be remembered for Brexit than for the refurbishment of 11 Downing Street. He is also more likely to be remembered for his handling of Covid.
In the 'great scheme of things' how the refurbishment was paid for is a minor matter which should not distract from the more important issues facing the country.
But of course, there are elections pending (particularly in Scotland and Wales) so jumping on this could be seen as the opportunism of the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 21 - 06:56 AM

OK, thanks Nigel. You gave a direct answer of 'no' to whether the mismanagment of brexit was more important than lying about the refurbishment of his flat so you must consider the latter to be more important. On the other hand, you say that Bozzer will be remembered more for brexit. How can that be if you consider it a less important issue than his curtains?

Yes, I know that you belive that brexit is a good thing and that eventually we will be better off. That is against the views of the vast majority of economists and business leaders who tell us that it may be decades, if ever, before we recover from the move. Nothing wrong with swimming against the tide but please don't blame anyone else if you drown and try to ensure you don't take anyone else with you. Of course you may believe that the insubstantial concept of "sovereignty" is more important than our long term well being. Many do. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 May 21 - 07:04 AM

The Tories started off this Scottish election with constant attacks on Sturgeon and did she break the ministerial code. There was several weeks of it with the media suggesting she was in the point of having to resign. In truth nobody much in the population at large very much cared if she heard about the allegations against Salmond several days before she initially said. It blew over eventually and no doubt dented the initial campaign a wee bit but not seriously. They are ending it now with their own UK leader under the spotlight. Not sure if that will make much difference in the scheme things. If Labour come in 2nd rather than the Tories I think it would be down to Sarwar appearing more sensible than Ross more than what Boris has or hasn't done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 21 - 07:27 AM

It is not a minor matter. It is an abuse of the privileges of high office. It is, in essence, the same kind of amorality/immorality that leads to the enrichment of dictators and their hangers-on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 21 - 07:35 AM

Agreed, Steve. But it will not damage the country as much as brexit! Bozzer has a track record of lying, cheating and bullying yet he was so popular that he gained a massive majority. We need to ask ourselves why and, as a member of the Labour party at the time, I consider it to be as much my fault as anyone's that the mandate to continue lying, cheating and bullying was handed to him on a plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 21 - 08:20 AM

however keir starmer does not seem to be leading the party any more effectively than corbyn, he is imo no more effective at pm question time and has as much charisma as the moving statue. keir starmer the moving statue of st pancreas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 21 - 03:31 PM

Whatever our resident Tory apologists say, however they wriggle, no matter how they manipulate their weasel-words, the plain, simple truth - undeniable except by those too blinded by Tory propaganda and dogma to see - is that Johnson is an habitual liar who cares about no-one but himself, utterly devoid of shame or morals, and totally unsuitable to be the leader of the United Kingdom..

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/scandal-charge-sheet-johnson-wallpaper-lying?fbclid=IwAR0rXmSukafl8GedXIRs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 May 21 - 03:53 PM

OK, thanks Nigel. You gave a direct answer of 'no' to whether the mismanagment of brexit was more important than lying about the refurbishment of his flat so you must consider the latter to be more important. On the other hand, you say that Bozzer will be remembered more for brexit. How can that be if you consider it a less important issue than his curtains?

Again, No!.
The question I answered was yours: do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?

By saying "No!" that does not mean that I think curtains are more important. I do not agree with her conclusion that a) Johnson has mismanaged Brexit, or b) That his treatment of Brexit was a crime.

My answer of "No!" was in response to your question of whether I agreed with her conclusion. Do not try to read into it something which isn't there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 May 21 - 03:58 AM

Nigel - do you disagree that boris would repay your loyalty
by throwing you under a bus
if his own benefit and survival were at stake...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 21 - 06:30 AM

from labours point of view who would be the party leader most likely to .lose for the tories gove patel johnson or sunak

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 21 - 07:13 AM

Typical political answer, Nigel. Like Bozzer going on about the virus when asked a direst question about his breaking parliamentary rules. All bluster and no substance. Little wonder he is your pin up boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 May 21 - 11:03 AM

Dave:
Typical political answer, Nigel
Not a 'political' answer. I answered the question you phrased. If the question is so badly phrased that a straightforward answer can be so easily (or deliberately) misunderstood then that is the fault of the person asking the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 21 - 01:33 PM

OK. I'll make it simple. Is the mismanagement of brexit a more serious issue than breaching parliamentary procedure and then lying about it?

A simple yes or no will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 May 21 - 06:07 PM

We elect politicians of whichever party to govern the country. They are public servants, we expect them to hold to certain standards and they are beholden to not to abuse the positions we have elected them to hold.

Johnson by evading to answer what should have been a simple question is thus ensuring a very expensive inquiry will have to take place and therefore compounding the insult he may have inflicted upon the British public.

A VERY simply way to have avoided this was to answer the question of who paid for the refurbishment of his apartment at No 11 Downing Street in a truthful and straightforward manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 21 - 02:15 AM

Johnson in a truthful and straightforward manner?

You're having a laugh Raggy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 03 May 21 - 03:19 AM

Do we know that it HAS been paid yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 21 - 11:16 AM

Boris, you are in too much hot water over corruption accusations, far too close to elections.

You better resort too distracting voters with strong suggestions you'll lift safe distancing and travel restrictions even earlier asap in June.

Just remember to qualify it with 'as data allows" while you cross your fingers behind your back and give a sly wink and nod to camera..

And don't give into those trouble making complaining lefties who are so afraid of such irrelevant trifling matters as piles of bodies.

Ignore the soft commie twats...



You know, I think I missed my true vocation as a tory party advisor...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 21 - 11:46 AM

i reckon the consevatives will ditch him

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 21 - 12:16 PM

Remember that we had egg on our faces when predicting he'd be ditched within weeks of winning the election.
Going down on record as the shortest lasting PM ever..

I definitely got that prediction wrong,
that the tories would use his bare faced dishonest populism to win.
Them boot him out at the first opportunity he f***** up
( with some typical stupid bad PR misdemeanor)
In order to bring in their all along first choice more hardline further right replacement..

He's a cunning bastard born survivor,
and he knows just how ruthless his backstabbing ministers will be...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 May 21 - 12:30 PM

Let's see what happens in Hartlepool on Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 21 - 01:04 PM

well the bookies have the tory candiate at 4 to 7 on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 21 - 04:27 PM

OK. I'll make it simple. Is the mismanagement of brexit a more serious issue than breaching parliamentary procedure and then lying about it?

In my opinion, Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 21 - 02:45 AM

Thank you Nigel. That is what Polly Toynbee was saying!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 07:57 AM

Prince Charles does he have an illegitimate son?
GOSH HOW UPSETTING FOR OUR NOW ABSENT ROYAL WORSHIPPER.he must be barking and frothing at the month ,well dorante day better mid himself or else he will have an accident like diana

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 21 - 08:08 AM

Wouldn’t a DNA-test determine the veracity of Simon Dorante-Day’s claim to be the spawn of Charles and Camilla, and put an end to the newspaper/FarceBook talk?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 21 - 08:13 AM

Only partially absent, but twice as mean!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:11 AM

On another, far more important topic, it appears that a design has been put forward for a new, £200 million royal yacht....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/exclusive-britannia-rule-waves-new-royal-yacht-named-prince/

Another enormous waste of taxpayers’ money, but at least it’ll give the royal-worshippers and flag-waggers the pleasure of a huge orgasm....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:17 AM

i agree backwood

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 21 - 08:51 PM

As John Bercow said on QT tonight, if you believe that sending the gunboats to Jersey on Election Day is a coincidence, you'll believe anything. That's how Boris does it. You don't need morals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 12:57 AM

Sadly, Steve, his blatant opportunism chimes with the feeble-minded and the brainwashed. Suckers will be suckers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 01:05 AM

first the people of hartlepool hung a monkey now they are electing one

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 02:43 AM

i even heard some reporter say this LATEST ELECTION defeat was Corbyns fault

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:41 AM

On the gunboat issue: it is slightly more complicated than Boris sending them in on election day, because he could only send them in response to the French fishing fleet. And they were entirely free to choose what day the action took place. It could be the day after the voting equally easily as the day before. Had it been the day after, Johnson could have sent the patrol boats and it would have had no impact on the votes, because they would have been cast already.

I would say, though, that given the French had decided to turn up just before the vote, Johnson almost certainly reacted by sending in the patrol boats because it would 'sell well to the Brexit supporters' who were about to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:58 AM

He didn't have to send them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 05:47 AM

That’s exactly the point Steve. Sabre-rattling, designed to please the Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade, the flag-waggers, and the simple-minded ones who fall for the government’s Nationalistic, Right-Wing propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 06:13 AM

I see that monkey hangers are now monkey huggers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 21 - 06:15 AM

"feeble-minded and the brainwashed. Suckers will be suckers..."

"Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade, the flag-waggers, and the simple-minded ones"


Terrible things elections. The sheer effrontery of some people deciding to vote differently from oneself. Surely there must be a way of disenfranchising these automatons in any future elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 07:12 AM

No-one is suggesting that, but it's perfectly possible to bemoan the fact that there is a severe deficit in political education which leads people to choose to vote against their own interests. 'Twas ever thus: in the 70s, when we suggested properly structured political education in schools we were shot down as extreme commie reds under the beds. Nothing suits the Tories better than an ignorant electorate. It makes many people prone to being impressed more by a fat idiot driving a JCB through a wall of polystyrene blocks, or riding a bike lustily in a faked photograph, than any consideration of the important issues of the day. They are prone to not minding too much a serial liar or fornicator either. Send out the gunboats and grab some votes! Political ignorance has delivered the world Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, Dubya, Donald Trump and our own resident clown. They are all far more of a threat to democracy than us lot here moaning about bad voter decision-making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 07:15 AM

It speaks volumes that you don’t actually deny the truth of those epithets, RD, you simply put up a straw-man. Perhaps you’d care to provide proof of where I’m wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 07:26 AM

Good post Steve. Absolutely right on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:03 AM

I am not a fan of people who choose to insult those who think or act differently.

I don't know why the people of Hartlepool voted the way that they did. I don't have that insight that some of you seem to possess. Of course the people who voted conservative did not necessarily all have the same reasons for doing so. But it was their right to vote as they wanted.

Political ignorance? How many times have you heard people say that they have always voted for a party because their parents and maybe their grandparents voted that way. Should we stop them from voting? Should you only be able to vote if you have achieved the pass mark in one
of Steve's exams? I can just imagine the arguments about the curriculum for that subject.

These are strange times that we are living in when so many of you have such low opinions of your fellow citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:19 AM

Should you only be able to vote if you have achieved the pass mark in one of Steve's exams?

Of course not and, yet again, you are setting up another straw man.

I do believe however that those responsible for deciding the fate of others, ie the electorate, should have at least some understanding of what they are voting for and the what the consequences of their decisions are likely to be. The best way of doing this is to educate the electorate from an early age. It is too late for those, like us, already set in our ways but for those as yet to vote there is plenty of opportunity to do this in a completely non partisan manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:41 AM

"What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?"

Well, as they have followed different paths through school, have different talents and abilities (or disabilities) and all progress at different rates, there's no answer to that, is there? I could say a basic level of numeracy and literacy, but one student's good is another student's bog-standard is another student's impossible. I could say they should have a well-rounded, intelligent and sociable outlook on life, but, grand though that sounds, it's just waffle. I could say sympathy and tolerance for all other humans, and a high level of environmental consciousness, but ditto. I could say that the generations above them have the responsibility to pass on all the best of what they themselves have learned, so that the young 'uns can stand on the shoulders of giants, but gosh, that's mired in all sorts of murk, innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:51 AM

Neither I nor anyone else here has even remotely suggested that anyone should be denied the vote on the grounds of their education/ignorance/voting predilections, or should have to pass any test, and predicating your argument on that premise marks you as vexatious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 09:04 AM

Of course we haven’t, Steve. Just more Straw-Men - no surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 21 - 10:38 AM

Vexatious?

What's next? Asking the mods to stop me from posting? That is the usual tactic here isn't it?

I don't like the way some of you denigrate and insult those people who dare to vote for parties or ideas that you don't like.

I am bemused that some of you seem to have the ability to get inside the minds of others and know the reasons why they voted the way they did.

I am bemused that those of you with mind reading abilities were surprised by the Hartlepool result. There was always the possibility of Tory win but I did not expect it to be so big.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:11 AM

"What's next? Asking the mods to stop me from posting? That is the usual tactic here isn't it?"

No it isn't. It happens rarely. I can think of two people in the sixteen or so years I've been here, and I'm not even sure that I asked the mods to stop them posting. Mists of time and all that. Dunno about anyone else here. By the way, those two were both far-right plants.

"I don't like the way some of you denigrate and insult those people who dare to vote for parties or ideas that you don't like."

We call it "democracy."

"I am bemused that those of you with mind reading abilities were surprised by the Hartlepool result."

"Those of us?" Pray tell, which one of us expressed the remotest bit of surprise at the result? Au contraire, I saw this coming weeks ago and you can bet your bottom dollar that so did the others posting to this thread. You make things up just to knock them down. Some call it straw man. Perhaps your favourite aunt is called Sally...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM

Why the personal attack, Rain Dog? If you believe your previous posts were not vexacious, that last one was nothing but until the last paragraph. A good way to get a thread closed and little else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM

So, RD, what you’re saying is that your opinion is that other people shouldn’t be allowed to express their opinion unless it’s an opinion you approve of?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:28 AM

”I am bemused that some of you seem to have the ability to get inside the minds of others and know the reasons why they voted the way they did.”

No, RD, we don’t do that. But we do see and hear the mind-control techniques and diversionary tactics of Brexiteers and the Tories, some overt, some subtle, but all aimed at persuading **a certain kind** of voter to vote against their own best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 01:15 PM

Btw, I fully acknowledge that I do not understand how people still stand behind this government but accept that is my problem, not theirs. I try to understand but to date no-one has explained how a lying, cheating philanderer like Boris can be so popular. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 21 - 03:58 PM

Dave:
He gets the job done. His sexual morality (or lack thereof) has no real effect on the job he is doing.
What the payment arrangements were for his flat, and I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, again do not prevent him doing his job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:12 PM

Rain Dog

I often heard Labour voters in the UK say that they were voting Labour in the same way as their parents always did but I never heard anyone say it out of “political ignorance” . Rather it was because their parents and grandparents had gone through the "hungry thirties" and passed on their bitter experiences .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:52 PM

i was a labour voter wheni lived in the uk, i have voted the same way as my parents did .my father did 30 days hard labour in prison for exercising his right to free speech criticising the royal family in the 1930s , there was no political ignorance in my family. ok rain canine

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 06:14 PM

Well my dad was a Labour councillor in Radcliffe in the sixties. My mum and dad worked for the Labour Party in elections, as indeed did I, in my case from the age of twelve, collecting numbers for Labour at our local polling station. My grandad was a lifelong Tory, who worked all his life in Salford docks. He was also a cradle Catholic, and the priests from the pulpits in Prestwich and Whitefield told him and his ilk to vote Tory. Tory, Queen, God and country. His son, my uncle, wore the bearskin at Buckingham Palace and changed the guards many times and all that. That's how it was. I've voted in every single election that I've been qualified to vote in, ever since I was eighteen. I'm very interested in politics, I come from a piss-poor working class background, and I know only too well how Tories, over many decades, have enabled the repression of the working classes whilst simultaneously enriching themselves. If we can't stand up to this (and just think how we got all those zero-hours contracts, shite pay, job insecurity, inhuman benefits system...) the working classes are doomed. But I have faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 12:18 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000vw3q/dateline-london-08052021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:40 AM

is anyone asking why did the liberals do so badly in hartlepool?349 votes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:21 AM

Adolph Hitler got they job done as well, Nigel. I'm not saying Boris is like him. Simply that getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:10 AM

The Lib Dems did really badly in Hartlepool. Likewise in my consituency they do really poorly now. This used to be, until less than a decade ago, a strong Lib Dem seat and had been since the early 1960s. The SNP took the Westminster seat from them and now it is Tory. They only got 6% of the vote in our constituency vote on Thursday's Scottish elections! They have managed so far to keep all their Scottish constituency seats from 2016 but I think it is mainly down to local loyalty. So very localised. They were though almost pipped to it by the SNP in Shetland which would have been unthinkable in times past.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:21 AM

getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.
Nor is focussing on his human failings a reason to vote for an opposition which does not appear to have clear policies, would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit, and is so divided that it is uncertain whether they would have been able to come to any decisions on how to deal with Covid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:29 AM

Whilst I think that he's bad enough to justify a vote for almost anyone else, you are right about Labour, Nigel. I tried to tell folks a year ago that this guy is a reactor, not a doer, and a charisma-free born loser. There's been no talk of dumping him, and I suppose we're going to have to get trashed in another election before we can ditch him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 06:13 AM

The problem is not so much Starmer, Steve, as Corbyn-Fanbois busting a gut to undermine him and inflame division in the party.

The one thing the Tories get right, perhaps the only thing IMO, is that they demonstrate unity in public, even when there are rifts in private. Pursuing an internal war in public in order to de-stabilise the democratically-elected leader is a sure way to guarantee electoral failure. And pursuing a war, in full public view, to push for the reinstatement to the leadership of someone whose ineptitude brought the party to its worst GE defeat in 85 years must qualify as the stupidest kind of stupid.

I’ve said before that I have no great regard for Starmer and I won’t shed any tears if he goes. Replace him if you must, but with the right person - any sensible suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 08 May 21 - 06:52 AM

A valid point from Nigel Parsons that Labour “would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit” . It makes the Labour Party seem more dishonest than the Tories - “Boris Johnson is an honest liar and at least you get a laugh out of him ”!
I detect the voice of Boris in some of the anti-EU propaganda recently archived by the EU
"The EU has archived all of the “Euromyths” printed in UK media – and it makes for some disturbing reading":
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading-108942/
(the blue clicky thing doesn't seem to work)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:23 AM

Yes, MM, Nigel is spot-on about the divisions in the Labour Party wrecking its election-potential, something I’ve been trying to tell the Corbynista-Fanbois for a long time, and for which I’ve been harangued mercilessly, both here and elsewhere. It’s high time they stopped fighting each other, and united to do what the Labour Party exists for - to fight the worst Tory government in living memory.

None are so blind as they who think they’re so clever they have nothing to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 May 21 - 08:07 AM

BWM - i don't know about the tories demonstrating unity in public. when johnson got the job the more sensible of the party's MPs were ruthlessly purged. almost at a stroke the tories became an english nationalist, brexit, johnson personality cult. and what happened to those principled voices like rory stewart, ken clarke, dominic grieve et al? theresa may? all the tory party members with a conscience (of sorts) who mistrust and dislike johnson and don't favour brexit? all these people seem to have disappeared - probably to their boardroom jobs or writing unreadable memoirs. my suspicion is that tories aren't really interested in politics per se - it's just a game that results in preserving their gains and protecting their perceived social status. on the left we are cursed with giving a shit about stuff and will fight about matters of principle- particularly about what is fair and humane. now , socialists are out of favour in the labour party and are being told to shut up and get in line by the very people who did no shutting up or getting in line - in fact doing all they could to do undermine idealistic progress in the party (see 2017 manifesto) i don't have any answers to this - i've left the party and while i always vote anti-tory it is very sad to see what labour has become - splitters! doomed to give a shit.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 21 - 08:39 AM

In an Independant article today, John Rntoul write:

But overall, Labour has moved forwards and upwards from the pit of its worst postwar election result. Professor Sir John Curtice, the one-person national institution, has calculated that the English local elections would have translated into a Conservative lead in a vote across Great Britain of 6 to 7 percentage points. In other words, closing the 12-point lead at the general election by about half.

When the BBC put these numbers into its House of Commons model, it suggested that Johnson’s 80-seat majority would be all but wiped out. These figures are for illustrative purposes only, as they say on those pension-fund statements, and the new boundaries that will take effect in June 2023 will make the next election even harder for Labour to win, but it is not an impossible goal.


Rentoul was never a Corbyn supporter, and has generally backed Starmer, so I accept this is not an unbiased couple of sentences. But if John Curtice has been correctly quoted, progress in terms of electability has been made. Whether that has been at the cost of becoming Tory-lite is a matter of personal judgement.
   

Labour should in normal circumstances be doing much better, and to succeed in future it will have to do so. It will have to win in England, which it rarely does. So I would say that there is still a mountain to climb after the 2019 results. But Labour has made a little progress despite Hartlepool.

I think Kipling has it right about meeting "with Triumph and Disaster/And treating both imposters just the same."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 09:04 AM

So labour is doomed to fulfilling the role of a barely effective opposition party;
going through the motions of holding the government to account..

A function some Britons still regard
as an essential component of British government..

But which corrupt Machiavellian goodtime geezer Boris haughtily dismisses as "playing politics"..

It's blatantly obvious his majority seat government has complete contempt for the existence of a properly functioning opposition party,

Perhaps, the concept of opposition is eventually becoming so marginalized and eroded, considered no more than a trifling petty irritant by the dominating tories,
that it will eventually be abolished altogether.

And if that did happen, probably most of the British public would not give a monkey's...

Perhaps old etonian toff history swots might consider some semblance of opposition worth preserving
as an institutional relic.
Part of the rich fabric of political museum traditions...???

How easy is it to slip into a one party state without the population caring...?????

.. and with too many of them probably even thinking it's a great idea...

Hail Boris..

.. until he is stabbed in the back and usurped by the next, perhaps much worse,
dastardly villainous tory leadership challenger.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 09:44 AM

You memory seems to be letting you down, John. Ever since Corbyn was elected leader, the senior right-wing members of the party - let's call them the Yvette Cooper faction - not only refused to work with him, turning down shadow cabinet posts, etc., but routinely briefed against him. A number of them gleefully jumped on the utterly bogus "Corbyn is antisemitic" bandwagon. They didn't give a sod about the fact that they were helping to wreck future election prospects. They were ideologues with one-track minds, with the aim of purging the party of lefties. Jeremy did much better than expected in 2017, lest you forget. But those right-wingers fought the war of attrition for the next two years, supported by the right-wing press, leading to the disaster of 2019. That is exactly what they wanted. So who really were the splitters? They did all that while half a million people, nearly all lefties, had joined the party. Wow. And in the first few weeks of leading the party, Starmer "purged" the party of Corbyn on spurious grounds and he sacked Becky Long-Bailey, ten times the person he is, also on spurious grounds. Two inconvenient lefties out of the way...

I've been a trade unionist for fifty years. Going right back to the early seventies, my union, The NUT, was riven by two factions, what you might now call the centre left and the hard left. The constant wail of the former was that the union "needed unity," which, to them, meant purging the party of lefties (I received two warning letters from the General Secretary, Fred Jarvis, myself). Those who regard themselves as mainstream in the party who "call for unity" always have that agenda. We're right, the lefties are wrong, let's fight the lefties whatever it takes. Tar and feather them, demonise them, undermine them at every turn, get the Mail on your side. I've seen it time and time again. 'Twas ever thus, and I hear an echo of that in your post.

One of the hardest of the hard lefties in east London was my friend Blair Peach. He was murdered by a policeman in 1979. He also was warned by the union establishment, many times. These days, the union gives an annual Blair Peach award to the teacher who has done the most to promote racial harmony. Funny, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:20 AM

Since you clearly don’t grasp a simple, but utterly undeniable fact, Steve, I’ll repeat it and keep repeating it until the stubborn, “I’m a teacher, nobody can tell me anything” part of you finally gets it - Party Members don’t elect governments, voters elect governments.

The voters rejected Corbyn’s version of Labour (for whatever reasons, and I believe there are many, including the public splits in the party), and they are currently rejecting, and will continue to reject for as long as the party displays the current level of disunity and disloyalty, Starmer’s version. And there isn’t a cat-in-hell’s chance that voters will elect a Labour government - the very thing the people of the U.K. desperately need to right the shameful wrongs of this past eleven years - unless Labour MPs, party workers, and party members stop publicly pissing, moaning, and working against their own party.

Members don’t ‘own’ the party, nor do party workers, ‘activists’, or even MPs. The party is owned by everyone who gives it their trust and votes Labour. And those who undermine the party because it’s not their personal ‘flavour’, or the ‘right kind’ of Labour, do it a grave disservice. More importantly, they do a grave disservice to those who need a Labour government the most.

So carry on, be my guest, but be prepared for Tory rule for a very long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:31 AM

sorry back woodsman , but i think the voters are rejecting keir starmer he lacks charisma and has not been effective as a leader of opposition. johnson appears to have something that appeals to voters,that is not corbyns fault, but when cummings leaks do not bring johnson down, then starmer certainly will not, corbyn did bring in younger members, starmers move to the middle ground has not worked, because people are voting not on policy but on charisma. johnson does nothing for me but he clearly turns some voters on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 21 - 12:32 PM

On the charisma front, I thought Andy Burnham's comments interesting. As he makes clear, this would be a long way off yet, but I suspect he could do it.


He was asked if he would still like to lead the party one day, and he said that he was not even an MP, and that his focus was on Greater Manchester. That is the standard response for someone in Burnham’s position to a question like this.

But then he went on:

In the distant future, if the party were ever to feel that it needed here, I’m here and they should get in touch.

When it was put to Burnham that that sounded as if he were still open to the idea of being Labour leader, he replied:

I have tried twice to be the leader and it’s never worked so I’m not under any illusions, if you like. It’s never worked for me in the past. I feel I’m in the best job in the world.

But I’m here to help the Labour party, if they need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 01:21 PM

(Ignoring the unnecessary nonsense in your first paragraph...)

600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader. There is very little doubt that the overwhelming majority of those people were left-wing in sentiment. That should have at least given the party seniors the message that a change of direction was sorely needed. That a new enthusiasm was in the air. To them (including me), the old ways since the demise of Blair's New Labour were a failure. Corbyn represented something radically new. That message did not get across. Instead, and in spite of the hope provided by the 2017 result, the party bigwigs turned on him and killed off that message, a gift to the Tories and right-wing press. I'm sorry you can't see this. You appear to be saying that all principle should be ditched in order to ditch the Tories. We were saying that it was time for principle to regain its place. Maybe you've forgotten how principle, in tbe face of constant personal and sordid attackes, almost but not quite turned things round in 2017 in a very surprising way. Another message that didn't get across to the Yvette cabal. My view is that Jeremy, ultimately, might not have been the right person. But begod we've gone right back to New Labour-lite. And the long knives are still out for lefties in the party. And as you seem to be saying, there is no clear way out of this. It's a shambles, and the people in charge are people with the same sentiment as yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:13 PM

I have thought long and hard about this. I am sure it is the centrist/right of the Labour party (aka Tory light) that have caused this rift. The realisation made me resign my membership and I shall not rejoin until the party gets back to its grass roots. I can see your point about stopping the rifts, John, but what are left of centre people like me and Steve supposed to do? Give up and roll over, leaving us with 2 Tory parties, or fight for what believe are the true Labour party values? Starmer was shipped in by the right, assured a safe seat and will continue to be ineffective for as long as he is supported. I will continue to vote for Labour and against this awful regime but I cannot condone capitulation to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:24 PM

I forgot to say and should let you know that you are correct, Nigel. Credit where credit is due. If you hadn't gathered, yes, I agree with your analysis. Any other version of the Labour party could have wiped the floor with Bozzer. We need a major overhaul.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:41 PM

While I was posting the news that Starmer has sacked Angela Rayner landed in my in box. Next Labour party chair and deputy leader? My money is on Theresa May...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:55 PM

Theresa May?
You're welcome to her ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 03:22 PM

We will have to agree to continue disagreeing, Steve and Dave. It makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends or sleep over things completely out of my control.

G’night y’all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 03:49 PM

We are not fighting the wrong battles, John. We are fighting with the wrong weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:09 PM

You can barely even call it fighting..

But mostly just sat up strait-laced on a high horse,
sanctimoniously tut tutting at the unmanageable mass of unenlightened plebs..

That is one thing guaranteed to piss off the working class

In too many ways, Labour have become this generations equivalent of the Mary Whitehouse brigade...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:12 PM

Sorry Dave, you’re fighting the wrong people. Your enemies, and the enemies of poor, disadvantaged, disenfranchised people, are the Conservative & Unionist Party and its (mostly non-dom) billionaire donors/controllers. Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE.

But, as I said earlier, I’m done - it’s Saturday evening and there’s a good drama series we’re watching on Sky Atlantic. ;-).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:49 PM

"Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE."

So what do you think has been demonstrated this week? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:57 AM

I think the voters of hartlepool voted more on personality than policy, but a bit more complicated than that because they also voted on their own slef interest rather than their perceived national interst.
one voter said well if he does good things for hartlepool that will do me[ so never mind the rest of the uk,+
it is interesting. so despite boris is a proven liar they believe him and do not trust starmer, this is personality politics. i do not like starmer but i believe he is honest yet he looks shifty. johnson is imo untrustworthy yet voters like him, plus they think borishas done a good jobwith covid . its like the mad hatters tea party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 21 - 05:22 AM

I repeat, for the benefit of those who didn’t get it the first time around...

”We will have to agree to continue disagreeing,...it makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends...over things completely out of my control.”

And...

”But as I said earlier, I’m done.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 05:30 AM

thursday's elections had some hopeful signs. winners like andy burnham, nicola sturgeon, sadiq khan, welsh labour, 'radical' preston, and the good performance by the greens (including my county councillor) none of these bodies could be considered dangerously left-wing and policies they support like green new deal, better deals with europe, protected human rights, no trident, good green jobs, PR, increased union participation, free elderly care, free student fees etc etc are all policies that should fit easily into a progressive labour manifesto without scaring either of the 2 groups in the party. given that starmer was elected as a competent manager to unite the party it's about time he got serious with the job. or leave it to someone who can.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:06 AM

And, for John's delectation, Sir Keir Unity has harmonised the party by sacking Angela Rayner from a post she was frozen out of by Sir Unity's office during the election campaign. An inexplicable and divisive decision if ever there was one. The bungled campaign which failed to recognise and challenge the changed Tory party was entirely his fault, and now he sacks a popular and competent working-class woman. Let's hope that in the reshuffle he can (a) find her a top job, (b) he'll hope that she will accept gracefully. You couldn't make this up. I ask you again: who really are the splitters in the party? What a bloody cock-up...

You ask who else? Well let's look at a couple of those election-winning mayoral candidates for starters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:27 AM

That's a good post, pete. We've got to be optimistic. Sturgeon is beginning to worry me though. If I lived in Scotland I'd vote for independence in any referendum. But though she can muster a majority in Parliament with the greens, because of bias in the electoral system in Scotland which favours the SNP she might just have slightly the wrong idea about her backing in the country for a referendum, let alone her prospects of winning it. Sir John Curtice calculated that independence-minded voters may represent just a smidgeon over 50% of the electorate. She might be better off letting Boris ban her attempts to get a referendum and moaning vigorously in a state of victimhood than ploughing on and losing the vote. There's no way that she could claim that a vote with a tiny majority, taking into account that there would be a lot of stay-at-homes, would represent "the will of the people." We've been here before, haven't we? I'm not sure that she's quite the canny operator I used to take her for...

On another tack, a nice bit of royal corruption is now rearing its head..."Haven't met Putin since 2003" my arse. Does he think we don't know all about the bush telegraph?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:47 AM

cheers steve, the system for holyrood elections is specifically designed to prevent one party having an overall majority, yet the snp have been good at winning to ensure a seemingly permanent dominance. however, as you say they do seem to be 'stuck' at around 50% for any independence vote- not good enough to be confident of a harmonious future no matter their strengths and the obvious nonsense of continuous tory misrule. labour scotland have done themselves no favours by getting into bed with scottish tories and reducing themselves to carping at anything the snp try to achieve. popular snp policies should be aspirations for the labour party - no trident, free this and that etc, a more nationalist outlook and an atmosphere of caring, engaged competence. there are many things that they (and the greens) should agree on - it should be a priority to make some alliance with scotland...to have a refendum with the promise of as much co-operation, friendship and mutual respect as is possible should scots make the choice to leave the uk. labour do often talk about federalism without really making it clear what this means - maybe nicola sturgeon and andy burnham could get together and work something out

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 21 - 07:42 AM

I can fully understand anyone in Scotland wanting Independence.

However I am also aware that Scottish Independence will mean the removal of 59 MP's who historically have numbered few Conservatives which would also mean that we are unlikely to ever have a Labour Government in England and Wales again .............. and if Wales go for independence ....?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 08:53 AM

Let's not forget it was Scotland that already severely f@cked up Labour's chances of ever again winning government,
when the SNP mopped up at a previous election..

Every Corbyn/Starmer failure since is just another nail in Labour's coffin..

I'm 62, it would be nice to see the tories kicked out before I'm 70..

But that is a futile dream unless some form of progressive party
get's it's act together and starts thrashing tories at elections...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:09 AM

Backstabbing treachorous liberals conning us that a tactical vote for them
would keep the tories out..

.. and Scots Nationalists..

Those are the main dire factors I blame for fatally wounding Labour,
even before Corbyn became the fall guy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V0sZ6RkS3g&ab_channel=OwenJones

guest interview - John McDonnell

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:26 PM

i thought this was an interesting programme and made me feel much more positive about left of centre politics. it's a shame that too many good labour people - like john mcdonell and many others are being sidelined.
by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party. they have always attacked the tories and got them securely under control up there. if labour offered more positive choices and if we weren't so much more susceptible to tory and the media nonsense labour could do much better south of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:59 PM

by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't blame the scots for voting as they think fit. That it makes things more difficult for Labour is an unfortunate, unavoidable side effect, but that is Labour-in-England's problem to address. They have, somehow, to become more appealing. Whether you are pro or anti Corbyn, the 2016 certainly showed an appetite for change. The vaccine story has undoubtedly made people more cautious and reluctant for change, but that will not last forever. It is a matter of finding the changes that people want.

It is worth noting that while the name 'Conservative' has not changed, the party has re-invented itself quite a few times. I find it a stretch to imagine Thatcher agreeing to the furlough, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 21 - 02:59 PM

The UK normally gets the gvt England votes for. Blair's gvts had majorities without the Scottish members. You can't blame the Scots because the English aren't returning the gvts you want. Besides as per the Milliband election the SNP would likely offer to work with Labour on an issue by issue basis. Milli band's reaction was lukewarm at best at the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 03:35 PM

Kinda getting used to stubborn nationalists,
hell-bent on getting their own way at any cost,
saying "don't blame us for your problems"..

.. funny that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 21 - 04:36 PM

It is true though PFR. Scotland returns very few Tory MPs and the vast bulk of Scottish members are pretty anti Tory so the idea that it is Scotland's fault that Labour can't seem to beat Tories doesn't make much sense. In the Scottish Parliament the parties are used to working with other parties on issues. Two of the SNP terms were minority administrations where they worked with other parties on a non formal basis. Labour don't need 50 Scottish Labour MPs to outvote the Tories they just need to learn to work with other like minded parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:57 AM

Allen, it sound like you are saying that it is my fault that I have to suffer a tory government because I voted for and got a Labour MP. SNP represents 44 constituencies and Labour 202. So surely the Labour constituencies are five times more entitled to independence from the tory government than the SNP ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:58 AM

Can I make it quite clear I am not blaming the Scottish people for Consevative Governments I am merely stating that the 59 seats they return to Westminster are rarely conservative and have historically aided the formation of Labour Governments.

If those 59 are removed the balance of power in Westminster will be skewed towards the conservatives if and when Scotland leave the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 05:14 AM

But if the Scots don't leave us and the 59 seats remain in the mix, Scotland will be governed by Westminster Tories for the foreseeable future. They may have a devolved government but they still had brexit inflicted on them against "the will of the Scottish people" and Scotland is not fundamentally a Tory country. Being nice to the left of centre in England is no reason at all to stay in the union.

However, I'd worry if a referendum threw up a tiny majority to leave, in the same way that it was an outrage that a tiny majority (of those who voted, not of the electorate) dragged us so damagingly out of Europe. The Tories could nobble Nicola by allowing a referendum but insisting on a super-majority. That would never be achieved so it would be game over. But, of course, she wouldn't accept that, and as the Tories didn't do it for brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:46 AM

I am not saying it is anyone's fault. Exactly the opposite in fact. What I said it was not Scotland's fault that a Tory gvt is returned. The exact quote was

"Let's not forget it was Scotland that already severely f@cked up Labour's chances of ever again winning government,
when the SNP mopped up at a previous election.."

That is simply not the case. Labour lost virtually all its seats in Scotland yes - but they for the most part went to the SNP, who would be pretty certain to vote with a Labour gvt against the Tories on most things. The idea that the SNP would not support the formation of a Labour UK gvt is fantasy. They would be unlikely to want to go into any formal coalition - and would probably not be offered one anyway - but their views pretty much align on most things and it would be workable. 48 SNP members plus 1 Labour member against 6 Tories from Scotland adds considerably to the anti-Tory block in Westminster. In short it would be political suicide for an SNP block in Westminster to align with the Tories over Labour in say a vote of confidence. Just wouldn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:51 AM

Re the super-majority Steve. That is a non-starter. That is what happened in the first devolution referendum. Those supporting a devolved parliament won but not by a big enough margin as laid down by the UK gvt. That caused a boil to fester which very soon led to a second campaign for devolution to start up. There was deep resentment that a referendum vote had been won but in essence those who didn't vote or were even dead but still on the register were counted as voting against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:00 AM

Raggytrash you are absolutely right in that Scottish votes perviously aided getting Labour gvts - and that not having a huge Labour block of Scottih MPs makes it more difficult to get a 'majority' Labour gvt.

But again it does not actually make it more difficult to outvote the Tories as the bulk of the Scottish members would vote with Labour.

Plus yes they have historically aided Labour victories but they have not on the whole been necessary for Labour victories. That has happened on the odd occasion when there has been a very tight result but in most cases Labour has had a majority without taking the Scottish members into account.

In truth the thing that is maybe keeping the Tories seem unassailable in England at the moment is for the most part the first past the post voting system which Labour has never been that keen to change either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:11 AM

I'm certain that that first word was a typo, Allan!

I wasn't suggesting a super-majority setup. That's one thing Johnson definitely wouldn't get away with, after such a thing was not permitted for the brexit vote, despite protests. I was speaking hypothetically.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:39 AM

Re the figures from the Blair/Brown years.

In 1997 Labour won 418 seats against 241 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 177. Scotland sent 56 Labour seats to Westminster against 16 from other parties. So there was a big majority without the Scottish members.

In 2001 Labour won 412 seats against 247 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 165. Scotland again sent 56 Labour seats to Westminster against 16 from other parties. So there was a big majority without the Scottish members.

In 2005 Labour won 355 seats against 291 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 64. Scotland again sent 41 Labour seats to Westminster against 18 from other parties. So there was again a safe enough majority without the Scottish members.

Just showing that historically it was not true that Scottish Labour MPS are required for returning a Labour gvt.

Plus the idea that the huge Labour contingents used to reflect Scottish opinion doesn't stand either. In 1997 the 78% of the Scottish seats were gained by only 45% of the actual vote.

The SNP currently gets this advantage of sending a representation to Westminster which is away above their % share of the vote. Though even though it benefits them they support the ending of first past the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:53 AM

Though even though it benefits them they support the ending of first past the post.

I heard a lecture by John Curtice weeks ago where he suggested the only real route to power for Labour was to form an alliance with parties looking for electoral reform. When that happens the two wings of Labour could separate and not ultimately split the left vote. The experience with the SDP and Change UK and others shows such splits without electoral reform do not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:45 PM

Yeah the split thing was a possibility with the SNP and Salmond's Alba party. Despite the media hype didn't amount to anything. Salmond being even less popular than Boris is within Scotland now didn't help their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 21 - 03:21 PM

But surely a strong confident labour majority govt,
or even Labour in opposition, still holding those nearly 60 lost Scottish seats,
would be a far more effective convincing intimidating foe for the tories..

A counter argument is that smaller left of centre parties,
would be of more use in fighting tory perpetual domination,
if they swallow their egos, pride, and separatist policy obsessions,
by joining as members of the allegedly broad church Labour party...???

Strength in numbers, and all that...

Otherwise, tories will always win when they can divide and rule...

Pragmatically, a two party system is better than the one party system which we will end up with after a few more years under the tories;
laughing their bollocks off at the left fragmenting into piddling little factions and single issue parties...

Right then, give it a few more years see what happens up north of the border,
then have another think about the Wessex and Cornish separatist movements..

OK.. yes, they'd still end up just as dominated by ruling class west country tories..

Nothing ever changes for the better around here in Scrumpyshire...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 21 - 03:47 PM

I'll just add that some folks hold the opinion that Nicola Sturgeon
might have been a formidable leader of the Labour party.

Who knows what positive benefits she could have achieved for all of Britain if she wasn't so parochially obsessed...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:17 PM

Steve: 600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader.
Is there any evidence of that claim?
Nowhere that I can find ever shows the recent total membership in that range, let alone a sudden surge of that amount.
According to The House of Commons As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members,

I can see a prediction of total membership of that value in The New Statesman : Labour membership is on course to hit 600,000, a half-century peak, after a second successive day in which more than 100,000 people have applied to become party members. That does seem to imply that 600,000 may have been the membership 50 years ago though.

And according to The Guardian The membership level had fallen in 2019 from 518,659 at end of 2018 to a figure which remained above 500,000 as at August 2019

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:39 PM

You didn't look very hard, Nigel.

Labour leadership: Huge increase in party's electorate

From the BBC article - Labour received more than 160,000 applications to vote in its leadership contest in the final 24 hours of registrations, the party has said.

The number of applications via trade unions more than doubled and the number of party members and £3 registered supporters also rose.

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.

Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.

I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members. There was a massive surge and the membership has now declined under Starmer.

As ever, if all you can do is nit pick at flawed wording, your argument is lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:44 PM

...and before you start rabbiting on about the importance of accuracy you need to bear in mind that Steve probably made a mistake on an insignificant internet forum that makes no difference whatsoever to peoples livelihoods. Compare that to the record of your hero.

The lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations of Boris Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:03 PM

Yes, it was careless of me to say "joined the party." A quick shufty around found this (Rowena Mason in 2019 in the Guardian):

"Figures from the party’s latest accounts show it had 518,659 members in December 2018, down from a peak of 564,443 the previous year."

I heard 600,000 somewhere but I can't find it, and I'm not inclined to spend more time on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:35 PM

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.
Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.
I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members.

It doesn't even make a claim for 600,000+ members (rather than the claim of 600,000 new members) as it goes on to say (about the figure of 610,753) that: Labour says checks are still taking place on all new members to weed out non-party supporters. That is presumably why they quote the figure as 'potential'.

As to it being pointless correcting Steve. If the original statement is allowed to stand then others can claim that they read it somewhere, and claim it as fact. Which is what Steve also appears to have been doing (mistakenly).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:47 PM

I didn't ever believe that all those people suddenly joined, Nigel. I should have said that the numbers rose to... And whether I was a bit optimistic or not kind of depends how, who and when you count. I was in the ballpark and I can be no further arsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 02:53 AM

Steve, the electorate in the leadership contest reached over 600000 as per the BBC article I linked. That is probably what you saw. As I said to Nigel, mistakes such as that matter little compared to deliberately misleading the country for your own benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:23 AM

To paraphrase a business-slogan I learned many years ago...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Party unity is King!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:32 AM

Second thoughts...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Government is King!

Not much chance of the third element while the first seems to be more important to some people than the second.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:48 AM

As expected, it seems like Johnson will be bringing ending the Fixed Parliament Act into the Queens speech. Doing so was a manifesto commitment, so he is perfectly entitled to do that. Like many commentators I think he will call the election in 2023, though the back end of 2022 does not seem impossible. That gives Labour very little time to sort itself out, and a year of squabbles will play into Johnson's hands very nicely.

I go along with John Curtice. The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP. All stand in the next election under one banner of, let's say, "True Democracy". There would be only one candidate from TD in each constituency and there would be one item in their manifesto, namely introducing proportional representation then calling another election once that had been voted for. Thereafter, each revert to their normal parties or reorganise themselves as they see fit. I have ideas how to decide who stands for TD in each ward, and how Parliamentary jobs are allocated, but that is fine detail: it is the broad brush that matters.


I can't see it happening, myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:50 AM

yes good idea dmcg i look at the country i was born in and i thank god i escaped but i still feel so sad

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:13 AM

Sorry John but following your logic, as Bozzer got more crosses than anyone else, we all need to unite behind him. What you are saying is that the lesser of two evils, ie Tory light as opposed to Tory right, is good. Fair enough, that is your opinion and I can see the logic in it. I would prefer to see the right wing politics currently prevalent across both major parties opposed and I think that can still be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:16 AM

Besides, your comments seem to be echoing a certain mantra that some have used before. We got more votes and you lost. Get over it. Surely not? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:03 AM

No Dave, I’m talking about the LP, not Johnson. I’m not taking one side, I’m not pitting R v. L, no matter how others try to spin what I say. I’m saying that everyone, no matter their ‘leaning’, needs to get together to unite the Labour Party and make it electable, so that it can rid the country of this foul scourge of Conservative government. Sadly, there seems to be more interest here in student-ideology and an obsession with membership numbers. I’ll say it again and again until certain people get it...

1) Members don’t elect governments, the voting public elect governments. So boasting about membership numbers is nothing more than vanity.

2) The unseemly spectacle of two opposing elements within the party ripping each others’ faces off is unlikely to attract voters to vote Labour, rather the opposite.

3) Unless and until the LP attracts sufficient votes to form a government, it is failing the very people it exists to represent - the poor, the disadvantaged, the disenfranchised. And it is failing those of us who trusted it with our votes.

4) People are putting personalities, together with their rather naive ideology and dogma, before Party, and before the needs of the country. There’s a need for some grown-up old-fashioned pragmatism, the lack of which is risking the Labour Party becoming completely irrelevant.

The Party is bigger than any one member or group of members, and it must be ‘Party before Personality’. Every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:21 AM

Agreed, John. The Labour party needs to become electable. You seem to be saying that is by getting behind Starmer. I disagree and, by the performance last Thursday, it seems that the electorate prefer Johnson to Starmer. How will getting behind the current leader halp that situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:59 AM

But if starmer was best choice from a mediocre bunch;

who is there to oust him and inspire the whole nation...?????

.. ie, not just middle class elite student union politics 'socialists'...


Is there a ready and waiting down to earth charismatic potential leader,
who can win sufficient 'working class' votes back from the populist right ...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:09 AM

Becky would have fitted the bill but we missed that bus :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:14 AM

Thing is, John, you've laid your cards on the table time and time again to tell us what a disaster you think Corbyn and his ilk have been. So what you're really saying is, come on, lefties, ditch your principles and throw your lot in with the (establishment Tory-lite) centre of the party. Be seen to be evaporating. Ain't happening. This party grew from working-class trade union roots and it's the Blairs/Browns/Milibands/Starmers who are wanting to usurp the party name and ditch that history, as if it's some kind of embarrassment. I joined this party when Jeremy Corbyn became leader because I thought I could see a resurgence of what Labour should really be about, a left-wing party of principle (I'm still clinging on in hope...). If you want an anodyne centre party, join the LibDems. Oh, and let's not forget what happened to them when they went for "unity" with the Tories. Or the SDP when they went for "unity" with the Liberals...

And I'm still waiting to have it explained to me how suspending Jeremy Corbyn on spurious grounds, sacking Becky Long-Bailey on spurious grounds and scapegoating Angie Rayner are going to advance the cause of party unity. I ask for the third time: who really ARE the splitters in the party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:25 AM

"The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP."

That would condemn me to voting for the LibDems round here. I did that six times in general elections to try to keep out the Tory. Last time I did it, in 2010, the LibDem candidate's repeated (ad nauseam) mantra was "Don't let the Tories in here." Well whaddya know. He got elected, and they ditched their principles and went into an unholy and opportunistic alliance with the Tories, which he supported. Progressive party my arse. It's a cliche, but the LibDems showed themselves to be a bunch of naive Tory-lites, and the one delicious thing about the 2015 election was that they got their just deserts. I don't wish to be disenfranchised via the unholy alliance you're suggesting, thanks. In fact, the first thing I'd do is tear up my membership card.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:52 AM

That's fair enough, Steve, and I don't guarantee it would work of course. But the alliance I suggested is very short term - maybe as short as a month. It has one purpose only: to change from FTP to a proportional system. Thereafter, as I said, there would be another election and in that you could vote for whoever you wished. You would not be tied to LibDem for four or five years.

We all recognise, I think, that without the Labour party reunifying somehow, the Tories will stay in power long term under FPTP. Some want the Labour party to unify to the left, some to the centre. So it does not unify at all while that argument goes on. What way out of the impasse do you suggest that recognises not everyone will agree with one preferred idea of what Labour should be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:35 AM

OK no one blames the Scots and a loss of seats would imblance the rest of England but people over here ask, "Will there be a new border?"
There hasn't been one since Hadrian's wall.
I suppose since its not a done deal its too soon to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:40 AM

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the wee fuckin’ donkey!

No, for fuck’s sake, I’m not talking about ‘backing Starmer’ - that’s the spin you keep putting on it. Please stop the spinning. I’m saying that the Party and the needs of those it exists to serve are far more important than Personalities. When Corbyn was the leader, despite my own personal view that he was just about the worst possible man for the job - weak, ineffectual, a lousy public speaker, made mincemeat of by May and Johnson at PMQs Wednesday after Wednesday, incapable of putting the smears and slurs against him to bed - I spoke up for him and, when he was under attack from within the Party I said exactly the same things that I’m saying now, that the in-fighting should stop and the Party should pull together to defeat the Tories. And if that means supporting a leader who’s not my particular preference, so be it - I did it for Corbyn, and I’ll do it no matter who the leader is. Party before Personality.

The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior, they couldn’t care less about ‘Becky’ and ‘Angie’ (come off it with the faux-familiarity Steve, don’t be a pillock - you don’t know them, never even met them, and in public it’s Rebecca and Angela). What they care about is the difference a Labour government would make to their miserable lives - any Labour government is better than the Tories unless you’re made of money.

So please stop the bullshit, stop the spinning of my words, and think about the people for whom - unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda - having a Labour government instead of the permanent Tory rule that Labour Party civil-war will subject them to could be a dream come true.

But I guess you’ll only hear what you want to hear, see what you want to see - leopards don’t change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 09:25 AM

Who were the people in the party who, for years, got the bit between their teeth over the completely false allegations of Corbyn's antisemitism? Who ditched Ken Livingstone? Do you think they were honest brokers? What about the ones who kept silent and let it rumble? Don't you think they knew what damage they were doing? Anything to unseat Corbyn, even a disastrous election defeat was worth it? Allowing the Mail open season on Corbyn and not standing up to it? These are the very people who now blame the left for divisions and bleat about unity at any price. Well let me tell you, it'll be a while, and at least some of us want to see principle re-established in the party and a leadership that is not constantly behind the curve and which only seems to know how to behave expediently and divisively. That's where most of the effort to unify the party needs to come from, and by effort I don't mean sacking lefties. If Labour can't be a left-wing party, and I don't mean hard left, then it may as well not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 09:31 AM

By the way, in the party they are Angie and Becky. My daughter is called Rebecca. The only person who ever calls her that is her mother, and even then only when she's angry. They would have made a dream team, instead of which we've got stodge on toast. Two northern working-class women at the top of a socialist-leaning party. What a shot in the arm for our politics that would have been. Boris would have been pooping his pantaloons every bloody week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 11:24 AM

Yes, John. We do need to pull together. In which direction are you suggesting we pull? Right or left? If something is being pulled in opposite directions, then at least 2 people are doing it. Which is right and which is wrong?

BTW, I have met Becky on a number of occasions and she wouldn't mind the familiarity at all. She is a lot closer to those working class grass roots that you hold so dear than Sir Keir. And it is quite noticeable where the bad feeling in this thread seems to be emanating from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 11:28 AM

Second BTW. What happened to being done with this and not losing any friends?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 21 - 01:55 PM

Donuel what do you mean by there hasn't been a border since Hadrian's Wall. The Scottish/English border ceased officially being an international border in 1707.!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:04 PM

So Mandelson has suggested to Starmer that he severs links with trade unions and left-wing factions. You see? That's the right of the party's idea of "unity..."

Sounds like Angela Rayner (scared to call her Angie...Sorry, Angie...) was hopping mad with Keir at the weekend. She certainly got the better of him. Her team (though not her) have even suggested that she could challenge him for the leadership. Now how great would that be!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:31 PM

"The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior..."

"...unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda..."

For the first ten years of my life I lived in a slum infested with beetles, with no hot water tap and an outside toilet that froze up every winter. Latchkey kid. There was a flooded mine shaft five yards from my front door in which a four-year-old boy drowned while I lived there. My last primary school class had 48 kids in it. We were bloody hard up, and so what if I've done well to get myself out of that. My head has never been in the clouds about the rampant inequalities in our society and I've stood on picket lines in the freezing cold at six in the morning to support school cleaners, hospital workers and firemen. I have never not been a trade unionist. You call for party unity. That happened under Blair for a time. During that time the chasm between the rich and poor got ever wider. Go figure, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:41 PM

Woof, I have been like little lord Fauntelroy in comparison and have had a easy ride and childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 12:27 AM

For some time I've been one of the folks consistently criticising the Labour party
for becoming over-run by santimonious academic ideologues,
and smarmy affluent middle class professional political & business suit 'n' tie clones..

So it's their party now...!!!???

A Labour party disdainful of, and preaching scornfully down at the rough, un-PC, working class


No real surprise then, original traditional Labour voters
have become so alienated by this unwelcome invasion of snooty elitist 'superiors and betters',
that they've became easy exploited target mass converts for the oportunist populist far right...

Now as despicable as they are, our enemy, far right organisers and influencers
have proven time again they have far more political awareness and intelligence
than the out of touch Labour party upper hierarchy,
who the working class can no longer identify with...

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians..

One of 'us'.. council estate born and raised..
celebrating our rebellious unpretensious working class culture, and vulgar disrespectful sense of humour...

Genuinely authentic down to earth politicians who can appeal to and inspire
the generation of former Labour voters who are now sick of the Labour party,
and flocking to good time geezer boris - and his 'couldn't give a shit about petty rules and laws' personality...

Like it or not, that's the role model so many lost labour voters now aspire to..

boris and the far right understand this, goody two shoes moralistic Labour don't..

I'd suggest the likes of Starmer, would probably be better practical use as Deputy Labour leaders...???
Using their upper echelon establishment professional finesse and contacts network,
to support, protect, and guide, a real working class Labour leader
through the nest of vipers that is parliament and british media...

.. But... oh well.. back to depressing reality.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 03:44 AM

PFR - Why should us working class folk accept "left wing Tommy Robinsons"? Extremism in any form is a anathema. I was brought up on council estates in Salford and like Steve spent my early years in a 2 up 2 down street entranced terrace with no bathroom. My Dad, a Polish painter and decorator, spent his life here as a union activist and Labour supporter while hating fascists and communists with equal venom. I worked in the building trade from doing holiday jobs labouring to being a site inspector for Manchester council until I discovered I was better at IT. Yet I would never dream of supporting an extremist of any ilk. Your depiction of the working class being drudges who live in the gutter, piss their money up the wall and are easily swayed by populism is as out of touch as the very politicians you are railing against. What I and many like me want is a government that looks after everyone's interests equally. Not populist trickery from any side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:05 AM

The only difference with low-income and wealthy people 'pissing money against the wall' is that the wealthy waste a lot more and still have more money left over than they know what to do with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:10 AM

You could almost be describing Rayner as leader and Starmer as deputy, pfr...but a cautiinary note here...when we had a leftie leader (Corbyn) and a right-wing deputy (Watson) it didn't go well, did it? Whilst Corbyn tried to maintain his dignity, Watson made it abundantly clear to the world that he didn't want to be associated with him. I ask again - who really ARE the splitters in the party?

I must say, I wasn't too comfy with your lefty Tommy Robinson either. Not quite sure what you had in mind there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:27 AM

DtG - working classier than thou

Never mind the kneejerks...

At what point in my post, or any time in my life,
have I ever condoned or advocated
the kind of extremism and sterotypes you have just gone off on one accusing me about...!!!???

I am clearly only talking about a certain kind of charismatic individuals with character and background,
who are more captivating to ex Labour voters..

Successful right wing influencers are very good at seducing ordinary working class, and middle class folks..

I've perhaps wasted far more time than you
studying the bastards on the internet...???
Empirical research...

.. tommy was a tongue in cheek, though still serious, pointer
towards a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion,
who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

I qualified it with obvious "lefty" and "???"s
if you'd actually read what was clearly intended,
rather than getting het up over
what you thought I meant...

Maybe I could have gone even further and suggested adolf...!!!???

The point still remains, who the f@ck can Labour put up to fill that void
to fight fire with fire..

Could anyone like John Prescott even stand a chance
to rise up the Party hierarchy anymore,
as dominated as it seems by middle class careerists..


OPTIMISM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:34 AM

ps..

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson..

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:55 AM

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson.. Blair & Brown? Julius Caesar & Brutus/Cassius/Casca . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:56 AM

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...

If I remember rightly, he didn't. Watson was elected by the Labour party memebership, so in a way it is a mirror image of Starmer and Rayner.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 06:08 AM

DMcG - Fair cop.. I've never had a good memory for details...

If so, time for a rule change..

A new Leader needs to select a reliable deputy they can get on with and trust.
Stabilty at the very top of the party is absolutely essential...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 06:15 AM

btw..


.. before anyone else makes the mistake of tarring me
with far right extremism..

This is where the Polish branch of my family tree came to an abrupt end...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 08:05 AM

PFR - back atcher - What do you think I have accused you of? Maybe if you "actually read what was clearly intended, rather than getting het up over what you thought I meant" you may have seen that it was the Tommy Robinson comment you made that is the contentious point.

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians...

Reads remarkably like the odious Robinson is a straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic polition.

When you later go on to say

a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion, who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

Which 'certain social demographics do you believe will be influenced by the likes of Tommy Robinson?

I must admit though that you made me laugh when you tried to take the piss of background story and then attempted to trump it with your link about Polish Jews. Is there a 4 Jews, story? Gas chambers? Bloody luxury... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 09:15 AM

Right, yer buggers, I'm getting in on this Polish malarkey,.. My best mate at school was a Pole (we are still in touch), and I spent many a long evening at the Polish club in Bury (I also frequently inhabited the ones in Bolton and Rochdale). I met a lovely young Polish woman at the Bury club and we went out for several years, eventually getting engaged (she called it off much to my chagrin, but I rapidly ended up with Mrs Steve for the next 45 years and counting!). Many of their parents were Polish emigrés and they were all Catholics, big time. I was one of the few non-Poles in their social circle. They were nearly all viciously anti-Polish Jew, for reasons they didn't always make clear. Funnily enough, when I started teaching in London one of my best boozing buddies was the son of Polish-Jewish emigrés... He didn't give a flying fart about those ingrained animosities... I never did get my head round all that lot... I must have sung that Sto Lat song a thousand times, without having a clue what I was singing about!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:32 AM

I'm not just Polish though, Steve. Grandad was a Russian Orthodox priest who died of ill health brought on by mistreatment by Russian communists and having to leave Poland in a hurry because of the Nazis. When Grandad was incarcerated in Russia for his beliefs, Grandma had to make her own way back to Poland, on foot, with 2 young children, sleeping in ditches and living off the land. Beat that you buggers!

Apologies to all, especially PFR, for being a bit tetchy. I have been under considerable stress of late and, while that has lessened, it has been replaced with a whole new worry. Not ready to discuss yet but I assure all that if I have caused any offence, it is not anything you have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:48 AM

Well I guess the Tommy Robinson quip got me scratching my head a bit, but knowing that pfr is basically an all-round good egg I chose not to do any interpretive delving...

Yeah, we need a Prescott. A dodgy geezer at times but nowhere near as dodgy as the current twat in charge, and PMQs would have been nothing if not highly entertaining...

If I could ask Sir Keir just the one question, it would be "What have you got against feisty, grassroots northern working-class women?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:59 AM

When I was in infant school,
a polish family moved onto our Council estate.
Their young lad started at our school.

He was a complete novelty being a foreigner..
..and we'd piss ourselves laughing every time we heard, or tried to say his hilarious unpronounceable foreign name..

Our estate also had a Welshman and an Irish family..

Some might have said that was too many foreigners already...???

Many years later I saw my first black person walking on the estate.
He was a postman.
That got neighbours talking...

"Mother was a local girl,
she went with an American GI stationed here during the war - the scandal of it..
..but he's a nice postie all considering his colour.."

From then on he was the novelty friendly black postie.
Can't have been many other towns in Scrumpyshire that had one to compete with ours..

Then word got round, the next nearest bigger town had just got themselves an Indian doctor and his entire family..

Locals were split between those who feared being swamped and taken over like Enoch was warning;
and others who thought them an exotic new status symbol..

Back then our estate was solidly working class, most families working in the factory our homes were built to service.
Where my dad was a shop steward.

The factory Social club was the hub of the estate..

Our extended family was solidly Labour voters.
I'd presume most of the rest of the estate was as well.

But let's have no illusions about white working class labour voting ordinary folks.
On the whole I remember my estate being reactionary, small-minded, and thuggish..
As soon as I was selected for grammar school, I became shunned by my old school pals, and marked as a target..

.. and we were one of the better class estates in the area.
The respectable working class..

But I'm no historian or sociologist,
You'll just have to give my anecdotal account the benefit of the doubt
(Or not, I won't bother arguing)..

That was half a century ago.

When I was a teenager, Rock against racism and the anti-na@zi league put my head straight;
and rescued me from the institutionalized racist norm of my council estate childhood
But I was in a minority of college-educated local kids,
becoming politicised by radical ideas propagated via London music scene magazines...

It was only when I was 18 or 21,
that my mum summoned the courage to break it to me that I was part Jewish by blood.
The family had kept their dark secret from me all along that my Dunkirk hero grandad wasn't my real grandad after all.
I no longer had his DNA strengthening my body and being.
My real grandad who I'd never met was in fact a young feckless Jewish flash Harry who'd taken a fancy to my grandmother..

Mum implored me to keep the secret to myself..

Complex reasons too far back in time to ever fathom out...???

Fast forward a few years,
thatcher started selling off the council houses to factory workers on the estate, bribery for their votes..

Then the factory was suddenly closed down and everybody made redundant.
And those who could not keep up their mortgages, homeless..
Their homes sold on to all kinds of incomers to the estate.

Fortunately, my parent's political principles would not let them buy our council house.
Which is why I'm sat typing in it now,
as I am clearing it out in readiness to hand back to the housing association.
To hopefully continue for as long as possible as good quality social housing for a new young family...

These days, I honestly believe my old estate gradually became less overtly racist,
for various reasons throughout all the turmoil of the 1980s and forwards.
The estate is now more rainbow colours with black and mixed-race families.
Most of the town takeaways are kebabs pizzas Indian and Chinese.
It was a novelty when a proper fish and chip shop opened recently.
(Owned by a local Asian businessman).

Evidence of some genuine progress.

But I think it's safe to assume the build up to brexit has to a significant extent brought largely dormant incipient racism back to the foreground...???

Perfect hunting ground for far-right recruiters and their pernicious social media propaganda.

My cousins use racist language in casual conversation.
Total lack of awareness.
They are not thick or thuggish people.
Put it down to to environmental upbringing and quality of education...???

One of the west country's prominent far-right YouTube influencers lives in our vicinity...!!!

After I moved back from London to Scrumpyshire 20 years ago, I drank regularly in a local old established workingmens club.
I was seen as just another white middle-aged bloke who looked normal, liked his cider, and kept quietly to himself.
So their views were not withheld within my ear shot.

Times had changed, and they must have been aware that they could no longer make racist comments openly in public about Black, Asian and other Ethnic communities without risking getting into trouble.

So the Polish were a godsend to them.
Poles are white, so it was ok, they were fair game for endless old fashioned bitter racist hatred diatribes..

It was too easy to see direct links with the newspapers they were reading and the bitter dislike for Poles taking all our building jobs and rented accommodation..

Cue the onset of brexitering...


That is why Tommy Robinson and his ilk have been so successful..

And something the Labour party needs to take on board when profiling potential candidates for ex labour voting old traditional working class constituencies...

That is the obvious reason why I ask where are the lefty "Tommy Robinsons"...???

Not fukwit racist extremists, but solid working class motivated and inspiring blokes and blokettes who locals can identify with..

So in conclusion, bollocks to all the bollocks..

Let's keep our sense of humour and not fall into pointless stupid divisive bickering amongst ourselves..

We need our strength for fighting tories and their even worse allies...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:03 PM

Bloody 'ell PFR. You went to grammar school, university and lived in London? Middle class if ever I saw it... :-D I dropped out of 6th form college after the first term because I had a girlfriend and we wanted to marry. I did win a place on a day release economics degree at Wigan tech (miner's collage) but that stopped after the first term because there were only 3 of us doing it. I did pretty well at my day release ONC in business studies even though I spent most of my day release afternoons in the pub next door :-)

Funny you mention the Polish kid - I was that kid in 1957 Salford. No funny accent but a strange name was enough to get you beat up in those days. I was grateful when the first black kid started at our school in about 1960 and took the heat off me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:05 PM

...The other thing was the street entranced terrace I was dragged up in was directly facing the school!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:19 PM

University...!!!????

wot kind of toff do you think I am..

I went to a proper commie den of revolutionaries Polytechnic
to study the most lefty Humanities degree this side of the iron curtain..


Though I did get an offer from Bradford Uni to do social psychology..
But I'd just split up with a girlfriend up there on that course...

Shame, I really liked Bradford in the late 70s/early 80s...


So has anyone watched that "Optimism" link I posted...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:41 PM

Not watched it all as my attention span is too short! But I have been aware of the community wealth project in Preston for a long time. In fact, I have commented on it on here when discussing the role of responsible capitalism in socialist societies. I was quite surprised by the mention of Salford in the same piece as my experience of Salford council is a corrupt bunch of incompetents in the pocket of Peel Holdings. I suppose the leopard can change its spots. Andy Burnham seems ok but I don't know enough about him. If he brings Manchester buses back under public ownership, he'll do me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:22 PM

The is proof that everyone who voted who voted leave are racists who have now lost the right to call themselves human and should not even be entitled to breath our air. How do I know this will not happen to my partner when next time she comes to stay with me?

DISGUSTING

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:56 PM

Steve, it is not proof at all.I SUSPECT Denis Skinner Voted leave he is not a racist. i agree it is disgraceful what is happening , but it does not mean that all leave voters are racists, the vote happened some years ago and not every person who voted leave then would anticipate what is happening now, some of them may have imagined that the uk might be in a similiar position to norway.
no, the fault here lies with the uk government and those people who more recntly voted conservative, not what happened in 2016

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 May 21 - 01:10 PM

It is indisputable that people who voted leave enabled this to happen, and have to take their share of responsibility for this. May's 'hostile environment' showed clearly what the tory government would do.

If this was happening to UK nationals going to mainland Europe or to Ireland, then the gutter press would be up in the air demanding Europeans' blood.

This article is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 21 - 01:43 PM

I read it earlier and had the same thoughts, SPB. If this was happening to Brits entering Europe there would be an outrage in the tabloid press. However, I don't think all those who voted leave did so for racist reasons. However, given how close the result was, I have no doubt that the racist vote, fuelled by the contemptible toad, Farage, did tip the balance most severely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 02:51 PM

I agree that what is happening now is disgraceful, but blaming everyone who voted leave four years ago and calling them ALL racist is inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 02:59 PM

Steve, if you want to do something about this you would be better off contacting your local MP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 21 - 03:04 PM

Perhaps blame it on frumpy jealous brexiteer wives trying to keep sexy young Euro Au Pairs out of Britain...???

That would basically be the plot of "Carry On Brexit"...


Yes it might be that funny, if the reality of these harsh detainments wasn't so petty and cruel.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:32 PM

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 21 - 12:30 PM

Hello, it's gone a bit quiet down here, is anybody out there...

Anything happening in the wider outside world which might have caused our glorious strong leader starmer
to keep quietly out of the spotlight just right now...???

Has the soft slippery wazzock backed himself into a sticky situation,
where he daren't say anything for fear of being at the receiving end of a tirade of
hostile trumped up accusations from his friends in international high places;
who helped him into power as Labour leader...

He knows only too well what happened to the last bloke who had his job, when he innocently suggested a particular regime is acting far too far out of civilised humane order...

Hello.. anybody...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 21 - 12:51 PM

I wonder what any of our party leaders have to say about the fact that Israel is slaughtering children (again) with its non-smart target practice into Gaza? Haven't heard much... And this also looks like Biden's first massive failure. UN criticism of Israel was blocked by the US last week (so what's new?). The yanks had to allow today's Security Council meeting (in which they can carry on vetoing if necessary), even though they didn't want it, but had to give in in order to avoid a General Council meeting in which the US would have found itself isolated. Biden looks paralysed. How bloody disappointing. Tragic even. Here we go again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 21 - 05:29 PM

Here's a piece from the Guardian:

Four men have been arrested by officers investigating a video that appeared to show antisemitic abuse being shouted from a car in north London.

Politicians had earlier condemned the footage, which was posted on Twitter and showed the cars travelling through the St John’s Wood area on Sunday afternoon. The cars were covered in Palestinian flags with a speaker blasting out antisemitic slurs and threats against Jews.

Boris Johnson described it as an act of “shameful racism” and the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, said the video was “utterly disgusting”. Starmer tweeted: “Antisemitism, misogyny and hate have no place on our streets or in our society. There must be consequences.”

The prime minister said there was no place for antisemitism in our society. “Ahead of Shavuot, I stand with Britain’s Jews, who should not have to endure the type of shameful racism we have seen today,” he added.

That item was given extensive coverage on the BBC ten o'clock news. In the same bulletin we heard about dozens of civilians in Gaza slaughtered by Israeli air attacks, many of them children. The coverage of that was brief and we heard precisely NO condemnation from any politician on either side of the pond. We did see impressive footage of Israel's amazing anti-rocket armaments, of course. Don't you just love the bloody hypocrisy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 21 - 05:48 PM

Ditto..

My thoughts exactly..

And I've been watching BBC rolling news reports throughout the day...

That nasty hate speech against our friends, is far worse our our friends killing children...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 21 - 06:06 PM

From the Beeb.

In his own remarks, Biden has emphasised Israel’s right to self-defence, though in a phone call with Netanyahu on Saturday the president also “raised concerns about the safety and security of journalists”, following the bombing of the Gaza press building.

At the UN on Sunday, the Palestinian foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, took aim at Biden’s position.

“Remember that each time Israel hears a foreign leader speak of its right to defend itself, it is further emboldened to continue murdering entire families in their sleep,” Maliki told the security council.

For Christ's sake. "Journalists." Not kids, not women, not non-combatants, not the people struggling to maintain even the most basic water supplies and health services and schooling. This is going to define Joe Biden. He's no different to any of the other lily-livered, lobby-fearing presidents of the last sixty years, is he? Useless bugger...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 21 - 06:17 PM

Danny Danon, Former Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations,
is being interviewed live right now...

He seems a very nice chap..

.. Well.. he's a good friend, if you're afraid of what strings he and his regime can pull
to keep you in or out of political power in the West..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 21 - 06:18 PM

Nah, he's a c@nt...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 21 - 06:29 PM

I suppose that the fact that we're in a supposed Brit thread might protect us, for a bit at least, from those right-wing Yank Israel-apologist deniers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 21 - 06:37 PM

Nice weather for this time of the year...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 21 - 07:05 PM

And Alisson Becker has just scored a legendary goal...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 May 21 - 03:05 AM

whenever a politician or a journalist wants to lie to us they always put on the suit. the bigger the lie the more expensive the suit. they leave the behind the scenes dirty work to the uniform - the suits' military wing. suits are just protective armour against truth and decency. you don't get lies from a bereaved father in a t-shirt and sandals

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 21 - 04:16 AM

UK politicians now seem too cowed and timid to open their mouths in protest
against rogue state allies..

.. too afraid they might personally suffer the same hostile consequences as Corbyn...!!!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 21 - 05:36 AM

The pro-Israel lobbies in both major parties are mighty powerful and their knives are kept permanently sharpened. The best you'll get is "we condemn Hamas rockets and Israel has the right to defend itself." Same in America. No context is ever allowed or admitted to. The gun lobby, the pro-Israel lobby and the big corporations have got the US politicians in their pockets. What price democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 21 - 07:11 AM

spot on steve

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 21 - 05:32 PM

Benjamin Netanyahu protects his citizens and gives them all the security they need by killing 61 children in Gaza. The most sacred areas of Jerusalem, which would normally have been crowded today, were almost deserted, ordinary people frightened to go out. More vetos from the US (aka utter paralysis) and, well, I have hardly heard a word from the politicians here...

One fine day the citizens of Israel will see the light...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 21 - 05:44 PM

One tory mp was on BBC news today,
disgusted by rising antisemitism in London and Essex,
and UK social media posts gloryfying hamas...


.. nothing else seemed to be perturbing him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 17 May 21 - 08:15 PM

Both of these are from The New York Times. I really don't know if clicking on them will allow you to read them through the paywall) or not: Each one is different from my initial reactions, and each one of them is somewhat different from opinions posted in this thread so far:


Bret Stephens - If the left got its Wish for Israel

Thomas Friedman - For Bibi and Hamas it's always Jan06

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 17 May 21 - 10:45 PM

also opinion from one Bernie Sanders

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 21 - 11:11 PM

Careful, Steve. You will have your party membership revoked!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 21 - 04:08 AM

is the covid danger from indian variant being exaggerated ,please note this is a question not a statement, as the medida seem to like to sensationalise, neiher am i saying there is not a danger, so varying opinions welcome

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 21 - 04:31 AM

The NYT piece is fantasy with some scraps of food for thought lurking like tiny little jewels in a crock of shite. Here's the nub:

"But perhaps the progressive Israeli government might yet succeed if a U.N.-sanctioned, U.S.-led force — you might almost call it a mandate — agreed to deploy peacekeeping forces to guarantee Jewish rights and security."

A truly progressive Israel would immediately ditch the need "to guarantee Jewish rights and security" and start talking about guaranteeing the rights and security of all Israelis, the 20% Arabs in the population and the Christians, and the rest, alike. Anything less is not progressive and won't work. Your writer seems to be displaying the same old stale predictions to the same old stale scenario. If you don't start from the position that there is massive discrimination in Israel against non-Jews, Arabs in particular, you haven't a hope of solving this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 21 - 04:38 AM

I can't get past the headline of the other two pieces. Bernie may well be right, but he forgets that the iron grip of the US pro-Israel lobby would thereby ensure that Biden was toast. Refusing to veto resolutions critical of the Israeli regime would be a bloody good start, but, for that same reason, it won't happen. For many decades the US has enabled this problem to persist, and Biden doesn't look like changing anything. "I would support a ceasefire" is as far as it will ever go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 21 - 10:53 AM

If starmer and other conservatives don't get up in arms and disgusted over this shocking breaking news,
I will feel seriously disappointed and severely let down...

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink/bristol-bar-owner-fuming-after-5427386.amp

It's that bloody protest mad Bristol again,
Not content with chucking slaver statues in the river, or trying to demolish police stations.
Now they're vandalising the Great British tradition of beer drinking..

This sort of foul graffiti should be kept inside on toilet doors,
as is the proper beer drinking tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 21 - 07:15 PM

So Prince Willie wades in to excoriate the BBC over the 1995 Diana interview. It was a vile deceit that got Bashir his interview (though it also exposed some royal gullibility...) and the Beeb handled it very badly. But make no mistake, the royals and their satellites and acolytes are past masters when it comes to exploiting a mostly-sycophantic media for their own ends. It ill-behoves them to whine when on the odd occasion they get duped. And by the way, Meghan and Harry have been abused by the mass newspaper media for several years, yet not once do I recall Prince Willie sticking up for his little brother. I suppose it was because those same papers were locked in a love affair with him and Kate, so why would he ruffle their feathers? The stench of hypocrisy is almost overpowering. Put a sock in it, Willie...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 21 - 09:20 PM

So far no BBC news item I've seen has adequately explained, not even bothered trying to explain,
the relevance of these bank statements, and why they were so important to Di's brother...???

"Show me bank statements and I'll let you talk to my sister"..

Eh.. what was all that about then..?????

My obvious natural impulse is to be highly suspicious of that brother...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 21 - 11:42 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sUsvy4VHX0

4 mins of grim hilarity...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 May 21 - 02:59 AM

yes...as james o'brien put it - if you are still supporting johnson and the tories then you are a member of a deluded cult

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 21 - 01:09 PM

Was 'cult' a spelling mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 21 - 04:11 AM

Maybe Willie doesn't care for his half brother Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:41 AM

To be fair to Harry and Lady Di, the red hair genes are autosomal recessive and can stay in the background for several generations until both prospective parents happen to be carriers, and even then there's only a one in four chance of their child being a redhead. To me, Harry's facial features do resemble Charles's to an extent. If Hewitt was Harry's dad, then Diana would also have been carrying the genes, suggesting that the genes were in her family anyway, and were just waiting fo their chance to pop out...

Genetics was always my weak spot at university, so I stand to be corrected...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:47 AM

Who has got half a willie? How does he cope?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 21 - 06:22 AM

Better than having a bent one. You wouldn't know whether you were coming or going...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 21 - 06:41 AM

So yet another full day of sanctimonious royal bollocks dominating TV news..

That William is going to be one insufferable priggish Pillock of a king..


Royalty couldn't get much worse if Simon cowell who was given the job of finding a replacement family for the job..

At least we'd have a gloriously tripe Saturday teatime TV show to take the piss out of...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 21 - 06:53 AM

I have always said that if we only keep royalty as a tourist attraction, it should be taken over by Disney. Imagine the money we could make then and the Disney Corp would soon put a stop to all these shenanigans :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 21 - 02:52 PM

PFR: Royalty couldn't get much worse if Simon cowell who was given the job of finding a replacement family for the job..

In English please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 21 - 03:31 PM

English...???

Ok, **** off you pedantic supercilious ****...

You're lucky I've got a good sense of humour,
and don't take smug folks too seriously...

Yes I know that sentence was flawed,
I noticed immediately it was posted.

If my eyesight wasn't failing, I'd not have accidentally pressed submit before I'd finished proofreading
on this tiny smartphone screen and typing pad...

Let me guess, you're a royalist...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 21 - 03:36 PM

Yes, I'm a royalist (to some extent). But that still doesn't help me make any sense of your post.

Swearing at me (presumably that's what the asterisks replace) adds nothing to your earlier post, but is what I have come to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 21 - 04:31 PM

The typical smarmy tory response of,

"Ooh, how dare you swear at me, I'm your superior...!!!"

Nearly always deployed to deflect from their own far more objectionable provocative behaviour...

Gotcha, royal fanboy...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:34 PM

The typical smarmy tory response of,

"Ooh, how dare you swear at me, I'm your superior...!!!"

I never claimed to be your superior. But if that's what you believe I'll let it go on this occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 21 - 05:51 PM

petty minded conformist snobbery goes hand in hand with deference to royalty...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 21 - 07:51 PM

Exceptions exist. For example I thought Steve was too proper for a beard and was clean shaven like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 21 - 07:55 PM

I had no difficulty understanding either the substantive or the nuance of pfr's post, Nigel. I'm a bit surprised that you, of all people, knowing your predilection for over-analysing and nitpicking others' posts, should have such "difficulty." Blinded, perhaps, by your tendency towards royal sycophancy...? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 21 - 08:19 PM

Piss off, Donuel. You know so little of US politics, so you are as welcome in this thread as a fart in a spacesuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 May 21 - 04:46 AM

Interesting piece on R4.

My interpretation was that Johnson is incapable of making coherent and consistent decisions on the grounds that he basis his decisions' and announcements on his overarching policy of staying in No 10, no latter what the public health, social and economic cost is.

Because of that he has to base his actions not upon the goodwill and welfare of the electorate who can do nothing but sit there with their mouths shut for another 4 years, but react to the whims of his rabid back benchers who can remove him at a moment's notice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 21 - 10:29 PM

news about news

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 21 - 09:47 AM

They won’t remind us, but the tabloids hurt Diana just as much as Panorama did, a superb piece by Marina Hyde in last Friday's Guardian which highlights the hypocrisyfest currently swamping the media about Bashir and the BBC. The Beeb (of course) gets it in the neck, even though Diana wanted the interview, said similar things in other interviews and had been humiliated by Charles admitting his unfaithfulness to a Dimbleby in an interview. And the hypocrisy, then and now, of the tabloids is just staggering. And Piers Morgan and Kelvin McKenzie (!) excoriating the BBC. Journalists who lied and lied and hacked little girls' phones...You couldn't make it up (though they did, all the time). Johnson expressing concern about the duplicitous Beeb when he is one of the most duplicitous people on the planet...Prince William, shooting his mouth off about things he simply doesn't get. Unqualified people here, there and everywhere (including him) spouting about Diana's mental health and "paranoia". Her stupid brother trying to make a direct link between the interview and the car crash that killed her during her jolly in Paris with Dodi two years later...And the great British public, buying those bloody papers and provoking more and more royal digging, the tabloids' non-stop feeding frenzy on the royals, who simply love the attention anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 21 - 10:30 AM

We have our differences on the topics of Man’s Best Friend, and the appalling, shameful spectacle of LP members more interested in fighting each other than they are in taking on the foulest bunch of Tory crooks and liars in living memory, Steve, but I’m in complete agreement with everything you say in your post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 21 - 10:57 AM

If anyone has the time, the link I posted relates too uncomfortably with Steve's post..

ie, the surreptitious covert active purging of any non right-wing voices from international journalism.
On any flimsiest of pretexts..

Yeah, vested interest Beeb bashers
will take advantage of the slightest opportunity for launching hostile attacks on the entire corporation..

In this instance, exploiting the dodgy actions of a handful of BBC staff
for ramping up across the whole board editorial interference from the tory party and their pay masters...

It'd be just the same as folks who don't like the tories,
damning the entire party and the their cronies as unscrupulous corrupt callous sociopathic bastards...

.. oh....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 May 21 - 12:21 PM

Who likes a whistleblower,grass,nark, snitch etc etc?I guess it depends on which group or organisation is having its secrets exposed.

Prince William is probably happy in having   some light thrown on the intrigue involved in Bashir securing that interview. No doubt he is grateful to the people who helped expose it. Those whistleblowers are good.

On the other hand, Prince William is probably not too happy with Prince Harry & Meghan spilling the beans about their relationship with the 'firm'. Those whistleblowers are bad.

"And the great British public, buying those bloody papers and provoking more and more royal digging, the tabloids' non-stop feeding frenzy on the royals, who simply love the attention anyway..."

Does this include those members of the great British public who watched the Harry & Meghan interview with Oprah?

Personally what I find more important is the cover up by the BBC over the intervening years. That is far worse than the Bashir shenanigans. People lost their jobs as a result of that cover up. We will have to wait and see if we will ever find out the full facts about it. We might even find out how Bashir managed to be employed again by the BBC and then allowed to resign before the Dyson report was published.

Why do people cover up things? Some do so in order to hide their own wrongdoings. But what of those people who were not involved in the original wrongdoing? Why do they continue to cover up? Some might be rewarded to do so. Others do it in order to protect the reputation of the organisation they work for. They might do it for good reasons but it is still wrong to do it. It rarely turns out well in the end.

It was a good article by Marina Hyde in Saturday's Guardian newspaper. Nice to see mention of the Private Eye issue which got banned by W H Smiths.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 21 - 07:35 PM

Well let's have a think about that. First, in this country the major television companies are tightly regulated in a way that the tabloids are patently not. Blatant right- or left-wing bias is not tolerated, for example. Second, my taxes help to buoy up the royals. I have a right to be interested in what they get up to. My responsibility is to choose my sources of information carefully. Everybody on this thread who is talking about the royals has had to resort to the media to inform themselves. There is no other way. The interviews we are discussing here, namely the Bashir one and the Oprah one, were carefully constructed and conducted in measured tones. Whether they are valid and relevant documents is moot, but that much is clear. The coverage of the royals in the tabloids is routinely sycophantic to one "side" and excoriating to the other (the "sides" may or may not be the invention of the tabloids, but they are certainly exaggerated in the way the imagined confrontations are reported). It's about selling papers, not giving a carefully-balanced account of issues in the royal family. And the royals are fully complicit. Harry can whinge all he likes about the tabloids, but he is currently exploiting the tabloid hunger for royal titbits in the US to make his living. It's what you do if you are one of 'em. So whether we should have watched Oprah or not...dunno really. It wasn't quite the Daily Mail, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 21 - 08:34 PM

I did view the link, pfr, and it was painfully relevant. Ash and Owen Jones are my current favourite lefties, but don't eloquent lefties talk a lot... The US and Israel are umbilically connected for sure. Emasculation of the press is just one upshot of that and the roles of those lobby groups is to make sure the cord is never cut. I suppose that massive numbers of Americans either don't care about Palestine or are simply not up to speed (political ignorance is so useful for the right...) Thing is, in general elections not one person voted for AIPAC or a big corporation or the gun lobby, but they, not the elected politicians, are the ones who decide what happens in the country in large part. Democracy can go hang...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 21 - 08:55 PM

The left is dead or dying in the UK and similarities to US politics is more distant than ever. But the US footprint is growing in Premiere league ownership.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 21 - 09:52 PM

you left out the question mark..

" The left is dead or dying in the UK ? "...???

..at least I'd hope you intended that as a question..


Because frankly we are sick of American propagandists swamping social media
with their overwhelming evangelical determination to permanently vanquish the left in our UK politics...


American billionaires and their army of subsidised internet influencers/indoctrinators,
are a diabolical force for spreading the contagion of alt right US imperialism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 21 - 07:50 AM

The left is neither dead nor dying. Concerted efforts to demonise and ridicule us are not the way to see us off. The media find it easy to make us unpopular, and the outlets for our voices to be properly heard are few. But we won't be going away any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 May 21 - 03:20 PM

agree. there may not be so many prepared to identify with the current labour party or be union members. i don't know if the term 'left' means much anymore, but many progressive and diverse groups are lively and committed - particularly in respect of the environment. from biden in the usa to greens in germany (and here) parliamentary democracy is making a bit of a comeback. although the daily news is grim and the tories evil and ridiculous - i feel they have peaked and a slow wave of decency and progress may well be on the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 21 - 05:19 PM

Early days of hope. pete...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 21 - 06:16 PM

So now we have a report on what we all knew, that the Tory party is riddled with Islamophobia (its leader being the most egregious offender). Even Baroness Warsi thinks that the report has been a whitewash. So I wonder whether the Tory backbenchers will do a Jeremy on Johnson and hound him, if not out, into a disastrous election loss...

Or will pigs fly...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 May 21 - 05:57 AM

Cummings just stated that Hancock should have been fired for repeatedly lying to the cabinet and the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 21 - 06:44 AM

An nteresting opinion-piece from Attila The Stockbroker on his FB page this morning. His posts are ‘shareable’, but I’ve C&P’d because I’m not comfortable linking to FB, for fear of giving away others’ identities, but if you’re a FB-user, you can find ATS’s page via the search utility.

I have to say that I can find no fault with anything he says...

”Now I don’t trust Dominic Cummings further than I can throw him. Obviously.

But however you interpret his description of the Home Office as ‘terrifyingly shit’, his assertion that lockdown should have started in the first week of March, and his description of officials committed to ideas of herd immunity, this is a government which has presided over a national catastrophe on a scale which was manifestly avoidable.

And the fact that its approval ratings (in England only, that goes without saying) are at something approaching 50% speaks volumes about the utter servility of most of our media and the abject level of understanding vast swathes of people have about issues of, quite literally, life and death.

A lack of understanding celebrated by the Tories’ shameless, overprivileged charlatan cabal as ‘the British people are fed up with experts’ and ‘emotions are more important than facts’ - while calling us, ordinary people who take the trouble to think for ourselves, ‘an elite’.

Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us.

And by ‘us’ I’m not talking about these fabled ‘metropolitan liberals’. I’m talking about people like my best mate Steve, who grew up in an Essex newtown, left school at 16 and is one of the most intelligent, clear sighted people I have ever met. According to the Tories, he’s ‘elite’ too, as are millions of us like jinx

To not be part of ‘the Tories’ fake ‘left wing elite’ these days you have to be a cap-doffing forelock tugger grovelling to their real right wing one!

This is a government of contemptible charlatans who should be thrown out of office and, in many cases, put on trial.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 May 21 - 07:05 AM

"There was not even a plan to bury all the bodies ......"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 21 - 08:54 AM

"Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us."

My dad, going back decades, always railed against this, calling it the "cult of the philistine."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:56 AM

At Poly in the early 80s, I had a lecturer with a toxic maladjusted personality..

She'd been one of the original late 1960s Marxist workers revolutionary uprising students..

In 1983 she was a comfortably well off middle-aged middle-class ideology lecturer..

Whatever her reason, she targeted me for a lot of her spiteful bitterness.

Once I innocently and naively questioned something she said in a seminar, suggesting she hadn't explained it clearly for us to take in and understand..

Her immediate reaction was to damn me with the accusation that I was "anti-intellectual"...!!!???

Then continue to bully me for remainder of the year, trying to destroy my confidence,
hinting I should resign from my degree..

So naturally, I have long since been wary of that kind of bitter academic 'socialist'...

Btw, I spent that summer vacation working at Butlins to get my head back together grounded in proper working-class culture..

F*** the elitist academics...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 21 - 12:50 PM

Butlins? F***ing BUTLINS!?!?!?!

We could only dream of going on holiday, never mind to Butlins. Nowt working class about them. Upper class rich place as far as us guttersnipes were concerned...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 21 - 01:41 PM

Anyone watching the (s)cummings interviews BTW? It seems he is tying his colours to the Sunak mast.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 21 - 02:07 PM

Dtg - you should have saved the Butlins coupons out the newspapers
before you wiped yer bum with 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 26 May 21 - 03:36 PM

Well that was a more interesting 7 hours of TV han most that's been on recently.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 May 21 - 01:55 PM

well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 21 - 02:56 PM

well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars

That pre-supposes that the current government are liars.
The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 May 21 - 03:02 PM

Cummings is a shit of the highest order.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 21 - 03:07 PM

From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 29 May 21 - 03:02 PM

Cummings is a shit of the highest order.

Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:07 PM

could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:25 PM

From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:07 PM

could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government?

Likewise, could you explain your question? Is it aimed at me, or at Bonzo3legs?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:48 PM

both of you

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:53 PM

Cummings appears to be backing rishi sunak as the next leader , i thought you might be in support of that, or do you think that johnson is your most likely to win the next election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 21 - 06:03 PM

Cummings is everything bad that has been said in this thread. But the challenge is to show that his narrative is a pack of lies if you don't like him. I think you might have an uphill struggle there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 21 - 05:26 AM

That pre-supposes that the current government are liars.

For the umpteenth time

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

I shall not tire of posting that link while you are in denial

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 21 - 06:36 AM

"The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'

.. seems to who...???

Since when has shit ever been a tasty favour...!!!???


It's more like watching a pack of cornered plague rats turning on each other tooth and claw
in a desperate fight for self preservation...

The 'left' are the rat catchers waiting to finish off the survivors...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 21 - 07:35 AM

cummings is a spoilt shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 21 - 07:58 AM

The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'.

That is not what I am seeing. Most of comments I have seen from those on the left are roughly the same as mine: Cummings is untrustworthy and has probably been extremely selective in what he chose not to say, as well as what he said. There are, however, lots of ways of checking various parts of his remarks: videos, Hansard entries, the experience of care homes and many others. So we do not rely on what Cummings said in isolation.

Conversely, I have yet to see an argument from the other side that is much more than "Cummings cannot be trusted." If there is a detailed account anywhere it support the government's statements.

For reference here is the relevant Hansard entry of the discussion on 19th May 2020.

I would pay particular attention to which statements are in the present tense (i.e. saying they were happening at the time) and which are in the future tense (saying they are planned but not happening). I would also suggest people think about phrases like "Fourthly, we are supporting care homes to get the PPE that they need." It does not, for example, mean the homes actually have the PPE they need or are getting it. You could claim a leaflet describing PPE was such support if you felt inclined.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 May 21 - 10:15 AM

Cummings is a self-serving, despicable piece of work, but notwithstanding, even if the motivation for the evidence he brought to the select committee is nothing other than covering his own back and/or stabbing is former /colleagues' in the back once they ceased to be of use to him his does not in anyway diminish the chain of incompetence, corruption and possible criminal negligence by the Prime Minister and his government and cohorts.

If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 21 - 11:59 AM

Sometimes very bad people can do very good things..
Whether or not that was the intended outcome...


.. my favourite Western movies tend to be the ones where it's difficult to distinguish all along which characters were really the goodies or the baddies..

As long as the climactic shootout ends with the despicable Johnson outlaw gang
being shot to pieces and run out of town by cold cruel snake eyes Clint Cummings...

Cummings limps off wounded into the sunset.
But he lives to ride again..

.. though on which side of good or evil ?
can the downtrodden frontier townsfolk ever truly know...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 21 - 12:55 PM

"If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society."

No no no no no no no, what absolute rubbish, to what are you comparing them ??? Answer nothing, because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history. Ignorance of what - the unknown??? You are talking absolute bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 21 - 01:00 PM

The consequence of that argument, Bonzo, is that Johnson could have done anything all they liked, or nothing at all, and you could still say they have no responsibility because there is nothing to compare it to.

There are things to compare it to, though. Some are actual, like actions taken by other countries, and some are mathematical models, but each can help us decide whether decisions were good or bad, timely or untimely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 21 - 01:06 PM

Bonz - we know it's your knee jerk reaction to defend your party.. fair enough..

But have you already forgotten how much you disliked Johnson when he became leader..

I think I remember you had some rather justifiably crude things to say about him back then..

We accept you are a loyal tory,
but come on you can't be that hostile to everything a lefty alleges, no matter how true it might be...

In your private thoughts, you must accept the gang of cronies Johnson brought him with him are too corrupt and incompetent,
compared to the good old fashioned tory moderates who were permanently driven out your party...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 21 - 01:25 PM

because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history.

Bollocks. "Spanish" flu after WW1 was every bit as much a pandemic as this one. It just didn't have an internet full of knobheads spinning conspiracy theories!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 30 May 21 - 01:47 PM

HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri
Date: 30 May 21 - 02:19 PM

"HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa."

Maybe you should look up the meaning of "PANdemic"? Also, HIV/Aids isn't passed through the air, and it's a lot less deadly these days.
Gnome, you think the Spanish Flu was recent!?
Y'all ever feel like you're working too hard to pick a fight? Yeah, I'm out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 21 - 03:55 PM

"HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa."

If only Africa had more mosquito nets then every year we could save millions of mosquitoes from dying needlessly of aids!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 21 - 04:30 PM

i predict priti patel will be next leaderof the conservatives

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 May 21 - 05:15 PM

I think she could be less of a disaster than Gove!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 21 - 02:15 AM

what was it she did connected with israel that was unethical?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 21 - 02:41 AM

Yes, Jeri. WW1 is recent history as opposed to ancient history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 21 - 03:44 AM

It is off topic, I am afraid, but DtG's question raises an interesting question. In terms of medical knowledge and ability to cure illnesses, is WW1 closer to Ancient Greece than it is to today? I think a case could be made.

But I won't here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 21 - 08:16 AM

.. and not forgetting we survived "Mad Cow Disease" in our lifetime...

.. how many undiagnosed cases of that might explain all the crazy political decisions
of the last decade or so...!!!????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 May 21 - 08:42 AM

Compare alleged "crazy political decisions" of this government with "crazy political decisions" of last labour government!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 21 - 09:26 AM

If HIV-Aids occurs on a considerable scale across multiple countries within the continent of Africa, then the term pandemic is perfectly appropriate. And I checked that across mulitiple dictionaries. The flu outbreak of 1918 is recent enough for us still to take lessons from. Being properly prepared as a nation for a sudden pandemic is a lesson we should have learned but didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 21 - 09:27 AM

ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...???

Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:00 AM

ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...???

Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths...

Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did.
It is arguable that more may have been saved if Boris had made different decisions, but it is also likely we will never know.
Boris is attempting to balance the protection of human life (or even just delaying deaths to protect the NHS) with protecting the UK as a viable economy.
He also has to look at deaths caused (indirectly) by lockdown etc. causing missed diagnoses of terminal illnesses.

Boris is not perfect, but he is handling a job for which few others would wish to take the responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:24 AM

Nigel - basically your reply is far too reminiscent of the standard denial mode
of American anti gun control apologists and lobbyists...


"Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did."

.. well covid couldn't have had a more helpful sidekick and enabler than boris on it's British homeland mass killing spree...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:30 AM

Evening Standard on 8th June 2020:
Matt Hancock insisted “there just isn’t a trade-off” between the economy and health as he unveiled his plans to protect social care services.

The Health Secretary denied there was any trade-off between protecting the economy and protecting health as the government gradually eases lockdown restrictions.


Seems he disagrees with you, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:50 AM

Thanks, Steve.

As someone who actually has 'O' level Greek and, more importantly, worked on public health strategy in central London for several years, I'm well aware of the meaning of pandemic, unlike Jeri it seems.

Literally, it means the whole (or all the) people. It does not have to apply to the entire world population, but can be used to refer to a continent or a bloc of countries.

My point in raising the issue was that there is more than just one pandemic currently affecting the health of a people at this present time. The Cemtral and West African outbreaks of the Ebola virus in 2014-2016 were rightly termed a pandemic because of the large number of people affected. For the record, Ebola virus disease has a fatality rate of 50%, somewhat higher than the Covid-19 mortality rate.

Apologies for diverting this thread.

Returning to UK politics, does anyone have any theories why Cummings's seven-hour marathon a) flattered Sunak, or b) didn't mention Gove at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:59 AM

It seems that the Evening Standard headline disagrees with me.
The actual quote in the article is a little more nuanced:
“It is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health. A second spike would be hugely damaging to the economy. Of course, there are arguments over timing.

“But ... things are moving in the right direction, that is why we are able to say that coronavirus is in retreat.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 21 - 12:46 PM

Ah, so "it is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health" actually means "Of course we think there is a trade off".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 21 - 12:57 PM

John Stewart on Scottish independence... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 21 - 12:58 PM

This video is of relevance.

I do not think the "nuances" mean we disregard the first few sentences. I interpret them as meaning that we can choose things to help the economy within the constraint of the first sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 21 - 01:02 PM

As someone with an "Excellent" level ability to search the internet,

An outbreak is called an epidemic when there is a sudden increase in cases. As COVID-19 began spreading in Wuhan, China, it became an epidemic. Because the disease then spread across several countries and affected a large number of people, it was classified as a pandemic. From the much-battered Centers for Disease Control (CDC).

Ebola was an "Outbreak" in a few countries. Nasty as it was, it didn't spread all over the place.

• Epidemic: Sudden increase in cases of a disease.
  
  
• Epidemiology: Study of disease and other health outcomes, their causes in a population, and how they can be controlled.
  
  
• Outbreak: A higher-­than-expected number of occurrences of disease in a specific location and time.
  
  
• Pandemic: Event in which a disease spreads across several countries and affects a large number of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 21 - 01:15 PM

Are some Americans getting a bit bored with their own threads today...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 31 May 21 - 01:49 PM

'Ebola was an "Outbreak" in a few countries. Nasty as it was, it didn't spread all over the place.'

Yes it did, if one counts the whole continent of Africa as 'all over the place'.


WHO - Ebola

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 21 - 03:20 PM

Not to quibble about the horrific severity of ebola, but it spread across a region of the continent - it didn't spread from Egypt to South Africa, it spread across a sub-Saharan swath:

The Ebola virus causes an acute, serious illness which is often fatal if untreated. EVD first appeared in 1976 in 2 simultaneous outbreaks, one in what is now Nzara, South Sudan, and the other in Yambuku, DRC. The latter occurred in a village near the Ebola River, from which the disease takes its name.

The 2014–2016 outbreak in West Africa was the largest Ebola outbreak since the virus was first discovered in 1976. The outbreak started in Guinea and then moved across land borders to Sierra Leone and Liberia.

A few cases jumped across the ocean and were caught. It wasn't a global pandemic. Everyone around the globe understands "pandemic" when discussing experiences with SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 21 - 07:22 PM

Jeri has removed a perfectly civil post of mine which stated that the term pandemic was appropriate, according to multiple dictionaries, for a disease that occurred in considerable quantity across multiple nations in a region such as the continent of Africa. That was a civil response to her acerbic attack on Geoff, incorrectly asserting that he had misused the word pandemic. I also stated my opinion, equally civilly, that the flu pandemic of 2018 was recent enough for us to take lessons from, and that this country had failed to take the lesson that we should be prepared, as a nation, for sudden pandemics. That was the gist of my post and I have no idea why Jeri should have removed it. I do take time over my posts and I think I deserve slightly better treatment than this. This post will be copied in case it gets deleted again. There is a definite problem here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 21 - 07:27 PM

I must abjectly apologise for that last post. I didn't scroll far enough back to see that my post was still there. It's been a long day and I haven't been keeping up very well. I'm sorry, Jeri. I'll do better in future... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 21 - 07:34 PM

Thing is, Maggie, if you say pandemic it means one thing. If you say global pandemic, it means something different. I may have blotted my copybook here, but do consult any dictionary you like. If you want want pandemic to mean all over the world, then the qualifier "global" is rather necessary...

No fight intended, just clarity...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 21 - 11:30 PM

If I die of a pandemic or a global pandemic..

I'll feel a lot better now I know the difference...


So then, back to British politics today, in our single permitted thread..

.. hopefully, if it's ok with our American mod friends...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS45xUYiEZY

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 02:26 AM

"Returning to UK politics, does anyone have any theories why Cummings's seven-hour marathon a) flattered Sunak, or b) didn't mention Gove at all?"

I guess because he has not fallen out with them, yet.


The Observer reported that the commitee was going to ask Cummings for proof about his comments on Hancock before Hancock appears before them. For all that he said, Cummings would appear to have offered up no evidence to back up his claims. We are living in strange times. He said they said etc.,including whoever briefed The Observer on this particular story.


"I predict priti patel will be next leaderof the conservatives"

That made me laugh, though if it ever happens i will probably cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 03:51 AM

It would be very gratifying if both Patel and her bosom-buddy Netanyahu got booted out of politics so that they could spend more time together and were doing no further harm. Pigs might fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 08:31 AM

I'm betting on flying pigs. I think Bibi will go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 08:41 AM

bibi? I mean
Bebe and Bobo too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 03:02 PM

‘Another Angry Voice’ hitting the nail fairly and squarely on the head, on their FB Page today. (C&Pd in order to avoid inadvertently identifying other individuals)...

”Imagine a female politician had 6+ children with at least three different men, and refused to be honest with the public about how many kids she'd actually had.

Imagine she had an affair while her husband was undergoing cancer treatment, and the himbo she was screwing ended up receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds from her government department while the affair was going on, and without the affair ever being registered as one of her interests.

Imagine that this female politician had even been sacked from her own party's front bench for barefaced lying to the party leader about one of her affairs.

And imagine that she wasn't just a serial adulterer, but an inveterate liar, and a disgusting bigot to boot.

It's absolutely unimaginable that a woman like that would make it to Prime Minister. In fact, no matter what her party political affiliation, it's beyond doubt that the tabloid propaganda rags would have absolutely savaged her, using all of the gender-specific armoury of terms used against women who sleep around, and they wouldn't have stopped until they drove her out of public life.

But because the lying, adulterous bigot is their own beloved Boris, who is not just male, but a professional liar from the corporate media hack pack just like they are, they don't just give him a free pass on what they'd be slamming anyone else for, they actively run his propaganda operations for him.

Britain used to be a place where sexual impropriety was frowned upon, and a politician's affair with his secretary was enough for him to resign from public life in disgrace, but now things have tilted so far in the opposite direction that we don't just tolerate serial infidelity and outright dishonesty about it, we've elevated the most notoriously dishonest philanderer in British politics to serve as Prime Minister of the nation.

And it's absolutely impossible to imagine that such a dishonest and adulterous figure would have achieved this kind of political success if they'd been female.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM

Spot on BWM but we will hear no condemnation from our resident BoJo supporters. Nor will we hear any from the main stream meadia. He is not Jeremy Corbyn!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 04:19 PM

Quite so, Dave. None are so blind as they who will only see what their Tory propaganda machine tells them they must see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 09:21 AM

Patel and Netanyahu breeding?? The thought of it would put me off my dinner for the rest of my life!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:39 AM

Very good piece in Yorkshire Bylines

I doubt if even our rabid right supporters will find much to disagree with the opening paragraph

Whether you supported Brexit or not, there’s no doubt that there has been a cost for all of us. Brexit has been the thief in the night that has stolen our vision of the future. For those in favour of close ties with the EU, that relationship has been soured, and our rights diminished. For those that looked forward to a brighter new day, outside of the EU, the view ahead is not quite what was expected, or promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

They may well know that it’s true, Dave, but they’ll never admit it. To do so would be to admit they were fools, bamboozled by the lies and bullshit of Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit - it ain’t gonna happen, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:28 AM

What future?????

To be hones the only point of living is just to tick days off on life's calendar, and each day passing being one day left to live.

Let's be honest, we are living in a state that is resembling nazism more and more day by day, even to the state that fascists employed by the home office willingly obey orders in deciding whether people in relationships from different countries should be prevented from diluting the purity of British blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM

Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit

BWM,
I wish you would use names instead of insults. I have a hard enough time following arguments in this mish-mash of a thread, which lumps together so many diverse topics, without having to solve cryptic clues.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 09:04 AM

And I wish you’d mind your own business Doug. You’re not a Mod, you have no authority around here so, in the interests of keeping the peace, and keeping this thread open, perhaps it would be best if you keep your ‘advice’ to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 09:22 AM

I assume they are faridge, gove and johnson though I do think it is defamatory comparing that wonderful childrens' tv character with that overbloated self-serving liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 10:38 AM

Correct, SPB-C. Doesn’t take a degree in Astro-physics to work them out, does it? Just a bit of imagination and a sense of humour - apparently sadly lacking in some forum contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 10:45 AM

Shut your mouths and eat humble pie remoaners..

The future of brexit Britain is brilliant..

We have now successfully accomplished a major trade deal with Liechtenstein...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM

You're kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:45 AM

It’s extremely frustrating when a post criticising me personally is permitted by the Mods to remain, yet my perfectly civil response is removed. Would it be too much to ask for the Mods to show some common sense and consistency please and, if they are going to remove a response to a post, also remove the post that gave rise to it.

It’s not rocket-science.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM

Unless I have missed something, your reply seems to be there at 9:04 AM.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:08 PM

I’m sure it disappeared briefly, then reappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:17 PM

i did not recognise who you were describing other than johnson, either, i thought haddock face was patel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:26 PM

The problem for me was that I have never looked a haddock in the face, so the comparison didn't work.
I know who looks like a scarecrow and I know which politician came from Scotland, but I assumed the haddock must be Cummings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM

So now the woke organisations are dispensing with the word “mother” and replacing it with “parent who has given birth”? Really? My parent who gave birth is now up in Heaven along with my parent who did not give birth.

Winkie wankie wokies again!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM

I’m confident that the person I was responding directly to - Dave the Gnome - understood precisely whom I was referring to. And anyone who didn’t know was perfectly at liberty to ask for clarification, and I would happily have explained. However, personal criticism seldom achieves a satisfactory outcome. Hopefully a lesson learned...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

Whilst there have been a few (what appear to me me to be) peculiar decisions, some of which I've been on the sharp end of, I've said it before and I'll say it again: don't berate the moderators over their efforts in tidying up threads. One vexatious post can generate a labyrinthine tidying-up job if there are multiple replies to it and keeping a thread looking sensible under such circumstances is tough. So let's agree to knock off the criticism and be a bit more, er, stoical about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

it would have been easier to understand if you had said farage gove johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

You’re right of course, Steve, and point taken here. Hopefully, it will be taken by others too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 01:22 PM

.. and yet another highly successful distraction attack, wasting our time and attention..

A petty pedantic row about haddock faces / etc, diverting focus away from real criticism
of this deplorble govt and their corrupt cabal..

Well done haddock face, viper, and gummidge fanboys...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 01:32 PM

Using "person who has given birth" might get a bit complicated when someone has what are now called a birth mother and an adoptive mother - "birth person who has given birth" and "adoptive person who didn't give birth", along with "adoptive partner of person who didn't give birth"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:12 PM

I thought my usual description of nicotine stained man toad was better than haddock face but, yes, I know who you meant.:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM

I just heard that 'step' parent is being phased out for 'bonus' parent.
To which my reaction is: 'meh'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.

I find myself a bit torn on this one, though I have in the end decided to opt-out. However, the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation: it is simply impractical to consider all the interactions of a specific drug with all the other drugs on the market. You can check the more obvious interactions, but not much more.   To discover these, you ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility. A data set where all the drugs each patient is taken can be assessed and their interactions determined is potentially a life saver, and shows every sign of being a major health benefit.

But all that level of analysis, detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir.

I do not like putting that level of trust in the hands of companies who could easily exploit it.   Promises the data will never be abused, like those on the NHS Digital website would be fine, if there were no criminals anywhere in the world and everyone could be relied on to stay within the law.

So it comes down to how we trade benefit and risk.   As I say, I have decided the risk is too great, but I am not certain of my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 09:55 AM

Sorry Dick but anyone who puts their heads above the parapet for a living is going to get sniped at. That includes all politicians and anyone in public life. Anyone posting on here is fair game too but there are rules which the moideration team apply pretty evenly. Those who did not recognise the descriptions of Farage, Gove and Johnson (not farage gove johnson BTW) have little business enering this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:09 AM

Is there anything to be read into the recent marriage of Boris Johnson? (And the man apparently doesn't own a comb?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM

I believe there is, Maggie, but it seems to be a religious rather than political controversy. Certainly not exclusive to The UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

There seems to be a query about the constitutional position of whether a Catholic is permitted to be Prime Minister, responsible for appointing Anglican bishops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

https://leftfootforward.org/2021/06/pms-catholic-wedding-ceremony-triggers-constitutional-questions/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:15 PM

I think the "fuss" was because according to catholic tenets divorcees cannot marry in their churches so it was unusual that Johnson was allowed to remarry in Westminster Cathedral the Mother Church of the Roman Catholic faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:46 PM

My immediate thought..

In the immediate context of the Cummings revelations and allegations,

..it seemed just like a soldier hurriedly marrying his sweetheart,
before departing overseas to do battle and probably die in combat..

Who knows if and when the happy couple might ever see each other again...???

Though in Boris's case a more appropriate metaphor,
would be an upper class gent about to be arrested for fraud and manslaughter.
Fearful of a very long spell inside..

Whichever version, the new bride potentially faces an uncertain lonely future.
But at least she's got a wedding ring and the man's name to keep her respectable while she's waiting...


Stories straight from the archives of old classic melodramatic black and white movies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:55 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.

Let's not discuss this as a 'UK' topic. It is related solely to 'NHS England'
I don't expect US members to fully understand the nuances, but UK members should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:59 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him..

It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.

The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM

I know, Nigel, but I believe this is the only thread permitted by Mudcat. It is not ideal but it may be the closest we are allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 03:31 PM

”The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party”

Except insofar as, in the case of Corbyn, it was the Right’s bare-faced lies, trumpeted ad nauseam by their Right-Wing press propaganda-machine, about him - ‘Friend of Terrorists’, ‘Hates this country’, ‘Communist’, ‘Anti-Semite’, yadda yadda - which, at least in part, brought about the mass desertion by ‘Red Wall’ Labour voters at the 2019 GE, which caused the worst defeat for Labour in living memory, which in turn resulted in Corbyn’s demise as leader of the Party.

Not the only cause, but certainly not an insignificant element in events leading to Corbyn’s departure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 06:57 PM

What you describe was the role of the right-wing tabloids (which is almost all of them), and, as you say, not the only cause of his demise. The other major factor was the role of his right-wing enemy within, the Ruth Smeeths, the John Manns, the Margaret Hodges, to name but a few, who would do and say anything, including throwing an election, to get rid of him and install one of their own. And look where that's got us. Starmer. We'd have been ten times better off leaving Jeremy in place. At least he would have got his teeth into Johnson. Well, unless you've got a better bloody idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:16 PM

Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

That’s all. Nothing more.

I have no intention of getting involved in another discussion with you regarding the current situation within the LP - your intransigence renders such discussions fruitless and pointless. And I deplore the hypocrisy of those who, understandably, protest the undermining and back-stabbing of JC, but who are themselves busy now undermining and back-stabbing the current Leader.

You know my views - that the Party should always be put before Personality, and that LP members and MPs should be focussing on fighting the worst, most damaging, most divisive Tory government in our lifetimes, and achieving success at the next GE, rather than fighting each other. That was my view when JC was the leader - during which leadership I supported him, here and elsewhere, despite doubting his ability to lead the Party in to government (justified, in the event) - and it is still my view.

Despite my doubts, I voted for Corbyn’s version of Labour at the 2019 GE and, despite my doubts, I will vote for Starmer’s version of Labour (assuming he’s still the Leader, not necessarily a given) at the next GE. The people the Labour Party was formed to fight for - the weakest and most down-trodden in our society - and whom far too many Members seem to have forgotten about while they fight their seedy internal ideological battles, deserve nothing less.

That’s it, I’m done here. And, this time, I mean it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 02:03 AM

I think Labour's biggest problem is northern hussies who won't keep their mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:36 AM

Backwoodsman is in effect saying that he supports a party regardless of their policies.its the rhinoceros syndrome

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM

He is saying the exact opposite, Dick. He says that a party should be supported for its policies, not the character of its leader. I tend to disagree as the leader has a great role in steering those policies but if I am going to argue with him I will at least try to argue the correct points!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM

You’re absolutely correct, Dave, and I believe that any Labour government, no matter who leads it, is preferable to this bunch of Tories who are busy mis-governing the country for their own benefit right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 06:16 AM

The backstabbing, etc., of Corbyn was predicated on a pack of lies about him. Criticism of Starmer (call it backstabbing if you must) is far more to do with his lack of charisma and inability to oppose the policies of the Tories. He's behind the curve at every juncture. The Tories have done so many disastrously wrong things, and killed tens of thousands of people thereby, in the last fifteen months, yet you'd still hardly think that we have an opposition at all. It isn't backstabbing to express frustration at this. A good, alert, aggressive Labour leader would have made mincemeat of Johnson months ago. I seriously want Starmer to do well, and wanting to give him a good kick up the 'arris, and saying it out loud, is not undermining him in my view. Shutting up about it and thereby permitting a cosy, complacent bunch of establishment New Labour-manqué middle-of-the-roaders to rule the roost is no way forward and will simply give Johnson a free pass next time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 12:00 PM

Backwoodsman:
Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

Please don't deliberately misquote me just in order to continue your rant. I did not say "the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party"
What I said was: It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.
The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.

Through the tabloids the right may have some influence, but no control, of the Labour Party's election process. The Labour Party elected Corbyn as leader, the Labour Party replaced him as leader.
The Labour Party is so riven by internal factions that I doubt there is much agreement about which was the better idea, election or replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

Nigel - thanks for putting us straight on everything again..

I don't know what us confused simple minded lefties would do
without your absolutely authorative astute political truths and guidance...

I wish I had a friend like you to accompany me to elections
to stop me from habitually being silly voting for Labour.

You make it so obvious I should vote conservative.
But it just doesn't sink in.
Then I get all discombobulated inthe heat of the moment,
and vote labour again.. doh...!!!!!

You're doing a magnificent noble job, but here's no helping us, is there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM

DMcG, I am intrigued by your post.

"the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation". Well yes (if we discount, for example, adjuvant and neoadjuvant trials). The purpose of a trial is to discover if a drug is (1) safe and (2) more effective than anything else currently on the market for that particular condition.

"You ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility". I don't think so. I think you are saying that "incompatibilities" - side effects? - are "ultimately" discovered at the micro - or individual - level? My experience is that adverse events are examined at a macro - or large dataset (not necessarily so-called big data) level, where the confidence intervals and statistical powers can be calculated and hypotheses tested (not by physicians, but by statisticians and/or epidemiologists - most physicians of my acquaintance delight in saying how frightened they are of statistics). These data are collected from anonymised GP records, hospital data or (in the case of, e.g., the US) medical insurance information. As a freelancer, every contract I have signed with a pharma client in the past twenty years has included an agreement to report - immediately - any adverse event occurring to someone taking one of their drugs (be it someone at a party telling me about their uncle, or even hearing an item on a radio programme) - information that is added to these data above. Also, I'm not sure that, even if you sign yourself out of GPDR, data concerning you that has been anonymised will be excluded from datasets created for the purpose of pharmacovigilance. If these data cannot be linked to you then they might not be considered personal data.

"Detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir". Drugs are mostly developed in the commercial sector, so unsurprisingly their long-term effects are also calculated almost entirely in the commercial sector, although this can be at the behest of the regulatory authorities as statutory requirements. This may not be the best way, but it's how things work at the moment. Universities and hospitals also do this kind of research, sometimes in partnership with pharma companies. There are plenty of statistical methods to detect interactions, relationships, correlations, clusters, etc., so I'm not sure why you mention Palantir. I'd never heard of it, but a quick search on t'inter tells me that it's a proprietary bit of software, and I can't see anything in their website blurb that I've not seen elsewhere - significantly, it says that it is being used by 'a' (i.e., one) top pharma company. I would put money on this meaning that their sales team have managed to get under the guard of one company and has given them a trial licence, possibly free of charge with a lot of analytical support, to try and get a toe-hold into an industry that already has plenty of tools for this purpose.

I'm not saying that you're wrong: I would be sincerely (and professionally) in your debt if you would bung down something that confirms what you say and corrects my misapprehensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 01:39 PM

no.
he is not, he is saying that he votes labour despite the differing policies of corbyn and starmer, he votes labour regardlessof differing policies he voted labour despite his reservations about corbyn, he votes labour regardless of starmers leadership
he probably supported blair whose policies were apart from northern ireland...conservative policies, the man[blair.]who supported the bombing of iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 01:46 PM

He has already confirmed that my analysis was correct, Dick. Try a bit of comprehension instead of reading what you want to hear into the posts of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:03 PM

Dave, you are correct in your analysis. I support the policies of the Labour Party, irrespective of who is the leader, on the basis that (as I said earlier) ANY Labour government is preferable to a Conservative one.

Thank you for your support, it’s much appreciated, but I recommend you to do as I’m doing - ignore the troll, he is once again playing his childish playground game of following me around and trying to provoke a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:10 PM

I've been noticing for some time now that in the States the rightists are going after Vice President Kamala Harris at every opportunity. They are attempting the same character assassination that they practised on Hilary Clinton. Is this going on in the U.K. on one or both locations of the political spectrum?
Has your politics become effectively a two-party system?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM

to quote back woodsman, bugger off

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 04:09 PM

I had never seen such a character assassination as the one done on Jeremy Cornyn and hope to never see another. It was politics at its ugliest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 06:05 PM

Nothing to disagree with there, Dave. And I’ll bet my pension the Tories will start it up again leading up to the next GE - wonder who their next victim will be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 06:39 PM

I sent Vincent Jones a PM because I was too busy to reply earlier, so I am repeating some of that here.

To some extent at least, I think any problem is down to phrasing myself badly. That is, I am afraid, not that rare. I should also say I am not talking from any expertise in the drug or medical industry (though I have some in statistics.)

When I said "You ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility" it was intended to be more or less equivalent to "every contract I have signed with a pharma client in the past twenty years has included an agreement to report - immediately - any adverse event occurring to someone taking one of their drugs": it is that base collection of data that drives the whole process.   Once you have that base data, it is indeed necessary to collect it into larger datasets and hit it with a lot of statistical analyses, confidence measures, multi-variant hypotheses testing and weird and wonderful mathematics to try to extract the most meaningful data, which will sometimes result in statements of the form "patients taking A and B might get side effect S (including how often, how severe and so on). That triggers a process that may ultimately end up in such things as warnings on the leaflets accompanying drugs A and B.

That the NHS England data is an extremely useful data set to analyse the interactions of drugs (especially those with no immediately obvious links) is certain. In particular, it can give us information, using my A and B example, to determine how many people do not have side effects (naturally, people do not report not having a side effect unless explicitly asked.) It can also determine that people who took A and B reported having S without realising it was a side effect at all. Or might even end up revealing the issue is not A and B at all, but A and something else, but the patient assumed it was B because they had recently changed medication.

So I do not under-value the potential benefits of the NHS data at all. Where my concerns arise is with who has got access to such a valuable commodity. The NHS England web site is definite that the data will not be made available to insurance companies, for example. But in truth all they can really say is there is no intention of doing so. In a few years, with another government, and new priorities who can really say? Added to that, we have to recognise everyone is fallible and not everyone is honest. There have been plenty of examples over the years of civil servants leaving secret documents/laptops on trains and such like. Mistakes will happen, because that is human nature. I pick on insurance companies because they would have an obvious interest, but there are many others.

I make the assumption that company C1 has an near-perfect understanding of its own products, but a much more limited knowledge of those of company C2, and vice versa. If there is a company that is especially adept at analysing the data - A1 - then if C1 can form an exclusive relationship with A1 it could significantly alter the market to disadvantage C2. This is why, in my mind, A1 should not be a commercial body, and if it must be it should certainly not be in a monopolistic position.

Now, there is always a level of trust in these systems. If I choose to opt out, I assume that sets a flag on my data. With human fallibility some coder will at some time accidentally fail to check the flag when they extract data for processing. There is nothing I can do about that. All I can do is choose where to draw the boundaries of where I have to take things on trust and I have to do so recognising that if enough people choose not to share their data, it reduces the potential benefits of the data.

It is, as I said, not an especially easy decision to decide whether to opt out or not. Other people's thoughts are welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 02:10 AM

I can't help wondering whether opting out will label me as unco-operative, and result in my being regarded as less important if there is limited availability of a treatment I need in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 03:04 AM

One thing I mentioned before that I did not cover on my second attempt is that while the system of testing is focused on side effects of a drug (and closely related ones), when it gets out of the lab and into the real world the number of possible interacting drugs rapidly increases. It is not rare for people to be taking, for example, a drug for depression, one for a heart problem, a blood thinner, something for osteoarthritis and the occasional aspirin or paracetamol. Another person might be taking statins, something for low or high blood pressure and some herbal compound which was not prescribed but has an active components. People mainly take combinations of drugs, not a single drug.

With the best testing in the world, and every good intention, it is simply not feasible to address all possible combinations of all possible drugs. The pharma companies will certainly test the more obvious possible sources of issues, but it is not practical to cover everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 06:52 AM

But DMcG, it doesn't work like that, mate. Don't want to give clients' secrets away, or turn this into a statistics symposium, but I'd say that a drug company that starts with the wonderful intention of considering every possible drug combination and tests for adverse events for each and every one, using the best testing in the world, has gone arse over tit. No, you rake together all the data you can grab on how the drug's used in the real world and look for adverse events. Then, for each such event, look for predictors, including drug combos. All standard practice as taught to baby epidemiologists once they're allowed solid food.

Your original concern (if I'm right) is whether your refusal to allow your personal data to be used will affect how long term effects are found. I don't think so. My understanding is that all such events, and the circumstances in which they occur, are reported (anonymised) to the pharma company by the general practice or hospital as a matter of course, and as a legal requirement - the only way an individual can stop the data being passed on is by avoiding all health care professionals.

Now I just need to work out how to get to the DMs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 07:02 AM

New techniques because of the invention of CRISPR has changed the old pharma status quo. Thats how rna vaccines took only one year to get into arms..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 07:05 AM

No, you rake together all the data you can grab on how the drug's used in the real world and look for adverse events

Yes, but I was mainly thinking about the trials before it goes into general use when I was talking about testing for interactions with other drugs. At that stage, you are primarily concentrating on a (relatively) small set of other drugs where you suspect possible interactions surely? Once it goes into wider use, yes, you are gathering what real world data you can. Which is exactly why the NHS England data is so valuable.

Thank you for your comments so far. It is always useful to hear from someone with more experience of a subject than I have!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 07:09 AM

And by opting out I was referring to the NHS Digital 'opt-out' of data sharing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 10:00 AM

Big corporations rely on the fact that opting out is a pain in the arse for most ordinary citizens,
already too busy dealing with problems..

So right now I've got to find time and motivation to opt-out of this this
New medical scheme..

Amazon Prime's new Echo neighborhood broadband sharing scheme..

.. and any other opt-outs I've already forgotten about..

Chances are like most folk I'll just just put off thinking about this until it's too late...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 11:28 AM

Vincent Jones
To get to your DMs just scroll to the top of this page and (below "The Mudcat Cafe") click on "personal page"

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 08:18 AM

This has been really informative to me.

You put that NHS Englad data (from which you have chosen to opt-out) "is an extremely useful data set to analyse the interactions of drugs (especially those with no immediately obvious links) is certain."

This has led me to look at the NHS England data (something I should have done a long time ago), but I can't find any aspect of it that will enable such analysis. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Where did you get this information, DMcG? I've looked over the NHS England lists of data and it looks perfect for resourcing but extremely light on drug analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 09:33 AM

I’m rather more concerned that our data is to be farmed as part of a ‘Due Diligence’ exercise being carried out prior to the sale of some, perhaps most, maybe even all, of the NHS to US private health-care companies.

We’ve opted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 09:39 AM

And of course, I meant ‘harvested’, not ‘farmed’. It’s all being kept dark and hush-hush by this government of ours that would sell its kids for tuppence, and it’s reminiscent of the kind of manœvres that, as a Management and Financial Accountant, I was involved in with regard to company disposals and acquisitions during my working life.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 10:17 AM

That puts some warm glow in my sense of moral superiority...

Walking away from a career in accountancy when I was 18 was a splendid act of defiant idealistic bravado..

It was also one of the most stupid life decisions I ever made,
seeing as I've been so skint ever since...

It was only years afterwards that I realised so many of my anti-capitalist hippie and punk counterculture influencers,
were public school educated and supported by very comfortably well off families..

Garrett...!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 10:22 AM

Garrett.. who the f*** is Garrett.. !!!???

I typed "Grrrrrr"..

Or at least I thought I did..

Bloody tiny mobile phone Type pads and screens...

Grrrrrrrrrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 01:18 PM

Roll out of NHS England data sharing postponed until September

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 01:37 PM

Also turns out the impending Amazon neighbourhood broadband sharing opt out deadline is USA only...

.. not UK.. for now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 06:13 PM

I hadn't answered Vincent's question about what data is going to be available and whether is geared for.resources rather than analysis of specific medicines. I gather that the current data is more resources oriented (except for very specific research work) but the replacement system.will be much broader. &ere is an extract from the NHS information on the system, talking about how it is based round records of individuals:
We take our responsibility to safeguard patient data extremely seriously. Data shared by NHS Digital is subject to strict rules around privacy, security and confidentiality and the new service has been designed to the highest standards. 

We do not collect patients’ names or exactly where they live. Any other data that could directly identify someone, for example their NHS number, full postcode and date of birth, is pseudonymised before it leaves their GP practice. This means that this data is replaced with unique codes so patients cannot be directly identified in the data which is shared with us. The data is also securely encrypted.

We would only ever re-identify the data if there was a lawful reason to do so and it would need to be compliant with data protection law. For example, a patient may have agreed to take part in a research project or clinical trial and has already provided consent to their data being shared with the researchers for this purpose. 

So while it will need suitable approvals, it always possible to 're-identify' the data - ie trace it back to an individual. That means we are not just talking about aggregated data - "there were 27 cases of broken shoulders this month" - but are listing all 27 cases, with anonomised ids. The link I gave says almost the entire medical history will be accessible, including all the individual medicines, treatments, etc. The NHS Digital site says it collects

data about diagnoses, symptoms, observations, test results, medications, allergies, immunisations, referrals, recalls and appointments, including information about physical, mental and sexual health

data on sex, ethnicity and sexual orientation

data about staff who have treated patients
It is not entirely clear to me that all these are related to the same anonymised id, though that seems most likely to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 03:12 AM

the uk government should be building new schools and new hospitals that are designed to cope with viruses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 05:41 AM

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries, why are the leeches at the passport office still charging £75.50 for a renewal when it is only worth £2.70?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 06:48 AM

Forget travel..
a British passport is valid photo ID when dealing with local petty bureaucrats, while confined in our own nation..

That's the only reason I renewed mine a few years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 06:58 AM

Though it's bloody expensive,
and applying for one is a bureaucratic pain in the arse in itself..

How much would any future proposed UK National Identity card likely be...???

Mind you, the post office passport photo machine
has made me look very white..

The colour balance must have been set by a brexiteer engineer...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 07:20 AM

It is expensive in some ways, but very similar to the price I paid for my Irish passport. Holding both is more symbolic than practical, as my wife only holds a British passport, and sitting in the cafe while she is stuck in a queue is not worth the potential earache.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 08:34 AM

They are not fit for purpose. They do not work at e-gates in other European countries. If my partner and I decide to travel together to another European country when Covid restrictions are behind us we would need to stand in different passports queues and be subject to different passport regulations rather than being free to travel as a couple, that makes us officially sub-human.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 21 - 09:08 AM

President Biden, who is more teetering than your Queen, today visits Boris Johnson, your latter day Winston Churchhill, :roll eyes:
Perhaps you will believe there is a complete US return to Democracy and NATO but not even Japan is buying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 02:50 AM

Had to laugh at the phrasing of this!

"Boris Johnson’s guests are set to enjoy buttered rum, an indoor rainforest and a beach barbecue with local sea shanties"

Local sea shanties, eh? That's an interesting concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 05:41 AM

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries, why are the leeches at the passport office still charging £75.50 for a renewal when it is only worth £2.70?
not quite true ireland is an exception, but otherwise i take your point

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 03:21 AM

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries

Just to head off Nigel, that is not what the passport does or did. As far as the countries of Europe are concerned, the UK passport has not changed significantly since before the EU existed, and for countries outside the EU it is entirely unchanged.

You can travel as freely to the countries now (leaving the covid-19 stuff aside) as you could while we were in the EU, apart from joining a different queue at the border, and you many need something like the US ESTA eventually.

"Freedom of movement" has always been, in my view, a poor choice of words. It is more like "freedom of employment" really. That has been lost, but the ability to visit has not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 03:59 AM

the leechesat the pass port office are in the business of exploting the stuation, just like the pharma companies, politics seems to be about quick fix

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:23 AM

DMcG - freedom of movement also means freedom to enter into a relationship with someone from another country that has the same freedoms. Now if you want to enter into a relationship and live together, it has to be with someone is suitable in the eyes of the government, while if you want a relationship with a British dug dealer or child abuses - no problem as far as priti vacant is concerned.

There have already been cases where people from EU countries have been denied entry because they 'might' illegally work during the 90 days that they are entitled to visit for, and before the A8 acquisition, it was fairly routine for young people to immediately be sent back home IN CASE they overstay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:33 AM

also freedom to stay for more than 90 days in any 180 period has been lost. In my eyes, the value of my passport has gone down and the price should reflect this, and not the cost of processing applications.
what is the point of having a biometric passport if they do not work on e-passport gates?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:38 AM

I agree, SPB-Cooperator. it is not really possible to completely summarise FoM in a few words - it always includes either too much or too little. I just wanted to be clear that it is not really about the right to enter a country on holiday, for example. FoM is more significant than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 07:33 AM

1399...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 08:29 AM

1400! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 08:38 AM

1399 - Henry IV crowned King of England.
1400 - Sack of Aleppo

A lot of other things happened in those years, just picked 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 09:06 AM

spb, they are not going to give you a reduction on your pass port so forget about it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 09:23 AM

I'll settle for Freedom of Movement any day of the week (for myself to EU and my partner to UK).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 10:41 AM

Politicians represent those who pay them the most.Steve it is time to stop believing in the system

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 02:22 PM

That's the irony. Political decisions have consequences, and taking ending FoM as an example, the government should at least have the decency to admit that they want the consequences to happen instead of trying to brush collateral damage under the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:04 PM

Steve who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 03:50 AM

spb his name is also steve . governments do not believe in decency they are their to do the bidding of the highest payers that is who they represent, the multi nationals, the very rich

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 05:05 AM

Ah, I didn't know that. You had me scratching my head there and trawling the thread to find out what I might have said...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 04:45 PM

In keeping with the current trend of teachers calling themselves academics at Oxbridge Universities behaving like wokie imbeciles in the name of anti racism, I would suggest USAian universities follow suit by taking down the stars & stripes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:25 AM

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."

Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 11:25 AM

The same MUST apply to marriages between UK nationals. I can't say what I want to say as I would have to use language that is extremely offensive to women. If this actually happens, this proves that everyone who works for the home office is a racist neo-nazis and should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families. Teachers should stand their children up in from of the class and explain to the class how inhumanely their parents are treating decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:45 PM

.... should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families.

Guilt by association. I am not my brother's keeper.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:57 PM

In the case of Home Office officials there is a clear case for that. They choose to apply for the jobs, obey orders and take the pay, They are the individual people enacting inhumanity on fellow human beings, and should not be allowed to hide behind anonymity under the excuse of 'only obeying orders'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:50 PM

Assuming you’re correct, they are the guilty parties, not their families. In the UK, we punish wrong-doers, not their spouses and children - that is a basic legal principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:26 PM

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."
Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.

It was always stated that one intention of Brexit was to stop giving preferential treatment to EU citizens when compared to the rest of the world. This just standardises that treatment. It just means that people coming from EU to marry in UK will be checked by the Home Office, as currently happens with citizens of America, Armenia, Australia and over 100 other countries in the same circumstances.

Details per HM Government are Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:39 PM

How dare you suggest that my Czech partner and I lose the right to choose to do so without the permission of the Home Office. Only a racist would defend levelling down rather than levelling up? If you believe in equality then did you seek Home Office permission before you got married, or are you a superior race to me???????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 06:23 PM

Quite so SPB, It is disgraceful

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 10:19 PM

GB News channel...????????????????????

.. well I sat through the hour long intro video late last night..

Hmmmmmmm.....



Supposed to be starting full service today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 12:39 AM

When I said these upcomingchanges to subject marriages to EU citizens to the checks was "fairly inevitable" I perhaps did not explain that "fairly". As Nigel correctly says, it was one of the aims to treat EU and non-EU the same, right from the start. The "fairly relates to how it was done: a quiet change of bureaucracy with little notice or public awareness and complete disregard of the fact that real people are affected. It is an example of "act without considering the impact" that I thought fairly inevitable.

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make.any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 03:45 AM

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"

"Could have been given two years"? Instead they've only had a year and a half (1 Jan 2020 to 30 June 2021). It shouldn't need a public information campaign. Anyone wishing to marry has to apply for a marriage license, at that stage they would be reminded of the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM

No, Nigel, I meant two years after the start of the public information campaign that their rights may have been affected. Sorry if that was not clear.

It is far too late to tell prospective couples when they apply for the marriage licence, because they may need to make other changes to, for example, their residency to guarantee the granting of the licence. Those alterations take time.

My biggest objection to this is that the frame of mind of the Home Office is not "this is a change coming because of Brexit, but we will do all we can to make things as easy as possible for you within that constraint". It is more "It's your problem." They appear to see it as a bureaucratic issue more akin to moving some filing cabinets from one floor to another than something that affects real individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:01 AM

"Two years after the public information campaign". So that would be this October then. The public information campaign started before Brexit in October 2019: Here
I know that since then I've seen advertising for applying for settled status on advertising hoardings, in the newspapers and on tv. Even without the advertising I would have expected those who will come under these changes to have searched for information.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:47 AM

Sigh.

The public information that people's marriage rights are changing if they want to marry someone from the EU. That is not the same thing as settled status for someone who is from the EU.

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 08:50 AM

it is not so much the beaurocracy (for that read paying pointless fees to keep a leech in employment to carry out a pointless job), it is the hostile environment that assumes that somoni is going to break immigration law unless they can prove otherwise - ie guilty of intent to carry out a crime until proven innocent.

We already see cases on a daily basis where people who have arrived as part of the Windrush generation facing deportation 50-60 years later due to the the home office failing to keep proper records. We read cases of their children who came over as infants who have only known life in UK, were educated hear and worked to provide vital services and pay decades of taxes being threatened with being removed to another country with which they have no living family ties or emotional connection, and no guarantee of a secure life when they have been deported. We read cases of people from Europe already being turned away because they might not return within 90 days.

And you are asking me to believe this is a FAIR system, and people who intend to get married will be treated fairly? Do you really believe that people who are pursuing their dream of a long and happy relationship together will have no lasting damage when a mindless official whose own lives are pathetic effectively tells the couple that they are not entitled to get married?

Well this may be fine for racist garbage who see this as a means of having less foreigners' lowering their property values, but those of us have to bear the consequences of your xenophobia.

p.s. I have seen a lot of government information abut preparing for leaving the EU. Ridiculous posts dictating to businesses who they can and can't employ, and processes that line the pockets of more leeches for people who want to employ someone from the EU. For example, if I wanted to employ my partner as my pa for a few hour a week I would have to pay a leech to register as an employer, I would have to pay something like £180/hour for a 5-6-7 hour/week job, and it would be a face piece of **** who would make a decision of whether or not I would be allowed to employ her.

This all, collectively evidences that in the view of the government, those who fall in love with someone from outside the UK is a lower species of human being compared with someone who falls in love with a Broth person. Anyone who dares to suggest that this is not Naziism should read Miep Gies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 09:48 AM

Anti immigration enforcement is most probably based on bitter jealous fear
that foreigners can be more attractive and desirable,
than most pasty blotchy potato faced indigenous British xenophobes...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM

Much as though bureaucracy is an inconvenience to all and everybody , SBS,it is essential for the functioning of any modern economy. Don’t forget that Brexit was sold to the British public by newspapers like the Express raging against EU bureaucracy .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.

I acknowledge SPB's post, but chose not to comment on his personal situation even if I could understand his comments. It appears that he, in common with remainers, assumes that Brexit is just a racist policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:50 AM

I am sorry to hear of the problems that SPB and others are now facing due to the change in circumstances.

Do you know how the regulations would affect you if you were to marry and live in your partner's homeland?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 10:50 AM

Yorkshire Bylines hitting the nail on the head as usual :-)

Johnson’s alternative address to the nation

Good evening. Err, um, www, err, sausages, err, um, where was I, err, www, yes, no, Great Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM

Brilliant! All the more so because it’s totally believable…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:04 PM

But perhaps not believable that the PM would say it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:34 PM

"Led by Donkeys" video about the UK reaction to the India variant

It is made more effective, I think, by being almost a strictly factual account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:08 PM

Part of me (wrongly) holds the view that as this is a total f-up my Johnson, the delta variant should be allowed to run rampant (already nudging 200,000 - 250,000 new cases per month compared with 10,000 this time last year) through the c0mmnity rather than inconvenience us. It is Johnson's problem so Johnson should sort it out while we get on with our lives - I know pandemics don't work that way. IT would also mean that any rise in hospitalisations and excess deaths is Johnson problem alone. Even though these numbers are currently low, it can take two weeks to a mpnth for these figures to follow the new infections curve.

Also,as Johnson knew about the risk back in the end of May, it can be safely assumed that cabinet office, senior NHS employees and Health Department officers also knew about this, and should be thrown in prison for failing to leak this to the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 03:32 AM

An excellent example of weasel words here, talking about the Australian deal.
"It contained “the strongest possible provisions for animal welfare”, the prime minister argued, telling journalists: “We had to negotiate very hard.”
So you are meant to read that as the provisions are strong. But it does not say that at all. It simply says they were the best we could get given the desperation to get a deal. An absolutely terrible set of provisions could still be the 'strongest possible'.
In short, you are supposed to focus on the word 'strongest', whereas you should really be focusing on 'possible'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 08:43 PM

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/outsourcing-morality-dido-harding-wants-the-top-job-at-the-nhs/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:13 AM

That really is scary, PFR :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:19 AM

A revolution is needed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:30 AM

Just a decent government, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM

that is difficult to achieve, with gerry mandering and first past the post and mps who represent corporations as well as their constituents. mps are elected to represent the constituents that gave them a majority not represent other outside interests

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:11 PM

Voting in a Tory MP,
is like trusting Winnie-the-Pooh with the keys to a honey cupboard...


.. (that's a family friendly version metaphor)..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:00 AM

MPs should represent the best interests of the country, Dick. Just pandering to what their constituents say is populism and that has landed us in the shit we are in today. I do agree about FPTP although I am not sure if PR is the best alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:50 AM

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them, that is their constituents is it not? it is not the intersts of multinationals who pay them a retainer who have effectively bought the MP.
NOT THE BEST INTERST OF THE COUNTRY AND THE BEST INTERST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:03 AM

.. but the best interests of people who vote tory,
is far from compatable with the best interests of the country..

.. that's the problem...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:50 AM

Another slide down the slippery slope towards fascism.

If governments cannot be scrutinised and held to account for wrong doing, it is another nail in the coffin for democracy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/electoral-commission-boris-johnson-flat-b1868407.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_med

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:20 AM

The link to the Independent says:
Boris Johnson is to strip the Electoral Commission of the power to prosecute law-breaking, just weeks after it launched an investigation into his controversial flat refurbishment.

The watchdog has been threatened with curbs ever since it embarrassed senior Tory figures by fining Vote Leave for busting spending limits for the Brexit referendum.

I do wonder why "The Electoral Commission", a body responsible for "integrity and transparency of party election finance" was conducting an inquiry into the payment for the PM's flat.
Possibly claims that they are a party political body, and acting beyond their remit, are correct.
Their action against "Vote Leave" following the referendum was judged by the High Court to have been because Vote Leave acted on guidance given to them by The Electoral Commission themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice. it is definitely not mine unless the entire population has the right to break electoral law without fear of prosecution.

I would be equally disgusted if this was proposed by Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, Buckethead or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

It is an essential tenet of democracy that those who breach electoral law must be held to account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice.

No, that is not a choice I am making. But as I pointed out, the Electoral Commission have not shown themselves suitable to hold such powers.

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions

It has been, yes. Which is no doubt part of the reason the Conservative election Manifesto for 2019 said

We will ensure that
judicial review is available to protect
the rights of the individuals against an
overbearing state, while ensuring that
it is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays. In our first year we will set
up a Constitution, Democracy &
Rights Commission that will examine
these issues in depth, and come
up with proposals to restore trust
in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates.


Which of course immediately raises the question who gets to decide if an action like Gina's is fair or abusing the courts] to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM

DMcG:
Presumably your quote has answered your own question:
In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come up with proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates

Of course it appears that that commission has yet to be set up, but Covid has intervened.
That commission would appear to supersede the Electoral Commission, and the prior removal of the Electoral Commission may be required to allow the Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission to be brought into place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM

Not really. The delay in setting up the commission is almost certainly covid related, so does not need much more commentary.

When Gina brought her case, there is not the slightest doubt that the Government would have stopped the proceedings if they could. The paragraph is in the manifesto, in my opinion, to ensure that if any similar situation arose, they could do so. I can see no other reasonable explanation why it is present.

I feel little reassurance in the promise of a Commission where the Government selects who is a member and whose report is quite possibly only advisory, leading to some Bill that gives Parliament or a Government appointed body the power to stop cases that are felt to be "conducting politics by other means".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 03:10 AM

Conservative majority overturned by a party that is pro european

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:41 AM

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them

Not really, Dick. My best interests would be to have a state pension of £50,000 per annum, free beer and a ban on idiots posting on the internet. It is not the countries best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 06:27 AM

Oh I don't know Dave, I'd be quite happy for you to have that pension and the free beer and the last bit would be brilliant!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:10 AM

well the "country" is the electorate [including [those who choose not to vote , they have decided they do not care who represents them]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM

If there is no candidate standing in my constituency that I would wish to vote for, that does not mean that I have decided that I don't care who represents me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM

Then you need to vote for the candidate who is most likely to defeat the candidate youe want least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM

What a depressing solution to a depressing problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM

it is partly a fault of first past the post, the two social dmocratic parties, liberal[pale pale pink] and labour[ pale pink] have their vote split, divide and rule

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM

well the "country" is the electorate

It isn't just the electorate though. It is the companies that employ and pay people. It is the transport infrastructure. It is those who maintain national parks and other treasures. All those and many more have to have their best interests protected too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM

I prefer preferential vote systems as it maintains constituencies voting for their representative,,, and also addresses progressive votes being split so that constituents can reject an incumbent without having to vote tactically and a candidate winning a seat in spite of two thirds of voters being against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

Letter to Starmer from a member of the working class.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM

The whole debate on voting systems is complex, and it is worth getting your head round Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. However, it is also important to understand this theorem does not say FPTP is better.

Over-simplifying, the theorem says all voting systems have flaws. But, recognising where and how and how severely they go wrong, you can choose a system ;with open eyes' to its limitations.

I head a great lecture by John Curtice a month or two back explaining how FPTP has failed to achieve what its supporters claim with any reliability for decades now. Hid did not recommend any specific voting system, but he did say many of the claimed benefits of FPTP are spurious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM

i agree that there are advsntages and disadvantages to the different PR systems , but it is indisputable that with two social democratic opposition parties the liberals and the present labour party ,the opposition is split . tactical voting in chesham defeated the conservatives.
i have never voted liberal in my life but they are different from the conservatives in that they are pro european, and they are the party that consistently suffers with first past the post election system

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm..

John Bercow.. next Labour leader and prime minister...???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM

Btw..

I've suggested it before,
and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a two party system might be more effective..

However you name it, or label each opposing party,
voters would need to be honest with themselves and pick a side.

Individuals stubbornly posturing as centrists,
would need to do some serious heart searching thinking;
and decide which side they actually lean towards by the narrowest margin...

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, obviously..

(Single issue obsessed militant activists would still be a distracting divisive pain in the arse..)

But it might be better than our present charade of democracy...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

The main problem with a two party system is they can put all sorts of stuff in their manifestos and claim that is what people demanded. We had a nice example just recently in this threat when Gina Millar was given as an example of how individuals could hold governments into account, while apparently unaware the manifesto for the winning party in 2019 included a commitment to 'rebalance' rights to make it possible to stop any such 'politics by other means'. (Admittedly, they did add a whole pile of fluff and chaff disguising how to achieve that, but they did make that a clear objective.)

Sometimes, I think I am the only one that reads manifestos ...

Anyway, having a two party system would amplify that: how do you say that you do not want the objectionable stuff in the manifesto? Especially if the other side had different but equally objectionable stuff?

My personal preference is for a large number of parties, and I would have liked to see a pro-Brexit Tory and a pro-EU Tory on the ballots in each constituency (ditto for Labour) so that we elected a pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit House without needing a referendum at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

Opps! Thread, not threat!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM

Jonathan Freedland in yesterdays Guardian

"Plot it on a graph and the change stares right back at you. Fifty years ago, parties of the left fared best among those with the least education and the lowest income, while the right flourished among those with the most of both. These days, the right still does well among the affluent, but on education the two camps have swapped places: these days, and far too crudely put, if you’re a graduate you vote left; if you’re not, you don’t."

And
Thursday’s byelection result will prompt a lot of excited talk of what educated, progressive voters might do if they join together. But it will never be enough. The harder truth is that those who want change will have to speak to voters about the things they, the voters, care about, and in a way that makes sense to them. It will require discipline and coherence, even from those who think they’re doing noble work “widening the debate” or “raising awareness”, when in fact they’re just making progressives look weird. There is no short cut – via Chesham and Amersham or anywhere else."


Jonathan Freedland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM

How is Brexit going?

Polls are always suspect, and YouGov more than most, but even so it is interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM

Yes, they clearly use the headlines which will reflect their own views. "Just 25% of the British public think Brexit is going well".
Although that is clearly less than the alternate headline "Just 38% think Brexit is going badly".

By ignoring all those who say either "not going well nor badly" or "Don't know" any other option is never going to manage to make a big headway.

It's surprising the correlation between Conservative/Leave figures and Labour/Remain figures on the basis that this wasn't ever supposed to be a party political decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

its called propoganda or sometimes news

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

The commentary around the table of results (which is a bit buried in the middle) is propaganda, I would say. So I tend to focus on the table and largely ignore the surrounding text.

One of the reasons I said YouGov is unreliable is that a major bias in any survey is determining who you ask. Most YouGov surveys are based on filling in online questionnaires, so you suffer from all the 'self-selection' problems.

As we are coming up to the five year anniversary of the vote, ask "how's it going?" is quite a reasonable thing to ask.

I agree with Nigel that it is interesting that there is a string difference in the opinion of Conservative and Labour Leave voters. There are probably dozens of factors in play. One is that with the Conservatives in power, it is much harder for Conservative voters to say "this is going badly" whereas there is quite an incentive for Labour voters to say 'this is not the Brexit I voted for.'

A second one is that it is very likely that Labour Leave voters and Conservative Leave voters agreed that the UK should leave the EU, but they genuinely had different ideas about what should happened next. I suspect, but do not know of course, that many of the Labour Leaves felt it was the best way of protecting UK jobs (i.e. essentially protectionist), whereas many Conservatives were much more 'free market' inclined, and so opposed to protectionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

string => striking

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM

I tend to look much more at the drivers for leave - both from the tory and labour point of view. In the case of Labour, those who were driving it saw it as a step towards their revolutionary socialist ideals, while the conservative side was much more about realising capitalism from social responsibility. Again this is about the drivers, not the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM

The other problem with the poll is that it does not separate dogma from informed opinion. For the survey to have any real value the answer needs to be qualified and the way to pick up the people in the middle would be a further question: -   Please give your reasons why you believe Brexit is NOT going well or badly. An example might be that UK has control of its fishing waters (well) versus UK has lost most of its market for selling fishing catches (badly).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM

NYC is trying out Rank Based voting in the primary for the Mayor election. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM

Just why is that posted on a Brexit & other UK politics thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM

Try it you might like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM

Donny - quick, a UFO has landed in the other thread.
The visitors were looking for you,
with an important message only you can comprehend.
They were starting to look a bit impatient like they've been stood up.
Quick before you miss them...!!!

Now back to British political matters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM

he is talking about pr, it is being introduced in usa?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM

Yes Dick he is. But that has no place ,even if it were relevant, on the one thread we're allowed about UK politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

The return of roaming charges?

It will be interesting to see if O2 backs down, or the other providers follow them in restoring charges.

I remember being assured in posts to earlier versions of this thread that this was another unfounded 'Project Fear'-style claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 01:43 PM

What do we think of Hat Mancock then?

(For the pedantic and those who cannot figure these things out, I am referring to the health secretary 's resignation)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:07 PM

I think Matt Hancock should have been sacked, although I can cope with his resignation. Nothing to do with the affair, I should add, but for the breach of rules (And I would like these other offences taken into account, m'lud)

I am not at all convinced Javid will be a good health minister, but the choices available were somewhat limited.

The first serious thing to judge him on is who he appoints as head of NHS England. Serial-disaster Dido would be a really bad sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:14 PM

I can't help suspecting that rather than Hancock having now 'left' his wife, she may have kicked him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:42 PM

Do we know more about the who and how of camera placement in Hancock's work environment. As in, has this been happening right along and could it be a factor in various decisions in officialdom?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:05 PM

Just as I suspected, hancock' s brains are in his pant's!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:54 PM

Johnson could not have sacked Hancock for having an extramarital affair ............. how could he sack someone for doing exactly the same as himself on numerous occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM

He may not have been sacked (for the aforementioned reasons), but I’d bet a pound to a pinch of snuff that he was ‘resigned’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:55 PM

One of the things I thought interesting is that while Hancock said those who make the rules must abide by them, there is not a thing in Johnson's reply to say he agrees. In fact, though he accepts the resignation there is nothing in his response to suggest he thought it right to resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:57 PM

Of course he was!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM

Why does BBC persist in calling it "Kissing",
when it was a full on teenage disco snog and arse grope.. at their age...???

Tory party now deep in debate on best ways to monetise the full sex tape...£££

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 06:49 PM

And now Dom Cummings is claiming that 'twas Carrie who got the "bog-standard" Sadge appointed. Heheh...

I'll swear that I read somewhere that the camera was embedded in the room's smoke alarm...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM

why dont the whole cabinet resign

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 12:03 PM

Dick - the same reason fleas, lice, and ticks
don't voluntarily leave their warm-blooded host victims...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 03:21 PM

WWC(hurchill)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM

That was supposed to be:

WWC(hurchill)D?

but I butterfingered it (Yes, I made 'butterfinger' a verb. I went there).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM

Chart for UK cases on 29 June 2021

Javid's speeches yesterday put him firmly on the side of dates rather than data. He committed very strongly to removing as many restrictions as possible on 19th July and living with the consequences.

Such bravado could very easily cause him a huge headache. Even though the numbers are lower than before, it would be foolish to think the number of hospitalisations is independent of the number of cases, and every case occupies a hospital bed for a comparatively long time (many operations, such as my wife's knee replacement earlier this week) occupy beds for two or three days. Covid-19 hospitalisation is longer. The chart I took a snapshot of and linked to above shows the UK is not doing well controlling the delta variant, and relaxing in a few weeks if we have not got this under control looks very unwise from a data viewpoint.

He is also gambling that a new variant will not emerge that has worse statistics than delta.

SO he could very easily find himself in the nearish future - say before the end of the year - having to decide whether to eat humble and pie and actually reverse the irreversible, or to be held personally accountable for any deaths etc arising from this hypothetical variant.

In essence, he has already gambled his future that such a variant will not appear. JH, and the rest of us, may be lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM

Before I am picked up on it, when I said "every case occupies a hospital bed", I meant of course "every hospitalisation occupies a bed"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:11 AM

javid has outside interests which include private medicine.
this is a little like giving a job to a thief to guard the crown jewels

Sajid Javid is the new Secretary of State for Health and Social Care.

Alongside being an MP, last year Javid was hired as a paid senior advisor to the US bank JP Morgan.

JP Morgan is a major player in private healthcare.

The NHS isn't safe in the Conservatives' hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:38 AM

I may have said this before here, as I have certainly said it in a few places, but I will repeat myself if I have. No matter.

Talk of selling off the NHS is unwise. I do not think the Conservatives would do anything so crude. But they don't have to. All they have to do is ensure that for those who can afford it private medicine is the preferred route. There are all sorts of ways this can happen: allow the waiting lists to grow and grow. Restrict the range of operations on the NHS (eg varicose veins are no longer available on the NHS. I think they dropped around 35 such things not long ago.) Restrict the criteria for access ("BMI over 35? Sorry, no treatment until you get it down. Obesity is a health risk and we need to atop it")

All of those are happening at the moment (and were all pre-covid, by the way.)


Next, paint those who take out private healthcare as patriots, for reducing the waiting lists for the NHS. Such selfless people.

Next, think about tax relief for individuals with private healthcare. After all, if they are not using the NHS, it is fair they don't pay as much for it, isn't it?

They do not stress that reduces the NHS funds, so makes things like waiting lists worse, but it does. Which of course makes the private more appealing, and more go private, leading to whittling down the NHS further.

And yet, they could still boast that the NHS exists and is free at the point of use. So it has not been "sold."

If you look at the reports from private healthcare companies for the year before covid struck, they reported a boom in the self-pay sector. I.e. those without health insurance but paying for a private operation directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 04:19 AM

I suppose I should reveal my hand after that.

My wife has osteoarthritis. She has had both hips and both knees replaced. One operation was on the NHS, three we paid for privately, primarily because of the length of the waiting lists.

When Johnson became Prime Minister, I took out private health insurance for myself for the first time in my life, because my trust in the government is that low. Even in Thatcher's time, I did not consider private health insurance.

Naturally, the cost of private health care for my wife is totally prohibitive so she is not covered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:13 AM

About two years ago I had a large sebaceous cyst on my shoulder that was constantly prone to bursting (and coming back). I was flabbergasted to be told by my GP that he couldn't deal with it under the NHS. He gave me the number of a private clinic. I rang them. They offered me a half-hour appointment (which included "counselling") with no guarantee of success. £450.

I sorted it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM

Ear syringing is no longer available on the NHS either. Our local optitions do it for £100 or Specsavers do it for £55.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM

Opticians is the more common spelling of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:34 AM

(Make your own eyesight joke now...)

Yes, I had to have my ears syringed recently for that sort of price. While there the nurse told me of a patient whose was problem is so severe he needs to come in every six months. At around £100 a time, that is a lot of cash to find.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM

It isn't appropriate to give dietary advice to someone you do not know anything about. You may, for instance, advise someone to eat more nuts, not knowing they have an allergy. Giving advice in ignorance of all the facts is foolish. Relating what works for you is a different matter.

---

Yards and yards of posts with medical bickering have been removed. The party who complained to this mudelf about a personal insult is the one who set it off, so there isn't a lot of sympathy here. Don't Feed the Trolls and/or Don't Be a Troll. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:30 PM

Now to return to Brexit and UK politics!

The Independent is reporting:
The EU will reportedly force the UK to agree to “conditions” as both sides edge towards a truce averting a so-called “sausage war” with a temporary extension to defer a ban on shipments of chilled meat.

An eleventh-hour agreement will come just hours ahead of the expiration of the grace period on 1 July, which would have prevented shipments of the products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

===
I thought something like this would happen, but I did expect a str I never set of conditions, along the lines of demonstrable progress from the UK that it was implementing what it agreed. In these early reports, that does not seem to be the case. But we should see tomorrow, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:31 PM

Autocorrections again!

I expected a stronger set of conditions ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 09:59 PM

I ordered a powered speaker off Amazon.
Opened the box, and it's a bloody 2 pin Euro plug..

Don't they know there's a brexit going on...!!!???

Millions of patriotic born and bred British heroes
voted with a historic decisive victory over traiter to the nation remoaners,
to keep out this kind of foreign threat to our sovereignty...

Btw.. My sound advice is never eat continental food.
It will sap your British vitality, make you sterile,
and your skin go an unhealthy olive colour,
and in worse cases you'll turn transexual..

That is a fact confirmed by British facebook experts.

British 3 pin plugs and food first, and forever...

We showed the Germans once again on the hallowed battle field of Wembley.
Eleven true English men raised eating a pure healthy diet of holy Albion pies and mash
will never be defeated...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:16 AM

LOL, pfr!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM

Come off it pfr.
We all know that it was Boris what won it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

I am not interested enough to spend an hour and a half watching football, but my son has just told me that during the match Wills and Kate were shown jumping up and down with delight and waving their arms in the air.
This morning he watched a number of news broadcasts, all of which showed the royal couple clapping demurely, in a calm and dignified manner.
He believes that the images are being controlled, either by the media or by the palace itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 06:53 AM

suggests going to a PROFESIONAL , yes , but professional GPs are overworked and under pressure

So you think we would get better advice off a folk singer?

Dave the gnome used to be considerably overweight, but i believe since he took up cycling he has lost weight

No, no, no. Once again you are not in possesion of the full facts. I always cycled, hiked and swam even when I was obese. I have lost over 4 stone with WW. Still about 20lb to go but that will go this year.

did he need professional advice?

YES I MOST CERTAINLY DID, AND LOTS OF IT!

Now, can we get back to UK politics please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM

I'm clearing out my mum's house now that she's in a care home.

Bookcases are full of reader's digest and similar populist medical textbooks.
Plus thick encyclopaedias of medications..

All this confirms my suspicions such a superficial grasp of this kind of knowledge
fueled and exacerbated my sister's mental health problems..

She started as a fairly normal teenager training for st John's ambulance certificates..

But problems started to become apparent in her later teens.

She could very expertly pull the wool over the eyes of examining doctors and specialists,
by feigning the correct symptoms they needed to observe for diagnosis.

She became a very crafty hypochondriac,
suffering all kinds of rare and trendy conditions.

This provided her status and power in online self-help and therapy groups.

At worse I believe she developed Munchausen syndrome.
All her pets suffered rare and exotic illnesses needing very expensive veterinary treatment, which he could document in log books and online diaries.

Again providing her with elite expert status in online forums for vulnerable health obsessives.

I'm quite certain she also controlled and abused my mother's life with emergency call outs to ambulances,
for what my sister diagnosed as strokes while my mother was asleep.
My sister being the only witness, giving medical teams articulate descriptions of the textbook symptoms..

There's far more to this story than I divulge now..

For these reasons I am also very wary of self-appointed amateur medical specialists...

No back to British politics and taking the piss out of brexiteers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM

now back...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM

That’s a very sad story, pfr. Having had to deal, for many years, with a close relative who suffered paranoid schizophrenia, and another with very serious addiction, I feel for you and your family.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:29 AM

yes i am wary of self appointed amateur medical specialists too. which was why i said
i would advise everyone see a professional conventional doctor or a professional herbal doctor. however professionals include alternative medicine acu puncture etc.
incidentally about weight watchers quote
Weight Watchers isn't a medical organization and we can't give you medical advice. We strongly urge you to consult with your physician (or primary health-care provider) before starting any weight loss plan.    weight watchers are not professional medical specilists

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:49 AM

Dick - that's fair enough..

Like Steve, my post is of perhaps more relevance towards some of our overseas pals.

It's maybe no coincidence that the online medical and therapy self help groups my sister dedicated herself to,
seemed to be mainly American..

Which is where she finally gravitated towards..
Travelling to the USA to stay with online friends I suspect involved in kind of cult-like activity..

.. And was found dead in mysterious circumstances in a desert region motel..

My mother's savings being drained in the process...

Local coroner and law enforcement quickly decided there were no problems, and closed the case..

I certainly felt unwelcome when trying to talk to them on the phone..


..nah.. can't have been just because I'm a Brit...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:51 AM

Government resists Tory MPs’ calls to scrap ‘fearful’ daily Covid figures

They should publish the figures, of course. But since Javid got the health post I have been anticipating they will be dropped - shortly after 19 July, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 12:54 PM

Yes, publish the data.
That does not mean they should hijack a large portion of the nightly news to try to persuade the public not to go about their normal lives.
Of course, there are other items which are still given priority over showing the figures, such as football ;)
But show the whole of the figures, and put them in proportion.
The current daily death rate from Covid seems to be climbing (from 0 on 1 June to 23 on 29th, but the gradient looks pretty good since March 15th) Here

But somehow, we rarely see the long term graphs except when figures are rising steeply, and the government want to "instil more caution", such a graph is Here for weekly deaths in England and Wales and seems to show that the death rate is following annual trends (at present).
In fact a note following the graph states that:
There were 9459 deaths registered in England and Wales for the week ending June 18, 2021, fewer than the average for this week between 2015 and 2019, and a signal of the improving Coronavirus situation in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:45 PM

I agree that the number of deaths is sufficiently small that you cannot really determine a trend. As we stand a single death occurring an hour after midnight that might have occurred an hour before is enough to substantially alter the analysis.

And that is a good thing, because it emphasises how deaths are.

Hospitalizations are, unfortunately, a different story. While the figures remain low compared to earlier dates, there is a clear upward trend that looks as if it is accelerating. It needs close monitoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 08:39 AM

So, to get away from the dietary advice nonsense and its attendant trolling, and back to UK politics, here’s an interesting piece from today’s New European discussing the Populist nature of our current PM’s politics, and the fragility of his tenure in the job.

Fingers crossed that it’s correct in its conclusion, and Johnson’s monstrous rule comes to an end quickly, and soon…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 11:37 AM

My Czech partner has told be that the Czech government may be about to put in place a travel ban between the Czech Republic and UK. on the feeble basis that new cases in Cr are 158 per day, and approximately 28,000/day in UK.

This does not provide grounds for victimising ordinary people as the high numbers are due 100% to the actions of Boris Johnson.

The borders must be kept open, and is that results in the variant that originated in India spreading through the rest of Europe like wildfire, then t will be nobodies fault expect for Johnson and the s**m who voted tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:43 AM

Labour's Kim Leadbeater has pulled off a surprise victory in the Batley and Spen by-election.

It had been expected that Tory challenger Ryan Stephenson would defeat Ms Leadbeater, sister of the murdered MP Jo Cox, after one of the most bitterly-fought parliamentary by-election campaigns in living memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:51 AM

Sadly my daughter in law was beaten by 10 votes in her bid to become a Labour councillor in Stoke :-( With the hurdles thrown at her by both the Tories and the right wing of the local Labour party she still did remarkably well and I am proud of both her for going for it and of my son for the help and hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:23 AM

I strongly suspect that the result of the Batley & Spen By-Election is a message to the Labour Party’s membership to stop fighting each other, and to unite to fight the real enemy - the worst Populist Tory government any of us can remember - and do what they exist for - to represent the interests of ordinary people. We need a Labour Party than can get elected, not a bloody debating society for dogmatists to slug it out with one another over Labour ideology.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:05 AM

I feel the result of the Batley and Spen bye-election is very difficult to draw conclusions from. I have seen a lot of comment from the Conservative side pointing out a margin or around 300 votes in a historically Labour seat is a bad sign, but that, deliberately or otherwise, ignores Galloway and his stated objective of splitting the Labour vote. If he had not done that, the margin would be substantially greater.

On the other hand, Hancock's Half Hour and some support for Leadbeater because of Jo's murder will have played a part, and that only needs to have shifted the opinion of a few hundred to alter the result.

My feeling is that there will be a lot of special pleading on both sides and drawing any firm conclusion is risky.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: G-Force
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:10 AM

And the 'Rejoin EU' candidate got 75 votes!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:37 AM

Tory vote percentage was DOWN compared with the previous election in 2019. NOT a good vote for the Tories whatever spin and lies they are spouting on the BBC breakfast programme.
The Labour vote was split by George Galloway.
If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:18 AM

If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.
It also totals up to 65% being anti the official Labour candidate.
We can all play the game of saying that every vote not in favour of one thing must be 'anti' them, but most people would vote for the candidate that they wish to succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:45 AM

And 66%^ voted against the official tory candidate. Just be grateful that the people of Bately & Spen decided that they did not want tory garbage representing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:02 AM

i think that it is fair to say that there is - and always has been - a significant majority of the voters who are anti-tory - and particularly in their current rancid and inept incarnation. of course, their opponents have to stop splitting and arguing and do everything to rid ourselves of this curse on the uk and on civilized poltics. i play turn about with labour/green dependending on the level of hopefulness in the LP and will always vote anti-tory. uniting an anti-tory block should be possible if we allow and encourage dissenting voices - and scottish, welsh, NI progressives - to feel valued. we just have to be realistic and positive. however - on no account should we ever regard the libdems as anything but tories with a bit of a conscience. splitter? moi? nae chance!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:32 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away. Well that is not going to happen. The real splitters in the party are the Blair/Brown ex-acolytes and their descendants who forgot long ago that Labour was founded as a party for the working classes and trade unionists, not as the conscience-ridden arm of the establishment. Instead, they revelled in the "glory years" of Blair and ignored the inconvenient fact that the gap between rich and poor grew faster in that 13 years than it ever does under the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn was demonised because he hadn't forgotten what Labour is for. This morning we had Mandelson, that yesterday's man par excellence, on the radio spitting out bile about Corbynists. Even though we won the bloody by-election, he simply couldn't help himself, could he. And before the result was known, the chatter was about who would take over from Starmer once he'd been booted. Guess what: the best they came up with was Yvette Cooper. Yvette bloody Cooper. A disaster waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:47 AM

i agree. i would have thought there was a natural alliance with the labour right and 'wet' tories. and liberals. it's always been true that you are part of the problem or the solution - these cynical chancers have made their decision. (incidentally those on the tory 'left' have been very quiet since they were purged from the party. i wish the labour right would start supporting the membership or give up likewise)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:01 AM

”I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away”

Made-up Shit Steve - you keep trotting out this bollocks, but you’d do better to read what I actually write instead of indulging in this deceitful practice of putting your own perverted interpretation on my words and pretending I’ve said something I haven’t. That was Jim’s tactic - it stank when he lowered himself to it, and it stinks just as foully when you sink so low. The plain, unarguable fact is that nowhere, but nowhere, in my post have I said that ‘the left of the party should shut up and go away”.

Now knock off the made up shit, show a bit of honesty and, to quote your own words, get a bloody grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:11 AM

I know what you are saying, John, but by your own token, Steve did not say that you were telling the left to shut up and go away! That aside, what is your recommendation for unity in the Labour party? Are you suggesting that we of the left wing give up our principles and indulge in a bit of right wing populism just to win elections? That is what it sounds like but maybe I am interpreting what you are saying incorrectly. Trouble is, if we do that, as per the article you linked the other day, populism is ultimately doomed to failure. Surely we would be best placed to win elections if we offered a real alternative to the Tories and the way the Labour party is currently being managed, that just is not going to happen :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:36 AM

I'm mostly well towards the left..

.. and I'm sick of a lot of the self indulgent middle class student politics 'socialists'
who are taking over the party,

It's not an extension of the bloody NUS.. it's the Labour Party for supposedly mature grown ups...

Stick to the basic working class / Union principles,
and leave all the distracting divisive voter alienating single issue religion/sexuality/etc obsessions to the liberals...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:47 AM

Thank you, Dave!

I taught in east London through most of the 70s and was active in what was the most militant local NUT branch at the time (I've mentioned before that Blair Peach was my union buddy at the time). We militant types were constantly harassed by both the
London and the national NUT leadership to drop our calls for action and accept their brand of "unity." That meant letting things go, never calling for action, getting permission from the top, etc. and being castigated for stepping out of their drawn line. We stood on picket lines for school cleaners, hospital workers and the fire brigade at six in the morning in the freezing cold before going to work. We were organised sufficiently in schools to ensure that the headteachers never got a bit beyond themselves (and that often resulted in greater harmony). We were DOING STUFF, not sitting around passing pointless resolutions or moaning in staff rooms. Unfortunately, those are the things that the Union has been doing ever since Thatcher was allowed to emasculate us. And look where it's got us. Since the 70s, class sizes have got bigger, school buildings are crumbling away, we've had pay freeze after pay freeze and classroom teachers are drowning in bureaucracy instead of being allowed to channel their energies into their classes. That's unity for you. And by the way, some of those union bosses who were calling the shots had never set foot in a classroom. We should never let the powers that be persuade us that militant with a small m is a dirty word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:12 PM

An apology would have been nice Steve, or at least an acknowledgement that I didn’t say what you were implying. The fact that you don’t have the cojones to admit your fault speaks volumes. But it surprises me not one jot.

So to be absolutely crystal clear, when I say, “…Party members to stop fighting each other and to unite to fight the real enemy…” I’m talking about the entire membership, irrespective of individual political views. I don’t give a damn about individual political leanings - Individuals’ precious principles are worthless when, not only can the Party not get itself elected to government, but also its lack of seats in the HoC make it incapable of mounting an effective opposition.

It’s not for me, a non-member, to tell the Labour Party how to solve its huge problems, but Politics is, and always has been, a world of compromise. Somewhere along the line, compromises have to be made - by all sides - in order to make the Party acceptable to the majority of voters. Failure to do that, a refusal to do whatever is necessary to defeat the worst Tory government any of us here can remember, is a dereliction of the Party’s duty to the people it was created to represent, and the intransigent ‘My Way or the Highway’ types would do better to take the highway.

I repeat - what’s needed is a Labour Party that can get itself elected, and can begin to repair the damage that the Tories have wrought on the weakest, most vulnerable. What we don’t need is a bunch of dogmatists beating each other up over ideology in a toothless debating society.

And Steve, your rambling, preachy accounts of what you claim to have done fifty years ago carry absolutely no weight in the here and now. It’s just political onanism, and it doesn’t do a thing to help the people who need a Labour government the most. Lose the cassock, and get a grip.

IMHO, YMMV of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:42 PM

I am outside the best part of a half bottle of good scotch so I shall not attempt rational argument but the thing that strikes me about your last post, John, is that it does not address my question about how you propose to unify the Labour party. Ok, you are not a member, but if you have such strong feelings about the Labour party getting elected, you must have some idea how it should go about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:46 PM

BTW, I am no longer a member of the Labour party. I resigned after Starmer's attack on Becky.

Yes, I do know her well enough to be so familiar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:31 PM

The most important thing is to get a Labour Party Government of whatever hue.

I detested Blair and his ilk, and despise many of the policies they brought in .............. I left the Labour Party because of them.

However I would rather have the likes of THAT labour party than the callous cronism of the current parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:51 PM

Dave, I’m a voter who has supported various incarnations of the Labour Party (including Corbyn’s). I have little understanding of the mechanics by which the party organises itself or functions. But I’m aware that ‘something’ is broken in the party, and I am of the opinion that, until that something is fixed, Labour is, and will remain, unelectable.

If my car breaks down, I don’t have the knowledge or skill to fix it, but I sure as hell know it’s broken down. Likewise my central heating or my dish-washer. You don’t expect me to be able to tell the repair guy how to mend those things, so why do you expect me to be able to explain how to ‘mend’ a ‘broken’ political party? It’s not necessary to know how to mend it in order to realise it’s broken.

The membership are the ones who have to make an unelectable party electable, and kicking lumps off each other won’t help that process. And, after fifty years in higher management in industry, one thing I’m absolutely certain about is that intransigence is the enemy of good decision making, and that the best decisions are arrived at when everyone involved sets aside personal enmities, old feuds, and ‘un-breakable’ principles, and all agree to compromise, at least a little, in order to reach agreement.

The intransigence and belligerence of, for instance, Steve’s posts sadden me, because they strike me as typifying the bitterness in the party that is preventing it moving forward and making itself electable. Again, during my working life, I was made brutally aware time and time again that harking back to the past and trying to re-fight old battles is not just un-productive, it is destructive in the extreme.

Somewhere along the road, the fights have to stop, compromises have to be made, and the Labour Party has to unite against the Tories and Populism. Otherwise, it’s had its day, and the Tories will have theirs in the form of permanent government. Is that what you guys want?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:53 PM

Again, I know what you mean,Raggy, but I'm not sure I agree. Is "Tory light" any better than Tory? I'll decide when I'm sober!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:18 PM

So marginalise the left (Kinnock couldn't manage it, John Smith probably wouldn't have, but Blair did it better), get yourself elected and be a Tory anyway. Not only did Blair massively enlarge the gap between rich and poor, not only did his thirteen years of light-touch regulation on the irresponsible financial institutions eventually give the Tories the go-ahead to visit years of miserable austerity on the poorest in the country, not only did his lies help to visit years of terrorism on this country, but he also heartily supported an idiotic administration in the US that shat on the Palestinians and advocated for a detestable Israeli regime. That's what happens when you'll do anything, anything at all, to get elected. That's why I'm extremely sceptical when the centre-right in Labour "calls for unity." I am still a member of the Labour Party, I want the party to return to its core values (not those that Starmer thought he was alluding to standing next to Kim today, but the real ones). If there's a lesson to be learned from our election defeats in 2010 and 2015, when the unity people in the party were calling the shots, it's that you do not convince the voters to support you if the only conviction you have is to be a Tory-camp-follower-but-with-a-conscience. That's why Keir Starmer will be trounced at the next election. By the way, my sister saw Jo Cox growing up, she's friends with her mum and she knows Kim. They are by no means Corbynites, that lot, but they are driven people who really do understand Labour's core values and who fight for their own communities. A bit more of that would be good. That's how you win. Today, Mandelson demonstrated precisely how we'll lose.

As for you, BWM, I don't respond to today's posts from you because I find them to be personal and offensive and completely off-beam. You might think that they are somehow heroic because they're from the hip, etc., but I'm afraid they don't do it for me. Maybe we will talk tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:29 PM

Go easy on that whisky now, Dave. I have four bottles of superb single malts which I got for my 70th a couple of weeks ago. I find at my age that it's Nero d'Avola OR whisky, not "and." I've been known to have a nightcap of malt after the vino and have found that this is not necessarily a wise move. Mrs Steve is fairly merciless when it comes to not permitting lie-ins...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 03:20 AM

Sorry John but that just does not wash. You know it is broken, you do not know how to fix it, yet you do know that it needs unity. Yes, it does need compromise to achieve agreement in any situation. Compromise is a two sided thing. Why then does it seem to be just the left wing that are targeted as being the ones who are rocking the boat? This is not having a go at you or anything personal. I have noticed that in general it is always left wing intransigence or the loony left who are at fault. We have to ask ourselves why this is and the most likely answer is that the people pulling the strings want to demonise the left to ensure that government stays firmly behind their interests rather than for the good of the majority.

In answer to your question, Raggy, yes any Labour government must be better than this shower of shysters but, again, I am not convinced that moving further right will be of any benefit in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 03:34 AM

Picking up on something PFR said. Maybe the Labour party is not currently fit for purpose in that it no longer represents the very people it is supposed to help. Maybe if it stopped pandering to higher management, computer professionals and well to do retirees, and started representing the interests of the majority of the workforce it would win their vote. Or is wanting a party that helps the poorest rather than the well off just wishful thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 05:44 AM

Jeremy Corbyn, unexpectedly, was elected leader. Tom Watson became his deputy. Tom Watson never failed to brief against Corbyn at every opportunity, though he remained his deputy. Other members of the Miliband right-wing faction, lots of them, when Incited, refused to serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, and they also briefed against him, frequently. A cabal of disaffected Israel sympathisers ran a prolonged and concerted campaign to paint Corbyn as an antisemite, a massive lie perpetuated by some extremely dishonest LABOUR PARTY members who, with the help the Daily Mail, managed to hand a massive majority in the 2019 election to the Tories on a plate (OK, we would probably have lost anyway, but at least it wouldn't have been the drubbing it turned out to be). When Starmer became leader, one of the first things that happened was that Corbyn was expelled on extremely dubious grounds. Starmer also sacked Becky Long-Bailey on the slightest of pretexts for doing next to nothing wrong.

OK then. Shall we talk about "compromise" again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 05:47 AM

"Incited" was supposed to be "invited".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 10:57 AM

I have just been listening to something that sounds completely unconnected but I will draw the link at the end. In the meantime, just listen to the tale.

A nearby church is in the area of Pear Tree, now part of Southampton, but on the other side of the River Itchen. It was built in around 1618 and consecrated in 1620, in order to avoid having to cross the river the whole time. While some 20 smaller chapels were consecrated after the Reformation this was the first full church to do so, and there was no process to do it, so it had to be prepared specially. It had to satisfy the high Anglican wing who wanted fonts and other such fittings, and the near-puritan wing who thought all of that sort of thing idolatrous. It had to address the abstract religious aspects and the legal and day-to-day stuff like who legally owned the land and who tithes were paid to, for example.

The animosity between those two wings of Anglicanism was huge; it was in living memory how people who went too far in one direction could find themselves killed as a consequence. The lucky ones found themselves merely heavily fined, imprisoned or shunned. Many on each side took a 'no comprise is possible' stance and felt their personal salvation depended on them doing so. No stakes could be higher.

Yet it was possible to construct a service that satisfied both wings. The way it was done was essentially by acknowledging each side's view and for example, showing those of the 'biblical fundamentalist' tendency that everything that was done had a chapter-and-verse backing. Similarly, it said to those who wanted a feature "you can have it if you can show biblical backing."

Do not imagine for one moment the rows between the Corbyn wing and the Blair wing (for the sake of names) are more than a pale shadow of the animosity between these two religious interpretations. The solution was not to 'find a compromise in the middle'. It was for each to recognise a legitimacy in the other. Stop treating the situation as a battle with an enemy. Both sides needed to do that for Pear Tree, and I think the same applies to Labour. Fail, and Labour fails completely whichever point of view you hold. Succeed, and both sides can get much of what they want by persuading the other wing, not by attempting to browbeat them into submission.

Maybe Labour is too divided to do that. I hope not.

Here endeth the sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 11:18 AM

Thanks Dave - A good sermon it was too. I think the pivotal point is

Both sides needed to do that for Pear Tree, and I think the same applies to Labour.

Yes, both 'sides' need to show willing and there has been precious little of that from either recently. Of course I could add that the Blair wing has had its own way a lot more than the Corbyn one but I would say that wouldn't I! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 03:11 PM

in tony benn's diaries he quotes eric heffer as saying that 'a bird needs 2 wings to fly' - if labour cannot compromise with its members and accomodate green, snp etc priorities then the left or progressive movement is fucked. the current government demands such a response from us. parties do not really matter - good faith, good ideas and a shared sense of care for the communities and the environment is overwhelmingly the most important thing. we are all just pointlessly squabbling - as ever. while the world is literally burning

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 05:15 PM

Using the same imagery if one wing dominates the other, the bird will fly round in ever decreasing circles until it disappears up its own arsehole!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 04:42 AM

I have read several times that the Labour rules prevent co-operation with other parties; it was claimed they cannot formally support a Parliamentary motion brought by another party, for example.

If this is a Labour rule, that does not mean it cannot be changed: there were the famous 'clause 4' debates, for example. But having had a quick scan of the rulebook, I cannot see such a rule in the first place. The nearest seems to be Chapter 13, clause X, but chapter 13 is all about local government, not the party as a whole.

Can anyone direct me to where the Labour rulebook prevents a formal co-operation with other parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 07:08 AM

I couldn't find anything during a half-hour peruse through the rule book, but, actually, I could never approve of, say, Labour declining to field a candidate in my constituency (historically a battleground between LibDems and Tories with Labour always a distant third). I want it to be up to me whether I vote tactically or not. I did just that in 2010 in order to keep the Tory out ("Don't let the Tories win here" was the campaign slogan) which worked, but then the "progressive" LibDems sold their soul to the devil and propped up a party that went on to subject the poorest in the country to years of misery. As far as I know, MPs can be whipped or not to support a motion from another party, but I'm not up for formal deals to cooperate. We have a party system in which the parties each have their own set of values. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one other significant "progressive" party and that's the SNP, but their values and aspirations are very different to Labour's in many regards. And, not least, the SNP hegemony in Scotland is one of the main factors keeping Labour out of power. Which, of course, is Labour's problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 07:54 AM

sadly, the labour party are reduced to a small, bitter rump in scotland who (like the tories) have nothing positive to offer - just constant sniping at snp. surely, there are many snp policies (free student fees, no trident, free elderly care, prescriptions etc) that labour should be happy to support - and adopt south of the border. by co-operating in this way - and putting clear distance between them and the tories i'm sure their appeal could improve in scotland and elsewhere. the labour leadership don't seem able to confidently promote progressive policies - they could let others - nicola sturgeon, caroline lucas, regional leaders etc - do some of the work - and offer a broad left (!) platform that even some of us old left could lend support to in these extreme times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 08:33 AM

Unfortunately, I don't see how, on a practical level, that would produce a majority "progressive" government that will promise to act in concert.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 11:28 AM

Steve:
And, not least, the SNP hegemony in Scotland is one of the main factors keeping Labour out of power. Which, of course, is Labour's problem.
Surely that should also keep the Conservatives out of power. It is easy enough to blame Scotland. The Labour party are not getting enough seats anywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 11:45 AM

It may be that lifelong labour voters need to consider a future without the Labour party...???

How about we all join the conservative party in our millions..


Then f*** the tories up from within...???

It definitely seems to have worked for them..
When Tory MPs fled like rats from a sinking ship to join and shape Blair's Labour new party..

Or when (allegedly) an organised mass of tory and even further right wingers purchased cheap labour membership in order to tactically vote Corbyn in as leader...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 12:26 PM

an inspired idea, pfr. they have seamlessly absorbed ukip types and in many cases (see workington) elected thugs and eejits to parliament. they have kicked out any brains and tories have no time for boring meetings and adhering to points of order, whereas we have many years of practice - a couple of years of pretending, undercover resistance, backhanders and rotten borough council seats and we would easily take the power. might take a bit of explaining to the family mind.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 02:23 PM

We're going to ranked choice voting in Alaska. That makes tactical (strategic?) voting normative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 02:46 PM

Er, I wasn't blaming Scotland, Nigel, and I tried to make that clear. But Labour once held dozens of seats in Scotland which are now well beyond its reach. That makes it incredibly difficult for Labour to get an overall majority. That's life, and no blaming of voters is necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 12:38 AM

I am a bit concerned with the accounts of the new NHS bill coming before Parliament. We will have to see the detail, but it seems to include a lot of powers for the minister to override local health decisions, which I find problematical.

A quick recap: go back far enough and the NHS was wholly under the responsibility of the Department of Health. This made the minister ultimately responsible for the decisions taken. This was then re-organised into "arm's length" bodies, which had strengths and weaknesses. The minister was less accountable, but it opened the way for more specialist and dedicated management.

It appears the new proposal combines the worst of those features. The accountability remains with the arm's length groups but the new powers will allow a minister to swoop in, override a decision about contracts, or opening and closing hospitals and so on, then fly out again.

I think we can take it as read the minister is unlikely to demand the closure of a hospital against the local advice. Why would they court such flak?   On the other hand, if a local authority has a budget problem and decides the only choices are to cut services everywhere or close a local hospital, there will – as always – be a local protest and the minister can turn up, declare the hospital stays, collect all the popularity and disappear again, forcing the local health bodies to cut the services as their only other way of balancing the books.

It looks as if the minister can act with no knowledge of the local circumstances, then leave without suffering any of the consequences, leaving others to sort any mess arising.

Again, the minister can force through contracts, overriding local decisions. If that is not another PPE jobs-for-chums scandal in the making, I don’t know what is.

I also mentioned that the current structure was introduced to enable management by highly skilled and dedicated people as one of its strengths. Dido Harding? She still seems to be in the running.

All in all, the proposals as reported so far sound potentially quite damaging for the NHS.   But we will see shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 02:41 AM

In reality the domination of the SNP in Scotland is only a really serious disadvantage to Labour at Westminster as long as Labour declines to contemplate working even informally with other parties and sticks to the flawed idea that you must have a majority in parliament. The SNP members sent to Westminster are in essence an anti-Tory block of votes. The SNP have said on various occasions that they would vote with Labour on a case by case basis - and in most instances they would be very unlikely to vote with the Tory opposition against Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 02:48 AM

Plus of course the maths means if the majority of Scottish MPs are not Labour then it is harder to get a majority. That is obvious. However the demographics are that for the Scottish MPs to actually make any difference numerically the result needs to be incredibly tight in England itself. All the Blair and Brown gvts still had a majority of seats even if you disregard the Scottish MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 04:33 AM

That's true, but anyone who is labouring under the illusion that Labour could ever again (at least in my lifetime) get a majority double the current Tory one (which is what Blair did twice), which would need bags of Scottish seats (as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle), is whistling in the dark. The landscape has changed irrevocably. I'm all for informal case-by-case alliances, but the plain fact is that anything formal can only work if no party has an overall majority, and, as I said, I want it to be my choice to vote tactically or not. If Labour declines to put up a candidate in North Cornwall in an attempt to get a LibDem elected, I would feel disenfranchised and I would leave the party. I see the LibDems as a despicable bunch of unprincipled, lightweight opportunists. And last time that smaller party threw their hat in the ring with the Tories they were punished almost to extinction in the next election. For me that was the only highlight of the 2015 election. And let's not forget what happened to the SDP. No-vision chancers who helped to keep Thatcher in power. One day Labour will win again. The party was a basket case in the mid-80s and twelve years later got in with a massive majority. Who'd have thought it (or is that me whistling in the dark...). We play to win and we must do it on our own. In m'humble, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 05:07 AM

So kind of the SDP to keep the Conservatives in power. But,
Before the SDP was created the Conservatives were in government with a majority of 43.
After the SDP dissolved in 1988 the Conservatives won a general election in 1992 with a majority of 21.

Margaret Thatcher may have had the benefit of a larger majority because of Labour voters turning to the SDP, but that doesn't seem to have been necessary to keep power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 06:21 AM

They didn't exactly help. A big part of their message was very much anti-Labour left. All that nonsensical guff recently about Shirley Williams being a woman of honour and integrity made me squirm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 06:54 AM

yes i used to reckon that shirley w was a decent politician but then came the coalition's disastrous health reforms. as i recall, as a 'conscience' politician she took a day or 2 decide but then, inevitably for a liberal, came down on the tory side of the debate. final decider for me of whether to ever trust any of them again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 07:04 AM

it's always been politically useful to the tories to have a tory-lite friendly group of stooges who appear to give a centrist balance. along with the labour right, all major political voices have united to attempt to isolate progressive ideas and isolate the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 09:02 AM

An extract from the article What Labour's Batley and Spen Victory means for the Party's left (Tom Blackburn in the Guardian):

Those hoping that this byelection result will pour oil on troubled waters and bring an end to Labour’s factional infighting are likely to be sorely disappointed, however. On the contrary, the party’s right wing will most likely take the win in Batley and Spen as a green light to step up its factional war on the left. Sources close to Starmer have already started issuing thinly veiled threats of vengeance against Rayner, as well.

Just last week, some of Starmer’s allies were suggesting he should make do with being another Neil Kinnock; in other words, give up on any hopes he might have had of becoming prime minister and instead settle scores with the Labour left on their behalf. In particular, this means ensuring that the left is never again in a position to win the party leadership, specifically by changing the rules for future leadership elections.

There will therefore be pressure on Starmer to capitalise on the win in Batley and Spen by further marginalising the Labour left, deterring future leadership challenges from this quarter and possibly clearing the way for a shift in policy direction. Starmer won the Labour leadership promising to bring about unity and a decisive end to its years of exhausting internecine strife, precisely what party members wanted to hear. But just over a year on, it remains as divided as ever.

To this end, there is speculation that Starmer and his backers are planning to return to the old electoral college system. This would give the parliamentary Labour party – where the left accounts for only a fairly small minority – a disproportionate share of the vote, presumably making it all but impossible for the Labour left to win again. This is despite the fact that it was actually the Blairite right that successfully badgered Ed Miliband into introducing “one member, one vote” in the first place, in what transpired to be a calamitous miscalculation.

Well it doesn't look promising, does it? No accommodation or compromises, just an eye to marginalisation. Not the way to stop the infighting, but Starmer hasn't got the vision to see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 09:33 AM

Is Tom Blackburn able to give us the lottery results for the next draw?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 09:40 AM

Does the sentience thing belong in this thread?I find it fascinating.

British parliament is debating whether [some] animals are sentient.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 10:09 AM

Re when I was talking about working on a case by case basis I was not meaning electoral pacts or not standing in seats etc. Scottish politicians are well used to now running with minority gvts. The SNP have never been in a coalition. There is some talk that there might be one shortly in Holyrood but that would be the first time. They generally seek support from other parties on an issue by issue basis. If they haven't got the votes to get a measure through then so be it. Sturgeon said several times she had no interest in going into a Westminster coalition with Labour but would look to work with them on a case by case basis. Hence Scottish SNP MPs are not a major barrier to a Labour gvt.

As to 1979. Heavens that was 42 years ago and a different time with different leaders and different issues and quite frankly a completely different SNP. It was before they swung to the left and those advocating a swing to the left (the 79 Group) were soon afterwards expelled from the party and that included Salmond. Yes along with the Lib Dems they brought down Labour but that was on the back of them viewing Labour as betraying the Scottish elecorate in regard to the devolution referendum. However to compare what Gordon Wilson chose to do in 1979 with what Sturgeon would likely do now is nonsense. She has repeatedly said she would never keep a UK Tory gvt in power.

Likwise the idea that Thatcher benefited because of Scottish voters turning to the SNP is just plain and simply not true in the least. The SNP's share of the vote in 1979 (Thatcher's first election victory) dropped by 13% from 1974 and they only returned 2 MPs as opposed to Labour's 44 Scottish MPs. In 1983 it dropped by a further 5.5% though they retained their 2 seats as opposed to Labour's 41 MPs. In 1987 their vote recovered slightly but still only gave them 3 seats as opposed to Labour's 50 Scottish MPs. 1992 saw them get 21.5% of the vote which was up on 1979s 17.3% but still well below the 1974 number but they were still left with only 3 seats compared with Labour's 49. Labour was by far the dominant party in Scotland throughout the Thatcher years and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 10:37 AM

But how would a leftist SNP be any use at all
in keeping the tories out of power,
if you ever win full inependence...!!!

Yeah.. very dependable mates...

Like if my next door neighbour promises to back me in a fight against the town bullies,
then as soon as possible fucks off abroad leaving me in the lurch...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 10:58 AM

Well we are talking in the here and now and in the here and now Scotland is a part of the UK. Beides I am not arguing that Labour need the SNP to gain power. What I am saying is as we are at the moment a majority SNP in Scottish Westminster seats is no barrier to a Labour gvt. For a Labour gvt to happen though then England is going to need to vote for it - or at the very least the vote would need to be extremely close in England for Scottish members to make any difference. That is just a plain fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 11:14 AM

Fancy words - but the SNP are basically selfish,
and don't care a toss about deserting and letting down their English and Welsh mates...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 01:03 PM

Well I'm no fan of SNP politicians, but I'm a great believer in self-determination for our smaller countries (and even some regions) that are routinely sidelined by our London-centric system of government. It makes me sad to think that Labour is so rigidly - ideologically - against Scottish independence. At the very least there is a good argument to be made for it. Yes, Scotland was for many years a Labour heartland. But it's my view that Labour lost that rather than the SNP winning it, and the obduracy concerning greater self-determination for Scotland was a big part of it. The landscape has changed and I can't see Labour making massive inroads in Scotland any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 02:25 PM

Steve - fair enough, we have to accept that Labour have blown their prospects of ever regaining votes in Scotland..

We all seem to agree on that...???

The problem is, we are being asked to rely on the SNPs role in any progressive alliance to stand up to tory majority domination.
When we know the SNP will jump ship at the earliest opportunity.
Leaving the rest of the UK with substantially weakened defences..

The SNP are not exactly best mates we can ever depend on in the long term...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 02:30 PM

.. now then, about the Wessex and Cornish independence movements..

You'll be stuck right at the arse end of the island..

While we can impose border controls on whether we let you in..

Remember our navy will control the Bristol channel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 02:50 PM

.. until we construct an estuary barrage defence to keep Cornish migrants out...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 05:10 PM

Ah, "how to 'wider interests'
Our ain we sacrifice,
And yet tine naethin by it..."

(Hugh MacDiarmid, "The Parrot Cry").

How often so many Scots voters continue to repeat the same mistake in the hope of getting a different result. How long before the observation attributed to Einstein becomes inescapably relevant?

ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 05:20 PM

Meanwhile...

I still have to read through the entire document on the.modelling for step 4, but here is a paragraph to entertain:

f all but baseline NPIs are released on 21 June 2021 (Table 4), and assuming central immune escape and 165% increased transmissibility for B.1.617.2 (and central R after NPI lifting), our results suggest a third wave with an additional 59,180 (95% CrI: 33,140, 101,218) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022 (Table 5), with a peak in hospital bed occupancy about twice as high as that from early 2021 (Figure 7). Results are very sensitive to the assumed levels of transmissibility and immune escape for B.1.617.2. In the most optimistic scenario considered (low immune escape and 150% increased transmissibility, and central R after NPI lifting), an additional 26,854 (95% CrI: 11,639, 54,990) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022, with a wave of hospitalisations similar in magnitude to the last wave. In the most pessimistic scenario considered (high immune escape and 170% increased transmissibility), additional deaths could reach 136,377 (95% CrI: 94,307, 189,456). Should transmissibility after Step 4 be higher, there could be up to 203,824 (95% CrI: 179,600, 241,116) additional deaths by 1 June 2022

So maybe 26,854 deaths, in the middle path. But maybe 203,824 if it is more transmissible.

Ending restrictions is so.obvious, isn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 06:11 PM

I will take a mask everywhere I go but I hope I won't have to use it. I won't put it on just because some mask aficionado wants to give me an argument. I won't put it on in Morrison's unless the company has a policy insisting on it (and for months I've been trying hard to avoid busy shopping times). I sanitise my hands before and after each shop visit without fail. I sanitise my hands again, as well as my car keys, every time I get back into my car. There's hardly any public transport round here so that doesn't apply. I'm not planning to go to a pub, theatre, cinema or football stadium any time soon. I'm used to keeping my distance without having to think about it. I've had both jabs. If I put on a mask and I think I haven't got the disease, the mask is a waste of time though I wouldn't know that. If I put the mask on and I have got the disease, then the first breath I take into that mask turns it into a dangerous, insanitary object that I'm sure to touch with my fingers several times while I'm wearing it. If I don't feel well I won't be going out. I'm not a COVID-denier and I'm not a mask rebel, but I hate the bloody things, think they are next to useless or worse and will be glad to see the back of them. So I welcome today's announcement and I hope he sticks to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 07:09 PM

So the modelling estimates 26,854 deaths optimistically and 203,824 deaths pessimistically and your response is pleasure you don't have to wear a mask?

I will assume you did not read my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 07:56 PM

Yes I read your post but I wasn't responding at all to its substance but was glad to use it as an opportunity to latch onto today's hot UK topic. That's all right, isn't it? The model extrapolates a long time into the future, describes several wildly different outcomes all based on suppositions that are currently little more than guesswork regarding variant(s) and produce spuriously accurate outcome numbers. Oh, and likely ignores confounding factors, such as the unpredictable changes in human behaviour in the months to come. Good luck with that. I'm a sceptic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:32 PM

I am seventy years old. Since I was a little boy I have suffered from trouble with painful sinuses and a blocked-up nose. I am well short of being able to claim that I should be exempt from mask-wearing and I would never dream of doing so. I am an extremely obedient mask wearer. I feel very strongly that this government has had no moral right to insist that I wear something over half my face for the past year. It is not possible to demonstrate that mask-wearing is beneficial in stopping the spread of the virus. A controlled-experiment style trial is impossible, and any "science" behind such claims is predicated on and limited to the kinds of observation that necessarily preclude considerations of confounding factors. Yet we are enduring an ethos of mask-wearing-is-the-moral-thing-to-do, and we have had it imposed on us, quite improperly in my view, by government edict. One in a hundred people may be infected, but we are telling the other 99, who threaten nobody, that they MUST wear a mask. Infected people, even if they're wearing masks, are a threat to everyone, but the other 99 are a threat to no-one. Well I've behaved responsibly since the first lockdown and haven't broken a single rule. But I want to CHOOSE whether to wear a mask or not and I want to hear the government giving information, advice and guidance only. No more edicts. I respect the wishes of people who want to wear masks and I would wear a mask rather than make anyone feel vulnerable if we were unavoidably very close to each other. But we drop this now or else we'll be wearing masks for at least another year. And then we'll get the same arguments all over again and it'll be another year, and another... This is the right time in my view. And you chose entirely the wrong word when you accused me of taking pleasure. Blessed relief would be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:46 PM

DMcG: I read your post, but pick out a clause which you may have decided to disregard:
In the most optimistic scenario considered (low immune escape and 150% increased transmissibility, and central R after NPI lifting), an additional 26,854 (95% CrI: 11,639, 54,990) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022, with a wave of hospitalisations similar in magnitude to the last wave. In the most pessimistic scenario considered (high immune escape and 170% increased transmissibility), additional deaths could reach 136,377 (95% CrI: 94,307, 189,456). Should transmissibility after Step 4 be higher, there could be up to 203,824 (95% CrI: 179,600, 241,116) additional deaths by 1 June 2022
So maybe 26,854 deaths, in the middle path. But maybe 203,824 if it is more transmissible.

The most optimistic 'considered'. Up until now we have been deluged with future projections, and almost without fail things have turned out 'better' than expected by the scientists. Or at least 'better' than the projections that have been used to frighten the public. The 'most optimistic considered' is not necessarily the most optimistic available.

I hope that when announcements are made for Wales (14 July) we also drop all, or most of, the restrictions we're currently living under.
The fact that it may then be permitted to drink standing up in pubs, without needing masks or 'social distancing', does not mean that the public will be herded into pubs by police with cattle prods. People will be permitted to make their own decisions about how and where they feel safe, and what, if any, further protective action they wish to take. The fact that face masks and hand sanitiser will no longer be mandatory should not be taken as meaning that they're banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:49 PM

Alleluja, Nigel.   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:05 AM

All modelling is limited and error prone, I agree. That is why I started off by saying "the model estimates": it is an estimation, not a certainty, by any means. 'The most optimistic considered' is standard scientific/mathematical jargon. They calculated the range for things like R values using the best available data and the best available analysis. If they used the lowest value for R they get the most optimistic considered, and the high end of the range you get the most pessimistic considered.   Of course, it is possible the R is lower that the low end of the range: it is possible it magically becomes 0. Nevertheless, on all available knowledge and testing and analysis it will not be lower than that used. Equally, it is possible R is higher, but they only considered the high end of the range of the analysis.

People are free to talk about anything they like and to disregard the model if they wish.   Johnson certainly seems be behaving as if he is. The hot topic of the day may well be masks, and opening nightclubs and all the rest.   But the warnings of the costs are published on the governments web site. Not talking about them does not mean the warnings are not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:18 AM

Supposedly, a combination of staying at home when possible, social distancing, masks and vaccines have caused a reduction in cases of, and deaths from, COVID-19.
Often in the same broadcasts that offer this information, I hear 'experts' on the radio saying that because there were so few cases of flu last winter (as a result of the staying at home, social distancing, vaccinations, masks) it is expected that there will be many more cases of flu next winter.
I don't understand why this would happen. Fewer cases of flu last winter should mean fewer people carrying the infection and therefore fewer people passing it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:23 AM

I should add I do not expect as many deaths as even the "optimistic considered", because if we begin to approach that figure, some of the restrictions will be re-introduced. The model assumes they are not.

I will repeat what I think the most valid criticism of my putting that extract into the thread is, which is the one I made of myself: I have not yet read the paper in its entirety. What happened was that I noticed Whitty said the number of hospitalisations and deaths had been modelled and that the model would be published. So I thought it worth trying to find that and then do a quick scan for what it estimated the number of deaths to be. Hence the extract.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:55 AM

I agree, Jos, that the evidence we will have a higher flu level this winter seems rather weak. I suspect a lot of it from 'armchair experts' is based on the idea of 'reverting to the mean': if you have a long term mean for something, and then an exceptionally low year, you will only revert to the mean if a compensating high value arrives.    That argument is more than a little dubious.

A stronger argument arises because illnesses like flu are broadly exponential in terms of infection. It does not matter greatly how low the starting number of infections is because after a short time the exponential effect dominates. Of course, in practice it is far more complex than a simple exponential, because it depends on encounters with susceptible people. As a result all infection curves are more 'S' shaped than a simple exponential, but in the early stages an exponential growth is a good enough model. It may well be that the experts think the low number of cases last winter together with less restrictions on meeting people will mean the number of encounters between infected people and susceptible people is far higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 04:20 AM

20,000 people died of flu in the winter of 2017-2018 but no laws were imposed telling us to wear masks or stay at home not mixing. Each year the flu vaccine is formulated using the best predictions of which strain(s) will predominate. Successful predictions will greatly help to reduce flu deaths. Different strains of flu viruses come from overseas as well as from within but no-one has ever suggested closing our borders every winter. Flu is a dodgy customer to deal with. We have to live with these things and try to live normal lives. Every winter there is a fairly effective campaign to inform people about flu and encourage targeted groups to get the vaccine. That is the right way to go. Information, advice and recommendations, plenty of publicity. But no coercion. This is our country, not the government's country. If we don't drop this now then maybe we never will. Compliance with the rules has been so high for so long that people's fears of catching the disease and becoming seriously ill are now exaggerated and lots of people are getting stressed about future mixing with unmasked people. Ninety-nine people out of a hundred you see with a mask on are doing nothing to stop the spread because they are not infected, so ninety-nine people out of a hundred you'll see unmasked will be doing you no harm. The fact that there is a law, not just advice, forcing those people to wear a mask is an outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 05:35 AM

The SARS coronavirus died out on its own without a vaccine. From the virus's
point of view, it failed because it wasn't infectious enough. Getting everyone vaccinated is the only way I can see of making life equally difficult for this virus. Children and young people are a big issue with the current virus. You can explain things to 14-year-olds and try to persuade them to be vaccinated. We have to make sure that any dangers of the vaccines are significantly outweighed by the benefits. It isn't easy, as young people rarely suffer significantly from the virus. Even younger children are a much bigger issue because they are not competent to decide for themselves and the risk-benefit balance is much more precarious (although we do vaccinate them against several childhood disease without demur). Reducing spreading from children is a key issue and I wouldn't mind betting that the science is straining to establish the safety of vaccines for children. My sister is the head of an infant school. Each year they are offered a flu vaccine (via their parents, of course) which is administered via a puff up the nose. It's done in a fun way and the uptake is around 98%. We have to be thinking outside the box. It's going to be all about the vaccines from now on. I'm criticised for squabbling about masks, yet I have never broken the rule. Vaccine-refusers are the people who really should be getting it in the neck from the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 05:59 AM

Vaccine-refusers are the people who really should be getting it in the neck from the rest of us.

I broadly agree. We have to remember that the benefits of the vaccine is far less clear cut for with those with a compromised immune system, of course, but otherwise I don't have much sympathy with refusers.

But it gets down to the same issue as masks, surely? I accept you should not be legislating to enforce vaccination, but to what extent should you be able to refuse services to people who will not? There are interesting notices from cruise companies, some of whom are requiring all passengers to be double vaccinated before boarding and some are not. That's a specific example of a general problem. They are trying to find the set of rules that maximises their custom as every pub and restaurant and theatre will also be trying to do.

The individual liberty versus general social benefit balance is rarely a simple one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 06:25 AM

Well I've behaved responsibly since the first lockdown and haven't broken a single rule.

I can't say the same. I have deliberately broken a rule fairly early on. Just the once, but I would do it again.

My nephew and his wife had their first child during covid. He was not allowed to be present at the birth and she was sent home after a very short time. Once at home, they had no form of support at all. No visits from midwives or nurses, no friends calling round, no doting grandparents to lend a hand.    After around six weeks of total isolation, with no help beyond zoom calls and the inevitable baby crying at all hours of the night, they were near collapse, and rang us. We went round (about 30min drive) and took the baby out for a few hours.

I don't regret that at all. If we were to get fined for it, I would pay happily.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 07:21 AM

And so you shouldn't regret it. You broke an unfeeling rule but acted like a decent human being. The most difficult thing for me was my mum in a home just ten minutes from me. Naturally, the setup didn't allow me to break any rules and the home was very caring and allowed me visit her (through a Perspex screen at the appropriate distance) every week or so. Very tough, as she was profoundly deaf, and with my face shield in place we found it next to impossible to converse. In the end I resorted to a portable whiteboard. It was awful but every day I read about much worse cases in homes apparently not being run by normal humans. Before that I'd been round to her room four or five times a week. She died (not of the virus) at the end of October. The hospital broke the rules (no pressure at all from us) to let us be with her at the end. I can't complain about tight rules in hospitals and care homes, I hasten to add. But masks, rules of six, bubbles and the rest should always have been matters for our own judgement, and the government's job should have been to inform, advise and guide. Too many edicts and nowhere near enough of that (and don't get me started on mixed messages). Ironically, the sudden lifting of all restrictions on one day almost feels like an edict in itself. The government will find it all the easier to get us to comply with orders next time around, and that, to me, would be a very worrying development.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 10:06 AM

So what about the animal sentience case?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 11:02 AM

So what about the animal sentience case

I haven't really followed it, to be honest, but my limited understanding is that it is not really about whether animals are sentient or not in actuality - which is essentially a scientific and philosophical question - but about exactly which existing laws apply to which animals. So an animal could be legally "not sentient" while passing some scientific tests, or vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 08:30 PM

...And I've just spotted irrefutable evidence that you, too, DMcG, read Marina Hyde... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 02:57 AM

I confess to doing so. I would like you to take reading John Crace into account when deciding on your sentence.

Though his column is only occasional, David Mitchell is always worth a read as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 03:29 AM

for the snp their opposition to the tories is unchanging and resolute. labour lost much of its support there as they are seen as 'in bed with the tories' and more likely to co-operate with them in sniping at the scottish government. were labour to offer a clearer opposition to tory rule and adopt some snp policies in england (elderly care, student fees, trident etc) then the need for scottish independence would decline and if they offered a proper partnership and more autonomy to scotland then it should not be beyond the wit of reasonable people to work for their mutual benefit. however, ignoring scotland, patronising them or cheating them yet again will prolong the agony for labour and give the call for independence another boost. a half decent, consensual, yet solidly anti-tory westminster government is what is needed both sides the tweed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 03:48 AM

Talking of reading: I have never read "The Fountainhead", though I have read extracts and reviews, most of which think it is philosophically feeble and, from the point of view of pure literature, very poorly written. The extracts I have read make me inclined to agree. But given it seems to have so many fans in government, I suppose I will have to get around to it and after all many influential books are not great page turners.

Anyone else read it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 04:27 AM

My sister met John Crace a couple of years ago when she was President of the NAHT. She's never stopped telling us what a very nice and very funny man he is. I loved his Digested Reads...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 04:35 AM

Good post, pete, and it chimes for me with what I was saying about Labour's rigidly ideological position with regard to greater autonomy/independence for Scotland. As I said, whether one agrees with the push for independence or not, there is a serious argument to be made for it, and failure to embrace that discussion in a constructive way was/still is a great way of alienating Scottish voters. Even here in Cornwall we are irritated by the blatantly London-centric UK political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 21 - 05:17 AM

Not so much London Centric, but more London Elite (+the shires) centric. London is probably the most economically and socially dividied part of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 21 - 08:09 PM

BBC Hardtalk interview Jess Phillips


?????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 21 - 08:16 PM

I can't stand the woman. Another anticorbynite. A born loser for Labour. I'll watch it tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 21 - 08:54 PM

GB News too woke for its viewers !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 21 - 04:25 PM

does anyone else feel the tide just may be beginning to turn?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 21 - 05:40 PM

Maybe. I have heard very few people in real life who are happy with the changes on the 19th. My wife was in the hairdressers today and they were saying how worried they are. After all, it is close contact with people for extended periods. They can and will continue to wear masks but it will be much harder to insist their customers do. Prof Chris Whitty said on Thursday that restrictions may need to be reimposed in as little as five weeks, before the end of the summer holidays. Big rises in cases and significant increases in hospitalisations and deaths, followed by yet another lockdown too late? I have felt for a while that Johnson's popularity will stay steady for a few more months and then will crack quite sharply: I see a sudden fall, not a gradual decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 21 - 06:00 PM

What an idiot he was to big up next Monday as "freedom day." We will still have to wear masks everywhere we had to wear them before. Travel will still be just as restricted. Wow, I can go the bar at the pub and jostle with a whole bunch of half-pissed people to get served. Wow. That bloody pinging app is wrecking businesses but he won't scrap what's his 34 billion baby. I've actually deleted it. Turn off your phone, no ping. Don't have a phone, no ping. Bluetooth off, no ping. Didn't download the app, no ping. And it all relies on the person you're in contact with not having any of those attributes. It's a farce. A typical Johnson farce. But he'll get away with it. I watched Starmer at Blackpool Tower and my buttocks have never been so tightly clenched....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 21 - 06:11 PM

Ah, the dreaded ping.

My sister is nearing end-of-life. We thought it imminent but the latest prognosis is maybe 12 more weeks. As a result, I took a six hour train journey last week. On Wednesday I got the 'ping': isolate for five days because of someone of the train (probably). I got this alert while out with some friends celebrating their 60th. That also blew up a long arranged meeting with friends on Thursday, seeing my son and daughter-in-law for only the second time since this thing started on Friday afternoon, missing my (prospective) son-in-law's father's 80th birthday celebrations on Friday evening, and we had things lined up for Sunday as well.

But on the bright side I am not trying to live off a zero hour contract.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 10:50 AM

Hairdressers have the right to not serve customers without masks, and they could urn this into a marketing opportunity that they are a safer place to go for a hairdo than those who allow customers in with masks.

With regards to the track and trace, there still needs to be legislation giving employees the right to full occupational sick pay for quarantine (based on contractual hour or regular working patterns).which can be reclaimed 100% by small businesses.

Similarly for those retuning form France who have been fully vaccinated ahead of johnson changing the goalposts 8pm on Friday. Hopefully the airlines, ferries and rail services have been forced by Johnson to lay on additional free of charge capacity so people can get home on Sunday night - though again, I would accept an obligation to pay people full occupational sick pay for the time they are required to quarantine if they can't get back on time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 11:05 AM

Technically all businesses have the right to refuse to serve customers, though it is not so easy to do so in this day and age.

"Hopefully the airlines, ferries and rail services have been forced by Johnson to lay on additional free of charge capacity so people can get home on Sunday night"

Forced? Do you really mean that? Or did you mean to say that the taxpayer should pay to ensure that everyone gets back on time?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 11:43 AM

It is the difficulty that is the problem, I think.

Imagine a customers comes in and, somewhat aggressively, refuses to wear a mask and says it is their choice, and the government agrees, and what are you going to do about it?

Yes, you can refuse. When you do so, you are probably refusing their custom for all time, and possibly that of some of their friends. That is not an easy decision after a year or more of very little income.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 12:21 PM

I agree DMcG, the 'muddle' is not helping anyone. I was at my local pub last Wednesday night, and they are unsure as to how they will proceed with the changes.

Though I look forward to the day that i can sit at the bar again, I think that day is still a way off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 06:35 PM

I may be in a minority of one in saying the following, but here goes. In England, even in these fraught times, around one person in a hundred currently has the disease. So (and this is very ballpark...) if you see 100 people wearing masks, 99% of them are doing it needlessly. In Wales it's three times even more needless. On top of that, many thousands of people are being pinged to be told to self-isolate for ten days. The vast, overwhelming majority of these people are completely healthy, and a free test that you can do at home in half an hour can show it. Whole factories and transport systems are being closed down by an app which is probably the worst idea ever from a man who specialises in very bad ideas. Well it's an app that I no longer have. Ping me and advise me to be careful and get a test, fine. Ping me to tell me to lock myself away, no thanks. I'll have to continue to wear a mask even though they're useless (in my opinion, how long have you got...) I've had enough of this. This disease will never go away. It'll grumble along in the background, with occasional surges, for decades. I don't want to hear any more guff about "saving lives." We can all save lives by never going out of our houses. What joy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 02:00 AM

I don't agree, Steve, as you anticipated. I don't think there is anything to be gained by a protracted argument, but I will just pick up on one point:

if you see 100 people wearing masks, 99% of them are doing it needlessly

That is true in one sense, since 99 do not have the disease, but it is a significant fact that you don't know which one. And so you cannot isolate them to control the disease.

Given that, the important thing is the payoff. Compare with these two games. In the first, you pay £1 for a ticket, but one in a hundred wins a £500,000 prize. Do you play? Especially if you can buy multiple tickets? I certainly do! Conversely, the same game with a £5 prize? No, I don't play.

So the "99 free from infection when only one is infected" leaves out a critical factor, which is the impact of that one infected person (given we don't know which of the hundred it is.)

Vaccination certainly reduces the impact significantly, so we are not in the position we were at the start. But I think relaxing almost everything on 19th is unwise, I would certainly have kept the mask rules in place.   Many people, including the Health Secretary of State ask 'if not now, when'? My answer is when cases, hospitalisations and deaths have been sufficiently low for an extended period. Hardening that up, I'd say cases stable at the level of a few hundred at most for several weeks.

As for the fact it will always be with us. I agree, so we will have to run 'forever' a system for detecting outbreaks and dealing with local outbreaks. As we do for other diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 02:47 AM

As always, politics and medicine do not go together well. Does the UK have its own version of Anthony Fauci, someon who can be considered an uninterested medical expert?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 03:01 AM

We have a number of people, such as Professor Whitty, who were regarded as broadly apolitical when they first appeared. There was even an occasion when one of the scientific advisors basically contradicted what the government spokesman said and left no room for doubt that is what he was saying. He was not invited back to press conferences for some time.

But more recently, they have seen seen as too close to the politicians, rather than presenting the straight scientific advice.

Dr Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of The Lancet, condemned the government’s chief medical officer Professor Chris Whitty and chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance. Horton stated, “The faux deference that you saw from both of them to the prime minister [at Monday’s Downing Street press conference] in trying to shore up his decision making, I thought, was an abdication of their independent role as government advisers.”

Referring to Whitty’s claim that there was “widespread agreement across the scientific community” with the government’s position, Horton commented, “I’m afraid you have to conclude that the chief medical officer is wilfully misrepresenting scientific opinion across the country, and that is extraordinary to observe.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 05:47 AM

The hole in your argument is the point I keep on coming back to. Right, you don't know which one out of the hundred may be infected. But, unlike your lottery tickets, which give you verifiable odds of winning, most (yes, really) of the hundred mask wearers will be illicitly reusing masks, touching the front at extremely frequent intervals, scratching their nose through it, taking it off to sneeze or blow their nose, putting it up in shops and down again on the chin when they return outside, shoving it in their pocket next to their snot rags and loose change, etc. Ninety-nine out of a hundred will not have coronavirus, but a good proportion of them will still be creating an insanitary and hazardous item. And all that we've been told about masks will makes lots of people complacent in a way that will affect their behaviour. And the one infected person is just as likely to be showing this bad mask behaviour, if not not more so (there's a good chance that they didn't feel well before going out but decided to shove that under the carpet, just the kind of inconsiderate person who would think nothing of indulging in bad mask behaviour). Fixed-odds lottery tickets are stubbornly inanimate and unchanging objects. A human being wearing a mask is just that, a human being.

I won't be going on crowded buses or trains. I'm going to do my shopping at quiet times. No pubs or theatres for me. I don't trust everyone to do the right thing, which involves staying at home if you don't feel well. But one fine day, when this is all done and dusted, we will be told that wearing masks was almost certainly doing more harm than good. Hindsight will prove to be a wonderful thing. We don't do this for flu, which can kill tens of thousands in a bad winter (we had one such just a few years ago), and we don't do it for colds, or even stop people with colds going into old people's homes. Rationality has flown out of the window in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 05:49 AM

Though I look forward to the day that i can sit at the bar again, I think that day is still a way off.

I find people who sit at the bar to be a pain in the bum when I am trying order and collect my drinks. Make the transaction then move out of the way to leave it free for the next people, as far as I am concerned. There are a few things that I would be glad to see not return to 'normal'.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 06:01 AM

I completely agree, Doug - ‘Bar-Flies’ are a complete pain in the rectum, especially the ones who seem to resent anyone else trying to get to ‘their bar’ for a drink, and who deliberately ‘spread themselves’ as wide as possible to prevent others’ access.

Back in the day when I played several nights a week in the clubs around Yorks., Notts., Leics., and Lincs., ‘Bar-Flies’ were forbidden and everyone had to move away from the bar behind a rail after they’d been served. Saved a lot of argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 06:52 AM

‘Bar-Flies’ were forbidden

should have been, ‘Bar Flies’ were frequently forbidden…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 07:00 AM

In many ways It's quite handy I gave up drinking for health and finance reasons two and a half years ago..

.. but anyway, all my favourite local old fashioned rough tatty pubs with authentic character and atmosphere,
have closed permamently...

Shut down and converted into flats in recent years before covid;
and the last one closed for good with the death of it's popular old landlord at the start of the pandemic.

He was an independent stubornly commited to CAMRA - the last of a near extict breed...

Others in town will never reopen due to covid, but that's the ruthless uncaring nature of survival of the fittest capitalism..


Personally, I had already got used to the normality of an alchohol free stay at home lifestyle well before this crisis...

So, I've no time for pathetic / callous bleating on about the adverse effects on mass public mental health
from going without a pint in a crowded overpriced pub,
far outweighing potential fatalities from in-pub covid transmission..

That's basically just cynical media propaganda from political shills for the big hospitality profiteers...

Roll on freedom day celebrations, and the inevitable expendable death toll...

..at least with only long covid, survivors might still carry on going out paying for a regular theraputic booze session..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 07:25 AM

”In many ways It's quite handy I gave up drinking for health…. reasons two and a half years ago..”

I gave up almost sixteen years ago, on the advice of my hepatobiliary consultant (to quote his exact words, “Alcohol is a pancreas-killer”). I hardly ever miss it - the only times I do are when we go to Crete on holiday, and when we’re cooking our Christmas dinner.

I wasn’t a boozer, but I enjoyed a few pints on a Friday night at our folk club, and a nice dram or tot two or three nights a week at home. All done now, but I’ve lived to tell the tale - my wife’s friend, who had the same health problems as me, and who ignored the warnings about alcohol, died two years ago at the age of 47 from pancreas/liver failure. Too young. Too sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 21 - 07:41 AM

Off on a tangent, some friends of mine recorded a tribute song to Georgie Best with all monies going to a suitable charity. The organisation involved and Georgie's estate were very pleased but asked if the lads could put it out without using their existing band name - The Barflies :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 02:26 AM

Two disturbing stories were in the Guardian today. One concerned a consultation under way about secrecy and the document is claimed to contain the proposal than the penalties ought to “be imposed by the executive rather than the courts”.

I am not aware of any existing UK law where punishments on individuals are at the whim of a minister without involving the courts. If this is actually what is being proposed, it should be dropped immediately. Arbitrary powers of fines and imprisonment vested in an individual? That is more like an absolute monarchy than a democracy.

The second is a reorganisation of the National Grid (the company, not the physical infrastructure) :

The government plans to strip National Grid of its role keeping Great Britain’s lights on as part of a proposed “revolution’” in the electricity network driven by smart digital technologies.


I hold no particular view on the structure and role of National Grid, but unless someone has the explicit responsibility to 'keep the lights on' we are heading straight for the problems Texas has had recently, where it could not meet the demand for electricity.

As it happens, I have a little knowledge of this area, via my now-deceased father-in-law who had a role in the design of the UK national grid, and similar grids for other countries. Without going into any details, the essential idea behind the grid that you need generating capacity in excess of the demand, in the form of power stations you can turn on if needed, but almost 100% of the time they are not in use.

Which was always a bone of contention with people who saw this as simply waste. They took the view that this is just a supply-and-demand problem, and rather than being able to increase supply, what you should do is reduce demand. At the time, the idea was entirely about profit, so reducing costs (by having less generators to maintain) while increasing income (by charging more to reduce demand) was far more attractive. So there is a decades-long argument between those who think a reliable power source is fundamental to the ability of UK business generally to fulfil their role and increase GDP that way, and those who see electricity as just another business with no special UK-wide responsibility.

These days, however, green thinking adds a further layer of complication: reducing demand is desirable for other reasons, not just the balance sheet of the generating companies. You do need to avoid what is called 'the diesel dilemma', though, which is where companies and businesses which need a reliable supply install diesel generators as backup, because these, while relatively cheap individually, in aggregate are far more expensive and resource-intensive than the centralised standby generators, and far more polluting as well.

So to summarise: I care little about what happens to National Grid as a company. I do care about what, if anything, happens to the remit to ensure continuity of supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 04:05 AM

Not so much absolute monarchy, but absolute autocracy, possibly even absolute plutocratic autocracy. The interests of the state should never take precedence over the rule of law - but the tories have been sabre rattling for some time when they have been obstructed for carrying out illegal acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 04:09 AM

As long as it doesn't include new taxes (which can be pinned elsewhere), the government will be able, because of their majority, to behave as oppressively as they wish, as long as voters think it will be 'someone else' who is being oppressed: EU nationals', asylum seekers, single parents etc e whatever is flavour of the month. And tory voters will lap it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 01:55 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xr8
0Episode 1 of 3

Andrea Catherwood crosses the Irish Sea and goes back home to Northern Ireland to ask what unionism means now and explore some of the challenges it faces.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 09:59 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xr80 Andrea Catherwood crosses the Irish Sea and goes back home to Northern Ireland to ask what unionism means now and explore some of the challenges it faces.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 11:15 AM

Not very encouraging programmes there, Sandman, but well worth listening to. It is a pity that so many, even now, think there are simple solutions to these issues. One particularly discouraging point was that so many people who were in the recent fighting were born after the GFA came into being.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 11:18 AM

Briefly returning to the question of determining who was an uninterested 'expert' I now understand that even these people cannot escape politicization after a spell. Yesterday Dr. Fauci was testifying in Congress and had a contentious spell under leading questions of Sen. Rand Paul. I support the Fauci side of that exchange, but in having to use the word 'support' I suppose I'm admitting that the issues are political as well as health orientated. It's a question of whom to believe in regards to facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 11:51 AM

Great news - johnson sent a demand to the EU demanding that they tear up the withdrawal deal. After a massive three hours of delibeartion they said - NO!

Johnson reminds me of someone who sells his house, than change his mind about moving and refuse to hand the keys over, and when the new owner brings the locksmith round decides to raze the building to the ground.

I suppose what johnson really wanted was for the people of Ireland to come back under English rule to solve his problem and keep the bigots voting for him and swear an oath of allegiance to the tory party every morning - maybe even force every home to fly a union flag with a picture of thatcher in the middle. (IRONY)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 12:31 PM

”Briefly returning to the question of determining who was an uninterested 'expert' I now understand that even these people cannot escape politicization after a spell. Yesterday Dr. Fauci was testifying in Congress and had a contentious spell under leading questions of Sen. Rand Paul. I support the Fauci side of that exchange, but in having to use the word 'support' I suppose I'm admitting that the issues are political as well as health orientated. It's a question of whom to believe in regards to facts.”

Robo, please note the thread title. AFAICS, your post has nothing to do with Brexit, or UK politics in general, it concerns US issues. We are permitted only one UK politics thread, whereas there is no limit to the number of US political threads.

Would you be so kind as to restrict your postings about US politics to US political threads, and refrain from cluttering up our one and only UK politics thread with meaningless (in terms of UK politics) ‘stuff’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 12:37 PM

”Great news - johnson sent a demand to the EU demanding that they tear up the withdrawal deal. After a massive three hours of delibeartion they said - NO!”

Good to see that it’s all going so well… ?? ??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 01:43 PM

DMcG I agree,Ulster says no yet again instead of looking at what positives might be obtained

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 01:13 PM

The Royal National Lifeboat Institution has raised more than £200,000 in a single day after defending its work rescuing migrants at risk of drowning in the Channel, while volunteering inquiries have almost quadrupled.

The RNLI said it had been inundated with donations and messages of support since its chief executive hit out at Nigel Farage’s claim that it was running a “migrant taxi service”.

Guardian newspaper

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 03:09 AM

Farage says that the RNLI is "doing the wrong thing" by rescuing migrants. What a wanker. He really is desperate for media attention isn't he. Hopefully he will go the way of the horrendous Hopkins woman and go down the drain with the rest of the sewage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:38 AM

More than 1,300 people died of drug misuse in Scotland last year, with the country seeing a record number of deaths for the seventh year in a row.

The annual figures showed that there were 1,339 drug deaths last year - an increase of 75 from the 1,264 recorded the previous year.

It means Scotland continues to have by far the highest drug death rate recorded by any country in Europe.

And its rate is more than three-and-a-half times that of England and Wales.

The number of drug-related deaths has increased substantially over the past 20 years and is now almost three times higher than it was a decade ago, with the upward trend accelerating since 2013.


Drug deaths in Scotland reach new record level


A shocking and depressing statistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 01:48 AM

i agree,Dave,Farage is despicable

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 03:50 PM

NHS falls from.first to fourth place

Safe in their hands, it seems.

It is not due to the pandemic either: it was falling

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 03:54 PM

... before the pandemic. Also, everyone else is having to deal with it as well. Javid, recall, warned us the waiting list could go as high as 13 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 02:23 PM

We are living in strange times.

Police helpless after thief passed border on French soil at Dover

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 05:45 PM

Serves the pub owners right for allowing 62% of voters in Dover to vote leave. KARMA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 02:35 AM

the Taliban will become the latest bogey men and distraction

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 03:50 AM

Partially true, Sandman. They will certainly be in the news and be used as justification for changes in laws. But the EU will still have to be retained as a bogeyman because some things just cannot be blamed on the Taliban however hard you try. So any downsides of Brexit will continue to be blamed on the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 06:05 AM

Since it appears that Russia is arming the despicable taliban ragheads, surely they are the biggest bogeymen to worry about??????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 06:36 AM

Try to choose a word other than ragheads.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 06:44 AM

Bonzo, if by ‘they’ you’re referring to Russia, then yes they are the biggest bogeymen to worry about - along with the other members of the triumvirate, China and Iran. By abandoning Afghanistan, the US and UK have played right into their hands.

You do have to wonder why, don’t you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 07:12 AM

Wall-to-Wall Taliban on BBC News. Perfect cover for the Johnson Gang to get up to a few of their nefarious stunts, I’d have thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 11:15 AM

Wall-to-Wall Taliban on BBC News. Perfect cover for the Johnson Gang to get up to a few of their nefarious stunts, I’d have thought.
It didn't manage to stifle the news of labour giving Ken Loach the boot ;)
Guardian
Strangely it seems not to be covered by BBC, a search for Ken Loach BBC, or Ken Loach Labour BBC only picks up earlier news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 01:08 PM

True enough, Nigel - it’s another BBC/Right Wing cover up story. They’ll use anything to divert the attention of the simple-minded, the easily-distracted, and the brainwashed away from the scheming and stunt pulling of The Johnson Gang.

After all, it’s not really ‘news’ that the Labour Party is publicly committing Hara-Kiri is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 03:38 PM

It has to be said that the Afghan army must have been absolutely bloody useless, to allow the country to be overrun by a rabble of absolute nutters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 03:39 PM

Oh I'm sorry, we mustn't offend the hideous taliban ragheads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 06:18 PM

bonzo barks and the village dogs wag their tails in jimgoistic joy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 07:33 PM

The Ken Loach story may not be covered by the BBC,
but run a search on "Ken Loach" and "NEC"
and there are journalistic reports galore.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 21 - 03:46 AM

”bonzo barks and the village dogs wag their tails in jimgoistic joy”

So who might these ‘village dogs’ be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 21 - 11:28 AM

The Village People's pet pooches...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 21 - 12:07 PM

bonzo and his dog doo dah band

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 12:05 PM

I like the imagery, PFR. Dogs dressed as builders, firemen and native Americans :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 12:41 PM

It's Britain in the 21st Century.. Nowt wrong with canine diversity...


It's fun to be at the R.S.P.C.A..

Though better to be adopted into a kind forever home...


Mudcatters.. song challenge...???

woof...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 03:34 PM

I rather prefer the thought of The Village People dressed as different breeds of dog. Everyone should be more Dog… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:11 PM

Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:36 PM

GTFU Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:53 PM

So today my daughter contacted the florist who was supposed to be providing the flowers for her wedding on 25th September. The florist had to tell her there will be no flowers because many of her suppliers have gone bust and those that are left cannot get anything like their normal supply. No doubt covid-19 plays a big part, but the trade organisations of florists were saying their supply was badly disrupted even before the pandemic because of the paperwork issues (you probably remember the seed potaro issue for Scottish potatoes; flowers have similar issues.

I mentioned this on another site where Brexit supporters were denying shortages, and their response was find a different florist and why should flowers from Kenya be affected. Apparently they do not understand that that is asking Kenya to supply everything it did plus a lot more ... But as I had to point out, even if we can, that is more work I have to do because of Brexit. (Our florists said the reason their suppliers went bust was because of supply issues, not staffing issues.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:17 PM

DMcG, where is the wedding?

Exports from the UK to the EU have been affected but imports from the EU less so.

Republic and other EU exporters benefit from the UK’s phased 12-month transition

No doubt a lot of tax revenue will also be lost during the transition period.

I hope she manages to get the flowers sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM

Uncalled for, John. And very defensive...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM

It is in the UK. Like many others, it has been re-arranged multiple times - this is the fifth date for her.

This version is for around 30 people - it has been much bigger and much smaller at various iterations. Her cousin gave up and got mattied when only five were allowed - the registrar, the couple the the two witnesses required by law.

we will try to find flowers but if we can't the wedding will just take place without them - I doubt if she could face another reorganisarion unless the law changed again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 06:19 PM

On your other point about the export-import problems, RainDog: I don't run a florists myself, but if they are having lose business and the income from it, especially after these last hard years, I am sure they are doing for a solid reason. So when they say they can't import what they need, I believe them, whatever figures aggregated over all businesses may suggest. There will always be sectors that are not well described by such aggregated figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 03:46 AM

We get it Steve, you’re scared of dogs. Now knock it off - a few of us were having a bit of harmless fun and you just had to come in with your po-faced, kill-joy comment. You’re really beginning to get on my tits, and it’s high time you stopped.

Have a bit of self-respect, grow up, and overcome your childish phobia - people are laughing at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 AM

DMcG

I have had a search for info but have only found general information. The flower business in both the Netherlands and Kenya has bounced back after last year. The wedding industry was badly affected by covid. Since the partial return to 'normal' the surge in demand has caused problems within the supply chains and has increased costs for EU exporters to the Uk. Added to that we have the transport problems within the Uk caused by the driver shortage.

Like i said, i hope she manages to sort the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:34 AM

Ye gods, John, you do seem to have anger issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:41 AM

I am just going out so have just skimmed this, but it gives a florists view

The impact of Brexit on the cost of flowers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 05:34 AM

I don't particularly like dogs. I'm not afraid of them and would never do one any harm but I would never have one. It doesn't make me a worse person. I don't know if Steve is actually afraid of dogs but I, for one, would never laugh at anyones phobias regardless of what they are. I know someone who is terrified of moths. She is neither childish nor a killjoy. To mock someone else's fears shows a distinct lack of sensibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 11:24 AM

Ye gods Steve, you do seem to have big mouth issues.

Every time dogs are mentioned you start your poking and prodding. You do it deliberately to get a reaction then, when you get the reaction you were after, you try to take the high moral ground in order to win. Childish playground behaviour, you really ought to be better than that.

Don’t poke and prod, then you won’t get a reaction.

Now I’m done, I have a strong feeling that this is no longer the place for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 02:07 PM

The first poke I can see in the whole exchange, John, is your "grow the fuck up" immediately after Steve's gnomic (stop gnoming, Shaw!) "Hmmmmm"

I have no axe to grind here but suggest that you save your ire for more deserving targets such as the Tories and their inept opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 PM

Due to my herniating discs, I've lost two inches in height over the last ten years. Also, I have a thirty-year-old garden gnome (with a fishing rod and a fish) called Norman who looks great but who's lost a bit of his colouring down the years. I guess that qualifies me to be regarded as gnomic...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 02:47 AM

Grudgingly...


Hmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 03:00 AM

What's with the hmmm inflation?

17th August Hmmm
18th August Hmmmmm
19th August Hmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:01 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:09 AM

Hm

(Ever the contrarian...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:15 AM

I'm just going to say cont for short...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 07:50 PM

From The Guardian

"Controversial plans for an enormous Brexit customs clearance park in Dover with a capacity for 1,200 trucks have been dramatically downsized in a major victory for local opponents.

Devastated homeowners have spent seven months fighting the plans, under which former farmland would have been concreted over, an ancient Roman way destroyed and night-time light and noise pollution caused for families living just 25 metres away.

But at a meeting last Friday, representatives from HM Revenue and Customs confirmed to the local parish council their U-turn.

Instead of 1,200 lorries, the site will now accommodate just 96, with 20 extra spaces for reversing trucks, and take up just a quarter of the original space."

And

"Building work is not due to start until February or March, which means it is unlikely to be ready before the summer six months after Brexit checks will be completely implemented.

This could mean lorries being diverted to the Ashford site closer to the Eurotunnel exit at Folkestone."

And

"A government spokesperson confirmed the downsizing of the White Cliffs site and that the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped.

We have reviewed plans for the border facilities in Kent needed to undertake customs, sanitary and phytosanitary inspections on EU goods as it is important we have suitable facilities delivering value for money for taxpayers,” they said."

Dover Brexit lorry park

Good to see that well thought out planning continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 01:40 AM

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped."

- which raises the question where those obligatory tests will be carried out instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 01:58 AM

Indeed it does DMcG.

The reason i highlighted that part was due to our exchange about flowers. The article does state that they are looking for another 2 sites to deal with animal/food/plant checks. It seems highly unlikely that any will be ready in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 07:46 AM

Just project fear. Everyone knows that Brexit will go smoother than a piece of silk with WD40 sprayed on it. Must be true, Boris said so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 09:16 AM

There should be plenty of room for presient suppositions. They can often be wildly wrong but Mr. Red has a creative mind by merely delving into possibilities that eventually will have outcomes. My take is that there are so many behavioral apps and selective referrals in some platforms that it is a more complex subject than fluid dynamics. On top of that each app effects other apps, like drug interactions, so I believe no one can truly know what google or Facebook is up to including those in charge. Its the cooler heads that prevail, not as a contest but as insightful hypothesis creators. Even facts get picked to the bone so much that they have a spectrum of meanings.
But dammit some things do have a consensus. Celebrate them when they happen. Reasons given by mods are just as opinionated and random as anyone else. Its great to admit it when there are good decisions. UK threads used to be like a desperate team sport that were practically injurious. Good for tension release but bad for the bullied psyche.
Freedom of speech should allow for you guys to rant as much as your heart desires. (It really won't effect above the line music threads)
Now, back to your regularly scheduled and important discussions and/or rants.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 03:22 AM

Rain Dog, There was no need for customs checks before we left EU, so there is no need for them now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 04:22 AM

There have always been customs checks. There were fewer once we became full members of EU but there were still checks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 21 - 12:55 PM

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped."

- which raises the question where those obligatory tests will be carried out instead.

But, why are those tests obligatory for plants coming into UK from EU? We accepted the plants before Brexit, so obviously believed that the EU had sufficient checks already in place on the plants, whether sourced from the EU or transiting through the EU.
The fact that we are now entitled to insist on such checks doesn't mean that we have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 21 - 01:20 PM

There is a bit of a change of topic, there, Nigel. Understandable given the thread, but a change nevertheless.

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped" is about all food and animal checks. It should not be confused with the fact my daughter is having problems getting flowers for her wedding.

There are minimum standard of SPS required by WTO. These are substantially lower than the EUs standards, and the country concerned has great flexibility in what it chooses to implement. So I accept that when I said' obligatory' I chose a poor word - the obligatory checks are minimal.

So if, as in 2013, a a Romanian-based slaughterhouse chooses to pass off horse meat as beef in the UK, we are under no kind of obligation to have the checks in place to detect it. Even in 2013, it was Ireland that detected it, but that was a role shared across the EU in several places, Now of course, we have to do it on our own - or not bother, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 12:25 PM

Dave:
There are minimum standard of SPS required by WTO. These are substantially lower than the EUs standards, and the country concerned has great flexibility in what it chooses to implement. So I accept that when I said' obligatory' I chose a poor word - the obligatory checks are minimal.

So if, as in 2013, a a Romanian-based slaughterhouse chooses to pass off horse meat as beef in the UK, we are under no kind of obligation to have the checks in place to detect it. Even in 2013, it was Ireland that detected it, but that was a role shared across the EU in several places, Now of course, we have to do it on our own - or not bother, of course.

So in effect you're saying that although the EU have higher standards, they don't enforce them.
Just as well we left ;)

In the UK, a House of Commons Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs report on the horse meat incident was not critical of UK or Irish producers. It expressed concern that horsemeat contamination was the result of fraud and other criminal activity across the EU. (From Wikipaedia)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 04:38 PM

No, I am not saying that, Nigel. All human systems have flaws, and some people will cheat them if they think there is a profit to be made. So the EU detection of breaches is part of the enforcement.

It is certainly no justification to abandon all checks and wave through those who want to defraud us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 12:28 PM

Well, it's been sat there long enough

1700!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 10:14 AM

From The Guardian

Brexit: food and drink exports to EU suffer ‘disastrous’ decline

"Exporters have struggled with the extra paperwork and administrative costs that came into force on 1 January 2021, with companies required to document their products for trading standards, customs and health reasons before entry to the EU.

Food exporters are particularly exposed because of the physical sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks that were not necessary before Brexit, with lorries facing partial or full unloads in Calais and other ports if any of the paperwork is missing."

And

"FDF said imports of food and drink and ingredients could “deteriorate” further in 2022 when full SPS checks on imports are introduced for the first time at Dover and other ports.

While the EU imposed the full suite of documentary, customs and SPS Brexit checks from 1 January, the UK decided to phase them in: new tax checks will be introduced on 1 October and food health checks are scheduled to begin on 1 January."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 12:01 PM

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.”.
David Davis, 10th October, 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 04:14 AM

There are times when I really hate being right. I honestly wish that all the lies people were told about how good and easy brexit would be turned out to be true. Of course the ardent brexiteers will tell us how much worse it would have been to stay in but that is speculation fuelled by Daily Mail fairy tales. They would rather believe the nonsense spouted by the right wing media than admit they were wrong :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 04:53 AM

Spot on Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:34 AM

There was at least one poster on here who was in favour of leaving the EU who thought (or knew) it might have adverse effects on a sizable proportion of the population and was quite happy for that to be the case.

A bit of "I'm alright Jack" and I don't give a fig about those who will suffer who tend to be the people at the bottom of the pile anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM

”A bit of "I'm alright Jack" and I don't give a fig about those who will suffer who tend to be the people at the bottom of the pile anyway.”

In other words, the attitude of your typical Tory - even more vicious when it’s a working-class Tory (or, as my dad always referred to those types, a ‘Mucky-Toff’).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 02:54 AM

I don't give a stuff about Johnson breaking promises (thoroughly expected and unsurprising), but this furious debate about how we should pay for social care is something else. Many of the arguments about how much of your dosh you should keep before the state pays for your care, including keeping your empty house if you move into long-term care, I find to be outrageous. It seems to me that we're arguing for protecting inheritance. Well I don't think inheritance should be protected, obliging the state to pay for the care of people with large assets at a cost to much less well-off working people. If you have assets and you go into care with no prospect of that being turned around, you should pay for yourself. I see it as a pretty simple moral issue. Shoot!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 03:48 AM

Problem is, Steve, those with a massive estate to protect have the wherewithal to set up protection for that estate anyway. Those, like us, who have a moderate estate could, possibly, loose it all to care costs. Those with no estate at all are looked after anyway. The other issue is that if long term care is for a physical disability, the NHS fund it. If, however, it is for dementia of any sort the NHS do not fund it and the local authority are empowered to use your estate to provide that funding. There are massive flaws in the system and, while I do not have the answers, I can see that it is distinctly unfair.

Besides, surely the £350,000,000 a week we have saved by leaving the EU is now being used to restore the cradle to grave concept of the NHS. Isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 04:44 AM

I agree with you, Steve, that we should really be looking at inheritance taxes for this. (It would also, incidentally, allow the Tories to keep their commitment not to raise VAT, NI or income tax.)

But the effect would not be limited to those with high values estates. Broadly, anyone who currently pays someone as an accountant will find ways to avoid most of the inheritance taxes, probably. These are, though, well aware of the impact of the 'death duties' that ended a lot of old estates and why so many are in the hands of the National Trust instead. The wealthy do not want to see a repeat of that.

Many of us, though, bought a house a decade or more ago and have seen its price double, treble or more in that period. That is unearned income just like that of the super-wealthy. There will be a lot of people upset - i.e. not as likely to vote for you - if the value of their estate is hit too hard. That may be the most just way of paying for things. I think it probably is. But it will cost politicians dear, and so they will avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 06:27 AM

The other thing I am not comfortable with is the two tier care system. Those with the money will get better care than those without and, trust me on this, trying to find a good care home for those without funds is not easy. I also worry about what happens if you are still in care when your funds run out. Do they kick you out of the good care home that you helped to privately fund and put you in an underfunded one? Genuine question - I really don't know

I think it would be fairer all round if the property was left to the estate and inheritance tax was charged. That way, everyone can get the same care without losing their house and inheriting massive estates pay more than those with modest ones. Of course we know that is not the way bozzer and his cronies work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM

Besides, surely the £350,000,000 a week we have saved by leaving the EU is now being used to restore the cradle to grave concept of the NHS. Isn't it?

This one again?

Apart from the fact that the bus did not say that the whole £350m would go to the NHS, a quick check with a reliable source gives the NHS Budget as £137.4bn for 2016/17 and £159bn for 2021/22 a rise of £20bn (in real terms). £350m p/w for 52 weeks comes to just over £18bn

Details taken from here:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:20 AM

Equally though, Nigel, are you saying if the vote had been Remain there would have been no rise in the NHS budget?   Surely there would have been. So any rise due to Brexit would rationally have to be over and above that which would happen anyway?

Now, actually knowing how much over and above what would have happen is probably unknowable (though you could perhaps form an estimate of what the rise not due to Brexit would have been if historical trends were followed.) But it is clearly dubious to allocate all the rise to Brexit effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM

Following on from that though, Johnson seems to be playing the same trick again. The proposed NI rise to pay for social care and to overcome the NHS backlog is being used, rather than income tax (or, as some of us prefer, inheritance tax) because people have a perception that there is a link between NI charges and NHS funding. But any ringfencing was abandoned years ago: NI is better thought of as a very specific income tax on the employed under 60.

The false association of NI charges and NHS funding makes the increase more palatable than a rise in income tax. But it is spin, that's all, just like the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:42 AM

Johnson pontificating in the HoC just now, dropping out the same-old, same-old propaganda that the NHS’s financial problems are somehow the fault of the LP - that, of course, is the LP who last were in government eleven years ago!

When God put teeth in that deceitful PoW’s mouth, he really did waste a good arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:44 AM

I may have been too hasty in my last post. It seems Johnson has said "He says from next April there will be a new 1.25% health and social care levy, hypothecated by law"

I will have to see precisely what the law says, but for the moment, I withdraw my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:48 AM

DMcG: NI is better thought of as a very specific income tax on the employed under 60.

"Under 60"?
NI is payable until you reach State Pension age.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:59 AM

I take that correction, Nigel.

"It is an specialised form of income tax where income under a certain age is taxed, but the same level of income over that is is not. It has a deliberate bias, therefore, that taxes younger age groups more heavily than older ones."

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 09:28 AM

"It is an specialised form of income tax where income under a certain age is taxed, but the same level of income over that is is not. It has a deliberate bias, therefore, that taxes younger age groups more heavily than older ones."

Only partly true. Or rather, it appears to contain a conflation of income-level and age. NICs are payable by everyone in employment between the age of 16 and state pension age. The rate is 0% on earnings below £797/month (£184/week), then a varying rate, depending on the individuals’ NI Category, of between 2% and 12% on earnings between £797.01/month (£184.01/week) and £4.189/month (£967/week). Earnings above £4,189/month (£967/week) attract a flat rate of 2% with no upper limit.

My take on that is not so much that it hits younger age groups more heavily than older ones (except insofar as it’s usual for younger people’s pay to be lower generally than older employed people), but more that it’s regressive in that, over the £4,197/£967 upper earnings level, the rate overall is likely to be lower than on earnings below that level.

In other words, it’s not loaded specifically against younger people, but against poorer people - it protects the well-off, exactly what you’d expect of Tory tax policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 09:36 AM

And yet, all the lucky people - millions of them who received furlough pay for doing nothing since March 2020, and all the self employed who received government grants for doing less work since March 2020, may have wondered just how the £billions it all cost are going to be paid for!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 10:03 AM

You highlight another aspect of it, Backwoodsman, that I didn't, partly because I did not want to lose my point in the detail. But as I understand it, your description is right.

So another thing to watch for is whether the points at which rates change are altered. I haven't heard any rumours that they might, but it is worth keeping an eye open for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 10:07 AM

You may wish to contemplate, Bonzo, what might have happened to the country had all those "lucky" people not been treated that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 10:49 AM

We may indeed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 11:04 AM

DMcG, even if the rate banding are changed, it remains a fact that those with earnings above the higher level limit will, as their income increases, pay a lower overall rate. The question for me is, “Why should someone on e.g. £20,000 pa be taxed at a higher rate than someone on e.g. £120,000?

It’s inequitable and unjustifiable, AFAIC.

What would make more sense would be to leave NICs alone, but close some (or preferably all) of the tax loopholes which permit businesses to pretend that the bulk of their UK profits were made in a country outside the UK’s taxation jurisdiction. But we’re talking about the greedy, selfish Tories and their supporters/donors, so it ain’t gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 11:13 AM

I don't deny that inequity, BWM. I was simply pointing out that you can raise additional taxes if you keep the rates the same but change the boundaries. So while the focus is on the change in rates, it is possible that the government slips in a change in the boundaries as well, relatively unnoticed. There is also talk of taxes on things like dividends.

We will see when the legislation comes out, though as I will be on a week's break and offline, I doubt if I will get to read it until it is all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 11:16 AM

Fair comment DMcG. Have a nice break.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 01:06 PM

I know the £350,000,000 was a lie, Nigel. You know it was a lie. Enough people believed it to tip the balance in favour of brexit and I will use it as an example of gross misinformation for as long as this shower of devious lying cheats remain in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 03:02 PM

It wasn't a lie, it was advertising, and it did not say what a lot of people read it as saying.
The fact that it is frequently re-quoted, complete with the misunderstanding, does not change what was actually written on the bus.
And as I have pointed out above the NHS budgets have increased by more than the amount on the side of the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 05:21 PM

it did not say what a lot of people read it as saying

Yes, you are quite right, Nigel. Which is why I will always quote it as an example of gross missinformation. It was not a lie in the same way as my saying that it would be far better if Nigel gave up pushing cream cakes up his bum and gave them to the needy instead. Not a lie exactly but many people could well beleive that you do indulge...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 05:24 PM

Well it remains to be seen what plans, if any, the government have for social care. We will have to wait and see what they will come up with in the next few weeks. The system, or rather lack of it, does need reforming. As is usual with this country, it would appear that the government have not agreed anything with the other parties. In fact they don't appear to have consulted their own party members.

From The Guardian

How Johnson quelled Tory anger over manifesto-breaking tax rise

"Foreshadowing a tricky autumn for Johnson, a minister acknowledged anger at the prime minister from his own MPs could be at its highest level yet. “Nobody knows what the PM stands for other than winning elections, so their loyalty is only to his success,” they said. Another frontbencher said: “He’s developing very early what Margaret Thatcher did quite late on in her premiership – an inability to distinguish what is popular. He’s not as loved as he thinks he is.”


I have never been able to work out what he stands for. He seems to want to be liked by everyone and seems to say whatever it is that he thinks people want to hear. I cannot believe a word that he says. It might turn out to be true but then again it might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 05:50 PM

Stay out of the water.

Environment Agency Published 9 July 2021

Record £90m fine for Southern Water following EA prosecution

++

From The Guardian today.

"Sewage treatment chemicals have been added to the growing list of products in short supply because of the UK’s chronic lorry driver shortage, it has emerged.

The government has told wastewater plants in England and Wales they may be able to discharge effluent that had not been fully treated because of disruption caused by “supply chain failure”.

In a regulatory position statement issued on Tuesday, the Environment Agency introduced a waiver that would mean some companies would not have to go through the third stage in the treatment of sewage if they did not have the right chemicals.

The waiver relates to a feared shortage of availability of ferric sulphate, an acidic solution used to suppress the growth of algae, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) said.

It said the temporary relaxation of the rules would last until the end of the year to allow “discharges from water treatment works that cannot comply with permit conditions because of an unavoidable shortages of chemicals to treat effluent”.

A government spokesperson said the water supply to consumers would not be affected and any waste company that wished to avail of the waiver needed prior approval from Defra.

It also said that no water company had yet notified it of a shortage of ferric sulphate but it was introducing the regulatory position as a precautionary measure.

The chemicals industry is the latest in a series of sectors hit by the chronic shortage of lorry drivers caused by Brexit and the pandemic."

Sewage discharge rules eased over fears of chemical shortage

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 01:23 AM

Well it remains to be seen what plans, if any, the government have for social care

I thought Tom Peck in "The Independent" summarised it very well:

"Look, that’s not to say that raising £35bn of new taxes in the name of social care, directly from the people who can least afford to pay them, and then spending three-quarters of it on something else entirely, isn’t a moment of great national significance. Of course it is."

There is definitely a plan to raise money. How much of a plan there is beyond that remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 01:40 AM

... it did not say what a lot of people read it as saying.
....And as I have pointed out above the NHS budgets have increased by more than the amount on the side of the bus

And we have another example there, don't we Nigel? It would be so easy to misunderstand that as suggesting the increase in NHS spending has anything at all to do with the message on the bus, but you are not saying it has, are you? Or are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 02:05 AM

The NI rise seems reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 03:02 AM

How come the media are saying that NI is going up 1.25%? A rise from 12% to 13.5% is actually an increase of over 10%. Another example of right wing misinformation.

I'm lucky in that I no longer pay this because I am past pension age but it did set me off thinking about people that do not pay NI for other reasons. People who do not need to work because their income is from investments. Those who purposely keep their income low for tax purposes because they own the company. Those who live off the income from inherited property. The list goes on. This tax rise is just on working people and I hope the working class who voted for this shower now appreciate that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 04:48 AM

DMcG:
And we have another example there, don't we Nigel? It would be so easy to misunderstand that as suggesting the increase in NHS spending has anything at all to do with the message on the bus, but you are not saying it has, are you? Or are you?

No I am not making that claim. I'm just pointing out that harping on about a 'promise' which was not actually made is a bit pointless, particularly when the increase in the budget is a greater amount anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 04:55 AM

Dave the Gnome:
People who do not need to work because their income is from investments. Those who purposely keep their income low for tax purposes because they own the company. Those who live off the income from inherited property. The list goes on. This tax rise is just on working people and I hope the working class who voted for this shower now appreciate that.
Maybe you missed the associated announcement about an increase in taxation on dividends: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 06:47 AM

Andrew Fisher, writing in the Guardian:

But rather than truly fixing the causes of the social care crisis, the Conservatives seem more concerned with protecting the property rights of the wealthy and the inheritances of their children. Raising NI contributions to fund social care will mean that working-age people on median incomes will effectively pay to protect the inalienable right to inherit a home. Moreover, the effects of the social care reforms are highly unequal: how much you lose will depend on where you live.

In many parts of England, where house prices are considerably lower than in the capital, people stand to lose a much higher proportion of their wealth under the new system. For example, a person paying for care whose assets are worth £186,000 would be left with £100,000 under the new cap. If they owned £1m in assets (because they owned property in London, for example), they would be left with £914,000 under the new system. Johnson may be hoping no one notices this untidy fit with his promises to level up.

Mrs Steve and I own our home, a 4-bed detached house with a big garden in a nice part of Cornwall. It's not a "property" to us (the incessant use of that word is a big factor preventing me from watching those daft programmes about escaping to the sun/country, etc.). It's our home. So we haven't a clue what it's worth as we've been here for 34 years and take little interest in "the market." We have modest but decent incomes, no debts and some savings. So what happens if, heaven forfend, we both go into long-term care?

Well our savings would soon get used up, even taking our pension incomes into account. We would then have to sell the house, assuming that there would be no prospect of either of us moving back in. That would provide for several years of care costs, I'd assume. If one or both of us lived long enough, that would leave £23000 each in the bank and we would still have our pension income. That doesn't seem too bad to me. There's not much point in having a house we could never live in and we wouldn't want sentiment over it to oblige the state to pay for our care.

That's as things stand now. But under this new regime our lifetime care costs would be capped at £86000 each. We would manage to meet most or all of that with our savings and pensions. Then it's free forever, and the house would be sacrosanct. Our two children's inheritances are protected. I might have to remind them of that should they moan about the extra NI contributions they'll be paying.

However, if my kids were, instead, the offspring of parents with no house and savings to pass on, there would be no inheritance. Their bad luck, eh? Not their mismanagement, for sure... But they would still be paying the extra NI contributions, which would be enabling people much richer than them to keep their assets to pass down instead of using them to pay for their care. If you think that's right, then I'm absolutely not with you.

One factor I've not mentioned is one that Johnson parroted out yesterday (part of the Tory mantra), that it isn't fair that hard-working people who have worked all their lives and saved up and managed to own their homes should have to lose it, etc. etc. But he clearly thinks that people who may have been just as hard-working but who have lacked the good fortune to be in the right place at the right time (like me and Mrs Steve, what with several demutualisation handouts and three house price booms behind us) should pay extra to allow the wealthy to have the inalienable right to pass on their wealth to their kids (who didn't do all the hard work, etc., that earned that wealth).

Like I said, there's a big moral issue here, and the Tory bleating about it all I've heard in the last couple of days is no more than threadbare wallpaper with plenty of cracks showing.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 07:37 AM

A comment from a reader of the above article: "As a care worker myself, the thing I can't help but notice is that I'm effectively taking a pay cut to fund my own clients..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 08:03 AM

The £86000 is only a cap on care costs, Steve. Accommodation, food, utilities eetc are not capped. So, once again, health care is being defunded (does anyone seriously expect this rabble to make up the difference?) While the property owners can continue to make more profit.

The other thing I thought of was the employers NI contribution. That is increasing. Fine, but who will pay that increase? Big business will not allow it to impact their bottom line so they will increase prices, reduce wage costs or both. I'm not sure if we are on a double or triple whammy for the working class now.

Smoke and mirrors, half truths and blatant porkies. And still they fall for it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 08:23 AM

David The Gnome - the increase does actually affect self employed company directors too. Their employer contributions are increasing.

Plus the personal income tax on dividends is going up from 7.5% by another 1.25% so that is actually a 16% increase on the tax using your calculation type.

In fact since 2016 there has been a big difference. Prior to that there was no tax on dividends. From 2016 only the first £5,000 was tax free and 7.5% tax paid above that. That only lasted two years before the tax free exemption was reduced to the first £2,000 only. I also of course pay Corporation Tax on company profits.

I am not actually moaning at all about another tax increase - but just pointing out that your claim that we are not affected is not in fact true. In fact the increases affected me in 2016 then in 2018 and now again in 2021/22.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 08:45 AM

I picked up on that only a few minutes ago in the news, Dave. I don't get it. Does that mean that the cap doesn't include care home fees? My mum was in a residential home which, in effect, provided food and accommodation but not much else you could put your finger on. She was receiving "care," of course, but as far as I know that wasn't itemised! What precisely does the cap cover then?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 09:05 AM

That’s a good question, Steve. We’re told that ‘hotel services’ aren’t included in the £86k cap so, presumably, care homes are going to have to split out ‘hotel services’ from their weekly/monthly charge when either quoting for prospective new residents or billing existing ones.

This is going to get very interesting - pass the popcorn please!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 09:09 AM

The Hon. Member for Leeds West presently kicking the living shit out of the Tories in the debate in the HOC. Good for her!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 09:34 AM

So individuals who hold material shareholdings in trading or investment companies will have clear incentives to try and structure their returns as capital gains rather than dividend income, and should so be advised pending any further capital gains tax legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 09:57 AM

Aye I am sure there might be ways for folks to reduce the impact especially for large companies but my comment was not about moaning about the increased tax or looking for ways to avoid the increased tax. It was simply pointing out that Dave's idea that the proposed tax rises do not affect people who own their company is incorrect. In April 2016 I would pay 19% corporation tax then nothing on dividends taken. It has since gradually changed so that I currently pay 19% corporation tax and then a further 7.5% on any dividend taken above £2,000. So there has already been quite a substantial rise. Now it is to go to 8.75% on dividends over £2,000. So simply showing that Dave's assertion that it does not affect people like me is wrong. Don't mind paying the extra tax but kind of galling for folks to suggest it is not affecting me when it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 10:03 AM

I have been in that situation, Alan, and paid an accountant to do the best for me. It boiled down to paying myself a wage under the tax and NI threshold plus genuine expenses so no tax or tax increase there. I did pay didvidends so, yes, I would now have to pay more from that but as my family were all shareholders the individual dividends were never high so an increase of tax there is minimal. I never paid any corporation tax as there was never any profit. Oh, and I did collect VAT at a higher rate than I had to pay to HMRC so I did make a little on that!

As I or someone else mentioned earlier. If you are in a position to hire an accountant, you will pay less tax than the people who work hardest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 10:12 AM

...it was more than 10 years ago though so I do accept it may have changed. Bonzo will know.

Basically the company earned around £80,000. Of that I paid myself, my wife and my son minimum wage for a short work week so never paid any tax or NI on that. The accountants fees, my travelling expenses and accomodation were all taken as tax free expenses. The remainer was shared between the 3 of us as dividends and we all paid whatever the rate was at the time on that. May have been 20%. So, had I have been employed, earning £80,000 I would have paid 20% on everything between the alowance and the upper limit then 40% after that. Plus National insurance at 12%. Say £3000 lower rate. £16000 upper rate and what, £1000 NI? Total of £20000

As it happened I paid in the region of 20% on around £50000. £10000 in total. Half what I would have paid and all perfectly legal!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 10:12 AM

...final PS :-)

So I stand by my statement!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 12:05 PM

This BBC news link goes a long way to answering your question, Steve. Like everything else that bozzer touches it has turned to shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 12:59 PM

Whilst in no way wishing to excuse my misunderstanding (which led to that cock-up of a post of mine), I'm just wondering how many other people in the country think/ thought that the £86000 cap covered all care home fees...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 01:17 PM

Probably as many as thought that £350,000,000 a week was going to be given to the NHS if we left the EU :-D

This shower of shysters are masters at it so your missunderstanding is perfectly understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 03:31 PM

The cap that isn't, quite

Shades of that bus, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 03:33 PM

Sorry, I did not see that link a post or two ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 04:01 PM

Great minds and all that, Dave :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Sep 21 - 05:29 PM

We do of course use accountants. I also work as a mortgage broker and see plenty of other company director's accounts and tax returns etc. Yes there are benefits of running as a Ltd Company but the tax implications have changed enormously in the past 6 years. Yes normally directors take their wages up to the NI threshold which is below the income tax threshold too so no income tax is paid on that. Just as everyone else pays no tax on that amount also. Most companies of course make profits from which they then pay themselves dividends. Corporation Tax is paid at 19% on company profits.

As I said prior to 2016 there was then no tax paid on dividends taken. There is now only £2,000 free of income tax then you are taxed at 7.5% on dividends which you have already paid 19% corporation tax on. That 7.5% is being increased to 8.75%. It is now much less attractive to be a Ltd Company for small businesses than it was just 6 years ago. With the initial move in 2016 to make only £5K tax free; then the change 2 years later to reduce that to £2K. That is even before the new increase in rate payable.

That is not even taking into account that if you have any employees then the employer's NI rates are also increasing. Which of course adds to the cost of employing people and reduces profits in real terms.

I am not saying it is wrong that company directors, especially of small companies, have been hit over the past 6 years and are about to be hit again. I am just pointing out that the idea that they are not affected is incorrect. They have actually been affected by tax rises more than any other group of people over the past 6 years already. https://www.itcontracting.com/april-2022-dividend-tax-rise/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 04:14 AM

I'm not talking about the last 6 years though, Alan. I was only saying that the NI increase is going to hit the ordinary working person far more than others who can afford to pay more. In my situation, as confirmed by you, I earned £80000 a year yet paid no NI. A health care worker on minimum wage is hit with a 10% tax increase. Crazy! I did say that I knew that other taxes had increased but, yes, I was wrong to say a business owner would be unaffected. I now rephrase that to say that business owners have the mechanisms to minimise the impact. The fact that anyone gets their income from, for instance, rents on properties they own, pays no extra. So the Duke of Westminster pays no NI on his income whereas my daughter, cleaning at a children's care centre while she completes a degree, is hit with a tax increase. Unfair? Yes. Unexpected? Not with this lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 04:39 AM

It may have been commented on earlier in the thread, if so I apologise for repeating, but this is not a ‘1.25% increase’ as touted by the Tories, it’s a 10% increase - the current basic NIC Rate being 12.5%, and 1.25% is 10% of that basic rate.

In fact, the increase amounts to 1.25 percentage-points - not the same thing as ‘percent’, which term the Johnson Gang prefer because it sounds a smaller number.

More weasel words from Tory weasels, exactly as anyone capable of original thought would expect of them. Brings to mind those other carefully thought out weasel words on the side of a certain red bus, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 04:44 AM

I beg your pardon, the current Class A basic rate is 12%, so a 1.25 percentage-point increase is the equivalent of a 10.42 percent increase. Haven’t had my first cup of tea yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 04:52 AM

Yes, BWM. And a cap of £86000 for care costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:21 AM

Alan, you mentioned thzt the employers NI contribution is increasing. I had already brought that up and I do not believe for one instant that this will affect the bottom line. It will be paid for by either reduced wages or increased prices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:38 AM

As ever, Yorkshire Bylines hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 04:19 PM

Not that I would wish it upon anyone, but if you are ill - eg suffering from cancer, all care will be paid for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:22 PM

A letter in today's Guardian:

I have some sympathy with my fellow pensioners saying that they have already paid their whack. But there are two major caveats to that (Letters, 6 September).

First, contributions to the state pension in the 1960s and 70s were based on people living to their late 60s or 70s, not over 80, and didn’t cover social care – so we have not really paid what we are now drawing. And even my workplace pension was calculated on my living to just about 80, not considerably longer.

Second, when it comes to saying we worked hard for our houses, that is again not wholly true. Even allowing for inflation, the house bought in 1974 for £10,000 should now be worth only £107,00, not £300,000 – that is a £193,000 windfall gain. Similarly, a house bought for £250,000 in 1988 should now be worth £525,000, not selling for more than £1m.

Let’s not tax the “just getting by”, but have a wealth tax: 50p income tax on those earning over £50,000 and 60p over £100,000. And haul in those with hidden offshore assets and income, and other tax avoidance schemes.

Britain can afford decent health and social services, and to rebuild our battered economy. Now is the time for those who have profited over the last 40 years to pay up.

So cards on the table here. I'm a classic boomer. I bought a house on the edge of Epping Forest in 1978 for £14,750 and sold it for £62,500 eight short years later. So I bought a house in Cornwall in 1986 (this one) for £82,000. Twenty years ago it was valued at £400,000 but we didn't sell it and we're still here, so God knows what it's worth now. The biggest mortgage I ever had was £55,000. That was paid off ten years ago. For the last few years of it, months before the financial crash, I got a fix that had us paying next to no interest on it. Mrs Steve and I were both teachers, now long-retired on "gold-plated" final salary pensions. Mrs Steve, poor thing, had to wait seven whole months after her sixtieth birthday to get her state pension. I got mine at the new rate on my 65th birthday. In the last decade or three we've had a number of handouts from various demutualisation schemes, and I was canny enough to get much of our savings into safe fixed-rate schemes paying four percent or more (not these days any more, of course, though we still have two five-year fixed ISAs at 2.3%).

I have never used an accountant and I have never taken any risks on the stock market, etc., as I don't regard myself as a clever enough chap with finances. Until recently I used to find the good deals on the inside back page of the Guardian, though now I can find out online where the best safe place is to put the dough that I have. When we first got married, Thatcher and Howe made sure that interest rates were sky-high and we struggled for a while, but, of course, massive inflation and the next house price boom soon fixed that.

Are we part of the Golden Generation? Well Mrs Steve and I both think we are. Boomers who fell into decent jobs (which wasn't too hard) were in the right place at the right time by sheer good fortune. Everything has gone right for us. We are now "economically inactive," as they say, and the vicissitudes of life such as austerity and coronavirus scarcely touch us economically. In fact, because Mrs Steve and I haven't been able to go on our couple of foreign holidays a year for the last two years, we've got richer. Not for us the insecurities of furlough, zero-hours or the threat of unemployment. Not for us the sheer impossibility for most young people of getting on "the housing ladder." We've bloody cracked it, we have. But the thing is that we've cracked it mostly by dint of sheer good luck. Which is why it sticks in my craw to hear Boris bleating about the God-given rights of "people who have worked hard all their lives to buy their houses and save up", etc., to pass their fortunes down to their undeserving offspring. They got those fortunes by good luck and because we have an incredibly unequal society. When we boomers die, all that dough should go BACK to society, not to the kids who never lifted a finger to earn it in the first place.

If that makes me a bloody leftie, well that's grand! But I'm a well-off leftie, mostly down to sheer good luck. Do I feel guilty? Yep. Will I give my money away? Er...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:23 PM

By the time I'd typed all that shite, today's Guardian became yesterday's Guardian. Wouldn't want youse searching in vain... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 03:27 AM

Steve - I had to smile at the part in the letter that said they bought a house for £10,000 in 1974. That was the year we bought our first house and it was £950 :-)

Two up two down in Walkden. It had a small bathroom upstairs but the lavvy was still downstairs and would have been outside if not for the fact that a lean to kitchen had been put on the back. Sort of...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 03:33 AM

Bonzo - I know what you mean but you are not quite right. Both my Mother and Father went into care with dementia that was not NHS funded but local authority. Both times were means tested and, had they have had any assets, they would have been taken into account. That is also something that needs to be addressed as there is inequality in funding some illnesses and not others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 06:30 AM

With the contributions cap it looks like care corporations have been given the green light to hike their charges at the tax-payers expense. Does that mean that the government will fully reimburse local arthrotomes that choose to do the same to close care budget deficits? The other question I have about the NI increase is will this apply above the UEL, or proportionally hit those earning below the threshold?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 06:32 AM

In other words, will the rate increase from 2% to 3.5%?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 06:38 AM

You 'ad 'ouse in Wogdin, Dave?? You were lucky...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 07:37 AM

It were lovely. On top of an 'ill and tha could see reet over t' th'acme in Swinton.

SPB - We covered that earlier and think it might but it was left undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 01:10 PM

Wonderful news from Pakistan:

Operation Ark is finally over Pen Farthing has confirmed that the Nowzad staff team & dependents are now in Islamabad Pakistan under care British High Commission & will soon be on way to join the animals in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 07:24 AM

to considerably widen the thread perspective here - and with reference to northernness or not on the 'our emma' thread - here's a quote from william the conqueror included in 'Book of Trespass' by Nick Hayes that i'm currently reading - the year after Harold fell orf his 'orse, William commenced a campaign titled 'The Harrying of the North'

- 'in mad fury i descended on the english of the north like a raging lion, and ordered that their homes and crops with all their equipment and furnishings should be burnt at once and their great flocks and herds of sheep and cattle slaughtered everywhere. So i chastised a great multitude of men and women with the lash of starvation and, alas! was the cruel murderer of many thousands, both young and old, of this fair people.'

- Alas indeed! I'd thoroughly recommend the book - it convincingly develops the argument that the owners of the land, the enclosures, the obscene greed and cruelty of our class system endures to this day in only slightly amended form.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 05:46 AM

A severe tragedy has just befallen me. I've just discovered that our new Culture Secretary, Nadine Dorries, is a Liverpool fan.


...Pause for a moment's silence...


And no, I wasn't trying to make a joke by putting "Nadine Dorries" and "culture" in the same sentence...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 07:06 AM

yes, i feel your unease...i had a similar experience when i learned that david cameron and his wife had enjoyed a gillian welch and dave rawlings gig in london, days after i'd seen them in manchester and thought it was a great gig. now, my memory of that night is tarnished. these people have no right to enjoy the finer things in life - they should just stop in and count their money, chortling over the whining of the little people whose miseries they enjoy, devising new ways to screw everything up for their own gains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 05:54 PM

Bloody hell, Bonzo, Question Time is coming from Croydon! Are you in the audience? Am I looking for a man with three legs (or is that just your braggadocio...?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 06:16 PM

By the way, I was in the Question Time audience twenty years ago at the Eden Project. The panel was that LibDem bloke whose name I can't recall, who lost everything when he was exposed for using rent-boys, Margaret f*****g Hodge, Shami Chakrabarti and Liam f*****g Fox. I actually got to ask a question from the floor and three million people saw me asking it. 2,999,998 people forgot all about it within seconds. I had a terrible cold and I only stuck my hand up because my son wouldn't stop nudging me to do so. (it was about whether we should have an elected House of Lords - wake up there at the back!). I recorded it on a DVD (remember those?), which I can no longer play on anything I have!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 06:23 PM

USB DVD Rom players - less than 20 quid...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 06:39 PM

I'll look into it...technophobe that I am... I can't even do these bloody links on this website....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 07:36 PM

You'd get a new DVD player on Amazon for about £25 and Blue Ray players should work with DVDs. Are you sure you don't mean VCR?

We've still got a working VCR in the living room. There is also one that my PC monitor stands on but I doubt if it still works.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 21 - 07:43 PM

Begod, Jon, you're absolutely right. Not DVD... those massive great big cassette jobs is wot I meant...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Sep 21 - 02:06 AM

Google ‘transfer VCR tapes to DVD’. There will almost certainly be small businesses within driving distance who do that for you - there’ll be a charge, I think I paid eight quid a tape, but it was a good few years ago. We had all our VCR tapes (including our wedding, and my old R&R band playing the Millennium Mega-bash at Scunthorpe Baths Hall) transferred to DVD.

A Blu-ray player should play DVDs OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 21 - 02:12 AM

Someone local will be able to digitise it for you, Steve. Look it up on th'interweb

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 21 - 04:52 AM

Cheers, chaps. I'll explore, though whether my 30-second burst on QT is worth paying £8+ for... Worse, the camera panned round to Margaret f*****g Hodge who was smiling and enthusiastically agreeing with me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 21 - 07:57 PM

Well call me Mr Simplistic, but we have masses of empty shelves in the shops, we have a massive crisis regarding gas prices and supply, we can't get the lorry drivers needed to deliver the goods, we have a severe shortage of carbon dioxide which is threatening the food chain and quite likely seeing off the chances of getting a Christmas turkey...or chicken...or a ham....

Wasn't this a bit like wot Soviet Russia was like 40 years ago? Will Bozo get away with it? Well who knows...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 21 - 08:15 PM

no, Soviet Russia, apparently had other advantages such as very cheap travel throughout Moscow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 21 - 05:02 AM

Also, I have been told that many farmers are considering limiting their crops next year to what they can harvest. Why should they pay the costs of planting, fertilizing etc etc more than they can be confident of harvesting? From a business point of view, it makes financial sense for them to plant less. Not good for the country, of course, but better for them individually.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 21 - 06:38 AM

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside”
David Davis, Brexit Minister,
10 October 2016.

On the face of it, Mr Davis seems to have been lying, does he not? Who would have thought it, a Brexiteer telling a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 03:35 AM

Politicians frequently lie it would seem. which contributes to people deciding to take direct action, like the protesters on the m25 , i hope they disrupt the lives of people who support the present status quo in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 03:53 AM

i think it would be wonderful if all of the conservative front bench jumped in front of cars on the m25 and got run down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 04:02 AM

Sad thing is, Dick, a lot of people thought voting to leave the EU was a protest against the status quo. They were conned of course but to give them a bit of solace, they were conned by the masters of misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 05:41 AM

Much as I dislike the Conservative front bench (and back benches, come to that) I would not wish on them any physical harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 06:31 AM

My feelings too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 06:34 AM

Come to think of it, I had similar qualms when one or two otherwise reasonably rational Mudcat yanks were wishing Trump dead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 07:13 AM

Seems that there is to be no trade deal with the US. I am relieved that we will not have to lower standards and sell off the NHS but it is yet another Brexit promise that cannot be fulfilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 07:20 AM

Peter Brookes in The Times today, finger on the pulse, as usual!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 07:21 AM

Pray tell us more details of this non-existent trade deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 07:54 AM

So Starmer, the Labour "leader" who has been so abysmal in taking up cudgels with the clown who is pretending to be running the county (lessee...no trade deal...empty shelves...where are the lorries...gas crisis...NI border issue totally unresolved...allies we couldn't get out of Afghanistan now put in peril by a stupid email blunder...allowing Priti Patel to be in charge of anything at all... All that and more on top of the multitudinous balls-ups regarding coronavirus...) is now blatantly trying to marginalise all but his own crony factions by changing the rules on leadership elections. If he thinks that's the way to party unity he's in cloud cuckoo land. Johnson gets away with yet another incompetent bungle just about every other day, but Starmer is showing no response worthy of the term.

One more heave after the next election then, lads? I did try to tell you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 09:02 AM

Here you go, Rain Dog

Britain’s hopes of early post-Brexit trade deal with US appear dashed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 11:15 AM

Not wishing harm on tory politicians...???
I'm not as wimpy and squeamish...

ok.. compromise..


I wish they all get severe thrombosed hemorrhoids..

How hard are the benches in Parliament...???

That'd make PM questions sessions more satisfying to watch...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 12:09 PM

They do enough squirming as it is!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 12:40 PM

But that squirming is usually more painfull for us than them..

Oh and I'll also wish they get chronic inflamed rashes on their groins
way more uncomfortable than their traditional tory vice contracted STDs...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 01:40 PM

Just watching Angela Raynor lay into the Tories. She needs to take over from Sir Keith. Can you wish a non serious complaint that will put him out of the commons for a few months PFR? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 02:17 PM

My nan used to read Tea leaves..

So I just might have inherited the dark pagan Powers of Scrumpyshire council estate witchcraft...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 03:32 PM

You might be surprised to hear that I completely agree with you, Dave. She was phenomenal during PMQs, grilling Voldemort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 04:31 PM

"Politicians frequently lie it would seem. which contributes to people deciding to take direct action, like the protesters on the m25 , i hope they disrupt the lives of people who support the present status quo in the UK"

I'm not sure that people delayed in getting to hospital appointments by that scum would agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 04:53 PM

Whichever side of the Brexit debate you stand on one bit of good news is that due to Brexit and other problems, pyrotechnic suppliers say they will be down on supplies by 70%. Yay!!

Not 100%.... yet, but a 70% decrease is still quieter for our hounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 04:56 PM

Why are they scum, Bonzo? Surely you can support non-violent protest, or shall we become a totalitarian state?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 05:51 PM

I'm a lefty eco advocate..

.. but would agree those over persistent motorway disruption protesters
are a bunch of sanctimonious self-indulgent anti-social middle-class pillocks...

Prison may be a tad harsh, but asbos and and electronic tagged house arrest
would be very justified.

They are no more above the law than any of the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 06:19 PM

Above the law? We're talking about a government who illegally prorogued parliament, who have put lives in Afghanistan in danger, who supported Blair in his murderous Iraq campaign, I mean, don't get me started! These guys have a valid issue, they are sticking their heads above the parapet, they are non-violent, and, sure, they're causing inconvenience... Well so were those striking dockers, firemen, miners, schoolworkers, Black Lives Matter, Extinction Rebellion, the guys who tore down that bloody racist statue...We live in a country where you are laughingly ignored unless you stick your neck out and make yourself bloody unpopular with the unthinking, stinking, indignant Tory masses. I hope you don't think that the best way to get attention is to write polite letters to the Guardian...

Steve (long-time neck sticker-outerer, multiply-threatened leftie, good mate of the best action man I ever met, the murdered Blair Peach...)

And you can always make laws up as you go along. "It's illegal to put your vulnerable human flesh and blood on a piece of tarmac in order to inconvenience gas-guzzling, polluting, environment-wrecking internal combustion-driven behemoths..." Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 21 - 06:58 PM

..so what about all the backed up stationary traffic
keeping their engines turning over pumping out toxic exhaust fumes...???

These road protesters are self defeating showboating pillocks,
and their immature 'student politics' tactics are a liability for our/their cause...

..and remember I am a lifelong militant cyclist/pedestrian/public transport advocate...

These middle class eco twats are a free gift for jeremy clarkson
and his pernicious dominant petrol head culure warriors...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 01:24 AM

E10 petrol - so far so good, that combined with a new timing belt makes my 2003 Nissan Micra go like a bomb as we used to say - beat an expensive Audi away from lights yesterday !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 02:41 AM

Middle class eco twats?

Are they all middle class, PFR? Even if they are, what is wrong with that? Are the middle class not allowed to protest against the destruction of our planet?

Sorry, but this kind of reverse snobbery does you no favours. The only us and them should be between those doing all the taking and the rest of us who are having our assets stripped and our environment ruined. Not everyone who cares lives on a council estate and the working class don't provide all the heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:04 AM

Pfr normally mentions 'middle class twats' once per post. I am never too sure how serious/funny he is being when he does so. He does seem to like winding people up.

Worth a listen


Micky Flanagan: What Chance Change?

You want to be a van driver?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:07 AM

My biggest concern about the M25 protests is that they will alienate people rather than persuading people to be more concerned about the environment. If people are prevented from doing things they regard as important - going to work, getting to weddings, attending hospital appointments - it is likely to make them want to disassociate themselves from the protesters, not join them. This is similar to Extinction Rebellion losing public sympathy quite dramatically when they stopped a tube train at Canning Town which they later thought was a mistake.

Yes, they have got themselves into the news internationally, but have they succeeded in making people change their behaviour? Even worse, have they made some change it for the worse because they don't want to be associated with such actions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:17 AM

On the business of laws, by the way. We have in Priti Patel someone who needs little excuse to introduce laws limiting liberties. This action has given her the perfect excuse to introduce one - with a lot of public support - which will be to hand for every protest about anything from now on. It has severely restricted their future protests, but also everyone elses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:45 AM

I know, Rain Dog, but one good chain rattle deserves another :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 04:02 AM

I know very well a lot of posters here are not going to like Starmer's paper at all, but to my mind it is written for only one major purpose: to address the charge "no one knows what Labour/Starmer stand for."   You may well not like the answer he has given, but I think it goes a good way towards answering that charge. Many points in his position are open to interpretation, but so are all similar political statements of stance.

He will have to defend and elaborate each of his ten principles from those further left in the party and from the Tories, but at least these is now greater clarity of what those principles are. To that extent, I think it a significant step forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 06:25 AM

Or, to quote Grouch Mark:

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them . . . well, I have others!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 07:35 AM

"..so what about all the backed up stationary traffic
keeping their engines turning over pumping out toxic exhaust fumes...???"

Well they could TURN THEIR BLOODY ENGINES OFF!! Are they thick or something?

As for "alienating people," tell me of a public protest or demo that DOESN'T alienate. The idea is to make people sit up and take notice. Generally, that in one way or another is going to alienate people. And we have things like the Mail and the Sun, whippers-up-in-chief of confected outrage... I ask you again: is the right way to protest writing polite letters to the Guardian? Or maybe putting up petitions on Change.org that no-one takes any notice of? Or hire-a-celeb (Marcus is rather busy just now...)?? The very idea that non-violent protesters might be thrown in jail for sitting on a road is truly the thin end of a very worrying wedge... we've been forcing people to wear masks...we've been telling families they can't go into their loved ones' homes...we're telling care workers on the minimum wage that they'll lose their jobs unless they submit to vaccination...I wasn't allowed by law to sit with my ill and deaf mother for the last months of her life...we're threatening to turn back innocent people on unsafe dinghies mid-Channel... We should all be bloody worried.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 08:40 AM

As for "alienating people," tell me of a public protest or demo that DOESN'T alienate. The idea is to make people sit up and take notice. Generally, that in one way or another is going to alienate people

Well, yes. Any protest will alienate some and attract others. Your goal is to attract as many as possible and alienate as few as possible, so that after the protest you end up in a stronger position than before, not a weaker one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 09:23 AM

DMcG - Well.. you definitely get it...

As for any football loving eco lefties..

They ought to understand the concept of "own goals"...???


.. and armchair conspiracy theorists can consider the methods
how tory govt and it's dominant media culture
can so easily manipulate silly useful idiot puppet eco road stunt protesters...???

It's a key winning tory strategy, always has been, to marginalise and dismiss progressive resistance
by making the mass public believe we are all such loony lefties and dopey hippy tree huggers...


As a consequence..

patel get's enhanced powers, and boris can now posture on the world stage
that he and his 'sensible' govt are the only 'true' eco saviours to be taken seriously...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 09:27 AM

Well how do you assess that? And I note that "alienate" is now the buzzword of the week. Even Ed Miliband was at it on the one o'clock news...

Let the protesters worry about their tactics. My point is that non-violent protests should not be met with violence or threats of prison. That's China, Russia and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 10:31 AM

My point is that non-violent protests should not be met with violence or threats of prison. That's China, Russia and the US.

Yes, but how then do you stop the protests?

Or do you believe that the civil liberties of the protesters are more important than the liberties of drivers who wish to go about their daily business?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 11:02 AM

It's a thin line between 'non violent' protest,
and 'passive aggressive' extremely provocative antagonistic protest...

.. That's such a sneaky childish school playground tactic to deliberately wind up other kids
to the point of such anger they strike the first blow..

"So let's go out obstructing busy traffic and deliberately provoking ordinary folks into acts of road rage against poor defensless innocent us;
so we can play the victim of bullying and claim the moral high ground"...

No.. you just look like sanctimonious spoilt twats putting yours and other lives in potential danger...!!!

Remember the green cross code, don't play silly buggers on busy roads...
At least back in the day, Swampy and his tree climbing and tunnel digging protest movement
could still retain some public sympathy and support...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 11:15 AM

Have you been on the M25, PFR? It's like that most of the time anyway!

Give us your methods for protesting and we can see if they might work any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 11:39 AM

For a start, 'real' lefties should seriously consider
the back-firing damage they cause our movement
by persistently conforming to alienating stereotypes which keep us out of power...

Understand and know our tory enemy.
If it helps, to dress and look like them as a confusion tactic.
New labour made the mistake of dressing up in expensive suits and ties..

Personally I look and talk like the kind of ordinary bloke in the street
who might read tory newspapers and support UKIP.
That's not an elaborate constructed disguise,
I've always looked like that.

(Apart from a few days when I was a student and had purple hair,
after getting drunk at a party with a Bristol punk band)..

Pass undetected mingling with the enemy
engaging as much as possible in constructive rational conversation.

We only shoot ourselves in the feet if all we can do is browbeat and lecture folks with textbook ideology
from on high,
looking down on them
from a crumbling ivory tower vantage pulpit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 11:53 AM

Spot-on, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 11:57 AM

.. errmm..

Ok full disclosure..

I'll confess I'd mentally blocked
the few years I spent as a postgrad ideology student, with a completely shaved head
except for a warrior top knot like Taras Bulba..

Those were my lost years as an ineffectual very loony laughing-stock textbook lefty...!!!

Lessons were painfully learnt...
.. and feet eventually placed very firmly back on the ground...

Remembering my roots..
I'm the son of a council estate factory trades unionist, and care home cleaner..
I'll leave the fancy dress protest charades to more comfortably well-off and socially connected 'progressives'...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 12:12 PM

We are living in strange times.

From the BBC

Ministers prepare for worst in gas price crisis


"BBC has been told that ministers believe the current system for managing the failure of energy companies, which allows companies to recoup losses through an industry-wide levy, is working satisfactorily, even though it will add costs to millions of customers' bills.

Our business editor says ministers do accept that the existing system of reallocating customers would not work if one of the bigger challenger firms went bust.

In that case, the government has the power to appoint a special administrator, in what would be a quasi-temporary nationalisation."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 12:58 PM

quasi-temporary nationalisation?

A what? A temporary quasi-nationalisation I could understand. Or is quasi-temporary like income tax, which was supposed to be temporary, and we all know how that turned out.

Perhaps Nigel is needed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 01:52 PM

"That's such a sneaky childish school playground tactic to deliberately wind up other kids
to the point of such anger they strike the first blow..

"So let's go out obstructing busy traffic and deliberately provoking ordinary folks into acts of road rage..."

This is a flawed argument. On the whole, the aggressors are not "ordinary folks." They're the police, the agents of the state, who generally act under orders. One more thing: a bunch of protesters sitting on tarmac is not putting lives in danger. They are not carrying guns or swords or tasers and they are not driving tons of wheeled metal at high speed. So who is really, if anyone, putting lives in danger in those demos? Let's avoid the Daily Mailist arguments, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 02:25 PM

"On the whole, the aggressors are not "ordinary folks." They're the police, the agents of the state, who generally act under orders. One more thing: a bunch of protesters sitting on tarmac is not putting lives in danger. They are not carrying guns or swords or tasers and they are not driving tons of wheeled metal at high speed.

'Tons of wheeled metal' running up the back-end of a line of traffic, stopped on a motorway because 'a bunch of protestors' are sitting in the carriageway, is highly likely to result in someone, probably several someones, being killed or seriously injured.

You should talk to my brother-in-law, who was a traffic-cop in the Cambridgeshire Constabulary - you know, one of those 'aggressors' and 'agents of the state' of yours who, 'acting on orders', have to go and pick up the pieces of human remains and wash away the blood at the scenes of RTAs, and then go to break the news of someone's gruesome death to their devastated relatives, make cups of tea for them, sit with them, hold them as they scream and fall apart. He has some 'interesting' stories to tell. So 'interesting' he's been unable to work as a public-facing police officer for the past three years because of his PTSD, brought to a head when he was one of the first two officers on-scene at the Toronto city-centre van attack, when 10 people were killed and 16 critically injured.

For someone who thinks he knows more about everything than everybody, you really are bit of a thoughtless prick, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 02:27 PM

Steve - No.. first and foremost there are blindingly obvious objective arguements
which the Mail culture war wanks appropriate, distort, and try to monopolise
as good right wing common sense...

Road protesters cannot know who they going to obstruct and delay,
or how vital, or life and death, their journeys may be...

Selfish pricks...

What if I needed to get to my mum's death bed in the nick of time,
and these self indulgent tits were blocking roads along the way...???

.. how justifiably angry would I feel.. and these fukwits are on my own side...!!!???

Remember I live in a polarised area of Scrumpyshire dominated by tories and smug well off Glastonbury hippy sjw arseholes..

The working class have always been a deplored and denigrated underclass
round these ways...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 02:46 PM

Possible solution to tbe haulage problem in the UK and beyond? (Though it will take the best part of 3 years)

Moving the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:20 PM

"Remember I live in a polarised area of Scrumpyshire dominated by tories and smug well off Glastonbury hippy sjw arseholes..

The working class have always been a deplored and denigrated underclass
round these ways...

.. round here we have to constantly put up with
two distinct middle class elitist cultures looking down on us...

.. and permanent safe seat tory MPs...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:31 PM

A road traffic accident is not the same as coming up against an obstruction caused by protesters and there would not be the same element of the unexpected if you were unlucky enough to encounter one. By the way, I passed my driving test 53 years ago and one golden rule learned from my dad (who taught me to drive) I've never forgotten is that if you ram into someone from behind IT'S YOUR FAULT EVERY TIME. Not the guy in front, no matter what unexpected or capricious thing he did, not a protester, not a cow on the road... As I said, the Daily Mailism don't cut it here. By the way, I haven't been rude to you, so consider desisting from the name-calling (which tends to make you look a little like a loser...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:45 PM

You can't fend off other lefties who disagree with you
by accusing them of 'daily mailism'...

.. that don't cut it here...

Do road protesters keep a fast lane open for essential and emergency workers,
let alone ordinary folks with problems and stresses who need to get somewhere else important in a hurry...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 03:47 PM

.. btw.. are you 70 or 17...???

It's hard to tell from your overhyped pre-fab rhetoric...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 04:24 PM

Don't you bloody start.

When the miners went on strike in the early 70s (fully justified in m'humble), which precipitated the three-day week, they didn't go all nicey-nicey to protect old people from freezing to death. Because it wasn't their fault that they were forced to take action. During the winter of discontent (when public sector workers finally snapped after years of cuts in services and lousy pay) it wasn't the gravediggers' fault that corpses went unburied or the binmen's fault that mountains of rubbish piled up in the streets. Greenhouse gas emissions are still going ballistic. All we've had is bloody talk. We have a clown running the country who has tried to divert attention away from the shocking state of this country by coming the statesman with fine speeches telling the world that it's time we grew up when it comes to climate change. Boris Johnson (I won't insult children by calling him childish) telling us to grow up. Well, well. So the world heads inexorably for burning times because we can't wean ourselves off fossil fuels, yet you whinge about protesters who actually impede the use of fossil fuels to make their point...Good grief...Talk about riding the establishment horse...

And actually Greta Thunberg isn't much past seventeen. I'm with her every time. So that insult don't wash either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 04:36 PM

.. yebut.. it's 2021 now...

.. and I do sincerely hope youthful iconic figurehead Greta
matures into a more poweful adult campaigner,
who can be even more politically effective than she already is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 05:55 PM

Hey, Dick, don't stoop to BWM's level! ;-)

Greta is a damn sight more mature than most of the dissembling bloody adults who speechify their bloody platitudes about man-made global heating. Never was it more apt to speak of more heat than light...yet we get all hoity-toity about people who take direct, non-violent action to highlight the terrible climate crisis we're in. Gosh, how you'll feel for those poor M25 drivers who got so horribly inconvenienced when we are, in a decade or two's time, in a world full hundreds of millions of refugees...Bangladesh, population 163 million...mean altitude of most of them one metre above sea level... maybe those indignant M25 drivers have houses big enough to take a couple of dozen of them each...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 06:12 PM

've never forgotten is that if you ram into someone from behind IT'S YOUR FAULT EVERY TIME. Not the guy in front, no matter what unexpected or capricious thing he did

A very good rule of thumb, but of course there are still the odd exceptions.

I was following a car with a trailer at a roundabout around a decade ago. He decided to go, then changed his mind, and stopped abruptly. I stopped several feet behind him. The guy behind me also stopped with a couple of feet gap. Then someone behind him failed to stop, hit his car, shunted it forward into mine, and mine forward into the trailer. Some crumpling of the front of my car, but the trailer got away with a cracked light cover.

The insurance companies, police and indeed everyone else, declared the final driver the only one responsible.

Now of course you could argue if I had left an extra foot it would have prevented the crumpling and rear light damage. But none of the people I mentioned - drivers, police, insurance - thought my positioning at fault in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 08:31 PM

.. you do get worked up talking presumptious bollocks about other mudcatters at times...

Mr ooh I might sound a bit daily mail [but I'm not really] mask objector...

Well.. hello..

I'm mr ooh I might sound a bit daily mail [but I'm not really] road protest objector...


I might be having a bit of a chuckle generalising with sterotypes,
but chances are I'm more than likely right
about the social demographic specifics of so many eco protesters...

Bloody affluent big city hippy new agers been invading and buying up all the best homes in Scrumpyshire since Glasto Festival
went part of the corporate / aristo social calender..
Coinciding with when thatcher started selling off all the good quality local council social housing...

I remember in the early 70s when we had just one friends of the earth family sending kids to our school.
They were an even rarer novelty than catholics and Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 21 - 09:23 PM

" I don't recall your outrage about the tens of thousands of little old ladies that this government, in effect, murdered in the early stages of this pandemic..."

.. well some of your memory outages are checkable...
.. so for your information as a memory jogger..

I was one of the first mudcatters venting my angry suspicions
the tories were inclined to use covid as an oportunist method
of culling expensive pensioners,
as well as killing off frontline teachers they despicably malign as marxist feminist brainwashers of young boys...

I still suspect I was fairly spot on...???

Do I have to list all my outrages on all topics for your approval
every time I check in at mudcat...?????

Nah.. don't think so...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 02:38 AM

‘A system on its last legs’: NHS forced to deny chemotherapy for cancer patients

I am not sure why this appears in the backwaters of the 'Health' pages rather than more prominently, but there you are.

As I commented in the article's thread, I am particularly interested in why the Trust thought it worth spending "hundreds of thousands of pounds applying for Magnet status from the American Nurses’ Credentialing Center."

What is that all about, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 03:50 AM

I really love my Daily Mail. I like the puzzles (keeps me quiet, a real bonus for my husband) the horoscope and the letters page. There's a giant cryptic crossword on Saturdays. My posh, clever sister has the Times, and does that crossword in a few minutes, which is quite an achievement.
I also vote Conservative, and I like Boris. I feel sorry that he's had such an awful lot to cope with, but I approve of what he's achieved so far.
But I wouldn't say I'm a troll. And I respect anyone's opinion. It pains me to read the unkind, vituperative comments here and the in-fighting, insults and skirmishes. I like a friendly, funny and respectful sort of discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 04:15 AM

Right wing does not equal troll, Eliza. Purposely winding people up and causing dissent does.

FWIW, my best friend is a Tory. We have agreed to disagree. I have never espoused, like some, that Tories are evil. Just sadly mistaken. However I don't understand your liking for Boris. Not even other Tories like him. He is a prime example of a lying, cheating product of privilege. I agree that he has had a lot on his plate with Covid. No-one could have envisaged that. As for the rest, well. He was a prime mover in conning people into believing that Brexit would be marvelous with no down sides. He is now reaping what he sowed but, sadly, so are the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 06:01 AM

Dunno.. I've been displaced in limbo between working and middle class cultures
since I was torn from my council estate environment and bussed to Grammar School
for social gentrification...?????

.. What that process didn't equip me with was the essential family contacts network,
and property inheritances, that could elevate me even anywhere near the higher levels of glass ceilings...

If I hadn't passed the 11 plus I might have had my own White Van tradesman business
and bought an ex council house on the estate,
might even have had a tribe of kids and grandkids, and a staffy bull terrier..
..instead of ending up a skint unemployable arty farty bolshie non conformist lefty
in a dilapidated terraced house in a run down town centre...???


Wot.. me envious I never had an affluent well connected family and public school education...

Advantages necessary for a modern career in the British folk music industry...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 06:14 AM

Seventeen arrests have been made this morning after Insulate Britain blockaded the Port of Dover, just days after they were told they face jail if they shut down the M25 again.

Orange-bibbed activists campaigning for the government to insulate all houses in the UK have sat across the entrance and exit to Europe's busiest ferry port.

Insulate Britain block Port of Dover after M25 injunction

PS

I have not been paid for posting this link as the contract remains to be signed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 06:40 AM

I never had an affluent well connected family and public school education

And you think I did?

Born to a Polish immigrant manual worker and a shop girl in a two up two down terraced house with no bathroom. After they pulled that down, lived on council estates until I married and bought a two up two down terraced house with an upstairs bath but the toilet was downstairs and only inside by virtue of the fact that someone had built a lean to next to it. Educated in catholic primary and secondary modern. Went to 6th form but dropped out after 3 months. I didn't even get to university like some I could mention...

But let's not get into the four Yorkshiremen sketch :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 07:51 AM

Oh, BTW, I passed the 11 plus with flying colours but the local Catholic grammar (De La Salle) didn't want me. Mind you, cheating on my homework at primary may have had something to do with that. I should have tried for Eton... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 08:10 AM

I passed the 11 plus with flying colours but the local Catholic grammar (De La Salle) didn't want me

We had something similar with my daughter. No-one from her Catholic primary school had sat the 11+ for decades, but almost everyone did from the Anglian school round the corner. We were told if she sat the 11+ and passed, all well and good, but if she sat it and failed, the Catholic senior school would not offer her a place.

It was not quite that blunt, of course. We had to rank our preferences for senior school, and it was explained if the Catholic senior school was not in first place, they would be sufficiently subscribed that with first choices and second choices, anyone putting them third did not stand a chance. So if you put both of the local grammar schools before it, you would not get in.   Put a grammar in first place, and the Catholic in second, and the grammar over subscribed? That's quite a gamble; you might or might not get in. Put the Catholic school in first place, and you would get in, but there was no point in taking the 11+

Very manipulative, I thought. But they did not know my daughter's determination. She went and took the 11+ in the Anglican school (without most of the practise they had had); passed, and got the Grammar school of her choice. In subsequent years, there were always a few who did the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 08:24 AM

There were two of us who in the first year of secondary school (1964) were interviewed for what was effectively a "12+". Neither of us were deemed suitable grammar school material. The other lad, Mick Robinson, went on to play rugby for England schoolboys. I think De La Salle, a keen RL school, regretted their decision about Mick!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 08:52 AM

I doubt it Dave, Tony Neary was at the school at the time and the furture captain of England under 15's was in my class around 1969/70.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 10:04 AM

I was once in the Thornleigh cricket team that beat De La Salle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 10:15 AM

I'm the only one from my old gang of 4 or more close Grammar mates
who came from a council estate..
That was a stigma I had to deal with at such a snobby school in the early 70s..

We were the arty farty clique who didn't follow sensible traditional career paths..

I was the only one of us who didn't benefit from inheriting hundreds of thousands in my 40s/50s,
to provide a much needed comfy foundation for older age...

My parents were principled working class lefties
who believed in social housing.
and rejected all offers/persuasion to buy their council home..

That's why my mum had a stable good quality home for half a century
until social services put her in a care facility recently during lockdown.

The first wave of sold off right to buy homes on the estate
didn't remain in the purchasers hands for too long,
because the estate factory cruely closed down suddenly
leaving many unable to afford their new mortgages...

Can only guess what those houses with big gardens might be worth now...???

It's a tory dominated town, and building new social replacement homes
doesn't seem to have been too high on the agenda
since the 1980s...

A limited few blocks of flats did get built after right to buy
removed too many decent family council houses from the estate,
but they soon enough turned into squalid sink holes for youngsters
with serious problems that became more the norm
after so long of thatcher in power......

Reinforcing the popular media prejudices of 'nightmare' council tenants...
which is now essential propaganda for promoting 'affordable' over 'social' new homes..

Yep, even Labour goes along with that cynical voter bait..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 11:35 AM

I never had an affluent well connected family and public school education

And you think I did?"


btw...

any smug comfily retired old folkies with the powers of mind reading and fortelling the future,
should have seen I couldn't resist that cheeky little wind up...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 12:12 PM

And so why do we have unnecessary queues at the very few petrol stations open today? I took my wife's (our!!!) Qashqai to top up the petrol this afternoon - stupidly at Friday school leaving time, and both of our nearest garages had all the pumps taped up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 12:20 PM

Yep, empty shelves in the shops, NHS gone to the dogs, lorry drivers gone, no petrol, Christmas threatened (again) - welcome to Soviet-Tory-Union Britain!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 12:58 PM

Bonzo, all those other motorists no doubt popped out to top up their fuel, cursing all the other selfish drivers while they did so.

Don't panic! Does that phrase ever work?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 01:27 PM

The best way to engender panic buying is a government minister telling us not to panic buy. They never learn, do they?

I remember way back in the 70s when we had a petrol shortage. The fuel gauge on our Morris Minor had completely packed up and (as we both used the car) we never had a clue how much juice there still was in the tank. On one occasion I was mortally embarrassed when I went to fill the tank and could fit just over half a gallon in there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 02:42 PM

any smug comfily retired old folkies with the powers of mind reading and fo5rtelling the future,
should have seen I couldn't resist that cheeky little wind up...!!!

Then surely any council estate armchair warrior with nothing better to do should have seen the Pythonesque return. Even mentioned it by name

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 06:44 PM

I wasn't aware there was a diesel shortage in Ireland, there certainly isn't one where I live.

Just saying like ....................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 08:13 PM

Don't panic - no problems...!!!

Have govt informed schools something the media haven't been truthfully told yet...

Mrs Pfr came home tonight saying regional heads have messaged all local school staff to prepare for fuel crisis;
and only drive to work if they can't walk.

Organizing car share as much as possible.

While planning for any instructions to work from home again
for distance internet teaching...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 09:49 PM

The news here is about the UK facing imminent electricity and home heating gas shortages this winter.?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 02:58 AM

Then find a better news agency. The problem is not a shortage. It's that the cost of gas has rocketed, which may throw many thousands more people into fuel poverty. There IS a shortage of fuel at filling stations due to distribution issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 10:33 AM

So for all intents and purposes, there is a shortage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:09 AM

Here's an idea..

How about a mudcat Christmas special edition..

"The collected best of Deleted British Political Posts - All the Grit Wit and Fury The Censors need to protect America from"

FREE DOWNLOAD FORMATTED FOR KINDLE.

DONATIONS GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED FOR MUDCAT'S FAVOURITE CHARITIES..

What an excellent Christmas stocking filler that could be...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:17 AM

Stilly River Sage wrote: So for all intents and purposes, there is a shortage.

There's certainly a shortage in my petrol tank! I've had to cancel a weekend away.

What will probably happen is that everybody will go from filling up their vehicles when they are ¼ full to filling them when they are ¾ full. So there will be a short term surge in consumption of
(number of vehicles)×(mean fuel tank volume)×0.5
After that it will calm down.

There is actually a shortage of gas, in that consumption has soared (for several reasons) and producers (Russia for example) have declined to increase supplies to Europe, even at unprecedented prices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:50 AM

"The news here is about the UK facing imminent electricity and home heating gas shortages this winter.?"

There is no shortage of these to ANY intents and purposes, Maggie. There is a shortage of fuel at filling stations only in the sense that we haven't got enough delivery drivers to get it there. There is no shortage on these shores of gas, electricity or petrol. There is a risk of rocketing gas prices (not petrol, gas) causing severe difficulties for families and this will have a knock-on effect on electricity prices as many of our power stations are gas-fired. The refineries have more petrol than they know what to do with. It's just that they can't get enough of it to filling stations. So the news suggested by Donuel (at least he inserted his question mark) is not correct. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:56 AM

There isn't a shortage of gas, Dave. Our problem is that we operate on a just-in-time basis with regard to gas in the UK and we have scant gas storage facilities. But the countries that supply our gas are not running out. We could be placed further back in the queue, 'tis true, but as things stand the issue is rocketing wholesale prices, not a shortage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 12:37 PM

My boss went out at 7am today for petrol, and failed because of lengthy queues even at that time! I shall use public transport for the 4 mile journey to work, which is at minimum 2 buses around Croydon or a bus to East Croydon Station and then a tram - which I'm not keen on because there are too many idiots not wearing masks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 01:25 PM

Steve, your middle name must be "Quibble." The shortage exists for consumers because they can't get the fuel, or very much very often. But you keep telling us about the full-to-bursting storage tanks with all of that fuel. It is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm taking the view of the consumer on this one.

The story has made it to the US: today on NPR they spoke about 5,000 special work visas Boris has issued to try to lure back drivers who left after the Brexit debacle. But how long will those last? Will the drivers be escorted to the border once enough UK citizens agree to drive those trucks?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 01:40 PM

Full details of the scheme are to follow, probably tomorrow. There has been mention of the visas just being valid for 3 months. We will have to wait and see.

I suppose the visas will work just the same as they do throughout the world, including your own country. Once the time is up it will be illegal to carry on working.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 02:09 PM

"Thanks for helping us out of a crisis - now f@ck off back where you came from"..

Yep.. that is traditional tory gratitude...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 05:59 PM

A personal anecdote on fuel shortages.

My daughter got married today. One of her best friends from Uni days who lives 130 miles away had to queue at six petrol stations for about 20 minutes a time before she could get enough petrol for the journey. I was due to drive the couple to the airport some 50 miles away tomorrow and, since my car estimated 97 miles of fuel left I went to full up, fortunately before the panic was in full swing. There were still about 10 cars in front of me and the garage was entirely out of diesel and some pumps had run out of E10.

My son and his family had their taxi cancelled at short notice because of fuel, so ended up taking the bus and running to the ceremony.

That there is fuel at the refineries may be true, but what we experienced was a shortage.

(Completely independently, there was an accident on the motorway and the groom.nearly.didn't make it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 06:04 PM

I should perhaps add that my wife's sister's husband came from some 250 miles away. He had enough diesel in his car, but currently does not have enough to get back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 07:52 PM

For goodness sake, Maggie. Donuel suggested that he'd heard of shortages of gas and electricity. There is a shortage of neither of those. There IS a shortage of petrol at filling stations, which Donuel didn't mention. That is currently the one and only shortage we have! That is not me "quibbling." That's you having another go at me for correcting Donuel, who is frequently in need of correcting. On this occasion, he wasn't, as he'd queried with a question mark what he'd picked up your end about the UK. I was happy to correct his reading of the matter. Harmless stuff, no wading in from you needed.

For the first time in 18 months we visited our son in London, just an overnight stay Friday to Saturday. We set off early on Friday with a full tank, blissfully unaware of the impending petrol crisis. There is no way we'd get there and back, 520 miles in total, on one tank of petrol (Fiesta, folks). We heard about the crisis on the car radio on the way there, so I did what we never do, I topped up at Leigh Delamere services (ripoff) which would have would have seen us home today but with very little fuel left. We had a 'mare getting out of London this evening (we have to come over Kew Bridge to get on the M4 at Chiswick). Well there's a big petrol station at Chiswick roundabout, and whaddya know, the panic buyers were out in such force that the whole area was gridlocked because of the on-road queueing at the filling station. We covered a mile and a half in just over an hour, knowing we then had to confront a 250-mile drive in the dark. Then , once on the M4, we found it was shut at Junction 6. So we diverted on to the M3 and A303. I don't much like the 303 in the dark. We use that route sometimes but only in daylight. Luckily, we found a filling station this side of Stonehenge that allowed us a max of £30 spend. So we've arrived home with just over half a tank. Never again! We got home at 11pm, and, I tell you, I'm a shadow of me former self!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 08:38 PM

Shame there weren't also any road protesters out adding to the chaos and disruption..

.. you could have nipped out the car offering them a hearty jolly pat on the back and good socialist soldarity,
while they blocked you from getting where you needed to be
at the end of a very stressful and expensive journey...

Though it looks like tory petrol shortage crisis
is even making road traffic halting protesters redundant...

Surely sir keith can't be so usless to throw away this opportunity
to bash boris,
instead of wasting all effort attacking the left of his own party at conference..

Which is the biased angle of BBC newa headlines tonight/this mornig...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 10:01 PM

".. you could have nipped out the car offering them a hearty jolly pat on the back and good socialist soldarity, "

Absolutely I would have! Unfortunately, the people blocking the ambulances and the desperate relatives of sick people in Chiswick were the pricks stuck in the middle of one of the busiest junctions in London, queueing for petrol, thinking to hell with these unsavoury buggers who are horribly socialist scum anyway...). Because my lad lives in Richmond, I know this area quite well, and I can tell you without fear nor favour (looking at the cars in the jam) that many of the road-blockers panic-buying petrol were of the metro-elite set, not the hippy ex-college tree-huggers that you appear to think comprise the M25 demonstrators...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:13 PM

.. it's a funny old world.. gotta laff...!!!

.. and good serious lefties should not have to be cowed into silence
if they see deficiencies in the thinking and actions of activists on our own side...

I see too much conformist lefty peer pressure to refrain from saying anything critical
about counter productive disruptive protests by our 'heroic comrades',
or 'hippy green liberal' allies...

As strange as it may sound..
Lefty keyboard warriors may actually be ultimately more effective
than alienating mobs of street demonstrators...!!!

["Pen is mightier than the sword" 2021 remix...]

Btw.. I would like to see a proper progressive Labour party govt in power sometime before I'm 70...

sir keef is doing eff all useful to win back working class ex Labour voters
from the clutches of the alt right...

While barmy extreme* lefties are driving even more ordinary folks away to the even barmier right...


[* bearing in mind I might be even more extreme lefty than a lot of 'em..
I'm good at keeping strategically quiet when necessary..
If I had my way there'd be swingeing reductions in private car ownership..
.. oops.. I said it.. duh..]...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:45 AM

I agree with you on that one, PFR. Once we have the situation where you can walk out if your front door and within 5 minutes get good, fast public transport to within 5 minutes of where you are going, we can get rid of private transport for all but those who really need it. It could be done with a mixture of small vehicles, preferably electric, going from door to hub. The hubs would be train and bus stations for longer trips. No delays on the roads with no nutters in Chelsea tractors causing havoc. Less pollution all round. What's not to like?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:10 AM

.. and motorways only permitting utilitarian electric commercial vans & lorries,
and public transport coaches...

Yep, I can definitely do extreme lefty 'popular vote losing' idealism
quiely in my own head...

Won't see me out ranting in the streets driving the mass population further towards the far right...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:46 AM

Stilly & Steve

A problem here with two countries divided by a common language.

Gas (US) petroleum (or any gaseous fluid)
Gas (UK) flammable gaseous fuel (or any other gaseous fluid)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 05:00 AM

I did say gas (not petrol) in one post, Nigel! And I tend to think that we are all divided by Donuel's indulgent and obscurantist language...

Electric cars are not the panacea to save the world. You have to make the bloody things, you have to generate the electricity, you have to mine rare metals for the batteries in environmentally-destructive ways and they don't go far enough on a charge, etc. But I still might get one once my owld Focus snuffs it. Public transport, great. But here in Pastyshire it's almost non-existent in any useful form, and, thanks to Beeching, the biggest political vandal who ever bestrode the country, the nearest railway to me is at Bodmin Parkway, an hour's drive. You can't ban cars round here unless you want to depopulate Cornwall! Solutions, please...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 05:18 AM

I live in an isolated are in ireland i have a bus that goes in to bantry twice a week there is also a bus that comes by every morning at 8 15, my public transport travel is free so i can get on a bus at 8 15 then catch a 10 am bus to Cork, i can get back to bantry, but then have to get a txi cost 20 euros.
the answer is increasing public transport make it free, both bus and train to pensioners, but people have to use it. public transport is state owned in rep of ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 06:23 AM

I agree with that.

If I want to go to Exeter I can catch a bus (a two-hour journey there and a two-hour journey back, approx four buses a day) I have to get into Bude, about four miles away. Taxi, ten or twelve quid? Back in Bude I have to get the four miles home, and I live down a lane 3/4 mile from where the extremely rare and badly-timed local bus would drop me off. Or get a taxi for ten or twelve quid... On the other hand, I can be in the multi-storey at the Guildhall in a hour and five minutes if I jump in the car and be sitting on a bench in the sun eating my Marks and Sparks Best Ever prawn butty ten minutes later.

What would YOU do?   And the answer is NOT buy a BLT instead!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 06:37 AM

"public transport is state owned in rep of ireland"

Not strictly true, not all of public transport in Ireland (note spelling) is state owned.

Citylink, owned by ComfortDelGro a Singaporean company, operates buses from Dublin, Galway, Cork and Clifden, there is also the Wexford Bus company.

There may be others supplies of public transport

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 06:45 AM

And if anyone still reserves a scintilla of doubt about Starmer's rank inadequacy, he's proving it in spades this week: even the Guardian/Observer is referring to his conference chaos. It's clear that Angela Rayner and he don't get on. I know which one of 'em I prefer. At least calling scum scum is honest and accurate in this case. Cue being told that I don't understand tactics, etc. Well the best tactic Labour could employ would be to get rid of Sir Keir as soon as possible. He will never, ever, reside in Number Ten. And I'm a desperate party member, still clinging on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 07:36 AM

DMcG, did your daughter manage to get her flowers sorted ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 09:34 AM

We went to Morrisons just now, tank half full. To our amazement, the forecourt was almost empty. We drove straight in and topped up. We'd gone to buy grub, not petrol, but why not we thought...

On our way into town we drove past the Esso garage, much dearer than Morrisons. They were queuing a hundred yards down the road. You couldn't make it up...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 10:20 AM

bum bum bum bum.. arsehole blue...


.. quite fitting catchy ditty for a tory PM and his handling of a fuel crisis...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 11:59 AM

DMcG, did your daughter manage to get her flowers sorted ok?

She got some flowers, but neither the quantity nor intended style.   It ended up as essentially a bouquet and some round an arch in a garden which the groom's dad built, plus some small table decorations she made herself.

As I said, it was a somewhat fraught affair as we did not know who would be able to make it. Bride and groom were supposed to be an a formal interview at 11:30, prior to the noon service, but we were all gathered round at about twenty to, hearing text messages "SatNav is estimating I will be there about ten past twelve" and so on. Just on noon he came running up to the hall. His parents did not arrive until about ten past, but we had to start late because of the legally required interview of the bride and groom.   Both delays there were because a section of the motorway was blocked after an accident.

Apart form a slight need to dodge the next set of people arriving, it went quite smoothly after that.

Until we found the venue in the evening had double booked an 18th birthday event at the same time. Different areas, but next to each other and we had to walk through theirs to get to the bar. Not neat.

But at the 5th attempt, thanks to covid, we got there in the end!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 12:47 PM

I've no interest in football or popular celebrities

but I just caught the BBC TV news 30 minute version of this quite interesting podcast..

Gary Lineker: presenter, influencer, campaigner

It seems the radio version is an hour long...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:23 PM

My lovely daughter in law, Lee, is being threatened with expulsion from the Labour Party. Her 'crime'? Antisemitism for criticising Israel. Even though she is 100% Jewish. The real reason? Being too left wing. Last month she stood in at the last minute to be a candidate in a local election. The local party threw everything in her way but despite that, she beat their preferred Tory light candidate by a few votes and was nominated. She lost the election by a handful of votes and it went to 2 recounts. After the event she was told that the local party executive Committee abstained from voting rather than support her. The Tory contender won and that was purely down to the pettiness of the local party executive. She showed willing to stand as Labour candidate in other wards as the need arose. They couldn't have that of course.

I had already resigned from the party. It was a hard decision and I have been soul searching ever since. This debacle has confirmed that my decision was the right one. I will continue to do what I can to pull the politics of this country back from the right wing extremes it has reached. I will do this in spite of the current shower pretending to be the party of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:38 PM

I'm being over optimistic hoping for a real progressive Labour Govt before I'm 70..

Better revise that to at least 75...


[l'm 62]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:40 PM

I went out at 9am today for petrol, saw that roads were gridlocked so turned around - much to the annoyance of a car full of yobs, and came home. Bag is packed for bus & tram to work in the morning, and probably for the rest of this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:50 PM

Cheers, Dave. I'm on the brink. Watching this conference anxiously...

I note the early interference of the Board of Deputies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:58 PM

I think it's even worse, PFR :-(

I can't see Labour, as it stands at the moment, ever getting to power. On the other hand, the current Tory administration cannot continue its run of lies, cheating and mismanagement. Surely people will realise eventually. Won't they?

I think the best result we can hope for at the next election is a hung parliament with minority parties joining forces to force a radical restructure of our electoral system. Maybe PR? Something else? I just don't know but, whatever it is, could result in neither of the main parties having an overall majority again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:59 PM

Oh, 1900!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 12:01 AM

Sir Keef - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyFt5gZ-3hQ&ab_channel=NovaraMedia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 04:16 AM

My son who works in Manchester just pointed out something I had not thought of. There is a shortage of bus drivers too! Being retired and not having to commute anywhere, it doesn't affect me. But how many people is that going to hit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 09:16 AM

Quote from Philip Pullman's 'Book of Dust' volume 2 - The secret commonwealth.

It's the oldest human problem, Lyra, an' it's the difference between good and evil. Evil can be unscrupulous, and good can't. Evil has nothing to stop it doing what it wants, while good has one hand tied behind its back. To do the things it needs to do to win, it'd have to become evil to do 'em.

It's a fantasy book but I read the quote last night after watching 'highlights' of the Labour party conference. I wonder if Mr Pullman had the gift of prophecy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 03:49 PM

"After an inconclusive show of hands in the conference hall in Brighton, a card vote showed just under 80% of CLP votes backing the motion. But the votes from affiliates – almost entirely comprising unions – were 95% opposed. The eventual result was nearly 58% against."

Brilliant. So a comparative handful of people cast block votes to override the 80% CLP. No wonder one of the charges against Labour has always been that it is under the control of "Union barons."

Getting rid of the Tories has just been made far far harder, essentially because the unions thought they would lose influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 03:51 PM

I should have said the motion was to change from first past the post in elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 05:29 PM

errrmmm.. why have I started calling sir keer "sir keef"...!!!???

It's not a clever dick in-joke..
f@ck knows what's been miscomunicatibg
between my brain and typng fingers..

Though, it is that easy not to remember anything at all about this bland besuited corporate clone...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 09:34 AM

DMcG:
"After an inconclusive show of hands in the conference hall in Brighton, a card vote showed just under 80% of CLP votes backing the motion. But the votes from affiliates – almost entirely comprising unions – were 95% opposed. The eventual result was nearly 58% against."

Presumably the union block votes count for more because they are supposed to be representative of their thousands of members.

Brilliant. So a comparative handful of people cast block votes to override the 80% CLP. No wonder one of the charges against Labour has always been that it is under the control of "Union barons."

Yes, I've subscribed to that view for a long time. Are you starting to agree with it? Or do you just think that it's a false correllation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 10:34 AM

Who are these barons?

And let me remind you of a couple of things. First, the Labour Party grew out of the trade Union movement. I for one want to see that strong link retained. Second, on the question of block votes, show me that the "barons" vote against the wishes of their members. I don't think you can. It's little more than received wisdom perpetuated by the right (as is "unions holding the country to ransom"). Third, crucial votes in the Commons are usually decided by block voting. We call it whipping.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 10:59 AM

Who are these barons?

They are those in control of the unions (and I don't mean their members) who control how the unions' votes are cast.

To quote Laura Parker from Labour for a New Democracy:

“Rank-and-file trade unionists play a key role in our campaign, but despite this most unions do not yet back reform. The truth is, if the leadership had engaged with this unifying policy as intensively as they pushed their own proposed rule changes, PR would now be Labour policy.”

Above quote from The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 11:06 AM

They probably have little to no idea of how their members want them to vote.

Look at Unite, members aporox 1.2 million

McCluskey last elected in 2017 with 59,067 votes.

Graham elected in August with 46,696 votes.

In both those elections only approx 12% of the members voted. 12%. Makes the turn out at local elections look fantastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 11:28 AM

Yes, I've subscribed to that view for a long time. Are you starting to agree with it? Or do you just think that it's a false correllation?
Well, I am not *starting* to subscribe to it, because it is a concern I have had for a long time. I would much prefer if on everything except the most minor matters the unions balloted their members and split the block vote in line with the ballot result. It is one of the problems with the way the party is organised. That is not how it is set up, however, and I am aware it would be difficult because the exact question to ballot on is not known until conference. So it would probably need a two-stage voting system, which is cumbersome.

All party organisations have problems. Do you want me to list some of those of other parties too?

But you also need to distinguish between principles and structure, and for all the flaws in the structure, the principles of the more centrist Labour party match mine more closely than other parties. Not 100%, of course, and other parties have positions on some topics I might prefer. I have been pro PR since before I joined Charter '88 when it was first formed, for example.

(And when I say 'more central' I am aware that judged by European standards Corbyn was far more centrist than the Tory press would have us believe.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 12:52 PM

Well, Raindog, trade unions are generally organised on democratic principles. True, turnout in union elections is low and that reflects lack of interest in union matters from members. Since Thatcher emasculated the unions, with Blair following behind enthusiastically, unions are generally perceived to be impotent. Year after year of governments ignoring pay review bodies and imposing pay freezes has gone virtually unchallenged by anything other than words. Big and small companies can cheerfully refuse to recognise trade unions. Blame the unions for failing to update themselves by all means, and I might in part agree with you, but this unhealthy situation has led to horrors such as zero-hours contracts, no job security, full-time working couples unable to afford the rent, burgeoning food banks and the rest, all led by right-wing union-bashing ideology. Strong unions are a sign of a healthy nation. And we're not all Red Robbos. I've been a trade unionist all my life (still am, at 70) and I've seen how tough it is to resist the ruthless forces of that ideology. Working class people need strong trade unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 01:25 PM

My wife's school academy has removed the school Union Rep's entitlement
to use working hours for Union business.
At the same time as using any petty flimsy reasons
to pressurise older higher paid teachers
into taking 'early retirement'.

What was once supposed to be a caring workplace is now a toxic environment.

All the union can do is acquiesce to this ruthless regime
and advise the 'victims'
on their least painful method of exit..

"Best not complain or resist, if you want a good reference"...

==========

Btw.. sir keer's ambition to be PM at any cost..

Are Labour now effectively the liberals or tory wets...????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 01:32 PM

Under him, they are. But never underestimate the left. We never go away. I've already noticed "calls for unity." That means "go away, inconvenient lefties." It would all fine (relatively) if he was any use. But he isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 03:50 PM

be fine

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 10:38 AM

Keir Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.

In a way, so was Boris Johnson's...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 11:39 AM

Starmer was talking to the party within the conference bubble, very little to the country. All hope will be erased by the end of next week, by which time the Boris hubris will have been fully restored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 04:08 PM

Here's a great comment from a Guardian reader in response to an article about Starmer and the conference. I agree with every word:

The right of the Party which had their knives out for Corbyn from the getgo, despite him leading a broad church party reflected in his cabinet which Starmer cannot bring himself to do. The right of the Party, many of whom were pursuing and openly campaigning for a Tory victory in the extremely close fought 2017 election. Now the same right of the Party calls desperately for “unity” as it finds that its “kick the left” platform has even less appeal across the country as a whole than the bold centre-left Labour manifesto offered in 2017. Corbyn was no leader, but he was a principled left winger who tried hard to get people to vote for a transformative left wing programme, and in 2017 came very, very close to succeeding. I’ve no idea what Starmer is and neither does the country it seems.

That is spot on. The contributor could have enlarged on what he or she said by pointing to all those "centrists" who petulantly refused to serve in Jeremy's shadow cabinet, and to all those scumbags who crawled out of the woodwork to confect a fake antisemitism campaign against him. They all clearly thought that it was worth condemning him to an election defeat in order to get him out. It must have really annoyed them that it took two goes. I note that there's a warm welcome back into the party for the utterly obnoxious Louise Ellman, allegedly "forced out of the party"...Like bollix she was. As they say, grr...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 05:28 PM

From Priti Patel on Twitter:

"Every woman should feel safe to walk on our streets without fear of harassment or violence."

But it's OK if they don't feel safe on a dinghy when they're threatened with being turned back halfway across the Channel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 09:01 AM

I was talking about a disregard for people on another thread. BoJo has shown his true colours yet again

From this interview

I’ve given you the most important metric – never mind life expectancy, never mind cancer outcomes – look at wage growth

Once again the Tory leader shows that he believes money is more important than people. How some otherwise caring people can continue to support him is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 02:47 PM

And, after that, and all the other stuff he's said about flag-waving piccaninnies with watermelon smiles, Muslim women looking like letterboxes or bank robbers, gay men as bumboys in tank tops, we have confected outrage over Angela Rayner calling him scum. It might not have been her best tactical move, but begod it was accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 10:18 AM

I said a bit back that PR was only chance Labour had to gain power and this Guardian opinion sums it up far better than I could.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 12:15 PM

Angela Rayner is nothing but a loud mouthed cow, an evil woman if ever there was one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 12:33 PM

...Sez the man who idolises Thatcher. Oh, the irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 12:50 PM

Absolutely

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 21 - 07:51 AM

More from the scum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Oct 21 - 02:55 PM

Binzo, you are confusing Angela Raynor with thatcher. Why do you have a problem with scum being called what the are?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:12 AM

"Prime Minister - STOP...TALKING!"

Nice one, Nick Robinson (of whom I'm no fan as it happens)! That one will definitely go down in the annals!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 08:59 AM

I have admitted before that, when she is on form, I like Marina Hyde's articles. This one had me laughing out loud.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:31 AM

She's great, isn't she.

Here's a bit of a speech from someone who I regard as far from great:

Freedom to protest is a fundamental right our party will forever fight to uphold.

But it must be within the law.

Measures already going through parliament will ensure these criminals can be brought to justice for the disruption they are causing.

But we are going further to close down the legal loopholes exploited by these offenders.

So today I can announce I will also increase the maximum penalties for disrupting a motorway; criminalise interference with key infrastructure such as roads, railways and our free press; and give the police and courts new powers to deal with the small minority of offenders intent on travelling around the country, causing disruption and misery across our communities.

So Priti is calling people "criminals" and "offenders" who haven't been convicted of a crime. She agrees that we all have a right to protest, but is bringing in new laws to make sure that we can't. Isn't she just lovely. Oh, and there's renewed talk of turning small boats back that are halfway across the Channel, just as the stormy season serifs in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:32 AM

sets

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:42 AM

If border force employees obey orders push back asylum seekers they would be committing an offense under international law, and would need to be brought to justice. Carrying out their job in accordance with government instructions is no defense and must never be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 10:14 AM

If border force employees obey orders push back asylum seekers they would be committing an offense under international law,

Not being an expert in international maritime law, may I ask what law would be being broken?
Also, does the same law prevent the French from pushing the boats 'forward'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 10:54 AM

I think that is highly unlikely that any vessels will be pushed back. It is just talk, down to the frustration of finding that there is no easy solution to the 'problem'.

Talk, talk, talk yet people continue to arrive by illegal means. Neither the French or Uk authorities have the means to patrol the coastline in order to catch the vessels as they set off. However, you might think that they have the means to target the gangs who are providing this service. Does anyone think that drug smugglers could act so freely?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:10 AM

“Talk, talk, talk yet people continue to arrive by illegal means”

The means by which a migrant arrives is not subject to judgment over legality. It is not ‘illegal’ to arrive by small boat any more than arriving on a ferry or in an aircraft. The issue of ‘legality’ revolves around the person’s right to come here, and on them having declared their arrival to the UK Immigration authorities, not the means by which they arrive.

I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death.

I would propose ‘Irregular migration’ as a more accurate, considerably less inflammatory, term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:41 AM

Just been listening to the following programme on BBC Radio 4, which will be available on playback.

100 years of Exile

Who is a refugee?

100 Years of Exile

Episode 1 of 3

It is 100 years since a civil war caused a refugee crisis on Europe's borders and the appointment of the first High Commissioner for refugees. Today, as a series of refugee crises roils European politics, Katy Long presents a series examining what the century in between has taught us all about how to deal with a refugee crisis.

Across three episodes, Katy will examine how refugee crises start, what it is like to be a refugee, how the business of supporting refugees has changed (and grown), and how refugee crises end. She speaks to refugees and former refugees, to those who work with them and to the politicians who decide what will become of them.

In this first episode, about how refugee crises start, Katy will examine how the definition of a refugee has changed. Covering Russia, Rwanda and Syria, she'll consider how international agreements, legal texts and political pressures have shaped public and political understanding of who refugees are, and what they are owed.

Producer: Giles Edwards
Assistant Producer: George Dabby.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:54 AM

"I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death."

I couldn't agree more with this. I've taken issue with yanks on the use of the word "illegals" as a noun. Calling a human being "illegal" is as dehumanising and, in this context as racist (as we use the term for "foreigners" only) as calling them any of those other names that we like to type as mostly asterisks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM

"I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death."

People putting their lives at risk by making dangerous crossings of the English Channel do not appear to be 'fleeing the danger of violence or death'. They are trying to move from one 'safe' country, France, to another, England.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM

By Woody:

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:12 PM

And why would that be, Nigel? Because they have a few grand per person spare to just idly pay traffickers with dangerous dinghies? Feel like delving a little deeper?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:48 PM

And why would that be, Nigel? Because they have a few grand per person spare to just idly pay traffickers with dangerous dinghies? Feel like delving a little deeper?

No need to dig deeper, although several possible reasons suggest themselves:
Relatives already in UK
Expectation of better treatment here than in France
Already understand and speak English

None of that however goes against my point that in crossing from France to England they are not "fleeing the danger of violence or death".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:18 PM

So you have family here, you expect a better life and you can speak English. I could also add that you may well be very willing to work. But, despite all that, you're only allowed in if you're fleeing danger or death (the converse tbc, of course). Not let me think of a few groups of people who get in freely yet can't match those criteria...

Judge not, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:53 PM

So you have family here,(or) you expect a better life andor you can speak English. I could also add that you may well be very willing to work. But, despite all that, you're only allowed in if you're fleeing danger or death (the converse tbc, of course). Not let me think of a few groups of people who get in freely yet can't match those criteria...

No, I didn't say that.
I was responding to Backwoodsman's comment (endorsed by you) that these people were fleeing the danger of violence or death.

Set up as many straw men as you wish. My original comment has been avoided by you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:10 PM

On another topic, of less significance but important enough in its way. The National Trust AGM elects six places to its council at the end of this month. There is a group "Restore Trust" which is against all wokeness, pointing out links to slavery and suchlike on its properties. At least some of them are strongly opposed to LGBT+ issues, though the link to National Trust properties seems a bit tenuous. Anyway, these are the list of candidates they recommend you vote for:

Michael Goodhart
Stephen Green
Min Grimshaw
David Pearson
Andrew Powles
Guy Trehane

Alternatively, if you are like me, this is a handy list to ensure you do not vote for them by accident.

Steven Green's pitch for the role is especially enlightening:

am a long-standing member of the
National Trust and I seek election to the
Council to call the Trust back to its
founding principles, to treat its members,
donors, volunteers and tenants with
respect and to end its promotion of
fashionable ‘woke’ causes. Even as I was
filling in the Council election forms,
the Trust asked not just my sex but my
‘gender identity’ and my sexual orientation!
I believe the National Trust elite is obsessed
with LGBT issues. I believe a former
National Trust curator claimed historical
information about Trust properties
‘privileges heterosexual lives’ by ‘offering
information about marriages, inheritance
and the role of the family’. The Trust should
instead ‘provide more information on
same-sex desire and LGBTQ+ lives from
the past’.
The 2017 Felbrigg Hall affair, in which the
Trust claimed the donor, the late Robert
Ketton-Cremer, was homosexual, on no
evidence, shows where this madness leads.
I shall ensure that future donors feel safe
from the Trust poring over their past and
inventing salacious details of an imagined
private life.
I shall also want to know how much
members’ money has been spent in recent
years by the National Trust participating
in gay pride parades such as it did in
Birmingham in 2019. I shall stop divisive
marketing exercises and woke virtuesignalling.
I also seek your vote to end what I believe
to be the anti-democratic, corrupt system
whereby the Trust elite ‘recommends’
certain Council election candidates to
ensure nobody is elected who will ever
actually call them to account.
So if I am elected to the National Trust
Council it will be nothing less than
a miracle!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:34 PM

Well I'm not quite sure which bit of what you've said I haven't addressed. Hey ho.

Johnson doesn't want to make misogyny a hate crime. After all that's happened recently. At the same time, Patel wants to make peaceful environmental protests an imprisonable offence. The Tories want to limit the potential for judicial review to investigate government. The Electoral Commission is also in their sights. Well I think we could be heading towards fascism. I don't think that's putting it too strongly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM

Oh, and by the way, Johnson wants to appoint the bullying, foul-mouthed, alt-right off-shorer ex-editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre, as the head of Ofcom, this country's media regulator. Wow...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 06:00 PM

DMcG, you've neatly summarised why I would never join the National Trust. And the NT profiteers by grossly overcharging non-members for using its car parks round here. Last year, we could use the Leadmines car park at Pentireglaze for free, and the nearby Pentireglaze car park for a quid or two in the honesty box. To do the circular walk you need to park for around 2 1/2 to 3 hours. This year, that suddenly costs four quid in each car park. Both car parks have uneven, stony, weedy and often muddy surfaces. The National Trust can go hang as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 06:57 PM

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. The bill that would require voters to produce ID (and who knows what that would mean...) before they'd be handed their ballot papers is still on the cards. As there's no electoral fraud in this country (which this measure is purportedly there to "eliminate"), you could conclude that this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. But you'd be wrong. It's a measure that would make it much more difficult for the poor and the deprived to vote at all. Well, if they could vote they wouldn't be voting Tory, would they...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 07:49 PM

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. The bill that would require voters to produce ID (and who knows what that would mean...) before they'd be handed their ballot papers is still on the cards. As there's no electoral fraud in this country (which this measure is purportedly there to "eliminate"),

Again, a sweeping generalisation from Steve Shaw.
While there may not be a major problem with electoral fraud in UK, to say that there is none is not only unproveable but the statement can easily be shown to be false: The Electoral Commission

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 08:00 PM

Well, Nigel, in each of the last four or five years, proven cases of electoral fraud have been in single figures every year (very checkable). There are forty-odd million voters in this country. Please tell me, in all seriousness, that you support a measure "to combat electoral fraud" that would, in fact, make it difficult for many thousands of the poorest voters, who couldn't access decent ID, to vote at all. Come along now, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 08:52 PM

Well, Nigel, in each of the last four or five years, proven cases of electoral fraud have been in single figures every year (very checkable).

The very fact that you accept that there are proven cases is also acceptance that your earlier claim: there's no electoral fraud in this country was untrue. And according to you it was "very checkable". Obviously, as on previous occasions, you committed yourself to print without checking your facts in the belief that a strongly asserted statement would be accepted as 'fact'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:00 PM

Single numbers per annum out of an electorate of forty-odd million. Congratulations, Nigel, on your greatest nitpick ever! Excellent, even for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:31 PM

Stop squirming and admit that your original claim was wrong.
To 'a scientist' the difference between 'none' and 'some' should be significant.
The fact that there are some proven cases, even if only a few, does not preclude the possibility of other cases not brought to light. But it does preclude the possibility that there's no electoral fraud in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

Proven cases of electoral fraud are small. There would appear to be little to no evidence that it is a problem in the UK. I would suspect that if it does occur it is more likely to do so in local elections but, like the government, i do not have any evidence to support that suspicion.

Of course it was a Labour government that floated this idea before. Indeed they introduced it in Northern Ireland in 2002. I don't know how people over there have taken to it. I am not aware that it is a major issue.

BUT.

The following text is taken from Channel 4 website.

++

In Northern Ireland, voters who didn’t have the right documents could apply for a free photographic electoral ID card from their local council.

This went some way to answering the objection that people who could not afford the application fee for a driving licence or passport might be priced out of voting.

When the government first announced this bill in the Queen’s Speech in 2019, it explicitly said it would follow the Northern Ireland model, saying: “Any voter who does not have an approved form of ID will be able to apply, free of charge, for a local electoral identity document.”

This assurance is missing from the notes that accompany the 2021 Queen’s Speech, and we haven’t been able to pin the government down on whether they still plan to offer free ID cards to people who don’t have them.

On the question of funding, a government spokesman simply told us: “We will set out detail in due course.”

++

The devil is in the detail. If people have to pay for voter id, it will hit the poorest hardest. They are probably more likely to vote labour rather than tory.

If the government try to push this through before the next general election, i think that even the less cynical among us will suspect their motives for doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM

Possibly a step towards compulsory National Identity Cards?

(For the record, I’m ambivalent about compulsory National ID cards - they seemed to be acceptable during WW2 and in the few years afterwards, maybe they’d be fine now?).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:44 AM

This country does not own me, and what I carry around, or not, to identify myself should always be fully my decision. I never go anywhere (whether driving or not) without my driving licence. My decision. I need it (or something similar to identify myself), quite rightly, to pick up my wine order at Waitrose click and collect, and I need it this morning to pick up an order at the local Argos. I've been caught speeding several times, and that has taught me that it's always a great idea (though it isn't obligatory) to carry the licence with me as it means I don't have the inconvenience of having to go to a police station to show it later. Those are my choices, and I will not carry ID just because a government tells me to. I haven't got a problem with certain convicted criminals wearing tags, but that's the only acceptable exception as far as I'm concerned.

Nigel, dear fellow, there is no discernible problem with voter fraud that even remotely requires a law obliging us to carry voter ID. That's the argument, if you're making it, that you've lost. So nitpick away, I'm finished with that avenue of enquiry.

On a different tack, here's a comment from a reader under a Guardian opinion piece about the motorway protests. I'm reproducing it because I agree with every word.

One of my closest friends is involved in the Insulate Britain protests. In over 30 years of environmental activism she has sacrificed so much, at considerable personal cost. To hear her dismissed as an “irresponsible crusty” by Johnson brought home to me how little thought he actually puts into what he says. As long as he gets in a cheap ad hominem dig and gets to play to the gallery it’s job done. That’s the extent of his involvement.

As for the benighted Home Secretary. I was listening to her speech today. She shifted seamlessly from the word “protestor” to the word “criminal”, almost as if they were synonyms. She is a menace. She is a threat to all protest …... a threat to decency.

I accept that Extinction Rebellion and Insulate Britain really piss people off. That’s part of the point. Is it counter-productive? Well, we’re all talking about it, so on an important metric they are succeeding in what they’ve set out to do. After decades of activism with little to show, these are the tactics which finally seem to have broken through.

But be under no illusion that this doesn’t come at some personal cost for the protestors. Don’t fall for the bullshit of focusing on who the protestors are. Focus on the issue and its ramifications. Because if you think you’re inconvenienced now, just wait until you see what’s in store if we all continue as we are.

We should be just grateful that there are people willing to put themselves on the line for the sake of the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:53 AM

So, you already have an ID card Steve. Fair enough. Has anyone suggested that, should an ID card system be introduced, it would be compulsory to carry it at all times? If so, I must have missed it.

And my suggestion that a ‘Voter ID’ document might be a stealth step by a less-than-up-front Tory government towards the introduction of an ID card system was just that - not in any way a recommendation or indication of my belief in such a thing, I thought I’d made it perfectly clear that I don’t care either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

But I carry it out of choice, generally dictated by convenience. I don't carry it because I've been ordered to by a government. I will never do that, because, as I said, this country doesn't own me. That was my point. Give me an ID card and tell me that I can carry it if I want to. No problem with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM

Hence my question. Has it been suggested that, should an ID card system be introduced, carrying it at all times would be compulsory? It may have been, but I don’t recall it if it has..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:09 AM

I was responding to your post that used the word "compulsory" twice, and your musing as to whether they'd be fine now. that's all!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:17 AM

As I’ve now said three times, it was a rhetorical question about the possible intentions of a government with a reputation for behaving dishonestly, not an indication of support, and I don’t care whether they’re introduced or not.

Alles klaar?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 06:54 AM

"Is it counter-productive? Well, we’re all talking about it, so on an important metric they are succeeding in what they’ve set out to do."

It is ok for good lefties to call that out as utter bollocks...!!!

What 'we're' talking about is the fanatical numpty useful idiot protesters..

They are an annoying distraction from talking about the actual issues which matter more than just about any others
to the survival of our planet..

Issues which ARE already being widely discussed because of their vital importance to our future..

NOT because of vain protesting fools and their uncritical naive supporters claiming credit
for such timely current crucial discussions...

.. and what a joke if the Home Insulation industry is discovered to be covertly controlling Insulate Britain puppets...???

They got as far as legally tolerable with dodgy call centre tele sales teams
promising free govt money grants for shoddy home insulation products...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:44 AM

I’m broadly with you, pfr - I’m all for peaceful protest, but I feel that the Insulate Britain crowd are following a self-defeating policy by going too far and, thus, alienating many people who would otherwise have supported their protest.

Having been rushed by ambulance to hospital with life-threatening conditions a number of times, I know that Mrs Backwoodsperson would have torn a few heads off if my survival had been threatened by by demonstrators delaying the ambulance’s progress to the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:40 AM

"They are an annoying distraction from talking about the actual issues..."

Well you certainly hit the nail on the head there. We've spent the last forty or fifty years "talking about the issues" and DOING next to bugger all about them. Carbon dioxide emissions still rising year on year, for example. I think I read somewhere this morning that the UK has the draughtiest, most poorly-insulated houses in Europe... All the talking-about-the-issues is just hot air. Literally. These folks are DOING something. The long history of protests is that if you do them quietly or politely or by signing a petition on Change.org you get ignored.   

So tell me of any cases you know of in which someone has suffered or died in an ambulance at the protests. Do you think that if protesters let ambulances through we would even get to know about it? I have my doubts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM

And just a word on this:

"...alienating many people who would otherwise have supported their protest..."

Let's see then.

"Insulate Britain are making a very valid point about the poor state of housing which results in seriously higher emissions. Now that I can support!"

"Hang on. They're sitting on the M25! I would have supported their cause* if only they hadn't done that!"

Really??

*("but done nothing...")

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:52 AM

"We've spent the last forty or fifty years "talking about the issues" and DOING next to bugger all about them."

You seem to underestimate the active conviction and call for immediate change from young folks..

- 50 years younger than us...

They are the generation who will inherit the dire consequences of their elders inactivity, or outright denial of impending doom...

They are the effective instruments of real positive change;
who are coming of age and will soon occupy positions of responsibility and power..
Hopefully before it's too late...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 10:01 AM

"Insulate Britain are making a very valid point about the poor state of housing which results in seriously higher emissions. Now that I can support!"

Yeah.. right..

Like that idea would never have occurred to anyone else,
if it wasn't for a bunch of crusading habitual nuisance duffers
disrupting transport systems at a time of national crisis...!!!???

At least they've got us all talking about it.. bollocks...!!!


I'm dismayed at the uncritical support from elelments of the left
for these tools...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 11:44 AM

You seem to underestimate the active conviction and call for immediate change from young folks..

- 50 years younger than us...

You mean the ones that insist that we drop them off at school and take them everywhere in cars? Or the ones who seem incapable of conversation without hand held electronic devices? Or the ones who must have the latest phone while the old one goes into landfill? Let's compare that to when I was in my teens shall we? Walked to school. Went further afield on the bus. Bought stuff in paper bags. Took bottles back to the shop to get the deposit back. Went to the phone box to call people but only if they happened to have a phone. Need I go on? :-D

As to 'elements from the left'. Just who are these elements? Is support for fixing climate change limited to those on the left of the spectrum? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 11:52 AM

DtG - I'm not a dad..
So I don't have to put up with those kinds of spoilt little shits..

Like many other frightened young lefties in the early 1980s,
I decided I couldn't bring any kids into the world of thatcher/reagan
and the kremlin,
poised to bring on nuclear apocalyse..

So I ended up marrying an infant school teacher who loves kids,
but has had enough of other people's little brats at wotk..

Obviously, you know the kind of intelligent activist 21st century yoofs I'm actually talking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:03 PM

.. and regarding uncritical lefty support for misguided road protesters...

Of course anyone with any sense supports fighting climate change,
but most folks object to the fanatical methods of road protest obsessed attention seeking zealots.
Apart from a vociferous pandering minority of liberals/greens/lefty useful idiots...

Yep.. they're a definite gift for pityless patel and her justifications
for harder harsher laws...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

"Like that idea would never have occurred to anyone else..."

This is not about ideas occurring to people (who then sit on their hands). It's about provoking/shaming the powers-that-be to DO something. It's all very well "ideas occurring to us," but "ideas occurring to us" hasn't stopped us from becoming one of the worst-insulated nations in the western world...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:22 PM

We can't get our NHS flu jabs. We had our appointments, which we'd made three weeks ago, cancelled two days ago. We got alternative appointments but they were cancelled this afternoon with the message "try again in early November." What a bloody shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:33 PM

Obviously, you know the kind of intelligent activist 21st century yoofs I'm actually talking about

I don't I'm afraid. Please enlighten me. One of the biggest secondary schools in North Yorkshire is about 500 yards from my front door and most of the pupils seem to be dropped off and picked up by their parents and seem to have an unhealthy pre-occupation with mobile devices. There may be the odd Greta Thunberg but judging by the general behaviour the "active conviction and call for immediate change" takes second place to home comforts. I'm not saying they are bad kids or that they don't care. I'm sure they care about the environment as much as the next person but I think that maybe you are overestimating their commitment rather than anyone underestimating anything. Maybe your wife can confirm that the generation in her care all walk to and from school and do not use mobile devices?

I also still don't know which "elelments of the left" give uncritical support to these "tools"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:37 PM

We'll probably pay for flu jabs at the chemists again..
We were texted and notified of free jabs by our GP weeks ago,
but heard nothing else since.

Last winter we weren't offered free flu jabs until the flu season was nearly over.
By then we'd already paid up for injections well before xmas...

Not a word about covid boosters yet ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:41 PM

DtG - have a look round.. they pop up, easily spotted in social media...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:44 PM

.. one quick identifier is variants on the slogan "At least they get people talking about it"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:01 PM

Who are easily spotted? Leftist elements or intelligent activist 21st century youths? No good looking on social media as all that provides is proof of how many armchair warriors exist. Real activists get out and do something. Most often anonymously as they don't want to get arrested!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:16 PM

I had my flu jab at the doctor’s surgery a couple of weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM

That hot bed of left wing support, The Spectator, has just published this article on BoJo's Walter Mitty act. If even The Spectator can admit he is the shitiest leader we have ever had, how come the right wingers on here are still supporting him?

There's nowt so queer as folk...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:52 PM

"Most often anonymously"..

nail on the head time...???

Now that might get more effective real results done
than the "Ooh, look at me, I'm a heroic protester" showboaters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:54 PM

”If even The Spectator can admit he is the shitiest leader we have ever had, how come the right wingers on here are still supporting him?”

It’s a combination of the power of psychological conditioning (a.k.a. ‘Brainwashing’), and the Goebbels Philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:57 PM

Bugger! Try again…

It’s a combination of the power of psychological conditioning (a.k.a. ‘Brainwashing’) by the Right Wing media , and the Goebbels Philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:27 PM

Well I've just watched one of those Portillo railway episodes, one in which he visited Manchester. There was a detail of three women, suffragettes, who walked into an art gallery and attacked the glass fronts of several paintings (some of which were those of pre-raphaelite tossers) with little toffee hammers. No messing about talking about it, no worries about public condemnation. And guess what. Eventually, women got the vote. Learn from history, or, as the yanks would say, go figure...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 12:21 AM

Mind you, the suffragettes didn't have the internet in them days...

.. we now live in the 21st century...!!!

It's still daft chucking yerself under a race horse...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:50 AM

Each pressure group has its genuine cause that it is trying to gain support for and some in those groups may resort to civil disobedience to bring their cause to public attention. However, I believe that some of those marching down Whitehall, chaining themselves to railings or gluing themselves to the M25, in support of the latest protest to hit the headlines, are there for that very reason - it's in the headlines. They don't really care about the cause. They are there to cause mayhem because they can. If I were to start a protest against the Teletubbies in some headline grabbing way, it wouldn't be long before the anti-brigade were marching shoulder to shoulder with me, at least until the next fad came along.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 04:06 AM

But that is a tricky link to make, Steve. The attack on the art was in 1913, then the during the war most suffragettes suspended action "in the national interest". In 1918 some women over 30 were granted the vote in 1918, with most not getting the vote until 1928.

We need to avoid the pro hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 05:06 AM

Well I think that keeping yourself in the headlines always has a good chance of getting you somewhere. Of course I know that attacking paintings didn't get women the vote, but it put their cause in the headlines, just one of many strategies. Then you have to convince the people who you've made indignant that while they may disapprove of what you're doing, it shouldn't mean they have to disapprove of your cause. Which they are now aware of because of what you are impolitely doing. Being polite means writing to your MP or signing petitions, and we know how far that gets you. Not living near the M25 means that I haven't had the opportunity to be inconvenienced by the protesters, so by all means call me Mr Smug. Lastly, let's try to avoid tarring every road protester with the same brush. They are individual human beings with their own perspectives, not necessarily all sinister middle-class ex-student union rabble-rousers. If you don't know them personally, you simply can't say. That's not being a leftie. That's being fair-minded.

By the way, DMcG, the logical fallacy you refer to is POST hoc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 05:24 AM

It's still daft chucking yerself under a race horse... quote really we all have to die sometime.and it gets you remembered,and contributed to women getting the vote. .....please somebody tell me the point of protest if it has no effect.
perhaps it is not as daft as dying while on the back of a horse fox hunting. or dying like the rector of stiffkey,
or like a neighbour of mine trying to get in to his own house through a lavatory window that was too small and dying of suffocation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 05:54 AM

Was it the nasty bog smell wot suffocated him then? Should he have given it twenty minutes before trying to get in?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 07:01 AM

By the way, DMcG, the logical fallacy you refer to is POST hoc|/i>

Quite correct, my mistake. It happens!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 07:08 AM

I’m astonished no-one seems to have commented on our esteemed (NOT!) PM’s speech to his band of adoring worshippers at the end of the Annual Tory Love-in and Piss-up yesterday. John Crace, as ever, sums it up perfectly…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 08:17 AM

In case anyone wondered, here is Bozzer's speech fact checked.

And there are STILL people willing to support him!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:02 AM

"If  you don't know them personally, you simply can't say."

I have never met Boris so all that follows is based on my own observation. I think that he is a pathological liar and a fantasist. I think he has little interest in politics and is most likely not even a tory. He appears to know little or nothing about business and shows no inclination to learn anything about it. His mantra seems to be 'fuck business'. Oh and he also seems to like rewriting history, but not in a woke way.

And yet, and yet he is the prime minister. Such are the times we are living in.

He just wants to be liked and will say whatever he thinks people want to hear.

A lot of the tory party members, especially the mps, are just riding on his coattails, hanging on for dear life. They are in for a bumpy ride, as is the rest of the country. Fuck knows when and where it will all end.

I did see mention of a comment in his speech about Brexit helping to put an end to the plans for the ESL. Who would have thought that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:39 AM

Yep, yet another Bozzer fantasy says Gary Lineker

Maybe we should have footballers running the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 11:27 AM

On another forum a poster said, “I find it really hard to understand how people can swallow the bullshit that gushes from Johnson’s mouth”.

My reply was, “They believe it because it’s what they want to hear. Johnson is a past-master in the dark arts of gaslighting and dog-whistling (as, indeed, are his sycophantic acolytes in the Parliamentary Party), and he knows the truth embodied in the Goebbels Philosophy.”

It’s the founding principle of the Populism now espoused by our Far-Right party-in-government, and I see no evidence of any of the other parties having the faintest notion of how to combat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 12:01 PM

Boris says that he has sorted social care. Well he hasn't BUT at least he has made a start unlike all the previous governments. As usual there are no details yet apart from the planned NI increase next year. We will have to wait and see if he follows through on that. His plan at the moment is more concerned with people preserving their wealth rather than how social care is organised and paid for.

In an ideal world all the parties would get together to come up with a long term plan for social care. I don't think i will live long enough to ever see that happening. As it is, Boris has not even bothered consulting his own party about social care.

So we end up with a tory party proposing to raise taxes to pay for the NHS and social care, and the labour party voting against it. Who saw that coming? Now Labour might well think that there is a fairer way to raise the money. Why haven't they told us? You would hope that they had given the matter some thought before Boris announced his so called plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 01:13 PM

"If you don't know them personally, you simply can't say."

Er, when I said that I wasn't referring to politicians in the public eye but to the dozens/hundreds of road protesters, who are very likely a disparate bunch of people with all manner of perspectives. I doubt that you, Doug, pfr or I know a single one of them. That's why I don't like the application of the broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 01:22 PM

I think the Labour party do have alternatives to taxing the poor, Rain Dog. Higher taxes for Rich. Make sure the big corporates pay their whack. Close the offshoring legal loopholes. They have espoused many such. Trouble is the mega rich own the media and most politicians dance to their tune. Sadly, that now includes the current Labour executive so we cannot expect them to oppose the reverse Robin Hood policies currently in favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 01:23 PM

Oh. 2000! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 01:43 PM

"I doubt that you, Doug, pfr or I know a single one of them"

I'm at ease with that..

I've known more than my fair share of political nutters [on my own side] in the past..

I was one of them before I came close to doing something so stupidly vandalistic as a futile protest in my mid 20s
I'd have ended up in prison,
but thankfully came to my senses...

Let's just say I was a militant cyclist anti-cars protester.. and leave it at that......


Remember, I studied and lived in BRISTOL for years..
[look up Stokes Croft Road, as a nexus for revolutionary misfits/nutcases...]

.. and my roots and current resting place aint that far from Glastonbury...

In fact I'm always only a phone call away from getting back in touch with a bunch of 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:03 PM

I too have been on lots of demos and picket lines and I've been threatened not only by the police (also whilst on my bike as it happens) but also by the establishment in my trade union (which was called the NUT in those days). I've been to many a frenetic far-left meeting in an upstairs smoke-filled room. In my somewhat naive yoof I admit to having tended to see things in too much black and white. Just like those party conferences we've just endured, those rooms were bubbles insulated from the outside world. Many of my socialist mates were revolutionaries, but I was never that and I didn't join anything other than the Anti-Nazi League. I like to think I take more of a measured view of things these days, hopefully informed by better understanding of the issues of the day with just a smattering of pragmatism thrown in. I've also been one of those lucky buggers who bought a cheap house with a little mortgage just before the era of house-price booms set in and who has enjoyed a secure-job-for-long-as-I-wanted-it. But I've never shed my leftie predilections and I love to be called a leftie. I won't bother listing what that actually means, but at least I've managed to avoid conspiratorial thoughts to the effect that everyone I see on the telly in a protest is a faux-leftie-ex-student-union-middle-class-showboating-git with a hint of the earth-mother thrown in...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:06 PM

I forgot to mention that those times were spent in Poplar and Stepney, in the East End...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

if i was in charge in the uk , i would offer all car or van drivers who are also signing on the chance to keep their dole money if they did two OR 3 days a week training as an HGV DRIVER,
I WOULD MAKE THE SAME OFFER TO PEOPLE WHO WERE PREPARED TO LEARN THE SKILLS OF FRUIT PICKING [TWO DAYS A WEEK] With two days off to recover because it is hard work, eventualy there might be a possibilty that these people could have jobs full time

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 05:29 PM

My son who used to work for the local council HAD a HGV licence. It has now lapsed because he changed his employment.

At the moment, due to cock up beyond his control, he can no longer fulfil his normal job (although that will hopefully change very soon) and is out of work.

However despite having once held a HGV licence the cost and the time of having it reinstated is prohibitive. Somewhere about the £2,000 mark.

With the cost of training, in excess of what my sone would have to pay, and the length of time involved it is not realistic to train new drivers for this current event.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 06:23 PM

There have been well documented problems at the DVLA. The bosses blame the unions and the unions blame the bosses.

"This week the DfT admitted in response to a parliamentary question that there were 56,144 applications for vocational driving licences – for lorry and bus drivers – awaiting processing. It said of these, about 4,000 were for provisional licences, while the “vast majority” were for renewals. In most cases, drivers could continue to drive while the application was being processed.

The DVLA said provisional licences were being issued in about five days but conceded that “more complex transactions”, for example if medical investigations were needed, may face “longer delays.”"

The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 03:03 AM

in answer to raggytash , this problem has been caused by the uk government, perhaps they should then to some extent fund the training what alternative is there?
in the meantime my suggestion for training fruit pickers[ another skilled job]is imo a good one, the uk government has to find a solution to a problem that has been caused by brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 03:20 AM

According to Johnson and sundry members of The Johnson Gang, the shortage of HGV drivers is a ‘world-wide’ problem, exacerbated by the Covid-19 pandemic, nothing at all to do with Brexit.

And our esteemed and revered Prime Minister, pillar of moral rectitude that he is, would never set out to deceive us, would he? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 03:28 AM

A point I have made many times, and no doubt will many times more, is that every company I have ever worked in has a staff shortage. That is no good thing, of course, but it can be managed by overtime, buying back leave and so on. It only becomes a problem when the staff shortage becomes so severe that those techniques are not enough and it turns into shortage of product.

That there are HGV shortages in Poland, or whatever, is not good but they have been able to manage it via cabotage and drivers from elsewhere and similar techniques so it does not flow over into product shortages.

You cannot just treat HGV driver shortages and goods shortages as essentially equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 03:42 AM

Indeed, DMcG, indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM

The prime minister and every cabinet minister have clearly been primed to claim at every juncture that it's not this country's fault, it's global, when challenged about the crisis that this country is facing. Well yes. But we are in a much worse state than many other countries because we have under-invested in the NHS for a decade, we've converted to a penal benefits system that has catapulted hundreds of thousands of people into food-bank poverty, we ignored all warnings about future pandemics years ago, we recklessly went ahead with brexit, we cruise along thinking that we don't have to train for skills because foreigners are happy to come here, allowing ruthless profiteering employers to drive down wages, and, well, in a nutshell, events always overtake us. We never see things coming. Oh, and the last time I looked into it we were the only country with queues at petrol pumps. So we lack the skills and we have low pay and we have millions on benefits facing a bleak winter and we have five-year waiting lists.

But what's this I hear? We are going to magic up a high-skill, high-wage workforce with minimal immigration! All I can say to that is that we've heard about the magic to come but we've heard nothing about the method. It's all words and no plan. He genuinely doesn't know what to do. He'd better start praying that we have a mild winter and no flu epidemic. And just wait 'til April when he'll have to lift the energy price cap by a few hundred quid for the millions of families already on their uppers with high rents, the sudden loss of twenty quid a week, inflation going through the roof, shortages on supermarket shelves...

Merry Christmas everybody!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 07:26 AM

Just been watching a repeat of Johnson’s so-called ‘speech’ at the Tories’ Annual Love-in and Piss-up, and the standing ovation at the end.

What on Earth do those people have in place of grey-matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 10:16 AM

"Tory MP James Brokenshire dies aged 53 after lung cancer battle"

No.. I'm not a cruel lefty thug who'd mock the death of this fellow human being..

But what a perfect surname for a tory MP...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:42 PM

You are quite correct Sandman, the government could and should provide the necessary training (free of charge).

Had they been any sort of decent government they could and should have done this months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 03:35 AM

Anyone seen "Ridley Road" on the BBC? Deserves a thread of its own but as it is likely to cause political comment, I'll mention it here.

Set in the early 60's against the backdrop of the rising National Socialist League. I was amazed by how much has not changed :-( Minority groups are still blamed for the countries ills and people are still falling for it. People fighting against injustice are still targeted by the police. Politicians and the media are still preying on peoples fears. It's a brilliant drama but who would have thought it could have been a blueprint for today's extreme politics!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:17 AM

I just read that farmers in Lincolnshire (county north of our Norfolk) are now offering £30 an hour to attract workers to come and harvest broccoli!! I expect this was always done by European migrant workers, but the sad thing is that our British people don't want to work in the fields nowadays, not even for £30 an hour!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:32 AM

But you support capitalism don't you, Eliza? Wasn't it Maggie Thatcher that introduced the Yuppie "screw everybody else" economy? Didn't your illustrious leader just say that high wages were more important than people's lives? Aren't the Tory Party blaming those damned Europeans for all our ills?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM

It was not always done by migrant workers Senoufou. I remember when it was not unusual for people on the dole to work on the land for cash in hand. All off the books of course.

Picking crops is seasonal work of course. Most people would prefer an all year round job,if given the choice, rather than a seasonal one. In recent times this has been done by migrant workers, a lot of whom would just come here during the crop season.

It is hard bloody work. Someone i know did some fruit picking last year. Long hours, encouraged to work 7 days a week, poor conditions as well. The crop does have to be picked quickly in order for the shops to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 05:45 AM

Along with other young people during my schooldays, I used to go beet-singling and spud-bashing to earn some pocket money. The farmer would send his beat up old van round to pick us up from our road-end. Sore hands from beet-singling, sore back from spud bashing, and sore ears from the effing and blinding of the farmer at us because we weren’t doing it properly, or fast enough, or both. Crap money, but better than nowt.

My mum also did both when I was a child and she didn’t have a permanent full-time job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 05:46 AM

Well, in order to fend off inflation, the thirty-quid broccoli-pickers would have to pick it three times as fast! :-) ...And have we got the appetite for three times as many helpings of that boring veg... But seriously, we've bumped along the bottom for many years apropos of productivity in this country. I want to know how the Tories intend to raise productivity in order to justify his dream of a high-wage economy. Otherwise, higher wages means higher prices, companies unable to pay them going out of business, inflation, more people pitched into poverty, more food banks... So what's the plan? Eh??

Ridley Road is superb. I'm not one of those who binge-watches on iPlayer. One week at a time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 06:02 AM

Dave the Gnome:
Didn't your illustrious leader just say that high wages were more important than people's lives?

No, he didn't. Much as some people seem to love misquoting him, The Guardian seems to quote his actual words: In a BBC interview on Friday before the Conservative party conference, the prime minister was challenged that there was no measure for determining whether those who were more deprived were really catching up with those who were better off under the policy.

Johnson replied: “I’ve given you the most important metric – never mind life expectancy, never mind cancer outcomes – look at wage growth.

So he was not saying wage growth was more important, only that it was a better 'metric' (measure) of levelling up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 06:24 AM

With regard to farming and farm workers wages, we should remember that as customers we have some of the lowest food prices in the world. This is driven by the supermarkets who, in order to attract us the customers, are continually forcing the food producers to cut costs.


Which report on food prices from 2019


"Globally, after Singapore and the US, the UK spends the lowest proportion of household income on food shopping, lower than our European neighbours Germany, France and Spain.

We’ve compared how much popular foods cost in 1988 with the equivalent cost in today’s money, accounting for inflation, and the actual cost in June 2019. All foods we investigated are cheaper to buy now, apart from white fish."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 06:42 AM

So how did he think that would be interpreted, Nigel, with those brushing-aside "never minds?" Not clever, that, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 06:58 AM

Well he doesn’t have to persuade the likes of Nigel does he? They would accept any lie Johnson spun, and those are legion, without question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 07:47 AM

My quesruin would be in what sense is that a better metric? A different one, certainly, but to assert us is better is to say the others are inferior, which is certainly open to challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 07:53 AM

In fact, let's try a thought experiment. We will offer you a thousand a year more, but the more you take, the earlier we shoot you. do you take the money? I don't. which suggests wages are not more important than life expectancy for me.
Your view may differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 08:28 AM

Not got round to watching Ridley Road yet.. So no spoilers please..

I'd be a good Jewish spy infilrating British fascists..
I've got blue eyes and a foreskin...!!!

There's bound to be closet gay pretend homophobe fascists keen to check out new knobs in the urinals.

Seriously, I secretly followed a thread on a well known white power forum,
where they hotly debated if they would allow and trust quarter Jew Mischlings [like me] to join the cause...

Short answer - No...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 12:03 PM

I suppose it is a better metric if you want to be measured on wealth rather than health. In other words if you think that wages are more important than lives.

Give it a rest, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 12:09 PM

I grew up in the 1970s taking it as a fact of life that succesful business men
dropped dead in their 50s..

Why they aspired to take early retirement in their 40s...

Well at least that was the impression I got from the News of that era......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 05:00 PM

Ist episode of Ridley Road was very good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 06:15 PM

I binge watched them all in one go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 10:01 AM

Things are certainly not getting easier. Though the government have had to deal with the effects of brexit, covid in the uk and the associated problems with world trade, they cannot keep burying their heads in the sand.

There are no easy solutions but they do have to start addressing the problem. Let us hope that there are still not any containers full of government ppe sitting on the quays.

From The Lodestar

It's all going tits up at UK box ports

"The UK’s main container ports are overwhelmed with unclaimed imports and starting to refuse the restitution of empty boxes urgently needed back in Asia.

And other North European ports are also heavily congested, but the acute HGV driver shortage in the UK has extended container dwell times significantly in past weeks, with the country’s main box hubs now “in danger of grinding to a complete halt”, according to one industry observer.

Yesterday, Felixstowe suspended the restitution of Evergreen, Maersk and CMA CGM empty returns.

Other carriers are also expected to be restricted by the port, but there is no indication as yet that there could be a blanket stop on receiving empty equipment, or that export deliveries could be halted.

In a customer advisory, Evergreen says the block on the return of its empties at Felixstowe was “due to the large volume of import containers coming into the port” against the backdrop of “a well-publicised national driver shortage”.

It added: “Import container dwell times are increasing as a result and causing port congestion.”

The carrier said that since the Felixstowe gate had closed, its restitution team had received “a surge of e-mail enquiries” and asked customers to “bear with us” while it processed them.

“Unfortunately, we have no choice but to temporarily direct all empty units to Tilbury, Liverpool, Teesport and the port of Tyne,” it said, adding that the drop-off locations were “subject to change”, and suggested that customers “contact our restitution team before returning any containers”.

Evergreen said it would contribute to the extra costs by waiving drop-off charges at the new locations, but shippers are being saddled with substantial additional wasted journey and additional haulage charges. Indeed, one forwarder told The Loadstar the extra cost was as much as £500 ($680) per box.

“Merchant hauliers are killing us, charging between £300 and £500 additional for redirecting the empty to another port,” he said.

Meanwhile, in a customer advisory today, Maersk says the empty stop at Felixstowe was due to “the high volume of empty containers on the terminal”, adding: “In giving you this information we hope to avoid further congestion and port congestion.

“We advise that you steer merchant haulage empty returns to London Gateway,” said the carrier, adding that it could also accommodate empty restitution at its feeder ports in the north of the country.

“We understand that this is far from ideal and continue to follow the situation closely with the port, and are looking at ways to reopen as soon as possible,” said Maersk.

Another forwarder said: “It’s getting worse at Felixstowe as the day goes on – now you can’t deliver boxes back there and hauliers are in the wrong places, which is also having further impact on tonight/tomorrow’s collections.

“It’s going very much ‘tits-up’ very rapidly, with knock-on effects causing greater disruption than the obvious congestion – it’s all being pushed back through the chain. This will be a major issue by next week, I suspect.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 10:56 AM

Next, boris announces world beating scheme to imediately repurpose congested dock yards of thousands of empty containers
as levelling-up social housing estates...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 11:58 AM

Well containers have and are being used for a short term solution to the housing shortage. A modern version of the prefab.

Container housing

Of course we could start to make better use of the available housing in the UK.

AirBnBs in Margate 'damaging' community

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 06:41 AM

Containers are already being re-purposed as refugee housing in Malta Irish Times

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 08:02 AM

As per my earlier post, containers have been used for housing here in the UK. Ealing council have been using them since 2017 according to this article from The Guardian in 2019.

'They just dump you here': the homeless families living in shipping containers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 01:39 PM

Well I've just heard Prince Hypocrite rattling on about environmental issues. He runs his 51-year-old Aston Martin on surplus English wine and cheese whey (sure he does...). He avoids meat and fish two days a week and dairy one day a week. Cor, that's hard! He wriggled when he was challenged about the cost of heating all those palaces. What didn't come up in the chat was the fact that the royals own thousands of acres of grouse moor, which are a disaster for biodiversity and which have a huge carbon footprint. Gamekeepers are famous for illegally driving some raptors almost to extinction and for slaughtering smaller mammals that compete with or predate the grouse. All that burning doesn't just pollute the air, it also damages the peat underneath, one of the most important carbon sinks in the country. Kate, William and Harry are all keen shooters. Why, last summer they even took little Prince George, aged seven, on his first shoot!

Pass the vomit bucket...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 21 - 04:22 AM

There is a lot in the press about the government failings in handling the pandemic which are recorded in a new joint report from two Parliamentary Committees.

As so often, the articles I have seen don't tell you how to read the actual report, and as most of you will know, I like to start there, not with people's interpretations of it.

You can find the actual report here. It is the "Sixth Report - Coronavirus: lessons learned to date" you need.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 21 - 06:00 AM

I strong recommend people look at the report. Unlike many official documents, it is extremely readable, and addresses many important issues. One area in particular in the first hundred or so numbered paragraphs is the nature of the SAGE group and records how its advice differed from the approaches being adopted in Asia and recommended by WHO. The government stressed a lot in the the early days, and is stressing again today, that they followed the scientific advice and this report concurs: there was little to separate the SAGE groups advice from the government's actions. However, as paragraphs 96-102 discuss, despite the difficulties, the government did have the responsibility to challenge the advice, particularly where it differed from the approaches adopted in Asia, which seemed to be successful in bring the disease under control. It notes in paragraph 112 that only one of the participants in SAGE was not from a UK institution.

As I say, worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 03:32 AM

I have not read it all but I gather the government come out in a bad light. Apart from with vaccinations. Which were developed by scientists, administered by the NHS and the government had little to do with. Boris will still claim it as a personal triumph and the idiots will still believe him :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 06:23 AM

That is true, Dave, but so does SAGE. Far too sure of itself, given the limited data. Far too unwilling to look at how Asia was handling things and so forth.

But crucially, they are clear this does not let the government off the hook. "We were following the science" is regarded as threadbare. The government was always at liberty to impose stricter requirements. Follow science but do more, as it were. This is what Asia's successes suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 11:33 AM

This is so typical of the shite this government try to pedal to the country.

UK Border Force could be given immunity over refugee deaths

I still don't think that the UK will push back any vessel in the channel. It is just shite talk from people who realise there are no easy solutions to dealing with this problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 04:10 PM

Following on from my attack on the ultimate royal hypocrite, here's a timely piece in today's Guardian, written by Chris Packham, in which he calls for the royals to rewild their vast estates.

On the eve of the crucial Cop26 summit in Glasgow, at which members of the British monarchy are due to appear, the royals with their estates will find themselves forced to pick a side in this historic battle. The astonishing 1.4% of the country the royals own (that’s an area of land twice the size of Greater London) define some of the most nature-depleted landscapes in the world. In their more than 345,000 hectares (850,000 acres), huge areas of grouse moor and deer-stalking estates are, in the name of sport, kept artificially barren where exquisite temperate rainforest could and should grow. Grouse moors in particular – considered by experts to be ecological disaster zones – are regularly and deliberately burned. By annihilating the vegetation (and just about everything else that lives there), grouse moor defenders claim to be conserving historic landscapes while actually only preserving a colonial-era attitude to our precious natural world.

Elsewhere, royal land further undermines the environmental leadership that some royals have sincerely attempted. For all his love of tree planting, Prince Charles’s Duchy of Cornwall sadly has just 6% tree coverage compared with the EU average of 38%. No amount of cheese and wine-powered Aston Martins can fix that one. Meanwhile the Queen’s Sandringham estate, campaigners estimate, has barely 12% of its 20,000 acres set aside for priority habitats according to estimates by campaign group Who Owns Norfolk?. With Prince William recently taking to the BBC to champion rewilding, one wonders if the royals are actually aware of the current state of their own land – although pictures of William out hunting with his son do continue to jar with me. I do so wish we could meet and address these issues.

Well done Chris for being a damn sight more measured, probably a damn sight more effective as a result, than I am...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 06:52 PM

.. and he's still a big fan of punk rock...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 09:23 PM

Yeah, and Franco was a daily communicant...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 08:05 AM

These arrogant shits who glue themselves to busy roads causing mayhem for ordinary folks trying to live their lives, should be glued to prison cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 08:28 AM

From the recent 'on the road' video interviews I've seen last night,
some of them seriously remind me of the mentally unwell people
my sister used to congregate with on single-issue obsessions and activism...

They are like cults...!!!

Some topics just bring them together...

My sister's mental health problems caused untold damage to my family,
and I am still caught up in fall-out of the extra problems she left behind when she passed...

To her fellow campaigners, my sister was probably regarded as a champion activist..

To her family and any ordinary folks, she was unforgivingly intolerant and an obnoxious attention seeking martyr...

She'd have fitted in well with insulate Britain, yet another bandwagon for her to sieze upon, and try to become a public figurehead for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 10:00 AM

So you're now tarring protesters who you don't know in person with the mental illness brush. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Yes, if that's the way you want to distort what I've written..

But a study of the relationship between extremist protest and mental health,
is a valid angle for serious debate.

If I was doing the same kind of higher education courses now as I did 35 to 40 years ago,
I'd quite possibly consider it as a proposal for a dissertation..

When ordinary folks complain that these protesters are annoying antisocial nutters,
they have a very fair point...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 10:56 AM

And the people sitting in the jams behind the wheels of massive 4x4s, fuming away, too thick to switch off their pollution-belching engines, are not annoying, antisocial nutters then...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:19 AM

Steve - you are placing yourself so far out on a fragile limb,
with your unconditional moral superiority fanboy worship for these protesters..

They can't keep playing the sweet harmless middle class granny card indefinitely.

At the very least ASBOs and electronic tags should be considered..
.. and some are probable candidates for being sectioned...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:25 AM

They are not even proper "anti-car" road protesters..

So leave obvious misdirection out...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:40 AM

I have asked before and didn't get an answer, PFR.

What is your answer? How would you protest about global warming? Sitting in front of a keyboard just doesn't cut it for me. And, yes, I was on the extinction rebellion march in Leeds about 2 years ago but don't know if that did any good either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

I wouldn't do what these useful idiot inept sales reps for the home insulation industry are doing...

What I am doing is anything positive and constructive I am capable of,
which could convince floating [and ex] voters to bring back a Labour Govt..

.. Or at least kick out the tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 01:08 PM

.. and what just popped up on my youtube feed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxw-qHGUlvQ&ab_channel=GuardianNews


This is the Guardian - not the mail or telegraph..

I only got so far down the comments before I got a bit bored with intelligent witty folks,
who share [Confirmation bias is fair enough in small doses] my opinions on this issue...

How much further down to find Steve's comments...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 01:23 PM

.. and if you are heading over to youtube..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLITXTXBS1s&ab_channel=cassetteboy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 02:00 PM

What I am doing is anything positive and constructive I am capable of,
which could convince floating [and ex] voters to bring back a Labour Govt..

Basically, sweet FA to protest against global warming then?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 02:08 PM

More sanctimonious bollocks then..

I've been making serious self sacrifices since the late 1970s,
which have had serious adverse consequences for my career and finances...

That's my lifetime dedication to maintaining a minimalist footprint green lifestyle,
while maintaiing some necessary connection with the modern world...

How many cars have you owned, how many air-miles have you flown, then...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 02:56 PM

Still evading the issue, PFR. Nothing to do with me. How would you protest against global warming?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 03:33 PM

Get off yer high horse...

.. though at least horses are greener transport..


I'm bored of playing silly buggers with holier than thou armchair street protest warriors...

btw.. I've never owned a motor vehicle of any description,
and only ever flown one journey - to Corfu and back in 1987...

The personal IS political...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:06 PM

They should be given a good soaking from water cannon or something more nasty!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:43 PM

You haven't told us how many of your sacrifices were your decisions or were forced on you by the vicissitudes of life. Don't bother to tell me. I'm not in any way judgemental of people I don't know, just, maybe, a bit judgemental of the things they claim... I find it ironic that you seem to be slightly the opposite...

With hundreds of others, including the missus and our young kids, I lay down on the road in Kensington Church Street to protest against nuclear weapons. We were pretending to be the nuclear dead. In the 80s if I remember correctly. We closed the road for hours, and I didn't notice any mentally-sick people or middle-class grandstanding nutters. Funny thing is, pfr, I was actually there. I don't consciously associate with nutters, even if I think they're on my side. But I was there to see what was going on, what the dynamic was. Perhaps you should take yourself off to the next road protest. There's the possibility that it might just open your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

Far far better things to conservatively do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:50 PM

We are looking forward to our £300 winter fuel allowance!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 05:04 PM

insulate britain are lazy fucking scum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 05:09 PM

"Lazy"??? Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 05:10 PM

It's dead simple, PFR. You believe that the M25 protesters are doing it wrong. I just want to know what you would have them do instead. No high horse. No bollocks. Just a simple question. If you have a more effective way of protesting, we would like to hear about it. It may catch on!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 05:14 PM

Nice to see you taking a leaf out of Angela Raynor's book, Bonzo. There may be hope for you yet :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:00 PM

Actually, Dave, and I think I might have said this before, I'm not sure that the TACTICS of the protesters play well with most people. My response to that is, big deal. They are out there taking action (lazy my arse!). I remember being in an East London NUT meeting with my mate Blair Peach, a frighteningly huge number of years ago. Whatever the issue to hand was, I can't remember now. But we were waffling along, talking about raising the thing with this, that and the other, writing letters, bringing it up in school union meetings, etc. Blair had a terrible stammer, but, in his frustration at the indecision of the meeting, he stood up, totally out of order, stammer-free, and roared out, "But when are we actually going to stop talking to ourselves and TAKE SOME BLOODY ACTION!"

That always stayed with me...

If only pfr could have met such a man...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:02 PM

Steve - you protested donkeys years ago before the internet was even a twinkle in anyone's imagination..

well done for that..

I marched for the miners;
and occupied an accademic faculty for a week,
for fuck knows who can remember now whatever cause that was for..???

[Not sure if I was an actual fully accepted student socialist worker then, they were really stuck up elitists on our campus].

I protested in a rabble yelling abuse at a tory mp arrogant enough to visit our lefty Polytechnic..

Even came too close to chucking a spunk filled johnny at the queen mum,
before I snapped out of it and realised the crowd would rip me apart
before the police even got to me...

.. and various other youthful futile petty protests...

I do still wish I had set fire to that rolls royce,
though again had sense enough to withdraw sensibly in tactical retreat.
The fate of the owners golf clubs had to make do as a symbolic gesture of class war defiance, and militant cycling..

.. and I wrote some pithy punk rock protest songs..


40 years ago, I made serious principled decisions how I would not live my life,
and stubbornly stuck to them no matter how self defeating it's turned out for my financial well being..

[It's a lot easier being an eco warrior in a North Wales TeePee, on a trust fund...]


However our living in the past, dwelling on old battle glories, is not helping persuade back near enough Labour voters NOW...


Just rewatched the first episode of "The Young Ones" this evening..
We can't stay being Rick for all the rest of our lives...

Then again, I have avoided ending up a middle class self-rightious cartoon lefty blowhard...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:11 PM

Dtg - stop repeating yourself dictating terms..

We had enough of that with Jim.

I've already answered you in my own way...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:14 PM

You posted that before you read my last post. I'm not going to list the pickets and protests I've been on, why would I. I've had my ups and downs as a leftie and I've even been excoriated by people ostensibly on my own side. That's leftie life. Six in the morning on a picket line, outside a school miles from my own when I had to show up for work a couple of hours later, sub-zero temperatures, supporting school cleaners and dinner ladies being shat on by a supposedly Labour council...

Been there, done it, got the t-shirt, even though a bloody duffel coat would have been nice...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:26 PM

Bullshit, pfr. You know full well that politeness and tenderness gets nothing done. You don't like the road protests. For the nth time, I'm not that keen either. So what would you do instead? Write to our MPs? Start up a cosy petition on Change.org? Do nothing?? Honestly, mate, you need to either answer or to lose credibility...

Here's a nice bit of context. Today, it's been revealed that the US, India and China are all going to increase their use of coal. Remind me to recycle my next plastic milk bottle in order to prevent the planet's doom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 06:45 PM

Still got my 1980s Donkey Jacket which I defiantly wore everywhere.
Haven't fetched it out to look at for over 20 years.
Doubt if it will still fit me - maybe the moths have had it...???

We are on the same side, with presumably similar goals,
and aspirations for a better future before it is too late.
I made a decision in the early 80s not to bring kid's into a world
with what was then such an uncertain nuclear wasteland future.
So I don't have a personal vested stake in the extended longevity of humanity.
Apart from my innate affinity for some kinds of people..

Like it or lump it, I've never been one of those lefties who over-estimates the effective power of disruptive street protests...

WE do not have enough time left to squander on stupid backfiring tactics, and loose cannon liability individuals and groups
who do our progressive cause more harm than good..

Seems simple enough to me...???

You're right, we don't know who insulate Britain, and their real leaders are.
so I have no firm reasons not to be suspicious of them and their motives...

But I do generally trust my hard earned judgement of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 03:11 AM

No, you have not answered, PFR. You just prevaricate and resort to what you think may be insults. You should know by now, neither work with me. If you don't know what you would have them do, fine. Just say so but remember it is far easier to criticise than do something constructive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:18 AM

I'd be more than happy to use more coal, and bring back steam engines!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 09:17 AM

watch these fucking idiots

They deserve to be mown down by the traffic. Could you imagine the French police being so gentle!!!!!!!!!!!!

They should be marched away at gunpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 09:32 AM

Dtg - you seem willfully unable to read what I AM saying and joining the dots for yourself...???

From my point of view you are taking on the self appointed role of a nagging bossy debate agenda terms setting 'moderator'...

We had one of those before, and as much as I liked, respected and supported the esteemed old bloke, mudcat made him unwelcome and permanently gone.

we don't need a replacement.

I will not be nagged into conforming to your demands.

I live a principled minimal footprint green lifestyle, have done all my life, and do not need to make grand public virtue signalling protest of my wokey greeness...

I'll leave that to multiple car owning frequent flier muddle class eco revolutionaries...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 09:56 AM

It's beginning to look a lot like Brexit

Let's play dominoes at Christmas ..............................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:10 AM

According the Wikipedia "The early 18th century saw the "game of domino" surfacing in Europe, appearing first in Italy, before rapidly spreading to Austria, southern Germany and France. From France, the game was introduced to England by the late 1700s, purportedly brought in French prisoners-of-war."

That all sounds dangerously European, even EU.   Maybe grandma is up for a game of 'British Bulldog.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:14 AM

PFR - I am not making any demands at all. Just asking a question that you have chosen not to answer. That's absolutely fine by me and your lack of alternatives to the M25 protest seems, to me, to indicate that you do not have one. Fair enough. I don't know what is the best form of protest either.

I have no need to signal anything wokey (your term) as I am neither middle class, multiple car owning nor a frequent flyer. If you chose to fire off broadsides you really do need to chose your targets more carefully. Oh, and I do not have multiple electronic music making gadgets either :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:46 AM

It's a trade off balance..

One new fuzz box is offset by not buying any new trousers for at least 3 years...

btw.. no need for you thinking I'm getting at you personally..
.. Unless you are feeling guilty about something or other..

I'm just having a chuckle with Bonzo style language and stereotypes..

For all his faults and prejudices, he's actually not always wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:48 AM

Another murdered MP. How bloody awful...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:53 AM

Bugger :-(

David Amess

The world is, sadly, full of nutters

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:57 AM

"They deserve to be mown down by the traffic..."

Alternatively, we could agree to continue to abide by the rule of law...

By the way, if you like nice conspiracy theories, there's a current one that sez that no road protesters will be thrown in jail just before the COP26. Far too embarrassing to have right-minded environmental campaigners behind bars whilst the bigwigs are talking bollocks about the climate emergency...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 10:59 AM

PFR - Yes, I know it isn't personal and, no, I don't feel guilty about anything.

I have bought hardly any new clothes or furniture for what must be 5 years now! All charity shop stuff (Apart from underwear!) Not out of necessity but because it is a greener thing to do. I also walk or cycle where I can, never buy highly processed food and knit my own petrol. (NB. One of the previous statements is false)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:06 AM

Of course, killing anyone, MP or not, is terrible. That he was doing so at his surgery is doubly tragic, because, like Jo Cox who was killed at hers, it can only make MPs more wary of going to surgeries at all, which will reduce their links to their constituents further. This is tragic whichever party the MP is a member of and we need to look again at how to protect them when they are meeting constituents.

I will, however, hold off talk of 'nutters'. We don't know enough about the perpetrator yet, and it may turn out that 'despairing' is a better fit. I don't excuse, but I would still like to understand what the assailant's state was.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:22 AM

Sorry DMcG. Maybe nutter is the wrong term for the perpetrator but anyone who purposely kills another human being is not a full shilling. I have been despairing of world politics for the last 5 years but I have not stabbed anyone. Yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:34 AM

Dave, the charity shop/thrift store shopping isn't just greener, it's very practical. At least for the time being people are setting aside some fairly new, rarely used, really good stuff that I could never have afforded new. And all because they have the next big thing at their house (for many these days it is an Instapot or an Air Fryer). I'm happy to use the electric skillet or convection toaster oven at my house or rehome it to family or via eBay.) And if anyone is in the market for really good crock pots, they're filling the thrift store shelves now.

As to the death of an MP, that is horrible. Here in the US it seems there are some congressional folks who rarely if ever see their constituents even in controlled (safe) settings, and this kind of thing gives them all the more excuse to not start seeing their voters now. I imagine it's the same over there. (US Congressperson Gabby Giffords was shot at one of her in-person events, and she miraculously survived a serious head injury, but that was mostly due to good luck and the close-by surgeons at the University of Arizona hospital system.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:38 AM

I never wear long trousers, I have no long-sleeve shirts, I don't wear socks and my footwear consists exclusively of cheap sandals bought at Mountain Warehouse (I do have a single shirt, jacket, trousers and pair of black shoes for weddings and funerals. I've had those shoes for 35 years :-)) If you expect me to wear a tie you can go to hell. I don't have any big, thick coats and I wouldn't wear them, and I have no sweaters or cardies and I can't abide slippers. I buy two or three cheap flowery shirts per annum. But we are of this world, and everything I DO buy seems to be made in China. My very large informal garden is operated on organic lines and I grow a lot of veg. I have a considerable "wild" area, and the perimeter consists of nettles, brambles and brushwood, fantastic for wildlife. My house is four miles from town. The cycle ride thereto is very dangerous. Without a car, no-one would ever live in this house. The days of the horse and cart are long gone. There is next to no public transport here, and in any case the nearest road is a ten-minute walk away. So I'm not going to apologise for running a car. I passed the MOT two days ago and noted that in the last year I did about 6000 miles. On a (very necessary) hundred-mile round trip to the hospital on Tuesday I got 60.5 miles to the gallon.

I'm not skint and I have no debts. This house is mine. I wouldn't say that I live frugally, as I don't need to, but neither do I splash out. Since 2010, before which we hardly ever left this country, we've had about seven or eight holidays in Spain, Italy and Greece. I'm hardly what you might call a frequent flyer, but yes I've flown in planes a few times. We've had double glazing fitted all round at some expense, which keeps the house warmer and reduces our fuel consumption. We have multifuel stoves in two rooms on which we burn some smokeless fuel and quite a lot of wood (which I season) from our own garden. Dutch Elm disease is a curse but it does have that upside for us.

I do some things right and a few things wrong, but I don't appreciate being lectured to by to people who at one turn plead poverty and at another turn challenge me for doing things they don't do but which, for all I know, they might well do if they had similar (modest) resources to me. Not that anyone here fits that bill...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:41 AM

anyone who purposely kills another human being is not a full shilling

My wife has just remarked that Priti Patel might think this a perfect time to reintroduce the death penalty - only for very exceptional circumstances, naturally (at the moment.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:50 AM

Indeed, DMcG. I would expect nothing less from her!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:55 AM

Conservative MP Sir David Amess has died after being stabbed at his constituency surgery at Southend West this afternoon. He came from a humble East End background and was an animal loving MP. A 25 year old man has been arrested. Terribly sad. RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 12:14 PM

Steve - when folks, friend or foe, start acting high and mighty.. preaching at, or ganging up on me.
I will respond by taking the piss..

That is a very traditional British defence mechanism...

But today another MP has been brutally murdered.
So at such a time for sombre reflection,
amicable truces must be called on petty squabbles...

cheers mates...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 01:00 PM

I have many long sleeved shirts, thick jumpers, long trousers and long heavy coats, partially to keep me warm and partially so that I'm not mistaken for most local lower classes who wear bum freezer summer jackets even in sub zero temperatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 03:40 PM

I have gilets (pretentious? Moi?) that I got in a job lot from Mountain Warehouse, £44.99 down to £12.99 each. Their loss, my gain. They are made of cotton. I will not go out looking like Michelin Man. In winter, that's my garb, one of them on top of a shirt. If it's pissing down or a bit draughty, I wear a cheap waterproof on top. Always shorts and sandals. I'm famous for it round here. And I'll have you know that a bum freezer summer jacket looks great on the right bum, all year round. You're talking like a fashion victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:02 PM

By the way, pfr:

"Steve - when folks, friend or foe, start acting high and mighty.. preaching at, or ganging up on me..."

It's called "challenging you." I get a lot of that round here and I relish it. If you feel as if you're backed into a corner, either come out doughtily defending yourself or reflect that you might have been mistaken. The worst thing is to get all defensive. Dave and I are, after all, the two biggest softies on the forum.

Aren't we, Dave...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:13 PM

Dave and I are, after all, the two biggest softies on the forum.

Aren't we, Dave...?   quote
this forum is starting to resemble the mad hatters tea party

What happened at the Mad Hatters tea Party?
Alice approaches a large table set under the tree outside the March Hare's house and comes across the Mad Hatter and the March Hare taking tea. They rest their elbows on a sleeping Dormouse who sits between them. ... After their argument, the tea party sits in silence until the Mad Hatter asks the March Hare the time. Alice in Wonderland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:19 PM

mean while an MP has been murdered

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:23 PM

Mr. Red may be onto something. The only thing missing is a ufo conspiracy to join the blame game ;^/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:44 PM

Well, Dick, I've always said to Mrs Steve, who hates the big money in Premier League football, that at least the players and the fans aren't fighting wars while they're engaged in the beautiful game. Turning the forum into a temporary Mad Hatter's tea party might just be a similarly good notion. I used to say the same to Dale Wisely, but he was far too impatient. Leave it to us and we will defuse spats, guaranteed. Just sack the fascists first, that's all. They're easy enough to spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 05:14 PM

I am, Steve. I dunno about you. You dress like a hard Yorkshireman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

I may dress like a hard Yorkshireman, Dave, but at least when I make an omelette I don't nick the eggs first...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:44 PM

I've ordered a cotton boiler-suit for winter, you won't get me in a onesie...

Unfortunately it's held up, probably in a container somewhere between here and China.
Amazon can't specify a delivery date...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:57 PM

Onesies tend to make your crutchal area look a lot bigger. You'll be having the women asking themselves whether you're either an aspiring wooftah ballet dancer or whether you just have an unusually big lunch pack. They look great on the right woman, however...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:58 PM

...Shall I get me coat...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 02:50 AM

You'd have to buy one first!

Best buy for ages at a charity shop yesterday. Craghoppers zip-off hiking pants. £3!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:58 AM

a British MP has been stabbed to death and no one bothers to discuss it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:16 AM

Oh Sandman, thank goodness you posted that! So shocking and tragic. I can't bear to think of the pain his poor family must be going through. It also means that security for all MPs will have to be tightened.
Apparently, Police are now saying the murderer was known to them as an Islamic extremist who had been sent on that 'Prevent' course. A Somalian by birth.
Sir David Amess was apparently much-liked in his constituency - cheery, helpful and always doing his best. His murder is absolutely dreadful for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:39 AM

yes whilst i disagreed with a lot of his policies.
my ex brother in law who lives in southend posted this on facebook
Dear David, politically you and my family had our differences, but that's OK, that's what democracy is all about. As a human being my parents respected you enormously, they enjoyed your visits to their home and at the many meetings that my father chaired. I certainly will never forget the time when you broke away from your tour of Southend Hospital to speak with my mother who was in crisis following her stroke. I still have the letter that you wrote to our family for my mothers funeral.
This was no way for your life to end, my thoughts are with your family and may you rest in peace.
I concur

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:49 AM

He was an anti-abortionist and pro-hanging. I have trouble getting my head round that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:53 AM

yes, so do I, BUT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN STABBED TO DEATH.
Is it indicative of a failure of the democratic political system-, when people take violent or non violent political direct action

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:38 AM

Of course not. My last post was simply pointing stuff out about him. No criticism intended. When someone dies we can be respectful for the sake of his family and friends, but we don't have to canonise him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:48 AM

Incidentally, Dick, I was the first to raise the killing of the MP (at 10.48am Mudcat time yesterday), and Dave responded, including a link with his post. There were several more mentions after that. So you pop up, what, seventeen hours later, complaining that we can't be "bothered" to discuss it. I could politely suggest that you should be "bothered" to read through the thread first before deciding to upbraid the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

Yep, nine posts referring to the death of the MP before your criticism that we can't be bothered to discuss it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

no one was canonising. you seem to be more intent on discussing yourself and Dave the Gnome,
Senoufou seems to have been under the same impression as myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:32 AM

You both got the wrong impression then. Read the earlier posts and then say we couldn't be bothered. Just because we can have another conversation after doesn't indicate any lack of care or respect. In fact, choosing to use this sad event to start a fight says a lot about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 10:45 AM

Another thing, Dick. Over five hours after I first lamented the death of the MP, and after several people had posted comments about it, your very next post to the thread berated us for acting like the mad Hatter's tea party and didn't mention the death at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:05 PM

Hold on now Dick..

It's not definitively decided we've finished disagreeing on who gets the last word in
on the the last petty squabble...???

So wait your turn before starting a new one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:06 PM

Anyone tried using the bus lately? Every other bus during the day - er um doesn't do the bussyness. I am tempted to say "not a sausage".

Where I am the bus drivers are de-camping to HGV and with Johnny Foreigner deserting us it is a slow process to replace. So in that environment (plus 'king Boris entreating us to be a high wage country) wouldn't you refuse overtime, and threaten a strike next week over pay? It is a lever to pull, and it is geared high right now.

Stagecoach knew what was coming the minute the Brexshit plopped. They want to sell the business. Don't seem to be any takers yet.

Yes I could drive, but that would be guilt-edged luxury.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:11 PM

Not in these parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:57 PM

Just what you should be concentrating on at this time.

Labour spending more on legal battles than campaigning, say sources

"Labour is spending significantly more of its cash on fighting its legal battles than on political campaigning, sources have told the Guardian, after lawyers for the party opened a new front in the party’s legal turmoil this week.

Party sources said last year campaigning was Labour’s fourth-highest spend, behind costs linked to legal cases.

This week’s naming of five of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest staffers in legal action alleging responsibility for leaking a contentious report marked a new chapter in the war between two sides of the party. The report, which contained private WhatsApp messages, aimed to demonstrate bitter factionalism among staff but has prompted legal action from many of those named.

One senior source described the situation between the two sides of the party as “full-blown lawfare” – comparing it to how competing governments in South American countries have attempted to take down each other."

And

"The five have had their previous legal advice paid by Unite and although the union has a new general secretary, sources said there was an expectation that support would continue. All are members of the union.

One senior party source said they believed Unite “would end up costing us more than they have given us in funding in the last 10 years”."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 02:49 PM

It's ridiculous. When they should be concentrating on ridding us of this awful regime, they spend their time and money fighting each other. It's no good blaming one side either. It takes two to tango!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

We'd at least hope the lawyers show appreciation for the pots of £££s,
and vote Labour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:27 PM

”It's ridiculous. When they should be concentrating on ridding us of this awful regime, they spend their time and money fighting each other. It's no good blaming one side either. It takes two to tango!”

Exactly what I’ve said several times on this thread, only to be berated, excoriated, and lectured by our resident Lefties, effectively accusing me of, amongst other things, ‘telling those inconvenient Lefties to shut up/go away’ which, of course, was made-up shit and predictable, shameless word-twisting.

Glad some of you are getting it at long last.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:32 PM

Gosh.

I worked in three different secondary schools as a teacher over many years. I was unfortunate to have never worked under a strong headteacher. The upshot was the same in every case: the middle orders in the staffroom always developed into a sort of local mafia who ended up sowing discord as they tried to run the show.

I've been saying ever since he was elected that Starmer was a rotten choice. He is determined to marginalise the left, whilst at the same time proving to be completely ineffective as an opponent of the worst prime minister this country has ever had. What I saw in my schools is what's happening in the Labour Party. A weak leader leaving a vacuum for ne'er-do-wells from both factions scrapping it out, fully in the public gaze. We can all decide for ourselves which faction has the right of it (I know what I think). But the problem is the leader, one hundred percent. The antisemitism business is confected, and Jeremy's removal was confected. Starmer has deliberately injected poison and he is reaping a whirlwind because, basically, he's no leader.

By the way, just down the road from my school in east London Mrs Steve was teaching in a large primary school in Stepney, run by a headteacher who espoused inclusiveness, respect, vision and strength. She's now in her 80s, she's one of our dearest friends and she has the Freedom of the City of London. I was always jealous of the missus...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:49 PM

Well I don't "get it." Aren't we supposed to learn from history? Through all the years that I've been involved in trade unionism and interested in politics, the right wing of Labour has tried to sideline the left. Two things about that: the right-wing media will always make bloody sure that our spats are played out in public. And it will never work. The left are the heart and soul of Labour and will never go away. Never. The left were in fallow under Blair, mostly. And guess what: we got a warmongering Tory-lite leader who got into bed with Bush and who widened the gap between rich and poor, and whose policies of next to no regulation led to the crash of 2008. Well some of us were never happy with that particular brand of "Labour." Maybe you were. But the thing is that we're not going to get even that back. Not in a million years, not under this leader. All that remains is for you to decide who to blame for that. But at the end of the day even that doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:07 PM

What a horrible little man, an intellectual pygmy a little petty,tiny minded shit stirrer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:10 PM

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM

No,John. I think it's you that is not getting it. The fault is not the "lefties". It is in-fighting on all sides. If you hadn't noticed, the left no longer hold the leadership, yet the fighting continues. Does that not tell you something? And, no, I'm not blaming the right of the party either. As I said, it takes 2 to tango. What we have had though are 2 ineffective leaders. Neither have brought the party together. Neither have stood up to the false anti semitism claims. Neither used the ineptitude and corruption of this present shower to their advantage. Little wonder members are resigning in their droves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 06:17 PM

Yes Dave, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying - that it’s time for all sides to stop fighting each other and work together to defeat this dreadful bunch of Tory crooks. I’ve never taken sides, I’ve simply said that both sides should unite under the elected leader. I said it when Corbyn was the leader embattled with the Right of the Party, and I say it now Starmer’s the leader embattled with the Left. The Party is bigger than any individual or group of individuals, and should be put before personalities and inter-factional suabbles. I didn’t believe Corbyn was the right guy for leader, and I don’t think Starmer is either, but I really don’t give a flying fuck who the leader is, I just want the Tories out, and Labour in.

Until that happens, the Labour Party is failing those who most need a Labour government, and the in-fighting between the ‘my way or the Highway’ factions is giving the Tories a free-pass to being in power for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 07:32 PM

I really hate to keep on saying this, but "calls for unity" in Labour are always, ALWAYS, code for ,"Oi you lefties, keep quiet and let us responsible middle-of-the-roaders hold sway. We can handle this!" I've seen it in trade unions and I've seen it in my bloody party (I'm still a member...). It's always the same. And I've seen it for half a bloody century. Thing is, you middle-of-the-roaders can't handle it. You are not people of principle. You are people of shameless pragmatism. Elect Labour, no matter how bloody Tory-lite they are, at all costs. The left in Labour are the true people of principle. Last time we ditched principle, we got Blair. Frankly, I'd far sooner keep my principles and lose elections. Yes, really. And I don't believe for a minute that that has to be the case. We almost got there in 2017. I know that "almost" isn't bloody good enough, but neither were Brown and Miliband. Your kind of men. But let me tell you summat, John. We won't even get anywhere near "almost" with Starmer. Not in my lifetime or yours. He is not the man. He won't win next time or the time after, even if we lefties suddenly decide to handle him with kid gloves. Which there's no point doing. "Getting it" means latching on to the realpolitik. I recommend you have a go at that some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:19 PM

"Frankly, I'd far sooner keep my principles and lose elections. Yes, really. And I don't believe for a minute that that has to be the case."

Well...



Well.. I'm a lefty and a pragmatist..


The immediate priority is getting rid of the tories asap...!!!

Though it might not be strategicly good sense for Labour to actually win that election,
and be dumped with the mammoth thankless task of trying to fix the chaos left by the tories.
That would effectively set Labour up to fail spectacularly, and perhaps permanently...???

That's an intresting dilimna to figure out...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 09:10 PM

"poisoned chalice" is the phrase I was struggling to remember for Labour,
if by some miracle they were to win the next election...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 02:09 AM

”I really hate to keep on saying this, but "calls for unity" in Labour are always, ALWAYS, code for ,"Oi you lefties, keep quiet and let us responsible middle-of-the-roaders hold sway. We can handle this!"

No you don’t ‘really hate to keep on saying this’, Steve - pontificating and lecturing everyone with your entrenched views, your claims to superior socialist ‘credentials’, and your gratuitous name-dropping, is what you love doing, otherwise you wouldn’t do it so ad nauseam.

And you steadfastly continue your same-old, same-old word-twisting and putting words in others’ mouths - it’s very dishonest, and it makes any kind of meaningful discussion impossible. I thought we’d got rid of that kind of reprehensible behaviour when the Mods made Jim go away. I have repeatedly said that all sides need to make compromises to unify the party, I’m insulted by your inference that I’m not being honest when I say that, and I can only speculate as to what motivates you to refuse to take me at my word.

So, there you go, Dave - there’s at least part of the reason Labour are fucked. He complains that people who take the reasonable and pragmatic view are guilty of unfairly, one-sidedly blaming the Left for Labour’s troubles, and then immediately regales us with a perfect demonstration of at least some of the reasons why the Left get the blame! It’s impossible to discuss anything when faced by entrenched, know-it-all attitudes and deceitful putting-words-in-people’s-mouths tactics like that, and I’m not going to dignify them by trying.

And, FWIW, I’m not going to dignify Sandman’s disgraceful ad hominem above by responding, other than to draw his attention to the psychological phenomenon known as ‘projection’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

No John, that is not the problem at all. The problem is the type of behaviour that causes Becky Long-Bailey (Yes, I do know her. No that is not name dropping.) to be sacked from her position on trumped up antisemitism charges. It has also happened to my daughter in law. Who is Jewish. None of these charges were the real cause. They have been sidelined because they were too left wing. How many right wingers were sacked or suspended when Corbyn was in power? He may have been ineffective but he was fair. It is not about the left and right of the party any more. It is about those who want to feather their own nests and those who want to make a real difference. Sadly, the former are in charge at the moment.

Yes,extremism of any type is wrong but let me ask you how many from the right of the party have been sacked or tarred with antisemitism smears? Then ask yourself why that may be and who is behind it.

As to Sandman's ramblings, I have no idea at all what he is on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:50 AM

Anyway, any comment about the main point of my post, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

Where have I berated you, John? Apologies if I did. In my mind I was simply arguing against some of your points. That is not berating but using words like pontificating, lecturing and entrenched is. I do believe the factions need to unite but not at any cost. The whole political spectrum, including the Labour Party, has been swinging right for years. Big business and the media love this but it is bad news for us ordinary folk and that needs to be redressed. What is the point of voting for a Labour Party that is no different to the Tories?

The whole point of different factions in any Party is to question the leadership. The way to address those questions is to listen and, if necessary, compromise. Not silence and malign any opposition. I ask once again, how many right wing Labour MPs have been sacked or suspended?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:01 AM

What is the main point of your post, John?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:35 AM

You’re an intelligent guy, Dave - read it and answer the question, why are you arguing with me when I’ve agreed with you over and over again? One could be forgiven for thinking there’s a vendetta.

In fact, don’t bother, this is just too tiresome and I have better things to do. Very soon there will only be you and Steve posting anyway - happy families.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM

When Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, a large number of senior Labour people on the right of the party refused to work with him in the shadow cabinet. One of that lot, Tom Watson, served as deputy leader. Both he and many of those others never missed an opportunity to brief against Corbyn, and Jeremy endured trumped-up accusations of antisemitism that none of them ever tried to refute in his defence. Indeed, several senior Labour figures attacked him on it constantly and dishonestly. Corbyn tried to be inclusive in selecting a team from all wings of the party. But there was never any bleating about "unity" or "compromise" then from those refuseniks who are bleating about it now. On the contrary, the sole aim was to get the properly-elected leader, Corbyn, out. Those people gave the right-wing media open season on Corbyn and they did it deliberately. Didn't exactly help in 2019, did it?

As for compromise, etc., I invite you to reread the anodyne comments made by Becky Long-Bailey and Jeremy Corbyn that got them the boot. Completely laughable. Starmer couldn't wait to pounce on the left at the very slightest opportunity. And now he tries to change the party rules in order to sideline them further. What price "compromise"?

As for pragmatism, it's not pragmatic to keep propping up a leader who can never win an election. In 2010 the country gave Labour a kicking once it saw what Blairism had done to us. Well this guy is just a tired old Blairite who fatally, hasn't got even a trace of Blair's charisma.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 06:43 AM

I am not arguing with you, John. Just pointing out flaws in some of your arguments. I'm sorry if you feel that is a vendetta but as I said, opposition should not be silenced or ignored. It should be listened to and acted upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 06:52 AM

BTW, there is no leftist gang or cabal here. I have never met Steve. I agree with a lot of his points and disagree with others. When we disagree we do just that - disagree. There is no rancour and no grudges held. Same with a lot of other folk I disagree with. This forum is neither real life nor politically important. It is, or should be, a good place to share similarities and air differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:39 AM

Tell me whenever you disagree, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:51 AM

This week’s naming of five of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest staffers

And we can't get rid of the man even now?

Long ago I compared Corbyn to Michael Foot, and asked how many elections Footie kicked into touch. Corblymie is really doin' gud fer the party, innit? At a time when 'king Boris is bumbling and turncoating his way through a crisis he created, alienating a big enough chunk of his supporters to make a enough difference, in any other circumstance.

Ya cain't make it up, 'cept 'king Boris does, as he goes along.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:06 AM

Well Steve, as a TRUE Manc in exile I obviously have to disagree with you about Liverpool. But seeing as I know FA about football (see what I did there?) I cannot be passionate about it. There have been other things but I'm not one for dredging up the past. When we next disagree, you will be the first to know!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:10 AM

It's a quasi-philosophical question is that, who kicked elections into touch...After Corbyn had given Theresa May a nasty shock in 2017, the big guns both inside and outside the party came out for him in full force. He was no charismatic leader, for sure. However, like Michael Foot, he was one of that rare breed in politics, a person of principle.

Michael Foot doomed himself by wearing a jacket that wasn't a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Johnson leads a dissolute private life (lessee now...how many kids has he got...) and is a proven serial liar as well as a racist and a homophobe, but he can't doom himself no matter how hard he tries, not even by causing tens of thousands of needless deaths. Something to contemplate there, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM

It's not still about those bingo balls and the photocopied bingo cards, is it, Dave...? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM

Damn you for mentioning them, Shaw! Shall I tell all about Lilo Lil and the Knot End ferry?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM

Blimey, Knott End Ferry! That takes me back - it must be sixty years since I last went on it (it was a regular treat for us in them days and Fleetwood was me parents' favourite place: they loved walking round Rossall Point...)

Heard from Betty Swollix lately, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM

Funnily enough i dropped my partner off at Knott End ferry a couple of weeks back (she was on her way to see her old mum in Fleetwood)

labour party - we've been here so many times, being let down by the leadership (exceptions being foot and corbyn) members join the party because they are inspired by socialism, workers' rights, cnd - liberty, equality and fraternity. what happens to these mps once they are elected by other folks' enthusiasm? ( 'i believe i am representing the people who want competent and efficient government that is slightly more humane than the tories. and to crack down on socialists in the party') - it's all very suspicious if you ask me. when elected, Blair could have achieved anything for the country. i'm not saying he did nothing but he left all the old structures intact and stood in the way of progress.

on the way back from Knott End I watched thousands of geese flying overhead to Cockerham sands while listening to Beth Orton on a lovely evening. a week after that i was in the Bell in Bath. Jags beat Hamilton 6-1 on friday. if you can try to ignore all the horrors - it's still a beautiful world

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 11:37 AM

The euphoria of blair kicking out the tories was short lived
as soon as it became so clearly apparent
he was a christian, etonian, and fanboy for the royal family..

It wasn't just window dressing strategy to win over mail and telgraph demogtaphic..

He realy was that entrenched in the old establishment order.


That's when I started to distrust blair as a real Labour PM...

Then he started attacking benefit claimants far worse than thatcher had...
Next he moved on to making life worse for teachers...

That's just two of his early accomplishments.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM

Cheers to Pete and pfr. Two brilliantly clear-sighted posts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:38 PM

Countryman - a poem by George Mackay Brown



Countryman

Come soon. Break from the pure ring of silence,
A swaddled wail

You venture
With jotter and book and pencil to school

An ox man, you turn
Black pages on the hill

Whisper a vow
To the long white sweetness under blessing and bell

A full harvest,
Utterings of gold at the mill

Old yarns, old malt, beside the hearth,
A breaking of ice at the well

Be silent, story, soon.
You did not take long to tell

- From Voyages, Chatto & Windus, 1983

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

"I've measured it from side to side: 'Tis three feet long, and two feet wide..."

[Wordsworth, 1789, "The Thorn"]

We all have our off-days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:16 PM

From: Steve Shaw
When Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, a large number of senior Labour people on the right of the party refused to work with him in the shadow cabinet. One of that lot, Tom Watson, served as deputy leader. Both he and many of those others never missed an opportunity to brief against Corbyn, and Jeremy endured trumped-up accusations of antisemitism that none of them ever tried to refute in his defence. Indeed, several senior Labour figures attacked him on it constantly and dishonestly.

Is it, at least, possible that his fellow party members didn't protect him from those claims because they believed that he did have anti-semitic tendencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:21 PM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism. Once you do that, I promise to take you on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:58 PM

Steve - I rewatched "Black Narcissus" this weekend [BBC catch up]

A classic of post war British cinema,
which could only be permitted to be viewed in the land of 'freedom of speach' America
after their censors cut it to shreds in order to be more tolerable to American over-sensitivites.

This rendered the near perfectly constructed work of cinematic art
so incoherent it lost most meaning, and was near unwatchable.

The same fate befell many other British film makers, writers, and creatives.


.. not much changed then, since 1947...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:20 AM

Bit of a change of subject there pfr. Have i wandered into the wrong room?

Have you seen the American version of the film released in 1947? A quick search only revealed,

"The version of the film originally shown in the United States had scenes depicting flashbacks of Sister Clodagh's life before becoming a nun edited out at the behest of the Legion of Decency."

It would be interesting to compare versions of the film released in the UK and US at the time. I don't know if the UK censors requested any cuts for the original release.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:25 AM

No change of subject, Raindog. Had you wandered into the room a few hours ago you'd have seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

Point of order, Chair.

The majority of the electorate in the UK do not belong to any political party.

I would imagine that the majority of the electorate do not read any party manifesto in great detail.

I also suspect that a lot of the electorate would not agree with every item on the said manifesto, when they decide where to place their X on the ballot paper.

I certainly think that the manority do not give a shit about the plots and counter plots consuming so much of party members time. They want someone to run the government for the benefit of the country not for the benefit of the mps.

Down here, the complaint is that people do not see councillors etc., out and about, talking to people and finding out what they want. I know that covid has played a big part in that, but it is something that Labour need to address if they hope to make any headway.

People are losing interest in voting. I think that we are all agreed that is not a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:14 AM

Something else that i was not aware of.

EES/ETIAS: UK must clarify effects of new EU systems, says politician.

The EU is set to introduce two new electronic travel systems by the end of 2022 that will affect people from the UK, the US and other non-EU countries.

EES/ETIAS

The link is to The Connexion. French news and views. It allows you to read 2 articles before having to subscribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Another point of order, Chair.

Has anyone else been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour revolution

I have watched the first two episodes. I had forgotten that the tensions between the two surfaced so early. The same might be happening again between numbers 10 and 11.

I enjoyed hearing the Mo Mowlam quote "the trouble with Tony is that he thinks he's fucking Jesus"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:59 AM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism.
I made no insinuation, I didn't even raise the matter, you did. I merely queried your assertion that the claims against him were groundless.
Obviously debating the matter is pointless as you would never be able to prove that he wasn't anti-Semitic. I feel that those you mention, Tom Watson, and many others including several senior Labour figures, are likely to know Jeremy Corbyn's nature better than the man in the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:29 AM

They might well have, Nigel, but don't forget that they had an anti-Jezza agenda that was all too plain to see...

Recalling what antisemitism actually means (to me, prejudice, hatred or harm directed at Jewish people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS), look as hard as you like and you will not find a single instance of Jeremy Corbyn displaying or promoting antisemitism. Supporting the Palestinians or criticising the actions of the Israeli regime only count if you have blinkers on.

We've spent a lot of time on this in the past and I could suggest that we leave it for now. However, fire away if that's what you want...

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM

By the way, Nigel, I can't prove that there isn't a colony of seven-legged little blue men living on the rings of Saturn either. Or even that there's no God. Even Richard Dawkins admits to the latter. What we can do is challenge for real evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:40 AM

That’s something we do agree on Steve. I’m disappointed in Nigel for trying to revive that particular Expired Equine.

Sandman, since the tragic events of Friday, and out of respect for a murdered Member of Parliament, I have hitherto deliberately abstained from further comments on this thread, and I have no intention of getting involved in further disputes at this time.

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many, irrespective of their Party, so perhaps, instead of childish attempts to foment further disagreement here, you’d like to show the same kind of respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, that wasn't at the heart of that post. It was about the campaign to get Corbyn out. The false antisemitism claims against him happened to be part of that, that's all. Now I've already suggested once that we could let it drop. Whaddya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 11:21 AM

Raindog - yeah you should have been here last night, for the "Black Narcissus" metaphor to make proper sense...

Not that any of our culled Brit politics posts merit being evaluated
as "near perfectly constructed work of __ art"..

However, we share the frustration of not offending the sensitivities of our American allies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM

Having said that we need to move on from Labour antisemitism I just got this from my friend and daughter in law's Mum, Pam Bromley

I suspect that the ones doing all the shouting about antisemitism wish it really would go away now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

The same website that lost the libel case and ended up costing Unite members so much money. I doubt if they asked for their members to back that action.

Internal disputes can end up costing a party a lot of money and members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM

Yea, but you wont find anything about it on MSM. I wonder why that is...

I know Skwawk is a bit of a dodgy website but this news is true and from the horses mouth. Maybe Jewish Voice for Labour would have been a better choise as they carry the same story. Although they have been accused of antisemitism themselves for being the wrong type of Jews :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:29 PM

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many,
quote backwoodsman
yes i do

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:22 AM

”Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.”

Apologies Nigel, you’re correct, and that fact had gone straight over my head. However, I do maintain that there’s very little point, if any at all, in trying to administer CPR to a deceased nag. I do hope you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:33 AM

I can't remember if I have posted this before. Apologies if I have.

And apologies to Paul.Simon

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

Please feel free to add more :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:34 AM

Well I could hardly have mentioned the campaign to oust Corbyn with mentioning antisemitism, could I! The campaign was the point of the post. I've now tried twice to suggest that we'd be better not resurrecting the antisemitism thang, but hey ho...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:47 AM

Yep. It's going nowhere but as I pointed out in my link on 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM, it is coming back to bite the bum of those who used the accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:47 AM

I didn't vote for this...

Oh yes you did!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:00 PM

I've got heaps of sympathy for her pigs and I hope it works out for her. But if it doesn't I won't be shedding any tears for her. She can go to blazes, along with all the other stupid farmers who voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:55 PM

Couple of book reviews which i read in the last couple of days.

Beyond a Fringe:Tales from a Reformed Establishment Lackey by Andrew Mitchell

Reviewed by Andrew Rawnsley in The Observer

Always Red by Len McCluskey

Reviewed by James Kirkup on Unherd.com

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:42 PM

Well Mr Kirkup is nothing if not neutral...


Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

"Video shows Range Rover pushing Insulate Britain activist at sit-in".

A Guardian item to google. Anyone like to try to justify it? Several people around here did seem to be on the motorists' side, keen to call the protesters names, I seem to recall...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Kate Morgan (a pig farmer)

"Yes, I did vote for Brexit but I can assure everyone that is listening that I did not vote for this. I voted for people to be more patriotic, I voted for the government to look after us and to put border controls in.

“There were a number of things I voted on, I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week – and I was very educated in my vote. I respect other peoples’ vote and they should respect my vote.”

++

That just about sums things up. She voted for Brexit but had little or no idea what that would entail. No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

"and I was very educated in my vote."

I think not.

Let's hope there is no shortage of pigs in blankets this coming christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week 

That could be good. However, I wonder if they were balanced, or all "Leave" meetings. Without the balance, it is not really all that clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM

No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

That is spot on Rain Dog. I have likened it to someone moving house without knowing where they were going. Imagine being dissatisfied with your house and leaving it without any plans for your new one. That is just what these people have agreed to. I can appreciate them being dissatisfied with Europe. But why anyone would agree to a leap in the dark based on assurances by conman and shysters is still beyond me :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:43 PM

The Leave voters didn’t have a clue what they were voting for, because the Leave Campaign was based on nothing more than Populist, anti-EU, racist propaganda, gaslighting, and dog-whistling. No real plan was set out by them, because no real plan existed.

The Remain voters voted for the known, factual status-quo. The Leave voters voted for little more than a hope. Stupid is as stupid does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:54 PM

Adopt a pig..

British families should be offered govt grants to provide emergency long term accomodation
to unwanted surplus pigs.

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer,
and should be housed and brought up in families with true British values.

I'll take two to begin with, we only have a small freezer... ermm.. back yard...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 12:42 PM

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer"

Yebbut will they add to the numbers of greedy people with their snouts in the trough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:09 PM

Hard to believe some people's behaviour.

From the BBC

"A protester has been arrested for a public order offence after a mock gallows was erected outside Parliament.

The action was part of a small anti-vaccine protest held in Parliament Square on Wednesday.

The Metropolitan Police said a man had been taken into custody. The gallows and noose have now been take down.

Conservative MP Michael Fabricant called the incident "crass and unthinking" following the death of Sir David Amess.

Labour's Hilary Benn also called the protest "scandalous", adding: "We should be able to carry out our job without being threatened by people out in Parliament Square."

Police were seen dismantling the gallows shortly after 16:00 BST and a man was seen being put into a police van and taken away from the scene.

Mr Fabricant told the Commons that Piers Corbyn - an anti-lockdown protester and the brother of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn - was part of the group protesting."


BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:31 PM

i would think that the fact that he was related to Jermy Corbyn is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 03:44 PM

absolutely not relevant at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:51 PM

no,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:52 PM

of course

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:53 PM

it isn't

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:53 PM

I actually went to university with Piers, at Imperial College in the early 70s. He was president of the Students' Union. I cringe when I think back to those beer-addled meetings. Oddly, years later when I'd met the future Mrs Steve, she spoke of Piers prowling around halls of residence corridors, trying to sneak out unobserved, slippers and very sloppy jumper in hand...

Piers has done very odd things ever since then, including setting up his weather forecasting system-by-numbers business. He's also a massive climate change denier. I haven't kept up with him on coronavirus, though I can guess...

Piers, chalk. Jeremy, cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:54 PM

I had a conversation tonight with a person who thought that irsh farming was as big a problem as regards climate change as the cutting down of brazilian rain forests, what are your opinions on this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:59 PM

UK well on the way to achieving world class levels of covid infection. Currently daily rate averaging over the whole year would result in 19 million cases. Or is the current rate if increase continues, 100,000 cases per day within a month.

I seem to be a useless little **** as I have failed to personally add to the numbers as I am one of the ignorant ****s who still wears a mask in shops and on public transport. No only have I failed to get infected, I has also failed to infect anyone else. Clearly failing in my duty to my country. So folks lets redouble our efforts to get the rate up to 250,000 per day by Christmas and make the NHS proud of the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM

Now all the scientists and medical advisors are saying we really need to do something urgently, what has happened to the government's follow the science policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:31 AM

I think many people are being complete babies about not wanting to lockdown during the Christmas season. And not go Christmas shopping. Or Christmas parties and events. They'd stage a huge rebellion if 'measures' were re-introduced, because they want to have 'fun'.
They're like toddlers, refusing to put on a mask or have a jab. I can almost imagine them stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum.
Grow up, and live.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:50 AM

People are the same the world over. We are all human beings, act in pretty much the same way, enjoy the same things and have the same hopes and fears. What we need to ask ourselves is why the rates in the UK are skyrocketing while elsewhere they are under control. There is only one plausible answer - the management of the virus is different.

Of course the party line is that they are not responsible for people actions but that round about sums up the governments attitude. Irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:15 AM

When the Blojob-Bunch decided to remove all the rules and restrictions back in June/July, and allowed everything to open up again, Mrs Backwoodsperson and I predicted that it was a blame-shifting exercise and that, when the inevitable ‘next wave’ began, they would blame the populace.

And here we are….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:31 AM

As an aside I often check the 'facts' as reported on social media, including Mudcat, using FullFact

They are usually pretty good and non-biased - Even though they are backed by a Tory doner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Or even Tory Donor. I am not sure if he likes doners...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:39 AM

Thanks Dave, I’ve bookmarked that site. For the record, I like doners, but they don’t like me (don’t ask!).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM

My pleasure :-)

I was looking at other fact checkers and Snopes in particular seemed a bit too US centric and covered too broad a range but it did lead me to this article about Strategic Lying

Some fascinating stuff in there. Right early on it states This is a technique – honed by Cummings himself during the Brexit campaign and played masterfully during the 2019 election campaign – in which a politician tells a deliberate lie with the purpose of shifting the news agenda onto his or her preferred territory.

A prime example, and I'm sure at least one of the right wingers on here will miss the point and try to refute this again, is the £350,000,000 bus.

The classic strategic lie was the slogan painted on the side of the Leave campaign’s bus during the Brexit referendum that claimed that the UK sent £350 million a week to the EU. It was a figure that was easily, and frequently, rebutted – not just by Remain campaigners but by all the reputable fact-checking organisations.

But that didn’t matter. Cummings, made no attempt to defend the figure in his blog about the campaign but instead described it as “a brilliant communications ploy” saying that it “…worked much better than I thought it would”.

This seems to be what the world of politics has come to. Manipulation of the masses. Hopefully it will only work until the majority of people see it for what it is. I asked on the thread about Trump when he was likely to face charges over his deliberate manipulation and corruption. I said that I hope it is soon as, hopefully, the same fate will hit Boris!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:41 AM

I've had the jabs and no-one has advocated vaccination here more than I have. There's a mask in my pocket that hardly ever sees the light of day. The only evidence I've seen for the efficacy of masks is observational, and all of that evidence is beset by confounding factors. I've made two other main points about masks on the "new news" thread: that mask-abuse is widespread and common, just about normal, behaviour that makes masks either next to useless, useless or worse than useless; and that the vast majority of people who you'd like to see obliged to wear masks are wearing them for no useful purpose as they are not infected. Overwhelmingly, vaccines are the best way forward, no doubt about it. After that, good hygiene and being careful about mixing with people. I've looked at a lot of evidence and I've thought about this a lot, and I may well be wrong about masks. Anyone calling me childish or a toddler because I don't wear a mask is predicating that criticism on a level of certainty that is completely unjustified. You simply can't be any more sure that masks are any good than I can be sure that they're not. You may wish to argue the precautionary principle, and that's a respectable point of view. But here's something else: this virus is staying with us for life. It knows how to mutate, make itself more catching and to dance around our vaccines. So I'd like to know for how many more years, or decades, you'd like to see us in masks...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:42 AM

If we are all responsible for our own public health policies - not just our own health but the way through our actions we impact on others, shouldn't we all, as individuals, get public health funding.

Johnson and his cohorts have washed their hands of any responsibility for taking a leadership role as it costs them more votes than it saves lives, and by not even bothering to engage, their mismanagement is sliding back under the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 07:13 AM

I think that the main thrust of their exercising responsibility should be a concerted programme of public information and education about the disease, making use of all the media outlets. The emphasis should be on promoting vaccination and careful, responsible behaviour when we're out and about. Anyone remember "Don't die of ignorance?" And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks. I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I get fed up of being criticised for not wearing a mask by the very people who shore up Facebook, etc., by dint of being signed up to such charlatan setups.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:08 AM

”And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks.”

Here in the Backwoods, the ‘idiots who don’t wear masks’ are in a very sizeable majority. In our local Morrison’s yesterday, I’d estimate 90% of customers weren’t wearing masks or using the provided hand-sanitiser. Virtually all of the floor-staff were also maskless.

It’s absolutely their right not to wear a mask, no doubt about that. Equally, it’s absolutely my right to wear one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:38 AM

Here in the Irish Backwoods, I am confronted by somebody who try to tell me that god is all powerful therfore there is no reason to wear a mask in a church, and another one who says in all seriousness that irish farmers do more damage to the climate than brazilians cutting down rainforests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 10:26 AM

I watched the Green Party speaches live on BBC news yesterday, old leader handing over to new shared leadership team..

They declared their principles and intentions..

More to the point, they said the things I want to hear a British Labour Party say...

It's a shame both parties will be bloody useless in getting rid of the tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 10:41 AM

Spot on there, John. Dunno if you ever read that "new news..." thread, but I've said repeatedly that wearing a mask is a perfectly respectable position. Unfortunately, most people posting there don't think that my standpoint is a respectable one (I even get called names), in spite of the fact that evidence for the effectiveness of masks is all merely observational and doesn't stand up well to scientific rigour. Efforts have been made to replicate mask characteristics in investigations in laboratories, but sucking things through fabrics without a human face and human failings being involved is, well...Which isn't to say the evidence as is isn't useful or that it's wrong, but it certainly isn't strong enough to justify my being called a toddler. The real target of our disapproval should always be vaccine-refusers and the b*ast*ards on social media who put them up to it. Something that Facebook subscribers should reflect on before they come out to criticise anybody for "not doing their bit."

What would be a huge mistake would be to equate the current spike with the July removal of the mask mandate. There's plenty else going on. And let's not forget that numbers started to plummet after the first wave even before masks were made compulsory in shops, etc. Post hoc ergo propter hoc and all that....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

Completely agree, Steve. Despite my own preference for wearing a mask, I don’t berate others whom I come across maskless. I do, however, invite those who get too close to me to socially-distance themselves from me. Except I don’t express myself as politely as that. ;-)

I don’t know whether masks protect either the wearer, or those with whom the wearer comes into close proximity. However, wearing a mask won’t harm me, it doesn’t particularly inconvenience me, and I wear mine properly, so I choose to take what I consider to be the ‘safer’ route. If others choose not to, it’s not a requirement under C-19 regulations, there’s nothing I can do about it, so I’m not going to drive up my BP by getting too excited about it.

FWIW, the (world-wide, US-owned) company that Mrs Backwoodsperson works for has a rule that masks are to be worn at all times that staff aren’t actually sitting at their own work-stations, so mask-wearing is, for her, second-nature now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 12:41 PM

Dave, your Full Fact site may be the equivalent of the Snopes site in the US (it has been running for a couple of decades here, so it has a history.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 01:26 PM

We are all well aware of Steve's 'scientific' reservations on masks by now...

I tend to be in agreement with him.

BUT, I choose to wear masks as a form of personal petty futile protest in a town and region that is dominated by bonehead tory/ukip ideology...

.. and hope that properly worn masks provide at least some protection for me and my loved ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 01:42 PM

The problem with "mask science" is that it isn't possible to set up an ethical control experiment at all, let alone on a large scale (you can hardly order thousands of people to not wear masks for extended periods). All you can do is observe as best you can what people are actually doing or not doing, in their own sweet, uncontrolled ways without oversight from scientists, but even then, your observations aren't able to lead to safe conclusions. For example, if you observe that in one area more people wear masks than in another area, and that the case numbers per capita are lower in that area, it would be unsafe to conclude that the lower numbers were the result of masking up. Just think of all the other variables that get in the way. And think of the stuff I've said about case rates and mask compulsion during the UK's pandemic experience.

I don't argue against masks, but I do argue against compulsion. The evidence we do have may be seen as leaning in favour of masks, but not enough to make masks compulsory. BWM and pfr argue for personal choice. So do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:17 AM

”The evidence we do have may be seen as leaning in favour of masks, but not enough to make masks compulsory. BWM and pfr argue for personal choice.

Not exactly true, in my case.

What I believe is that, on the basis of not knowing for sure whether masks are effective at preventing transmission, but believing also that mask-wearing is very unlikely to actually aid transmission, it’s better to take the course of ‘do no harm’, and that everyone should wear masks in public spaces. However, I also believe that, without compulsion, a significant majority of people will eschew mask-wearing (borne out by my experiences out and about in my local area) and a sizeable number would still refuse to wear masks even if required by law to do so. Under those circumstances, I regard compulsion as pointless - compulsion is only effective if people obey.

My position is that I firmly believe everyone should do the socially-responsible thing and wear a mask in public. But I have no control over other people’s behaviour, so I see no point in allowing what I perceive as the selfishness of non-mask-wearers to upset my personal equilibrium.

To accept that others will refuse to mask-up is not the same thing as to ‘argue for personal choice’. Close, but not exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:42 AM

Re-reading my post, perhaps ‘do no harm’ would be better replaced with ‘do least harm’ but, either way, the point is the same…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:58 AM

dittoish.. I would support compulsory mask wearing on public transport and indoor public places..

But as a pragmatist, realise the aggro this will cause to employees trying to request ignorant self centre aggressive arseholes comply with the rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:05 AM

I posted a link in the Covid thread about a scientist proving that viruses in general and Covid in particular are spread by both aerosol droplets of less that 5 microns and much larger droplets of up to 100 microns. The article demonstrated that the virus moved by air much more than they originally thought and because of that I shall continue to wear a mask in enclosed public spaces as much as I can. It is personal choice. I used to think it was just to stop me spreading it. I am now more of the opinion that masks can also be effective in preventing me catching it!

This is round about the best article I have seen on the effectiveness of masks and it is criminally negligent of the government to not make such points clear and available to the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:07 AM

Sorry - here is the link

https://theconversation.com/covid-19-masks-faqs-how-can-cloth-stop-a-tiny-virus-whats-the-best-fabric-do-they-protect-the-wearer-146822

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:09 AM

More apologies

Looks too long for the blickifier. C&P it

https://theconversation.com/covid-19-masks-faqs-how-can-cloth-stop-a-tiny-virus-whats-the-best-fabric-do-they-protect-the-wearer-146822

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:57 AM

Another dimension to add into the mask discussions. The government always wants to spread the message that thanks to them we, like Pangloss, live in the best of all possible worlds. All is well, the virus is crushed and we don't need to talk about it. Let's stop the meetings with advisors, and look forward to our great successes.

Mask wearing is a visual reminder that it is not so. Every mask you see says "this is not beaten yet". So the government would prefer all masks to be abandoned for PR reasons, whatever the pros and cons of health.

If you think it is more or less neutral in health terms, why not think of it as the modern equivalent of a label badge or tee shirt criticising the governments approach?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:06 AM

ventilation is the answer?
perhaps governments need to introduce public works ventialtion schemes which will also boost the economy, and put money into the hands of consumers rather or as well as than pharm companies.
lidl and aldis etc need to start ventilating their stores better churches need to be ventilated, plus all public buildings,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:09 AM

Good point, DMcG. And I strongly suspect that the government’s purpose in dropping the encouragement to ‘mask-up’ is to strengthen their Blame-Shifting posture when the next wave strikes and, by all the evidence, it’s on its way right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:32 AM

backwoodsman, i have no problem with other people wearing masks,i weras them myself where i think necessary
what i do find annoying are idiots who close windows, when it clearly states about leaving them open, these berks would rather catch covid than be cold, why dont they duck off the bus and catch a txi if they do not enjoy being cold.
every twat that closes a window should be made to take a cold shower, to boost their immune system

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:30 AM

To be clear, I'm not a rebel and I wear a mask if there's a rule requiring me to do so. There is always a mask in my pocket. One chap in a bike shop said he would deal with the maskless me only if he and I stood outside the shop (I'd forgotten my mask on that occasion). He lost my business. The chap who runs a pet shop in Bude put up signs and asked me politely, so I masked up. No problem. Our village shop is tiny and compact and I haven't stopped masking up to go in there, even though they don't ask me to. They also only want two in the shop at a time. All good. It's their shop and they are polite about it all. Of course, that same mask, which is reasonably clean as I seldom use it, is a few weeks old. So I'm guilty of mask abuse. Along with almost everybody else. Either you use a new mask every time you take one off (and you never have one on that you raise and lower) or you're guilty, bang to rights. Hands up...?

"My position is that I firmly believe everyone should do the socially-responsible thing and wear a mask in public." [BWM]

Well it's socially-responsible in your opinion. My opinion is that the case is very far from having been made. I firmly believe that there isn't enough evidence for masks to justify going round judging people who choose to do without them.

Next time you go into Morrisons or Sainsbury's, stand at the entrance for a minute or two and watch how many people sail in there who sanitise neither their hands nor their trolley or basket. We don't know if masks do much but we do know that viruses live on hands and hard surfaces. Those people are potentially contaminating everything they touch in the shop. People like that, and people who refuse the vaccine, are the real culprits. Whataboutery not intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

But is it our job to be vigilantes or is it up to the government to be more consistent.
one thing i will be a vigilante about is opening windows on buses, after all we are supposed to be british, if we are going to do masochism let us do it properly, with a stiff upper lip and enjoy the suffering. increase ventilation everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

Dave, your article is so full of flaws that it's not possible to see its conclusions as in any way reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:11 AM

”Next time you go into Morrisons or Sainsbury's, stand at the entrance for a minute or two and watch how many people sail in there who sanitise neither their hands nor their trolley or basket. We don't know if masks do much but we do know that viruses live on hands and hard surfaces. Those people are potentially contaminating everything they touch in the shop.”

I commented in my post of 23 Oct 21 - 09:08 AM about precisely that, Steve. I use the trolley-sanitiser spray every time I enter Morrison’s or Tesco (we aren’t posh enough to have a Sainsbury’s here in The Backwoods), and I use the hand-sanitiser multiple times while I’m in there. But the C-19 virus’s main transmission method, if you believe ‘The Science’ (and, in the absence of any meaningful, verifiable information elsewhere, I do), is in aerosol so, AFAIC, mask-wearing makes complete sense, so I will continue to do it in all public spaces, whether I’m asked to or not - I regard it as respectful of others, and the civilised thing to do.

If others choose to do the other thing, that’s up to them - nothing I can do about it, and I’m not going to get into public shouting-matches with non-maskers. But, when the inevitable next wave arrives (and it’s cranking-up as we debate the issues here and now), our government of Blame-Shifters won’t be able to accuse me of being one of those whose dereliction to their duties to others has caused it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:17 AM

It's only a dereliction of duty if the thing you're not doing actually does any good. This is the trouble with this debate...

And, as with all respiratory viruses, transmission via hands and surfaces is important. And those hands might just have been mauling a dirty mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:22 AM

Clean, disposable, properly-fitting mask every time, Steve, and once it’s on, I don’t touch it until I’m outside and removing it, at which time I break the ear-loops, bin it, and sanitise my hands again.

It’s a rigmarole but, if you don’t at least try to do it properly, whatever is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:38 AM

Whilst I haven't done an extensive study, I should think it's safe to say that you're in a small minority. And let's say that a typical mask-abuser is infected but doesn't know it. Their mask is contaminated and they're mauling it all the time. That's arguably more dangerous to everyone around than not wearing the thing at all.

However.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:48 AM

But I don’t ‘maul it all the time’, as I’ve already explained. You’re starting your old habit of ignoring what’s been said, or wilfully misinterpreting, in order to try to get the last word (or ‘win’, which seems to be one of the necessities of life for you).

So, the last word’s yours - be my guest….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 07:14 AM

I didn't say you. I said a typical mask-abuser, which you are not. Try not to get all prickly before you've read my post properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

" And let's say that a typical mask-abuser is infected but doesn't know it. Their mask is contaminated and they're mauling it all the time. That's arguably more dangerous to everyone around than not wearing the thing at all."

I am curious to know why you should consider that mask warers "maul" their mask frequently. I would think a mask wearer (such as myself I should add) would place their mask on their face prior to going into a shop and remove it once they had left the shop.

That is hardly mauling, and if like me, they get home and wash the said mask it is then cleaned for the next time of use.




.................... and before you suggest that they would take it on and off through various shops I would suggest that many, if not most people do all their shopping in one shop, the supermarket.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

Correction: I’m not ‘prickly’ at all Steve! Far from it - I’m determined not to let your persistence and determination to ‘win’ at all costs get up my nose, hence my willingness to allow you the last word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:42 AM

Gosh, two of you in a row misreading! I said "typical mask-abuser," not "typical mask-wearer." Easy, tigers!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:58 AM

Perhaps it would be better for forum-harmony if you didn’t constantly spray your accusations around using your signature broad-brush technique, Steve. Your generalisations, presented by you in your standard ‘I know better than you’’ manner, tend to become very tiresome indeed, and generalisations, by their very nature, are seldom accurate.

It might also be worth your giving some consideration to the fact that there are others here who know stuff, and whose opinions are worth at least as much as your own.

Just a friendly suggestion, in the interests of peace and harmony…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:03 AM

Utter tosh from a bloke who has trouble reading plain English!

That's my last word on this. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:28 AM

You really can’t help some people, can you. They’re just too ‘clever’, I guess. Oh well, I tried…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:39 AM

For those who enjoy the rarefied air of Radio 3 there was an interesting edition of Private Passions today, featuring Rory Stewart talking about his life (as well as giving us his choice of music). He's done a lot of diverse and interesting things, including walking across Nepal, Afghanistan and Iran and standing for the Tory leadership and the post of mayor of London. He's now completely fallen out of politics and he is scathing about Boris Johnson. "He's not on my Christmas list..."

You have to wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:57 AM

Because they are fed up with the likes of that vile witch Angela Raynor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:58 AM

perhaps they see it as a way of bettering themselves getting on in the worlfd achieving fame and or money after all they are the establishment party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 10:04 AM

You have to wonder why some people wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 10:51 AM

It's not my article, Steve! I only posted the link :-) There may be some flaws in it but it is the best I have seen and until I see something better, I shall follow the advice given there. If you want to see the background to the summary given in the article there is a fuller and more scientific piece here

It is beyond my secondary school science lessons but if you would like to read it and refute it in plain terms, I am happy to listen. Going back to an earlier point though, I think I will continue to wear the mask just to annoy Boris :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 11:58 AM

From The Observer.

Why aren’t we in prison, ask Insulate Britain protesters & some mudcat members

"Climate protest group Insulate Britain has revealed its “absolute disbelief” that its members have been allowed to repeatedly disrupt the motorway network, saying it had originally expected its campaign of direct action to last just two days.

As the group prepares for a fresh wave of protests this week, organisers admit they are baffled over why the police have effectively allowed them to keep closing major routes."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:09 PM

"You have to wonder why some people wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories..."

The Tory party is the party of self-interest, the party of the pursuit of money and privilege, the party of austerity only for the weakest in society and the party of devil-take-the-hindmost. And Bonzo is a supporter! Says it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:12 PM

Not here and now, Dave. Enough pots at me for one day, thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM

No pots or problems from me, Steve. Until I see a good and understandable explanation of why the summary in the article is wrong, I shall continue to believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:33 PM

Do you honestly imagine I could support a party with the likes of the evil tongued Angela Rayner, and master cretin Diane Abbott?????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:49 PM

I didn't say it was wrong, Dave, but it does contain a few flaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:22 PM

Then Bonzo pops up and reminds us what the real problems are :-)

Do you hate all strong women, Bonzo? You must be very insecure!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:57 PM

The Tory party is the party of self-interest, the party of the pursuit of money and privilege, the party of austerity only for the weakest in society and the party of devil-take-the-hindmost.

There may be some in the Conservative Party for which that is true, but not all by any means.
I am sure there are also those in the Labour Party, and in the unions, whose main aim is to feather their own nests.

If you truly believe what you say then you probably also agree with Angela Rayners comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:25 PM

You may notice, Nigel, that personalities were not mentioned in the text you quote, just the party. If you look into what the parties stand for, the Conservatives are the party that believe capital is the most important part of the economic equation while the Labour Party, as you may guess, believe labour is more important. At its most basic, the Tories do, by policy, believe that profit is more important than people. While there may well be some good Tories, the overall party policy is as described.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:31 PM

it was interesting that angela rayner labelled tories as 'misogynistic, homophobe and racist' and no-one seemed to dispute that. it's only when she described people who indulged in that sort of behaviour as 'scum' that folk went all hypocritically, hoity-toity snowflake about it. when you look at all the often very personal abuse that diane abbott (what is a 'master cretin' in this context?) and jeremy corbyn have taken it is ridiculous for the right wing press and others to be so mock offended. she was correct i reckon - i've often heard the tories as described as far worse. i reckon ridicule is more effective than abuse - but either is fair enough

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:50 PM

the only creatures that would benefit from a party led by Bonzo would be Dogs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM

How about The Greyhound Party!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:54 PM

I'd always trust a dog more than a tory...!!!

.. are cat's even that self-centred and cruel...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:14 PM

"the only creatures that would benefit from a party led by Bonzo would be Dogs"

Then we'd be in deep doodah and we may even get banned...


See what I did there? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:14 PM

"the only creatures that would benefit from a party led by Bonzo would be Dogs"

Then we'd be in deep doodah and we may even get banned...


See what I did there? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM

Yes Steve, and you did it twice! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 02:49 AM

The Greyhound Party, ambivalent, could be about buses, couldbre about what dogs do at a party , what was the old joke about sniffing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 07:27 AM

Will members who voted leave/tory please force your children/ grandchildren to bathe at beaches that will be polluted by raw sewage now that the government has legalised dumping of untreated waste into rivers in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 07:53 AM

On a side issue, if the water companies have been able to pay £2.85 billion per year, the surely the government can afford to pay the companies this to subsidise water rates so each household pays about £114 less per year, and we can all get a £2,280 water charges rebate.   If the water companies pocket it - ie use it the pay higher dividends, then double, and countinue to redouble the subsidy until it reaches the householders. It will be a win win situation - we pay less, and the tory shareholders become rich beyond their wildest dreams - all at the tax-payers expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 07:57 AM

On a serious note, it is a pity John Fortune is no longer with us. The tories would have given the "two John's" (Bird and Fortune) so much material to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 08:01 AM

Once again PFR is closer to the truth than most of you.
Cruelty, insults and actual anti Christian attitudes are at the center of tory politics. Ignore it or deny it but it doesn't make it untrue.
Cruelty, violence and insult porn has replaced policy arguments in American politics. I see it happenung to your conservatives as well.

When I was a kid conservative politics was achieved by assasination.
JFK, RFK and MLK. Its pathetic but its possible we have improved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 08:13 AM

I think that there is something in what you saw, Donuel, but it does seem to be a worldwide phenomenon of populism vs politics. It was shown most dramatically with your last President but our current Prime Minister is no better. Although he can seem to hide it more. Putin is probably the first I noticed though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Something in what you SAY not saw.

Although there may be something in what you saw too :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 10:54 AM

Greed is good ?


Cruelty is cool ?


Crush the weak ?


Women belong to the strongest men ?


If you disagree, you will be destroyed ?


.. yeah.. I think I'm getting the hang of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 10:56 AM

oh well.. those ?s were "tick symbols" when I typed and previewed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 03:43 PM

Be warned: this government is robbing you of your right to challenge the state

David Davis

I am not sure how he has just realised, since it was written into the manifesto. He was always a bit slow on the uptake, I suppose.

As to whether you can call it 'stolen' when it is a manifesto commitment I am also unsure. Maybe it is something to do with just shouting "Get Brexit Done" rather than talking about the manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 03:59 PM

Just to head off the inevitable, I acknowledge he talked about people being robbed of their rights, rather than those rights being stolen from the people...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 04:26 AM

i believe parliament is discussing dealing with facebook and instagram, anyone got any more info

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 06:47 AM

Here's some basic information on the subject: Parliament

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 09:44 AM

More Tory lies

Remember my earlier link about Strategic Lying (23 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM)?

Well, they are still at it but this time they are lying and shitting on us at the same time! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 10:40 AM

From The Guardian article which Dave the Gnome linked to:

"But it is understood that in an analysis by the storm overflows taskforce, made up of the Environment Agency, the water industry and Ofwat, which is yet to be published, much more modest costings have been estimated for tackling the scourge of raw sewage discharges.

Sources say the figure of £660bn appears nowhere in the report. The Angling Trust said the report cites a range of lower-cost options for progressively dealing with the worst and most damaging sewage discharges ranging from £3.9bn to £62.7bn, with an impact on average water bills of between £19 and £58 a year.

It is also understood to estimate that an overall plan to reduce spills from storm overflows to an average of 10 a year in sensitive areas would cost between £13.5bn and £21.7bn."

But it is understood..
Sources say..
It is also understood..

We will have to wait and see what is in the storm overflows taskforce analysis but there does seem to be a huge difference of opinion on the costs involved.

The government have said they will look at this again. U turn around the u bend? We shall have to wait and see if they follow through on that promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 02:36 PM

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

France readies stricter Channel customs checks in post-Brexit fishing row

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 03:13 PM

What I can say for definite is for many years my old mum who lived on her own,
and used hardly much water at all,
was being charged exctly the same fixed rate as a young family with several kids..

I found this out when I took over looking after her bills.

She was obliviously in arrears to the local water company for well over 700 quid.

Which they insisted must be paid back without exception...!!!

Despite the customer service call worker ackowleging how unfair this was, she had to say "sorry no appeals permitted".
The customer [dis]service operative had no options other than fobbing us off with a scripted..

"..But your mum should have asked for a water meter to be installed, and just paid for what she used..."

So over past decades, how many confused and disorganised elderly folks with dementia
have fallen prey to this extortionate dirty water trick...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 04:03 PM

Yes, totally inequitable.
The water rates (as with local council rates) were based on the rateable value of the property. The charge was the same for similar sized/located properties whether they were occupied by one person or ten.
'Poll Tax' was an attempt to correct the inequality, but it proved unpopular.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 04:37 PM

South West Water, about once every couple of years, try to persuade us to have a meter, but we always decline. They are very unpushy. I have a big garden and need to water it a fair bit most summers. On the other hand, there's plentiful tons of water here in the south-west. And I pee on my compost heap, which saves 8 litres of water not flushed at least seven or eight times a day. More if I'm on the beer. Anyone for my organic veg? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 02:33 AM

It's easy to save water on flushing. Just remember -

If it's brown, flush it down
If it's yellow, let it mellow

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:29 AM

From The BBC

Impact of Brexit on economy 'worse than Covid'

"The impact of Brexit on the UK economy will be worse in the long run compared to the coronavirus pandemic, the chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility has said.

Richard Hughes said leaving the EU would reduce the UK's potential GDP by about 4% in the long term.

He said forecasts showed the pandemic would reduce GDP "by a further 2%".

"In the long term it is the case that Brexit has a bigger impact than the pandemic", he told the BBC.

His comments come after the OBR said the cost of living could rise at its fastest rate for 30 years, with suggestions inflation could hit almost 5%.

Speaking after Wednesday's Budget, Mr Hughes said recent data showed the impact of Brexit was "broadly consistent" with the OBR's assumption that the leaving the EU would "reduce our long run GDP by around 4%".

"We think that the effect of the pandemic will reduce that (GDP) output by a further 2%," he added.

The Treasury has been contacted for comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:49 AM

There are still deniers, Rain Dog. They voted for it so it must be good. They were not conned. It's all the fault of remoaners. Etc.

I can predict who will be on soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:56 AM

I don't think you need a formal analysis to come to that conclusion.   Covid will have a big hit, certainly, but you would expect it to decrease year by year after a certain point, especially as our ways of treating it improve. Brexit has a similar component in things like staffing, but when it comes to trading and such like, we would expect those consequences to repeat every year. So it is rather like comparing a capital cost with a recurring cost. Given enough time, the recurring cost will always dominate.

Exactly when depends on the initial costs and the recurring cost, and how long the recurring costs continue, but in the absence of any other information you would expect the one with recurring costs to cost more in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 04:39 AM

”There are still deniers, Rain Dog. They voted for it so it must be good. They were not conned. It's all the fault of remoaners. Etc.”

It’s understandable, Dave. It’s human nature to defend one’s own actions, and it’s human nature to avoid having to confess to being a deluded fool who allowed him/herself to be taken in, no matter the warnings, by the propaganda of a small cabal of immensely wealthy elites hell-bent on removing any, and every, check on their ability to grow their wealth exponentially, regardless of the cost to the vast majority of the population.

The Upward Flow of Wealth is the mantra of that cabal, money is their God, and they know exactly how to manipulate the careless and unthinking into aiding them in pursuing their aims.

It’s a damn shame that many of those who had their wits about them in June 2016 didn’t think enough to get out and vote in what, by any standards - even in the view of the Man-Frog - was a flawed Referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 05:03 AM

Use his proper name please, BWM.

The nicotine stained Man-Frog

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 07:20 AM

ROTFLMAO Dave! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 10:27 AM

Just driving home after dropping off my grandson at home when this came on my audio system. I hadn't appreciated how well it fits my view of both what Brexit vote and what has happened since:

Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues
We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
It might be a ladder to the stars, who knows?
Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues

Leave all your furrows in the fields where they lie
Your factories and offices, kiss them all goodbye
Have a little faith in the dream maker in the sky
There's glory in believing in
And it's all in the beholder's eye

Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues
We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
It might be a ladder to the stars, who knows?
Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues

Turn off your engines and slow down your wheels
Suddenly your master plan loses its appeal
Everybody knows that this reality's not real
So raise a glass to all things past
And celebrate how good it feels

Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues
We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
It might be a ladder to the stars, who knows?
Come all you no hopers, you jokers and rogues

Wash in the sea of our own vanity
We should rejoice in our individuality
Though winds, gale force
Will stear our course to insanity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 11:33 AM

Trouble is, it is the jokers and rogues that have turned all into no hopers on the road to nowhere :-(

Good song though and, yes, I see your point

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 01:54 PM

Just seen a horrendous meme on Faceache. A photo of a poppy badge containing the phrase "Lest we Forget" that has had the words "All Lives Matter" very badly Photoshopped onto it. I have no axe to grind about poppies but I found that grossly insulting to those who died fighting for justice and equality. Makes you proud to be British...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 02:15 PM

And who thinks that it's ok for Facebook to be permitting that. A blight on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:12 PM

This is just over an hour vid-cast, but worth watching if concerned about the unbridled power of social media...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMcEy14O-lg&t=129s&ab_channel=NovaraMedia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:43 PM

dave the gnome, are you British, most of us are of mixed races, YES I KNOW YOU WERE ATTEMPTING IRONY
.I always assumed you were Australian and Polish

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 03:46 PM

believe it or not,Dave, I was mistaken for a yank the other day in a butchers shop in Skibbereen, no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 04:28 PM

Dick, how many times have I told you not to wear a Stetson, six-gun in holster at your side, chewing on a cheroot and swagger into bars saying "Howdy, y'all, now who'd like a toon on the old honkytonk?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 05:08 PM

I have flagged it to the group (old school group) admins, Steve, but it takes a while. I told the bloke who posted it that I found it offensive but I suspect he is a Sun reader :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 05:28 PM

It's gone :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 06:51 PM

Good! You'll never persuade me that Facebook isn't the spawn of the devil, however...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 08:35 PM

What facebook? Facebook is gone. Its history now. They're changing their name to Meta.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 03:10 AM

I remember the nuclear waste reprocessing plant at Winscale changing its name to Sellafield when its reputation became toxic. I believe they also considered changing radiation to magic moonbeams.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 01:46 PM

Levelling up? Doesn't seem to be according to Dick Newby who is leader of the LibDems in the Lords and was treasury spokesman during the coalition. May be a bit biased but far from left wing and should know what he is talking about.

Budget will mean a fall in real income and growing inequality

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 03:09 PM

Meta...???

Bit like a PR rebranding of "Shit" into "Sugar"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 09:51 AM

i received this by e mail.A brave whistleblower just leaked secret Facebook documents... and they're shocking!

They show that Facebook knew. They knew that human traffickers used Facebook to lure women into sexual slavery. They knew that it was being used to incite violence against minorities. They knew that divisive lies and extremism were being promoted to millions all over the world. And they knew its systems were removing less than 1% of violent content.

Facebook knew all this. And yet, the whistleblower said, it has put “profits before people”.

That has to change -- and now's our chance. With in-depth investigations and bombshell media reports, Avaaz has helped force Facebook's shame onto the agenda of legislators across the world.

Now we're in the room with lawmakers from Europe to Brazil, fighting tooth and nail to win laws that protect people and democracy from social media's corrosive impact.

But we're up against some of the biggest companies in the world, unleashing their lobbying firepower to fight strong regulation and protect their profits. Last year alone Big Tech spent more than 100 million dollars on lobbying!

But this time, we can win. If we raise enough now, we can fund researchers to uncover more damning evidence, go head to head with the corporate lobbyists, bring testimonies of those harmed by social media to lawmakers, and show up at every key decision with hard-hitting ads and stunts demanding action.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 10:02 AM

Facebook is too big to fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 10:02 AM

Not exactly ‘news’, Sandman. It was reported in the Washington Post on 22/10/2021 - nine days ago…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/10/22/facebook-new-whistleblower-complaint/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 10:05 AM

And Steve makes a good point. Who, and in which country(ies), are the ones who will be willing to take steps to ‘fix’ FaceBook, bearing in mind the quantity of excrement it holds ready to heap on the heads of anyone who goes up against it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 10:33 AM

I do use it but limit both my audience and what I read but I am no Facebook apologist.

I note however that the above text is lifted directly from the Avaaz Website and is the message to convince people to 'chip in'.

We should understand that all Social Media sites, including this one, play their part in providing mis-information and a place for criminals and hate mongers to ply their trade. This is a world wide phenomenon and deserves a thread of its own rather than be placed in with the kaleidoscope of UK Politics!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 11:15 AM

This site is closely moderated, and the mods do a pretty decent job of removing promptly any offensive, insulting or threatening material. By so doing promptly (a key attribute), it encourages us to know that trying to post stuff like that isn't worth the effort. Jeremy Keith polices his Session website closely and assiduously, and members know that it simply isn't worth trying to post nonsense. Dick Gaughan's former website, the same (good old Molly...) You call these social media sites, Dave, and I suppose they are in a way, though I don't generally class them as such meself. Compared to behemoths such as Facebook they are tiny. In a way, that makes my point about too big to fix. BWM highlights one aspect of that, and another aspect is that smaller is more beautiful and more fixable. It would take an army of moderators to police Facebook as effectively as here. Two points about that: first, Facebook can well afford an army of moderators, but has always preferred profit over people, and why spend your profits if you can get away with not doing? Second, an army of moderators keeping Facebook clean and safe would have the far-right and the conspiracy theorists, and all the other multifarious do-badders who use it, deprived of the mass audience they so easily exploit, ranting and raving about the denial of democracy and free speech. It's gone to far to fix, it's too big to fix and it won't be fixed. Maybe a mass revolt and a rapid bleeding away of its members voting with their feet will be the only way. There again, I think I may be in cloud-cuckoo land...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 11:18 AM

TOO far to fix (in case Mrrzy's reading...)   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

Backwoodsman....Mudcat Rules You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.
may i remind you not everyone has access to the washington post

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM

The mòds here do indeed do a decent job, Steve, but there are still a lot of insults and hate posts left on even after some of the perpetrators were eventually removed. There is also a lot of misinformation that goes unchecked.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that it does happen on sites other than Faceache. Yes, it should be sorted there and the sooner they do it the better. Sadly though, a lot of the baby will go down the plughole with the bathwater in the process and some of the censorship will inadvertently damage the good bits too.

I still say that a discussion on a global phenomenon should be outside the UK politics thread as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:54 PM

”Backwoodsman....Mudcat Rules You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.
may i remind you not everyone has access to the washington post”

Coming, as it does, from someone whose postings frequently and copiously display all of those unpleasant attributes, I’m not interested in that kind of nonsense. You are absolutely the last person who should be preaching ‘Mudcat Rules’ at anyone here -Physician Heal Thyself

There was nothing offensive in my post, it was a perfectly straightforward piece of information delivered in a perfectly civil manner. I suggest you desist from your constant trolling and flaming, it’s childish and it makes you look foolish..

Regarding your comment about TWP, you have the same access to TWP as I do - it’s easily available by simply using your internet browser and doing a search - exactly as I did. But the Facebook whistleblower has been widely discussed in the press and on TV and radio - TWP is simply one source of information, but there are plenty of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:56 PM

And I agree with Dave - Facebook and it’s problems are a far wider issue than British politics, and really should be discussed in a separate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Nov 21 - 01:16 PM

Full Fact on sewage in the rivers and sea. Bit more murky than we all might have thought.

Murky claims about sewage bill fact checked

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 07:09 AM

So, has anyone been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour Revolution

I did post about it on the 18.10.21

I found it an interesting look at the problems of governing the country. "Events overtaking the agenda" as one of the contibutors said last night.

Well worth a watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 08:14 AM

Not seen it but it is on the list!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 11:29 AM

I was potentially interested until I found out it was a 5 episode series..

Five long bloody hours...!!!

Life's too short...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 01:22 PM

No 10 set to break promise of 6,000 more GPs in England, Sajid Javid says

Health secretary admits target unlikely to be met owing to numbers of doctors retiring early

The Guardian

"No 10 is likely to break its promise to increase the number of GPs in England by 6,000, Sajid Javid has admitted. The health secretary disclosed that the figure, a key promise in the Conservatives’ general election manifesto in 2019, was unlikely to be met given the number of GPs retiring early.

He made the disclosure while giving evidence to the cross-party Commons health select committee. Asked by the committee chair, Jeremy Hunt, if the government was on track to implement the 6,000 pledge, Javid relied: “No. I’m not going to pretend that we’re on track when we are clearly not.”"

We tend to get more truthful responses during these committee meetings. More sensible and adult behaviour than is normally the case in the house of commons 'debates'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 06:26 PM

They've got to find 6000 people who want to be GPs first, same as any government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:00 AM

It would help considerably if they treated the NHS as a national treasure rather than trying to break it up to line their pockets. Right from the outset the Tories were opposed to the NHS. As I said earlier they are the party of profit over people. Until they stop selling it off, they will never find enough people. You're an accountant, Bonzo, would you invest in an organisation that is being asset stripped by its owners?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:03 AM

The NHS is a good idea, if your population is in good health it is likely to work better, one of the benificiaries of the NHS has been the Pharmaceutical industry.
if only the very wealthy are in good health, the country is not going to get the best use of the best brains, has the run down of the NHS over the years contributed to poor political decision making, eg Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:36 AM

Nigel Farage’s Brexit party saved Labour seats in 2019 election, analysis finds

Experts say while party failed to win a seat they may have denied Boris Johnson a landslide by splitting vote

The Guardian

"Nigel Farage’s Brexit party may have saved up to 25 Labour seats in the Midlands and the north at the 2019 general election, denying Boris Johnson a landslide majority of 130, according to new analysis.

Farage’s party failed to win a single seat in December 2019 as Boris Johnson sought to hammer home the message that the Conservatives would “get Brexit done”.

But elections experts John Curtice, Stephen Fisher and Patrick English say that by attracting Leave-supporting former Labour voters who might otherwise have backed the Conservatives, Farage may have significantly cut the scale of Labour’s defeat.

By modelling the behaviour of Labour Leavers elsewhere, they suggest that in the absence of a Brexit party candidate, 70% would likely have turned to the Tories and 30% stuck with Labour. Meanwhile, Conservative voters who switched to Farage’s party were likely to have voted for Johnson."

Things might have been worse. Unfortunately Labour are unlikely to have Farage's help in the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:54 AM

Well.. the tories used to cherry pick the most naturally intelligent working class kids for Grammar School gentrification..

Then educate, and indoctrinate them to aspire to establishment middle class career and lifestyle.

So they become useful fodder for the middle management jobs public school kids were too superior and important to waste their lives doing..

But more importantly, to divert brighter working class kids from becoming evil class warfare commie revolutionaries...

Nowadays tories seem to have dropped that strategy, and just give universally shite education to all pleb kids..

The tories must have developed new cheaper methods for containing and preventing mass working class radical politicisation...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 06:08 AM

Just read that a pharmacy in my old home town of Swinton is doing private (read paid) consultations for minor ailments. I don't know if this is widespread or not but as they are supposed to do these things on the NHS for free, I am gobsmacked! It is sickening. Well, it would be if people could afford to be sick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 08:51 AM

Meat carcasses sent to EU for butchering amid UK worker shortage

Great Britain’s beef producers export to Ireland before reimporting, while pork processors consider the Netherlands

The Guardian

"Meat processors in Great Britain are having to export carcasses destined for domestic consumption to the EU for butchering because of the shortage of skilled workers in the industry.

Beef producers are exporting carcasses to Ireland for butchering and packing, says Nick Allen, the chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association, before the products are brought back to Great Britain to be sold in supermarkets.

Meanwhile, pork processors are looking into shipping pig carcasses to the Netherlands to be butchered, as first reported by the Financial Times. This is despite the government announcing a post-Brexit immigration policy U-turn last month that would temporarily extend the seasonal worker visa scheme to include pork butchers.

The move was aimed at preventing a widespread cull of healthy pigs on farms because of a lack of capacity at abattoirs and meat processing plants. However, 10,000 of the animals have been killed so far, according to the National Pig Association, and the cull continues."

So hopefully i should be getting my pigs in blankets this christmas, even if they are likely to be more expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 10:32 AM

nigel farges brexit party made an electoral pact with the conservatives, to not stand in certain seats, but to stand in others where they took votes from the labour party Thurrock was an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 02:51 PM

The Labour party has had a data breach. Now, bear in mind that I resigned from the party when Sir Keith sacked Becky Long-Bailey back in June last year you may be surprised to hear that I just got this.

Wednesday 3 November 2021
Dear Sir / Madam,
We are writing to you to let you know that a third party that handles data on our behalf has been subject to a cyber incident. While the Party’s investigation remains ongoing, we wanted to make you aware of this incident and the measures which we have taken in response. We have also provided details of precautionary steps you may consider taking to help protect yourself.
What happened?
On 29 October 2021, we were informed of the cyber incident by the third party. The third party told us that the incident had resulted in a significant quantity of Party data being rendered inaccessible on their systems. As soon as the Party was notified of these matters, we engaged third-party experts and the incident was immediately reported to the relevant authorities, including the National Crime Agency (NCA), National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) and the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). The Party continues to work closely with each of these authorities. The Party is also working closely and on an urgent basis with the third party in order to understand the full nature, circumstances and impact of the incident. The Party’s own data systems were unaffected by this incident.
What information was involved?
We understand that the data includes information provided to the Party by its members, registered and affiliated supporters, and other individuals who have provided their information to the Party. The full scope and impact of the incident is being urgently investigated.


Shower of shits. Tory mismanagement seems to rubbing off on everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 03:18 PM

They're all bound to blame it on Corbyn stealing data for his commie handlers in the Kremlin...


.. it's not as if Israel or America would do anything as dodgy as this...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 03:39 PM

A lot third parties in that notification. Reads like a marx brothers routine.

A sign of the times. So many fuckers trying to steal data nowadays. Sign of the times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:25 PM

DAVE I received the same E MAIL

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:54 PM

Me too. Obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 03:31 AM

My point being that I have not been a party member for over a year. Why are they holding on to my details? Maybe I should sue :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 04:17 AM

yes, i left the party sometime ago, too

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:02 AM

Is there evidence that the cyber attack was not orchestrated by tory backers to distract attention away from the tory party letting Owen Patterson of the hook for corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:19 AM

Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:26 AM

Owen Paterson: Government U-turn over MPs' conduct plan

Yet another example of the shambolic behaviour of this government.

Who is giving them advice?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 10:41 AM

Rain Dog - Satan...???

.. the tories must surely by now have made enough human sacrifices to please their master...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 10:53 AM

Patterson has now resigned. Showed the Tories up for the corrupt crew they are though.

Boris is at it again too. What a knob!


We now have a prime minister who thinks melting ice caps provide ‘opportunities’ – just let that sink in

Where to start on that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 11:57 AM

Water on the brain, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 10:50 AM

There has been talk of an independent standing as the sole opposition in Paterson's bye-election, but Labour has said they will not stand aside. Probably whoever the Tories pick will win anyway, but I think that approach ensures it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 11:32 AM

When Martin Bell stood against Neil Hamilton it was in a general election, not a by-election. The turnout will likely be low, favouring the Tory. In addition, Bell stood against the sleazeball Hamilton. In this by-election, Paterson isn't standing. Nice idea, but overwhelmingly likely to be a damp squib and another chance for Johnson to do his sword of truth bit. So I'm with Labour on this. Just an ordinary by-election will do. The Tories will almost certainly win anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 11:39 AM

I think we both agree the Tories will probably win just because of how safe a seat it is.

But let's imagine Labour won. The effect on Johnson's majority is marginal. There have been no votes this session where a change of one 'yes' to a 'no' would have mattered.

I would say it is more beneficial to Labour and the country as a whole to use the bye-election to keep the focus on sleaze for the period of the bye-election, or at least to revive it the day or two before.

All other candidates will have to explain Labour policy, or Lib Dem, or Green or whatever. An anti-sleaze candidate can keep the focus on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 01:14 PM

Jess Phillip's speech on the Standards debate is well worth hearing, though I suspect it not be one of the parts highlighted in the press. If you get a change to hear it, I would seek it out (around 18:05 in a recording.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:33 AM

So the UK haS a shortage of healthcare workers, SO THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ALL WORKERS MUST BE VACCINATED BY APRIL FIRST.Is this the smartest way to overcome a shortage of workers, would it not be more clever to increase the pay of vaccinated health workers.
i understood there were 135 thousand unvaccinated health care workers, if they all leave or if the majority leave, there will be an increased shortage of health workers, the situation is further exacerbated by the uk no longer being in europe, and preasumably not able to draw on vqccinated european potential workers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:48 AM

who knows, the next idea could be to retrain them as lorry drivers, or perhaps like norman tebbits dad ,they will have to get on a bike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:54 AM

NORTHERN IRELAND,might find itself in a position where uk health workers leave to work in rep of ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:03 AM

NORTHERN IRELAND,might find itself in a position where uk health workers leave to work in Rep of Ireland Or Wales or Scotland which have not adopted this rule.

Although it might result in a reduction in the number of health workers I agree (in principle) that health workers should be vaccinated.
At the moment Covid is more likely to lead to hospitalisation, and possibly death, for the unvaccinated. I doubt that health workers would be unaffected by this, meaning that their possibility of death if they catch Covid is greater than for vaccinated health workers. This would also reduce the health service work force, but would increase the possibility of having passed on the disease to colleagues and patients.

We hear a lot of campaigners saying that this infringes their rights, and they should be allowed to make their own choice. Fine, but that choice is whether to work in the health service, or to avoid having the vaccine. Except for those with medical exemptions there is no reason to have unvaccinated people working in the front-line health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:12 AM

.. OR..

Set up separate isolated wards where only unvaccinated health workers care for unvaccinated covid patients..

Researchers can observe how long they all last, triumphantly festering in the mutual victory
of their uninfringed rights...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:19 AM

less likely to go to wales or scotland, it is not on the same island, its easy for people to travel ten or twenty miles across the border.
   I have been vaccinated, but that is not the point, if you are short of workers you need to increase their pay, and improve their working conditions eg ventilation, not just rely on trying to scare people into being vaccinated.
if people have died who are health care workers, i understand this is the case, and IF those people were vaccinated, it proves that the vaccines need to be improved and ventilation needs to be improved.
i understand your point about health care workers dying in the past, but without stats to tell us how many were vaccinated or not vaccinated or had underlying health conditions, no conclusions can be drawn.-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 12:51 PM

"Although it might result in a reduction in the number of health workers I agree (in principle) that health workers should be vaccinated."

There's a bit of a difference between "should" and "must." I could never agree that vaccination, an invasive medical procedure, should be made compulsory under pain of dismissal. The democratic way is to use education and persuasion to convince doubters to take the vaccine.

However, I think this may become almost a non-issue. In France, making the jab compulsory for health workers increased the uptake from 60% to 99%. I have a feeling that Sadge reached his decision having received that knowledge.

I've had my flu jab and I'm having my booster jab on Saturday. Cases are very high round here but the jab will make me feel a tad safer. I feel sorry for Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 02:24 PM

I think we have had this discussion before, Steve. If you want to drive a car, you must wear a seat belt. If you want to ride a motor bike, you must wear a crash helmet. If you want to work in health care, you must have a jab. OK. you may say that none of the former two are invasive. Well, the latter is not for all time is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 02:58 PM

Sorry - Badly put. You don't have to do the latter every time you go to work is what I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:01 PM

Well maybe I'm being devil's advocate, but the point here about the *invasive* nature of vaccination is unarguable, and that does not apply to seatbelts or crash hats. On the other hand, the actual invasive aspect of a vaccination is trivial. I know that, you know that, tens of millions know that. But millions do NOT know that. They have been hoodwinked by idiots on Facebook into thinking that the vaccine is dangerous. They have somehow missed out on the fact that side effects of any severity are extremely rare. The government did an absolutely shite, groaningly head-in-hands job of not reassuring people about side effects last spring. The mass media bigged up the exceptionally rare, and unproven, cases of severe side effects. What that leads to is millions of people dubious about the vaccine. When we had the Aids "Don't die of ignorance" campaign, we had telly adverts and we had billboards everywhere. It struck home. So where are the telly ads and the billboards telling us to get the jab, reassuring us that your arse won't actually drop off if you get jabbed?

And I think I mentioned Facebook there, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:49 PM

if you care about the importance of health workers improve their working conditions eg ventilation, show appreciastion by improving their wages. once upon a time uk had fever hospitals which were designed for a specific purpose.
now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 07:30 AM

The current issue of Private Eye, no. 1560, has an 8 page special report called Profits of Doom - the companies and middlemen who cashed in on covid...and how they did it.

It makes for a depressing read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 08:15 AM

"now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties"

Interesting to see that the Labour Party which has not been in power for over 11 years is being blamed for the failures of the Conservative government of that period.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 06:44 PM

"now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties"

It might just be me, but I would have thought that "having difficulty coping" was an improvement on "in crisis"

If that statement was a quote then a citation might help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 21 - 05:39 AM

Sorry!
Didn't spot that it was a quote from earlier in the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 07:33 PM

From an ITN report on the Tory Party conference of 2006:

David Cameron said the NHS is safe in his hands as he brought the annual Conservative conference to an end.

Mr Cameron accused Labour of mismanaging the health service and said he would be taking to the streets with a campaign to stop the cuts.

Mr Cameron called the NHS was one of the 20th Century's greatest achievements.

"Tony Blair explained his priorities in three words: education, education, education," he told Tory activists in Bournemouth.

"I can do it in three letters: NHS."

Well let's see. We all know that the Tories, in essence, have been in power for eleven years. We've all heard about how A&E departments have failed for years to meet their targets. We've all seen the queues of ambulances outside hospitals and the patients on trolleys in corridors. We know about how elderly patients can't be discharged because there are no places for them in care homes. We know that nearly six million people are on waiting lists and can expect to wait for one, two or three years to be treated. Actually, there are probably millions more who can't even be bothered to GET on those waiting lists, as they know it would be pointless. I'm one of 'em. I have an issue with my other shoulder (not the one mentioned below) that I can't even get referred for and which I know I'll take to my grave (I've been trying for 21 months and the best I can get is a scrappy emailed page of "exercises" from a physio who won't even see me in person).

Mrs Steve and I have NHS treatment only.

In 2011 Mrs Steve and I had a big issue with her eye problems. She had many procedures and expert care in a Plymouth hospital (that has now been closed down). Not once did any wait for treatment get even close to breaching the 18-week target in place at the time. She's fine now, by the way, thanks to some superb treatment that I'm bloody certain she wouldn't be able to get in timely fashion today. A year or so later I had two issues, once with a bad shoulder and once, more seriously, with my back. For both issues I was referred to a consultant and operated on within six weeks. Six weeks. A pipe dream even for some urgent cancer patients these days... We were bloody lucky. Three or four years later we'd have been in real trouble.

The reason I'm posting this is that I've just seen some graphs on government spending on the NHS since 1949 (source: BBC News website). I can't post the graphs, I know you can look them up for yourselves, but here's the essence. My numbers are honest approximations.

In every administration since 1949, government spending on health has been above inflation (but don't get excited...).

VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS 1949-1979: 3.5% above inflation (roughly the average for the last 70 years).

TORIES 1979-1997 (Thatcher-Major): 3.3%

NEW LABOUR 1997-2010 (Blair-Brown): 6%

COALITION 2010 -2015, Cameron PM): 0.9%

TORIES 2015-2019 (May-Johnson): 1.7%

David Cameron said the NHS is safe in his hands

Yeah, right. So Boris isn't the only liar...

And another set of graphs compared the UK to several EU countries.

As of 2020, the UK had 8.4 nurses per 1000 people.

Germany, 13.9.

France, 11.1.

Italy, 6.7



As of 2020, the UK had three doctors per 1000 people.

Germany, 4.5.

France, 3.4.

Italy, 4.0.

Safe in his hands. sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 03:21 AM

Well it is not easy to have a sensible conversation about the NHS. It has been likened to a new religion here in the UK.

It does eat up money. No matter how much it is given there is always a need for more. We all have to decide how much we are prepared to pay for it.

++

"Setting the first NHS budget in 1948 was no easy task. The Beveridge report, the 1942 blueprint for the welfare state, suggested £130m.

But as the appointed day grew closer estimates varied, from £108m in the 1944 white paper, then £122m in various cabinet papers, and £134m in the NHS bills laid before Parliament. Some independent estimates put the cost at nearer £230m.

In fact, price rises, higher standards and simple errors in forecasting demand and costs meant that for the full financial year the actual spend turned out to be £373m - in today's prices this was equivalent to around £10.5bn, around a tenth of the NHS budget in 2007."

Data briefing: why NHS budgets have always been a bugbear

++

I even heard recently that Beveridge expected costs to fall as people became healthier. How wrong was he?

Ideally there needs to be cross party agreement on planning for health and social care. I don't think that is likely in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:19 AM

We have just lost a very good friend to a heart attack while he was in the very long queue to have a stent:-(

Yes, queues have been worse due to Covid
Yes, the cost of health care is very high
No, none of that justifies needless deaths because the shower of shits in power want to make more millions for their mates

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:34 AM

You are sidestepping the issue I've painstakingly described, Raindog. We know all that stuff you've brought up. My intention was simply to highlight the significant differences between the spending on health by successive administrations. The inescapable conclusion is that the NHS has been systematically run down by the Cameron/May/Johnson administrations. The numbers flesh out the stuff we've seen regarding queues, waiting lists and unnecessary deaths (as Dave mentions). They confirm the impressions we get from media reporting on the NHS and also confirm that Tories are cynical liars when they profess to care about the health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:07 AM

I don't know how many of you watched the recent 2 part series on BBC 2

Inside the Care Crisis witb Ed Balls

In this two-part series, Ed Balls explores the crisis in the care sector, immersing himself in a care home before entering the world of paid and unpaid home care.

++

It gives an insight into the care industry. He was honest enough to admit that the problem has been ignored by nearly all governments, including the one he was part of himself.

Social care and health are very closely entwined. We have ended up with a system where health care is nationalised but social care is mainly privately run. The councils have had their funding cut and they in turn have cut back on what they spend on social care, yet the demand is rising.

I have said before that all governments have chosen to ignore this problem. It is only now that Johnson has announced his plans to 'sort the social care problem'. Of course he hasn't sorted it but at least he has started the ball rolling. It needs a cross party consensus to sort it, but like i said i doubt we will see that anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:38 AM

It is in America's ideological and profiteering interests to make sure our NHS fails...

To this end, America has the power and the influence,
to count on help from obedient allied factions of our UK tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:53 AM

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the NHS is still one of the largest employers in the world, despite the numerous tory governments we have had since it was formed. Things just carry on with different governments tinkering with it in our usual British way.

And yet...

As Steve pointed out, other countries have more doctors per head of population, have better records of care in dealing with various ailments than we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 06:08 AM

Rain Dog - What I describe is the 'real world' in which our vulneable little island's NHS struggles to survive...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 06:33 AM

Pfr, I would not say that it struggles to survive. It does struggle to provide an adequate service due to the overwhelming demand. It is some of the patients who struggle to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:03 AM

Rain Dog - you can say what you like, but it does not mean you grasp the full wider political reality...

Powerful Americans and their allies, do not want the British NHS
to continue existing for too much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:18 AM

What they want and what they get are two different things.

I don't expect that either you or me will see any major changes to the NHS in our lifetime, pfr. Admittedly our lifetime might be shorter than we previously expected.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:28 AM

Rain Dog - on all that we can agree..

.. and doubtful we will see any improvements in the NHS...

cheers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 01:49 PM

I suspect quite a number of the traditional Labour voters who were fooled by Bozos smoke and mirrors during the last election have already had their eyes opened by the damage already done by Brexit and the blatant profiteering of the Tories. For those that are still in denial I hope the scrapping of plans to improve transport links in the North will show them what this bunch of smarmy Eton gobshites really think of them. Expendable.

Don't get me wrong, I think HS2 was a disaster waiting to happen and i am glad it has been shelved. But all this talk of the northern powerhouse and levelling up was just another con trick. I'm amazed how many people, including some on here, are still apologists for the conmen that are taking money off them.

Talking of Bozo, I saw one of those lists of changed words today. My favourite was "bozone". The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas penetrating. Quite apt I thought :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:37 PM

DtG - "bozone" - that applies aptly to many of my real life neighbours on the local NextDoor App..

[in the extremely conservative/ukip town I'm stuck living in..]

I have to be careful how I argue with 'em, because they know my real name, and where I live...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:08 PM

I see Prati Patel is at it again too

New bill quietly gives powers to remove British citizenship without notice

We really are living in a nightmare. My Dad was Polish and came to England after living the nightmare of German and Russian extremism and then joining Anders' Army to fight fascism. He was so happy when he got his British Citizenship because he new he was then safe from being ever forcibly shipped to work camps or being ethnically cleansed. He will be turning in his grave at the efforts this evil woman is going to to deprive British citizens of their basic human rights. What will be next? Revoking citizenship if they are costing the state too much?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 02:44 AM

Northern Ireland is sitting pretty at the moment - it effectively has the advantages of EU membership even though it's politically aligned with the UK.
The people yelling about it are hardline British nationalists who are horrified that their statelet isn't suffering the same problems as Britain. And of course Boris Johnson seizes on their protests, which are a wonderful distraction from the real hardship being suffered in Britain.
The EU will undoubtedly loosen some of the health rules on the inspection of goods coming into Northern Ireland; this is not a good thing, in fact. But even doing this will not stop the Unionist yells; they are offended by any difference in Northern Irish and British law. (Except, of course, in cases such as abortion rights, which they keep determinedly Texan, unlike Britain.)
For those who can't understand what's going on, Northern Ireland is the Deep South; the Republic of Ireland is California.
Unlike the early years of the Irish Free State, when Ireland was a fascist state, with suppression of women's rights, devotion to one religion, state censorship of books, films, plays and newspapers, worship of a strongman and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 02:49 AM

"the Republic of Ireland is California"

California?

Thanks for the laugh to start the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 04:19 AM

"Northern Ireland is the Deep South"

!970s Comedians must be spinning in their graves trying to work that one into their stand up routines...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 07:23 PM

Well we had a massive family gathering in deepest Scrumpyshire this evening. There's me who, in the last 18 months, has had a bad shoulder that I can't get seen to, and two terrible bouts of cellulitis (one life-threatening, with an overnight stay in A&E) that I couldn't even see my GP face-to-face about. And there's my sis-in-law, an incredibly dedicated GP who works mainly with students in Exeter. We were both nearly in tears, me regaling her with my woes, her telling us that she was working 13 hours a day, every day, until she dropped...

We're both still here. But she might not be for long. The stresses and strains of being a GP in this country are just too much. I think that this is a pattern repeating right though the NHS and the care sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 09:32 AM

".... who are horrified that their statelet isn't suffering the same problems as Britain. "

As a hard-line INTERNATIONLIST and a Londoner, I am disgusted that I am getting less-preferential treatment than my fellow citizens in Northern Island. If they are entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of a single market and customs unions, then unless the EU can show that I am somehow inferior to other human being and therefore less deserving of human rights, and therefore only worthy of extermination, this is clear discrimination - people in the same country being treated less favourably because of their postcode.

it is not difficult to resolve this. I have no problem with those who voted leave, bigots, xenophobes and racists getting what they voted for, but even an idiot can set up a system to ensure that the rights of pro-European individuals are 100% protected and have identical rights as ALL EU nationals. All it takes is ensuring border systems recognise who does and doesn't have freedom of movement on an individual basis, ensuring that all produce purchased by pro-Europeans are tariff free and not held up by border checks. The only barrier is that this would probably costs billions to implement - a small price for human decency.

End of self-righteous, ironic rant for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 01:32 PM

If hard line Northern Irelanders are so obsessed about being British..
.. Why not ship 'em all out to the Falklands...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 04:12 PM

PF, R
ulster would say no

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 12:39 PM

Donny - please remember we are only allowed ONE British thread,
primarily for BRITISH mudcatters to discuss important BRITISH matters of concern to US [not USA]...

There are always several other threads [usually started by yourself]
where self indulgent poetical Americans are more than welcome to pontificate...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

I guess we have all heard about Bozos ramblings in Peppa Pig world. Do you think he may be trying to reprise Camoron's antics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 09:56 PM

Tell me more about this Peppa Pig your PM's so enamored with. Inquiring Yanks wish to know.

"vroom vroom"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 12:39 AM

The absurd/tragic reality of it is..
.. it might be safer having this amoral fukwit remain our PM,
than any of his even worse tory rivals eager to take over from him...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 02:44 AM

There ya go Robomatic :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 03:00 AM

the problem with that, pfr, is that he is more likely to win elections than any other tories, he seems to appeal to the electorate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 06:53 AM

Good news.

Downing Street has finially issued clear Covid guidance.

The following restrictions will take effect at exactly 0:00!

A respirator should be worn by everyone in the sign of Virgo, Libra and Aquarius, as well as all Suzuki owners unless they wear green socks.

If you are currently riding a bike and passing in front of house number 17, you are not obliged, you can skip this provision.

If you live in a yellow house, you cannot leave it until the door on the street opens to traffic. But that is not true if there is a School within fifty meters from your residence, because yes, if not.

Next vaccination of vaccinated will be sixth, no matter how many jabs you have received, you must pass it to the one sitting in front of your right shoulder.

Work only then unless the place of vaccination is determined, otherwise a virus test.

The sacrifice of black cats is suspended indefinitely during the full moon, with the exception of those with a vaccination card.

If for someone, the level of antibodies do not reach the minimum, this level is at the maximum, but only if it keeps a distance of two meters.

Women can leave their homes on weekdays only if they are married, not if they have children, if they have not 2 children of the same sex, but the age difference is not more than 2 years. This rule does not apply to children between the ages of 4-10 unless they have a cap on their head.

Hope this is all clear now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 08:12 AM

Peppa Pig World is something like half an hour from where I live - I pass signs to it frequently, though I have never been (even though our PM says we "must") It is within a larger theme park "Paulton's Park", which I have never been to either, though for the first few years we lived here my wife would occasionally say 'there is a park nearby we have not been to' and I would remind her it is a theme park, so she would not be interested.

It is closed at the moment, and I was told it was closed all November. It is not easy to see if it was open on Sunday, but I have found a review from someone for the right day, so I presume the person who told me it was closed was mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 08:12 AM

SPB - Makes a lot more sense than Bozo!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 06:10 PM

Thanks DtG!

I saw several minutes of the PM's talk and was reminded of our U.S. previous occupant, just that Boris seemed more cheerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 12:43 PM

He hasn't prompted anyone to invade the house of commons yet but give him time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 05:16 PM

At a joint press conference flanked by the UK’s chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance, and England’s chief medical officer, Chris Whitty, Johnson said that people in England would be required to wear face masks again on public transport and in shops. Downing Street later confirmed that masks would become mandatory in shops and on public transport from “next week” but “all hospitality settings will be exempt”

It is always dangerous to make assumptions with anything Johnson says, but let us assume being 'required' to means it is a legal requirement to, with a fine or other penalty if you are found to be in breach.

What level of rebellion is there likely to be? The vast majority of comments on Facebook alongside the official announcement were people saying they would not. Steve has raised many objections to being required to wear a mask, and if those comments are representative he is far from alone. If it is a legal requirement, how will it be enforced? There are not enough police to do so other than by spot checks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 06:02 PM

Johnson’s announcement won’t affect me. Public transport is virtually non-existent here in the Backwoods, and I’ve never stopped wearing a mask in shops and other indoor public spaces. I really don’t understand why there’s so much fuss from the anti-mask brigade, words like ‘grow’, ‘fuck’, and ‘up’ spring to mind.

The usual disclaimers apply - IMHO, YMMV, IOSTBTBDO, yadda yadda…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 06:54 PM

Well I'm not a mask rebel and will always don a mask if legally required. But absolutely not under any other circumstances. My background is in science and I know how to interpret evidence, and I also know how to avoid confirmation bias. Evangelical mask advocates are generally guilty of just that. God, the trouble I've had with Maggie... Whilst I can't prove it, I'm of the opinion that mask-wearing is of limited or no value, and I know that alleged evidence in favour of mask-wearing is purely observational only (which is precisely the kind of evidence that cavemen had when they concluded that the sun goes round the earth). That does not mean that I'm anti-mask, and I fully respect anyone who feels safer, whatever it is, with a mask on. I've been saying for weeks that Johnson is looking for an excuse to roll back on his blatant July lie that the lifting of restrictions would be irreversible. This new variant, which is almost certainly going to be no worse than any previous ones, is his ideal excuse. Cue the banning of Christmas, or, at best, telling us that we can only mix with our loved ones in sixes, etc. We have a government replete with incompetent control freaks. The more they do this stuff, the easier it will be for them to do it more and more in years to come.   Let's be warned!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 07:32 PM

Incidentally,

"I really don’t understand why there’s so much fuss from the anti-mask brigade, words like ‘grow’, ‘fuck’, and ‘up’ spring to mind."

Well your attitude is predicated, just like mine, on your personal opinion. I fully understand why some people choose to wear masks, even when not mandated to do so, and (as I've said many times here), I respect that fully. Unlike a few people I know, I'm not a mask rebel and have always obeyed whatever rules have been in force.

So I don't appreciate being told that I have to "grow up" (your usual uncalled-for expletive deleted...) by someone whose opinion has absolutely no more validity than mine, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 07:36 PM

In the words of Michelle of the Resistance, "I shall say this only once..." ...or should...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:03 AM

I think the new restrictions are too weak, personally, but in one sense I am relieved at a personal level.

I follow Northern Ballet fairly closely. Some years ago, I went to see their opening night of a brand new ballet called 'Geisha'. It very next day, all the theatres were closed because of covid restrictions, so this turned out to be the only public performance ever.

On Thursday I am due to see their new production "Merlin". This has has a few performances now - maybe 10 in about three theatres. I thought it unlikely but not impossible theatres would be shut down again in this announcement. Since they are not, I will at least get to see it.

All that is very selfish, though. Keeping such mass gatherings in enclosed spaces is not a good idea at all with any variant, and with one that may evade the vaccines (to some extent) the trade off between risk and economic damage changes. So I think it quite possible we see such restrictions again after Christmas. The government will strongly resist doing it before if it possibly can.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:24 AM

2500 by the way. And a chance to report an irritation that I seem to have been pronouncing 'omicron' incorrectly for more than 50 years. (o-micron)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:25 AM

Damn! 2400, not 2500. What a time for a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:48 AM

:-)

You are probably pronouncing it right. As in "I am Lrr of Omicron Persei 8" from Futurama

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 05:07 AM

how many new hospitals have been built, how many public buildings have had money spent on improving ventilation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 06:51 AM

I haven't been to any mass gatherings, nor inhabited a pub, for almost two years and am not planning to change that. I simply can't understand why I wouldn't, from Tuesday, be required to wear a mask for a four-hour Saturday night visit to a crowded pub, yet would be forced to for a 15-minute evening visit to Morrisons. Avoiding crowds, sanitising my hands and supermarket trolleys and keeping my distance all make sound scientific sense and don't require laws. Wearing a leaky mask that gets rapidly contaminated, which then contaminates my hands, then mixing with hordes of people all in that boat, many of who possess a delusionally-false sense of security, does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:29 AM

They should have named it Omega. Even our US talking heads are saying o-micron. Our news graphics show UK, Ireland and Germany in red for Omicron but since it has been found in Kentucky it is certainly in the US but there seems to be a lid on reporting. A spike in reported new cases > 40% does NOT SHOW ANYTHING BEYOND AN INCREASE IN TRANSMISSABILITY so there is reason to hope that severity has not increased. Moderna and Pfizer is making a mrna vaccine to be on the safe side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 09:11 AM

At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection. My concern is that I would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 10:51 AM

I am still going seeing Maddy Prior and the Carnival Band next Saturday unless it is cancelled. No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at.

I fully understand your points about masks, Steve, but still think you are wrong. Masks do provide at least some protection from the moisture droplets that carry the virus. Neither the droplets nor the virus are like germs and they are not intelligent enough to negate the obstacle presented by a physical barrier no matter how leaky round the edges. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 11:41 AM

"No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at"

Some years ago, I was lucky enough to go to the Galapagos Islands. While there, a woman remarked "This is so barren. No self respecting animal would live here."

It takes all sorts ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:01 PM

"At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection."

Absolutely not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:25 PM

Part of the definition of a virus when I was doing biology at university was that it was a non-filterable particle, Dave. It takes a lot more than a flimsy, leaky mask to stop a virus particle. Sure, your mask will trap snotty little droplets. Two things may then happen. The droplet will soak to the front of the mask then dry out, leaving free virus particles. But you'll feel nice and safe, even though your mask, which you'll touch unless you're a saint, is riddled with virus particles that will take off at the merest encouragement. Or your mask will stay soggy and, well, full of viruses, which you won't know about, and then you'll blithely do the wrong thing with it (shove it in your pocket next to your tenners, whack it on your dashboard, slip it down your chin until the next shop, save it for tomorrow...Unless you're a saint. I haven't seen too many of those. And of course you can behave badly with your mask and still not be a danger to anyone. In fact, that applies to the vast majority of mask wearers that you see. Why? Because they haven't bloody got it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:31 PM

On pronunciation:   My daughter - who I taught the Greek alphabet to before she started primary school during one of our games - is also annoyed at the way it is being said. She has told told me Cambridge online agrees with the one we always used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 02:11 PM

Steve - good job I'm a 'saint' then...

My inner 'Stalin' dictates it's about time to bring in detention camps for militant anti-vaxxers / maskers..

Those islands in the Bristol channel would make do for a start...

One of them already has a derelict isolation hospital leftover from an earlier historic disease crisis..

A tin of paint and a bag of nails should do the job getting it up and running again.
Repurposed for detaining and 'culturally re-educating' Covid denying and spreading antisocial bell ends...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 02:26 PM

CONCERN:
noun
1. anxiety; worry.
"such unsatisfactory work gives cause for concern"
Similar: anxiety
2. A matter of interest or importance to someone.
"I am concerned that responding to people like you know who may be ill, would be cruel and unfair."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:45 PM

The fact is, Donuel old bean, that your statement is an actual lie. No-one has said that vaccines may give us NO protection against this variant. No-one. And your wriggling insinuations reveal to the world, or at least to a handful of Mudcatters, that you are a fool.

Pfr, thank God I don't fit the bill for your suggested exile. Though Lundy is very nice. The problem is the trip to it on that sick-bucket of a boat. I know. I did it in 1992 and am still in recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 05:29 PM

Sorry, Steve, but I still think you are wrong. You cannot prove to me, nor I to you, that a mask will make matters better or worse. You believe it will make things worse. I, and most of the medical and scientific community, believe it will make things better. I know who I will go with. You may well be a scientist but I am a computer engineer with many years of experience in troubleshooting. The first thing I ask when things go wrong is "What has changed?" I cannot say for certain what made the difference this time because so many rules altered. But one of them was the relaxation of wearing masks. Let us roll back the changes until the spread of the virus halts. The easiest one is to reintroduce the wearing of masks. I, for one, will go with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 06:28 PM

Right from the start I've shared some of Steve's doubts about the competence of most mask wearers.

Though personally I err on the side of caution, in case masks do provide at least a little protection...???

However, I believe a primary function of masks,
is as a visual social symbol that the majority of citizens take this pandemic seriously.

Unity of purpose, solidarity, the preparedness to act responsibly
in the face of potential mass death.

I wear a mask as a two fingers up protest to all the arsehole far right covid deniers ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:41 PM

I'm a biologist, Dave. Microbiology and pathology were big bits of my course. It's hard to argue against the precautionary principle and you'll never find me trying that. That's why I respect the mask-wearing sentiment. But it simply isn't for me. This disease kills around one percent or less of its victims. With the vaccines, far less than that. And those stats ignore the fact that millions of people get the virus and don't know they have it (around one in three). And they also ignore the fact that millions of people get it mildly and either don't know it's covid-19 or simply refrain from reporting it. If I suspected that I had it, though mildly, I would not report it. I ditched that bloody stupid app six months ago. I'm simply not having some government agency telling me what I can or can't do. I would stay at home until I was better. My decision, absolutely as it should be. About five winters ago, flu killed 30,000 people in the UK in just a few short months. No-one told anyone to stay home, limit your contact with loved ones or wear a mask. And it passed.

You really do have to see through this. This Tory government has deliberately run down the NHS over ten years. They are terrified that a surge in cases will overrun the health service. That would be politically fatal for them. Be assured that your life and well-being are not their concern. You are made to wear a mask to switch the onus on to the public. If things go pear-shaped this winter they will blame people like me for fighting mask-wearing. I've had both jabs, my booster and my flu jab. But it will still be my fault. You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:46 PM

By the way, Dave, as a chap with a scientific background, the very last thing I'm interested in is "proving" anything. That ain't how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 03:25 AM

As a troubleshooter I did have to prove what was wrong! Mind you, computers are not as complicated as people. I still apply the principle of "what has changed?" to things that go wrong though. It usually works :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:12 AM

and now we have a co incidence omicron appears just before christmas. dave the gnome   aka The Lone Ranger.
beware of small men examples, napoleon, nobby stiles

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:50 AM

Charlie Chaplin he was small but he was funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 05:02 AM

"I wear a mask as a two fingers up protest to all the arsehole far right covid deniers ..."

Let's not forget the far from right covid deniers.

++

"Cue the banning of Christmas"

Not this old chestnut again. I am sure we still had a 25th December last year. Of course I am not sure what the latest chestnut situation is at the moment. I imagine that some journalists will be raising that question with a member of the government in the next few days.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 06:26 AM

Well Christmas was completely ruined for my family last year via an almost-last-minute Johnson edict, thanks, after earlier promises that that wasn't going to happen. My son and daughter-in-law, along with our one and only grandchild, live 250 miles away and we see them, at most, about three times a year. We had to spend a fortune posting him his presents and we had a mountain of food that we didn't need. Not to speak of the bitter disappointment of it all. Sure, we had a Dec 25, and, never fear, the sun will rise tomorrow. But what we didn't have was Christmas.

It would be constructive if we could all hang on to (what are to me, anyway) the clear distinctions between covid-19 deniers, mask rebels, conspiracy theorists (I'm none of those) and those of us who argue the case for the ditching of restrictions on our normal lives imposed by a government who don't give a flying shite about our health and safety but who are far more concerned about the political damage it will do to them should the NHS which they have so criminally depleted be overwhelmed. Know thine enemy. It's in the shape of a fat, blond buffoon and his two stooges, Whitty The Miserable who always looks as if he'd far rather be somewhere else, and Vallance, who is the biggest idiot in town.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:05 AM

On another topic!

The Evening Standard has reported that the SNP are using the Parliamentary timeslot allocated to them to put forward a motion of censure against Johnson Tuesday. It is very unlikely to win, even with all the disquiet amongst the Conservatives.

However in the past, Labour have said they have a policy of not voting for motions put forward by other parties. If they abstain on this, there is no way the Conservatives could possibly lose and it will look very bad indeed for Labour. As a result, I hope Labour do feel able to vote with the SNP on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:15 AM

nobody has banned christmas, but i think it isremarkable that a new variant surfaces shortly before christmas, the vaccines are clearly not as good as they were cracked up to be, we might need more and the pharma companies profits will increase

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:23 AM

If you make the (possibly invalid) assumption that new variants are uniformly distributed across the year then a new one appearing roughly 1/6 of the year is not surprising. Especially as we have had others at 'unremarkable' dates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 09:45 AM

bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 12:14 PM

If that is directed at me, Sandman, I would point out the virus was first discovered in South Africa and is now being detected in many places throughout the world. It appearance now is not due to the UK Government interests. We are simply not influential enough to make the rest of the world behave in the way they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 12:21 PM

"nobody has banned christmas..."

Not yet, but he effectively banned it last year, cutting it to a single day with extra restrictions, and it hit families like mine, with loved ones scattered all over the country, especially hard. It was arbitrary, cruel, unnecessary and ultimately useless. I can scarcely believe that I'm living in a supposedly democratic country in which a dangerous buffoon can tell people that they can't mix with their own families and that we must cover half our faces, the main attribute that most conveys our humanity to the world. As he's done it before and got away with it, he'll do it again. He thinks he can do what he likes, whether it's illegally proroguing Parliament, lying in his teeth during the brexit campaign, leaving his mask off in a bloody hospital or announcing stuff on Twitter before telling Parliament. And don't get me started on his support for Priti Patel, a thick, smirking bully who should have been sacked forever after her illicit dealings as a government minister in Israel, and greasy Grant Shapps, and ....and...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 01:03 PM

The Independant
Sturgeon (Scotland) and Drakeford (Wales) demand the Prime Minister fall in line with their requirements for dealing with the Omicron variant.
These are the two who have spent the last 20 months insisting that they are entitled to take actions on Covid which diverge from the 'English' actions.
Hypocritical or what?

And just to make my view clear, I think there should be one, central, plan for the whole of the UK. If there are 'hot-spots' then there would be justification for treating them differently, but not as three separate nations (four if you include Northern Ireland)
Last month I went up to Birmingham by train (they've got a great pinball bar). I had to wear a mask on the train, until I reached England!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

hypocritical

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 02:12 PM

priti patel is indeed a smirking bully, i am not sure if she is thick, yes boris is a buffoon

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 03:17 PM

Nigel, I too would like to see a plan for the whole nation. It would go as follows:

Have a big campaign in all the media to give everyone honest information and advice. Get the stuff up on billboards everywhere, as we did, successfully, with Aids. The advice would revolve around our always being cautious, and around being kind and considerate to each other. To keep our distance. To get fresh air into our buildings. To wear masks if that makes us feel better, on the understanding that improper use of masks (currently routine) is worse than useless. Make masks free. Allow shopkeepers to make their own rules about masks. Encourage everyone to avoid crowds and crowded places and to consider doing the supermarket shopping at quiet times. Get everyone to obtain a free supply of lateral flow test kits. Encourage everyone who doesn't feel well to stay at home and test themselves. Strongly encourage everyone to get vaccinated then boostered. Counter all the conspiracy theories with careful and measured truthful information. Take them on, head-on, big time. No scaremongering and absolutely no compulsion.

I would love to see Facebook disappear. It won't happen, but I certainly wouldn't vote against it. So much damage has been done by social media, but so many people who can't seem to live without it would rather divert the blame on to people who make measured arguments which challenge what our incompetent governments are doing. If that sounds like me being defensive, too bloody right I am. Shoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:01 PM

Measured arguments haven't saved anyone yet, at least not yours.
I thank the knowledge and actions of never so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:03 PM

Methinks thou dost protest too much...

I reckon it will not be too long until you set up your own facebook page on Man's Best Friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:57 PM

Then tell me precisely how I protest too much. Making measured arguments that challenge the received wisdoms of the time may not be a pitch for popularity but they're a damn sight better, and certainly harder won, than your facile cheap shots. As for you, Donuel, as ever, you demonstrate that you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. As they say, and I could be misquoting, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it. Incidentally, It's been more than implied several times that I don't know what I'm talking about when I visit the likes of the Trump thread and other Yankee threads on diets and vaccines, etc. Thing is, we sullen Brits are allowed one thread. You have multiple threads available to you in your neck of the woods in which you can pontificate to your heart's content in your obscurantist and over-clever style about matters to do with the pandemic, diets, Trump and the rest. My polite advice to you is that you should stay in your Merkin-inspired threads on these topics. My impolite advice can wait for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 06:00 PM

And this is not a protest, just a question:

Tomorrow evening, I may want to go to Morrisons, maybe around 7.30, to buy a pint of milk, a box of Maltesers and a bottle the excellent Negroamaro (actually, 25% off three...). I'll be in and out in ten minutes, there'll be hardly anyone else in the shop, but I'll have to wear a mask. I can then roll up to my favourite pub in Bude, a popular spot, and stay in there, up close and personal with all and sundry, no masks needed and no masks in sight, for the next four hours (no drink-driving will occur, I promise...)

So the question is,

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 02:50 AM

Huh, indeed. I quite agree that makes no logical sense. Personally, I would say masks should be required in pubs and restaurants except when you are not sat eating and drinking, which largely means when going to the bar to order.

But the problem is that dealing with things like infection control has never primarily been a matter of logic. That is not a criticism of the approach (though I have many!) It is that prevent the spread of infections is inherently a problem that does not lead to simple logical solutions.

Take the old rules on meeting up in groups. We went for six, but there was no great rationale why it should not be 5 or 7. How children fit into this varied between England and Scotland. Why people who are 12-plus-a-month should be considered entirely differently to 12-minus-a-month is not really logical. Moreover, even if you meet you meet in a group how you interact matters rather more than the number.

So we are not in the realm of what makes logical sense. We are working with a combination of what can be justified statistically, modified by what we can achieve pragmatically. We also have to add a psychological state to that: people doing chores like shopping may well accept restrictions more readily than those out enjoying themselves in a pub, or trying to chat up a potential partner.

To that we have to add that while it may be possible to solve a problem logically given all the information, the situation is quite different when much of the information is unknown or uncertain.

So, yes, very much 'Huh?' But realistically any solution will be rather a mess. You cannot take something which is essentially a smooth continuum of risk and add a legal line which says everything to the left is ok and everything to the right not ok without creating apparent absurdities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 04:31 AM

Your thoughtful and measured response is much appreciated. Cheers for that.

A big problem, in the context of our approaching year three of intermittent lockdowns and restrictions, is that large numbers of people, how should I put this, are getting bloody fed up of being told what to do by a government that is looking increasingly incompetent. Perceptions of the apparent absurdities we're talking about won't generally be subjected by most people to the kind of careful consideration that you exemplify in your post. The apparent superficiality of my supermarket/pub example is likely to be the far more typical response. The population has, so far, been very compliant in general. A government that continues to rely on that, in the face of what look like heavy-handed edicts, could be taking a risk. I still think that education, information and persuasion are the pragmatic way forward (this virus isn't going away: it isn't like an outbreak of food poisoning or typhoid or even winter flu. We can't be telling people to wear masks for year after year...). Never compulsion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 05:42 AM

You are completely correct there, I fear.

Here is a clipping from a report of the "Today" programme:

Responsibility to wear masks put back on British public
Last bit from health minister Gillian Keegan now, who said this morning mask-wearing will be down to “the good sense of British people”.

Asked how new rules around wearing face coverings on public transport will be enforced, Ms Keegan told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “Well, largely due to the good sense of British people who will hopefully listen to the rules, try to protect each other, and do what the right thing is.

“That’s largely how it’s always been. That’s pretty much what it’s always been, but the police do have powers to enforce.”

So if people choose not to follow the rules, the chances are little will be done (after perhaps a few days of police checking)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 06:27 AM

I've been arguing right from the outset that appealing to the best instincts of the public, via information and persuasion (and an appeal for us all to be kind and considerate to each other) would be far more effective than edicts. The longer this goes on (which could mean for our lifetimes), the more that would hold true. So what are we waiting for?

I think that a wise government would fear a major backlash if it were considering draconian measures at Christmas similar to last year's. Spot the oxymoron in that sentence...

On a separate point, I think that forcing, or even "strongly persuading," schoolchildren to wear masks in school is an absolutely disgusting and inhuman notion. Utterly out of order, whatever else we may think about masks, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 07:56 AM

DMcG: Huh, indeed. I quite agree that makes no logical sense. Personally, I would say masks should be required in pubs and restaurants except when you are not sat eating and drinking, which largely means when going to the bar to order.

I believe a rogue 'not' has crept in there making your comment the reverse of what you intended.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 07:58 AM

Just an observation I made this morning. At our local gym there are signs that ask people to wear masks while moving about but to remove them when exercising. Now that really is pointless. Luckily everyone, bar none that I have seen, do clean down the machines and use hand sanitiser between each use. There is also a remote temperature reader that anyone can use to check their own temperature before entry. Not ideal but a reasonable measure I would have thought. And before anyone asks, I do a lateral flow test at least 3 times a week.

Of course things could have been a lot worse. We could have had a communist, antisemitic terrorist in charge... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 08:01 AM

Steve:
and I could be misquoting, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.

Unfortunately that appears to be one of those aphorisms which occurs in two conflicting forms, like 'look before you leap'/'he who hesitates is lost' or 'many hands make light work'/'too many cooks spoil the broth')
I recall it as: "Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt".
The converse is: "Better to speak up and be thought a fool today than to remain in ignorance for life" (or some such)

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 08:19 AM

Relying on good sense and logical thinking sounds noble and respondsible but we are dealing with a quantum universe and the diverse behaviors of people. It is the best we can do to course correct all along the way to an improved response similar to trial and error. You guys can grasp the scale of a virus but most people don't. It doesn't seem logical a mask is protective. There are answers beyond what seems logical to an encapsulated mind. MAYBE a viral load is made small enough to be destroyed by a macrophage - the point is there is demonstrable evidence of mask efficasiousness.

Reasoned rational minds do see through the smoke of lies but that hasn't changed the dynamic of big lies despite all the logic and insight we throw at it. All the politcal science expertise has still fallen short of the invasive phenomenon of which I have some expertise. example

Logic is neither good or bad its just an incomplete answer.
A linear mind will find this hard to swallow.
MEANWHILE "I alone can fix it" types abound.









efficasiousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 09:54 AM

OK, Nigel, I was lazy enough to try the aphorism without checking the right wording, but I got quite close!

As I've repeatedly said in another thread, Donuel (which you'd be wise to confine yourself to, in my humble opinion), the mask evidence you refer to is purely observational. Not only is that potentially far weaker than experimental evidence (which in this case we can't have for ethical and practical reasons), it is also extremely vulnerable to confounding factors. You accuse others of linear thinking. What I've just said is the polar opposite of that. In fact, evangelical mask advocacy such as yours, in the absence of reliable evidence, is a great example of the linear thinking that you so ironically accuse others of resorting to.

I said evangelical mask advocacy (the sort of thing that has mask sceptics being accused of being Nazis or of killing people, etc. - we've seen it all, haven't we, Donuel?), not just mask advocacy. As I've said 'til I'm blue in the face, the precautionary principle is a perfectly respectable position on which to predicate your attempts to persuade people to wear masks. But, in my view, you don't start imposing arbitrary laws on people unless you are certain beyond reasonable doubt of your position, and when it comes to masks that is not possible. Remember, we still live in democracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 05:05 AM

Ah, those mixed messages all over again. So who do we pay heed to then? "Cut down the social mixing" Jenny Harries (established nincompoop #1), or "Party on!" Boris Johnson (established nincompoop #2)?

Sadge is in a mess, Whitty wants to anywhere other than next to Bozo, Vallance is Eric Morecambe without the fun and we have Van Tam the circus clown who gets himself knotted up in obscure football analogies.

Are we doomed or should we just carry on and ignore the bloody lot of 'em? Answers on a postcard please...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 08:38 AM

I see it has come out that while Bozo told us all we could not mix with our families last Christmas he was partying with his mates. How long before he has enough rope? Trouble is, those waiting in the wings are probably more effective at shafting the rest of us without anyone noticing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 01:18 PM

Laura Kuenessberg has tweeted:

After @PippaCrerar and @danbloom1 scoop this morning, we're told by an attendee of drinks in No 10 on Dec 18th that there were 'several dozen' people there, with food, drink and games which went on past midnight... https://t.co/42taDI3SKu - No 10's said all rules were followed

=====
It will be interesting to see what the BBC do with that this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 02:17 PM

Sinister or what? Read this in today's Guardian:

"Jailed for 51 weeks for protesting? Britain is becoming a police state by stealth" (George Monbiot)

Yet another example of this government's sense of entitlement to sidestep democracy and do whatever they like. And of its increasingly authoritarian nature, trampling on our rights...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 05:01 PM

As you may know, the SNP held a debate yesterday to censure Johnson for lying.

The link in Hansard Online has not been available each time I have looked for it, which is the only article in the official Parliamentary record that has ever been like that for me.

You may have more luck....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 05:23 PM

Is this it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 05:35 PM

Typical. I have been trying on and off all day, and checked again a few minutes before my.post!

Thanks for looking

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Dec 21 - 08:43 PM

In this present age of persistent bad news doom and gloom,
at least there's an occasional good news headline to raise our spirits
for a few precious moments rest from despair...

Margaret Hodge to stand down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 01:44 AM

she was a right old hodgepodge

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 03:01 AM

Interesting and quite disturbing result from Bexley. The Tory lead has been slashed by 14%, but the benefactors have roughly 7% to each of Labour and Reform UK. The LibDems, although present, did not campaign hard, so it is quite likely much of their vote went to Labour. Reform UK, of course, played one of their biggest hitters, but even so this suggests to me that the Tories are most threatened by those further right, not the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:04 PM

So, basically, it was a win for the Conservative party with over 50% of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:25 PM

it's horrible to think of a tory party party at christmas at the best of times. when they are doing it while telling everyone else to stop in and stay safe - again - is just taking the piss. if only there was a deadly virus that would be spread among these base creatures who socialise in this way. if only there was a way that the rest of us could stay safe from them and the virus....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:31 PM

it's horrible to think of a tory party party at christmas at the best of times. when they are doing it while telling everyone else to stop in and stay safe - again - is just taking the piss. if only there was a deadly virus that would be spread among these base creatures who socialise in this way. if only there was a way that the rest of us could stay safe from them and the virus....

In English?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:47 PM

Sorry, it may help a bit if you cut some capital letters out of paper and stick them on your screen. Just the letters after the full stops, mind you. My lazy use of wee letters in inappropriate places is a lazy habit i should really try to stop, fully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:49 PM

I skimmed through it the once, Nigel, and it was perfectly clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:51 PM

On other matters - does anyone think that it is selfish, cynical and hypocritical - again - for the tories to carry on the way they are doing lately? They really don't care about anyone else do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 03:32 PM

I agree with you, Pete. Sadly, they are so good at conning people there are many who believe that they are preferable to an honest left wing leader or to staying in a secure and stable economic union. I really don't blame those who were conned. They were victims. There are those however who now know what the Tories are like yet still try to justify what they do. Human nature just doesn't like to admit making mistakes I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 04:18 PM

I met some guy in an Ilkley pub a couple of nights ago - him and his business partner were just back from downing street to get an award for something. He was a jolly (quite pissed) bloke , thought boris johnson (and trump, and farage -and Liverpool weirdly - were great (that was all we agreed on) I didn't get the sense that he was political really - he just liked his life and wasn't bothered about much else. Though he did think he was insulting us by calling us lefties from Lancashire. My sister and I took the piss for the rest of our pint before we got away. I thought it was interesting - i'd guess the bulk of tory support are something like this guy - but I was glad to escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 04:38 PM

I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 06:54 PM

Well I think that Johnson has tapped into Trumpism. What I mean by that is that he saw Trump being outrageous, lying, being stupid, inefficient and downright disreputable...yet retaining, in full, his popularity. In other words, do what you like, get accused of what you like and emerge unscathed. I'd bet he sees Trump as the ideal candidate in 2024. Well that's the thing you can copy. Right down to the unkempt, overweight, ill-fitting-suit appearance and haystack hair. Boris thinks that the man in the street will chime with all this. The man in the street has his own imperfections, and will take succour from the fact that the very top man has the same imperfections as he has. So that's all right then. Boris is a Jack the lad, and, well, I want to be Jack the lad too, just like Boris. Who cares if he has affairs, doesn't know how many kids he's got, how many times he breaks the rules, how much he lies to us. That the stuff I do too, or would like to. So leave the lad alone!

Decades ago, the French loved their leaders to be a bit dodgy outside of their political lives. Having affairs, cheating on the missus an that kind of stuff were par for the course. But in those days there were limits of decorum and morality, at least in the eyes of what the public were allowed to see. Trump and Johnson have, between them, swept away those limits. At least, they think so. We can only hope that a really big mistake will be the undoing. In the past, many of the things he's done would have counted as big mistakes. These days, they're just Jack the lad peccadillos. And that's very worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:03 AM

So, basically, it was a win for the Conservative party with over 50% of the vote.

All parties have their statements for public consumption, Nigel, and this is the Conservatives. They all try to present themselves in the best possible light.

But I was trying to get beyond that. Imagine yourself in the Conservatives Election planning meeting. What are they saying amongst themselves, that is not for public consumption? What runes can they read?

Well, they could say we got over 50% so there is nothing to be discussed. Let's all go home and meet up again after the next by election.

I don't think that is likely. These are some of the messages I think they will take from it.

* There was a lot of 'doorstep depression' with Johnson and the party, leading to a fair number of potential supporters not coming out to vote. That needs work.

* Labour, by itself, does not look strong enough to greatly damage us. Sure, some seats will probably go to them, but it does not look as if it enough to seriously inconvenience the Conservatives.

* An informal pact between LibDem and Labour is if anything more likely than before because it looks very likely a lot of LibDem voters were prepared to lend their vote to Labour. If the upcoming election shows that Labour voters are prepared to lend theirs to LibDems, we could have a substantial problem here. That informal alliance does seem to have damaged us and seats with majorities of a small number of thousands could easily fall to such a pact. Tactically, we need to discourage this in any way we can. Letting Labour think they can win on their own helps us. Equally, anything we can do to prevent a formal pact is desirable.

* The sizable vote for Reform UK is a significant threat. It could split the voters. We need to find a way to neutralize this. Reform UK has too few recognisable figures to operate well at a national level, so is very unlikely to actually gain power except in one or two seats, but it could certainly peel off a percentage of Tory voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 02:51 AM

I will be in Ilkley tonight, Pete! But not in a pub though so will not, hopefully, meet the same man :-) We really must meet up one day.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 05:07 AM

Last time I was in that pub, a chap was flogging cheap and nasty plastic toys, not for the first time either. I thought to meself, Ilkley? More bar tat...?

I'll get me mac...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 05:42 AM

I was just visiting my sister in Ilkley in a pub that used to be the Something to do with Ducks - good wee boozer til we met tory boy. we then moved on to the Something and Ham which looked like a bistro/wine with pricey beer (mary jane) but was more pleasant in the political ambience sense - which says a lot about modern politics i suppose.

i agree with your last post (!) steve - except would the french ever tolerate a real fascist clown as a serious politician? The day when that happens, or the Scots vote for the tories again - we'll know nous sommes truly dans le merde. or shite. sans a feckin paddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 06:21 AM

Careful with the Franglais now, Pete - you'll have Nigel in a lather again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 07:23 AM

There was a pub in Ilkely called Bar Tat! Dunno if it's still there though

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:37 PM

bar tat still there - but was a bit busy for me, sister and Rosa the lurcher on wednesday. i've been there a few times though and do like it - un autre temps, peut -etre

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 03:54 AM

Maddy Prior and The Carnival Band were as brilliant as ever at the King's Hall and Winter Gardens in Ilkley. Such a good venue too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 04:44 AM

Maddy Prior is a good singer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 09:07 AM

Good article for you here, Pete.

Why does England vote Tory?

I think it may answer your earlier question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 03:23 AM

Makes you wonder if the author of that article has ever asked a tory voter why they decided to vote that way. Trident? Really?

Channel 4 had a two part series which covers some of the issues raised in that article.

Empire State of Mind


Writer Sathnam Sanghera travels across the country exploring the effects of the British Empire on modern Britain

Worth a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 03:42 AM

Yes,Trident really, Rain Dog. Did you follow the link to the poll results where Trident was mentioned and look at the demographics of who supported the nuclear program and how they voted?

The documentary you link looks interesting so thanks for that but we have visitors for the next few days so it will have to wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 05:41 AM

For all the shite talk coming from Priti Patel about trying to stop people entering the UK on small boats, she has not yet started copying the inhumane policies of the EU, policies that result in loss of lives.

The following article by Kenan Malik appeared in The Observer newspaper on the 14.11.21

Instruments to pursue a cruel policy

"A company of men in dark uniforms and balaclavas, all carrying clubs. They are battering a group of people, repeatedly clubbing them on their arms, legs and backs. They push them into a river that marks the boundary of the European Union. “Go,” they yell. “Go.”

It’s not an incident on the border between Belarus and Poland, the latest migrant flashpoint on the EU border, and one now dominating the news. It happened 1,000 miles to the south, between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it’s been happening for months, but with much less publicity or scrutiny than that afforded the events in Belarus.

The uniforms worn by the men in black on the Croatia-Bosnia border carried no insignias. An investigation by a consortium of European newspapers, broadcasters and NGOs has exposed them as members of special Croatian and Greek police units. Their job? To use violence to force undocumented migrants out of the EU and into non-EU states.

The operations are deemed “pushbacks”, a euphemism for illegal, violent expulsion. They happen all along the EU’s south-east border. Not just on land but at sea, too. Men from elite units in the Greek coastguard, again all dressed in black, wearing balaclavas and with no identity markings, regularly seize migrants, put them on orange life rafts, provided by the EU, push them out to sea towards Turkey and leave them to their fate."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 05:58 AM

And from The Guardian today

Fortress Europe

"From  military-grade drones to sensor systems and experimental technology, the EU and its members have spent hundreds of millions of euros over the past decade on technologies to track down and keep at bay the refugees on its borders.

Poland’s border with Belarus is becoming the latest frontline for this technology, with the country approving last month a €350m (£300m) wall with advanced cameras and motion sensors.

The Guardian has mapped out the result of the EU’s investment: a digital wall on the harsh sea, forest and mountain frontiers, and a technological playground for military and tech companies repurposing products for new markets."


I have to say that I had not heard of Frontex before.

Frontex

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 21 - 07:48 PM

Dave the Gnome thank you. I have asked this question before without satisfaction. It works for me.

The most important question in British electoral politics is almost never asked. Why does England usually vote Tory?????????

If you look at opinion polls on policy, most people in England are almost as left wing as most in Scotland and Wales. Most want to renationalise public services, redistribute wealth and increase spending on public services.

Likewise, on most issues, people in England are nearly as socially liberal as people in Scotland, supporting women’s right to choose an abortion and LGBTQI rights, for example. Even in supposedly conservative Northern Ireland, polls show widespread support for women’s and LGBTQI rights.

There are often said to be different attitudes to immigration, but that’s not particularly borne out in the data: the perceived divergence is better explained by the refusal of most of Scotland’s political class to partake in migrant bashing than by differences of attitude among the respective populations, and England isn’t as hostile to migrants as the tabloids would have you believe.

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This shouldn’t be surprising: across the Western world, most people are broadly socially liberal social democrats.

Which takes us back to our question. While people in Scotland and Wales tend to vote for parties which broadly reflect their policy preferences, why do people in England and Northern Ireland consistently vote for parties which don’t? Why do so many English people vote Tory despite disagreeing with the Tories on most major issues of the day, any given day?

Interestingly, this isn’t a new phenomenon. The modern Conservative Party was founded by Robert Peel in 1834. Since then, most of those who’ve had the vote in England have generally voted for it, while most of those who have had the vote in Scotland and Wales have usually voted for their various rivals du jour.

It is, though, an unusual phenomenon. With its dominance of English politics over nearly two hundred years, the Conservatives are often described as the most successful political party in the world.

If we want to understand this strange habit that English people have of voting for politicians with whom they largely disagree, it’s worth looking in more depth at English social attitudes, and particularly at the few areas where they do diverge from Scotland.

The most obvious and widely reported of these is the EU. As Anthony Barnett warned before the referendum, Brexit was driven by England, and can only really be understood as an English cry for help.

Screenshot 2020-06-21 at 10.30.54.png
Similarly, Trident nuclear weapons show a statistically significant difference in opinion.

Perhaps more significant, though, are two other differences. The first is that English voters overwhelmingly think that the empire was a good thing, while Scottish voters narrowly think it was bad. The second is that there is significantly less support for the monarchy in Scotland – 53% vs 69% for Britain as a whole, according to one recent poll.

Organised enthusiasm for the Windsors is also much weaker in Scotland. During the 2012 Queen’s Jubilee, there were 9,500 street parties in England and Wales, but only 60 in Scotland, mostly organised by the Orange Order.

If we want to understand why England votes Tory, this basket of issues seems to point to the answer. Each of them has in common that they are an icon of Anglo-British nationalism. And the Conservatives are seen as the party of Anglo-British nationalism.

Labour has always wanted to be seen as Anglo-British as well, and played a key role in creating a ‘British nation’ after Empire, as David Edgerton recently explained in his ‘Rise and Fall of the British Nation’.

But as long as the idea of Britishness is tied to the monarch – and therefore the class system – and Empire – and therefore racism – the Tories were always going to win the struggle to represent it.

The deep desire to make Britain ‘Great again’ which drives this nationalism takes form in a whole collection of policies: Brexit and the desire to return to imperial glories is the most obvious. Trident, the bling Britain got for ‘giving up’ up India, is the most extraordinary: it is being renewed at vast expense despite being technologically redundant, only because of an obsession with clinging white-knuckled to the past.

But the double helix in the DNA of these issues is sentimentality about the empire, and support for the monarchy, especially as the House of Windsor completed its transition to TV and tabloid monarchy.

It’s this feeling that makes England Conservative (even if not generally conservative): the Tories are the party of Anglo-British nationalism and Empire, the party of the ruling class. And the underlying message in much of Anglo-British nationalism is that posh people – and the monarchy first of all – ought to be in charge. That is, after all, who ran things when Britain was ‘great’.

This is why David Cameron and Boris Johnson were considered ‘prime ministerial’ while John Major, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband weren’t. It’s why the tabloids attacked Corbyn not for his economic or social policies, but for his supposed failure to genuflect sufficiently to the Queen and his unwillingness to commit to the mass slaughter of nuclear war.

In the 2019 election, Corbyn came unstuck on two issues whose dominance can only really be understood when we think about the character of Anglo-British nationalism.

With Brexit, this is perhaps obvious. With antisemitism, less so. But it’s worth reflecting that no other form of racism has so dominated an election campaign in the past, despite numerous heinously racist campaigns; a phenomenon which makes sense when we think about the fact that Anglo-British nationalism was born-again in WW2, redeemed from past crimes through the UK’s role in defeating Hitler and ending the Holocaust.

We need to talk about Churchill
What’s fascinating about all of this isn’t that it’s true. After all, nationalism is as much the dominant political ideology of our age as capitalism is the dominant economic system. We live in a world of nation states, to which billions of people feel loyal. What’s interesting is that ‘the British’ never talk about it.

In Scotland, there are endless Twitter barnies about the character and defining features of Scottish nationalism. In France, the idea of Frenchness is regularly dissected. In Germany, it is a deep matter of concern.

But most of the conversations about British electoral politics are a sophisticated attempt not to discuss the character of the defining force which shapes it: Anglo-British nationalism.

Over the last half decade, this has begun to change. The Scottish independence referendum forced Englishness and Britishness to mumble their own names. The Brexit referendum helped some of England’s liberals to better understand the country they live in. The decline of Anglo-Britain has meant that Anglo-Britishness has started to become visible, no longer such an overwhelming force that it blends into the background.

And in the past couple of weeks, it’s taken another few steps towards the spotlight. As well as being a flash of artistic genius and magnificent act of liberation, the toppling of the Colston statue unleashed a vast process of pedagogy.

By shifting the focus of British audiences watching Black Lives Matter protests from America-watching to self introspection, it jolted millions of people into an unprecedented process of teaching and learning.

Reni Eddo-Lodge’s brilliant history of recent British race politics – Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race – became (astonishingly) the first book by a Black British author to top the best-seller charts, with the next four slots also filled by Black authors’ books about race in Britain, representing the front carriages in a long pedagogical train sweeping the country.

Of course this process is politically polarised. I lurk in community Facebook groups across the country, and I’ve rarely seen them all ignite at the same moment with the same ferocious fight as in the last fortnight. But the opposite of being controversial is being ignored, and once the thesis and antithesis are thrashed out, a new uneasy synthesis will emerge, England will have a better understanding of itself. And politically, that’s a good thing.

I write all of this because last week, I published an excellent essay on openDemocracy by the always fascinating academic Kalpana Wilson, which I gave the provocative title ‘Churchill must Fall’, though it covers much more ground than the one man.

When I tweeted it, a number of progressives, including Observer columnist Nick Cohen and the brilliant anti-austerity economist Simon Wren Lewis, responded to the effect that this was falling into a trap. The right is desperate to turn an awkward conversation about race, racism and Empire into a flame war over Churchill.

The short response is that it’s not my job as a journalist to do what’s useful to the electoral prospects of the Labour Party. But setting that aside, I think this is a mistake.

Churchill is the founding father of modern Anglo-Britain. His radio broadcasts over the course of World War Two shifted from addressing an imperial ‘we’ to an archipelagic ‘we’, reinventing Britishness as located not across millions of square miles of colony, but in these North Atlantic islands.

His personal story is the story of modern British nationalism – the gassing of Kurds, the starving of Bengalis, the Mau Mau concentration camps; and the defeating of European fascism, the post-war rebuilding, the famous qualified defence of democracy.

While Thatcher is recent enough that the battles about her time in office are well remembered, Churchill – equally controversial in his era – has been turned into the guard dog of Anglo-British nationalism, the hero in the mythical national story.

While the pandemic may finally move Britain on from Thatcherism, steps taken away from what Anthony Barnett has called Churchillism are just as big a prize. And that’s impossible without addressing the man himself, for his myth is the national myth, the memory of him is the false memory of ourselves.

Flame wars are inevitable
There is no non-controversial way to do this. Milan Kundera said that “the struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”, and in the age of social media and rolling news, that struggle is always going to include a flame war.

For decades, England’s centre-left has avoided this conversation. And over decades, the right has always summoned it in time for a potentially close election: 1983 and the flag-waving of the Falklands War, 1992 and the Gulf War, 2010 and Gordon Brown being too Scottish, 2015 and Ed Miliband being too willing to listen to Scottish people, 2019 and Brexit. This is the grip that the papers have on England, the cross-series plot which keeps the nation in thrall and in line.

The good news is that now is the perfect moment to pull at this thread. The UK is probably half a decade from its next general election. A global movement is ensuring that at the core of the conversation is a cry so reasonable that no one can deny it and still claim to be a good person, but so radical that it demands transformation of our entire political and economic system: the statement that Black Lives Matter. Most people have progressive instincts, and facing the truth about the imperial past, believe it to be foul. And, for the first time in centuries, most British people alive today were born after the fall of the Empire.

There can be no better time than this for a long overdue process of national learning about England, Britain and Empire. There is no other way to do this than through the polarised process of online argument and this means there is no way to avoid the subject of Churchill. It may be awkward but it is also deeply rewarding: whether or not you agree that Churchill must fall, we must surely agree that we have to end the silence about what he really stood for.

The alternative is accepting the dominance of an Anglo-British nationalism which will always lead people to vote Tory. And that’s the real trap

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 02:31 AM

ha ha.
it is the electoral system, look at the last general election more people voted for all the other parties than they did for the conservative party, conservatives had 13966 in fact the liberals and labour party total share of the vote was 13965 all other parties snp green dup sinn fein brexit etc 3068, more people voted for other parties than the conservatives ,the tories had a minoriry share of the vote
How many votes cast per seat won?

The disproportionality between votes and seats can also be calculated in terms of votes-per-seat-won. In 2019 the Conservatives got one seat for every 38,264 votes, while Labour got one seat for every 50,837 votes. It took many more votes to elect a Lib Dem (336,038) and Green MP (866,435), but far fewer to elect an SNP MP (25,883)
why do you repeat inaccurate facts.the conservatives did not have a majrity share of the overall vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 03:06 AM

Indeed our voting system has a lot to answer for. No government since the 2nd World War has had a majority of the votes cast, despite sometimes having a large majority of the seats.

Labour in 1997 with 179 seat majority on 43.2% share of votes cast.
In 2001 167 seat majority on 40.7% share of votes cast. The two largest majority governments on seats since the war.

Is the present system the best for the country? Probably not.

Is the present system the best for the two main parties? They seem to think so.

I don't expect things to change anytime soon, apart from the party in power of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 06:04 AM

The idea though that since the 1830s most people in Scotland have voted for the opponents of the Tories isn’t actually correct! For long periods it was basically a two way slog. It isn’t even actually correct to talk about it as the ‘Conservative Party’ in Scotland prior to the 1960s as it was actually several parties working together with the main partner being the Unionist Party! To keep things simple though we’ll call these parties the Tories.

Just going back to the 30s and 40s and Scotland was by then pretty evenly balanced between Labour and Tory voters. Throughout the 1950s the Tories tended to gain slightly more votes than Labour and in 1955 they even had a slight majority of total votes cast! Even more than the 50% of total votes the SNP managed in 2015.

Labour started to push consistently and clearly ahead from the 1960s but it wasn’t until the 1970s that the Tory vote started to go down to the low 30%s late 20%s.   

The Tory vote only went through the floor to well below 20% from 1997 onwards after a decade and more of Thatcherism. At least a part of that was down to their hardened opposition to devolution.

If someone is starting from a viewpoint that Scotland has always been anti-Tory though then it is a wrong starting point. It is kind of hard even to compare now as of course we now have three main parties plus the Lib Dems and Greens so voting patterns are not really there for a straight country to country comparison between Scotland and England. Plus there are different issues affecting things with the most obvious being the independence question. Plus on devolved elections we have a completely different voting system. At Westminster elections for Scottish constituency seats the SNP (as Labour did from the 1970s until quite recently) gain far more seats than their vote warrants. The difference being though that they support a change to the UK voting system – whereas Labour were happy to have a huge majority of Scottish seats on a minority of the vote.

People do though often suppose current trends mean it has always been so! You get the same with my constituency here in the Borders. Other Scots will say “oh you lot always vote Tory” when in fact the current Tory MP is the first Tory MP I have known here. Prior to John Lamont and since David Steel won the constituency in the mid 60s it was always Lib Dem apart from one SNP win – yet folk insist it has always been Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 01:26 PM

Watching Bozo blustering on the telly again and wondering why he has not yet been hanged. Surely he has had enough rope now. He is defending the daft bugger that resigned, blubbering publicly, because she got caught. It really is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 04:21 PM

Since March 2020. I've kept every rule. Not one single breach. I've been called a mask rebel, an anti-masker and have been accused (by a moderator!) of being in bed with anti-vaxxers. I've had all three jabs and my flu jab and I haven't broken a single rule, not once. My Christmas was ruined last year by a last-minute edict from a man who, at that very time, was attending and sanctioning illegal parties on his watch, on his patch. Millions of people were affected worse than I was, to boot. And now he's lying in his teeth about all that, and his erstwhile press secretary was laughing at us.

Well I feel so great about that. Really good. I love a man who does Machiavellian better than Machiavelli himself.

John Crace on the Guardian website today is a spiffing good read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 21 - 05:02 AM

Have just sent this message to my son, who has to work from home all over again:

"Don't forget, you and your workmates must stay at home and do it all on Zoom in order to protect each other. But don't worry: when work has finished you can go and get pissed with them for six hours in a crowded, sweaty pub, no masks, no distancing, and don't forget to shut all the pub windows because baby it's cold outside!"

But no fret. Sadge told us this morning that the new measures are "balanced and proportionate." All good then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 21 - 10:44 AM

Now Gisela Stuart gets a nice little earner deciding whether senior servants are "one of us."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 03:29 AM

how about investing money in building a few new hospitals, designed for dealing with viruses

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:07 AM

So he's in a room doing a quiz with people less than two metres away, one of whom is wrapped in tinsel and another who's wearing a Father Christmas hat. Absolutely against the Tier Two law of the time, but one of his lackeys sez that it's OK because he was there "only briefly" (he didn't say how long the other revellers were there for...) and that they weren't seen to be drinking. The backlash from his cronies and blind-as-a-bat vox-poppers is that the press and the BBC need to "stop playing politics" and get off his back. Would that be the same press that, for decades, has been instrumental in getting the Tories elected? Oh, those 'orrid fairweather friends!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 11:29 AM

I'm not saying that what he did was a good idea, but for those who claim that 'rules were broken', and so far his only defensive claim has been that 'no rules were broken' it may be worth considering what the rules were under 'Tier 2' (England):
Guardian
Or Gov.UK

The 'no mixing of households' only appears to be listed under 'meeting friends and family'
For 'work and business' it says only that "Those who can work from home should do so"
Anything else, 'keep 2 metres apart' 'wear a mask' etc. seems to come under guidance, not regulation.

I can almost imagine this running a couple more weeks and Boris then saying "Ok. what rules are we supposed to have broken?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:07 PM

That is just a simplified aide-memoire of the Tier 2 restrictions, not the legal definition of them. For the legal definition, you need to look here. (Schedule 1)

As I read them, running the virtual zoom with two other people is against the schedule.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:23 PM

Not a good look though, eh, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:30 PM

so the conservative government have relied and spent millions on vaccines but not invested in building the needed hospitals, the vaccines appear to be not as effective as we were led to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 01:12 PM

Here is one complete knobhead saying that people were only getting at Bozo because he got Brexit done. Luckily the interviewer jumped on the poor excuse for a human.

Just bitter remoaners

Apologies to Steve as it is on Faceache but worth watching anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 02:06 PM

Steve: Not a good look though, eh, Nigel?

I think I already made that clear: "I'm not saying that what he did was a good idea, but for those who claim that 'rules were broken',"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 04:54 PM

Quite, Nigel.

I hate to say this, but I thought his press conference pitch this evening was on the money...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:48 PM

Boris' pitch today:


The Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP
Good evening,

over the past year we have shown that vaccination is the key to beating Covid, and that it works.

The UK was the first country in the world to administer a vaccine,

we delivered the fastest roll-out in Europe,

and we’ve begun the fastest booster campaign too, with over half a million jabs delivered yesterday alone.

And these achievements

made possible by the extraordinary efforts of our NHS, including thousands of GPs and volunteer vaccinators -

have literally saved countless lives and livelihoods in this country.

But I need to speak to you this evening,

because I am afraid we are now facing an emergency in our battle with the new variant, Omicron,

and we must urgently reinforce our wall of vaccine protection to keep our friends and loved ones safe.

Earlier today, the UK’s four Chief Medical Officers raised the Covid Alert level to 4, its second highest level,

because of the evidence that Omicron is doubling here in the UK every two to three days.

We know from bitter experience how these exponential curves develop.

No-one should be in any doubt: there is a tidal wave of Omicron coming,

and I’m afraid it is now clear that two doses of vaccine are simply not enough to give the level of protection we all need.

But the good news is that our scientists are confident that with a third dose

– a booster dose –

we can all bring our level of protection back up.

And I know there will be some people watching who will be asking whether Omicron is less severe than previous variants,

and whether we really need to go out and get that booster.

And the answer is yes we do.

Do not make the mistake of thinking Omicron can’t hurt you; can’t make you and your loved ones seriously ill.

We’ve already seen hospitalisations doubling in a week in South Africa.

And we have patients with Omicron in hospital here in the UK right now.

At this point our scientists cannot say that Omicron is less severe,

and even if that proved to be true, we already know it is so much more transmissible,

that a wave of Omicron through a population that was not boosted

would risk a level of hospitalisation that could overwhelm our NHS

and lead sadly to very many deaths.

So we must act now.

Today we are launching the Omicron Emergency Boost,

a national mission unlike anything we have done before in the vaccination programme -

to Get Boosted Now.

A fortnight ago I said we would offer every eligible adult a booster by the end of January.

Today, in light of this Omicron Emergency, I am bringing that target forward by a whole month.

Everyone eligible aged 18 and over in England will have the chance to get their booster before the New Year.

And we have spoken today to the Devolved Administrations, to confirm the UK Government will provide additional support to accelerate vaccinations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

To hit the pace we need, we’ll need to match the NHS’s best vaccination day yet – and then beat it day after day.

This will require an extraordinary effort.

And as we focus on boosters and make this new target achievable,

it will mean some other appointments will need to be postponed until the New Year.

But if we don’t do this now, the wave of Omicron could be so big that cancellations and disruptions, like the loss of cancer appointments, would be even greater next year.

And I know the pressures on everyone in our NHS

– from our GPs, doctors and nurses to our porters –

all of whom have worked incredibly hard and we thank them for the amazing job they have done.

But I say directly to those of you on the front line,

I must ask you to make another extraordinary effort now,

so we can protect you and your colleagues – and above all your patients - from even greater pressures next year.

So from tomorrow in England, we are opening up the booster to every adult over 18 who has had a second dose of the vaccine at least three months ago.

The NHS Booking System will be open for these younger age groups from Wednesday,

and that’s the best way to guarantee your slot,

but in some places you can walk in from tomorrow.

We will also assist this emergency operation by

deploying 42 military planning teams across every region,

standing up additional vaccine sites and mobile units,

extending opening hours so clinics are open 7 days a week, with more appointments early in the morning, in the evening, and at weekends,

and training thousands more volunteer vaccinators.

And we’ll set out further steps in the days ahead.

It’s because of the threat from Omicron that I announced on Wednesday we will move to plan B in England.

You must wear a face covering in indoor public spaces.

From tomorrow, work from home if you can.

And from Wednesday, subject to a vote in parliament, you’ll need to show a negative lateral flow test to get into nightclubs and some large events if you’re not double vaccinated.

These measures will help slow the spread of Omicron.

But we must go further and get boosted now.

If you haven’t yet had a vaccine at all, then please get yourself at least some protection with a jab as quickly as possible.

If you’ve already had your booster, encourage your friends and family to do the same.

We are a great country. We have the vaccines to protect our people.

So let’s do it. Let’s Get Boosted Now.

Get Boosted Now for yourself, for your friends and your family.

Get Boosted Now to protect jobs and livelihoods across this country.

Get Boosted Now to protect our NHS, our freedoms and our way of life.

Get Boosted Now.

Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:49 PM

Has Boris got it right?
Or does anyone wish to disagree with the above?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:50 PM

I think he wants us to get boosted

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:51 PM

Dave The Gnome:
I think he wants us to get boosted

And is that the right idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 07:09 PM

Yes, it's the right idea.

However.

There's a wider context to all this.

(Not now, Stephen!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:53 AM

I hate to say this, but I thought his press conference pitch this evening was on the money...

I agree. When I first heard the thing was being pre-recorded I thought the primary reason was to avoid being questioned about the party and the rest. Well, I am sure that is at least partially true, but putting a different spin on it, it avoided the important message being lost amid a media frenzy.

There was a second effect of it though. Apart from the unkempt appearance, 'Boris' was not in evidence. Instead, we had the Prime Minister speaking is a direct way, with no burbling, or obfuscation, or obvious misdirection. It showed that Johnson can be serious when need be.

I saw no obvious edits, and of course we do not know how many attempts to record it were rejected as 'not being serious enough'. But Steve is quite right: this was what was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 03:20 AM

Because the effectiveness of vaccines fade with time, it is a curious fact that having a very fast roll out of the vaccine against 'alpha' may have made us more vulnerable to 'omicron', because we had more people with a 'faded' level of vaccination. That is why the boosters are so important, of course, but it also shows the 'the fastest roll out in the world' may not be as great as you might first think. This is not to say it was anything but a good idea, of course.

That's the trouble with biology and medicine. It is more complicated than it first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 03:23 AM

Of course it was the right idea, Nigel, it was the right message, done in the right way.

If he could do the same for all the other issues facing him he could even become a good prime minister. Getting one thing right out of the hundreds of lies hardly qualifies him as a paragon of virtue though does it?

Has anyone else noticed that vaccinations have become the new antisemitism? A couple of years ago if anyone said anything against the Tories it was "Look! Labour antisemitism!" Now if anyone mentions the crashing economy, Brexit failures, destruction of the NHS or government sleaze the only response is to change the subject to the vaccination program. It is undoubtedly good but it doesn't excuse all the other damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 04:04 AM

Apologies for calling the thing a "press conference!" Very nice of y'all not to pick me up on it.

The focus on vaccination is the right one in my opinion. We're conditioned to look for ulterior motives every time he opens his mouth, which is something he's brought on himself. Like millions of others, I suspect, I'm very glad that he has, as yet, declined to cancel Christmas. I can't help thinking that all the stuff about Tory partying has made that idea politically next to impossible for him. In the end, vaccination is overwhelmingly the most important measure for getting the virus under control, and other measures, in comparison, look like piddling around the edges.

And let's not forget that one of the main reasons that we are where we are is that the Tories have run down the NHS in a concerted way since 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 07:06 AM

It may be a glass-half-full point of view, but in a way I am quite encouraged by the government running out of lateral flow tests and the website crashing because it got overloaded. Both show that the general population is still taking this quite seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:28 PM

Well I've been ordering test kits online up to now. Every test we've done so far has been negative. As we're off to a funeral tomorrow we'll each be doing one this evening. Thing is, as I was worried about running out, I nipped into Boots an hour ago, and they gave me two packs. I didn't need a code, she didn't take my name - just handed over the kits. But the command is that we must report every result. Well if they don't know who's got the bloody kits, they can't keep tabs on that, can they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Our local pharmacy is quite strict on us using the code and will only issue kits to people with them. They don't have any of the nose only kits though :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:27 PM

Over here Boris' remarks are reduced to "expect a tidal wave of Omicron".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:27 PM

Over here Boris' remarks are reduced to "expect a tidal wave of Omicron".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 04:26 PM

I must say that I thought Keir Starmer struck the right note in his broadcast this evening. He kept the politicking down to the bare minimum and, as a result, sounded far more statesmanlike.

I really want to be wrong about my doom-laden view of his prospects in the next election. The old adage that elections are always lost by the government, never won by the opposition, is still my only hope... Boris will be thinking "This too will pass..." and, knowing his luck, he's probably right...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 04:48 PM

I was out singing in a choir, so have just listened to it now. To find it I used Google and the first thing that came up was The Express reporting fury that Labour had been given a prime broadcasting slot by the BBC to give a party political broadcast.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 05:43 PM

Meanwhile.

BBC - Call for halt to UK elections bill



"Plans to introduce voter identification risk upsetting the balance of the UK’s electoral system, making it more difficult for people to vote and removing an element of the trust inherent in the system, a cross-party group of MPs has said.

The Commons public administration and constitutional affairs committee (PACAC) is urging the government to stop the passage of the elections bill, which would introduce a requirement to show photographic ID to vote at polling stations and could give Downing Street more power over the election watchdog.

A report from the committee released on Monday said more thorough consultations were needed, particularly in regards to the voter ID requirement. It said: “There is a concern that a voter ID requirement will introduce a barrier preventing some people from exercising their vote”."

And

"The chair of the committee, William Wragg, said: “While seeking to secure UK elections from potential voter fraud is a noble cause, we remain unconvinced that the scale of the problem justifies the solutions as they have been put forward. When people can be blocked from voting because they have incorrect documentation, have misplaced it or they have none, we must make doubly sure that the costs of the measures are commensurate with the risk.

“Likewise, any government proposal which might directly or indirectly influence the independent regulator over its operations and decision-making will invite suspicion, especially when plans have been drawn up behind closed doors. The Electoral Commission must be impartial both in practice and in the public perception if it is to credibly maintain the integrity of our electoral system.”

Wragg added: “We feel that the elections bill proposals lack a sufficient evidence base, timely consultation, and transparency, all of which should be addressed before it makes any further progress. We cannot risk any reduction of trust in UK elections, which is why the majority of the committee is calling for the bill to be paused to give time for more work to be done to ensure the measures are fit for purpose.”"

How many of the tory MPs who are threatening to vote against the government tomorrow, will also vote against voter id?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 06:10 PM

Voter ID is a blatant attempt to make it difficult for less savvy people, poorer people, ethnic minority people, people who for one reason or another suspect "the system" and who would rather stay below the radar, to vote. Let's face it, most of those people wouldn't exactly vote Tory. There is next to no evidence in this country that voter fraud is a problem. The proposal is an egregious attack on democracy and a egregious attempt to favour the Tory vote. Had there been evidence of massive voter fraud, I'd think differently. In the meantime, let's see this proposal for what it is.

So-called vaccine passports (which aren't actually that) are a different matter. There is no compulsion involved in this. You don't have to get vaccinated if you don't want to. I agree with that (I'm fully jabbed and boostered, by the way). But I don't think that unvaccinated people, who are known to be a bigger risk to the rest of us, should enjoy the unfettered right to go into crowded places. That right would be an infringement of our right to stay as safe as we reasonably can whilst still enjoying as normal a life as possible. If I ran Anfield you wouldn't get in unless you could prove that you are vaccinated up to the level that currently obtains for your age group. My choice following your choice. Why would I want to risk the health of the other 50,000 people there? Opportunistic comments from football-haters not welcome...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 03:54 PM

So the Tories got their Plan B measures through thanks only to Labour voting in favour. It's tempting to think that Labour might have seen the political advantage of that, but I'm resisting that thought. Had I been voting, I'd have reluctantly voted for Plan B (though not in favour of *mandatory* masks, maybe).

We can't go on forever restricting people's freedom to live normal lives. If this crisis came up again next autumn/winter, I would not support another Plan B resurrection. By then, the government must have fulfilled its responsibility, with great science in tow, to be on top of the virus and to have much better vaccines. No holds barred, no finance spared. The public must be bombarded with all the best information and advice. The conspiracy theorists must be stopped in their tracks. We may have to live with this virus for the rest of our lives, but we must be able to live with it on the same footing as the way we live with flu. We had a terrible flu winter five years ago, but no-one even remotely suggested passports or masks.

I do believe that we currently have a real crisis that is threatening the health service and I reluctantly agree with the need to prove yourself before going into crowded venues, as I said in my last post. I think that insisting that you can go to a club or a football match when you've been pig-headed enough to refuse the vaccine is tantamount to an attempted attack on the freedoms of more responsible people than you. But just this once. After this unprecedented wave has passed, that should be it. Normal life, personal responsibility, no compulsions...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 02:08 AM

I partially agree with that, Steve, but not entirely. You are right about the need to get to the point that we can handle this in the same way as we do flu, and if that means annual injections, so be it. It also means dedicating a proportion of our medical researchers to it, predicting likely variants and designing vaccines, just as we do for flu. That comes with both actual and opportunity costs. Again, so be it.

Where I differ, though, is the 'Never again' aspect. The future is inherently unknowable. SO I will agree we need to get to "Use the funding and resources to do all in our power so it does not happen again." But I can't go that final step, and if variant Nabla arrives which is sufficiently extreme, I would vote for another lockdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 03:48 AM

the whole thing has been mishandled, relying upon vaccines that are only partially eff3ctive, whilst no state of the art fever hospitals have been built. it makes me suspect politicians have been bought to represent the pharma companies. the problem has been caused not just by the virus but by years of hospital underfunding, the hospitals are at a crisis point , yet no one builds virus hospitals
definition of a vaccine
a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
what we are being told is a vaccine is in fact against covid 19. is in fact a misnomer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:42 AM

The problem is that "lockdowns work" and "masks work" have become received wisdoms. Statistics, which are all we've got, are actually extremely unconvincing for both those measures. We went through summer 2020 with no lockdowns and no masks, horrified by images of beaches stuffed with tens of thousands of people sitting cheek by jowl. And guess what. Cases plummeted to next to nothing. Not saying for one second that there's no truth therein at all. But we simply can't go on splitting up families and friends every time there's a surge. We can't keep having to endure the inhumanity of elderly people and people with dementia unable to see their loved ones. For the last eight months of her life, my mother, profoundly deaf, only ever saw me, wearing a mask and shield, through a Perspex screen, once every two weeks. I had to resort to communicating with her with a whiteboard and marker. Before that, I'd sit with her in her room for hours or take her out for rides at the seaside three times a week. Children cooped up in flats with no gardens for months, deprived of their friends and their schooling. It's all very well for us self-contained wrinklies to espouse lockdowns, but let's think instead about the way that lockdowns affect the mental and physical health of millions of human beings.

Actually, it's almost a dead cert that the transmission of the virus is overwhelming led by schoolchildren. Do you think we should close all the schools for a few months? Along with vaccination, the only other surefire way of knocking the disease on the head? Well I don't think so! But let's not kid ourselves that piffling around with masks and arbitrary restrictions on mixing with friends and family will have anything other than the slightest impact. We have managed for decades to live with the threat of flu every winter, without lockdown, masks or restrictions on social mixing. But with science keeping on top via constant vaccine updating. That's the only way forward in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 06:21 AM

Steve:
Voter ID is a blatant attempt to make it difficult for less savvy people, poorer people, ethnic minority people, people who for one reason or another suspect "the system" and who would rather stay below the radar, to vote. Let's face it, most of those people wouldn't exactly vote Tory.

Is this an about-turn?
I thought you were among those who thought that it was allowing the 'less savvy' to vote which won/lost the Brexit vote.
People who would 'prefer to stay below the radar'. Do you mean those working in the 'black economy' who don't contribute properly via taxation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 06:57 AM

I wasn't aware that working in the black economy disqualified you from voting, Nigel. Super-rich tax-evaders with armies of accountants, the same. And I don't think I've ever said that anyone should have to pass an intelligence test before they can vote. So no about-turn from me. There will be many law-abiding members of ethnic minority groups who are suspicious
of any move by the state to make carrying ID compulsory, just as there are many such who are vaccine-hesitant. To you and me, their concerns may seem groundless, but there is no law against having groundless concerns. If there was evidence of large-scale voter fraud, I'd be with you. But there isn't, so it's right to suspect the motives of those who want to bring in measures that would have the potential to make it harder to vote for those at the bottom of the ladder to combat a non-existent problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 08:16 AM

The object of a vaccine is to lessen the severity of disease, hospitalisation and death, which for covid has been largely successful. It does not prevent transmission, which is una parva distincta de pescados altogether, and is currently the job of masks and social distancing, until such time as appropriate scientific discovery is made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 10:01 AM

I am in full agreement that schools are super spreaders but I don't know what we can do about it. There is a massive secondary school complete with 6th form at the top of our road. Around 3:30, a bit before and after due to staggering home times, there is a massive surge of teenagers wandering about the area. They are completely unconcerned about social distancing. I am not blaming them as, oddly enough, I remember being a teenager and being the only person that was important!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 10:36 AM

more hospitals need to be built to deal with pressure on the NHS,
and in ireland the same criteria should be applied

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 11:48 AM

"PM should introduce 10-day circuit-breaker lockdown, says Independent Sage"

well, I think we will all agree that's not happening. Johnson would be against it anyway, but after yesterday's wholehearted support from his party, it would be somewhat surprising if that is what he announces in about 15 minutes time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 12:04 PM

The schools situation is even worse in rural areas such as mine, Dave. Loads of the children are bussed in from all over the place, sometimes from a radius of ten miles or more, then spend all day up close with their mates catching God knows what then taking it back into their villages.

The vaccines have done a tremendous job, Dick, call them what you will. They don't stop you catching the virus but they have cut down hospital admissions and deaths to a tenth of what they were last time the infection rate was this high. That is unarguable. Of course we need more hospitals, Dick. They take a while to build. They need to be equipped. Not least, there aren't enough doctors and nurses to run our current hospitals. Long-term aspirations are admirable, but we have a current emergency that needs dealing with very quickly with the resources we have to hand right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 12:08 PM

Dave the Gnome:
Schools have "staggering home times"? I thought that was more down to pubs.
Although, thinking back to my time in the sixth form . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 12:29 PM

I agree that staffing them is the main problem, but I think it would make sense to revive some variation of the Nightingale hospitals in some form. Not perhaps so focused on ventilation, but simply increasing the number of beds quickly might be a wise investment.
I said at the time that even though it turned out we barely used the Nightingales, it was still the right decision based on what we knew at the time. I think the same applies now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Nigel - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 03:08 PM

steve shaw , the pandemic has been with us nearly 3 years, and no investment in hospitals being built.how much longer do we have to wait
hospitals designed for viruses, would free the other hospitals for other illnesses.
the vaccines have not done a tremendous job, they have done a moderately good job.
, the problems have been caused by lack of investment over years, in 3 years nothing has improved with the health service.
92 percent of the population has been vaccinated, and the hospitals are still overstretched. time to look at other solutions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 03:12 PM

This man knows what he is talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 03:37 PM

It's not quite two years actually, Dick, unless you know something we don't...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 04:11 PM

As usual sandman is talking drivel. Even if they sought to build more such hospitals, the money is not there - how many £billion has been spent on furlough, SEISS and bounce back loans?????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:01 PM

the money was there to spend on vaccines according to the finANcial times the uk has spent NEARLY 12 billion on vaccines, if they had spent 8 billion on vaccines they could have spent NEARLY 4 billion on hospital building .bonzo from the FT
UK spending on Covid vaccines hits nearly £12bn, watchdog says
Cost does not cover future multiyear programmes for jabs, National Audit Office says.
        Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [e-mail] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
        https://www.ft.com/content/58b11945-71b1-4f96-b389-695e162642fb

        

The UK’s push to secure and administer hundreds of millions of doses of coronavirus vaccines is estimated to have cost up to £11.7bn so far, according to the public spending watchdog.

The government has signed deals for five vaccines providing up to 267m doses at an expected cost of £2.9bn, with non-binding agreements with two other companies set to bring total provision to 357m doses, the National Audit Office said in a report published on Wednesday.

Additional costs including those associated with sponsoring trials, distributing and administering the vaccines lifted the total spend to £11.7bn.

The total cost was “likely to change” as officials obtained a clearer understanding of the deployment and quality of the vaccines, the report noted.

Crucially, the figure “does not cover the costs of any future potential multiyear vaccination programmes”. It is still unclear for how long the jabs protect against Covid-19, but experts have said vaccination campaigns will have to be repeated.

The report also said that many drugmakers had requested immunity in the event of legal action, meaning taxpayers may have to pay the costs of claims against them. In four out of five contracts, no cap has been applied to the amount that the government could pay in the event of a successful claim against the pharmaceutical companies in certain, unspecified circumstances.

In negotiating with the EU, drugmakers pursued a similar approach. Both the UK and the EU rejected requests for complete immunity.

Of the £11.7bn, £6.2bn is expected to support the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy’s procurement and manufacturing activities, and £4.9bn to support administration of the vaccines through the Department of Health and Social Care. Additionally, up to £619m will fund global vaccine research efforts, £548m of which has been earmarked to enable low and middle-income countries to access vaccines through the development aid budget.
bonzo, do you know better than the financial times, you are an uninformed driveller

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 07:56 PM

Thing is, Dick, we are where we are, innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 01:31 AM

"The Conservatives have lost the North Shropshire seat they held for nearly 200 years to the Liberal Democrats.

The by-election followed the resignation of former MP Owen Paterson who was found to have breached parliamentary rules on lobbying, and had held a majority of nearly 23,000.

New MP Helen Morgan secured a 34% swing with a turnout of 46.3%.

The defeat caps a week of challenges for the prime minister.

Ms Morgan, who stood for the Liberal Democrats in the 2019 general election, said it meant the "party was over" for Boris Johnson.

She thanked the people of North Shropshire "not just for putting your faith in me to be your champion in Parliament" but for the "hard work and sacrifices you have made over the past two years to get our communities through this awful pandemic"."

By election result - BBC

Of course, there are probably a few years to go until the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 02:31 AM

Revisiting my mythical Conservative election planning office, last seen after the Bexley by election, I think one of the things that will really scare them is that it looks like 12% or so of Labour voters were prepared to vote LibDem to get the Conservatives out. So in both of those by elections, there has been substantial and effective tactical voting.    Had Labour voters not doe so, and the LibDems lost, LibDem voters in places like Bexley might have felt cheated and not loaned theirs to Labour on another occasion. But they did, so tactical voting is looking alive and well.

I had a look yesterday and 186 or so Conservative MPs have a margin of 15,000 votes or less. Expect some very worried MPs ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 05:30 AM

"Dentists’ leaders have said mandatory jabs for healthcare staff will have a “calamitous” impact on dental services in England, as a survey revealed that one in 10 dentists have not been double-vaccinated.

MPs voted this week to approve regulations requiring NHS and social care staff to be vaccinated by April next year. All frontline health and care staff must be fully jabbed with two Covid-19 vaccines before 1 April or risk losing their jobs.

the British Dental Association (BDA) said compulsory vaccination risked “dropping a bomb on a service already stretched to breaking point” because it meant that thousands of dental workers would quit. The mass exodus would have devastating consequences for millions of patients, it said.

The stark warning comes after a survey of high street dentists by the BDA found that 9% had not had a single dose of a coronavirus vaccine. The poll found a further 1% had only had one jab.

The survey of 1,642 dentists in England conducted this month found 10% had received two doses, while 78% had a booster. The remaining 2% of dentists declined to reveal their vaccination status.

Fewer than half (48.4%) of dentists estimated all nurses operating in their practices were fully vaccinated, with 58% saying the same for hygienists, according to the survey.

But the British Dental Association (BDA) said compulsory vaccination risked “dropping a bomb on a service already stretched to breaking point” because it meant that thousands of dental workers would quit. The mass exodus would have devastating consequences for millions of patients, it said.

The stark warning comes after a survey of high street dentists by the BDA found that 9% had not had a single dose of a coronavirus vaccine. The poll found a further 1% had only had one jab.

The survey of 1,642 dentists in England conducted this month found 10% had received two doses, while 78% had a booster. The remaining 2% of dentists declined to reveal their vaccination status.

Fewer than half (48.4%) of dentists estimated all nurses operating in their practices were fully vaccinated, with 58% saying the same for hygienists, according to the survey."

Compulsory Covid jabs ‘calamitous’ for dental services in England, says BDA

I would have thought that the chances of an infected dentist passing on the virus are fairly high compared to other medical practitioners.

On the plus side, your chances of finding a dentist, infected or not, are fairly slim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 07:09 AM

"We also say ‘having a benny’ to mean the same thing - no ‘bennyism’, just a phrase everyone understands."

I did think of Crossroads when I read this. Might the phrase originate from Benny in that show?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 07:50 AM

This Old Man

“This Old Man” is a traditional English nursery rhyme and counting song.

The song was collected and published in 1937 by the nursery rhymes collector Anne Gilchrist in “Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society”, as she remembered it from her Welsh nurse from the 1870s.

Some years before another version of the song was recorded in the “English Folk-Songs for Schools” collection published in 1906 by the Cecil Sharp and Sabine Baring-Gould.

“This Old Man” Lyrics

This old man, he played one,
He played knick-knack on my thumb;
With a knick-knack paddywhack,
Give the dog a bone,
This old man came rolling home.

All nursery rhymes - This Old Man

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 07:59 AM

”We also say ‘having a benny’ to mean the same thing - no ‘bennyism’, just a phrase everyone understands."

I did think of Crossroads when I read this. Might the phrase originate from Benny in that show?”

I’ve wondered about that too. Not sure where it originated from but, again, it’s been around and in common use here in Lincs/Notts for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 08:04 AM

As I said sandman is just having a paddy in his pram.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:15 AM

NEARLY 12 BILLION Spent on a vaccine ,the money was there. I am not in a pram ,and you are using the term paddy in a way that is derogatory to irish people, you are creating and using the word in a way that stereotypes irish people. typical you lose a point in a discussion bnd resort to using paddy as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:41 AM

We did say things like "don't be a Benny" here in the Scottish Borders in my youth and yes AFAIK it was very much to do with Benny the character in Crossroads who had a bit learning difficulties. So aye I think it was a bit derogatory to folks with learning difficulties. Personally I wouldn't use that term now and wouldn't look to use "throw a Paddy" either as obviously it could potentially offend. Though it seems pretty clear that folks are probably using it quite innocently maybe not even connecting it to anything to do with the Irish.

On a newsnet group which was about Scotland but was mostly Americans and Canadians etc they took to replacing the E with an * in anything to do with England. It was just a joke as is the Voldermort name which can't be mentioned type thing. My English wife saw it continually written as *nglish though and she thought it offensive. It hadn't struck me that folks might take it seriously but she did. So I stopped using it. My adage is if you know something might be offensive to someone then why use it??? That is just me though....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:41 AM

It has, thankfully, been a long time since the 'Guido Fawkes' website has been mentioned on here, but it is being reported elsewhere in the media that whislteblowers have reported to them about two parties held in Simon Case's offices during lockdown. That is the Simon Case investigating office parties in No 10 and elsewhere during lockdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: fat B****rd
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 10:40 AM

I had it on good authority that "Benny" was an insult to Falkland
Islanders during the 1980s conflict. Apparently some of our our troops
had hats with the word on them. When reprimanded they changed it to "Not Benny".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 11:16 AM

I heard it that, when reprimanded, they changed to calling them "stills" ..... because "he's still a Benny".

The Falkland Islanders called the soldiers "When I was ins" from there constant references to "When I was in Germany ...", "When I was in Cypress ....", "When I was in Hong Kong ..." and the like. Officers were known as "When one was in".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:03 AM

I see that Simon Case has stood down from the investigation and Sue Gray has taken over. Apparently she is quite a terrier so, hopefully, the investigation will be thorough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:28 AM

There's something incredibly shabby about all this. Simon Case took on the job knowing that he himself had partied illegally. Did Johnson know that, or did he at least not question him before asking him to take on the enquiry? Or did they do a secret old pals' whitewash deal, knowing that they were both bang to rights? There's something that looks likes an entitled bubble tainting the air about all this. Let's call it corruption. Why not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:48 AM

Another option, Steve, is that Case knew he held a party but being in charge of the investigation thought he could control the story to the extent that was never examined.

Not a lot better, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 11:22 AM

I think it would be very difficult to find a suitable investigator who had fully followed all of the Covid rules at all times.

"Let he who is without sin . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 03:07 PM

It is being reported that SAGE is saying the vaccinations and boosters will not be enough and that another lockdown of some sort will be required.

Johnson is truly between a rock and a hard place. He can hardly impose a lockdown without an even bigger rebellion than 99 MPs. And if he does not, he risks "bodies piling high" and the NHS hospitals being overwhelmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 03:24 PM

Build more hospitals. THE UNDERFUNDING OF HOSPITALS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE CAUSES OF THE PROBLEM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 03:28 PM

"I think it would be very difficult to find a suitable investigator who had fully followed all of the Covid rules at all times."

Well I've followed the rules at all times. I doubt that I'd be an independent investigator of a Tory party that I already know to be corrupt. So I'm not suitable, but there will be millions like me, and many of those would be suitable. Whoever it would be, it wouldn't be one of the Downing Street in-crowd, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 11:34 AM

The times we are living in.

"After urging the crowd to “hammer to death those scum who have decided to go ahead with introducing new fascism”, Corbyn appears to tell a crowd in the video: “You’ve got to get a list of them … and if your MP is one of them, go to their offices and, well, I would recommend burning them down, OK. But I can’t say that on air. I hope we’re not on air.”

He also says: “We’ve got to take down these lying MPs. And we’ve got to support and welcome all of those who have rebelled or voted against Boris, ie rebelled from the Tories or my brother and his mates who voted against the measures yesterday, which is a step forward.”"

Piers Corbyn arrested on suspicion of calling for MPs’ offices to be burned down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 12:22 PM

I think Piers may be an embarrassment to the family. At least Jo Johnson had the sense to distance himself from his brother!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 08:24 PM

Piers may not be the only embarrassment to the family:
Metro Feb 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 09:02 PM

Piers isn't running the country, Nigel. Neither is Jezza. It makes a difference.

By the way, I was at Imperial College at the same time as Piers (Brian May too!) and we did cross paths. Even then I saw him as a scoundrel. By a weird coincidence, my missus-to-be once encountered him creeping out of a hall of residence in London after an illicit night visit, slippers and woolly jumper in hand. The die was cast.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 12:04 PM

Interesting article on yet another government failure.

Schools let down by government’s hot air on ventilation

They can spend billions on an ineffective test and trace system, throw money down the drain on poor quality PPE and line the pockets of their mates but they do not have the money to tackle poor ventilation in schools. Schools are noted super spreaders. It has been known since early 2020 that good ventilation helps to stop the spread. Yet here we are nearly in 2022 and those two pieces of data seem to have been ignored. Where is the joined up thinking here? OK, children may not be as affected by Covid as others but they spread the virus to their grannies and many more. What about the at risk kids, teachers and support workers? What about these retired teachers that they are now asking to return to the classroom?

The more I look at what this shower of shits are doing, the more I realise how corrupt, inept and selfish they are. Surely they cannot keep it up much longer. Can they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 12:35 PM

A more up to date article from the same source.

Schools Week

The news is not much better.

"The more I look at what this shower of shits are doing, the more I realise how corrupt, inept and selfish they are. Surely they cannot keep it up much longer. Can they?"

Of course they can. We might well end up with a new prime minister but I doubt that we will have an election before 2023, probably 2024.

Why would they call for an election?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 12:55 PM

Isn't that johnson's strategy, to use schoolkids to help 'solve' the social care crisis and pensions deficit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 01:26 PM

i was going on about ventilation, on this forum months ago,when i go on about building of hospitals, i get abuse from croydon man, who insists on miscalling my moniker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 01:45 PM

here 2 may 2021
[PM] The Sandman         BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19 (1953* d)         RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19         02 May 21

    it is also spread by lack of ventilation in buildings, hospitals, schools, supermarkets, they need to be redesigned too, masks are only part of the solution and are not as important as ventilation, some hopitals need to be redesigned specifically to deal with viruses, regardless of masks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:21 AM

Not sure how they intend to make this work. Seems more like a headline grabbing move.

Covid: Fines for Wales employees not working from home

"Fines will be handed out to employees in Wales who go to work when they could work from home.

From Monday, workers will receive a £60 fixed penalty notice and companies hit with fines of £1,000 every time they break the rule.

Until now there has just been guidance encouraging home working.

The union GMB said it would affect "the poorest, most vulnerable workers" while the TUC said it was "at best naïve" to think responsibility is shared.

"Additional measures have been introduced to limit the spread of the virus and protect public health," said a Welsh government spokesman.

"Further to our long-standing advice for people to work from home wherever possible, from Monday this will now be a legal requirement to work from home unless there is a reasonable excuse not to.

"We expect employers to take all reasonable steps to facilitate home working and provide employees with the support they need.""

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 08:57 AM

"some hopitals need to be redesigned specifically to deal with viruses, regardless of masks"

why do you think they have "COVID PODS" specifically to deal with covid 19???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 11:15 AM

Brick by Brick Croydon Ltd, a company set up by the labour council which has bankrupted Croydon, filed accounts today at Companies House for year ended 31/03/21 showing a loss of over £25 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 11:33 AM

Did anyone really expect a company set up by a Labour Council to do well under a Tory government, Bonzo? Was it run by the Labour Council or by businessmen? Was it Brexit or Covid that did for them? Your information is less than complete!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:03 PM

It was run by the labour council, former leader and sidekick calling himself an accountant forced to resign earlier this year. Absolutely nothing to do with the tory government, it was mismanaged and may well be subject to investigation by the fraud squad!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:12 PM

It is insolvent to the tune of £27million.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 12:36 PM

Of course it's something to do with the government, Bonzo. They set the rules and regulate the climate for businesses. If it was mismanaged which I dare say that the investigation will confirm or refute, that will have had a bearing too. But it seems to have little or nothing to do with the Labour Party. Unless you can provide evidence otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 01:10 PM

Considering the idiots who were running the labour council were labour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 01:41 PM

It was, in your words, "run by the labour council, former leader and sidekick calling himself an accountant forced to resign earlier this year."

How does that reflect on the Labour Party? Apart from they seem to have divested themselves of this former leader?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 03:16 PM

Jon Snow's last night as anchorman for Channel 4 News last night, and a host of colleagues and interviewees from over the years contributed to a moving tribute to the most honest, straight and humane journalist of his era.
Even Rees-Mogg contributed, though with a slightly catty and Me story, about his child rushing in when Snow called for an interview, shouting "Nanny! It's the lefty from the telly!"
He'll be hugely missed, though he leaves behind a team of wonderful journalists including Krishnan Guru-Murthy, Catherine Newman, Fatima Manji, Matt Frei et al. I hope they'll keep it as good as he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 04:37 PM

How on Earth can any political party think it is OK to present Angela Raynor as a serious politician. She flaunts, proudly, her total lack of education verbally, but on these tv programmes her lack of basic
intelligence is stupefying. Her method is simply to keep repeating the jargon and shouting down andignoring the questioner ! Carry on Labour, be out of office for another 10 years!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 06:17 PM

how on earth can any political party think it is ok to present Johnson as a serious politician? he flaunts proudly his total lack of attention to detail, and on these tv programmes his lack of basic intelligence is stupefying. His method is to keep repeating porkies and not answering the question, furthermore he seems to want to keep producing children, as if there were not enough morons in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 02:47 AM

Some disturbing but far from unexpected news last night:

"If No 10 proposes tighter restrictions straight after Christmas, those cabinet ministers with freedom-loving instincts – who gave us all so much hope last week – must speak out," the Observer quoted one member of the Covid Recovery Group of Tory MPs as saying.

"In any future leadership contest, we will all remember how they acted this week. We need real, gutsy, freedom-loving Conservatives to rescue us from this madness."


Forget the precise topic, and look at the overall flavour. The Covid Recovery Group is, largely, the same people as the ERG and that was similar to the group who harassed Cameron some much.

Once again, they are making clear that whoever the future PM may be, they have to do want the the group wants. Cameron, May and   Johnson were all fundamentally weakened by the group, and they are signalling strongly they intend to be Kingmakers to whoever comes next.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 04:56 AM

Ventilation of buildings is the new requrement, this will also boost the economy, employing people on public works[ keynesian economics]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 05:20 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0012scb
Vaccinate, ventilate and breathe
Start the Week

Catherine Noakes, Teresa Lambe and James Nestor discuss the scientific race against Covid-19 and the lost art of breathing, with Andrew Marr.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 06:24 AM

We all know you are frightened by strong women, Bonzo. Just like your illustrious leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 10:32 AM

What?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 01:51 PM

You heard

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:44 AM

2022: The Downfall of Boris Johnson

We can but hope. Trouble is, who will we get in return. The only person fit to lead the Tories now is Kier Starmer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:02 AM

Ha ha, very funny Dave. Bonzo might be pleased, seeing how he and Kier appear to have similar views on Angela Rayner.

Be careful of what you wish for. If Boris goes we could end up with a prime minister who believes in tory policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:12 PM

Some of this stuff reminds me of one of the season enders of the original "Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy" radio programs where the spaceship of phone-sanitizers and economists landed on prehistoric Earth and decided to make leaves the currency hence to prevent inflation they were burning the forests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:27 PM

Didn't everyone on their home planet die of a virus caught from unsanitised telephones? Maybe Mr Adams foresaw Covid19!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:49 PM

This government has deliberately run down the NHS over a decade. I gave the comparative investment figures in the NHS of successive governments a few weeks ago. By a country mile, the Tories since 2010 have been the worst, no competition. Even before this pandemic, waiting lists for specialist treatment were ballooning out of control and A&E waiting targets were being routinely missed on an ever-deteriorating basis. There's no doubt in my mind that there is an agenda to replace the NHS with insurance-style private medicine. Here are three letters from the Guardian, whose sentiments I entirely agree with:

Your report on the state of the NHS (One in four Britons ‘not confident NHS can care for them’, survey reveals, 26 December) was summed up by the quote from Wes Streeting, the shadow health secretary: “With record waiting lists, 100,000 NHS staff shortages and 112,000 vacancies in social care in 2019, the Tories left our health service criminally ill-equipped for Covid.”

My husband, in the final stages of dementia and awaiting a place in care, is in a holding ward. Insufficient nurses try to cope, but mouth hygiene is neglected. And no shower or hair wash for more than a month. He deserves better. Hardly God’s waiting room, more like death row. Aneurin Bevan will be turning in his grave.
Hilda Reynolds
Bristol

• You report that one in four of us is not sure that the NHS can care for them. I wonder if this stage in public sentiment was envisaged or even engineered as part of a transition to a system of private healthcare. For almost two years we have been bludgeoned with the command to protect the NHS. But protecting the NHS is not primarily our responsibility – it’s the government’s. There’s nothing inevitable about the NHS having to struggle along on inadequate resources while its staff compensate for the deficit with heroic amounts of goodwill.
Susan Tomes
Edinburgh

• In the past four months, three friends of mine, all ardent believers in the NHS, have swallowed their principles and paid for private operations to avoid a wait of up to two years for surgery that would restore their quality of life. They have no doubts about the quality of care provided by the NHS, but its underresourcing means that long waits for non-urgent interventions have become painfully inevitable.

With a heavy heart, I fear that I would do the same in their position. This is what 11 years of underfunding has come to. And yes, I do believe that this is a Conservative strategy towards private healthcare, in which, because we can afford to do so, we find ourselves colluding.
Ruth Pickles
Congleton, Cheshire

I haven't bought private medical care and my principles have never allowed me to do so. But I can afford it if push comes to shove. So what would I do if a loved one was in constant pain and couldn't get NHS treatment? I know two ladies, both now in advanced years, who have hip troubles that are seriously affecting their quality of life. One can't get referred at all at the moment and the other has been told that the waiting list is two years long. You are in your seventies and you are virtually immobilised and you have to wait two years (if you're lucky...) Just before the first lockdown I had an appointment to see my GP about a painful shoulder which had troubled me for a year. I'd waited five weeks for the GP appointment in any case, and two days before it I was told that face-to-face appointments had been cancelled due to COVID-19. The doctor telephoned me and said that he could no longer refer me to a consultant and that all he could advise was that I should take paracetamol.

So don't believe any numbers you see about the five or six million on waiting lists. There are millions more of us who can't even get on a waiting list. Suppose the sun came out tomorrow and the pandemic disappeared. How long do you think it will take to get the waiting lists down to pre-Tory levels? Well I'll tell you. It won't happen inside the lifetime of anyone reading this post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:04 AM

Of course it can, Steve. There is an extra £350 million pounds a week being spent on the NHS. It must be true, Boris wrote it on the side of a bus. Now we have kicked out all those damned foreigners and rule our empire once, the government will pay a decent wage for NHS staff and get the unemployed retrained as doctors and nurses to man all the new hospitals being built. People voted in their droves for Boris because he fulfils the will of the people so whatever he does must be right. Anyway all opposing the will of the people are antisemitic remowners and they have caused all the problems. We pulled together during the blitz. Surely we can overcome small inconveniences like no health care, lack of basic freedoms and a return to good old feudal serfdom?

Happy New Year

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:29 AM

Anyone heard from Punkfolkrocker recently? He has not posted since the 2nd of December. Hope all is OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:44 AM

Steve: This government has deliberately run down the NHS over a decade. I gave the comparative investment figures in the NHS of successive governments a few weeks ago.

I didn't see your earlier figures. How do they compare with the ones provided by The Kings Fund which show spending on NHS and social care increasing (with a slight blip in 2020) year on year, in real terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 07:35 AM

If you spend your beer and fags money more sensibly on private medical insurance then your waiting time will clearly be much shorter!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 07:40 AM

Nigel, the following is from the link you provided.

"During the period of austerity that followed the 2008 economic crash, the Department of Health and Social Care budget continued to grow but at a slower pace than in previous years. Budgets rose by 1.4 per cent each year on average (adjusting for inflation) in the 10 years between 2009/10 to 2018/19, compared to the 3.7 per cent average rises since the NHS was established."

We do need to have a grown up discussion about NHS funding. Sadly that does not seem likely to happen during my lifetime. We just carry on in this country,going from one government term to another, without addressing long term problems. Nearly everything is geared to short term solutions.

The recent series on the Blair/Brown years briefly mentioned NHS funding. Brown wanted to try to come up with a long term solution to funding, rather than just bunging money at it periodically to try and solve problems in the short term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:10 PM

I have just in on this thread. My wife had had both hips and both knees replaced. One of the operations was NHS (the third); the others we paid for privately.

In each case it was because of the waiting time, but it was a long and complicated saga, including a wait of several years on the NHS for the first of them, and then to have it cancelled while she was on the operating table because of a heart flutter they had not detected before and the place she was sent had no one with the relevant skills. After that, she was told she had to wait for months until they were confident there was no.major problem, then they would put her back.on the waiting list.

We went private.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 06:04 PM

So. The wonderful woman who runs Park Lane Stables, which provides riding for disabled children and for which she has had to put in an almighty fundraising effort just to keep it afloat, gets an MBE. Two young lads who have made huge efforts over many months to raise hundreds of thousands for charities get a BEM each.

Tony Blair, who lied to this country about WMDs and whose part in the invasion of Iraq helped to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians and who made our country a favourite target for Islamic terrorists, gets the highest honour in the land, bestowed personally by the Queen. She must be mad, poor dear.

Well I believe in an honours system. But when I see incredibly dodgy people such as Blair and business barons getting the top gongs, and really dedicated people sacrificing everything for their communities getting the scraps, and thousands of NHS and care workers who have worked their fingers selflessly to the bone in extremely difficult and dangerous conditions getting no recognition at all, from now on I'm going to turn the honours list upside down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:59 AM

The "Honours System" is a curious beast. I am not sure I know anyone who has regarded it as much more than a bi-annual talking point. People who liked Blair, for example, are not going to like him more as a result of his award, and if they disliked him the gong is not going to change their mind. I have known one or two MBEs, but they rarely used it, rather like most of the people I know with academic doctorates do not insist on being called 'Doctor'.

The only thing I find worthy of comment in this is Daniel Craig being awarded the gong James Bond had. The only rational explanation of that is that the people awarding the honours do not take it seriously either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 07:06 AM

I think it's a bit more insidious than a bi-annual talking point. Sir Paul McCartney, Sir Bob Geldof, Sir Mick Jagger, Sir Elton John, Sir Cliff Richard, Sir Lewis Hamilton, Dame Mary Berry, Dame Twiggy... their Sirhoods or Damehoods are routinely trotted obsequiously out by the media whenever they are topical for some reason or other, reminding us of...what, exactly? The fact that they were in the right place at the right time to make themselves as rich as Croesus? The fact that the establishment has embraced them cordially and that, having had their profiles raised in consequence, they've gratefully reciprocated? Despite the fact that some of the above may have made philanthropic donations that I haven't heard about (accompanied usually by little actual effort on their part, Sir Bob temporarily an honourable exception), they have taken a good deal out without putting much back apart from entertaining us (earning even more money in the process, of course).

Meanwhile, in the only big hospital in Cornwall (Treliske), dozens of junior doctors, nurses, orderlies, cleaners, porters and receptionists have worked themselves ragged for two desperate years, often with woefully inadequate protection, many getting sick with the virus, a few getting very sick or dying, having to risk their own families' safety and their own mental well-being...

In a fair and just honours list, who comes higher in your view, Sir Lewis Hamilton or one of those unsung nurses?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 08:10 AM

Envy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 08:40 AM

I have all I want. No subtext to my honestly-expressed views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

I think it's a bit more insidious than a bi-annual talking point. Sir Paul McCartney, Sir Bob Geldof, Sir Mick Jagger, Sir Elton John, Sir Cliff Richard, Sir Lewis Hamilton, Dame Mary Berry, Dame Twiggy... their Sirhoods or Damehoods are routinely trotted obsequiously out by the media whenever they are topical for some reason or other, reminding us of...what, exactly? The fact that they were in the right place at the right time to make themselves as rich as Croesus? The fact that the establishment has embraced them cordially and that, having had their profiles raised in consequence, they've gratefully reciprocated? Despite the fact that some of the above may have made philanthropic donations that I haven't heard about (accompanied usually by little actual effort on their part, Sir Bob temporarily an honourable exception), they have taken a good deal out without putting much back apart from entertaining us (earning even more money in the process, of course).

Knighthoods (NOT 'sirhoods') just for making money?
I thinks Bob Geldof received his honorary knighthood for making money for charity (Live Aid/ Band Aid). Of course, being an honorary knighthood he is also not entitled to be 'Sir Bob'.
Sir Cliff's knighthood was also for services to entertainment, and charity work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 11:30 AM

Tut tut Nigel. If you had read Steve's comments thoroughly you would have noticed that he clearly states "Sir Bob temporarily an honourable exception"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 12:51 PM

Raggytash:
I did read it through.
If Steve had been serious about Bob Geldof being an exception then he could have been left out of Steve's list. As he wasn't then the initial list reads like a list of targets for the general comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:05 PM

i value the unsung nurses more. I think they are more useful to society. didnt jimmy saville get a knighthood for his work for charity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:42 PM

"Of course, being an honorary knighthood he is also not entitled to be 'Sir Bob'."

Technically correct, of course. The problem is that the media have routinely referred to him as "Sir Bob," probably out of affection. That's not an illegal thing to do. We can all call him that if we want and many people wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

By the way, I wasn't "targeting" anyone. That was a list of people plucked from the top of my head over a space of 48 seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 07:25 PM

So, secondary school children have to wear masks in class all day from now on.

Well I think that's a disgrace. Just think of the mask-fiddling, the upping and downing, the itchy nose, the nose-picking. Aside from all that, there's the naked attack on the human rights of children to spend their days laughing, smiling, putting their tongues out and scolding each other. Waste of time, useless and inhuman.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 03:38 AM

”uk has spent 12 billion on vaccinations, and precious little on anything else”

…apart from £30 billion on a ‘Track & Trace System’ that didn’t work, £15 million on a ferry company with no ferries, and quite a substantial number of millions handed out to the Tories’ cronies for numerous other mysterious contracts - notably PPE which either were unsuitable or simply didn’t arrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:44 AM

When The Queen, in her majesty, grants you a knighthood
Don't be too hasty, or take it as read.
Remember there's only a very short distance
'tween "Dub thee Sir Tony" and "Orf with his head!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 12:47 PM

There is also something to be said about the possibility of UK residents of a certain age bringing a class action against the authorities, the medical profession, and the manufacturers of cod liver oil, for the abuse they caused by forcing children to take spoonfuls of cod liver oil all those years ago.

Cod science indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 04:04 PM

Yes and orange juice!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 07:39 PM

At risk of irritating John, I should to clear one or two things up about vitamin D.

In the UK, between March and October, you can get all the vitamin D you need by going into the sunshine for fifteen or twenty minutes a few times a week. This applies if you expose enough skin - arms, legs, heads, sort of thing, but it doesn't apply if you're plastered in sunscreen or dressed up to the hilt. In the other months you need to get the vitamin from food. Or supplements. If you eat oily fish, eggs or red meat, no problem. These days, breakfast cereals and those soya and oat milks can be great sources - read the label.

There is next to no evidence that taking vitamin D will stop you from catching "the virus" or make you less sick if you do catch it. Sorry, guys!

Opinion-only time: I hate the supplement industry. My conviction is that supplements are at best a waste of money for all except for a few vulnerable people. If you're a vegan, you have a self-inflicted B12 issue. Over to you. And your diet needs to to be really good with regard to fresh or frozen greens if you want to get sufficient folate, and folate is a bit of a red flag for pregnant women. Apart from that, chuck you multivitamins in the bin and deprive those cynical pill-pushers of their ill-gotten profits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:16 AM

No irritation for me Steve, I have no problem with well-presented arguments/opinions, expressed by someone who writes in a literate, educated manner. I don’t question the content of your post because I’m not sufficiently expert to dispute some of the points you make, and because I agree with you on the rest.

FWIW, I’m not ‘irritated’ at all by the thread-drift away from UK politics towards Covid-19, I get Raindog’s point that there’s a political side to a discussion about C-19 here in the UK, and I can’t argue against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:52 AM

….and I made a decision some time ago not to allow myself to be irritated by things I read here in future. “When you observe a pile of shit, carefully avoid treading in it and walk on…” is my policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 10:56 AM

With regard to the Stoners’ thread, I refer to my post of 04 Jan 22 - 12:52 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:19 PM

Stoners' thread - heheh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 05:30 PM

Anyway, less of this light-hearted banter. We are in serious trouble here. We have a fat, scruffy buffoon of a prime minister who is not just on the ropes, he's wallowing on the urine-soaked deck of the ringside bogs. But our "leader" of the opposition stands on a platform today and, instead of going all open-season on Johnson, he prattles on about how he's "making a contract with the British people" and about how patriotic he is. I'm having trouble here unclenching my buttockry...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

Please keep the COVID discussion over on the COVID thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 09:09 PM

The COVID-19 issue is politically topical in the UK. Your deletions are incredibly clumsy to say the least. For goodness sake, find something better to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 11:38 PM

A very unpleasant task when it becomes necessary.

The alternative is to close the thread.

Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 03:19 AM

"Your call."

Not really, it is up to everyone who contributes to this thread to have an equal call, not just Steve. And if a single person can make that call, surely it has to be DtG who started the thread?

I for one am happy to keep Covid related discussion to the Covid thread as this is a worldwide issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:16 AM

So if I want to criticise the government for failing to provide sufficient lateral flow tests, or for forcing children to wear masks in the classroom, or for stalling in the vaccination programme, I mustn't discuss it in the UK politics thread? Jesus wept...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 04:30 AM

I agree 100%, of course it's a political subject!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:37 AM

If YOU agree with me, I might have to change me mind... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 08:31 AM

No in this instance we need to stick together!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:48 AM

It was only one of many, SPB! I didn't start the rest

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:56 AM

The sniping between Steve and Dick is at a level that I'm hearing about it from others. The subject they're arguing about is COVID over here in the UK Political thread. Yes, you can strain the original meaning of the thread but please don't. Just go talk about COVID in the COVID thread and argue about Brexit and UK politics over here. The ad hominem stuff needs to stop. You, too, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 11:40 AM

USAiani ite domum !!!

---

You forget, perhaps, WHERE this site is hosted? ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:56 PM

Or, as Brian would have it, ‘USAanes eunt domus’. :-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:58 PM

Following on from my post on the Trump thread about The Media Show. It was mentioned on the show that Politics For All has been permanently banned from Twitter.

The Guardian

"Politics for All, founded by 19-year-old Nick Moar, grew rapidly over the last twelve months by aggressively aggregating news stories published and reported by mainstream outlets. Its understanding of what would go viral on Twitter attracted hundreds of thousands of followers, including MPs and government ministers."

And

"However, it is unclear how the aggregator could appeal against the permanent suspension, which is similar to the treatment handed out to former US President Donald Trump. Twitter has stated the suspension is final and its rules on platform manipulation apply to users who “artificially amplify or suppress information or engage in behaviour that manipulates or disrupts people’s experience”. The specific behaviour that led to Politics for All being banned remains unknown.

The deletion of a relatively popular news aggregation service by Twitter could attract political scrutiny. Social media platforms will soon be regulated by Ofcom under the forthcoming online harms legislation, with mainstream journalism outlets lobbying hard to ensure their access to audiences is protected."

Regulated by Ofcom? Well let's see how that turns out. Twitter will probably close Ofcom's twitter account

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:03 PM

"The sniping between Steve and Dick is at a level that I'm hearing about it from others."

This completely misrepresents the relationship I've had with Dick over many years. Any recent distemper (which, of course, we can't see because of your delete finger, which makes your comment so easy to make) comes mostly from him. It will pass if you let it and I'm not bothered. And "from others," eh? Easy to say, innit! In the words of Butch and Sundance, who are these guys?? :-)

Anyway, back on topic, it pleased me greatly today to see "the Colston Four" (the boys and girl who toppled Colston's statue in Bristol and dumped it in the harbour) being acquitted. Colston was one of the biggest slave-traders and he oversaw a rape centre for the abuse of female captives. When the establishment won't move against injustice, I think it's fine to take non-violent direct action. Arguing about what's "legal" and what isn't can come later. The four have struck a mighty blow against institutional racism. Kudos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:35 AM

In general it is wrong for people to go round seeking retrospectively to change our history. It is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM

Nobody was ‘seeking retrospectively to change our history’, Bonz. Precisely the opposite, in fact - they were seeking to highlight a part of our history that hitherto had been down-played due to its distasteful nature. It was those who tried to draw attention away from Colston’s slave-trading/rape-centres/other nefarious activities who sought to ‘change our history’, don’cha fink?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:04 AM

Changing history and venerating slave owners who abused people is two different things, Bonzo. Todays history is telling us that when these statues were erected people believed that people such as Colson were heroes. Tomorrows history will tell us that we, the people of today, did not accept that they were heroes but villains instead.

How many statues of Adolph Hitler are still standing? None as far as I know. It doesn't alter the fact that he existed but no one celebrates that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 09:51 AM

It’s ‘Adolf’, not Adolph, Dave! ;-)
But you’re absolutely right otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 11:15 AM

HMRC has waived late filing and late payment penalties for self assessment taxpayers by one month, effectively delaying the tax return deadline to 28 February

The tax authority has announced that it will not give out financial penalties for late filing and late payments for self assessment tax returns which will give more time for taxpayers to complete and submit 2020-21 tax return online and pay any tax due.

The deadline to file and pay remains 31 January 2022 however the extension of the deadline means that anyone who cannot file their return by the end of January will not receive a late filing penalty if they file online by 28 February.

The waiver also means that anyone who cannot pay their self assessment tax by the January deadline will not receive a late payment penalty if they pay their tax in full, or set up a time to pay arrangement, by 1 April. HMRC states that interest will still be payable from 1 February as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM

Irrelevant, Bonzo. We're all folkies here. Black economy wallahs. Banknotes in plain brown envelopes over the bar. No cheques, bank transfers, cards, etc., thanks. Free beer...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:39 PM

I offered to do a gig for free beer once. They said they had seen me drink and couldn't afford me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM

Here you go, Bonzo, read this and improve your education.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 03:59 PM

They are scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 04:24 PM

You’re entitled to your opinion, Bonz, no matter how wrong that opinion is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 04:34 PM

I seem to recall Bonzo berating someone for calling Tories scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 04:50 PM

Nice one, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:23 PM

A great pity they weren't tried by a magistrate, then they would have been put away!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 06:53 PM

Give over. Magistrates can do bugger all these days. I see that the jury verdict has got a good few Tory MPs going apoplectic. Now that I love...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 04:42 PM

They had no right to try and change our history. It is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 05:30 PM

For goodness’ sake, Bonzo, they didn’t ‘try and change our history’ - they tried to shed light on history that had been kept dark. If anyone ‘tried to change our history’, it was those in the past who decided to keep Colston’s part in the slave-trade, and his involvement in the rape and abuse of slaves, away from public gaze.

Give your big daft head a wobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 22 - 05:59 PM

Well the jury thought otherwise, Bonzo. As the true Brit you are, I at least thought that you'd recognise that our jury system, flawed though we could claim it to be, is one of the jewels in the crown of our democracy, as it has been for many centuries. I'm amazed that you're not here having a go at Suella Braverman, who (like many of the reactionary Tory backwoodsmen - sorry, John) thinks that only her brand of justice is proper justice. With so many Tories, including Johnson and Priti Patel thinking along the same lines, we should be bloody worried, frankly. Even you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:23 AM

It is not difficult, Bonzo. History cannot be changed. It has happened and there is nothing anyone can do about it. What happend here is that History was made. It is the point at which people said "we will no longer venerate slave traders". In future History books there will be the story of how we, the people of today, started to understand that everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed, has the same human rights. The 'Colston 4' will be part of that story.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:33 AM

”like many of the reactionary Tory backwoodsmen - sorry, John

No apology necessary Steve! I only took up the pseudonym ‘Backwoodsman’ after a particularly obnoxious, know-it-all, female member, with a predilection for ‘The Archers’ BBC radio programme, referred to me as such when she got her frillies firmly wedged in a ‘folk-clubs’ thread. It seemed a subtle way of sticking two fingers up at her without resorting to her kind of behaviour myself.

As she left this mortal coil several years ago, I suppose I could change it, but I really don’t feel it necessary - I’ve grown comfortable with it, and it makes attempts to insult me easier for the less intelligent type of poster we get here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:48 AM

I was one of the few that attended her funeral, John!

Funnily enough my moniker was chosen in a similar self deprecating style. That and the fact that I am tall, slim and handsome of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:28 AM

My moniker was chosen by my mum and dad at or around birth. I'm always happy to use it, and, in spite of all the mires of online controversy I find myself in, it hasn't done me any harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:36 AM

Having lived through the ‘FAF’/BNP era on here (which I believe we’re not supposed to talk about), and having witnessed the havoc, damage and stress it caused to members I know personally in the real world (many, perhaps most, of whom no longer post), there’s no way in hell I’m revealing my identity publicly (although I have no problem with individuals I trust knowing it).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 10:27 AM

There are very few people that even glance at the Mudcat, John. There is far more information that people could use against you elsewhere :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 11:03 AM

A bit more education for Bonzo. Not that he will read it.

https://theconversation.com/we-attended-the-trial-of-the-colston-four-heres-why-their-acquittal-should-be-celebrated-174481?utm_

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 11:14 AM

"They had no right to try and change our history."

The statue is now in a museum, where it can be discussed within its correct historical context, unlike it could when it was on a plinth glorifying him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 11:18 AM

I also note that Niggly Farrago on Any Questions, completely full of shite as usual, thought that the Colston Four were four white men. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 12:11 PM

”There are very few people that even glance at the Mudcat”

It only takes one, Dave - ask any of the former Mudcatters whose IDs became known to The Troll, and whose accounts elsewhere were taken over/cloned and bombarded with Photoshopped photos and other material purporting to show them, for example, supporting the BNP, or speaking in support of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, and/or other defamatory material.

”There is far more information that people could use against you elsewhere

Undoubtedly true, Dave. However, my purpose in preserving my anonymity here, and on other forums of which I’m a member using different pseudonyms, is to prevent, as far as possible, individuals following me around the Internet from forum to forum making mischief. I willingly accept that anything I post here may attract antipathy here, and I can live with that, but I’ll be damned if I’ll accept disputes on this forum being dragged over on to other forums.

As I’ve said on a number of occasions, I’m happy to divulge my identity privately to ‘Catters whom I respect and trust (even though they and I may not always agree and, in fact, may disagree very strongly from time to time) - there are a number who already know who I am in The Real World, including you and Steve of course, and I’m perfectly relaxed about that - but there are those in whom I have little or no trust and for whom I have zero respect, and those are the ones from whom I want to protect my identity.

I understand perfectly that others don’t share my view on this issue, and I respect the views (and, frankly, the courage) of people like Steve and Nigel, who choose to post under their real names. But the forum rules permit the use of pseudonyms, and I choose to go that route.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 03:13 PM

Just to clarify (as it seems to have been overlooked)

The statue of Colston was not "commemorating a slaver".
It was commemorating a benefactor of Bristol who provided funds for a theatre and schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:16 PM

Much of the old Mudcat troll activity was put to rest here when Max figured out about all of his sleeper accounts (back when we could sign up on our own). He still comes back on occasion to post some foul remarks and move on; I suspect that after a lot of his Flickr accounts were shut down and My Opera and other sites closed, he ran out of predatory options and moved on to new victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:59 PM

You’ve heard the old saying, “Once bitten, twice shy”, SRS?

And it’s still possible to be followed around from forum to forum, and around your Social Media accounts, by unscrupulous people if you post everywhere under your real name. Some may be prepared to risk that, I’m not one of those and I prefer general anonymity. It doesn’t make me a lesser person, it simply indicates that I prefer caution to reckless abandon. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 05:08 PM

This is currently the only place I post under my real name, or any other name, apart from rather rare posts to the Session. Y'all know what I think about Facebook et al.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 05:44 PM

Your prerogative Steve, exactly as it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:04 PM

"The statue of Colston was not "commemorating a slaver".
It was commemorating a benefactor of Bristol who provided funds for a theatre and schools."

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These thugs committed a criminal offence and were allowed to get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 06:24 PM

It was commemorating a benefactor of Bristol who provided funds for a theatre and schools.

There are a lot of those "benefactors" who are no longer tolerated, and it isn't acceptable that they parsed out their acts, good and bad. Rhodes (as in the scholarships) is another example of that. I suspect that program will be renamed one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:24 AM

I was one of those who had fake accounts set up in my name, John. It was easy enough to get them closed down. We now know who the perpetrator is and he suffered the consequences of his actions. His master, nasty Nick himself, has since fell from grace even among the lowlifes who supported him. There will be another, sadly. The point I was making is that the name you use on here matters not one iota.

Bonzo and Nigel. The philanthropist and human rights abuser were one and the same person. The former does not excuse the latter. Even Afolf (see, I do learn, John:-) ) had some redeeming features.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:33 AM

CRIMINAL DAMAGE IS CRIMINAL DAMAGE

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:58 AM

Yes, criminal damage is criminal damage and groups like the suffragettes made extensive use of it.   Sometimes, it seems, politicians need such things to accept people with limited or no rights are entitled to them. That is true in many countries, not just the UK.

It is a fundamental part of the UK legal system that the juries weigh up all the evidence and then decide. If they acquit, they acquit. There are plenty of examples where juries decided the law was inappropriate to the circumstance, or misapplied or in some other way 'wrong'. It can even be an inherently 'bad' law in the eyes of the public while the lawmakers think it fine. If the lawmakers are out of step, expect lots of acquittals, whatever the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:27 AM

I guess you didn't read the link I posted, Bonzo. I didn't think you would but, fortunately, the jury in this case disagreed with you. DMcG has also explained it now. Hopefully it will eventually sink in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:34 AM

Criminal damage is criminal damage all right, but they were acquitted by a jury of that charge. The defence argument was that the continuing presence of the statue, despite years of campaigning to get it taken down, was tantamount to a hate crime. The argument persuaded the jury. Grumbling about jury verdicts is fine and dandy but that's as far as it should go unless a miscarriage of justice (which means that the law has been subverted) is suspected. That has not happened in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:44 AM

It was irrelevant who Colston was and the case was one of straightforward criminal damage.

The verdict cannot be overturned, but hopefully the case will be referred to the Court of Appeal for clarification of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 08:04 AM

"the case was one of straightforward criminal damage."

And the jury acquitted them of that crime. Which means the jury found was not criminal damage within the law, which is what counts.

As for thinking a retrial is needed, that smacks soooo much of the accusations that Remain voters wanted to keep having referendums until the got the result they wanted ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 08:10 AM

We'll see!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 08:36 AM

"As for thinking a retrial is needed, that smacks soooo much of the accusations that Remain voters wanted to keep having referendums until the got the result they wanted ..."

As far as I aware a retrial is not a possibility. They may want to get a clarification of the law in order to avoid similar outcomes at future trials. That might be easier said than done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 09:40 AM

You are right, Rain Dog. I tried to express it in a way that distinguished between the wish for a retrial - and there are plenty of comments about that - and the fact that that is not possible under English Law. It sounds like I did not fully succeed in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

Making this a music thread

I see your true colours :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 11:40 AM

There's a good read in the Observer today (you can google it) which articulates very well the alarming extent of the Tories' threat to the rule of law. The Observer view on Tories’ questioning of Colston verdict

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 12:28 PM

It is a good read and very worrying :-(

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/09/observer-view-tories-questioning-colston-verdict

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 12:53 PM

Of course there can be a retrial. Under suitable conditions.

Anyone who claims that this cannot happen, and that the decision of the jury is sacrosanct is obviously unaware of the way the rule of law works.

It may be that there cannot be a retrial without new evidence being brought, but retrials (even where there has been a jury verdict) do happen in this country.

Some people found guilty of murder (by a jury) have even had retrials.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 01:24 PM

Retrials are usually instigated by the defendant. This will not happen in this case. The case for a retrial would have to be brought about by the legislature and for that to happen they would have to have a good reason. How do you think it would be justified? Because someone in the government doesn't like the verdict? Because there was some technical flaw in the procedure? I don't think any of that is likely. Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 02:15 PM

Dave,
No matter how likely, or not, a retrial is, anyone claiming that a jury decision cannot be reviewed is wrong. Do you disagree with that statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:32 PM

The judge may overrule a jury's verdict, but this hardly ever happens. A not guilty verdict by a jury can't be challenged by the prosecution or by anyone else. A guilty verdict may be challenged by the convicted party and taken to appeal. If it's felt by the judge that there's been a mistrial, well that's different. That has not happened in this case. You or I may "review" a verdict, Nigel, but no-one has the power to intervene to change that verdict. What we are discussing here is right-wing Tory Party petulance at a verdict they don't like. No doubt the same cabal would have stood up for Colston himself had he been on trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:35 PM

"You or I may 'review' a not guilty verdict" is what I meant to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:38 PM

It doesn't matter whether I agree or not, Nigel. A retrial in this case is extremely unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 04:39 PM

The case can be reviewed. The verdict cannot be amended, as the Attorney General herself said.

Obviously if there is new evidence, a new trial can take place. That is not what is being talked about in the petition on change.org, which is demanding a retrial because the signatories think the verdict is wrong. It is not based on new evidence.

Given that the defendants admitted their action but the jury decided it did not constitute criminal damage, it is hard to see what such evidence could be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:44 PM

It doesn't matter whether I agree or not, Nigel. A retrial in this case is extremely unlikely.
Basically what I said. "Extremely unlikely" is not the same as "Impossible"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:47 PM

Steve Shaw:
The judge may overrule a jury's verdict, but this hardly ever happens. A not guilty verdict by a jury can't be challenged by the prosecution or by anyone else. A guilty verdict may be challenged by the convicted party and taken to appeal. If it's felt by the judge that there's been a mistrial, well that's different. That has not happened in this case. You or I may "review" a verdict, Nigel, but no-one has the power to intervene to change that verdict.
Surely if as you say "a judge may feel there's been a mistrial" then yes, there may be need for reconsideration.

I am just arguing against all those who claim that, come what may, the decision must stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 05:49 PM

Dave The Gnome:
It doesn't matter whether I agree or not, Nigel. A retrial in this case is extremely unlikely.

Yes, I agree. It is unlikely, but not impossible, as some have claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that the judge would have quibbled with the verdict by now had he (she?) been minded to do so.

I think, and you won't agree, Nigel, that we should see this unseemly episode for what it is: a bunch of Tories who feel aggrieved at a verdict that poked the establishment in the eye, rather forgetting all the illegality of the actions of their own leader, of Cummings, and of a motley bunch of their MPs who didn't think that it was so bad to party illegally whilst hundreds of people were dying every day in the middle of a lockdown. In a dark time, the eye begins to see... [Theodore Roethke]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:16 PM

Steve Shaw:
I'm pretty sure that the judge would have quibbled with the verdict by now had he (she?) been minded to do so.

I think, and you won't agree, Nigel, that we should see this unseemly episode for what it is: a bunch of Tories who feel aggrieved at a verdict that poked the establishment in the eye, rather forgetting all the illegality of the actions of their own leader, of Cummings, and of a motley bunch of their MPs who didn't think that it was so bad to party illegally whilst hundreds of people were dying every day in the middle of a lockdown. In a dark time, the eye begins to see... [Theodore Roethke]

That looks like a classic depiction of 'whataboutism'!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 22 - 06:27 PM

It's more a case of hypocrisy, I'd say. There isn't enough white emulsion at Homebase to paint all those sepulchres white...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:34 AM

I am unashamedly stealing this from an online friend who posted it to Facebook the other day

Don’t get me wrong; we’ve had some pretty dodgy governments in the past. Lloyd George was no saint, using honours to get things he wanted from the rich and powerful; Harold Wilson had similar tendencies. Lord knows, John Major’s rabble were often caught with their snouts in the trough of public funds, and Blair’s lies over Iraq will always overshadow the good things done with the NHS, minimum wage and SureStart.
The current government is different. I can’t think of another administration where corruption is so commonplace that it has become the standard way of transacting government business. The really staggering part of this is that the Tory party don’t see anything wrong in corruption. Acting solely in the interests of themselves, their friends, family and political donors is simply the way they view the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:55 AM

I realise that to stay on both the right side of the writs and within what can be proven, all the press is reporting that Johnson's Principal Private Secretary sent the email inviting people to drinks in the garden of number 10.

But that he did so without any consultation with Johnson is not an argument I find credible.

Cressida Dick and co have a real problem on their hands now. They can declare again they do not act on infringements of the covid restrictions retrospectively, but there are very grave risks of civil disobedience if they do that. The Tories would be well advised to remember the Poll Tax Riots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 08:46 AM

Marvellous piece from Tom Peck in The Independent

It would be even truer were it not so tragic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 10:45 AM

I'm just checking in to confirm proof of life..

I'm still alive..

.. and you lot are still posting..

so must still be breathing, despite the government's best efforts to cull Social undesirables and deplorables..

Fair enough..


Happy New year !!!...

pfr...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 02:38 PM

Yay! Glad to see you PFR. I was getting worried. Happy anything I have missed and hoping all is OK in Scrumpyshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 22 - 08:11 PM

Ditto, pfr!

Oi, I can't keep up with all this partying!

He won't go, will he...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 02:12 PM

He didn't know if was a party. He didn't know he was breaking the rules. This man has access to the big red button.

Be afraid. Very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 02:40 PM

I don't worry about the Red Button too much, but I think it possible he could trigger Article 16 whatever the effects might be, just to try to get the spotlight somewhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 04:37 PM

Just to be clear. Article 16 was already triggered by the EU. But then they changed their mind: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 04:53 PM

I'd rather have a PM who resists pressure to keep schools shut in March, opens fully in July despite warnings of 300k/day cases & the "Johnson variant", opens schools in Sept, refuses to do Plan B in Oct, & only does masking in Dec, but had wine in his garden. But that's just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 05:01 PM

That is disputed, as you will know, because the EU has a complex approval procedure. But even if we accept that they did, it matters not a jot. The text of Article 16 talks about actions as small in scope and of limited duration as possible with a view to keeping as much of the protocol in operation as possible. So an invocation lasting a few hours would be not problem at all and fully in keeping with the protocol. In fact the possibility multiple invocations of Artucle 16 over time is clearly part of the safeguards.

Some of the Brexiteer wing seem to think Article 16 is some sort of legal hand grenade that demolishes the protocol once and for all. It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 05:09 PM

For anyone who hasn't actually read it:


Article 16
Safeguards

1. If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the
functioning of this Protocol.

2. If a safeguard measure taken by the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, in accordance with paragraph 1 creates an imbalance between the rights and obligations under this Protocol, the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may take such proportionate rebalancing measures as are strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol.

3. Safeguard and rebalancing measures taken in accordance with paragraphs 1 and 2 shall be governed by the procedures set out in Annex 7 to this Protocol

Short and to the point. And, as in my last post notice especially:

Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration

and

Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 07:44 PM

Well, Bonzo, Mussolini did some amazing things for Italy and was very popular - for a while. My, he even made the trains run on time! I wonder whether his favourite song was "Leaning on a Lamp-post"...

Just wondering whether Boris's favourite song might be one of Simon and Garfunkel's (with apologies to them):

"I am just a rich boy [SORRY!]
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest...

Lie la lie, lie la lie la lie la lie
Lie la lie, lie la lie la lie la lie, la la lie la lie..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 22 - 08:50 PM

hey that's parody :^/

All that is needed are 54 letters of no confidence from his MP 'friends'.
"I didn't know it was a party" is a piss poor defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 03:58 AM

It will only take 54 letters, Donuel, but getting them is not that easy. After Johnson's performance yesterday, everything hinges on Sue Gray's report. If she says the March 20th event was not a party, the general public will look at that, look at the text of the email, and conclude the report is a whitewash. That may well get the PM through to at least the May elections, but I would expect many MPs to be very nervous of how their voters would react.

I think what she needs to do, from the government's point of view, is to build a case that the event was a party and Johnson was remiss in attending, but his error in thinking it a working event is plausible. She also needs to demonstrate somehow that the 'we' who thought a party a good idea did not include the Prime Minister. But it must always be remembered that ignorance is no defence against the law, so that is a very shaky platform to stand on.

I read reports that there are some concerns Johnson could veto the report. That would seem very counter-productive to me: it would convince everyone there was something to hide and the MPs could anticipate fury from their constituents. The same would apply if the report was redacted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 05:36 AM

Well, apart from the fact that there's the foul smell of a whitewash coming up, I'm with Nick Robinson (rare in my case) regarding his line of questioning to that Boris lackey/looks like a spiv/talks like a spiv/IS a spiv Brandon Lewis this morning. We have the facts. We don't need to wait for any more "facts." Johnson and the stooges who are wheeled out have all been briefed to trot out the "Sue Gray" defence. Poor old Sue is just about as "independent" as my left foot is independent of my left leg. Boris is her boss. During her "investigations" she will be told precisely what Johnson and his advisers want her to be told, and, if perchance she produces an adverse report, Johnson can veto it in any case.

I'm sure that Starmer would love to see Johnson stay exactly where he is, but of course he can't say that. A different leader (Truss would be a dead cert, I reckon) would be far more likely to win the next election than Johnson. And she's keeping her head down. Have you noticed?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 06:41 AM

She looked frightened to death at PMQs yesterday

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 10:25 AM

She's God-awful. Our best hope would be that she turns out to be another Theresa May. Starmer did a half-decent job yesterday. I still think elections are generally lost by the incumbent, not won by the opposition.

It's a long time to the next election and Johnson will have a massive pandemic-whacking success behind him. The trail of damage he's leaving will be forgotten. He's good at making that happen. We could still be doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

I imagine the front bench Tries will be quite pleased were able to wear face masks while Boris was mocking us all with his pseudo-apology.

One bit of luck for Mr Johnson when the Prince Andrew scandal has erupted at this point to give the tabloids something else to get their teeth into.   

It appears the Grey report won't be released to the public. It's for Boris Johnson's eyes, and what we are due to get is a summary of the findings supplied by…Boris Johnson.

The sneaky thing is that Johnson's porky about how he believed this was not a party but a work event, however implausible it is, cannot be disproved, and that is his figleaf when it comes to the accusation that he lied when he said he believed that there had been no parties at number 10. Lie stands on lie. And his colleagues and supporters line up to add more lies, as they pretend that they actually believe what Boris said in his "apology".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 03:00 PM

Prince Andrew is stripped of all titles royal and military except son of the Queen.
E's jus good ol Andy now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 03:22 PM

A magnificent performance from johnson on PMQ yesterday, marred continually by the incomprehensible babble from some regional MPs - from whom, it appeared the bitching record had stuck !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 04:18 PM

It seems that Sue Gray was invited to the May 20 garden party...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 04:56 PM

If that is trueit means she knew about it, and even if she did not go she ought to have informed on it. I¡d have thought this should disqualify he as qualifiedro make an independent report.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 22 - 05:03 PM

So Steve, what's your source for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 02:51 PM

In fact it sounds unlikely, since at tgat time Sue Gray was working in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 03:16 PM

One of Johnson’s Brexit-Fruitcake MP-buddies, the oily and obnoxious Andrew Bridgen, is now calling for his resignation…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/13/boris-johnson-delivered-brexit-vaccines-left-deliver-resignation/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 04:30 PM

The downside to Boris's political disintegration is that his replacement is very likely to be even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 10:53 PM

Everyone can surely agree that things would be so much worse, in every conceivable way, were that Jeremy Corbin in charge...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 02:54 AM

ABCD :-D

Bonzo, I thought you had left?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:09 AM

"Everyone can surely agree that things would be so much worse, in every conceivable way, were that Jeremy Corbin in charge..."

Please enlighten us with every decision Corbyn would have made, and the evidence that you clearly have which us mere mortals are not privy to over the last 10 years. As far as I recollect, he has not been in government. Neither he has ever been a minister or Prime Minister.

As far as Johnson is concerned, his mismanagement, negligence and corruption is a matter of public record.

I am not a fan of Corbyn myself, but if you are going to make sweeping statements, then we would all like to see your evidence. It is like saying, for example, I am personally corrupt as I did not make sure that johnson did not break social distancing rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:39 AM

I could be wrong but I think ABCD was being ironic. 'Corbyn would have been worse' is the excuse of those who voted for the corrupt set of shysters that call themselves a government

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 10:42 AM

"mismanagement, negligence and corruption"

Let's see -

Vaccine roll out:

Total – first dose
52,071,960

Total – second dose
47,866,176

Total – booster or third dose
36,295,768

Up to 4 Nov 2021 — £28.1 billion has been paid in SEISS grants

Up to September 2021, the total value of claims made to the CJRS reached £70 billion

Thank goodness for "mismanagement, negligence and corruption"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 11:41 AM

That addresses none of the mismanagement, negligence and corruption claim, Bonzo. The NHS has been mismanaged and neglected to the point where it can no longer cope. That is a matter of record as is the corruption of the current set of con men running the country. Even Hitler got some things right but that does not excuse all else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 12:39 PM

So the LibDems are putting forward a vote of no confidence in Johnson.

Which is probably the only action in existence to stop MPs writing the the 1922 committee, to get most of them to rally round Johnson and, I believe, if he retains the confidence there cannot be another confidence vote for a year.

With one bound the LibDems set Johnson free ... again.

Very well done there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:43 AM

No words for me John? I feel left out! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Sorry Dave, I was busy with my matitudinal ablutions!

You’re absolutely correct, of course. And just to clarify my point for those who are clearly addicted to Tory Kool-aid, the ‘NHS Track & Trace’ system, which was an abject failure and cost £21 billion, was a government project, not an NHS operation. And the ‘Government’s Vaccination scheme’ has been organised and managed, very successfully indeed, by the NHS.

Such is the insidious nature of the Johnson Gang’s Propaganda Campaign - something so simple and so slight as switching ‘Government’ and ‘NHS’ in order to blur the lines of responsibility for success and failure.

No wonder I swear at them - they’d make the Pope swear! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 08:11 AM

And one thing I’m absolutely certain of is that there are many far more serious and important issues we should be discussing than the rights and wrongs of my use of a single expletive. If my saying ‘fucking’ in one post is the biggest problem perceived by a few posters here, they really do need to get their heads out of the clouds and their feet back on the ground. Jesus wept!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

Man, when you guys go off-topic, you REALLY go off topic.

In my opinion, this whole thread exemplifies the fighting mentality we're trying to eliminate, and should be closed...
because folks can't stick to a subject, or be polite, or not eschew personal issues in favor of...what is it this threads is supposed to be about?

I suggest turning the course of this around, and getting back to politics.

Please

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:35 AM

Some of the mud-slinging was cleared out.

So what is the story with Harry and Meghan not allowed to hire their own police protection if they're in the UK? The royal family isn't going to offer protection. We see news that Harry is taking this to court - so what is it about the private security business that the royal family (who live with a protective detail 24/7) can tell someone else they aren't supposed to hire? Are in fact prohibited?

Harry, who simply separated his life from that of the rest of the royal family, seems to be treated as badly as Andrew, who is being investigated for a crime. Worse, since Andrew probably still has protection.

Is this political?

AND JUST REINTRODUCE your political topics, Steve. Don't go on a rant about moderation. We can all live without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:49 AM

Anyway - back to politics. where do we start?

(1) Proposals to use the military to push back people seeking safety and asylum?
(2) Progress of government legislation of proposals for suppressing thousands of votes in order to prevent 2 or 3 fraudulent votes when the whole idea of enfranchisement is to encourage rather than discourage people from voting?
(3) Defeat in the House of Lords of the controversial policing bill?
(4) Johnson today stating that he was not clear what the rules he passed as Prime Minister meant in terms of holding parties while thousand of people faced restrictions on who can attend funerals - with reference to the parents who had to socially distance while attending their child's funeral.
(5)The price of milk (2 pints) goin up from 80p to 95p - 18.75% and how much of this is due to loss of EU farm subsidies?
(6) Raising of the energy cap by about 40%?

That's all I can think of for this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:01 PM

With regards to the Royal Family, the military, police and security services are charges with their safety. H&M (not the clothing store) have offered to pay their wy towards accessing the same services.

Private security companies would be problematic as they would need to have access to all premises for the whole royal family = tht would in itself be a security risk as they would not necessarily have the same level of vetting as the royal households' secirity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 01:38 PM

We could start by ditching off-topic nonsense about a pair of sidelined ex-royals and discussing instead our serious political issues, such as the standoff between Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, which could conceivably play a huge part in the hoped-for downfall of our resident PM liar and charlatan. After all, it is supposedly a thread about UK political topics. I guess that UK people may be the ones in pole position to best prioritise them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 01:49 PM

I think the policing bill is probably the most relevant but to discuss it may be seen as protesting...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:09 PM

Labour List sees that as a resounding victory for Labour in the Lords. Unfortunately, proposals for mandatory voter ID and new powers for ministers over the independent Electoral Commission have been passed. Another deliberate blow to our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:35 PM

It sounds like Trump's GOP party has some influence over there (if you can't win fairly, block everyone from voting so only your supporters can vote, or oversee the elections in such a way that you can cancel a lot of votes if you think you can get away with it).

The question about Harry and Meghan is based upon what is in the news here - we have most recently learned that Andrew is no longer acting as one of the Senior Royals, Johnson is trying to talk his way out trouble for going to a party during a COVID lockdown period, and Harry is having more trouble than either of those two bad actors, simply for emancipating himself from the royal framework. Andrew still lives where he does, has security, and Johnson is (for now) still prime minister. Harry appears to be shit out of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:44 PM

SRS, I suspect that many (most?) Americans don’t understand that a significant minority of British people don’t share the American love-affair with our Royal family, and their family-wars are of little consequence to them. Unlike your president, the Queen is not involved in our political system, except as an advisor and confidante to the PM and rubber-stamper of Acts of Parliament.

Personally, even though I marginally prefer the Queen as a benevolent, non-political Head of State over the concept of a US-style President with political power, I’d be happy to see the rule of the Monarchy end with her death or abdication, to be replaced with a Presidency along the lines of the Irish model - a ceremonial position with no involvement in politics.

I certainly have little or no interest in the wider Royal Circus. Harry and Meghan need to lie in the bed they’ve made for themselves AFAIC and, like any other citizen, Andrew needs to face, and answer in court, the charges that have been made against him. Otherwise, they amount to little more than a convenient distraction from issues the government would prefer us not to know about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:08 PM

"...a convenient distraction..."

Absolutely spot-on. And what Johnson & co. want us to do is emote over the royals' shabby goings-on and stop focussing on the partying. Do understand that, Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

You live with a monarchy relic that isn't present here, so it is of interest from this side of the pond. The monarchy is used to attract people to visit the UK like the castle is used to attract visitors to Disneyland. And your politics are frankly so mangled with complications that most of us don't understand how it works. The closest we get to a vote of confidence is our regular elections (which the GOP is trying to tamper with.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:56 PM

If that was aimed at me, all I'm trying to do, after my rollicking from Jeri, was to get the thread back on topic. The royals' rather disreputable doings are, at best, peripheral to politics in this country. They are, of course, on the other hand, tabloid heaven, which is perhaps what you'd prefer to indulge in. If we are permitted just one politics thread, then I think we have far more important and urgent things to chat about. You could, of course, start a royals thread, which you may get away with because our royals clearly have, arguably, more appeal across the ocean than they do here.

By the way, Maggie, as for attracting tourists, locations relating to our royals seldom make it into our top twenty tourist attractions. It's far more about our long history, our national monuments, cathedrals, ancient cities and the rest, and our culture. The royals' role in attracting tourists is received-wisdom myth. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 06:12 PM

SRS the monarchy apart from the Queen's residual powers, or perhaps we could better say duties, is not really about politics. It is arguably more to do with celebrity. Like your Kardashians but a bit posher. So yes largely a distraction. Apart from that the important folk (not for me as I am not a royalist) are the direct heirs. Charles - William - George. The political aspect being they are in line to eventually take over the duties of state. The rest is largely celebrity. Harry is no longer a working royal through his own choice. So his situation now is a story of a celeb. Not politics. He can bring his own security team when he visits or hire another if he wants. He feels he needs the official police security and says he's willing to pay. However that is still taking resources away from what they would be doing otherwise! To protect a celebrity couple and their family. I am not sure they would have the sympathy of most Brits. Could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 06:46 PM

Boris Johnson (or his faithful lackeys) is talking of scrapping the BBC licence fee (I won't even try to explain to the yanks what that means, except to say that the 43.5p per day (about 58 cents) licence fee gives us unlimited advertising-free access to the BBC's renowned television and radio output as well as supporting some wonderful symphony and light-music orchestras, the Proms season every year, the superb iPlayer and BBC Sounds catch-up services, and more), of sending gunboats into the Channel to deter refugees from landing on our sceptred (sceptic?) isle and of cancelling all our covid-19 restrictions as early as next week (I might actually agree with that one). He's also making it harder for poorer people to vote and is curtailing the right to peaceful protests that are too noisy or a bit inconvenient to people driving gas-guzzling Chelsea Tractors on our motorways.

All very populist, all very distracting from the terrible self-imposed lockdown-busting mess and tissue of lies he's currently enmeshed in. Nothing is too valuable to be wrecked as long as he can save his own skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 07:08 PM

"To identify Britain’s 100 Most Popular Tourist Attractions, CEOWORLD magazine reviewed data from the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions (ALVA), one of the UK’s leading tourism organisations."

In their list of 100 (I had to choose a year before the pandemic influenced numbers, which in this case was 2017), the only one with a direct connection to the current royals was Kensington Palace at no 57. You could, I suppose, claim connections for the Tower of London, Hampton Court, etc., though those historical sites would still be attracting tourists had the royals been abolished 200 years ago!

There are other lists, of course, but this at least gives the flavour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:15 AM

The idea that you'd base your method of gvt on how tourists would view it always amuses me. Anyway as Steve says the tourist angle is much overplayed. According to Visit Scotland the only tourist attraction in the top 20 visited attractions which has anything to do with the modern royalty is the Royal Yacht Britannia and that is only at #20 and in truth its presence or not is unlikely to make any significant impact to overall tourist numbers in Edinburgh. There are much bigger attractions in the city. I was kind of surprised Holyrood Palace wasn't in the top 20 but again I think its association with the modern monarchy isn't the main factor in its pull anyway. It is the history of the place that attracts people on the whole. Versailles is still a huge pull in France even though their monarchy is long gone!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:59 AM

I will just largely agree with recent posts. Since 1688 and the arrival of William of Orange, virtually all political significant power has gone from the Royals: what is left is influence, in the main. For me, they fall firmly on the circus side of the 'bread and circuses' tag. Because they have a symbolic role, they do occasionally interact with real politics - Edward and Wallis for example - but 99% they are as relevant as whatever the current popular TV soap opera is.

I am a 'neutral' on the question of retention of the Royals. I think some sort of symbolic head of the country is needed, but whether it is a monarch or an elected role doesn't worry me greatly. (Given some of the horrors we have elected to important roles, there may be an advantage to a monarchy in that any disasters in the role are not the fault of the people.)

So when I want to talk about politics I am only concerned with elected officials, people they appoint without elections and how the decisions they take affect us. Together, of course, with those seeking election, seeking those roles etc. Not Royalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

Me too, but you wouldn't know it... ;-)

Looks like the Tories are doing the only that the Tories do best - getting out the long knives and closing in on their leader. Remember the fall of Maggie Thatcher, largely brought about by quiet remarks from Geoffrey Howe (of whom it had previously been said by Denis Healey, somewhat mistakenly, that debating with him was like being savaged by a dead sheep). Is there a Sir Geoffrey in the house?

Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows...Truss...Sunak...Gove... Maybe the modest Jeremy Hunt (slightly unfairly said by some to be the Cockney rhyming slang of what they regard as his more appropriate name, unfortunately exposed by Jim Naughtie's amusing slip of the tongue) will turn out to be the new John Major... Any bets?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

I left out a thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:21 AM

Just reading a 2009 paper co-authored by Liz Truss.
There are just some of the section heading from Chapter 5:
Work, Pensions and Health – cutting programmes and entitlements
* Restructure pensions
* Abolish mandatory retirement age of 65
* Remove gimmicky pension add-ons (things like winter fuel allowance)
* Simplify out of work benefits
* Target child benefit
Health
* Cut capital programme
* End public health campaigns
* Introduce user charges for GPs
Just so you know what you have to look forward to if she becomes Johnson's replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:40 AM

"Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows..."

Exactly. It is highly likely that will elect a tory to lead their party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM

Just watched PMQs and I'm wondering whether David Davis is the new Geoffrey Howe...

Another lethal blow was the defection of the Bury South MP to Labour. That's my original home constituency. I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card. Nasty piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:56 AM

Watching PMQs this lunch-time, I do have to wonder if members of the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and those who voted Tory in the 2019 GE, have begun to understand the innate truth of the old adage, ‘When you elect a clown, you end up with a circus’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:08 AM

I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card

Yes, that struck me as well. If that is how they intend to fight for Bury, I don't think it will work this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM

True, unless they want to stand on the platform that the tory party fielded an anti-semitic candidate in 2019.

I wish that johnson would stop dragging up EMA. As we were part of the EMA up to December 31st 2020, and we were still able to develop our own vaccination programme under EU regulations when will the speaker apoligise to the people of the UK for allowing johnson to lie to the UK population week in week out? Or is it a simple case that the three-quarters of a million first vaccinations reported by the NHS in December 2020 were a lie, and anyone who says they were vaccinate din that time are liars?

If, in the future, being outside the EMA this means that it will be easier for pharmaceutical companies to get medicines onto chemist shelves quicker, which shortcuts in medicine standards approval. I suppose, for example, another tragedy such as thalidomide is a price worth paying if tory donors can get rich quicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM

What do we think of Christian Wakeford? A good move for Labour or rats leaving a sinking ship?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:24 PM

Let's give him a whirl, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:44 PM

It’s a lot better than if it had been the other way round, Dave!

I see the Tory cowboys are drawing the wagons into a circle around their beleaguered leader (hopefully soon to be ex-leader), and are loading up their weapons with ‘Anti-Semitic Labour’ bullets - some Tory puppet firing off the first salvo post-PMQs today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:05 PM

Has anyone else noticed the 'argument by soundbite' tactic that Bozo is employing more and more? I suppose 'Get Brexit Done' won him an election but does he really need to use daft statements like "we delivered while they dithered" and "we vaccinated while they vacillated"? He needs a new scriptwriter!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM

Sorry Steve, I hadn’t noticed that you’d already noted the Tory Lackey’s resorting to the ‘Labour Anti-semitism’ nonsense after PMQs. I have to say I’m quite pleased he stooped so low - it’s an indication that they’re running scared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 04:01 PM

De nada!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

The better news is that the odious Tommy Robinson may get his comeuppance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:13 AM

It seems that in the short term Christian Wakefield could have given Johnson a bit of breathing space. Johnson is clearly determined to dig in and hold his ground. I think the best outcome for Labour would be for Johnson to face a vote of no confidence from the Tories and win it narrowly. It would still be a fatal wound. I don't think that will happen. He's going to grind away and dig in and get away with all this. It's a long time until 2024. Of course, Sue Gray could change all this, but, as he's her boss...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

He won’t resign - not only his immensely-wealthy puppeteers, but his own huge ego, won’t allow it - and I can’t imagine for one second that Sue Gray will cross her boss. Tory MPs, in the main, know he’s the only reason they walked away with the 2019, and thus was responsible for them winning or holding their seats, so they won’t push for a VONC in sufficient numbers. I’m sure we’re stuck with him until 2024 at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:03 AM

Christian Wakefield:
The Labour Party are welcome to him. His departure seems to have somewhat stifled Conservative action about Boris.

To quote the Manchester Evening News

In September 2020, he presented and backed the Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation) Bill - which was sponsored by Conservative MP Anthony Mangnall.
The bill would enable constituents to recall their MP and call a by-election if they 'voluntarily change their political party affiliation'.

Young Labour said in a Tweet: "The Labour Party must uphold Bury South members’ right to choose their own Labour candidate and constituents should be able to reassess their MP."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:34 AM

My opinion (recorded on another site) was that if Johnson did not go on 17-19 because of feedback from the MPs constituents, he is probably safe until the May elections. Gray's report will lead to some more letters going in, but I doubt if it will be enough to be decisive. A lot of financial flak will hit people in April, and I don't think the potential replacements for Johnson want to be on the receiving end of that, so they are happy to wait it out.

I heard one of the government spokesmen saying what people cared about were things like the UK having the fastest GDP growth in it the G7. Stuff and nonsense, in my view. They care about the cost of petrol. The cost of gas and electricity. The price of food. Whether their wages cover the month (or week) without having to make significant choices like food or heating. Abstractions like GDP and whether G7 is more significant than other comparisons are from a different world to their experiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:08 AM

Reports on BBC News right now of rebel Tory MPs being intimidated/threatened by their party to withdraw their support for a VONC against Johnson. Intimidation allegedly includes threats to withdraw finance/support for projects in the MP’s constituencies.

A lovely lot, aren’t they? NOT,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:47 AM

Nigel might be very surprised to learn that I agree with the principle proposed in the Manchester Evening News article that, when an MP ‘crosses the floor’ and changes his/her party-affiliation, there should be a by-election in their constituency. For the past fifty years or more, the inclusion of party-affiliation on election polling slips has meant that votes are probably cast less on the basis of the individual, and far more on the basis of the party under whose banner they are standing for election. It seems to me to be only fair that, having elected the candidate of a specific party to serve for a full term, constituents should be given the opportunity to vote again if the elected Member decides to transfer to a different side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM

A bit of sour grapes, Nigel?

Many people in Labour will have mixed feelings about Christian Wakefield. But his defection was no sudden decision. He's been unhappy with Tory policies for a while (a mind-changer, definitely, on some) and has been contemplating this move for months. He's also worked closely with Barry Gardiner, who likes him and who encouraged him to join Labour. He's a Lancashire lad, from Burnley, hardly the most affluent area of the country, though his forays as a Tory in local government politics in the area centred more around the rural (Tory) parts around Pendle. I'm confident that he'll find that his true, natural home will be in Labour.

I know that constituency better than any other (as Dave will know). My mum was brought up in Whitefield, in a street that would have been just behind Morrisons, and went to school in Prestwich at Our Lady Of Grace. My grandad and uncle both played in Besses brass band, and grandad and grandma lived in a tiny council house in Whitefield. I was born and bred in Radcliffe, where my mum and dad lived all their 67 years of married life until my dad died in 2018, so I was up there an awful lot even though I moved away half a century ago. I watched the awful decline of Radcliffe from being a bustling and vibrant mill town with an amazing sense of community into a sorry, hollowed-out backwater with no secondary schools and just about the dowdiest town centre you've ever seen, made worse by being sliced in two by a huge arterial road, all-in-all a typical plight of many a northern town ignored by politicians.


On the day of his defection, Wakeford wrote, "the policies of the Conservative government that you [Johnson] lead are doing nothing to help the people of my constituency and indeed are only making the struggles they face on a daily basis worse." He wrote that he had no doubt his constituents would best benefit from his "joining a party that genuinely has their interests at heart."

I strongly feel, knowing the area as I do, that he's the sort of MP that's sorely needed there. As long as he remains sincere. A big if...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:38 AM

There are some really daft arguments on radio talk shows at times. Today's cracker

"Well, we all make mistakes. We should just let him get on with his job"

I wonder if he would say that about a surgeon who cut the wrong leg off?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 09:49 AM

Dave: Talking about 'daft arguments':
Apparently cutting off the wrong leg does not debar you from being a surgeon: BBC News 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 10:47 AM

Well I never! Thanks Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

Which reminds me...See joke thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:18 PM

Don't try that here, Steve. You have not got a leg to stand on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:36 PM

As with Dud applying for the job of Tarzan, even though he had only the one leg ("a unidexter"), with Pete as the interviewer:

Pete:
Well, Mr. Spiggott, need I point out to you where your deficiency lies as regards landing the role?

Dud:
Yes, I think you ought to.

Pete:
Need I say without overmuch emphasis that it is in the leg division that you are deficient.

Dud:
The leg division?

Pete:
Yes, the leg division, Mr. Spiggott. You are deficient in it to the tune of one. Your right leg I like. I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role. That's what I said when I saw you come in. I said "A lovely leg for the role." I've got nothing against your right leg. The trouble is - neither have you....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM

The Ghanaian footballer Thomas Partey, who was sent off for Arsenal tonight against Liverpool, has been dubbed by the Liverpool Echo and lots of others "Thomas Work-Event."

Liverpool beat Arsenal 2-0 on aggregate to go through the Carabao Cup final (we used to call it the League Cup), by the way. Can't think why I mentioned that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:41 AM

I think it's probably legal to sell alcohol anywhere now it is classed as office supplies :-D

Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 05:00 AM

I did! Quite a moment was that. If I were 40 years younger and Scottish I think I might be joining the SNP... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM

Dave (tG):
Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

At least Fiona followed it up by saying "I know we have Conservatives in the audience" otherwise I would have assumed that they had an all Left audience.
The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

You may be correct Nigel and if you are surely conservatives supporters could claim to be labour supporters just as easily as labour supporters could claim to be conservative supporters.

Just saying like ....................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM

Nigel, chief whip for Scottish Conservatives, was on the panal and even he does not support Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM

Sorry Nigel. I know you are not chief Whip! Stephen Kerr is and I missed out his name. Mea Culpa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM

Raggytash: Yes, it can work both ways.

It could also be that members of the audience did not wish to speak out and be identified. It's a common occurrence, to avoid vilification. The UK often has a 'silent majority' which is why pollsters can predict elections/referendums one way, but, following a secret ballot, the outcome confounds them.
The Conservatives insisted on proper secret ballots for 'industrial action' to prevent the old-fashioned 'show of hands' intimidating those at union meetings from showing their true feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months. Tories never, ever lie about anything. Why, we know that "conservatism" and "integrity" are actual similes!

Don't we, Nigel?

I was actually in a Question Time audience once. Before we were selected we were grilled over the telephone about our circumstances, our views on all sorts and our political affiliations or allegiances. The panel was Shami Chakrabarti, Margaret ******* Hodge, that LibDem MP who had to leave in disgrace over a rent-boy scandal - Mark Oaten, that was him - Liam ******* Fox and some right-wing bellend who once justified waterboarding at Gitmo. My lad, in his early twenties at the time, kept elbowing me in the ribs to stick my hand up. It worked and Bumblebee picked me out. So I made an extremely boring comment during an extremely boring topic about whether the Lords should be elected. Three million people saw me doing it. It's been downhill ever since...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

I was on Question Tume once as well, though I did not ask a question (which would have been about the cost of repairs to the Houses of Parliament
)

There was a fairly elaborate interview beforehand, as Steve reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM

Steve: "The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months.

If you had read the comment immediately above yours you would see that I had already agreed with Raggytash that "It works both ways!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM

It seems there is a strong call for a bye election in Bury. That would be a real problem for Labour. Their original candidate only lost by about 400 votes. It is reasonable to assume Christian Wakeford would lose some votes by being seen as untrustworthy or a turncoat, to quote some of the accusations. So who should they have as their candidate? Tricky...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

I don't think there will be a byelection even if there is a strong call for it. Just my opinion of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I hope not too. He needs (not necessarily deserves) the chance to show that he's the real deal, a proper fighter for his community, which, for goodness sake, needs a fighter. One of the reasons he crossed was because he couldn't stomach the threat of the whip attacking his community.

If Johnson were to be chucked out and replaced, it wouldn't trigger an election, would it? Yet there's been plenty of chatter about it was Johnson's charisma wot won it... Watch out for double standards here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM

He has probably got them this senior school at least. If there is no sign of it being approved by the next general election, it will certainly be remembered and count against the Conservative candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM

From the Guardian website on Friday:

Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

The Guardian has been told that senior members of the government spread the rumours in parliament after the MP for Bury South crossed the floor on Wednesday.

A Labour source said the party had prepared Wakeford before his defection for the possibility of the Tories or hostile media trying to dig around in his private life.

Well now. That all has to be substantiated. Does it seem within spec to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

From the latest post:
Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Would it be too much to ask that the 'it has been alleged' came at the start of the comment?

This smacks of comments on BBC where a tirade is given against someone, and, at the very end, they add thge word 'allegedly' to try and cover themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM

Take it up with the Grauniad, Nigel. I found the report to be unobjectionable, though corroboration is clearly needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Referring back to the article, I note that the headline of the piece, which I didn't quote, has "allegedly" as its third word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment it loses grammatical correctness and that would have been picked up by you instead, Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

Actually, things such as "it has been alleged" come into a similar category as "experts have found that..." and "it has been claimed...", all prime examples of weasel words. We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:16 AM

The deadline to file UK 2021 tax return and pay any tax due remains 31 January 2022. The penalty waivers will mean that:

1. anyone who cannot file their return by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late filing penalty if they file online by 28 February

2. anyone who cannot pay their Self Assessment tax by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late payment penalty if they pay their tax in full, or set up a Time to Pay arrangement, by 1 April

However - Interest will be payable from 1 February, as usual on any unpaid tax, so it is still better to pay on time if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:23 AM

Dave: If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment yes, they would need to re-write it slightly, such as by adding 'that' after 'alleged'

Steve: We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!
The easiest way to avoid being sued is to quote the truth. 'Weasel words' are only required by those who rush to print without first checking their facts/sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:33 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes

But if you do forget you can carry the £3000- gift exemption forward to next year (but for 1 year only)
Also, if you made no gifts last year (6 April 2020 - 5 April 2021) you can carry that year's exemption forward and gift £6,000- this tax year without affecting inheritance tax.

HMRC Inheritance Tax - Gifts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

It has been alleged that Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Still no better, Nigel. It loses the emphasis of the first where it says "it has been alleged amid growing concerns" etc. Anywho - Here is the headline that you missed which states in big letters, twice, that it is an allegation

Tory whips allegedly tried to smear Christian Wakeford after defection

Exclusive: Allegations emerge of attempts to spread rumours about Bury South MP minutes after he crossed floor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 03:06 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful..

You probably didn't look at the HMRC advice, which appears to be both clear and explicit. Any other 'advice' is based on the HMRC instructions, but may lose something in translation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 04:57 PM

Everywhere I looked, Nigel (and it's been a couple of years and I can't remember exactly), the advice was that you could give £3000 per annum before tax liabilities potentially kicked in, plus a number of gifts not exceeding £250 each, but it was not made clear that this only applied if your assets went beyond the nil rate band. Understand that most of us non-millionaires only have to grapple with this a couple of times, if that, in our lives, and that it's a learning curve every time. I spent hours and hours on this, wondering whether my mum could give all us kids the money from house she'd sold for £125000 after my dad died (she could, no hassle), without a tax liability kicking in. We're not all accountants or people who are genned up on every aspect of tax law. The information on this was extremely difficult to obtain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:53 AM

This seems a strange diversion into personal taxation arising from a comment of Bonzo2Legs, when we had been talking about MPs potentially being 'blackmailed'. Admittedly we only got there after queries about the most aesthetically way of phrasing it, rather than the substance.

The current state of play is that the MP concerned, Christian Wakeford, has told the Sunday Times that the threat came from Gavin WIlliamson, then Education Secretary. Quoting the article:

In October 2020 the footballer Marcus Rashford vented his despair at MPs voting down proposals to extend free school meals during holidays. He was not the only one.

Christian Wakeford, then Conservative MP for Bury South, a few miles north of Rashford’s Manchester United home ground, Old Trafford, was also appalled by the move. The 37-year-old, who had been elected to the Commons the previous year, told friends it was mean-spirited and the opposite of what red wall MPs were elected to do.

Yet rather than voting for the opposition motion on school meals, and against the government, he abstained. His decision was informed by a conversation he had had with a colleague shortly before the vote.

Wakeford says Gavin Williamson, then education secretary, pulled him out of the Members’ Dining Room of the House of Commons and threatened to cancel plans for a new school in his constituency if he did “not vote in one particular way”. He first made the allegation, without identifying the culprit, last week.

Asked today who threatened to scrap the school, he said: “It was Gavin Williamson.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:55 AM

Sorry for the typo reducing Bonzo's legs even further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:11 AM

Two legs on my Bonzo, but he's still posting along.....

Sorry, couldn't resist it......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:14 PM

I see that the Islamophobia that everyone else knew existed in the Tory Party has now surfaced in the mainstream media. Still, could be worse. We could have ended up with Jeremy Corbyn...

LABOUR ANTISEMITISM!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM

I'm certain sure that you're being ironic in making a "sweeping statement" such as that, Dave the Gnome. Amidst all the flotsam, jetsam and swimming rodents surrounding the wreck of the Ship of State, one question occurs to me which I haven't yet heard asked about the various get-togethers in Downing Street; why is it that those who were best informed about the Coronavirus were clearly unconcerned about any consequences of such gatherings, at least with regard to health? Or were they all wearing PPE?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Me? Ironic? Surely not...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:44 PM

The Telegraph (Ok, not impartial) has today (Sunday) quoted a blog from Dominic Cummings (possibly the source of anti-Boris briefings) which sheds a whole new light on 'Partygate':
"Because No10s political and communications operation has imploded, it has failed to explain something very obvious to anybody working there at the time: No10 staff were ENCOURAGED to have meetings in the garden April-August for the obvious reason that we were in a pandemic with an airborne disease and being outside was safer! all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

Adds a new perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM

That does indeed add a new perspective, and shines a - rather unsteady - light on the doings of our superiors, elected or no. "All day every day", is it? No wonder BJ didn't notice there was more alcohol around than usual. It's a wonder he was able to shamble back into the housie to "continue working", or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM

" all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

I don't know about your personal working life Nigel but in any position I have ever held if I had turned up to a meeting with a bottle of wine questions about my suitabitity for the position may have been questioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

Raggy, in every company I worked for from 1980 until I retired in 2012, alcohol was forbidden on the premises. Bringing alcohol on to company premises would render the offender subject to disciplinary proceedings for gross misconduct, putting it into the same group of offences as assault, fighting, sexual harassment, theft, etc., the penalty for which was dismissal without notice.

That rule applied to every employee and director, from the MD/CEO downwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM

It's by no means unusual for journalists to carry out what is genuinely work in a drinking context - interviews and such carried out in pubs etc. I'd suspect that would have been very much Boris's style. And the same can be true in political circles - beer and sandwiches in negotiations with Trades Unions back in the old days, political shenanigans in the Commons Bars.

In itself the presence of drink doesn't rule out the possibility that people are working. But there's a limit, and it seems clear that this was well and truly crossed on numerous occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

On what do you base that? The Met have said that they will investigate if they have any information on illegal gatherings. If they were 'parties' they were almost certainly illegal. If they were working meetings between people who would otherwise have been mixing indoors that may be a wholly different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:59 AM

Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

They can call it what they like, Nigel. Every man and his dog knows it was a party. Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:21 AM

Dave:
Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?
None that I can remember, but I have been to works meetings where booze was available. Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:24 AM

Steve:
Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)

But no response to the question of how you know that the meetings were illegal, despite your insistence that that was the case?

You may be proved to be right in time, but stating now that they were illegal is 'prejudice'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

If the man who is at the head of the body that makes the rules has to be advised that what he is doing may break those rules one has to consider if he is competent to lead that body.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 11:10 AM

Judging by the way words are being stressed by Nadhim Zahawi, the report is going to be hidden from both public and wider Parliamentary view, with only the 'findings' released. What that means is anyone's guess, but it could be a one page summary simply saying Johnson should have done more to deal with the original party - which he has already admitted at PMQs - but it is outside her remit to say if anything was illegal - which it is.

If anyone imagines it will stop there, they have grossly mistaken the public view on these matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:52 PM

The straws you are clinging too are getting desperately thin, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM

"Hi all,

"After what has been an incredibly busy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.

"Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze!"

There ya go, Nigel. BYOB, let's have some drinks (we've been told there was food too), nary a mention of "work." A big indication that it was a reward for all their hard work. At that time, the maximum number of people you were allowed to meet outdoors was two. In fact, just an hour before, Oliver Dowden had publicly warned us of just that.

What part of "illegal" are you failing to grasp here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:09 PM

"Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk."

Implying that the people who work in Number 10 are the kind of oiks who drink out of the bottle. Probably accurate enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:13 PM

I see no one seems to have picked up on the significant typo in that email invitation.

Surely that first paragraph should have read "After what has been an incredibly boozy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:25 AM

I wonder at times whether Cressida bloody Dick isn't even more useless than Johnson. I wonder whether she'll be asked the questions about her conduct in all this that she fully deserves to be confronted with. After Jean Charles de Menezes, I've always marvelled at the fact that she got the job in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:35 AM

From Labour List just now.

"...The Metropolitan Police has announced that it will be investigating the Downing Street parties after all, due to both information provided by Sue Gray’s team and the assessments of its own officers. This indicates that Gray has definitely found evidence of behaviour that could be a criminal offence and had to be referred to the police. It seems likely now that the Gray report will be paused. The line ‘wait for the police’ is not a good replacement for ‘wait for Sue Gray’ and won’t be an easy one for ministers to repeat incessantly on the airwaves."

Some intriguing points in there. To add to that, the Met has said that there's no particular objection to the publication of the sections of Sue Gray's report that they've started to investigate. Bet that doesn't happen...

Mind you I agree that "Let's wait for the police..." doesn't have quite the same ring about it as "Let's wait for Sue Gray...". :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 09:44 AM

I have said before that I thought the time for MPs to send in letters was 17-19 January and if they did not, we would have Johnson in place until after the May elections.

Even though the Met have said they were willing for Sue Gray's report to be released, it looks like it is now weeks away. Listening to the Urgent Question today, there was a strong attempt from the Tories to dismiss everything, but I did not think the opposition had matching fire on their side. (True, they are not fighting for their political lives.)

So unless something quite dramatic happens, I think I stick to my May prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:00 AM

I think it depends on how much he knows the police know. It's looking very untidy for him just now. I think that either he'll go quite quickly or that you'll be right...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:11 AM

With the Sue Gray findings being held up by the Met inquiry I suspect that Boris may succeed in using the Ukraine Crisis as his get out of jail card, at least for a while. Working on his Churchillian speeches already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

He'll be doing that all right, though, as I said, the Met see no particular objection to the release of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 11:47 AM

The Met may have no objection but I bet Johnson will be doing is best to hold it up as long as he can. Whether as the Man who averted a War, or the Man who led the country in a War, he stands to be able to milk this situation for his benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 01:42 PM

Two comments from (oddly! ) AV Forums:

"Cressida Dick is well and truly in the pocket of the lying Johnson and his crooked cronies. This is just a delaying tactic while we wait for the whitewash. Talk about life imitating art, we need a real life AC12 and the Line of Duty team to investigate the Met."

"Yes the fact the current government are so far beyond incompetent, and seemingly beyond reproach for any of the immoral and illegal behaviour is the only reason Dick still has her own job. In normal times she would now be the most incompetent person in public office making decisions so biased and bad that they would be wholly unsurvivable, leading to questions asked if she needs investigating into by a different police authority."

I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but I think there are several grains of truth there. She is thoroughly incompetent, and she is clearly joined to Boris's hip. She needs to be grilled as to why her force has so far failed to investigate the Downing Street parties. It must be ludicrously easy to obtain records of who was going in and out of the building at all the times in question, so why not? Why were concerns not raised by the multiple police officers who are always there on duty (unless, of course, their concerns were raised but simply ignored, very likely I should think). Why is Johnson apparently so happy that she's now involved? Or am I being overly suspicious that a stitch-up is being sorted?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:17 PM

i don't think johnson is happy about any of these developments. he is a deeply insecure type of shite and it must be quite an effort for him to put on this positive appearance - clearly some days he hides his inadequacies better than others (probably depending on the previous night's booze intake) however, i could be wrong - it's all happening so fast i don't really know what i think will be the outcome.


However, watching all the tory creeps brown-nosing and cheering on their naked emperor does make me feel uncomfortable about living in what, for now, at parliament level, looks like a trumpist country. lets hope the law and due process can save us and hasten the end of the would be dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:20 PM

'rishi sunak accidentally attended johnson's birthday party' where 'johnson was 'ambushed by a cake' Aye, right. they really despise us eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:25 PM

The awards for today's finest Boris-lackeys go jointly to Grant Schapps (torn to shreds on the Today programme by Justin Webb - around 08.10 if you missed it) and Jacob Rees-Mogg on any news bulletin you care to watch. Utterly laughable defences of their charlatan leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:31 PM

you're right bonzo - i'm pissing myself laughing at them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 06:47 PM

Rees-Mogg said on Newsnight that if there is a change of leader he thinks there needs to be an election. No doubt we will hear this a lot over the next day or two, since it is designed to scare the red-wallers into supporting Johnson given their slim majority.

If this is true, either they call an election immediately Johnson goes, and try to fight the next election before they have chosen a leader. Or, alternatively, they choose their new leader who then completely voluntarily throws away their 80-odd seat majority.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 07:56 PM

A Turkish proverb (nicked from a Guardian comments thread):

“When the ox comes to the palace, he does not become a king. But the palace becomes a barn.”

A fair reflection of what's happened to Downing Street I should think...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:25 AM

I read a slightly different version

"When a clown comes to the palace, he does not become a king. But the palace becomes a circus.”

My own thoughts on why Bozo is happy about the police investigations is that a few members of staff will be thrown to the wolves to appease the masses while Boris will be exonerated as not being involved. The sacrifices have probably already been well rewarded and told what to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:27 AM

Without wishing to sound like an evasive Tory MP, I wish to say that I'm just waiting for Sue Gray... :-)

I note that after seeing that rather corpulent, purple-faced Tory trying to defend Johnson yesterday, claiming that Boris had been ambushed by a cake, Nigella Lawson has mused on twitter that "Ambushed By A Cake" would make a good title for her next book...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:33 AM

Well Farage was ambushed by a milk-shake, so I suppose a cake is a little more upmarket.

Liz Truss has, to an extent, already been ambushed by the cheese course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 AM

The unforgettable cheese speech

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 11:25 AM

Did fagarse write to apologise to the cow for being an obnoxious piece of proverbial that resulted in her milk being abused?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 11:48 AM

Of course Ed Miliband got ambushed by a bacon sandwich. And Bush had a nasty turn with a pretzel. You have to watch out for these hostile foodstuffs.

He'd better be careful who he throws to the wolves. That can go badly wrong. There was a former government employee on TV pointing out that Boris showed his fundamental political shambolism when he failed to realise that in sacking Dominic Cummings the way he did he was making a deadly enemy of the man with the ability and motivation to destroy him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM

You missed a couple out, Kevin. There was Cameron and pastygate, and, most egregiously, John Selwyn Gummer ostentatiously feeding a beefburger to his daughter on camera in May 1990 to prove that British beef was safe with regard to BSE.

As a long-time Guardian reader, don't you long for the halcyon days when Steve Bell depicted   Gummer as a pustule on Thatcher's nose...not to speak of John Major wearing his Y-fronts outside his trousers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 02:20 PM

Cameron'# predeliction was more for pork products wasn't it? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:03 PM

and not forgetting general uselessapotomusness from Diane Abbott!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:08 PM

The sources add that, while the lockdown-breaking offences are relatively minor and do not result in a criminal record if paid promptly, any attempts to lie, or to get others to lie, could result in an escalation of Scotland Yard’s inquiry, with perverting the course of justice investigations launched. Suspicion of committing such offences could lead to arrest, full criminal investigation and potentially time in jail if convicted.

Wow! This is a textbook example of the game theory "prisoner's dilemma" with the possibility of actual prison as a possible payoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:47 PM

. . . and don't forget George W. Bush,
who would not eat his broccoli.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:06 PM

I'm not surprised. The most boring vegetable on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:53 PM

. . . and don't forget George W. Bush,
who would not eat his broccoli.

Wasn't George H. W. Bush rather than his son, George W., who mentioned his distaste for broccoli?

In this case, I'm with President Bush senior.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

A fart on a stalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 06:29 PM

It¡s always the cover-up that causes the real trouble. With pretty all the scandals that have wrecked politicians they could likely enough been able to talk their ways out of it if they hadn't denied the facts and attempted to cover things up.

With this current stuff, if Boris had been open about it, admitted there's been significant cockups, and he'd been careless about it, he'd have been in a far far better position now.
The clear evidence that he deliberately lied to parliament is probably the bit that most threatens his survival now.

When it comes to his playing fast and looses with the rules and so fast they can and do drum up all kinds of rationales and excuses - no one is perfect, isn't this trivial set against big issues like war in Ukraine, other leaders like Churchill or Kennedy or Lincoln had some deep flaws et etc. If he'd not muddied up things with the denials and the lies those kind of notions would have been far easier to sell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 07:43 PM

Nowt wrong with broccoli... beats cauliflower hands down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 01:26 AM

I like ‘em both.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 03:15 AM

I like purple spouting broccoli. Could probably run the country better than Bozo too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 06:36 AM

I love purple sprouting so much that I grow it. Cropping beautifully just now. I see that the Tories are shitting on benefits claimants yet again. Oh well, I suppose they have to claw something back after writing off over four billion that went to COVID-19 fraudsters from the Treasury...Our money, in other words...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 01:25 PM

So, following hot on the heels of cakegate we now have rhubarbgate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 04:58 PM

Now Johnson declares there was no cake at all.

You think that might have been mentioned days ago ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 06:29 AM

So Johnson's big mate Cressida Dick has nobbled Sue Gray's report. Only the harmless bits will now be published. When the Met eventually release their findings you can bet your little life that it'll be "there wasn't enough evidence..." Can you believe that Boris hasn't had a hand in this?

Then we have Liz Truss, flying to Oz with her little entourage in a private jet, cost to the taxpayer a cool half-million. She could have done it business class on a scheduled flight for what, thirty grand? AND got there five hours earlier. Not to speak of her taking the US trade delegation to lunch at a posh restaurant (owned by Zac Goldsmith's half-brother...well, well, well...) at a cost of three grand for the ten of them. OUR three grand. Apparently, lunch included a couple of bottles of gin and five bottles of wine, at £60 or £70 the bottle. Bet they didn't have Dairylea on toast.

Piss-taking and corruption rule OK...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM

Elect a clown, end up with a circus.
We got what they voted for. Wonder if the truth has begun to dawn on them yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 09:21 AM

I question whether the police have the legal power to limit Sue Gray if she prefers not to fall in line, which has been suggested might be the case.   What's been reported is that they have ssked her, rather than instructed her.

Since no criminal proceedings would be involved with the alleged offences, I cannot see how it could seriously be argued that publication of details could have any significant impact on the ability of theooice to do their stuff. That's just flannel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

Lord McDonald, a crossbench peer and former DPP:

The risk of the police intervention this morning is that this leaves things hanging in the air for weeks and months, and that seems obviously not to be in the public interest.

If we’re talking about fixed penalty notices - like parking tickets, essentially - if we’re talking about that kind of resolution, then to take the rather grave step to delay a report that is going to shed public light on the subject matter of what may be a major public scandal, I think that is undesirable and I think it may be a misjudgment.

But only police know what it is that is really at play here.

It is really to say that if we are simply talking about lockdown breaches and fixed penalty notices, this move by the police this morning seems to be disproportionate.

Nazir Afzal, former chief prosecutor:

This is absolute nonsense from the Met police.

A purely factual report by Sue Gray cannot possibly prejudice a police investigation.

They just have to follow the evidence, of which the report will be a part.

Stitch-up. Whitewash.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 10:10 AM

Lord McDonald: It is really to say that if we are simply talking about lockdown breaches and fixed penalty notices, this move by the police this morning seems to be disproportionate.
If that is the case then the whole show was blown up over nothing.

Nazir Afzal: A purely factual report by Sue Gray cannot possibly prejudice a police investigation.
They just have to follow the evidence, of which the report will be a part.
The report may form part of the evidence if the matter goes to court. Putting that evidence in front of the public before it is even decided whether the matter is serious enough to go to court could prejudice any court outcome.

It seems to me that neither of these two quoted persons is quite on top of his brief.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 11:08 AM

"If that is the case then the whole show was blown up over nothing."

Directly lying to the House of Commons, and persisting in doing that, is no kind of criminal offence, but has always been seen as a fatal offence for any government minister, including a Prime Minister, requiring them to resign. In fact Boris Johnson this week stated he agreed tgat to be the case.

Evidence confirming that Mr Johnson has done that is very far from being "nothing", however trivial the legal penalties might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 12:53 PM

You know very well that this is not a row "over nothing," Nigel. Only someone who has had his fingers in his ears shouting "la la la" for three months would think that.

As for the report being evidence that might prejudice court cases, etc., let's find the bottom line here. The public interest in all this is not going to be served by the satisfaction of knowing that a bunch of wealthy Tories have been whacked with hundred quid fixed penalties. It will be served by our getting the whole and unvarnished truth about what has happened apropos of the parties. That's what Sue Gray is supposed to be delivering, that's what the public will judge the prime minister on and that's what will provoke Tory MPs into deciding whether he stays or goes. I don't give a damn about court cases and piffling fines, frankly. I want to know what went on. The whole story.

I'll say what the Beeb and the papers daren't say for fear of their being sued. A couple of days ago, the Met said that they had no issue with the publication of the report. Today, yes they suddenly do have an issue. The most damaging accusations, and presumably the most damaging findings, are to be kept from us. Maybe for weeks if the Met gets its way. How ideal for Johnson. Let it all fade from the headlines and the public perception. Then, down the line, we get told that there isn't enough evidence to secure convictions. Bingo. This all happened today when the report was on the cusp of being delivered. It's a stitch-up. Cressida Dick is a big mate of Johnson's, and almost certainly wouldn't be in post but for him. You can bet your ass that they've been in touch during the last 48 hours to fix a whitewash. There, I've said it, and I'm not scared of being sued. Because it's all just my opinion, guv. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 01:40 PM

It's not often I can say this without getting some funny looks

We need a leak!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 02:12 PM

There was a story in the Telegraph of all places pretty strongly implying what Steve wrote there - pretty clearly indicated how weak was the case for claiming that a full report would do anything to interfere with the police investigation, and saying it wss very hard to justify any delay or censoring.    They didn't go as far as pointing a fupinger at Cressida Dicks.

Being pretty cynical I wonder if the remarkable knack of Cressida Dicks survival, under several Prime Ministers, may be based on her knowing where the bodies are buried. Something that Boris seems to have overlooked when he sacked Dominic Cummings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 06:17 PM

On Newsnight on 28 jan, there was an ex supreme Court judge, a Conservative, and a Labour representative.

All three agreed there was no reason to redact the report, and it was in everyone's interest to release it in full without waiting for the Met to do their thing.

It is fairly unusual to have a Newsnight debate where everyone agrees with the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 06:22 PM

Everyone except Johnson's interest of course, though the Conservative thought should the full report clear him that would also be in his interests

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 07:06 PM

The whole point here is that, investigations apart, we already know the facts. We know that an honestly-published report (a phrase I use advisedly, and nothing to do with Sue Gray) would finish him. The only thing that is "in his interests" is delay, delay, delay. That's what he and Cressida Dick (who owes him one) are up to. We are living in a corrupt country. It's a tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM

Sorry, I meant "corrupted."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 08:19 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 07:06 PM

The whole point here is that, investigations apart, we already know the facts. We know that an honestly-published report (a phrase I use advisedly, and nothing to do with Sue Gray) would finish him. The only thing that is "in his interests" is delay, delay, delay. That's what he and Cressida Dick (who owes him one) are up to. We are living in a corrupt country. It's a tragedy.

I've asked before what information you have which is not available to the rest of us. You continue not to say, but to make unsubstantiated pronouncements.

Saying:
I'll say what the Beeb and the papers daren't say for fear of their being sued. A couple of days ago, the Met said that they had no issue with the publication of the report. Today, yes they suddenly do have an issue. The most damaging accusations, and presumably the most damaging findings, are to be kept from us. Maybe for weeks if the Met gets its way. How ideal for Johnson. Let it all fade from the headlines and the public perception. Then, down the line, we get told that there isn't enough evidence to secure convictions. Bingo. This all happened today when the report was on the cusp of being delivered. It's a stitch-up. Cressida Dick is a big mate of Johnson's, and almost certainly wouldn't be in post but for him. You can bet your ass that they've been in touch during the last 48 hours to fix a whitewash. There, I've said it, and I'm not scared of being sued. Because it's all just my opinion, guv. ;-) includes a lot of 'statements' which appear to be of 'fact'. Adding a small disclaimer, at the end, that it is just your opinion, does not mollify the tone of the earlier claims.

Your previous claim (with no attached caveat) was:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

I asked how you could know something which others still believed they needed to investigate to see whether it was true, and answer came there none!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 01:40 AM

There is no necessary contraction between knowing an illegal activity took place and needing an investigation. You might, for hypothetical purposes, know one or two people who admit to being at a gathering of say 20 people, but still need to investigate to find out who the rest were.

So even the redacted report could say that a gathering for social purposes took place in prima facie or definite breach of the rules and guidance but who was at it be redacted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 01:43 AM

When I say 'for hypothetical purposes' I should have been clearer and said something like. "To take a hypothetical example which is not directly based on any of the reported events, ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 02:39 AM

Nigel. It is a fact that Bozo is a liar. Do you want me to post the list of lies again? If that were not enough it is also a fact that there were gatherings at Downing Street which, even if they were within the letter of the law, were certainy against the spirit of it. The only unknown in all this is how Bozo will wriggle out of it. The report will probably limit his options which is why he is delaying it.

I see he is now talking to Putin. Knowing his ineptitude for tact and diplomacy I would guess that he is deliberately trying to provoke a war to detract the focus from his failings. Hopefully Putin, a real bully boy, will see him for what he is. The stupid little kid pulling his tongue out at the big lads through the school railings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 04:50 AM

I see that Truss the Terrible is due to visit Moscow too. Maybe she will seduce Vlad...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 06:52 AM

Dave:
It is a fact that Bozo is a liar. Do you want me to post the list of lies again? If that were not enough it is also a fact that there were gatherings at Downing Street which, even if they were within the letter of the law, were certainy against the spirit of it.

Allow me to split that down:
It is a fact that Bozo is a liar.
Is that consistently? Like one of the two men stood at doors to death or freedom, one of which always lies, one of which always tells the truth?

Do you want me to post the list of lies again?
No really. I've seen it before and it seems to be based on the idea that if you throw enough mud, some of it will stick.
Some of the claims in it may be deliberate lies, but as I recall some are statements of intent which were later overtaken by 'real life'. Some were statements of facts as he understood them at the time.

it is also a fact that there were gatherings at Downing Street which, even if they were within the letter of the law, were certainy against the spirit of it
Thank you for that acceptance. It is breaking the letter of the law which is illegal. Lawyers make a fortune arguing over the precise meaning of the written law, and it is the written law which can be enforced.

Apparently the 'ministerial code' requires Boris to resign if it is shown that he has deliberately misled Parliament. If this is so, and it can be shown that he has done this, then he should resign.
The election of a leader is then up to the Conservative Party. I would hope that Boris gets proposed for the post.
He may appear a buffoon at times, he may mislead (either deliberately or otherwise) but he gets the job done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

Nigel, we have photos and emails which confirm that gatherings took place in clear contravention of the rules that obtained at the time. None has been denied and several have been apologised for (though, naturally, illegality has not been admitted to). I do admire your valiant attempts to defend the indefensible, I must say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 08:22 AM

You are just trying to defend the indefensible Nigel. I have not accepted that it was not breaking the law. That is to be seen. It was not in the spirit of the law and that is the important point. To use loopholes to wriggle out of what was blatantly a smack in the mouth to all who adhered rigidly to the guidelines only adds insult to injury.

Mussolini and Hitler also got the job done. That is no excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 10:42 AM

Open breaking of the law which the police accept, and collude in ensuring those responsible gets away with it means one thing - a broken system of law, and a broken country.

Yes, Boris did the job alright.

I'm reminded of Easy Rider - "We've blown it.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 12:39 PM

If this is getting the job done I would rather get someone else in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 22 - 07:37 PM

Johnson has played a blinder in getting the Met to issue that statement at the last ditch moment. He'll be having wet dreams tonight when he thinks how lucky he is to have Cressida Dick in his pocket/as his little poodle. She means everything to him, but to the rest of us she's about as useful as tits on a boar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 03:31 AM

Today Johnson and Sunak have written a joint article in "The Sunday Times" that the NI rise is will take place.

This is an important statement. Johnson, of course, cares little whether it goes ahead and will be very aware of the large number of Tories who want to scrap it. If he thinks that will benefit him, he will scrap it.

But Sunak was already tied into going ahead with it by rumour, and has now made that his position in writing.

So we have reached yet another point of instability. If Johnson does backtrack, Sunak may resign and we are into an open contest for leader. But does he want to do that over an essentially unpopular tax? And if he does not, how diminished is his authority? It is a finely balanced decision.

Equally, though, does Johnson want to trigger that contest with Sunak? Probably not.

So at the moment, the tax stays. But it could change in days and what then happens then is extremely hard to predict. The options are clear, but which one will be taken I could not guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:40 AM

What would upset things is if Sue Gray decide that, since there is no legal force to the police request, she should ignore it and provide an undoctored report to Johnson. He could then do the doctoring himself. Of course he could lie and say that Sue Gray had done the dirty deed herself, but I doubt if that could stand up long, and that could be one lie too far.

The big danger is that Boris could decide that ratcheting up things in Ukraine offers the best way out for him, and thathe precipitates a war - it sounds as if the Ukraine government is not worried about that, pointing out that there is in fact no build up ofRussian forces over the level of the past few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:47 AM

"The big danger is that Boris could decide that ratcheting up things in Ukraine offers the best way out for him, and thathe precipitates a war"

Seriously?

I know that most here do not like the tory party, people who vote tory, and Boris, but still.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 09:23 AM

Why not? Thatcher did it to save her scrawny political neck, why not The Liar Johnson?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 09:42 AM

I imagine he'd sooner there wasn't a war, at least not directly involving the UK, and that he could present himself as the Man Who Averted War, but needs must. It's a powder keg, and it's dangerous playing with matches.   I'd much sooner trust the Ukraine president than the Prime Minister when it comes to the facts about the Russian build-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 10:04 AM

TBH, I’d sooner trust anyone, including Vlad Putin, than our proven liar of a PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:47 PM

Just a slight diversion. I spent most of today in A&E in North Devon District Hospital in Barnstaple. I have a recurring condition that needn't concern anyone and which probably won't kill me. I was there for over five hours, not just waiting around (though there was a fair bit of that) but also being triaged, tested and treated. I have to go back tomorrow for a scan, but that should be a bit quicker.

From starting to get worried on Saturday afternoon and doing the 111 thing, to being sorted out today, took less than 24 hours. I received the friendliest, most sympathetic, most thorough and most professional treatment I could have wished for. At the same time, with my eyes wide open, I saw a hospital which was understaffed and which was under extreme stress.

I salute the amazing staff at that hospital (at which it's been my misfortune to have to have attended many times in recent years, including for the death of my mum, for which the fantastic nurses bent the lockdown rules a bit so that I could be at her bedside and hold her hand as she passed away). I've never had a negative moment there, not once.

So when I hear Johnson and co claiming the credit for all the amazing good calls they've made, well shit on them. And I hate the fact that this last paragraph is here, but it needs saying in m' humble...

Wish me luck for tomorrow! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 03:06 AM

Good luck, Steve. Hope you are OK.

Same for both Mrs. G and me. Airedale General Hospital has never let either of us down and we have been there a lot in the last few years. It makes me so angry when the bastards who are trying to line their pockets try to take credit for all the hard work and professionalism of the underpaid and undervalued NHS staff. How anyone supports the shower of shits that are asset stripping this gem of a service is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: fat B****rd
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 04:22 AM

Sending positive "vibes" Steve
Charlie

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 05:17 AM

An echo to everything Steve and Dave say above. Between 2005 and 2014 I spent months in Lincoln County Hospital and Queen’s Medical Centre, Nottingham, had two major abdominal surgeries, and drainage and treatment for a liver abscess which necessitated the drain being inserted under CT Scan, and which included several days in ICU. The care I was given was at all times exemplary. The fact that I’m still here typing this post is down to the care I received in both hospitals.

One heartwarming thing that has stayed with me is how in 2014, and not having been in QMC since 2007, I was admitted there for the liver abscess, and several of the nurses and ancillary staff in ward E15 remembered me, we’re very kind to me indeed, and made me feel like a long-lost buddy. When you feel like shite, little things like that become very important.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 06:05 AM

Surprising as it may seem coming from a Cornishman, I was sent by my GP to Queens in 1996 to get my knee sorted out! Seems that it was some sort of centre of excellence for sports injuries. Nice B&B in Nottingham too!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 08:23 AM

It’s an excellent hospital. My consultant/surgeon was one of the top hepatobiliary surgeons in the country. I was most impressed when, in 2014, he was featured in a BBC TV series repairing the burst liver, and thus saving the life of, a farmer who had been crushed when one of his animals fell on top of him. The whole operation was conducted in a calm, matter-of-fact, ‘all in a day’s work’ atmosphere, nothing at all like the manic, rushing around, everyone-shouting-at-the-same-time kind of pandemonium we see on American TV dramas such as ‘ER’.

Long Live the NHS. And God Help Us if we’re ever reduced to a US-style healthcare system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 08:42 AM

Battered though the NHS may be, I don't think a day passes without me feeling grateful for the Fact we've still got it.
Right now I’ve got a special reason for that, with a cataract operation a couple of weeks ago. Amazing - less discomfort than a haircut, and now everyday it feelsss if the sun has come out, and I don't need my glasses.

I'm always puzzled how it is the Conservative party always seems to fail to recognise that in damaging cherished national institutions like the NHS (and the BBC) they are betraying the founding. principle expressed in their name.

I am pretty sure that most Tory voters I know feel that way about the NHS. But the party follows the money.

And you get properly well, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 09:20 AM

I've just got home. I had a scan this morning for a deep vein thrombosis, following a nasty dose of cellulitis (my third in 20 months) which left my lower leg the size of a football. Thankfully, all was clear and I'm well on the mend. Another very friendly and positive hospital experience, except that the medic seeing to me was a Man U fan. Tsk.

I do appreciate all the good wishes. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 09:21 AM

By the way, I've decided to add "hepatobiliary" to my lexicon. I'll be using that a lot!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 10:47 AM

Yep, it’s a good ‘un, innit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 11:22 AM

I see he is sorry again and promises a shake up of Number 10 and the cabinet office. I refer you to my post Dated 26 Jan 22 - 04:25 AM

My own thoughts on why Bozo is happy about the police investigations is that a few members of staff will be thrown to the wolves to appease the masses while Boris will be exonerated as not being involved. The sacrifices have probably already been well rewarded and told what to say.

Does a "shake up" sound like sacrificial lambs to you too? I would be interested to see what happens to those in the crosshairs. I can pretty much guarantee that they will not be at the job centre next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 12:43 PM

That went about as badly for the Prime Minister as it could, short of him actually breaking down. There were a few striking moments:

1. Starmer's speech was heard in virtually complete silence. The standard barracking of PMQs was noticeably absent.

2. Ian Blackford's battle over the 'inadvertedly' restriction should make the edited highlights.

3. Almost the entire defence was 'wait for the met'. Everything else was look at these other things we have done - most of which were disputable anyway.

4. Theresa May got a good chance at revenge, and I am pleased Ian Blackford took the opportunity to commend her question.


It was also notable that Johnson is refusing to commit to releasing the full report whatever happens, and that few of the questions from the end were from Conservatives. The Independent reports that this is because the Conservatives ran out of people willing to make them, but I can't confirm that either way. The absence was, however, notable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:04 PM

I forgot one (and it get 2900!)

That bizarre little moment when, following the report a while back of drugs being found at 11 out of twelve places tests (if I recall correctly), one MP asked if as well as a drinks culture there was a drugs culture led to Johnson saying that should be directed at the Labour benches.


I imagine some drug taking happens on both benches, but that was very dodgy way to address it. Expect evidence on drug taking at No 10 to follow. In fact, in the 300 photos, there could already be evidence of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I was surprised by the business with the speaker trying to get Ian Blackfrord to pretend that he believed that Boris Johnson had been "inadvertant" in saying stuff that was untrue to the House. I knew there was a rule against using the word "lie", but I'd always taken it that, if phrased properly, it was in order to make the accusation.

That is irrational. If it has be accepted that lying cannot have taken place, how can it be that a minister who lies must resign, since it is officially impossible for them to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:41 PM

When I click in the Independent feed for the 300 photos and 500 pages of text handed to the police as a result of the Gray enquiry I get this appropriate advertisement

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 04:47 PM

Reading not-so-much-between-the-lines, Sue Gray is clearly embittered by the way her report has been kicked about, and she has done her damnedest to make what's left of it to tell it as much as possible like it is. Good for her. Apparently, there is a parliamentary way of forcing the government to release the whole, unexpurgated thing. Dunno how possible it is, but the opposition could table a "humble address", which, if successful, could force Johnson's hand. Thing is, I'm not sure that Starmer wouldn't prefer to leave him where he is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 04:51 PM

There was talk of using the "humble address" last week, so if there is a possibility, I think it could happen.

Meanwhile, an ITV reporter tweeted this after the evening meeting of the Conservative MPs:

An MP who is critical of the PM, comes out of the meeting with him and says “they are f***ing deluded… there is no way we are getting 54 letters”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 07:15 PM

A humble address would only succeed if a whole lot of Tories voted for it, or sat on their hands. I suspect that there are a good few Tories who might vote against Boris in a party vote of confidence who would hesitate to vote for a motion tabled by the Opposition. A matter of tribalism.

It still might be worth having a go. Even if only to show up the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 07:45 PM

Those were my thoughts too. I feel that the pressure to release the unexpurgated Sue Gray report, not some watered-down Met Police version, should be kept up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 08:50 PM

It looks as if Boris has given way on that - Its been promised that Sue Gray will present an up dated version of her report when the police have done. And the signs are she'll go in hard.

Of course a promise by Boris is as trustworthy as anything else he says, but that should be a hard one to get away with breaking. Though l imagine he will try to find some way to do that.

If Cressida Dick were able to fix the inquiry that might help him, but I think she'd have major problems with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 02:24 AM

The humble address would not be for a confidence vote. It would be to release Gray's full report immediately.

The Tory defence would undoubtedly be "we must wait for the Met to finish their investigation."   So the only way it could really succeed would be if the Met had issued a statement beforehand that they have reached the point its release in full would not impact their investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:19 AM

I think that the chances of Cressida Dick doing that in anything like a hurry are about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle, or, if you don't remember that one, look into the heavens to check for aerially-mobile pork. By the way, she's keeping her head well down, isn't she? She's thoroughly his woman...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:45 AM

I agree that the Met will not release such a statement, and that is why I think a humble address to get at the full report is unlikely, unless, after the Met finish whatever they are up to, Johnson decides not to release the full report after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 06:03 AM

An interesting piece in Labour List this morning. Googleable I hope...

"Why Sue Gray should pass her report to Boris Johnson, immediately and in full" written by John Whitting QC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:26 AM

There might well be some Tories who might break ranks and vote for that, but I doubt if there woud be enough. And I suspect that there'd be some mechanism by which the government could defy it anyway - the police request might not have any legal force, but it could and would be claimed that it did, and that would be a way of kicking it all into the long grass.   

They could always get the tame Attorney General to say the the police request had force, and they could rustle up some legal experts who could say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 03:31 PM

"She's thoroughly his woman..."

Did you not think the same about Sue Gray?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 03:34 PM

Has Boris revealed his true colours at last?

He is a true remainder when so many want him to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:14 PM

"Ministers spent almost £9bn on personal protective equipment that was either substandard, defective, past its use-by date or dramatically overpriced, according to figures released on Monday." [David Conn in the Guardian]

On top of the four billion-plus paid out to fraudsters. Oh yes, Johnson made "all the right calls" for sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:18 PM

Well it did worry me when Sue Gray got the job, but, utterly unlike the disreputable Cressida Dick, who would have been out of post years ago but for Johnson, she's risen to the task fearlessly and shown solid integrity. Quite possibly to Johnson's surprise and disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:11 PM

Well, she did run a pub in Newry one time, and she's married to an Irish country singer, so I felt she'd likely enough come through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 04:43 AM

I never knew that Kevin. I already thought she had done a good job. She has now gone even higher in my estimation :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:02 AM

I have a funny feeling that the kicking-the-can-down-the-road tactic could rebound on Johnson. During this limbo period before the police speak out there will be a constant drip-drip of new allegations, or twists and turns on current ones. Bring it on, Dom! We love you! But set your satnav to get you back from Barnard Castle as the road signs all have inconveniently small print...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:42 AM

I note the Tories reverting to type, and starting up the character-assassination tactics which served them so well against Jeremy Corbyn, but this time directed towards Keir Starmer.

They must be shitting bricks, if they feel the need to stoop so low once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:17 AM

And the Tories’ ‘Levelling-up’ Minister on ‘Politics Live’ just now, dragging out the tired old Tory trope that the last Labour government ‘bankrupted the country’.

One could be forgiven for believing that, at the same time as they’re hiding their own incompetence behind the Covid-19 pandemic, this government want everyone to forget that the Labour government had to deal with the effects of the world-wide financial crash, and had to spend over £1 trillion supporting our banks (of which a substantial amount was subsequently recovered, but which debt remained at £486 billion at 31st March, 2010).

Nothing to do with ‘Labour incompetents bankrupting the country’, and everything to do with the reckless profligacy of the Tories’ mates, the bankers.

The cost of the 2008 Financial Crash

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:46 AM

There is no end to the lies he will tell

Boris Johnson’s false claim about Jimmy Savile

Come on you Boris supporters on here. How do you justify that one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:49 AM

Sorry - The link maker cut the URL short - Here it is in full

Boris Johnson’s false claim about Jimmy Savile

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:53 AM

The viper and Bozos other cronies are defending the indefensible showing that they have no shame either. If that was ever in doubt

Gove says Boris Johnson has ‘nothing to apologise for’

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 11:18 AM

I think Steve is right that kicking the can down the road is likely to work out badly for Boris and the Tories. There is going to be a continuing stream of damaging revelations over the weeks and months. Dominic Cummings is going to ensure that, for one - and he can expect to be joined. By a load of ditched civil servants resentful at being thrown to the wolves to same the shape-changing creep.

And the nearer to the election the Tories ditch Boris, the harder it will be for the new woman or man to break free of his contamination.

And the Covid inquiry is coming along. if they can't nobble it, that should make it harder to get people to buy the lone that he did a great job in responding to the crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 02:45 PM

Just seen a Re-Tweet of an old Liz Truss Tweet - ”Used to see Jimmy Savile at ‘The Flying Pizza’ on Street Lane, Roundhay. Always in good spirits. RIP”? She’s so dense, light bends around her!

And what is it about Nonces and pizza places? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:01 PM

Liz Truss - the Foreign Secretary who thinks the Baltic countries border on the Black Sea. And she could be our next Prime Ministet…

Speaking on the BBC's Sunday Morning show (that used to be Andrew Marr's)"We are supplying and offering extra support into our Baltic allies across the Black Sea”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:17 PM

And right now it's Liz Truss who's in the driving seat as Britain is due to become in breach of its treaty obligations and of its treaty obligations at midnight, with the Nother Ireland DUP first minister ordering its staff to halt all customs checks at its ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:58 AM

If Truss breaks treaties then whatever happens is between the rest of the world and the tory party, and has nothing to do whatsoever with the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 08:59 AM

Back to the NHS...

I had call to visit St Luke's today - No, not that one Steve and anyone else of our age from Manchester :-) This one is in Bradford and has a dermatology clinic rather than treating other embarrassing conditions!

Less that 2 weeks ago I went to the doctor with a lump on the side of my nose that I have had for years but had suddenly gone sore. The dermatology clinic sent me an appointment about 3 days later and that was for 10:50 this morning. By 11 I had been assessed. By 12 the lump had been removed. It was a Basal Cell Carcinoma - Cancerous but not dangerous I am glad to say.

It has made me more determined than ever to fight the shower of shits who are trying to sell the NHS off to line their pockets and speak out against the supporters of the shysters who do.

I am afraid I will never understand those, including some on here, who profess to be caring human beings yet continue to vote for those who will obviously trash this gem of a service for their own selfish gain. OK, I can understand them not supporting Labour but for heavens sake, don't keep giving Bozo and his paymasters carte blanche to make themselves richer by effectively killing off the poor!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 09:10 AM

Just came across a wonderful website which included this perfect description of some exchanges on here

"Kamm's Gimlet: Argument-winning technique whereby a writer pens tedious diatribes of such immense length and intellectual flatulence that political opponents lose the will to continue debating.
So called because, like its chief practitioner, a gimlet is a small boring tool."

Plenty more on The Encyclopedia Of Decency

Enjoy :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 09:37 AM

"And, asked if Mr Johnson always told the truth, Mr Sunak, who has previously made little comment on the Downing Street gatherings, replied: "Yes, of course he does. He's the prime minister of the United Kingdom.""

Well, you can't argue with that…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM

apparently he's after Johnson's job. he may be wiser to stop such dead pan arselickery if he is calculating the best route for a move next door. 'does the chancellor of the exchequer always get his calculations right? of course he does he's the chancellor of the exchequer'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:49 PM

Does Abbopotomus always get her sums right???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:57 PM

We really should have a lever for drawing moderators attention to posts like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:59 PM

Ignore him. It's what living in Croydon does for one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 05:53 AM

same thing happened to my dad in carlisle. he spent his last remaining years sitting in his chair, drinking cheap cider, eating (only) biscuits and slagging off diane abbott, cherie blair, harriet harman, claiming he couldn't understand non-white female newsreaders, reading the daily heil and voting tory and brexit (despite all his family -including 2 grand children in estonia and italy) - arguing with him about it. these nasty old relics are everywhere - how long will it take us to be rid of them? we have to admit you can't have a reasonable discussion with them as politics is just a game and they chose their side decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 01:25 PM

Ageism is no more admirable than any of the other unpleasant isms associated with expressions like "how long will it take us to be rid of them?".

In fact getting rid of "old relics" would be much easier than getting rid of most of the hate objects of some of those other isms.

There are indeed some pretty nasty old people, just as there are some very nasty people of all sorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 02:11 PM

of course. age here is nearly irrelevant i'm no child myself (65) and all members of the current cabinet are way younger than me. my frustation is with the maybe 40% of people who will not change long held opinions about empire, race, forelock-tugging - all opinions constantly indulged by the daily mail and the press in general. my dad asked me to set up a delivery of the Mail til the day he died. people of all ages will stubbornly insist that brexit was a good idea despite all available evidence. now these brexiteers are mostly old (or empty-headed young tory types, i suppose) and those of us who remain are just defrauded, bitter, sad and angry. great, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 03:16 PM

There are nasty ways of thinking and behaving which are more prevalent in any subsection of humanity. There's an element of truth in many, probably most, stereotypes. But thinking in those kinds of terms is too dangerous to allow ourselves to indulge in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:27 AM

Does anyone else think, as I do, that the entire farce of Johnson’s PM-ship (almost typed ‘PM-shit’ there!) and this Conservative government’s time in power is proof positive that our electoral system of FPTP is utterly discredited, and must be abandoned a.s.a.p. in favour of a system of PR?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:37 AM

Well if it means permanent coalitions, all I can do is refer you to the last one, an unmitigated disaster for working people. I honestly don't think you can blame FPTP for throwing up a dangerous idiot like Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:44 AM

the time for PR will be after 2 terms of a green/socialist government that will reset the governance of england back to 1978 (or thereaboots)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:09 AM

If we go back to 78 will I be 25 again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:47 AM

if you like - the workers' revolutionary council will be very generous with any such requests. Or anything that happened after the clash and others anti-racism gig at victoria park has all been a collective dream - now we know better we can crack on and avoid all the mistakes made since.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:57 AM

PR seems to work well, and is very popular, in most other European countries. Surely it’s not beyond the wit of man to devise a system for the UK that would work well?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:16 AM

If someone was born in 33 in 78 they would have been 45 ......... is this a record?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:22 AM

Stop trying to put a spin on it, Raggytash!

Are you talking about Vikky Park in London, Pete? I might have been there! That was my stomping ground for a few years in the later 70s...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 07:18 AM

That 2010 coalition was pretty disastrous, but most especially because by almost wiping out the LIb Dems in the subsequent election it led us into Brexit, and hence Boris. And that was a consequence of FPTP.

It has has enabled the Tory party to stay in power for pretty well the whole of the last century. There is every reason to expect that this will still be the case for the next century.. This is in spite of the fact that there has pretty well always been a left of century majority popular vote.
(The only exception to that was in 1931 and 35).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 08:34 AM

Yes, i was often down in london for the big demos those days. i was at stirling uni 75-78 and for the rock against racism gig we had 6 coach loads come down - it was a new and quite radical uni.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 09:09 AM

I lived 400 yards from Victoria Park between 1969 and 1973, thankfully Abbophant had nothing to do with it then!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 09:50 AM

Bonzo - Not only is your constant referal to Dianne Abbot in racist/sexist/sizist terms annoying to decent, caring human beings, it is also very boring and shows you up to be a racist/sexist/sizist prick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 10:10 AM

As well as a royal sycophant, and, worst of all, a victim of living in Croydon....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 10:45 AM

Probably thinks Jimmy Carr is funny too

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM

Provided that you consider the positives in Jimmy Carr's humour, he is very clever and funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 01:01 PM

He looks like a psychopathic granny-killer - mad as a hatter. It’s those weird eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 01:22 PM

His whole point is that people much prefer to talk about the dreadful murder of 6 million Jews in concentration camps, rather than the infinitely smaller numbers of gypsies etc and the joke is on Jehovah's Witnesses.......................any day!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 03:47 PM

"You have to assume that Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking on the door of a death camp waving copies of Watchtower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:55 PM

what is the matter, b2l? are you alright?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 08:07 PM

Nah, Pete. You know that statue by Rodin called The Kiss? Last I heard, Bonzo was campaigning to get a sort of pastiche fifty-foot replica of it erected in Croydon town centre, but it would be a naked Boris and a naked Thatcher embraced in a big snog. The council have so far resisted the application as they're worried about the potential for graffiti on Thatcher's bare buttocks and greyhounds cocking their legs up on Boris's nuts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 09:04 PM

The opinion on Boris Johnson from Bloomberg.

Boris Johnson and 'Partygate'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 06:50 PM

So Keir Starmer is attacked in the street by right-wing thugs shouting "Jimmy Savile" at him. The attack is a direct result of Johnson's false slur against Starmer in the Commons. Johnson has refused to apologise. I'll give him a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:51 AM

I wonder if the feeble-minded crackpots whom he persuaded to vote Tory in the 2019 GE have begun to realise yet that if you elect a clown, you inevitably end up with a circus?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 03:50 AM

Or, if you elect a Churchill wannabe you get a Trump...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 03:56 AM

Of course if he is forced out it will be by fake news and traitors wanting to stop Britain being great again. I predict the election of any other leader will be declared to be rigged and Bozo supporters will storm Westminster. There is a precedent. Or is that president? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 04:04 AM

surely he is off shortly - (thursday a.m is my bet) though i've felt that before. But what about all the enablers, the tory ministers who appear on the media every morning backing him up, supporting all his latest excesses and giving him 100% trust. As with republicans in the usa - they should all be prosecuted - if they don't all disappear in noxious cloud when their glorious leader loses his head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 04:23 AM

I would like to think Johnson is going shortly, but I still think he might win the confidence vote when we get to that point. Remember when we have reached the 54 letters we still need another 137 or so additional Tory MPs to vote against him. They might, of course, but we will have to see. And if he wins by only one of two, that is enough for him and he would stay the year before the next opportunity for a vote, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 04:24 AM

... 127 ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:19 AM

I really can’t see him going any time soon. By involving the Met, Mr. Teflon-Suit has kicked the ‘No. 10 Parties’ can so far down the road it’s almost invisible, and his henchpersons and poodles are on TV and in the press frequently parroting the official “What he said didn’t mean what you thought it meant” line with regard to the ‘Jimmy Savile’ lie. I’m seeing more and more posts in social media, and Vox Pop pieces on TV saying he’s a ‘good bloke’, he’s ‘on are (sic) side’, and ‘only Boris can do it’ (whatever they are imagining ‘it’ might be).

I strongly suspect he will do what he always does - dig in, head down, ride out the barrage, and wait for the public’s ire to abate somewhat. Then carry on as though nowt happened.

I hope I’m wrong, but….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:26 AM

As I have said elsewhere I think this quotation from '1984' captures it: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”   

Isn't that exactly what "Wait for the Met report" is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:45 AM

Sadly, I think you’re right on the button, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 06:05 AM

It seems to me that he has a very important reason for not confessing that the ‘Jimmy Savile’ comment in the HoC was, in fact, a lie - which is that he wants to keep it as ‘live’ ammunition, ready to be used when the character-assassination attack begins in the lead-up to the next GE. Lies about Jeremy Corbyn served him very well in 2019, why wouldn’t he embark on the same kind of dirty campaign against whoever is Labour leader at the next GE?

Leopards don’t change their spots.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 08:27 AM

Johnson's "clarification" appears to have been that he was just pointing at a formal apology made by Keir Starmer on behalf of the organisation which he headed and how that had in no way implied that Starmer had done anything wrong.

The implication being that In saying "I'm Sorry" to the Commons Johnson had in no way expressed any personal penitence of any kind. Or sincerity.

I think most people will already have assumed this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 10:47 AM

Johnson's "clarification" appears to have been that he was just pointing at a formal apology made by Keir Starmer on behalf of the organisation which he headed and how that had in no way implied that Starmer had done anything wrong.

Of course, as Keir Starmer apologised for the actions of the department he headed then ultimately he was responsible.

Boris is probably clever enough to realise that if his opponents claim Keir Starmer is not responsible then they would be employing double standards to claim that Boris was responsible for the doings of his own underlings in Number 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 11:37 AM

Well, Nigel, suppose a teacher in a large secondary school was having it off with an underage pupil (as in recent telly drama - God, I love Sheridan Smith...). The headteacher would apologise on behalf of the school even though he couldn't have had anything to do with the offence nor even knew it was going on. Of course he'd apologise. But that wouldn't mean that it was in any way his fault, would it? I must say, I do admire your valiant defence of the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 12:04 PM

Sheridan’s mum is an attendee at a folk club I also attend. A good singer and bass-player, and a very nice lady. Can’t help wishing she’d bring Sheridan with her occasionally! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 12:05 PM

suppose a teacher in a large secondary school was having it off with an underage pupil (as in recent telly drama - God, I love Sheridan Smith...). The headteacher would apologise on behalf of the school even though he couldn't have had anything to do with the offence nor even knew it was going on. Of course he'd apologise. But that wouldn't mean that it was in any way his fault,

If that was on school premises then the head would have some responsibility because of a failure to have systems in place to avoid putting staff/pupils into situations where this could happen.
If it was outside school premises then there could still be some responsibility depending on whether 'grooming' etc. was happening within the school.

Of course, your argument appears to exonerate Boris of any responsibility for any 'parties' of which he was unaware.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 12:28 PM

Nonsense. Johnson ATTENDED at least several of those parties, and a large number of them occurred in his house! As for your other remarks, you've clearly never worked in a large secondary school, have you, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:04 PM

To apply the analogy to Johnson would be to imagine the headmaster a having been present while the teacher was doing the deed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:53 PM

What if the perpetrator of hundreds of vile crimes was a long time supporter and campaigner for your political party and a personal friend of the the then leader Margaret Thatcher, whose house he apparently used to visit at christmas? you would think this is a particularly nasty can of worms that the tories would not want to open. then, they can probably rely on starmer to do the decent thing and not wish to revisit such awful old events, in respect for , well everyone really. tories really are getting more disgusting by the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 03:00 PM

You appear to be totally missing the points here.
Nonsense. Johnson ATTENDED at least several of those parties,
It has yet to be clarified which were parties (if any) or whether they were all 'work related meetings'.
and a large number of them occurred in his house!
There don't seem to be a large number of them having occurred in his place of residence (The 'flat' above No 10). It seems a large number occurred in his 'place of work'.

And no, I haven't worked in a large secondary school. Does that have any bearing? Or have you worked there and have your own knowledge of such goings on?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 03:48 PM

Nope. Purely hypothetical. Nigel, inspired by the telly drama. Don't get any funny ideas. And most head teachers I've known didn't have a flat above the school assembly hall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:04 PM

An article in "The Independent" from 6 Dec 2016 says what Rees-Mogg might be looking for as Brexit opportunities."

Britain could slash environmental and safety regulations on imported products after it leaves the EU, a Tory MP has suggested.

Jacob Rees-Mogg said regulations that were “good enough for India” could be good enough for the UK – arguing that the UK could go “a very long way” to rolling back high EU standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 06:51 PM

My suspicion is that this "Brexit opportunities" job might be primarily a make-work thing cooked up as a way, without demoting him, of moving Reese-Mogg out of too much public attention in his House Leader role, where his prominence on TV is a bit much if Johnson is trying to redo his image, and look a bit more like a serious statesman. Some chance.
………

Whether the numerous gatherings count as parties or not is totally irrelevant. The regulatiins never even used the word. Any kind of gathering - at times even more than two people - were forbidden, unless they were essential word meetings, with as few people involved as possible. Hell, you couldn't even sit down on a park bench at the height of it. Having anyone to visit in your personal flat was completely forbidden, for any reason..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 02:57 AM

Whether the numerous gatherings count as parties or not is totally irrelevant.

Absolutely, McGrath. This constant argument about whether it was or was not a party is a total irrelevance. Any gathering for social purposes was permitted.

We have the photo where Carrie was in her garden in close proximity to several other people. Forget, for the moment, everyone else who was in the photograph. The group of people sitting on that garden furniture were either a social gathering, which was forbidden, or Carrie was involved in a work meeting "though a spokesperson for Ms Johnson said she played no role in government." No official role, maybe, but if that was a work meeting, then she is involved in government. And if you want to make the argument she is just in her garden, you get back to it being a forbidden social gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 02:58 AM

Sorry, I left out a 'not' there. A social gathering was NOT permitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 01:05 PM

Boris makes false claims in parliament, misusing statistics see here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00146b6

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 02:44 PM

Cressida Dick ‘to stand down’ (BBC News a few minutes ago). Not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 03:34 PM

Decided that not even she has the brass neck to protect Bozo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 03:44 PM

She was a disastrous appointment and would have gone years ago but for Johnson. He mustn't be allowed to pick her successor while he's under police investigation. Let's see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 03:49 PM

i don't have the tech ability to post on here - chris wood 'hollow point' but it's a very lovely and moving tribute to jean Charles de Menezes. if anyone could oblige...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 04:17 PM

Here ya go, Pete… Chris Wood - ‘Hollow Point’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 04:54 PM

When I saw the hashtag ‘#dickresigns’, I thought Johnson had gone. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 07:47 AM

He's a bit too right-wing for my liking, but tell us what he's done wrong (apart from road pricing). My lad lives just outside the ULEZ zone. He can't take his stuff to the local recycling, a few hundred yards away, unless he pays £12.50. That's a prize cock-up if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 07:50 AM

And don't you think that getting rid of Cressida has done us all a favour?

(Only posted this to prevent some twot from bagging the 3000. I want to be that twot).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 10:18 AM

What favour?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 11:26 AM

Suggested newspaper headline:

SADIQ KHAN GETS DICK OUT

I'll get me dirty mac...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 12:01 PM

If you want to know what Cressida Dick is really like, read Marina Hyde's piece in the Guardian. You probably prefer the Mail, Bonzo, but your next saveloy and chips with curry sauce might be wrapped in the Guardian so you can read it then. Don't forget to leave Sadiq a tip when he serves it to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 04:34 PM


(Only posted this to prevent some twot from bagging the 3000. I want to be that twot)

Gave that on me then, Steve, unless someone sneaks in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 04:45 PM

3000!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 05:55 PM

Oi, yer buggers! I've been denied the 3000 by a sneaky mod deleting stuff! Grrr!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 04:45 AM

Well, here's a little announcement about my political leanings:-
I've come to the conclusion that the Tories are a bunch of self-seeking, unreliable, dishonest, irresponsible and possibly corrupt 'old boy networking' nasties, and at the next election, I will more than likely vote Labour.
Buttered crumpet anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:11 AM

Two please, with Marmite! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:15 AM

Spread it to'em, Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:36 AM

I knew you cared too much about people to vote for this bunch of charlatans again, Eliza. I'm a little surprised that you fell for it in the first place but it wasn't your fault. They are masters of the con trick. If there is only one thing that would convince anyone to never vote for them again, just look at the Tories record on health and social care since the NHS came into being. There is nothing more important than our health and looking after those least able to care for themselves. The Tory track record on that is plain for all to see and they are blatantly selling off the NHS to line the pockets of their paymasters and make themselves richer.

I know you will never be left wing. I am not particularly and I believe there is a place for responsible capitalism. You have taken a brave step there and brought hope to all who care. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:49 AM

Marmite crumpets coming up!
No, I'm not exactly 'left-wing' but I'm disgusted with the Tories and can see now that they don't care one bit about us.
Boris used to amuse me, but I can now see through the 'buffoon act'.
I think they've handled the pandemic rather incompetently, (apart from the vaccine programme, which has been commendable), and as you say, let down the NHS to breaking point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 08:16 AM

I get very hot under the collar with this government, especially with the way that they claim ownership of anything successful - e.g. the ‘Government’s Vaccine Rollout’, which was entirely managed and enacted by the NHS - and their disownment of failures - e.g. the failed ‘NHS Track & Trace System’, which was (mis)managed by the government, not the NHS.

A more dishonest, disreputable bunch of greedy crooks I cannot conceive of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 08:19 AM

And don’t get me started on their flags, banners, badges, three-word slogans, control of the bulk of the press, and demonisation of minorities - shades of 1930s Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 10:02 AM

Boris can indeed be very amusing. It's a act, but then being a comedian is very much a matter of building up a character and putting on an act. When he backs to doing that as a funny man for his way of showing off, and abandons the political malarkey, I'm sure I'll quite enjoy him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 11:04 AM

He's damaged our democracy, he's a liar, a law-breaker and he's demeaned the highest office in the land. At the moment we are, quite rightly, condemning a footballer who abused his cat and are even calling for his sacking. Once Johnson goes I never want to hear him or clap eyes in him ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 02:51 PM

whatever else he does from now on, johnson was the main figure involved in reducing my rights as a human being and building needless barriers between me and family in Tallinn and Bari, and very many other crimes against the good people of the UK. He won't ever be funny, McGrath - he is a thoroughly disgusting Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 06:25 PM

I imagine we can all agree the man is a clown. But people never seem to agree as to whether clowns are actually funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:55 AM

Having been a primary teacher all my long working life, I've dealt with many 'class clowns', and knew that their daft behaviour was always a means of hiding misdemeanours or shortcomings. Boris seems to me to put on his 'lovable buffoon' act when he's flustered or put on the spot by a searching question.
In my opinion, a leader, statesman, President. Prime Minister etc should at least possess the quality of dignity. That's why I really liked Obama and detested Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 09:50 AM

Many of us in the US suffered from coulrophobia while Trump was in office. He was a major scary clown. Evil.

He hounded Hillary, suggesting "lock her up" due to her using a personal email server because the State Department servers sometimes had issues. And now we learn it took a plumber to deal with Trump's messages after he tore and flushed them. Evil clown. Is Johnson as bad as that one? His clownishness seems to be of a more shallow variety. He seems to be a hedonist clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 10:28 AM

He looks shambolic and he always seems unprepared. Unfortunately, concealed beneath that exterior is a man who feels entitled, a man who has surrounded himself with a bunch of arse-licking toadies, an inveterate liar and a serious threat to our democracy. He broke the law when he tried to prorogue Parliament, he screwed up the Northern Ireland brexit protocol which meant another breach of the law and he's been a serial breaker of his own rules during lockdowns. He tried to change the rules to protect a corrupt MP, he has defended the Home Secretary in the face of her bullying and has protected the useless Metropolitan Police commissioner who has overseen the perpetuation of a rotten culture at the core of the force. His poor response to the pandemic, especially in the early days, has cost tens of thousands of lives. Apart from all that, he's just great.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 12:21 PM

Apart from all that, he's just great
I am sure most of us can think of a few more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 12:47 PM

"most" - who are these "most" you mention? Yet again I'm reading drivel from the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 01:05 PM

You mean us proud lefties? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 05:43 PM

It is quite straightforward, Bonzo. Most people will be able to identify at least one more issue with Johnson. For example, we could mention him telling people in Northern Ireland to throw any customs forms in the bin. Someone else might want to reference his time as Foreign secretary and his achievements, or the £900,000 wasted exploring the feasibility of a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland.   As I say, I am sure most people could do this if they paid attention.

But I cannot guarantee everyone can, so I said 'most'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:31 PM

I hope the NI and Scottish assemblies were forced to pay for this. I will not have my taxes wasted on rubbish like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 06:56 PM

Why would the Scottish Parliament pay for something completely cooked up by the Conservative UK gvt? A party which has no mandate in Scotland????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 12:28 PM

why should people in London who did not vote for this government have there taxes wasted on Scottish/Northern Irish infrastructure projects?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 01:14 PM

Well of course Scots and Irish people paid for the Channel Tunnel and are paying for the new high speed rail link even though they are in England. It is by the by. The money spent was spent on the feasibility of the so called Boris bridge without consulting the Scottish gvt. Sturgeon said she did even believe he was completely serious suggesting it was a diversion. I suppose meaning he was trying to appease the DUP about the so called border in the Irish Sea. All by the by. The point is if you (the UK gvt) carry out a feasibility study then you (the UK gvt) pay for it. How could it be any different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 01:51 PM

The channel tunnel is in England? Only a bit of it Allan!

Don't get me wrong here, I know what you mean. But your argument about who pays is flawed in a number of ways. Firstly, the population of Scotland is 1/10th of England so, tax wise, they contribute only 1/10th towards any UK projects. Secondly, the people of Scotland receive a far higher return on taxes than us in England because of the Barnett formula. Finally, you have cleaner air, better scenery, free University education and less congestion. Give us a break! The only advantage we have is that we get cheaper whisky but thay is only because Nicola Sturgeon hates booze :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM

The principle is the same but it is irrelevant as this was not a Scottish gvt initiative. It was a Boris feasibility study and nothing to do with the Scottish gvt. Why on earth should spending come out of the Scottish gvt's budget when this has nothing to do with the Scottish gvt? There are devolved matters and these are paid for out of the Scottish gvt's budget. This was not a devolved matter. It was the UK gvt's hair brained plan for a possible major project within the UK. I agree it was a waste of money but it was a waste of money by a UK gvt. The Scottish gvt targets its own spending and that did not involve these plans. As well as suggesting she thought Boris was simply throwing this as a diversion the FM, with tongue in cheek, suggested if the UK gvt was going to spend tens of billions on a bridge then they could just give the money to Holyrood and Stormont instead as there are other higher priorities. It has nothing to do with the Scottish gvt so of course it wasn't paid out of the Scottish gvt's budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 04:33 PM

I think the Labour Shadow Transport Minister hit the nail on the head when he said this was a totally unfeasible vanity project by a PM who has no respect for public finances. But hey easier to have a pop at the Scots instead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 05:36 PM

If you can cast you mind back as far as 31st January - I know, it seems a lifetime ago! - Dominic Cummings said Boris Johnson is obsessed with monuments in his memory “like the Roman emperors”.

It is easy to take this too literally: I am sure he would not object to statues and monuments, but major bridges, "Boris Bikes" and things like that are, I guess, equally acceptable to him.   Anything that keeps his fame in perpetuity will do, I expect. That may well be more relevant than whether a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland does either of them any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 06:15 AM

So Matt Hancock broke the ministerial code by favouring his family when awarding contracts, broke the lockdown rules by snogging his lover on camera (!) and broke the law by appointing Dido Harding. All this on top of partygate, illegal proroguing and deliberately cultivating a populist culture of inveterate lying. We could lament the demise of the Tories as the party of Laura Norder, but that could mean wistfully looking back with affection on Thatcherism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 11:02 AM

Perhaps not Thatcher but how about Ted Heath or John Major?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 04:27 PM

I find myself having to agree with Dave. We seem to have one poster deliberately posting inflammatory and abusive stuff to try to wind others up. Best to let the Mods do their work without comment from the rest of us, the thread will be a happier place.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

---

Specific references to racial slurs removed. Bonzo is on a little extended vacation. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 22 - 10:47 AM

Thanks Legolas.

You did say wood elf..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 22 - 06:57 AM

I see there's talk of a humble address being tabled in order to get the Sue Gray report published unexpurgated. I wonder how many Tories would back it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 22 - 04:30 AM

Let us hope Labour back it. There is an absurd convention of not supporting motions raised by other parties that has given trouble in the past. To refuse to this time would be about the most damaging stance Labour could take.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 22 - 02:37 PM

As we now know that Putin wants a return of the Russian Empire, including the Ukraine and Finland, and that destabilising Europe is a good way of making that happen, it makes a lot more sense of Moscow's interference in the Brexit debate. I always said that the whole leave campaign was built on lies and misinformation. We now know why Russian bots and trolls were involved as well. For those of you who are now feeling silly because leaving Europe has not provided the land of milk and honey that you were promised, please don't. It is not just you. Millions were not only duped by those wanting to make money out of chaos but we now know that Putin's imperialist goals played a major part in the biggest con trick of all time. Let us just hope it is not too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 07:30 AM

i feel tony blair began the destabilising of europe, or at least our place in the EU. by siding with George W Bush and invading Iraq, he chose to refuse the arguments of Germany and France et al to pursue the foolish goal of a special relationship with the usa.

then cameron chose to take on the threat to the tories by farage and his wee gang of idiots by holding the referendum. then no-one felt the need to campaign to remain too vigorously and turned a blind eye to russian money and meddling.

of course we can blame the wealthy who didn't want their privileges, bonusses and tax breaks challenged by the tougher regulations coming from Brussels.

for whatever disaster and misery in europe that is to come it's sickening to think that our liberal democracies have lost due to our own complacency and to the likes of farage, trump, johnson and others. i wouldn't credit them with the intelligence to plan this current situation but their willingness to go along with putin and his plan to destabilise the west has been traitorous and disastrous

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 12:48 PM

Labour Party seizes control of youth wing’s Twitter account

"Young Labour has had its Twitter account “restricted until further notice” by the Labour Party. Young Labour is the official youth section of the party, representing members under the age of 27.

A statement from the Young Labour Twitter account read, “We regret to inform you that access to the @YoungLabourUK Twitter account has been restricted until further notice. As an official channel for the Youth Wing of the Labour Party, we expect certain standards of behaviour from those with responsibility for this page’s output. In particular, it has become apparent that the account has recently become actively detrimental to the Party’s core objectives: to promote Labour candidates and policies, and to win elections.”

No similar posts have been made on other Young Labour social media channels at the time of publication."

And

"The move to restrict the Twitter account comes after Young Labour issued a statement on the Labour Party’s response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine that read, “especially concerned in this instance to see Keir Starmer pushing not only for further engagement with NATO, but celebrating it while attacking Stop The War and other pro-peace activists”. Young Labour also condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine – stating, “Young Labour condemns Vladimir Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The actions of Russia, the use of force and the contravention of international law is utterly reprehensible.”


++

The Young Labour statement can be read here:

Young Labour’s statement to Starmer concerning ‘macho posturing’ over Russia

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 12:58 PM

It's pretty clear that meddling in the whole Brexit process was part of Putin's long game.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 01:17 PM

I don't think that much meddling was needed.

The terms of the vote should have been made clearer from the start. Should have insisted on a clearer majority to leave.

There should have been agreement by all the parties on how they would implement a leave vote. We all saw the disruption caused when they tried to leave.

I still don't know what Cameron and his advisers were on when they thought they were going to win fairly easily. Might have helped if they had got out and about to speak to those outside London.

There was no proper debate. None of us knew what the terms of leaving would be. We could all guess but none of us could know for sure. Look how long the negotiations went on for before we finally left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 03:23 PM

Not just Britain leaving the EU, Stilly, but he had a hand in the Scotland leaving the UK referendum as well. Luckily the Scots were too canny to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 03:36 PM

He was probably behind the dirty foul committed on Mo Salah by Sergio Ramos which lost Liverpool the 2018 Champions League final.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 03:06 AM

Steve :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 05:12 AM

With all the turmoil at Chelsea football club (I usually call them Chelski, but I'll refrain for now), he could well have a hand in their prospective defeat to Liverpool in the League Cup final later today. I hope not. I want to see a great game.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 11:44 AM

I see petty prattle is at it again. I was quite impressed when she answered a direct question about whether a specific Ukrainian refugee would be allowed to enter the UK and she instantly gave an unequivocal "yes". Wow, thought, never seen that before. Of course the illusion was blown apart when her own office confirmed that she was telling lies.

Why is it that, as crisis follows crisis and scandal follows scandal we are saddled with the most incompetent, corrupt and dishonest shower that has ever led our country?

Come on you Tories out there. Justify your party's antics if you can. BTW, Corbyn would have been worse is speculation, not justification

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 11:55 AM

Why is it that this forum is subject to constant lefty drivel?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 12:13 PM

yes dave, this is far from the first time we have asked for sensible, coherent arguments say, for brexit, or for other tory policies. Sadly, we can't attract anyone with the wherewithal to defend reactionary shortsightedness in any coherent way. see above

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 01:05 PM

Agreed, Pete.

Is that all you have bonzo? Personal attacks? No justification for constant lies, mismanagement and corruption?

Doesn't surprise me really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 01:28 PM

BBC Radio 4 - Law in Action

Worth a listen for the following item:

"Is our democracy being eroded by the government, by reducing parliament’s opportunities for scrutiny? Two reports from the House of Lords Select Committees, titled "Government by Diktat" and "Democracy Denied", say there is an urgent need to return power to parliament. They worry about power grabs and an increased use of secondary legislation - ie laws made by ministers, that can’t be amended by MPs or peers. One recent piece of secondary legislation made it legal in England for children in care aged 16 and above to be housed in unsupervised adult accommodation such as hostels. Joshua hears from a care-experienced writer what that was like, and the risks that vulnerable children might face in such housing. The law is now being challenged in the courts."

++

The following article at Constitutional Law Matters
gives links to both reports, though I could not get the PDF for the Government By Diktat report to open. An online report can be found here:

Government by Diktat

It is a trend that various governments have used in the last 40 years. Of course in the last few years with both Brexit and covid, it has been used even more often.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 01:43 PM

It's a worrying trend, Rain Dog. Putin seems to have started it. Trump, emboldened by his Russian pals, tried it in the US and has, I hope, failed. Bozo and his cronies here would love to grab that sort of power but either they are inept, we would not put up with it or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 02:00 PM

it's very inspiring to see the newly invigorated european parliament these days and the deep desire of the ukranians hoping to join. it seems a long way from the grubby and insular english parliament. is it too much to hope that the labour party might have a rethink, a bit of principle and a return to sanity and fully embrace a return to sanity in the EU? obviously, the tory party are a hopeless case but if the uk is ever going to get back on its feet we have to be able to rely on a competent labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 04:26 PM

From The Guardian

John McDonnell and Diane Abbott pull out of Stop the War rally

"Labour backbenchers including John McDonnell and Diane Abbott have pulled out of attending a Stop the War rally in London on Wednesday amid pressure from Keir Starmer over the group’s stance on Ukraine.

The Labour leader told his party’s MPs on Monday there was “no place” in the party for anyone drawing a “false equivalence” between the actions of Nato and those of Moscow.

Labour sources had suggested that if backbenchers made any comments at the Wednesday evening rally that were critical of Nato or sought to blame the western alliance for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, it could lead to the whip being withdrawn.

McDonnell, the former shadow chancellor, subsequently released a statement saying he would not attend the event at Conway Hall in London despite being listed as a speaker.

“People are dying on the streets of Ukrainian cities. This is not the time to be distracted by political arguments here,” he told the website LabourList. “Nothing is more important at this time. Nothing should distract us from that. So I won’t feed into that distraction by going tonight.”

Abbott, the former shadow home secretary, told the Guardian she would not be attending either.

During the event, a man waving a Ukrainian flag interrupted the end of Jeremy Corbyn’s speech. The man was then forcibly removed from Conway Hall."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 04:57 PM

Hilary Benn makes speeches, Corbyn just waffles drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 05:29 PM

More incisive argument from Bonzo

Still no justification for the incompetence and corruption of the current administration though

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 02:17 AM

From The Guardian

String of Lords defeats reflects concerns over PM and legislation

"In the aftermath of Boris Johnson’s landslide 2019 general election win, many assumed the political balance within the House of Lords had swung squarely behind the Conservatives after a decade of ennoblements by Tory prime ministers.

David Cameron and Theresa May had between them elevated 136 Conservatives to the upper chamber over the proceeding nine years. By November 2021, Johnson had ennobled 83 people to become life peers, 42 of whom are Conservatives, while many others were fellow Brexit supporters.

And so what has followed has been a surprise. Official figures show that in Johnson’s first parliamentary session from December 2019 to March 2021, the Lords defeated the government on 114 occasions. This is the highest number of defeats in a single parliamentary session since Harold Wilson’s government in 1975-76 was defeated 126 times.

On Monday, the policies at the heart of the Johnson government’s nationality and borders bill were defeated in the Lords on five occasions.

The vote removed a key plank of the bill, known as clause 11, which would have stripped refugees arriving here via irregular routes of full rights such as a right to a family reunion and access to a public safety net. Peers voted by 204 to 126, defeating the clause by a majority of 78."

And

"There is also concern on the red benches that there is a tendency for ministers to make laws that are constructed to avoid line-by-line scrutiny.

Two Lords reports issued in November, one entitled Government by Diktat and the other Democracy Denied, warned that bills often provided only a broad outline of the law, with the details to be filled in later through secondary legislation, which cannot be amended and can become law without parliamentary debate.

Dr Hannah White, the deputy director of the Institute for Government, said the growing number of government defeats appeared to reflect concerns about the government’s laws. “This could indicate concerns in the House of Lords about the quality of the legislation and the powers that ministers are giving themselves in primary legislation,” she said.

After so-called “ping pong” between the two houses – when legislation is pushed back and forth between the upper and lower chamber – the government of the day often pushes laws through eventually, despite Lords defeats."

++

It is worthwhile reading the article in full, as it follows on from my earlier post a couple of days ago.

As is the usual way in this country, we muddle along for so many years without making any changes. The two major parties are alike in that they are happy to leave things as they are. Sometimes the actions of the Lords suits them but frustrates their opponents. Other times it works the other way.

What a carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 02:33 AM

We are living in strange times.

John Crace in The Guardian

A knighthood for Gavin Williamson? The UK has its own comedian as PM

Some reward for a friend, huh? Certainly not for his work in government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 05:04 AM

Just the sort of paranoia that Putin suffers from

Boris Johnson rules out waiving visa rules for Ukrainian refugees

Rather than do the humanitarian thing, lift all barriers and ask questions later, the complete dick in chief thinks believes that the UK will be inundated with Russian spies disguised as Ukrainian refugees.

There must be enough white powder in that cabinet office to float the whole population of Ukraine here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 05:22 AM

Of all the most astonishingly ridiculous things Boris Bunter has done, knighting the benighted must rank among the top, er, more than several...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 09:01 AM

I think Petty Prattle is outdoing the liar in chief at the moment. What a gross insult to the millions of people in the country who want to help Ukrainians in whatever way they can. She just lies through her teeth and thinks she can get away with it. I hope the antics of this current administration are fully remembered come election time. If Steer Calmer does nothing else, he should make sure every man and his dog remember the incompitence, lies and corruption that have become commonplace at Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 01:05 PM

i see her maj is not so well these days, i wonder if the government is waiting for her demise as a good day to bury bad news (see sue gray, p94)

seriously though, what could possibly be causing the delay for the 2 reports? maybe all our available met officers are on standby to storm into loads of newly-vacated properties of very wealthy russians in the event of some opportunistic crustie shinning up a drainpipe round the back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 03:16 PM

I hope the gutter left is happy with itself interfering in Akshata Murthy's tax affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 03:30 PM

I seem to recall that the Queen 'decided" to pay tax. Now the missus of The Chancellor has "decided" to pay tax. Great to have the choice, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 04:14 PM

Aren't you forgetting the Double Taxation Treaty with Indiaaaah??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 06:19 PM

Yes, and that tax arrangement allows her, eventually, to avoid £280 million in inheritance tax and about two or three million per annum net in ordinary tax. She is twice as rich as the Queen and has about four extremely luxurious residences (that we know of). The pretence that her finances are completely separate from her hubby is a laugh. Let me put it to you this way, Bonzo. If you are a wannabe benefits claimant, married to someone with savings, you're stuffed. You can't claim even if their savings are incredibly modest. That applies to the poorest in society. But it doesn't apply to the uber-rich like Sunak and his missus. You hardly need to be an ultra-lefty to see how bloody unfair that is, do you? One more thing: her dad founded that company in which, without doing any work, she now has a stake worth £700 million. OK for some, eh, Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 04:59 AM

Tax legislation is what it is, and thank goodness for Double-Taxation Treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 05:20 AM

Good ol Jimmy Savile was never benighted, beheaded or respected for his Trump like behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 07:38 AM

"Tax legislation is what it is, and thank goodness for Double-Taxation Treaties."

It does need some serious reforms. It needs to be simplified as well. Both major parties seem reluctant to do that, probably for different reasons.

Now do you think Sunak might have considered reforming the non-dom rules? Do you think he ever asked his wife about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 08:43 AM

Why should he, it is there to encourage investment in the UK. Even if non-dom status was abolished and such people are taxed on world income in the UK, they would never be double taxed on overseas income because of Double-Taxation Treaties, whereby foreign tax suffered is deducted from the UK tax liability.

It is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 08:51 AM

Liar, liar pants on fire.

From the BBC

Johnson and Sunak to be fined over lockdown parties

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 09:29 AM

Sunak is now toast. Johnson will fight the next election and win it. Just my predictions (as a Labour Party member), that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 10:07 AM

"It is what it is."

I expect that's what they said about hanging little boys for sheep-stealing. Until it wasn't what it was any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 10:16 AM

”Sunak is now toast. Johnson will fight the next election and win it.”

I hope you’re right about Sunak. I’m afraid you’re right about ‘Teflon Suit’ Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 03:46 AM

On sanctions and the likelihood of global disaster caused by a man-made shortage of diesel fue
~ "Amid the ongoing global inflation crisis, NATO heads of state and mainstream media repeat a mantra that high energy prices are a direct result of Putin’s actions in Ukraine since end of February. The reality is that it is the western sanctions that are responsible. Those sanctions including cutting SWIFT interbank access for key Russian banks and some of the most severe sanctions ever imposed, are hardly having an impact on the military actions in Ukraine. What many overlook is the fact that they are increasingly impacting the economies of the West, especially the EU and USA. A closer look at the state of the global supply of diesel fuel is alarming. But Western sanctions planners at the US Treasury and the EU know fully well what they are doing. And it bodes ill for the world economy.
While most of us rarely think about diesel fuel as anything other than a pollutant, in fact it is essential to the entire world economy in a way few energy sources are. The director general of Fuels Europe, part of the European Petroleum Refiners Association, stated recently, “… there is a clear link between diesel and GDP, because almost everything that goes into and out of a factory goes using diesel.”
At the end of the first week of Russia’s military action in Ukraine, with no sanctions yet specific to Russia’s diesel fuel exports, the European diesel price was already at a thirty-year high. It had nothing to do with war. It had to do with the draconian global covid lockdowns since March 2020 and the simultaneous dis-investment by Wall Street and global financial firms in oil and gas companies, so-called Green Agenda or ESG. Almost on day one of Russian troop actions in Ukraine, two of the world’s largest oil companies, BP and Shell, both British, stopped deliveries of diesel fuel to Germany claiming fear of supply shortages. Russia supplied some 60 to 70% of all EU diesel before the Ukraine war.
In 2020 Russia was the world’s second largest exporter of diesel fuel behind USA, shipping more than 1 million barrels daily. Most of it, some 70%, went to the EU and Turkey. France was the largest importer, followed by Germany and UK. In France some 76% of all road vehicles—cars, trucks—use diesel.The EU diesel demand is far higher than in the US as most cars also use the more economical and efficient diesel fuel. In the first week of April the EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen proudly announced new sanctions against Russian energy that would begin with a ban on coal. The EU is the largest importer of Russian coal. Oil and gas she said would follow at a later date. That foolish move will merely boost costs of energy, already at record high, for most of the EU, as it will force oil and gas prices far higher.
At the beginning of the Ukraine crisis global stocks of diesel fuel were already the lowest since 2008 as the covid lockdowns had done major damage to the demand-supply situation of oil and gas production. Now the stage is set for an unprecedented crisis in diesel. The consequences will be staggering for the world economy.
Diesel Moves World Trade
Diesel engines have the highest engine efficiency of conventional motors. They are based on the principle of compression developed in 1897 by Rudolf Diesel. Because of their greater efficiency and greater mileage per gallon, diesel fuels almost all freight truck motors. It fuels most all farm equipment from tractors to harvesting machines. It is widely used in the EU, almost 50% for auto fuel as it is far more fuel efficient than gasoline engines. It is used in most all heavy mining machines such as Caterpillar earth movers. It is used in construction equipment. Diesel engines have replaced steam engines on all non-electrified railroads in the world, especially freight trains. Diesel is used in some electric power generation and in most all heavy military vehicles.
A global shortage in diesel fuel, temporary or longer-term, is therefore a catastrophic event. Goods cannot be moved from container ports to inland destinations. Without diesel fuel trucks cannot deliver food to the supermarket, or anything else for that matter. The entire supply chain is frozen. And there is no possibility to substitute gasoline in a diesel engine without ruining the engine.
Until the ill-conceived global covid lockdowns of industry and transportation that began in March 2020, the demand and supply of diesel fuel was well balanced. The sudden lockdowns however collapsed diesel demand for truck transport, autos, construction, even farming. Unprofitable refineries were closed. Capacity declined. Now as world production returns to a semblance of pre-covid normal, diesel reserve stocks worldwide are dangerously low, especially in the EU which is the world’s largest diesel consumer, but also the USA.
Rationing?
At the start of this year world diesel stocks were already dangerously low and that drove prices sky-high. As of February, 2022 before impact of the Ukraine war, diesel and related stocks in the US were 21% below the pre-covid seasonal average. In the EU stocks were 8% or 35 million barrels below the pre-covid average level. In Singapore, the Asian hub stocks were 32% below normal. Combined all three regions’ diesel stocks were alarmingly low, some 110 million barrels below the same point last year.
Between January 2021 and January 2022 EU diesel fuel prices had almost doubled, and that, before the Ukraine sanctions. There were several reasons, but primary was the soaring price of crude oil and supply disruptions owing to global covid lockdowns and the subsequent resumption of world trade flows. To add to the problem, in early March the Chinese central government imposed a ban on its exports of diesel fuel, to “ensure energy security” amid Western sanctions on Russia. Add to that the recent Biden administration ban on imports of all Russian oil and gas, which in 2021 included an estimated 20% of all Russian heavy oil exports. At the same time the EU in its ever-ideological wisdom, is finalizing a ban on imports of Russian coal with bans on Russian crude oil, diesel fuel and gas reportedly to follow.
On April 4 average price per liter of diesel in Germany was €2.10. On December 27, 2021 it was €1.50, a rise of 40% in weeks. Following the unprecedented USA and EU sanctions against Russia following the Ukraine military campaign after February 24, more and more Western oil companies and oil traders are refusing to handle Russian crude oil or diesel fuel for fear of reprisals. This is certain to escalate so long as fighting in Ukraine continues.
The CEO of the Rotterdam-based Vitol, the world’s largest independent energy trading company , warned on March 27 that rationing of diesel fuel in the coming months globally was increasingly likely. He noted, “Europe imports about half of its diesel from Russia and about half of its diesel from the Middle East. That systemic shortfall of diesel is there.”
On April 7, David McWilliams, a leading Irish economist formerly with the Irish national bank, sounded an alarming note. “Not only is oil going up, diesel is going up and there’s a real threat diesel will run out in Western Europe over the course of the next two or three weeks, or maybe before that…We import a significant amount of our diesel, it comes from two refineries in the UK where it’s first processed. Those refineries do not have any crude at the moment. So we are basically running the economy on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour basis.” He added: ‘We have not just an oil crisis, we have an energy crisis the likes of which we haven’t seen in 50 years.” According to him the reason diesel stocks are so low is that the EU countries found it far cheaper to outsource oil and diesel to Russia with its huge supply.
The situation in the USA is not better. For political reasons the true state of the diesel fuel crisis is reportedly being downplayed by the Biden administration and the EU. Inflation is already at 40 year highs in the US. What the unfolding global diesel fuel crisis will mean, barring a major turnaround, is a dramatic impact on all forms of truck and auto transportation, farming, mining and the like. It will spell catastrophe for an already failing world economy. Yet governments like the German “Ampel” (traffic light) coalition, with their insane Zero Carbon agenda, and their plans to phase out oil, coal and gas, or the Biden cabal, privately see the exploding energy prices as further argument to abandon hydrocarbons like oil for unreliable, costly wind and solar. The real industrial interconnected global economy is not like a game of lego toys. It is highly complex and finely tuned.That fine tuning is being systematically destroyed, and all evidence is that it is deliberate. Welcome to the Davos Great Reset eugenics agenda." ~
F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine “ - - - - - - - ”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 04:27 AM

Here in the South East, it is the Just Stop Oil  activists who are responsible for the diesel and petrol shortages. All adds to the fun that we are having at the moment.

Essex Police make more arrests over fuel protests

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 08:40 AM

Why don't you just provide us a link, Dick? Or, if you cannot manage that, at least give us the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 09:13 AM

It an article by F William Engdahl in the New Eastern Outlook which according to Wiki is "is a pseudo-academic publication of the Russian Academy of Science’s Institute of Oriental Studies that promotes disinformation and propaganda focused primarily on the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. It combines pro-Kremlin views of Russian academics with anti U.S. views of Western fringe voices and conspiracy theorists."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 09:24 AM

Thanks Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 10:12 AM

Not really the kind of source that I would quote from !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 02:47 AM

I know that there are still some Tory supporters out there. Here is your invitation to justify why Johnson is still in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 03:55 AM

the source is mentioned at the bottom of the article for feck sake.
but it is the kind of source i quote from to get a balnce between western propoganda and Russian and propaganda.
Dave, if you had bothered to scroll to the bottom, i gave the source
F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine “ - - - - - - - ”.
*
PS, even a Google search will not link directly to this article, because of the location of the hosting website, which is now deemed conspiratorial despite it being run by a cultural research institute.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 04:21 AM

of course it is, that is what freedom of speech is supposed to be about , if it is quietly suppressed as facebook appear to doing, we are no better than the Russians.
who is it that has written this on wiki
"is a pseudo-academic publication of the Russian Academy of Science’s Institute of Oriental Studies that promotes disinformation and propaganda focused primarily on the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. It combines pro-Kremlin views of Russian academics with anti U.S. views of Western fringe voices and conspiracy theorists."
Could it be Establishment Western Propogandists? why is this a source that is considered by wiki to be unreliable, could it be that it is offering a different perspective, so much for freedom of speech

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 04:33 AM

here is what the western propaganda news has to say on deisel shortages from reuters[ again this is acknowledged at bottom of article if people are not too lazy

UPDATE 2-China urges state refiners to halt April fuel exports, sources say

By Chen Aizhu

3 Min Read

(Adds quotes, market reaction, context)

SINGAPORE, March 9 (Reuters) - Beijing has told Chinese state refiners to consider suspending exports of gasoline and diesel in April as the Ukraine war heightens concern of shortages, three sources with knowledge of the matter said on Wednesday.

The global market is reeling from the impact of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine that has led to western sanctions on Russia, the world’s leading supplier of crude and products.

The prospect of a further reduction in Asian exports helped to drive refining margins for some products to record highs.

Asian supplies have also been reduced by outages because of the refinery maintenance season and action by the Chinese government earlier in the year to prevent excessive production.

The three sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said companies were likely to scale back overseas shipments further in April following reduced exports in March.

The National Development and Reform Commission did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

One of the sources said the cuts were aimed at preventing a shortage as independent refiners were under pressure to process less because of the surge in crude prices.

Another said, exports might not be halted completely.

“My feeling is companies were told to hold off talks for new export deals,” the source said.

Russia is the world’s top exporter of crude and oil products combined, at around 7 million barrels per day, or 7% of global supply, according to the International Energy Agency.

Concern about disruption of supplies has driven global oil prices to 14-year highs, potentially squeezing profits for oil refiners, but demand for products is such that refining margins for several oil products in Asia hit all-time highs on Wednesday.

The Asian gasoil crack, or the profit of processing benchmark crude oil Dubai into diesel fuel, hit a record of $44 a barrel and that for aviation fuel also touched a new high at $36 a barrel.

VLSFO margins jumped to an all-time high of $31.79 a barrel, while gasoline margins GL92-SIN-CRK climbed to $16.71 a barrel, the strongest level since October 2021, and up 46 cents from the last close.

China reduced refined fuel exports by a third in the first two months of the year after Beijing in January cut export quotas to discourage plants from over-processing.

China in January released 13 million tonnes of refined fuel quotas - consisting mostly of diesel, gasoline and aviation fuel - under the first batch for 2022, down 56% from the first allotment of 2021.

Reporting by Chen Aizhu, Muyu Xu and Florence Tan; Additional reporting by Koustav Samanta and Mohi Narayan; Editing by Louise Heavens and Barbara Lewis

Our Standards: The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 04:48 AM

oh yes and then we had BBC PROPAGANDA, stating that deisel shrtages in the uk were caused by protestors, maybe the deisel shortages were caused by all 3 that it was a combination of factors

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 06:08 AM

Dave:
I know that there are still some Tory supporters out there. Here is your invitation to justify why Johnson is still in office.

Why is he in office?
Partly because he is doing a good, and important, job where it matters. He, or the people chosen by him have put us in a good position with regards Covid. Yes, there were problems with overspending on supplies at a time when all the world was chasing the same suppliers.
He appears to be doing a good job on Ukraine, where he has pissed off Putin, and got useful supplies (arms) to Ukraine before the EU (that much-loved establishment) got off their backsides.

Should he resign because of receiving a fixed-penalty fine?
You may think yes, I think no.

Are the Labour party trying to blow this out of proportion? Clearly.
Tuesday night, on the Welsh news Mark Drakeford (First Minister, Wales) was calling for his resignation on the basis that he had broken laws he helped create. This ignores the fact that the Welsh government have been steadily reducing speed limits "for health reasons". But Drakeford took no action when the Welsh Health Minister recently got banned for speeding (under the 'points' system, so not a first offence). Hypocrisy like this is not uncommon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 06:23 AM

He should resign, HE lied to parliament and thinks he is above the law

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 07:37 AM

it has very little to do with parties. it is everything to do with him lying to parliament and to us. and for the complete contempt for the people of the uk - every day another lie, another hapless minister wheeled out to obfuscate and lie for him. Have these people no shame at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 07:42 AM

It looks like even Johnson is claiming he needs to correct the record for misleading Parliament about the parties.

Boris Johnson has promised to address parliament next week about his fine for breaching Covid laws and “set the record straight in any way that I can” on his previous claims that no rules were broken." (Guardian, live report)

This will be an interesting statement. If it restricts itself to the party in which he was fined, a follow up question of "What about the rest?" will be inevitable .On the other hand he certainly won't want to admit to things he hasn't yet been fined for. He will probably go for apologising for the one fine but refusing to comment on the rest, which will not help him much if fines for them do arrive, particularly if his apology claimed to set the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 10:27 AM

Dick, long copy/paste posts are hard to read and are probably against copyright. Post a link and a few quotes, don't put the whole long thing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 10:53 AM

Dick, you gave the author but the only other reference was the vague mention of an online magazine with no name given. Not really a source is it and as you seem to have cut and pasted from that magazine it would have been easy for you to paste the URL as well. And what SRS says.

Nigel, no I don't think he should resign because of a fixed penalty. He should resign for lying and misleading parliament

There was no party
There was a meeting but I was not there
I may have been there but I broke no laws
It may have been a party but I was not aware of that
OK, I am sorry. I was there but it was not against the rules
I was only doing the same as all those doctors and nurses do
I was busy and did not realise I was there, that it was a party and illegal
Right. I was there. It was a party. It was illegal. But I did it by accident
I cannot resign or Putin will come and rape your aunty

Give us a break. I could repost the link to Boris Johnson lies again 8f you like. I'm sure it must have grown nearly as long as his nose by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 11:03 AM

I should also add, seeing as I mentioned him, that Putin got to and stays in power by lying and misinformation. Bozo may not be quite in his league but with petty prattle ramping up laws against dissent we can see where this is going. Lying to parliament and the public is an undemocratic disgrace but he has got away with his lies for so long I think he really believes he is untouchable. If he doesn't jump, he should be pushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 11:23 AM

it has very little to do with parties

It has everything to do with sticking to the rules that the government put in place for everyone else:- "Do as I say, not as I do!".

We may be out of lockdown but the pandemic hasn't gone away. If things take a turn for the worse and lockdown has to be reimposed, who is going to listen to Boris? He has lost his authority on the subject.

If he didn't realise that he was breaking his own rules, he is incompetent. If he did, he knowingly misled Parliament. In either case, he should go. His replacement can deal with the situation in Ukraine.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 12:25 PM

Dave, The source was mentionedand his curriculm vitae, you could not be botherd to read.
what right have i got to edit some one elses article, that ie a form of censorship,
Censorship is when you use your position of power -- any power -- to shut people up and/or control the information that other people can access.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 12:41 PM

I freely admit I did not bother to read the text, Sandman. I don't know what the original looked like, but it was probably divided into clear paragraphs. I read a lot of long things online - I read Hansard, for heaven's sake! - but huge dumps of text like that are near illegible. After the first few sentences I stopped bothering.

I agree with SRS: summarising what you think are the key points, then linking to the original article is far better, to my tastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 02:56 PM

Dick, the source, provided by Raggytash, was the New Eastern Outlook, mentioned nowhere in the C&P. Now you not only expect everyone to read poorly formated text but also to go and look up the author's CV. Get everyone else to do your work or simply post a link to your source. Your choice. I only know what I would do and how it looks to others. I shall leave it at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 03:05 PM

The problem with lies is that everyone does it. And defining lies, when you hold up a fine grain analyzer, becomes a matter of interpretation and opinion. Not unlike the famous quote about pornography by U.S. Supreme Potter Stewart in 1964: "I know it when I see it."

I think one of the things that makes us hold some folks in public positions in contempt is the quality of their lies. For us Americans there has been a famous distinction between the supporters and the opponents of the ex-President Trmp. This is a man who seems to know no limits and be unconcerned with supporting evidence. Not long after his election came the absurd but defensible saying that his enemies took him literally but not seriously, and his supporters took him seriously but not literally.

YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 05:04 PM

I copied it as it was on facebook , so Dave , try a little harder. ,i

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 08:59 PM

what right have i got to edit some one elses article, that ie a form of censorship,

No, it's theft if you don't treat it properly. Summarize, quote, but don't copy and paste the entire thing. Share the URL and people can find the article in context. Even Facebook posts.

We weren't able to oust Trump (twice!) with his heinous acts, so it seems like misbehavior of officials in high office is entirely normalized even in the democratic world. Nixon resigned with the thread of impeachment, Trump didn't seem to understand how serious impeachment is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 22 - 05:35 PM

bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 22 - 07:58 PM

Dick, please listen to this without getting upset. You, and a few others, frequently copy and paste articles you have read.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that except that you should, as a matter of honesty, indicate that it is a quote and not your own word and secondly where the quote came from.

Your last quote, to my mind, was from a very dubious source.

Please note this is not an attack on you, it is an observation on your, and others, style of posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 22 - 08:12 PM

I'm bloody useless at doing links and I can no longer afford even the cheaper types of low-rise nylon knickers in Aldi six-packs to get in a twist, but here's my personal unwritten rules:

Do a bit of a quote. Pick out the good bits but be honest enough to at least mention bits that will not further your case.

Give enough info for the reader to easily access the place the quote came from.

Never refer to stuff from behind a paywall which you crucially expect your reader to read but which they can't unless they pay money.

Tell the readership why you've quoted what you've quoted, why it's relevant and why (if you do) agree with it and how it furthers the debate.

Do not quote more than will fit on a page of Mudcat. I confidently predict that, if you do, it will not be read).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 01:58 AM

the source is no more dubious than any wetesrn news site including the BBC. do you honestly believe they are giving you neutral news if you do you are living in cloud cuckoo land
Why should i bother with people who are too lazy?
its ok I will not bother any more, i will share it on facebook this section of the site is pointless and is moderated by one person who has openly said
".but I'm getting to the point where I wouldn't mind us, or other countries, getting involved in kicking Putin's ass, and never mind the threat of
world war" anything. Except maybe not tempting China to get involved." what a statement,how can you have a world war without china being involved.
its ok you are welcome to such moderators
I am out of here,it makes more sense to talk to the wall

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 02:04 AM

Bye Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 02:16 AM

”I'm bloody useless at doing links”

Steve, it’s very simple and straightforward if you use this Mudcat Linkifier. You just copy and paste the address of the piece you’re linking to in the first (URL) box, type a name for it in the second (Text) box, click on ‘Make Link’, click on ‘Test’ to check it works OK then, if it works OK, click on ‘Copy to clipboard’. Then go to the ‘Reply To Thread’ box in the thread, right click where you want to put the Link, and click on ‘Paste’.

Bingo! You’re done…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 04:10 AM

Doesn't always work in at least 2 situations though. If the link is too long it truncates it and if it is an internal link to Mudcat the URL has
Mudcat twice. Fixable but messy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Monique
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 05:49 AM

Sorry to interfere but here it is. I first found the "href" thing hard to remember but now I've typed it so many times that I keep the picture in my mind. You English speakers can remember something like "Happy Rainy Easter Friday -or whatever suits you best. Not really rainy this year for us, it's around 25°C and supposed to be 28 later in the afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 07:51 AM

Thank you Monique. A ray of sunshine in a bleak discussion :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 09:48 AM

"Horny rhinos engender fear."

21.5C here, easily the warmest day of the year so far. The sun blazeth.

I could occasionally do a link, though I'm not a big fan. I'd rather pick bits out to quote, tell you where I saw it then discuss. I won't read any link from anyone that isn't backed up in some way by the post's author. In a discussion I want to know what we all think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 10:31 AM

Dave and Dick and others - it actually isn't okay to copy and paste the content from other sites. That is a copyright infringement unless it has stated otherwise that it is free to share.

Fair use means short quotes, then post the URL. Those of you using Windows computers can go into your Windows or Office tools and add Sticky Notes to your desktop. I keep one in the corner of my screen that has a few pieces of code I use in different tasks (on various web sites where I work) and just select and copy it to paste into the form I'm working on. Create the empty shell of a URL and place it there so you can copy it when needed. Then add in the Mudcat info in the appropriate place once you've pasted it. I long since memorized the code for a standard URL,

---

but that is how one of the mudelves saves a few keystrokes. We make a few exceptions, usually to do with obituaries, and some of the content Joe posts to do with music scholarship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 12:03 PM

What a load of bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 12:38 PM

”Doesn't always work in at least 2 situations though. If the link is too long it truncates it and if it is an internal link to Mudcat the URL has
Mudcat twice. Fixable but messy.”

Dave, the Linkifier I linked to is not the standard one from Mudcat, it’s a special version created by one of our members (I forget precisely whom!) and it automatically takes care of the ‘long link’ issue. I have it saved as a Favourite in my Browser on my PC and iPad, and I always use it now because it’s more user-friendly than the built-in Mudcat Blickifier.

I haven’t tried using it make an internal to link to Mudcat, so I can’t comment on that issue.

I still believe it’s no more complicated than the lazy method of copy/pasting complete pieces, or posting non-functioning links as used by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 12:41 PM

And, of course, posting a functioning link (‘Blicky’) is far more economical with bandwidth and server-space than clogging threads up with enormous, un-formatted copy/pastes that no-one in their right mind is going to be dragged into wading through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 12:43 PM

Perhaps Maggie can recall whose contribution is the Linkifier I linked to?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 02:40 PM

Ah, Ok. Thanks, John. I just use the standard one as I have learned to get round the issues so far :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 04:52 PM

I just thought that, as it’s a more user-friendly hack than the built-in Blickifier for creating properly functioning links, Steve might get on with it better - it’s certainly no more complicated than a block copy/paste from an outside source into a post and, for the reasons stated, it produces a much more satisfactory result.

IMHO, of course - OMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 07:53 PM

I can just tell you which Guardian article I got my quote, or opinion, or whatever, from. Up to you whether you look at the whole thing. I'll always tell you why I've posted it. I don't like links much because they all too often exonerate the poster from properly dissecting and discussing the content. I repeat: if a link is posted without support from the poster, I will not read it. This is a forum for discussing what we all think, not what some remote journalist thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 04:47 AM

If breaking covid rules is a non issue (as the tory gutter press suggest), then why, when Johnson was standing on his podium making announcements about rules we have to follow did he not announce to the public that he had no intention of following the law himself, or at least say that he was still attending social gatherings but that did not matter because we are inferior species to the tory party master race and that it is our duty to obey our betters and not question what they do or don't do?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 05:27 AM

Peter Hennessy, a crossbench peer and professor of history, was speaking about this on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 this morning. He sees partygate and the Johnson lies surrounding it as a fundamental threat to our constitution. Not for the first time, Johnson plays fast and loose with the Ministerial Code, not seeing breaches of it as resigning issues. Hennessy is an angry man and it's a good listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 06:15 AM

Law and order can be maintained in two ways: by common consent, where as citizens we agree to follow rules for the common good, or imposed by brute force. If the self-ordained 'upper classes; exempt themselves from law and order can they reasonably expect the rest of the population to consent to live by the same rules themselves. It is clear that law (applied to the lower masses, and not the elite masters) can only be enforced - so if this isn't descent into fascism, what is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 06:25 AM

BWM, DaveRo wrote the link maker you use. He also provides Mudcat Browser Tools

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 07:23 AM

Thanks Jon, I had the name on the tip of my typing-finger but just couldn’t quite get it! His Linkifier is a nice piece of work, much smoother and friendlier than the basic Mudcat Blickifier.

I’ll check out the link you gave above.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:07 PM

I hear the Whips are saying Tories should vote against referring Johnson to the standards committee because it has a Labour chair.

You would think they would be more confident as it has a Conservative majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:25 PM

Does it have a Conservative majority?
It has four Conservative members, two Labour, one SNP, and seven 'lay members' whose political leanings don't appear to be listed: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 06:20 PM

It looks as if the composition of the select committee may be irrelevant, if Newsnight's report is correct: they suggest there is an intention to amend Labour's motion to essentially remove all reference to having the committee investigate whether Johnson misled the house, but instead to comment on Ukraine and/or the cost of living.

It looks like we are reliant on the speaker to decide if such an amendment should be selected.   However, as we have yet to see either the motion or any suggested amendments, we may be getting ahead of ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 11:53 AM

That was a fairly long Parliamentary debate to set through, but worth it in some ways. I regret that it was passed unopposed, but I can see why the Conservatives might think that the least damaging option.

Attendance is often poor at these events but it looks like for quite a long time there were only 5 MPs on the government benches. Even so, there were very few people who spoke in support of the PM.

There a few rather odd theological discussions, with Steve Baker throwing chapter and verse into the debate from both the Old and New Testaments, then later Chris Bryant riffing on the Biblical nature of forgiveness and how it does not mean freedom from consequence.

Many of the speeches drifted off topic despite admonishments from the Speaker(s) into Johnson's wider dishonesty rather than the deliberately narrow instances listed in the motion and quite a few were largely reading out the problems their constituents had. These are important, of course, but not actually to do with the strict motion.

The fact the motion passed unopposed gave a somewhat anticlimatic end to the debate, but I think we just not move to a new scene in the drama.

Opinions from anyone else who watched it are welcomed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 01:29 PM

It was interesting to see that MPs were allowed to refer to Johnson as a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 02:25 PM

Steve Baker said "I do not like forgiving the Prime Minister. My spirit is much more full of wrath and vengeance. I feel much more Ezekiel 7:3 about this issue, and I invite everybody to look that up"

For those which can't be bothered here it is:
New  International Version
The end is now upon you, and I will unleash my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 02:45 PM

Oh do come along, Mr. Baker - don't beat about the bush, spit it out man, tell us what you really think!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:42 PM

"Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations"

Thank you King James!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 06:10 PM

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

Samuel L Jackson. Pulp Fiction

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 06:13 PM

To be is to do - Socrates

To do is to be - Sartre

Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra

:-)

Now back to the fray...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:51 AM

This related back to a comment Nigel made earlier about the composition of the committee:


Who sits on [the privileges committee]?
A cross-party group of seven MPs make up the committee. They are the exact same members as sit on the standards committee, given the two used to be combined until 2010.

But unlike the standards committee, the privileges committee does not have any extra lay members – independent people who are not politicians – appointed to sit on it.


(From a Guardian 'explainer')

Given Chris Bryant recused himself, it is not clear to me at the moment whether in the case the committee will have six members, or whether a temporary replacement of Bryant will be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 05:54 AM

But I was responding to your comment saying that Boris was being referred to the standards committee for which I gave the make-up to correct your claim of a Conservative bias.
You had not said that he was being referred to the privileges committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 06:56 AM

My interest was in making sure people knew there are not laypeople on the committee that will be investigating, and that it does have a Conservative majority. No more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 06:59 AM

Or more precisely, that was the point of making the 22 Apr 22 - 01:51 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 07:52 AM

Are you still defending the lying toad Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:07 AM

I’m pretty sure The Lying Toad’s days are numbered. Reading (and listening) between the lines, I’m thinking rumblings of dissent are growing in the ranks of the Tory Party, and he’ll be out on his big fat arse in the not-too-distant.

And I have a strong suspicion that his replacement won’t be any of The Usual Suspects - Gove, Sunak, Patel, Rees-Mogg, Truss - but will be a relative ‘outsider’. I keep seeing Hunt’s name mentioned as one of the quietly-lurking threats to any of those becoming Johnson’s replacement and, if he becomes PM, I can foresee that The Usual Suspects will be toast as far as Cabinet membership goes. Pretty sure that Hunt would be looking to re-establish good relations with the EU, to become ‘The Man Who Saved Brexit’, so Brexiteers would be likely to get short shrift if and when he sets up his Cabinet.

I could be way, way off the mark, but I live in hopes…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:28 AM

I agree that whoever replaces Johnson - if that happens - will find distancing themselves from the Johnson regime electorally desirable (except for Brexit itself) so those who have been most vocal in defence of Johnson may find themselves outside the cabinet. Dorries, Rees-Mogg and Shapps amongst others. And it would not entirely surprise me if Rory Stewart and a few others who were jettisoned were invited back into the fold a as s candidates or advisors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:51 AM

I'm sure you're right, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 09:04 AM

I fear that most Tory politicos will regard Boris Bunter as the only viable winner of the next election. I fear they may be right.

Stodgy Starmer has put on some better performances recently, but mainly inside the Westminster bubble only. I note that Wes Streeting has almost become Labour's cuttin' 'n' thrustin' dynamic poster boy. I can't stand him myself, but the charm offensive (and sure-footed gift of the gabness) was on show big-time last night on Newscast (for night-owls only). The three presenters certainly fell for the charm and, cosily, gave him free rein. Labour do like to shove him to the front...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 09:39 AM

Wes Streeting strikes me as yer typical Essex-Boy, lots of 'norff 'n' sarrff' and noise, but he's not afraid to challenge the Tory Posh-Boys, and he almost always gives better than he gets. Do I like his persona? Not much. Do I like his fire and willingness to trade punches with the Posh-Boys? Oh yes I do!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 12:33 PM

Back in October I said here that I thought that the UK would not 'pushback' any migrant dinghies in the Channel.

It would appear that they never intended to do it, though some might well have wanted to do it.

From The Guardian

Priti Patel accused of misleading parliament over refugee pushbacks

"The home secretary has been accused of misleading parliament after a high court ruling revealed that unpublished parts of a controversial policy to push back migrant dinghies in the Channel said the tactic would not be used against asylum seekers.

The pushbacks policy was finalised in autumn 2021, yet in January this year Priti Patel said pushing back migrant boats was “absolutely still policy” when she gave evidence to the Lords justice and home affairs committee. She has been accused of giving that evidence even though she knew about the unpublished clauses in the policy not to use pushbacks against asylum seekers."

Less a case of misleading parliament, more a case of misleading some tory supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 12:57 PM

When a person is sitting in a rubber dinghy in the Channel, he/she is not an ‘asylum-seeker’ - asylum can only be sought once the person has his/her feet actually on UK soil. So, in that respect, she spoke the truth - pushback won’t be used against asylum-seekers because, at the point at which their dinghy would be turned back, they have not sought asylum, and they are nothing more than migrants.

That’s nit-picking, of course, but I thought I would save Nigel the trouble. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:19 PM

Now this getting a bit metaphysical. Surely they are asylum seekers the instant they step outside their front door to head to another country whether that is legally recognised or not? And in that spirit the key paragraph saya being in the dingy and shouting "I seek asylum" requires the interceptor to bring them to the UK. And in that time between rescue and landing they are apparently seeking asylum but not an asylum seeker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:41 PM

Well of course I was playing devil’s advocate, and teasing with a mischievous suggestion as to what Not-So-Priti Patel’s defence might be, DMcG! ;-)

In fact, I completely agree with your view, but I’m sure there are others - a few of them possibly on this forum - who would defend Patel through thick and thin for no better reason than that she’s a Tory Rightie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 02:10 PM

I know, Backswoodman. I was trying to highlight the mental gymnastics needed for Patel to claim she wasn't misleading.

I am sure she hopes no one will mention this in Parliament, and they probably won't because they don't want to lose focus. But if they do, my advice to her would be to 'fess up immediately, however much that grates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 06:14 AM

The Metropolitan Police are refusing to disclose information about further partygate penalty notices until after the local elections. I think this is a highly political decision and is thoroughly reprehensible. I think that in a democracy we should be entitled to as much relevant information about politicians as is available before being asked to vote. I wonder who made this decision, and who influenced it. Yes I know it's merely local elections, but let's not try to kid ourselves that the national picture doesn't heavily influence local voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 07:52 AM

It could work against the Tories, Steve. People do tend to imagine the worsrt unless they know otherwise. Hopefully after the shit hits the fan for the umpteenth time and the Tories take a hammering in the locals, Bozo will resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 08:03 AM

Very true, so let's hope that Labour make a Big Thing of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 01:15 PM

My local election postal vote has been sent, and I am more than pleased to have voted against the Croydon Labour rot!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 02:29 PM

I don't think many of us will be surprised, Bonzo!

That you can vote for whoever you choose is something I think we will all support.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 05:32 AM

Very true, so let's hope that Labour make a Big Thing of it...

Labour are making a Big Thing of it.
Perish the thought that they should come up with any positive suggestions.
A) We'll vote with the government on this
B) (with hindsight) That didn't go well, we would have done it differently, but we're not going to tell you what we would have done differently.
C) We don't think that will work, what we should be doing is . . .
Oh, sorry, the current Labour Party don't seem to do 'C'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 05:51 AM

Would you care to clarify that, Nigel? Are we still talking partygate or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 10:26 AM

Yes, Labour seem to be making a Big Thing about 'partygate'
But don't seem to know what to do about anything else (apart from supporting the government's moves)

Partygate is an ideal distraction for the Labour Party, and as it keeps getting 'kicked down the road' they can continue to make a big thing of it for months to come.
But at some point they may have to start suggesting what they would do about more important matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:08 AM

Nigel, if democracy is to work, there is little more important than the honesty of our politicians. I think the Labour Party is doing a splendid job just giving Bozo enough rope to hang himself and his sycophants. As they are in a minority opposition any suggestions they do make are purely academic at the moment. The full 2019 manifesto is still available. The next one will be available before the next election. Whatever else it contains, I am pretty sure that making politics honest again will be included.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:34 AM

Dave:
"The 2019 manifesto is available."
Is that the blueprint that we should believe still applies to the Labour Party? Jeremy Corbyn was the Labour Party leader at that time. Is it still an important document to the Labour Party?
And if it isn't, where is the replacement (for the manifesto)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 02:56 AM

Yes Nigel, the manifesto is still important. It was drawn up by the Labour Party, not by Jeremy Corbyn. There will be a new one for the next election but until then it is all we have to work on. The Tories have a massive overall majority. Anything that the Labour Party say or do can simply be shut down so complaining that they are ineffective is just deflecting focus from the failings of those in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:21 AM

Take back control but, err, not just yet (again).

From The Guardian

Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time

"The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

The Brexit opportunities minister, Jacob Rees-Mogg, is expected to frame the move as use of the UK’s newfound independent powers to control the trade border since the departure from the EU and the single market."

And

"Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks have been operational in all EU countries with which the UK shares a border, including France, Belgium and Ireland, since the Brexit withdrawal agreement was implemented on 1 January 2021.

The cliff-edge approach left exporters of fish and other fresh food in chaos with a lack of customs agents and veterinary staff to certify whether the produce complied with EU standards. But in the UK post-Brexit checks on fresh food were not implemented for imports, being pushed back in 2020 and on two occasions in 2021.

Under the current border plan, physical checks on meat were due to start on 1 July and on dairy on 1 September, with all remaining foods including fish and composite foods to be subject to checks from 1 November."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 11:11 AM

All going so astonishingly well in those promised Sunlit Uplands, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:20 PM

You are missing that Rees-Mogg is declaring this as a Brexit benefit, Rain Dog. We are exercising our ability to control the border precisely by deciding not to do so.

That's Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:53 PM

Just heard an audio clip on PM (BBC Radio 4), of Rees Mogg saying something along the lines of "this is a benefit of free trade".

Of course we had free trade with the EU but then decided that we did not want that.

We are indeed living in strange times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 03:01 PM

The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

Of course, if you can trust the EU to be keeping its people safe, and many here seem to think the EU is a marvellous institution (and the sun shines out of . . .), then there is no risk in allowing imports from the EU.

Of course, EU supporters will wish to have it both ways.
1) The EU have much better systems than the UK
2) The UK have to protect themselves from imports from the EU.

It can't be both. Which do you prefer?

Honest answers are welcome (but not expected)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:10 PM

No, there is no contradiction, Nigel. All you have to do is recognise no system is perfect and like the horse meat scandal, there will always be people who want to beat the system if their might be a profit to be made.

(That was a success for the EU, by the way. As I say, there will always be cheats. But they were detected, then traced back to source and the offenders stopped. In the real world, that is successful crime detection.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:43 PM

"A success for the EU"?
Yes, they managed to sell UK & Ireland horsemeat labelled as Beef. According to The Guardian it had been going on since at least 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:34 PM

The EU did not do any such thing. Criminals did so and the EU detected it eventually and tracked it down.

People break laws. The EU detected it etc etc.
Not immediately, but that is true of lots of crimes, in the EU, the UK, the US...

In fact, everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 22 - 02:14 PM

From The Guardian.

Jacob Rees-Mogg has given the game away

"But put all that aside for a moment and grasp the full meaning of Rees-Mogg’s admission. He and his fellow Brexiters once looked forward to these border checks, seeing them not merely as a price worth paying for leaving the EU but as a genuine benefit. Britain would at last be free to set its own food standards, superior to the EU’s. And yet now the minister admits that putting up barriers just makes food more expensive for British consumers and risks bankrupting British farmers: precisely the act of self-harm remainers always said it would be. The irony of hearing Rees-Mogg declare that “free trade is hugely advantageous to consumers” after he and his comrades pulled us out of the largest, most successful free trade bloc in the world – the European single market – would be funny if it weren’t so bitter."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 22 - 07:37 PM

Saw this in a comments section after a piece in the Guardian (I can't find it again so I might have misquoted it slightly), to do with the Tory MP who claimed that he'd accidentally accessed pornography whilst googling tractors:

"My wife has just left me for a tractor. When I got home I found she'd written me a John Deere letter."

A hundred upticks from me! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 22 - 06:10 PM

Time for some predictions!

In my ward, the Conservative Jaden Beaurain will win (What other party could be be?)
This is because there are four left of centre candidates against him? the the vote will be spilt so badly he gets through.

More generally? The Conservatives will lose seats and control of some councils, but will be able to claim "It is not as bad as we feared."

There will not be enough letters for a contest until more fines or Gray's report turns up, and maybe not then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 22 - 08:34 PM

Speaking of tractors, while googling tractor hubs I ended up on Pornhub and found that Putin is complaining that Russain porn is being boycotted in the US and Canada. What about the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 22 - 01:08 PM

Let's review my predictions.

The first I got wrong. In my ward, the Conservative Jaden Beaurain did not win; he was 300 votes behind the Labour candidate. The LibDem took a significant portion of the vote, but the other two left-of-centre parties did not.

My second prediction was that the Tories would say this was bad, but not as bad as the predicted and this has been quite widespread. I haven't yet seen a commentator think Labour performed better than moderately well.

My third prediction - about the numbers of letters - will need more time to see if it was right, but I still think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 22 - 03:29 PM

Best news I've heard for a long time - Labour loses control of Croydon Council!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 22 - 03:33 PM

And we have an elected Conservative Mayor!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 22 - 08:29 PM

Yebbut we all know that the only good thing about about Croydon is that there are plenty of buses and trains that leave town.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:05 PM

So, even if Starmer isn't fined, is he stuffed? The Labour Party needs this like a hole in the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:19 PM

I am.not sure, Steve. It seems a good ploy to me, given the Mail could have kept this on the boil for months. They still could, of course, but it will be harder.

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist,
Thank God, the British journalist.
But seeing what the man will do
Unbridled, there's no occasion to.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:23 PM

* unbribed

Humbert Wolfe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 06:01 PM

The police response will be crucial. "There is insufficient evidence..." = fatal for Starmer. A bollocking but not a fine, he's belly-up. Unless they actually say that the accusation is vexatious, it will never go away. The gathering, held against an uncurtained downstairs window in the house of an MP late in the evening, for all to see, was an act of supreme idiocy. The Tories, the Mail and the Express must be rubbing their hands with glee.

But not Yvette Cooper, PLEASE...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 May 22 - 07:40 PM

Concerned that 944 tories in Hartlepool voted for a candidate who was convicted for wife-beating two weeks before the election. Says everything about tory voters, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 09:03 PM

Er, I think I got the "beergate" venue wrong. I had repeated what I'd read a few days ago in a report that contained the same error.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 22 - 04:44 PM

I suspect you are right, Steve, that anything other than a complete exoneration will lead to Starmer standing down. But a tactical measure I think leaving this uncertain will tempt the unwary Tory MPs to try to make him commit, which actually just makes Johnson's position look weaker. It has a cost of the media asking incessantly, but maybe they reckon the is a price worth paying to have the less attentive MPs calling for him to quit. Some are attempting the awkward balancing act saying no one should resign over the fines but if Starmer wishes to it is up to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 22 - 05:10 PM

Half of me says, please go, Starmer. The other half says, who else is there? Well it won't be a leftie, for sure. Lisa scrubs up well. She's very assured and she's a northerner. In fact, she went to the same school in Bury as my sis! We have to start thinking who could see Johnson off: the clunky, stodgy Starmer, fence-sitter in chief, naive walker into bear traps, is not the man. Mind you, that's half of me. The other half...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 22 - 01:57 AM

You should not read to much into a single day, especially after the state opening of Parliament, but "Beergate" is not on the front pages of the Daily Mail, even as a side panel to the main story, nor did I find it during a quick look at their online site.

A few more days should show whether they think pursuing this will do more harm than good for the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 22 - 01:22 PM

Well it's not anywhere near as easy to dig up much of substance about a single event as it is about multiple parties that WERE parties. However, it will come down to the police response. Anything other than a summary dismissing, as in "no case to answer," and the tabloids will be back. You can bet your life that they're digging like mad right now in a way they didn't over the Downing Street parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 22 - 02:05 PM

I'm piddling myself at the contortions that the Daily Heil hacks are going through to cast Starmer in a bad light on this. The latest is that his speech was a ploy to put the police under pressure to drop the charges. You can see where this is going. If there is no case to answer the right whingers will have it in for the Durham police for supporting Starmer. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 22 - 02:06 PM

Sad thing is of course is that half the population seem to swallow this shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 22 - 03:02 PM

Which is precisely why the tabloids won't drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 22 - 04:00 AM

I see that Blair has waded in with more right leaning comments.

From an article in the Guardian about a Blair foundation report -

"They thought Labour’s far-left economic policy was a bigger threat than Brexit.”

Without what he calls the “millstone” of Starmer’s predecessor, Jeremy Corbyn, Blair claims Labour can win many of these voters back

I think it just shows how far right politics has become. When did supporting the NHS, free education, nationalising utilities and helping the vulnerable become far left economic policies? Nye Bevan must be spinning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 22 - 05:51 AM

One of Corbyn's "millstones," apart from the mass media, was the determined and constant briefing against him by members of his own party. All those people who refused to serve in his shadow cabinet and who rarely missed a chance to berate him publicly. They did the Tories' job for them. It was unforgivable that the senior members of the party wouldn't at least publicly get behind the properly-elected party leader. It was transparently obvious what they were doing. I suppose that it'll be one of them who succeeds Starmer (the sooner the better). He was fence-sitter-in-chief with regard to Corbyn and the party's disastrous brexit shenanigans, but just look at how he's treated Corbyn and other good leftie people such as Becky Long-Bailey and Ken Livingstone since. Not a man of principle in m'humble, in spite of his posturing as such. He's all misplaced expediency and no substance. And I'm still a member!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 22 - 06:57 AM

Dave the Gnome:
You can see where this is going. If there is no case to answer the right whingers will have it in for the Durham police for supporting Starmer. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

And if he gets a fine the left will blame the Durham police for forcing him out of his post. It works both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 22 - 07:19 AM

He isn't of the left, Nigel. But I know what you mean. Actually, the real left would probably be glad to see the back of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 22 - 07:54 AM

When did you last see a left wing newspaper with the mass circulation of the Daily Heil Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 22 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 22 - 11:41 AM

What’s The Difference Between Jack Monroe Suggesting Budget Recipes, And A Tory MP?

Should be compulsory reading for all Tory and Daily Heil apologists

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 22 - 07:19 PM

I'm a massive fan of Jack. She is straightforwardness and honesty personified.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 22 - 08:30 PM

So Boris Bunter has only been fined the once. The way some Tories are talking, you'd think that this "achievement" should be enough to see off the critics. "Time to move on to the important things that people are worried about." Well I think that the first prime minister in history to be convicted of an offence whilst in office, and who has lied in his teeth about it to the Commons and the country for many months, SHOULD be seen as an important thing that should worry us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 May 22 - 09:29 PM

Well I think that the first prime minister in history to be convicted of an offence whilst in office, and who has lied in his teeth about it to the Commons and the country for many months, SHOULD be seen as an important thing that should worry us.
I understood that whether he lied to the commons had yet to be decided upon by the privileges committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:04 AM

Of course he lied Nigel. It's what he does - https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

It will be interesting to see how he wriggles out of it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:49 AM

The spokesman for the SNP said this morning, that Johnson needs a short sharp shock, in my opinion a short sharp kick up the arse would be good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:53 AM

I’ve reached the conclusion that those who try to defend Johnson in the face of all the indisputable evidence against him must breathe through their bottoms - there’s no way they could breathe through their noses, or even their mouths, with their heads buried so deep in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 22 - 04:26 AM

However good Johnson may be at getting out of scrapes - and he has an undeniable talent for it - every MP will have to defend whatever stance they take on this and Gray's report come the election. That will worry them. The prospect that people may not raise it because they are more worried about rising inflation, particularly food and fuel, will not make them sleep much easier in their beds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 22 - 09:02 AM

Brilliant! Stanley Johnson, father of the criminal we have as a prime minister has sucessfully applied for French citizenship.



Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 22 - 05:59 PM

3199...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 May 22 - 07:48 PM

I’ve reached the conclusion that those who try to defend Johnson in the face of all the indisputable evidence against him must breathe through their bottoms - there’s no way they could breathe through their noses, or even their mouths, with their heads buried so deep in the sand.

People are not necessarily defending Johnson, but working on the basis that 'due process' must be observed.
There are too many here who would condemn him before the evidence has been viewed and decided upon.
Several have said "He's had one fine, there will be more, he should go now". No, it has stopped at one fine.
Others are saying "He lied to parliament about it". But they don't quote him. Yes he said "No rules were broken", but as part of a longer comment "I have been assured that nor rules were broken".
Can we at least wait for the privileges committee to look at this and make a decision?

All else is 'prejudice'. Check that for a definition if you need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 22 - 04:13 PM

You valiantly clutch at straws, Nigel. Very brave of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 22 - 04:39 PM

On the 8th December, when speaking about the events, Johnson did carefully say he had been assured there was no rule breaking.

He did not put those caveats in place on 1st December, in answer to Starmer's first question.


What I can tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman is that all guidance was followed completely in No. 10. May I recommend that he does the same with his own Christmas party, which is advertised for 15 December and to which, unaccountably, he has failed to invite the deputy Leader of the Opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 22 - 04:41 PM

”You valiantly clutch at straws, Nigel. Very brave of you.”

The point at which bravery becomes wilful gullibility was passed a very long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 22 - 06:15 PM

I was trying to be nice to him, John. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 22 - 01:32 AM

I got that, Steve. Perhaps it wasn’t clear, but I was referring to the Brexit-bamboozled Johnson-apologists in general, not any specific individual. However, if the cap fits… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 22 - 08:03 AM

Others are saying "He lied to parliament about it". But they don't quote him.

How about “It is an astonishing fact that we have 420,000 more people in work than before the pandemic began.”
Boris Johnson, House of Commons 12 JANUARY 2022

When, and I quote from the previously referenced Boris Johnson Lies, the fact is there are more payrolled employees than before the pandemic, the total number of people in paid work - including the self-employed - is below the levels seen just prior to the pandemic. This figure has fallen from 5 million just before the pandemic to 4.3 million as of the third quarter of 2021.

Data from the Office for National Statistics, which includes all people in paid work in the UK, shows that this number is still about half a million below the level just prior to the pandemic. It has gone from about 33 million between December 2019 and February 2020 to 32.5 million in the latest figures from July to September 2021. The proportion of working-age people in employment is also lower than it was in early 2020, falling from 76.6% to 75.4% in this period.

So, there is proof that he lied to parliament. There are plenty more where that came from if you want me to continue but it is just as easy to look it up yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 May 22 - 09:00 AM

Jesus Fucking Christ, have you nothing else to do??????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 May 22 - 04:24 AM

yes, I have mountains of other things to do, but that doesn't detract from calling out those who set rules and boundaries which included restrictions on visiting people dying in hospital and care homes, limiting numbers at funerals which meant making choices as to which family members and life long friends could or couldn't visit, not allowing families to spend time with older relatives who live alone at Christmas and other celebrations when they flout their own rules. Saying that they did not know what the rules the made are and/or implying that the rules shows only apply to those they see as beneath them is totally COMPTEMPTIBLE. If the rules are too difficult for the Prime Minister to understand, what gives him the right to allow the police to fine anyone else if the rule are that incomprehensible. The law says we have an individual duty of care to understand what the law says and follow it. Ignorance is no defence.

What is worst is that when the government are held to scrutiny by parliament they lie, and when that lie is shown to no longer hold water, lie again, and again, not just about illegal parties in Downing Street, but about issue after issue. Not only that, but using parliamentary privilege to lie about opposition members, including lies that are easily fact checked.

What is most reprehensible are the number of sycophants who, when the government is called out come up with whataboutery, straw man arguments, the tired phrase that there are more important things to worry about than a government which voters are supposed to implicitly trust breaking their own rules/laws, then lying about it when they are found out, and when they have no arguments or defence left, abuse other people for calling out corruption and wrong doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 22 - 06:02 AM

Exactly, SPB-Cooperator, very well put.

Those who seek to "defend" the corrupt practices of those who create the rules are just as guilty.

What, perhaps, makes it worse is that they know those people in power break the rules and seem to consider that this is acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 22 - 07:52 AM

"Sue Gray Partygate meeting with Boris Johnson instigated by Downing Street official, No 10 admits"

I wait with anticipation the front page of the Daily Mail: "We got it wrong!"

I may have to wait for some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 May 22 - 08:44 AM

It'll be on page 94, in Sanskrit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 May 22 - 09:57 AM

That was after Simon Clarke lied to the media saying that it was instigated by Sue Bray - not sure on whose orders?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 22 - 01:53 PM

Given the photos released on 23/5/22 of an event on 13 November 2020, I wonder who still thinks Johnson's statement on 1 December 2020 is entirely accurate?

What I can tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman is that all guidance was followed completely in No. 10.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 22 - 08:49 PM

What gets me is that he and his henchpersons were partying like mad during a lockdown and allowed it all to be photographed! I mean, what kind of judgement does that show? I'm just thinking back to those pub lock-ins I used to enjoy in my misspent youth in the Nell Gwynne in Chelsea, and trying to imagine how we would have reacted if some dickhead with a camera had started going round taking pictures. At best he'd go home with an empty camera, and at worst he might have found it part-flushed down the gents' lavvy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 22 - 01:31 AM

That does seem strange, Steve, but I put it down to the fact that Johnson and co are surrounded by cameras so often that they did not register. A bit like that famous experiment with the gorilla appearing while people are concentrating on throwing basketballs to each other - it literally does not get noticed.

For other attendees who are backroom civil servants who keep out of the limelight I have no explanation why they allowed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 22 - 08:31 AM

Panorama tonight sounds like a good watch. 30 in a room...shoulder-to-shoulder... people sitting on people's laps... Johnson in attendance for 20 or 25 minutes... red wine, white wine, fizz, gin... he poured the drinks... That little word "no" to the House could well come back to bite him on his voluminous arse...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 22 - 09:04 AM

I agree it should be.

However, it seems to be hosted by Laura Kuenssberg. I somehow doubt any of this is new to her. The Friday events were referred to a press meetings, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 May 22 - 09:49 AM

> surrounded by cameras

We all are: surveillance cameras have outnumbered people in the UK for a decade or two now; and that's before we count the ones in phones, which are nice and inconspicuous. But those pictures don't look as if they've been snatched through a window, more like the work of someone's personal ego-trip snapper. Guess who's got three :-) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 22 - 04:27 PM

Well the Panorama programme was very disappointing. Too bad that it was made before the "sensation" of the ITN photos. It was no more than just the narrative of the last few months that we know already. Also, it was rather too much about Laura, Laura, Laura. And why they felt it necessary to wheel out Irritable Dowel Syndrome, a has-been loser if ever there was one, is beyond me. I'll coin a phrase here and just say that I'm waiting for Sue Gray...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:21 AM

I agree the Panorama programme was disappointing. In fact, they managed to make the topic rather dull, which some people would be very happy with.

Meanwhile, it sounds like today's plan is to use a windfall tax as a diversion to stop the media talking too much about Gray's report. Who wants to talk about misdeeds when you are getting all this largesse? (Bribed with your own money, of course, but still it will be "the Government acts on the cost of living crisis.")

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 22 - 03:08 AM

Newspaper front pages for 25/5/2022

Rather more of them are summaries of the Panorama accounts than I expected, but at least half are focusing on this 'rescue plan' for the cost of living instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 22 - 05:33 AM

Bonzo, the time taken finding Boris Johnson's lies is nothiong at all. I have linked a website that gives good examples of many, although not all, lots of times.

The amount of time and effort spent on the language gymnastics in an attempt to excuse the sorry excuse for a prime minister is far greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:50 AM

johnsons statement is pathetic. The Downing St staff working hard???????? I suppose care workers, nurses, doctors, and other key workers had nice cushy jobs, then..... How can someone not know what is going on in his own home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:55 AM

“If” (Downing Street Party Remix)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 22 - 08:04 AM

I can't even begin to express how angry I feel now without just descending into a tirade of profanities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 May 22 - 08:32 AM

I sympathise, SPB. Herself's listening to the parliamentary coverage (called "doing her knitting by the used-heads basket" here), and praying for a guillotine motion. Thoughts occur:

* The behaviour reported reminds me of the Chetwynd Society in King's College Cambridge [no, I was not a choral scholar]: their alcoholic exploits were legendary, and got them banned from every room in college in turn. The last I heard, they were on their second circuit.

* Were this a school, it would have long since been put in Special Measures, and a competent headmaster would have been parachuted in. It annoys me how, the lower the level of society you are in, the scricter the application of rules.

* I foresee a massive cull in Number Ten, but no change of alleged leader, along the lines of the Night of the Long Knives in Harold Macmillan's days. Sadly, something like the Profumo affair (which finally saw Supermac off) wouldn't nowadays register higher than a hiccup on the political seismometers.

* Everybody who got fined for parties during lockdown should send the bill to Number Ten, with a handling charge to cover loss of business, reputation etc.

TL;DR (de Pfeffel): "I see improvement." He does like three-word slogans.

TL;DR (David Davies, and others): "In God's name, go."

.... End of rant. I have been Told there's something more important to be doing (the drying-up).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:53 PM

"johnsons statement is pathetic. The Downing St staff working hard???????? I suppose care workers, nurses, doctors, and other key workers had nice cushy jobs, then..... How can someone not know what is going on in his own home."

I know a few former no 10 staff - they work incredibly long hours when required, so stop spouting such leftie nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 22 - 03:49 PM

No 10 staffers work so much harder than nurses and care workers that they should be allowed to mix while those caring for the sick and dying are not allowed to?

Really bonzo?

I refer you to my post of 25 May 22 - 05:33 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 22 - 12:25 AM

I know a few former no 10 staff - they work incredibly long hours when required

As do nurses, doctors and many other other professions. Even in IT I occasionally worked weeks in excess of 100 hours.   

That does not justify clocking off every Friday at 4pm to drink, sometimes until the early hours of the morning. Which nurses etc did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 22 - 01:49 AM

Anyone else amused by the thought of all of the ministers and other Johnson supporters saying "we must move on from partygate as there are far more important issues to concern ourselves with" now having to defend that one of those more important things seems to be allowing weights in pounds and ounces?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 22 - 02:59 AM

As Angela Eagle quite rightly says, it’s the ‘weaponisation of nostalgia’, an attempt to make it more likely that feeble-minded old codgers will vote Tory because ‘they gave us our pounds and ounces back’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 May 22 - 04:05 AM

Are shop assistants really going to subject themselves to abuse for allowing goods to be priced in imperial instead of metric?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 04:49 AM

Everyone who has grown up with, have been taught and think in metric measures are being disregarded I suppose. It shows the younger generations how much contempt this shower has for everyone but themselves and I hope that those youngsters don't think that older generations in general support this ridiculous ploy. What's next? Go back to pounds, shillings and pence?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:39 AM

I would have thought that no one is suggesting removing metric measures, weight or monetary, from use. Just that the EU imposed illegality of Imperial measures will no longer be law. By now we have all got used to grams and kilos. Most shops will no longer have Imperial scales anyway. Selling in pounds and ounces will probably be most useful for tourists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 07:39 AM

It won't work. I went into the butchers last week and asked for a pound of sausages. He said with a smirky grin that I was old-fashioned, that it's all kilos these days. OK, I said, I'll have a pound of kilos then...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:27 AM

There was never any "EU imposed illegality of Imperial measures", Stanron. Quote from The Guardian, September 2007

The threat to Britain's imperial measures is to be lifted today after a climbdown by the European commission.

The plans to switch over to metric and abandon imperial measures became a cause celebre for Eurosceptics, unhappy about Brussels's intrusion into British life.

Since 1995, goods sold in Europe have had to display metric weights and measurements, but to appease the public outcry in the UK, imperial indications have also been allowed.

That concession to British tradition was due to expire in 2009, when imperial measures were to be finally banished from packaging and market stalls.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:46 AM

"...when imperial measures were to be finally banished from packaging and market stalls."

You mean I'll no longer be able to go down the market and buy five pounds of potato's, a pound of tomato's and a dozen egg's???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:53 AM

Steve, I wouldn't get involved in this thread, except to say I fear the apostrophe police are coming for you. Don't open the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 10:30 AM

Sorry, I didn't finish my post!

...But now the commission has decided to abandon its attempt to force Britain to adopt the metric system.

The reprieve follows months of commission consultations with British industry, trade and consumer groups - an exercise which convinced European officials that emotions were still running high over the issue and a move to metric-only in the UK would simply provide ammunition to Eurosceptics.

Gunter Verheugen, the EU's industry commissioner, will announce that miles per hour, pints of milk, and the Troy ounce for weighing gold bullion are all here to stay.

A spokesman for the commission said that Brussels was responding to "serious confusion" among British consumers and traders and wanted to "put a full stop on this issue".

"This means that measurements such as pints and miles are in no way under threat from Brussels and never will be," she said.

So the "imposed illegailty" was as much a myth as the EU insisting on straight bananas and banning double decker busses. There were hundreds of other such myths spread by the media and, sadly, many believed them :-( The Euromyths have all been archieved here and, as it says, it makes for some disturbing reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 10:32 AM

Jeri - Steve's apostrophes are common in the UK and known as "greengrocers's apostrophes". I suspect they were used on purpose :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 May 22 - 10:48 AM

'Steve i's right, Jeri: apo'strophe's are *required* by the Guild of Grocer's, to warn the reader that a letter S i's imminent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 22 - 11:02 AM

”So the "imposed illegailty" was as much a myth as the EU insisting on straight bananas and banning double decker busses.”

And, IIRC, our Prime Minister, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, was the person responsible for inventing and propagating the ‘straight bananas’ lie as well as many others about the EU, back in his days as a so-called ‘journalist’….

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 May 22 - 11:20 AM

Meanwhile, back at the 'subject: I remember shopkeepers being up in arms about the change to metric, not because it would confuse the customers, but because they'd have to buy new sets of scales. Force them to change them back, and they'll be up in arms again for the same reason --- the old scales have long since been melted down, or can now only be got back from the antiques trade at interesting prices.

.... Besides, nobody seems to have noticed that the yard is no longer a freestanding (erm) standard of length: the inch was redefined as 25.4 mm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 22 - 12:44 PM

Besides, nobody seems to have noticed that the yard is no longer a freestanding (erm) standard of length: the inch was redefined as 25.4 mm
It was indeed. But that was by scientists rather than politicians, and pre-dates the UK joining the 'common market'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 01:12 PM

As long as we can Continue to use the yardarm as an indication of when we can start drinking I'm not Bothered. will not be coerced into asking whether it's wine o'clock yet, or even worse, prosecco'clock... bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 01:15 PM

Damn, I'll try that again:

As long as we can continue to use the yardarm as an indication of when we can start drinking I'm not bothered. I will not be coerced into asking whether it's wine o'clock yet, or even worse, prosecco'clock...

(And I haven't even started yet!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 May 22 - 01:32 PM

> scientists rather than politicians

We take the time to Do It Right, which is why I'm so slow replying to e-mails. What I'm waiting for is for some (*ahhk* *phht*) politician to hear that the metre was originally defined in terms of the distance from the equator to the North Pole through Paris, then try to deny Johnnie Foreigner the use of the Greenwich Meridian for navigational purposes ("It's mine, I tell you, mine, dribble wurble").

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 May 22 - 01:41 PM

> prosecco'clock

If people start referring to "chardonnay-o-clock", I'll emigrate to a pub which advertises "Music and Craic" on the board outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:19 PM

I thought Chardonnay was a girls name for years. In Sainsbury's in Salford you would often here the call of the young mothers (shopping in pyjamas) "Come 'ere Chardonnay yer likkle bleeder..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:30 PM

Don't wanna sound snobby, Dave, but are you sure you didn't mean Lidl? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:51 PM

Nah - In Lidl they were called Chardonnay yer likkle f***er...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 06:12 PM

A sidetrack, no doubt, but about 30 years ago we were on holiday in South Wales when we met a family of northerners. Mrs Steve (a southerner - say no more) was horrified to hear the chap talking about his "lickle bockle" of beer. I've been taunting her with that ever since. I get a good bollocking every time. I know how to get a woman's dander up... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 22 - 07:41 PM

If Boris Johnson survives the current kerfuffle, in post, who will be standing against him as leader of the Labour Party, and what are their chances?
Knowing that many seem to think Keir Starmer is ineffective, and Jeremy Corbyn is not likely to be welcomed back.

Probably not a popular question here. But it bears thinking about!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 22 - 08:13 PM

Dave, regarding the "greengrocers' apostrphe's" - yeah, I've known that for a few years. They do it here, too, but I don't believe we have a name for the trend. And yes, I knew Steve wasn't doing it seriously. The apostrophe police don't care, though. You KNOW how they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 08:21 PM

Happy to know you realised that I wasn't making ignorant mistake's, Jeri!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 22 - 08:23 PM

Well it won't be Jeremy Corbyn, Nigel. But your question is pertinent. Starmer is a born loser.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:49 AM

Angela Raynor - She makes mincemeat of the current shower in the cabinet!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:46 PM

Unless he resigns as a result of receiving a fixed penalty notice, it will be Starmer. There are a fair number of others inside and outside the MPs (Andy Burham, for example) who have the charisma that Starmer lacks, utterly I think replacing him would be a gift to the Tories. Remember they set when the next election is, and could do it either before a new leader is appointed or when they have only been in place a few weeks. It would not surprise me at all if, as a result of Starmer and Raynor standing down over a FPN, Johnson called a swift election telling people they do.not know if they are electing a Corbyn or someone further left if they vote Labour, besides which anything in the manifesto is meaningless as the new leaderejr may

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:50 PM

oops!

... the new leader might reject it.

That would be a huge gamble for Johnson, in case it is seen as too blatant a manipulation. But if he thinks it gets him a win, he might take it.

And he might do exactly the same for any Labour leadership challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:57 PM

That 'utterly' should be 'but'. Such are the hazards of using a phone with autotext

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 22 - 06:13 PM

As far as I know, you can't be the Labour leader if you're not an MP. Andy Burnham would have to step down as mayor and win a by-election. It's been suggested that Harriet Harman, who's stepping down at the next election, could step down early to allow him to win her mega-safe seat. I can see that going down very badly, as would changing the rules to accommodate him. It's worth remembering that he contested the leadership and lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 22 - 02:45 AM

You are right about Andy Burham, Steve. I was trying to cover that when I referred to 'outside' Parliament. To become leader, he would have to move from outside to inside somehow. Which would not be easy, by any stretch. Nevertheless, I think he does have the charisma which is a great benefit to a leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 May 22 - 04:37 AM

Businesses whose accounting period ends before 1 April 2023, can claim the full super-deduction of 130% on qualifying capital expenditure - that is 30% more than its cost. Furthermore, if the super deduction is claimed for year ended 31/03/22 and creates a loss, it can be carried back against profits for the previous 3 years and tax refunds claimed!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:41 AM

Their CEOs can stop going to the food banks then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 May 22 - 10:19 AM

That will be a great relief to someone who loses a loved one to hypothermia or malnutrition that heir 'betters' can get massive tax giveaways to help further automate production and throw more people in manufacturing out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 22 - 02:49 PM

Starmer and Rayner have now recieved questionnaires from Durham police. There is no way of knowing if they are using the sane criteria as the Met, but as a reminder here are Cressida Dick's claimed benchmarks:
But she told London Assembly members that investigations were carried out for “the most serious and flagrant type of breach” where there was evidence and three criteria were met.

“My three factors were and are: there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence.

“Where not investigating would significantly undermine the legitimacy of the law.

“And where there was little ambiguity around the absence of any reasonable defence.

“So in those cases, where those criteria were met, the guidelines suggested that we should potentially investigate further and end up giving people tickets.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 04:38 PM

"...there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence."

Well first of all, and I think you may agree, I don't regard Cressida Dick as necessarily authoritative in such matters (I'm trying to be kind). Second, I always thought that ignorance of the law was no defence...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 02:19 AM

As you say, Cressida Dick's criteria are a bit, um, odd. Take the one you highlighted. She says an investigation will only happen if those involved knew or should have known the rules were broken.

Hang on, you only investigate if the rules have been broken? You only issue a fine then, yes, but to have decided there was an offence before you investigate is back to front.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 04:52 AM

"Hang on, you only investigate if the rules have been broken? You only issue a fine then, yes, but to have decided there was an offence before you investigate is back to front.'

You have to have reason to believe that an offence has been committed before you start to investigate (unless you are the taxman).

Starmer and Raynor are not obliged to answer the questionnaires. It would be interesting to know how many questionnaires Boris received and how many he answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 08:58 AM

Sorry Rain Dog but that is not what Dick said. I quote again "there was evidence that those involved knew, or ought to have known that what they were doing was an offence" For them to have known or not known it was an offence, the offence must have already been commited. She is working on the premise that an offence must have been commited before she investigates. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:59 AM

So we have the no-confidence vote this evening.

I anticipate that Johnson will win narrowly.

However, were I advising the Conservatives on their best strategy to win the next election, I would say dump Johnson and elect a new leader from outside the cabinet (though Mordant might do, because she is not so well known to the public.)

Whoever becomes PM, drop everyone from the cabinet who has a prominent public role, especially those who have been going round defending Johnson over Partygate and accusations of lying.

Elect a member of cabinet, or keep people who are thought by the public to be willing to lie about Johnson out of self-interest and you will just make people think the problem is the Conservative party as a whole. With a PM from outside the cabinet and a strong clear out, you might be able to convince enough voters that there has been a fresh start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:21 AM

Johnson's charisma won it for them last time. Find me ANY Tory with charisma...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:52 AM

High drama? Probably not but it will bw close.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 06:29 AM

Steve Shaw> charisma

It seems to have evaporated, leaving only charisn'tma. I only started to believe the corner may have been turned when I heard de Pfeffel being booed on his way into the thanksgiving service.

--- Breaking news, as I type: the PM's anti-corruption chap has resigned said post. Truly we are living in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:13 AM

I will qualify what I call a "narrow win". Percentages worse than they were for May I definitely consider narrow. A percentage point or two better than May is also fairly narrow.

A solid win is when the numbers are less than or about the same as the number who have publicly criticised him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:15 AM

I suspect that Johnson will survive this no-confidence vote and I suspect that it has been called now to ensure his survival.

If, as expected, the conservatives are hammered in the forecoming Wakefield by-election all those members with small majorities will be concerned for their future and would possibly support a no-confidence motion.

However, once he has survived one, another cannot be called for 12 months. Thus Johnson can be seen to not only not give a damn for the popluation of the country but he doesn't give a damn for his fellow members of parliament.

The by-eletion in Tiverton and Honiton which has histotically had a strong conservative majority will also be a good indicator to the mood of the country, but if Johnson does survive the conservatives have 12 months to "reinvent" him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 08:21 AM

A solid win is when the numbers are less than or about the same as the number who have publicly criticised him.

Highly unlikely then. According to The Guardian: In total, 50 MPs have been publicly critical of Johnson’s position without any caveat of saying he should nevertheless stay in post. as 50 is less than the 54 letters required to create the vote it is very unlikely that the number voting against Johnson will be below 54.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 08:40 AM

I agree, Nigel, as do some of the betting sites. Of course it is possible to criticise someone by saying they must do more, but still support them in a confidence vote.

Staggering on with less votes in support than May had is, I think, the most likely outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 09:45 AM

Apparently a poll carried out of OCM showed that just 16.76m people took part in events over the past weekend to "celebrate" the anniversary of the queen being on the throne for 70 years.

This number is even smaller than the numbers who voted to remain the EU.

We were told by brexiteers that this number was insignificant at the referendum.

I wonder if they will say the same about people joining in the "celebration" and then tell us that the queen is a much loved and needed person to head our country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 11:14 AM

Apparently a poll carried out of OCM showed that just 16.76m people took part in events over the past weekend to "celebrate" the anniversary of the queen being on the throne for 70 years. This number is even smaller than the numbers who voted to remain the EU. I wonder if they will say the same about people joining in the "celebration" and then tell us that the queen is a much loved and needed person to head our country.

I don't recall anyone saying that the number of remain voters was insignificant, just that the number of those voters was less than 50% of the turnout, and that it was the overall result that was significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 11:26 AM

We've heard the mutterings from across the pond about "PartyGate," and in my Instagram feed I'm seeing posts from friends that something is up with Johnson and a no-confidence vote. It's probably just as well we don't have something like that here in the US - with the houses of congress so evenly divided we'd be watching new leaders appear alternately weekly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 12:15 PM

SRS you post " with the houses of congress so evenly divided we'd be watching new leaders appear alternately weekly"

This is not about the House of Commons, as a whole, having a vote of no-confidence but only the conservative side of the house having that vote.

It would be like your Democrats or Republicans having a vote their leader.

A new leader would be voted in and parliament would continue as before for the rest of their term in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:29 PM

I read somewhere that the 1922 committee have changed the rules so that another vote of no confidence can be held at any time but I cannot find any info :-) Maybe I dreamt it! Imagine having a vote every month. Or week. Or day! Would make Bozo's life interesting:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Monique
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:43 PM

From there:
Snip
Under the current rules of the 1922 committee, if he wins this evening the prime minister cannot face a vote of confidence for another 12 months. However, these rules can be changed by the executive of the 1922 committee. According to The House magazine, “there is no codified rulebook for the 1922 committee.” And the specific process for confidence votes is not publicly available – “it is in Brady’s sole possession.” This means that the committee could change the rules at any time.
Snip

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:49 PM

Thank you Monique. Much appreciated :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 01:54 PM

If johnson gets through tonight, all this will mean is their are 180+ fawning sycophants with their snouts in the trough in the House of Commons.

If Johnson and tory voting lowlife think it would be a mandate to put his behaviour behind him and move on they are on a different planet. The result will not alter the fact that johnson is a lying, corrupt piece of **** who doesn't give a **** for anyone but himself and is a two faced git with contempt for every man, woman and child in this country. Tory party and opposition MPs have a duty to continue to call out in the House of Commons on a daily basis to remind the voting population that johnson is nothing but a self serving pathetic waste of skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:10 PM

If he lost this vote, he'd still be Prime Minister, and has the authority to call a general election. I can see him doing that. Some people have said that a threat to do that has in fact been deployed as a way of getting some vulnerable backbenchers back on side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:24 PM

Butbutbut --- Rules don't apply to a World King. Haven't you ever watched children in a playground? if the rules don't work in your favour, rewrite them on the fly. Remember also Sam Goldwyn's comment about verbal contracts.

I hereby dub the little offender in question The Fat Owl of the Remove.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:05 PM

So good news - Johnson stays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:17 PM

A good proportion of Labour and LibDems will agree with that, Bonzo. A seriously weakened PM but still able to be trouble for the candidates and with a party split about 43% to 57% to run.

There are many in the opposition who think that a dream scenario for them.

It is not the best position for the country, but that's politics for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:48 PM

He is seriously weakened. He is going to lose two safe seats in by-elections, he has given grist to the mill to the opposition, he has to face the standards committee - and he will be gone very soon. Otherwise I'll eat my flat cap.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:49 PM

How can a lying self serving piece of **** who has contempt for every voter in the UK remaining PM be good news??????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:01 PM

because it winds up you lefties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 05:02 PM

Clear win for BorisJohnson in the confidence vote. Greater percentage than in his initial leadership competition, greater percentage that Starmer got in his leadership competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 02:31 AM

Apples and pears. Comparing the relative merits of of election candidates with a vote of confidence regarding one lying git is a valiant attempt to save his skin but it's also highly disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 02:40 AM

"It winds up you lefties"

Hardly. From a purely tactical point of view it's a dream result for the Labour Party. What would have been bad news for them would have been for Boris either to win with an overwhelming majority, or for him to be voted out.

Chucking an unpopular leader in the way the Tories do every now and again means that the replacement can get a boost. It worked for John Major, and it worked for Boris Johnson back in 2019, and in both cases they won the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 03:07 AM

When Johnson was elected Leader of the Tory Party, many of us predicted that he would, sooner or later, divide the party, trash its reputation, and run it into the ground.

Slowly but surely that exactly what he’s doing, and this is the latest episode. And no matter how many Ministers they wheel out on TV to Big Him Up, they know he’s becoming a greater and greater liability. And Her Majesty’s Opposition know it too - they must be hugging themselves with joy.

Meanwhile, back in Mudcat-land, Johnson’s resident cheerleaders drop their trousers, lift their shirts, and look forward to taking it straight up the arse again from The Eton Bunch…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:15 AM

because it winds up you lefties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, Bonzo, you openly admit that you post things just to wind people up. I am sure you are aware that that is the very definition of trolling and for you to be proud of doing so speaks volumes about your character.

I shall repeat my message to everyone else. Bonzo is either trolling of too dim witted to be involvved in sensible conversation as is best ignored.

We now know which it is and the action should still be the same. He will either get fed up of it or go to greater and greater lengths to wind up 'lefties' until he reaches the stage that there is no other option left to the moderators but to suspend his membership. Just my advice of course. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:16 AM

and 3299...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:19 AM

Brian Bilston’s view of Johnson’s close-shave last night…

’Why are you still here, please go away…

hey, what’s that bad smell in here?
oh, it’s you, I thought you’d gone
because trust in you left years ago
yet you’re still clinging on

and even those who cheered for you
don’t want you here no more
so scram, skedaddle, avaunt, vamoose,
run along, now – here’s the door

see, we’ve had about enough of it
watched you stand, then sit, then lie
it’s time that you were on your bike
so long, shove off, goodbye

but you won’t, of course, you’ll blunder on
until your party’s torn apart
it’s the only thing that gives me hope
it’s not much but it’s a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:20 AM

Oak, Ash, Poplar, Pine, Beech, Alder, Birch

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:21 AM

Bugger! That was 3,300! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 09:27 AM

If you assumed that all the payroll vote backed him, that would mean only about 100 of around 250 backbenchers don't want him gone. Which won't feel too comfortable standing in front of them. Though of course it would be very naive if he imagined that all the payroll vote did back him - but that means wondering which of those swearing allegiance don't mean a word they say, including the frontbench regulars who are rolled out to express their devotion when required.

When they slap you on the back it'd be great if you didn’t have to worry whether they've a knife in their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 10:55 AM

When they slap you on the back it'd be great if you didn’t have to worry whether they've a knife in their hands.

When the boss comes along, and he's singing your praises,
Don't be too hasty, don't take the chance.
Remember, there's only a very small distance
From a slap on the back to a kick in the pants!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 11:31 AM

"Labour forced a division on its motion on beefing up the ministerial code (see 1.48pm), even though the government was not voting against. (You can do that by getting someone to shout ‘No’ when the Speaker calls the vote, and putting up tellers for the no side.) The motion was passed by 215 votes to 0."

I am sure there is some subtle advantage in doing this, but I don't see it at the moment.   Something to do with getting the names of every who voted and didn't vote for it recorded, I presume, which, long term, might play into a "did your MP vote to toughen the rules?" in a campaign. Remember that in a division the bells will be rung so everyone in the House or their office will know a vote has been called, and they will then have to explicitly choose not to attend.

But it all seems a shade tenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 10:51 AM

Just seen a great post on faceache

"The simple fact that you were fooled and conned doesn't make you an idiot.

What makes you an idiot is when you BLATANTLY REFUSE to look at the truth and make the conscious decision to believe the lies."

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 11:30 AM

Love it! Lots of those about, including one or two suckers on here…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 06:31 PM

I can't see anything wrong with showing the government up on a policy they are ashamed of.

The government might have chosen not to have MPs publicly defend their gutting of the ministerial code, but they are still going ahead with it. Our partial democracy doesn't give Parliament any control over that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 03:56 AM

Thank goodness we have an excellent Conservative Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:38 AM

Well quite. This excellent Conservative government, in charge for twelve years now, has overseen the superb transformation of an NHS that used to have 18-week waiting lists and easy access to GPs into one in which six million people are waiting for years for treatment, which has A&E departments that never meet their waiting targets, ambulances (which often take hours to reach seriously ill patients, if they get there at all)) in long queues outside hospitals and in which it's impossible to see your own doctor for weeks. This excellent government has also overseen the burgeoning of food banks, more children in poverty than ever before, crumbling schools, years-long public sector pay freezes, millions more workers on insecure contracts, hundred-quid tankfuls of petrol, hundreds of metres of empty shelves in supermarkets, real inflation at over ten percent, staff shortages everywhere as a result of the amazingly visionary decision to leave the EU, and an OECD forecast that we will have the lowest growth of any major economy except for Russia's. And what a brilliant move it was to put untested people into care homes in 2020, resulting in at least 20,000 unnecessary deaths, and what an achievement it was to be one of the worst countries in the world when it came to the outcome of the pandemic. On top of all that, the government is headed by a fat, racist, entitled liar and law-breaker in charge of a cabinet of complete no-hopers.   

Apart from all that, yes, truly excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:56 AM

Gosh, I forgot to mention the spectacular achievement of the virtual doubling of the cost of gas and electricity! How could I miss out THAT achievement!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 07:55 AM

All I can do is repeat what I said before. Ignore the troll. He has admitted that is what he does. It will not be long before he gets fed up and goes into overdrive at which point he will probably get suspended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:05 AM

it's a bit more nuanced than that - debates/discussions on the royalty/republic debate are as old as the idea of democracy. i'll continue to argue against royalty but with no desire to go t the barricades about it. i resent the idea of just being a subject - i'd would rather we weren't all subject to a load of forelock-tugging monarchist drivel but it's something i can usually ignore with no bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:12 AM

incidentally, did anyone see any street parties? i was up in glasgow yesterday (buying my partick thistle season ticket and going to kelvingrove, tennents and the laurieston) where apparently there was very little activity (apparently not even any orange marches) and there was nothing round Lancaster (witcherypopery) way (well, one house with some bunting) i'm not disputing there were big crowds (of royalty in gangs?) in Londlon but is there any evidence that the extent of support for that creaky institution may be well short of the amount suggested by the media? Hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 09:05 AM

"...terrorist lover Corbyn..."

Well Boris Bunter is an enthusiastic supporter of the Israeli regime which has shat on the Palestinians for decades and he sells fighter jets to the Saudis so that they can bomb children in Yemen. I guess the old adage is true, that the "terrorist" is the man with the small bomb. Just to correct you, by the way, Jeremy Corbyn has never supported terrorism in any shape or form. It's a bit like calling the little boy who stole your sweets at school a fascist, just because you don't like him much...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 10:12 AM

On this day in 1983 Margaret Thatcher won a landslide election victory over Michael Foot, returning to parliament with a majority of 144 seats.

That sensational victory would allow her to continue changing our country for the better

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 10:27 AM

It's funny, Steve. When I was leaving the local leisure centre a few weeks back a group of kids were hanging about in the entrance, causing the automatic dorrs to open and close a lot. An attendant came out and asked them to move on and one of the kids said he was being a racist to do so! The kids were, as far as I could see, all white! The attendant went back in shaking his head with a puzzled look :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 10:59 AM

"incidentally, did anyone see any street parties?"

I live in a rabidly-safe-seat Tory constituency - we've had a Tory MP continuously since 1924, which I find rather surprising as ours is a rural area with inner-city problems of serious unemployment, drug-addiction, and crime - our current Tory MP will have held the seat for forty years next year. Who votes the bugger in is completely beyond my understanding.

With regard to the Jubilee, street-parties etc., it felt as though the entire Platty-Joobs-Bullshit-Circus passed us completely by - absolute tumbleweed! No parties, our Beacon wasn't lit, and there was very little bunting about the place.

As a result, my faith in the people of this area is restored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 12:33 PM

DtG> The kids were, as far as I could see, all white

Thus "racist" has followed "gay" into street-speak as a synonym for "stupid". As Willie Rushton put it: "Out of the mouths of babes and suckings, and straight down the back of your suit."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 12:48 PM

.... or (more accurately) for "objectionable". Apologies for firing off my mouth from the hip: I'm a mite too distracted to properly copy-edit, because the net keeps dropping out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 01:00 PM

”our current Tory MP will have held the seat for forty years next year”

Oops! Should have said, “multi-millionaire Tory MP…” there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 08:21 AM

Transferring a sole trade business to a limited company was historically an easy way of saving tax and national insurance (NI). However, a succession of changes since 2016 have largely curbed the tax efficiency.

It all began with the reform of dividend taxation in 2016. Before this, dividends were treated as being received net of a notional tax credit. This was deductible in the self-assessment tax computation and meant any dividends that fell into the basic rate band did not actually suffer any tax.

The 2016 changes scrapped this notional tax credit and the concept of a net dividend. Now, all dividends are received gross, and taxable at 8.75%, 33.75%, or 39.35%, to the extent that they fall into the basic, higher or additional rate bands. The stated aim of the overhaul was to combat ‘tax-motivated incorporation’.

2016 also saw the introduction of a dividend ‘allowance’, which is really a 0% band. The 2022/23 dividend allowance is £2,000 (originally £5,000), and the intention is to ensure investors with modest shareholdings were not impacted.

Then, now and next
To illustrate the impact of the change, consider the final year under the old system — 2015/16. A sole trader with profits of £100,000 would keep just over £66,200 after tax and NI. However, a director shareholder of a single person company would keep just over £71,000 - a saving of almost £5,000.

Fast forward to 2022/23 and a sole trade with the same profits would keep £66,800. The director shareholder would still be better off with just over £68,600, but the saving has been drastically reduced.

Let’s now look ahead to 2023. Currently, there is a single rate of corporation tax of 19%. However, from April 2023, the main rate of corporation tax will increase to 25%. Companies with profits not exceeding £50,000 will continue to use the small profits rate of 19%. Companies with profits in excess of £50,000 will be charged at 25%. However, where profits do not exceed £250,000, marginal relief can be deducted to reduce the effective rate of tax.

The marginal relief is calculated by taking the difference between the chargeable profits and £250,000 and multiplying this by 3/200 (the marginal relief fraction). So, if the chargeable profits were £100,000, the marginal relief available would be 3/200 × £150,000 = £2,250. The effective rate of tax would therefore be 22.75%.

This change will have a significant impact on the decision to incorporate going forward. Let’s look again at the position for a sole trader and a single person company director shareholder following the change. We’ll assume the accounting period falls wholly after 1 April 2023.

The sole trader is in more or less the same position as for 2022/23, keeping just under £67,000 of their profit after tax and NI. That makes sense as sole trade profits are not subject to corporation tax.

However, the director shareholder’s position is affected because the profits after deducting the director salary of £12,570 (the optimum position due to the increase in the primary threshold) fall into the marginal relief band. The corporation tax bill will increase compared to 2022/23, leaving less distributable profits to take as a dividend. Our director shareholder will keep just £67,000, putting them on a par with a sole trader.

The future for incorporation
When considering whether to incorporate following the 2023 rate increase, it is unlikely to be worth doing so from a purely tax-motivated angle, unless it is fairly certain that profits will remain within a fairly narrow band, around £50,000 to £75,000.

However, the tax efficiency could be increased in a number of ways depending on the circumstances. For example, the director shareholder may not require all the profit to be extracted every year. Profits left undrawn as dividends will still be subject to corporation tax of course, but will not be subject to income tax until they are withdrawn. If this takes place in a later year, perhaps when profits are lower, or post-retirement, they could be subject to a lower rate of dividend tax.

The undrawn profits could also be put to use for the company to make investments in its own name. This does not solve the tax efficiency issue, but could increase the distributable profits going forward.

An alternative strategy would be to use the undrawn profits to make pension contributions as the employer. These would be deductible for corporation tax, but of course the downside is that the money is then locked away until pensionable age is reached.

If these options are not suitable, ie, because the director shareholder needs as much money as possible from the company each year, a powerful strategy would be to bring a spouse or civil partner in as a second director shareholder.

This would eliminate secondary class 1 NI contributions, as the employment allowance would then be available. It would also have a drastic effect on the corporation tax and income tax charged.

Firstly, assuming there is no other income, both directors would withdraw a salary, saving corporation tax of up to 25%. Secondly, the income paid out to the individuals would enjoy the benefits of two personal allowances, basic rate bands and dividend allowances.

In fact, returning to our company with profits of £100,000, assuming both directors take a salary of £12,570, the corporation tax bill falls by over £3,000.

Assuming the dividend is split equally, neither director shareholder breaches the higher rate threshold, and the income tax bill is less than £5,000. Overall, the change to a two-person company saves over £12,000, leaving our happy couple with £79,200.

To sum up, the days of the old ‘one-man (or woman) band’ companies may be numbered, but there is certainly still a place for incorporation with tax savings in mind. Obviously, this is subject to future attacks by the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 09:56 AM

"No parties, our Beacon wasn't lit, and there was very little bunting about the place."

Did someone forget the matches then BWM?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 01:26 PM

I believe that Priti Awful has booked 148 seats on the next flight to Rwanda...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 04:15 PM

According to an Observer poll, more people think that Johnson would make a better PM than Starmer. And Labour's lead in the polls, after everything that's happened, is a measly two percent. I could weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 12:19 AM

Cost of living crisis - just get on with it."
The voice of a well heeled accountant, a supporter of the capitalist system, the establishment and dog eat dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 12:24 AM

What does the saying dog eat-dog mean?
adjective. marked by destructive or ruthless competition; without self-restraint, ethics, etc.: It's a dog-eat-dog industry.
Bonzo, you have a dogma and a political philosophy of dog eat dog

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 05:52 AM

I always thought that dog eat dog meant illicit viewer sex in your car, break to go to the chippy, then back for more sex in the car park...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 05:31 AM

I have never, not for one single day, not been a member of a trade union since my first day at work in 1973. I remember all those years ago when the term "closed shop" was regarded as dirty words. Well not to me they weren't. I always hated the fact that I had to work with parasites who refused to join yet revelled in the benefits hard-won by the unions. Not only that, they often had the gall to whinge about the unions when strike action was threatened or carried out. Working people have only their labour to sell, and, like a business, they shouldn't be forced to sell it if they see that the price isn't fair. I'm constantly amazed at the millions of suckers who fall for the line that "the unions are holding the country to ransom." I see that it's being trotted out again apropos of the railway workers. We can't charge incredibly rich people enough tax, or close the loopholes they exploit, because they threaten to move themselves, their money or both overseas if we try to. Now that's what I CALL holding the country to ransom, yet the establishment and the Daily Mail are oddly silent about them whilst simultaneously raging about people who kept this country running during the pandemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Monique
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 06:50 AM

"It was never the fault of workers wanting a decent living that brought the country to a standstill or held it to ransom, but that of a failure to negotiate by the people in power."
Aaaahhhh! Now you can understand why we have so many strikes! We can NEVER have proper negociations before we go on strike over here. N-E-V-E-R!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 11:05 AM

”BAckwoodsman, my comment was merely mirroring bonzos offensive comment, knowing what his profession is. I am not implying that every account is cast from the same mold as him,”

Yeah, I got that the first time, SPB - my comment was really intended for Bozo’s education. I guess it was a bit too ‘veiled’!

Still friends?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 11:30 AM

The lefties will love this!!!

Sarah Panitzke, originally from York, played a leading role in a multimillion pound VAT fraud and became one of the UK’s most wanted criminals after absconding during her trial in 2013.

In February, the 48-year-old was arrested while walking her dogs in Spain in an operation led by the Spanish Guardia Civil, working alongside HMRC.

Panitzke launched an appeal against extradition proceedings, which failed, and she was returned to the UK by HMRC. On 10 June 2022, she appeared at Kingston Crown Court and was jailed for eight years.

She played a pivotal role in a sophisticated fraud and laundered stolen money through offshore bank accounts. The gang set up numerous businesses claiming to be legitimately importing and selling mobile phones, but the businesses were a front for an elaborate scheme to steal more than £20m in VAT repayments.

Despite going to great lengths to hide the criminal profits, HMRC investigators uncovered a complex web of transactions they used to launder stolen money through bank accounts in the UK, Andorra, Dubai, Hong Kong, Switzerland, Portugal and the US.

Panitzke fled to Spain during her trial in 2013 and was convicted and sentenced in her absence to eight years in prison. She and her 17 co-conspirators were given sentences totalling 135 years for the VAT fraud.

In 2016 and while still on the run, a court also ordered that she repay more than £2.4m within three months or serve an extra nine years in jail. No money has ever been paid towards the confiscation order.

HMRC believe that she had been hiding in Andorra and Spain for the last nine years and living under an assumed identity. She was captured after the Spanish Guardia Civil identified her in a village in the region of Tarragona.

Simon York, director, fraud investigation service, HMRC, said: ‘Sarah Panitzke helped launder millions of pounds of stolen money and thought she could run from her crimes. She spent nine years hiding – but we never stopped looking.

‘We worked tirelessly alongside the Spanish authorities to track her down and ensure she was brought back to face justice.’

Jessica Walker of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said: ‘Sarah Panitzke, who fled the country during a multimillion pound VAT fraud trial, is finally behind bars thanks to the committed work of our extradition team and HMRC. We will be working with partners to recover the funds she took from the public purse.’

National Crime Agency (NCA) international deputy director Tom Dowdall said: ‘Sarah Panitzke was on the NCA most wanted list for nearly a decade. Her jailing is the culmination of years of hard work by the NCA and partners at home and abroad to trace and return her to the UK.

‘It does not matter how long fugitives run, we have the capabilities, tenacity and excellent relationships with international law enforcement to find them.’

Plain clothes officers from the Spanish Guardia Civil approached her on 27 February 2022, in the small town of Santa Barbara, near the Catalan coast.

She was arrested and subsequently returned to the UK by HMRC officers on 9 June 2022.

Panitzke appeared at Kingston Crown Court on 10 June 2022 and was sentenced to eight years in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 02:19 PM

Indeed Monique!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 05:08 PM

of course

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 06:06 PM

Very interesting, Bonzo. Like one of those books that are so thrilling that once you put them down you can't pick them up again. *Yawn.* I should stick to telling us all how we can screw the nation by cutting our personal tax bills, mate. Far more entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 06:09 PM

Don't do it Steve! Find us a good bottle of wine on offer in Mossers instead :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 06:25 PM

"the lefties will love this!!!"


Sarah Panitzke ...

Are you perhaps suggesting that she was left wing, and if so what is your evidence for that assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 06:28 PM

Collapso, Dave. Three for £18. Unless it's stopped and I've missed it....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 22 - 05:33 AM

Harrowing reading - make sure you read through to the last three paragraphs.

This is why I am a 'leftie'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 22 - 05:51 AM

It is a long way down in the article.

"Just last month, the government announced it would not implement recommendations calling for high-rise towers to have evacuation plans and, instead, would continue to recommend a “stay put” policy in the case of fires – a decision branded a “disgrace” by the Grenfell United group."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 07:16 AM

Tax planning for the basis period reform
If you’re self-employed the basis period reform can increase the profit on which you’re taxed for 2023/24. However, within the rules there’s room to make this more tax efficient. What steps can you take to achieve this?

Basis period reform
The method that sole traders must use to work out their profits for each tax year is changing in April 2023. This is called the basis period reform and will affect anyone whose annual accounting period ends on a date other than one between 31 March and 5 April. For 2023/24 and subsequent years the taxable amount will be derived by apportioning the business accounts of two years.

Example. Andrea is self-employed. On advice from her accountant she produced her accounts for the period 1 May to 30 April each year. Therefore, her profit for each tax year is that shown by her accounts ending in that year, e.g for 2021/22 the taxable profit is that for her accounts for the twelve months to 30 April 2021. However, for the first tax year after the basis period reform, 2024/25, her profit will instead be 1/12th of that from her accounts to 30 April 2023 plus 11/12ths from her accounts to 30 April 2024.

Trap. For Andrea, the transition from the current to the new method requires cramming the profits between 1 May 2021 to 5 April 2023 (23 months) into just one tax year - 2023/24 - known as the “transitional year”.

Spreading relief
The extra profits (in our example, 11/23rds of that for the transitional year) can be taxed over five years. Example. Andrea’s extra profit for the transitional year (2023/24) is £50,000. A fifth of this is taxable in 2023/24 and for each of the following four years. However, Andrea can elect to accelerate when some or all of the extra profits are taxed. The balance of the extra profits are then evenly spread over the remainder of the five-year period.

Tip. There are various reasons why you might want to accelerate when the extra profit is taxed. For example, in 2023/24 your profits aren’t sufficient when added to your other income to make you a higher rate taxpayer. However, a big new contract means that for 2024/25 and later years you expect to be liable to higher rates. You can elect to bring forward some or all of the extra profit so that it’s taxed in 2023/24 at the basic rate instead of in 2024/25 to 2028/29 at the higher rate.

Overlap relief
If your accounting year end doesn’t coincide with the tax year you’ll probably have “overlap profit”. This is profit that’s been taken into account for tax purposes twice (see our previous article here ). Because of this you’re entitled to claim a deduction for the twice-taxed profits. This is known as “overlap relief”. Under current rules the relief is allowed when your business ceases or you change your accounting basis period. As such a change is being forced on you because of the basis period reform any overlap relief you’re entitled to must be used for 2023/24 or earlier.

Tip. If you don’t know how much overlap relief you’re entitled to and can’t work it out, HMRC should be able to tell you. If you still can’t get to the figure an accountant should be able to help you find it.

Tip. You can engineer overlap relief to apply for 2021/22, 2022/23 or 2023/24. Consider which gives the greatest tax saving (see our examples here ).

The extra profits can be spread over up to five years from April 2023. You can elect, to some degree, to allocate them in the most tax-efficient way. If you’re entitled to overlap relief for doubly taxed profits, you can use it in any of the 2021/22, 2022/23 and 2023/24 tax years. Consider which will produce the greatest tax reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 07:24 AM

The circumstances of each self-employed individual and partnership will be different of course, but factors such as seasonal profit levels, timing of fixed asset expenditure to maximise a claim for capital allowances and other income, to maximise tax relief at basic rate, minimise tax at higher rate, and even maximise losses!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 12:18 PM

Whilst I can understand why some people may be very grateful for this knowledge Bonzo I fail to see why you consider it necessary to post on Mudcat.

As and when I require such information I can either seek it out myself or refer to a tax specialist should be need arise.

I know several people with very specialised fields of knowledge but, for example, my Metalagist friends knowledge is not required on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 03:45 PM

If you don't like it don't read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 04:54 PM

It might be to distract discussion away from Johnson's contempt for the Grenville victims and people still living in dangerous high rise housing 5 years after the Grenfell fire.

He probably thinks that tax management is a far more important subject to discuss and has a lot more relevance as a UK political topic than human lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 22 - 06:47 PM

So the vicious, entitled, bullying and thoroughly incompetent Priti Patel has decided that Julian Assange should be extradited to the US.

From Peter Oborne (of all people) in the Guardian:

Julian Assange’s supposed crime was to expose atrocities committed by the US and its allies, primarily in Afghanistan and Iraq, during the war on terror. He shone a light on the systematic abuse dealt out to prisoners in Guantánamo Bay. He revealed the fact that more than 150 entirely innocent inmates were held for years without even being charged.

Once safely in US hands, it’s all but certain that Assange will spend the rest of his life in jail.

He published a video of helicopter gunmen laughing as they casually massacred unarmed Iraqi civilians in an attack that killed around 15 people, including a Reuters photographer and his assistant.

The US declined to discipline the perpetrators of that atrocity. But they are pursuing Assange to the ends of the earth for revealing it took place.

So Assange will rot in a US jail because he embarrassed the US government. Because he exposed the dreadful things the US had done in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Baghdad by releasing "classified" documents (not documents that threatened national security but documents which revealed actions that no civilised country should condone).

Whenever I hear Americans bleating about threats to their "free speech," I think of how they would go to the ends of the earth to put Assange behind bars - for exercising the most important "free speech" of all, the free speech that exposes government wrongdoings. A keystone of democracy. But campaigning for free speech suddenly halts when that free speech gets just a little embarrassing. So I hope that Julian's appeals are successful. He's already been incarcerated, in effect, for ten years. Time for him to be freed to lead a deserved normal life.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 03:36 AM

Sadly, Steve, with the way things are going with the anti demonstration laws and the like, that is the way things are heading here :-( I said on the Trump thread that what the US does happens in the UK a bit later. Which is why I am hoping they nail the orange bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 04:21 AM

"It might be to distract discussion away from Johnson's contempt for the Grenville victims and people still living in dangerous high rise housing 5 years after the Grenfell fire."



One's sorry for them, but there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 04:33 AM

So now Patel wants to put electronic tags on completely innocent people. So you can do to innocent "foreigners" what you can't do to innocent Brits ...nice..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 04:45 AM

"One's sorry for them, but there it is."

There what is? Don't help them? Don't pursue their landlords? Let them burn as they're mostly not Tory voters anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 07:13 AM

Obviously nothing to do!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 04:36 PM

Well why don't you find something then Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 05:04 PM

Lefties are so obsessed with looking at things from a negative angle that when someone comes around and decides to interpret it from a positive angle, they’re ready to crucify the person.!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 06:17 PM

So you think that failing to help the Grenfell victims and the tens of thousands of people facing the same plight is a positive thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 02:48 PM

As far as I have read the government is helping.
They have said that the builders who took shortcuts to save on building costs should fund the remediation work should be those who pay for it.
Some very large firms have already agreed, and put forward budgets to do the work.
The work of remediation has started in many places, but will not be a 'quick-fix'

Industry to pay

Builders agree to pay
"Under the new agreement, which will become legally enforceable, over 35 of the UK’s biggest homebuilders have pledged to fix all buildings 11 metres+ that they have played a role in developing in the last 30 years.

For the companies yet to make the pledge, the Secretary of State has also confirmed there is little time left for them to sign up, and that those who continue to refuse will face consequences if they fail to do so.

As set out in January, a new government scheme will also see industry pay to fix buildings where those responsible cannot be identified or forced to in law. This follows previous confirmation that plans for a 30-year loan scheme paid for by leaseholders would be scrapped."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 03:44 PM

Exactly Nigel Parsons, once again the lefties take the negative angle!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 04:23 PM

Not a quick fix? When lives are at stake? It's been five years, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:16 PM

And in those five tears there have been no repeats.
The work needs to be done (to this I agree). But it must take time to do, just as it took time to initially build the premises.

Your comment, to which I was responding, "So you think that failing to help the Grenfell victims and the tens of thousands of people facing the same plight is a positive thing?"
Things are being done to help those in a similar plight!

As with anything else, you are looking for a reason to bash the (Tory) government.
You Fail!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:28 PM

No I'm not! I'm just pointing out that thousands of people, five years after the disaster, are still living in potentially dangerous conditions, and thousands are unable to move out of their flats because they are unsaleable. Five years on, Nigel!

Yes there have been no repeats. But Grenfell was not a repeat either, despite the fact that tens of thousands were living in dangerous conditions for many years before. That is sheer good luck, not, as you seem to imply, the result of the safety the housing. Just ask yourself how you'd feel if you lived in a flat that was cladded dangerously, and in which you had no option but to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:56 PM

No!
You take a trade unionist view of the situation. Something is wrong, someone must be responsible and must immediately put it right.

The actual situation is:
There is a problem.
To what extent does it need action?
Do all properties with this problem need action? (no, the cladding was already passed as 'safe' for buildings below a certain height.)
Who was responsible for the problem? Can we make them pay to correct it?
If we can get them to pay to correct it (or even get the government (taxpayer)) pay to correct it, how long will it take?
To expect that, once the problem was understood, everything would be sorted out instantly, suggests a very naïve viewpoint.

As with almost everything else, the Labour party may rant, but they suggest no 'better way' to deal with matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 02:54 AM

That is nonsense Nigel. The Labour Party cannot do anything as the Tories have a massive majority and it should not take 5 years to fix the issue anyway. You are trying to justify the unacceptable. Oh, and as far as I know, Steve is not an official Labour Party spokesman but has put up an alternative - get it fixed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 11:19 AM

but has put up an alternative - get it fixed!
That is not an alternative. The government are working to 'get it fixed'. Steve is now complaining that it is not being done more quickly.
Doubtless there is a limited workforce capable of doing the work. If any builders could do the work, they could be drafted in to increase that workforce, at a cost to other projects, and house-building.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 11:26 AM

Of course it is an alternative. Delay fixing it by over 5 years or get it fixed sooner. Seemples.
Your phrase "If any builders could do the work, they could be drafted in to increase that workforce" is very telling though. Maybe we can get some builders in from Poland. Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 07:21 PM

I support the RMT strike action. The railway workers kept on working right through the pandemic at great risk to themselves, and many died. Most railway workers haven't had a pay rise in two years, and many of them in three. The negotiations are fake: the government calls all the shots and will not allow rises about 3%, while inflation is running at 9%.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 12:09 AM

Hear hear, Steve. Herself and I separately likened it to the way Maggie Hatchett chose her ground carefully before precipitating the miners' strike, thus (in the words of a police community relations officer on the spot at the time) setting back the clock by fifty years. Unions have been on the back foot ever since ....

.... and I'd better stop there before my keyboard catches fire. If you want to be heard, people, less shouting and more careful analysis. It gets awfully loud, as well as terribly lonely, in the middle ground.

"Be fair, Citizen G'Kar. I am a soldier; I carry my sword in my hand. You carry your sword in your mind and in your heart, which gives you a two-to-one advantage in arms." [Corrections humbly invited.]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 05:38 AM

When tories spout on about RMT workers on already massive salaries holding the country to ransom, they are assuming that ticket office assistants, train cleaners, station/platform cleaners are on the same wage as highly skilled signal technicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 05:58 AM

I don’t believe they’re ‘assuming’ anything, SPB, they’re perfectly aware that ancillaries are lowly-paid. The trope they’re pushing about ‘highly-paid railway workers’ is just anti-union propaganda, the ghost of the Beast of Grantham raising its foul head once more.

Those of us who weren’t so stupid as to allow ourselves to be conned by the propaganda of the Brexit-Bunch predicted that, once we were out of the EU, the attacks on workers rights in general, and trades-unions in particular, would begin in earnest…and current events are proving us right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:19 AM

And, at the same time that Tory Ministers are shooting their mouths off on TV, making appalling smears against ordinary workers and union members who, at the risk of their own lives, kept the nation’s transport systems moving right through the pandemic, Johnson is proposing removing the cap on the bonuses paid to the bankers - the very people whose greed and recklessness brought the country’s financial system to its knees in the crash of 2008.

Do these foul, disgusting Tories have no shame at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:44 AM

> Do these foul, disgusting Tories have no shame at all?

It's bred out of them, or beaten out of them in Eton. Please see the first entry in my ditties thread ---

--- more later. Dinner has been Declared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 10:33 AM

I'm delighted to see that least three of Starmer's junior front-benchers have defied his disgusting instruction and have gone to stand on picket lines. He's bloody useless and he's going to put Johnson back in power next time around. If he dares to discipline them I'll probably leave the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 03:43 PM

Yes I think Tory governments for the forseeable future !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:33 PM

not got long left then, Legs? try and make the very best of every day spreading your love around the world. Or tax advice if you prefer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jun 22 - 01:50 PM

"Those of us who weren’t so stupid as to allow ourselves to be conned by the propaganda of the Brexit-Bunch predicted that, once we were out of the EU, the attacks on workers rights in general, and trades-unions in particular, would begin in earnest…and current events are proving us right."

RMT SETS OUT SIX KEY REASONS FOR LEAVING THE EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 22 - 04:36 PM

The RMT were plain wrong and the quote you juxtapose is plain right. It doesn't mean that the RMT are wrong about everything all the time. Point taken, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jun 22 - 04:21 AM

it is a typical tory press tactic - allow government to get away with murder, but if labour or a union makes the slightest wrong call, plaster it over the front pages for months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 22 - 07:21 PM

I must say, I'm very impressed by Mick Lynch. He puts himself out there all the time, he's calm, measured and in control of the facts, unlike almost everyone who is put up against him or who interviews him. His appearance on Question Time was very competent, and the only conclusion I could come to from the programme is that Fiona f*****g Bruce is a dyed-in-the-wool Tory.

Subject: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 03:29 AM

massive swings against Boris Johnson AND THE UK cONSERVATIVES
HIP HIP HURRAH
.Wakefield constituency
Registered        69,601
Turnout        39.1% (Decrease 25.0 pp)
                        
Candidate         Simon Lightwood         Nadeem Ahmed         Akef Akbar
Party         Labour         Conservative         Independent
Popular vote         13,166         8,241         2,090
Percentage         48.4%         30.3%         7.7%
Swing         Increase8.6%         Decrease17.0%         

Tiverton and Honiton constituency
Turnout        52.3% (Decrease 19.6 pp)
                
Candidate         Richard Foord         Helen Hurford
Party         Liberal Democrats         Conservative
Popular vote         22,537         16,393
Percentage         53.1%         38.4%
Swing         Increase38.6%         Decrease21.8%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 05:14 AM

Well I'm glad that Wakefield went back to Labour, but, let's face it, the scale of the victory was underwhelming. The fact that there was a less-than 40% turnout and a hardly resounding majority speaks volumes about disillusionment with the disreputable Boris Bunter but is decidedly not a ringing endorsement of Starmer. According to the Today programme, ten by-elections during the coalition recorded bigger swings to Labour than this one, yet Miliband still lost next time out. Labour is in big trouble and Johnson must be smirking over his coffee this morning.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 05:17 AM

Good results. The Liberal result will probably attract more attention but the Labour victory is much more impressive. The Tories were tarnished by Johnson, naturally, but also by the previous MP being a sad little twat who got caught watching porn at work. If the Liberals can't win a by-election in a seat like this in the South-West of England mid-way through a Tory government there really is no point to them at all.

The Labour result is very heartening. Labour were much more damaged and tarnished by the previous MP being a pervert and sexual predator. By comparison, the previous Tory MP for Tiverton's actins were pathetic but not much more. If Labour can overcome the stigma that could have attached to them in a seat where people deserted Labour in droves under Jeremy Corbyn, the maybe Starmer's leadership and strategy is on the money after all.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:10 AM

"The Labour result is very heartening. Labour were much more damaged and tarnished by the previous MP being a pervert and sexual predator"

The previous MP was Imran Ahmad Khan, a conservative, not a labour member of parliament

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM

PS This should really have been posted in the one thread we are allowed below the line. No doubt the Moderators will move it when day arrives in the US.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:41 AM

Thanks for the welcome news, Dick. I was out late last night playing, and hadn't kept pace with the wider world. So I got up with something of a leaden feeling in my stomach (remembering all too clearly being greeted first thing in the morning by the unwelcome Brexit results back in '16, which seared itself into my psyche, and enacts instant-replays at key times).

I'll just look at Mudcat first, I thought, my procrastination-instinct kicking into high gear. And lo and behold!

I know this isn't music, but maybe let it float down the top column one time before kicking it downstairs (when the inevitable arguments start). It is crucial not only to Britain, but is of interest the rest of Europe too, for very good reasons.

Think I'll put something special in my coffee to celebrate.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 07:00 AM

Labour won not because they're impressive (which they are clearly not) but because the Tories keep scoring own-goals. Nowhere near good enough I fear. 12% swing on a 39% turnout. Let's not get excited.

Steve (Labour Party member)

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 07:48 AM

Raggytash

My humblest apologies. You are of course correct. This is one of the seats the Tories took off Labour when Labour was led by Jeremy Corbyn.

Senior moment. I must have been thinking of Keith Vaz.

Steve Shaw - yes, not a great swing but I'll take it. Is the glass half empty, or is it half full, or is it just too small?

I agree, though. Labour really need to stop being timid about supporting workers.

If the last Labour government has introduced PR we might not have a Tory government now at all.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 09:56 AM

It's something to sing about......

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 10:44 AM

Thought we would see you all down here.
Welcome to the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 01:08 PM

The winner of the Wakefield by-election got just under 5000 votes FEWER than the Labour candidate in the 2019 election - who LOST that election. Since 1945, until last night, no Labour candidate in Wakefield has attracted fewer than 17000 votes. Last night's winner got just 13166 votes. I suggest that any optimism about this, or anyone claiming that it's a pointer to a future Labour victory, simply means that cloud cuckoo land is alive and well and filling up with valiant Labour hopefuls. The Tories will quickly realise that Boris is safe as long as Keir is at Labour's helm. As long as he's there, the only way the Tories can lose would be if half the cabinet turned out to be mass murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 08:29 PM

Apologies for not being on the same scale as tory corruption and contempt, but this is much more immediate.

Trying to get home tonight I was waiting for a N7 bus, but it arrive behind a 218 bus, the upshot is that the N7 pulled away before anyone had the chance to walk along the length of the 218 bus.

When I got home I rang TFL, but the operator refused to even let me state my complaint before hanging up I then contacted the bus company anf all they said was contact TFL as they don't give a **** about how their employees treat passengers. In the end it is all down to the scum who voted tory which resulted in London buses being privatised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 02:41 AM

I do think there is a big risk of over-optimism from Labour about the Wakefield result, but I would not rely too heavily on the number of votes cast. The number of votes in by-elections is generally substantially lower than in general elections. Nevertheless, I do support Steve's caution that this not looking strong enough to suggest a Labour majority - or maybe not even a hung Parliament - as it stands. In addition, I think if Johnson is replaced before an election a lot of the anger against the Tories will fall away and the battles will be much tougher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM

Exactly. I also think that much of the anger will fall away anyway. If a week is a long time in politics, then two years is an eternity.

The apocryphal tale (invented just now by me) is that when Starmer told his shadow cabinet that they must refrain from calling him boring, he couldn't be heard above the snoring... (though it wouldn't surprise me to hear that it's been invented several times already in tabloid cartoons).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 09:03 PM

We almost had a hung Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 03:14 AM

Maybe my language was a tad OOT, but at the same time I was a tad peeved about how I was treated but the bus service (+2 others from the Trade Union Club o0f which I am a member).

I still maintain the right to direct my ire in part to the driver, much more to the privatised bus companies who hold themselves above critcism, and not even being prepared to let a pleb like my to voice my complaint, let alone respond to it, and also to those who voted for bus service sin London to be privatised.

Anyway ****ing a******es like me are a an inferior race to my betters, and I will try, but can't promise to never criticise my lords and masters who are clearly my superiors who are there to be obeyed without comment or question.

Actually, after this sarcastic passive-aggressive outburst, I probably wo't try that hard either while I still (just about) live in a free and so far non-fascist state where I can safely protest - individually oir collectively without being subject to recourse taken against me by yhr state; something that johnson and his cronies would do well to remember we enjoy at the cost of countless human lives in conflicts over the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 05:49 AM

Whilst I wouldn't characterise every Tory voter as scum, I can well see your frustration. A couple of years ago I was repeatedly fobbed off by Saga when I was trying to get a refund for a covid-cancelled (by them) holiday. In the end I ferreted around on google and eventually found the email of the managing director. I emailed him one Sunday afternoon with my complaint. He replied almost instantly, and the whole of the money was refunded to my bank account first thing on the Monday morning. I don't make a habit of that, but I do tend to stick with it, and don't usually have to go right to the top, but every now and again...

I would characterise every Tory voter as either consumed with selfish self-interest or as utterly deluded. How can anyone, seeing the way the fat, disreputable, lying idiot in Number Ten behaves still think that he's just an OK bloke and well worth voting for? Beats me. Third term my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 08:15 AM

Grenade time:

> We almost had a hung Congress.

Were they (nearly) hanged like sheep thieves, or hung like ripe game? I remember hearing of de Pfeffel being caught whistling Waltzing Matilda in the corridors of Number Ten; I wondered at the time whether anybody reminded him of the eventual fate of the protagonist of that song.

"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

                        -- Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:29 AM

The main protagonist of that song committed suicide by jumping in the billabong. He avoided any possibility of hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:57 AM

If only...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:09 AM

Latest news - resignation of tory deputy chief whip due to his appalling drunken behaviour at the £1,542/year membership Carlton Club at the same time that millions of working people are struggling to pay their rents, heating bills and feeding their families. Pity he won't do the decent thing and resign as an MP as well.

Pincher by name, pincher by nature... oh the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:06 AM

South Croydon (Croydon) council by-election result:

CON: 42.9% (+2.9)
LAB: 27.0% (-2.1)
LDEM: 14.7% (+0.6)
GRN: 8.8% (-5.5)
IND (Pelling): 5.2% (+5.2)
UKIP: 0.8% (-1.6)
IND (Samuel): 0.6% (+0.6)

Votes cast: 3,045

Conservative HOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:52 AM

Shall I remind you Bonzo of just how many seat the conservatives lost at the last council elections at the beginning of June .............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:55 AM

10? ................................ no

20? ..................................no

50? ......................................no

100? ..........................................no

200? ................................................no

300? .......................................................no

400? ..............................................................no


It was ONLY 399 seats the conservatives lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 09:22 AM

It was unfortunate the British lost the American Revolutionary War for the native americans who were protected from colonists overunning their lands by British decree. Perhaps England would later reverse their policy or Napolean would have stymied England to the Mississippi.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 09:56 AM

Why can’t Americans understand the difference between ‘English’ and ‘British’, or ‘England’ and ‘Great Britain’? Referring to the British as ‘English’, or to Great Britain as ‘England’ is incorrect and ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 11:23 AM

"Shall I remind you Bonzo of just how many seat the conservatives lost at the last council elections at the beginning of June"

I care nothing for areas other than my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 11:40 AM

Bonzo not in the dog house, but in an ivory tower.
He reminds me of mrs Thatcher, THE Woman who walked the long way home to avoid seeing the poor parts of her town.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 11:56 AM

Correct, Croydon North is a shit hole, best to keep clear!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 12:09 PM

You Englishers have a ridiculous side too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 12:58 PM

Croydon South.... hardly a hotbed of deprivation, is it? Why should the over entitled, over bloated little proverbial who have nothing to care less about than the time it takes for their favorite champagne to clear customs vote otherwise? South Croydon voters would still vote tory no matter what johnson and his ilk do to **** ** other peoples lives, as long as it doesn't happen to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 03:33 PM

Great isn't it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 03:38 PM

Carlton...a private members' club...Tory member in trouble for interfering with private members' private members...

C'mon, we've gotta get our laughs somehow!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 04:10 PM

"I care nothing for areas other than my own."

There speaks a very unintellegent man.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 04:38 PM

Raggy, I think you mean “There speaks a typical brainwashed, working-class Tory supporter”. Or, as my dad always called such people, a ‘Mucky Toff’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 04:42 PM

> Referring to the British as ‘English’, or to Great Britain as
> ‘England’ is incorrect and ridiculous.

They're actually more correct imho. English patriots* carefully confuse England, Great [sic] Britain, and the United [sic] Kingdom. I'm British by passport, an ex-patriate Lancastrian by adoption, and admit to being English only with deep shame. At least the Welsh and Scots have their own independent senses of identity, and parliaments (however token). Sadly, were we to have a separate English parliament, it'd probably be permanent Tory-blue.

I wish to declare UDI from Planet Westminster.

* "The last refuge of the scoundrel" [Dr Johnson]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:33 PM

Everyone born in England is British. Not everyone born in Great Britain is English. Fact.

Referring to Great Britain as ‘England’, or to all British nationals as ‘English’ displays ignorance, and is incorrect. Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:49 PM

Patriotism is like the barking of village dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:33 PM

Well I'm a patriot. I love this country, it's natural beauty, its diversity, its democracy (currently under threat, but hey ho). By accident, I was born here and I feel at home here (in spite of Boris Bunter's efforts at exceptionalism). I don't think it's the natural thing to do to swan around all over the world in order to "open one's eyes." Good luck with that. Nothing I've ever adhered to, whether the EU, my trade union or my country, has been perfect. To say the least, never a perfect fit for what might attract my loyalties.

Often confused with patriotism is nationalism. I can support both, but nationalism requires huge scrutiny. Generally, nationalism is far more prone to sprout racism and nationalistic exceptionalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:46 PM

Apostrophe terrorism from the spellchecker, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 09:23 PM

I am embarrassment. Consider my rant suitably modified, please: presumedly Dr Johnson meant tub-thumping rather than conviction when he defined "patriotism".

[crawls under nice damp rock]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:19 AM

I completely agree, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:55 AM

Dr Johnson imo was right, patriotism has been used to encourage people to fight other people in other countries, it has been used by political establishments to control ordinary people send them off to their death, examples first world war ,napoleon invading Russia.
at the time of the the first world war people were covered with white feathers and humiliated if they did not do their patriotic duty and go off to be slaughtered in the first world war.
Patriotism has been used by ruling classes to divide ordinary people who might otherwise want to change the political system. the powers that be SUCH AS lord Kitchener AND YOUR COUNTY NEEDS YOU. THEY DID NOT APPEAL TO PEOPLE AND SAY BE A NATIONALIST THEY ASKED THEM TO BE PATRIOTS.
so the word patriot was in effect used and is still used to appeal to people to fight other nations FACT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:17 AM

It is how a word is used that defines its meaning.
Kitchener asked people to do their PATRIOTIC duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:29 AM

I must dig out my Patriot Missile tshirt - gave a few a good biffing in the Gulf War!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:35 AM

the well known scoundrel horatio bottomley,
held a rally and called it
On 14 January 1915, 6 months into World War I, the Royal Albert Hall played host to the ‘Great Patriotic Rally’ – one of the most memorable public meetings in the venue’s history.

The rally was not only notable due to the huge number of people who attended, but in the way that it captured the feelings and passions of the British public at this particular time in history.

The Great Patriotic Rally was organised by the proprietor of the hugely popular John Bull magazine, Mr Horatio Bottomley: a convicted swindler and disgraced ex-Liberal MP who was forced to resign from his seat after filing for bankruptcy in 1912.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:59 AM

So you can exploit people's perfectly rational sense of patriotism to appeal to their base nationalist sentiments. Love turned into hate. Just as you can exploit people's religion, replete with love, forgiveness, charity and a solid moral compass, to get them to fly planes into buildings or strap explosives to themselves. This isn't just nuance, Dick. Patriotism and aggressive nationalism are not two sides of the same coin. One is a vicious perversion of the other. Make the distinction. Dr Johnson lived a long time ago, and shades of meaning can shift. I feel very patriotic about my country, but my brand of patriotism can't be turned into irrational hatred of The Other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 05:16 AM

Steve another example of mass use of the word patriotism from the guardian 1982,
Patriotism has worked its old magic
Wed 16 Jun 1982 16.07 BST

A thousand dead, terrible wounds; the Union Jack flying again over the Falklands (pop. 1,800); rejoicing and mutual congratulation in the House of Commons; champagne and Rule Britannia in Downing Street - each must draw his or her own balance sheet and historians must decide where to place the Falklands War in the annals of Britain's post-1945 adjustment to her reduced circumstances as a declining power.

Truth is one of the first casualties of peace and, now that it has broken out, we had better be on our guard against disinformation. President Harding was right, although his vocabulary wasn't, when he announced the return to "normalcy".

Things will never be quite the same after Mrs Thatcher's war, but they will be more the same than is apparent on the VF Day.

The Falklands themselves, the prize of the war, will quite quickly retreat down the league table of public concern. For a while they will remain too serious a matter to be left to Sir Bernard Braine but before very long, I would guess, they will revert to their traditional place in British politics, one they have occupied since they were brought briefly to Dr Johnson's attention, that is - out of sight and out of mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 07:50 AM

The strength of Croydon Conservatives shines through with an elected Mayor starting to turn Croydon round after 8 years of a disastrous Labour administration. Never again!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 08:00 AM

Once again, nationalism not patriotism. Good comparison of the two here


I agree with the religion analogy. Religion in itself, like patriotism, is not a bad thing. To say all patriotism is bad is like saying all religion is bad. Neither are. They can both be good but can also be used by radical exremists for nefarious purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 08:06 AM

The Falklands war had little to do with love of country and everything to do with Thatcher's whipping-up of nationalism of the worst kind, not least because she needed a war to distract from her failings at home, especially with regard to unemployment and inflation. She could have thanked the Falklands dead for her next election victory. Yet another facet of her hateful side.

It's a shame that Bonzo's post about how doggedly human the Supreme Court judges are by referring (in his own sweet way, of course) to their likely shenanigans in their bathtubs, because it had exactly that grain of truth about how their loftiness is false. It reminded me, though admittedly tangentially only, of a piece written by Nicholas Humphrey in 1982, reflecting on Nye Bevan's remark about "not wanting to go naked into the conference chamber." Yertis (as we say in Pastyland):


In 1957 at the Labour Party's debate on disarmament, Aneurin Bevan declared that he was not prepared to 'go naked into the conference chamber'. It is a phrase which has been echoed by Tory and Labour defence spokesmen alike; something similar was said at the Liberal Party conference in September 1981. But what was it that Bevan had to hide? Bevan came into the world naked, and naked he left it. Why should he have been afraid to go naked into the conference chamber to discuss matters of global life and death ? What he had to hide, as much from himself as from his adversaries, was nothing less than his humanity. Of course, by the rules of the game he had to hide it. For no naked human being, conscious of his own essential ordinariness, the chairseat pressing against his buttocks, his toes wriggling beneath the conference table, his penis hanging limply a few feet from Mr Andropov's, could possibly play the game of international politics and barter like a god with the lives of millions of his fellow men. No naked human being could threaten to press the nuclear button. So I come to my proposal. Our leaders must be given no choice but to go naked into the conference chamber. At the United Nations General Assembly, at the Geneva disarmament negotiations, at the next summit in Moscow or in Washington, there shall be a notice pinned to the door: 'Reality gate. Human beings only beyond this point. NO CLOTHES.' And then, as the erstwhile iron maiden takes her place beside the erstwhile bionic commissar, it may dawn on them that neither she nor he is made of iron or steel, but rather of a warmer, softer and much more magical material, flesh and blood. Perhaps as Mr Andropov looks at his navel and realises that he, like the rest of us, was once joined from there to a proud and aching mother, as Mrs Thatcher feels the table-cloth tickling her belly, they will start to laugh at their pretensions to be superhuman rulers of the lives of others. If they do not actually make love they will, at least, barely be capable of making war.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:33 AM

you can twitter away as much as you like ..but the rest of the jounalistic world is refrring to patriotism, and i have provided examples, all you can do is disagree, without providing back up evidence .
words have meanings dependent on their usage, i have provided examples of how patriotism as a word is consistently used by journalists, you and the gnome remind me of flat earthers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:42 AM

Don't be so gratuitously rude. You don't have to agree with what I say but I put considerable thought into these comments. If anyone twitters away round here it isn't me, if you don't mind. By the way, my thoughts are my own and I don't need to keep digging up what journalists think in order to achieve confirmation bias. There's a logical fallacy afoot here somewhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:50 AM

The post of 08.06AM was a response to a post of Bonzo's in the Roe v Wade thread. Sorry for wrongly stating that his post was deleted. The first paragraph of that post DOES belong here. Make me a strong coffee, someone...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 04:35 PM

If journalists consistently use the word patriotic in a certain way through usage it then has that meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 05:09 PM

And who sez that journalists have the last word on our language? Lessee...we could start with Daily Mail journalists...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 06:56 PM

Sandman:
A thousand dead, terrible wounds; the Union Jack flying again over the Falklands (pop. 1,800); rejoicing and mutual congratulation in the House of Commons; champagne and Rule Britannia in Downing Street - each must draw his or her own balance sheet and historians must decide where to place the Falklands War in the annals of Britain's post-1945 adjustment to her reduced circumstances as a declining power.

Truth is one of the first casualties of peace and, now that it has broken out, we had better be on our guard against disinformation. President Harding was right, although his vocabulary wasn't, when he announced the return to "normalcy".

Things will never be quite the same after Mrs Thatcher's war, but they will be more the same than is apparent on the VF Day.

The Falklands themselves, the prize of the war, will quite quickly retreat down the league table of public concern. For a while they will remain too serious a matter to be left to Sir Bernard Braine but before very long, I would guess, they will revert to their traditional place in British politics, one they have occupied since they were brought briefly to Dr Johnson's attention, that is - out of sight and out of mind.

So, it appears that you believe that countries should not protect themselves/their dependencies against foreign invasion?
Does this mean we should let Russia roll into and over Ukraine?

If that is not what you mean, then Margaret Thatcher's defence of the Falklands was probably correct.
"Mrs Thatcher's war"? You may have missed that it started with an invasion by Argentina!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 07:25 PM

You make a good argument, Nigel. It's just that some of us believe that the British occupation of the Falklands for 150 years was unjustified....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 02:43 AM

I provided the evidence required in the article I linked, Dick. From that article -

"The key difference between nationalism and patriotism is that nationalism is the belief in an exclusionary and insular nation-state, while patriotism is the non-exclusionary love of your own nation."

The meaning of patriotism is clear and if you choose to misuse it that is you business

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 03:53 AM

I am not misusing it, but it would appear you think that the journalists i have quoted are, that is not my problem, but either your problem or the problem of the journalists i have quoted.[ including the guardian
steve, if people including journalists consistently use or as you put it misuse a word, that word then has that particular meaning, look up articles on usage of language, it makes no difference if the journalists are writing for the Daily Mail or as i have quoted the Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:07 AM

HERE FROM 2022 is a journalist using the word patriotism in a way that you maintain is wrong, all thes journalists keep doing this, and you maintain they are all wrong, ha ha ha
Will Russians continue to support Putin’s war in Ukraine?
Patriotic attitudes run high in Russia, our research finds
Analysis by Michael Alexeev
and
William Pyle

March 15, 2022 at 7:00 a.m. EDT
Russian President Vladimir Putin awaits Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko’s arrival for talks in Moscow on March 11. (Mikhail Klimentyev/Pool/Sputnik/Kremlin/AP)

Western officials worry openly that there are no clear off-ramps to end Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. With a protracted and even deadlier war looking ever more likely, will Russians tolerate the invasion’s increasing costs? Or will Vladimir Putin, a highly popular autocratic leader for 20-plus years, lose ordinary Russians’ support?

As Putin massed a large invasion force at the Ukrainian border in late 2021, polls showed that less than 1 in 10 Russians believed Moscow “should send military forces to fight against Ukrainian government troops.” By mid-February, as the Russian military staged massive exercises, another poll — framing the use of force as an effort to repel Ukraine’s NATO aspirations — found that 1 in 2 Russians believed force would be justified. A week after the invasion, 58 percent of Russians reportedly supported the invasion of Ukraine.

What do these and other polls tell us? We’ve studied Russians’ self-reported willingness to sacrifice for their country, comparing Russians’ patriotic attitudes to those of people in other countries. Our research finds that Russians have consistently expressed greater willingness to sacrifice their material well-being in the interests of their country’s military goals — and are more willing to accept conflict with other nations to defend Russian interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:22 AM

Let's look at what else journalists tell us shall we

Boris is doing a great job and brexit is working well

It must be true if it says so in the press...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:23 AM

"...their country’s military goals..."

There ya go, Dick. Nationalism.

By the way, no-one has said that journalists can't be right sometimes. But your argument that the way journalists use a word must mean that it's the right way to use it is a typical example of the logical fallacy we call argument from authority. In this case, journalists are not, as you seem to think, the arbiters of our language. You are casting them as precisely that. We expect journalists to be adept in the use of language because it's their job to communicate clearly. But I can pick up the Guardian on any day and find plenty of examples of well-meaning but clumsy journalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:44 AM

I am not misusing it, but it would appear you think that the journalists i have quoted are, that is not my problem, but either your problem or the problem of the journalists i have quoted.[ including the guardian

The fact that you quote it suggests that you believe it to be correct, or else why quote it?
If you still believe it to be correct, tell me why. If not, accept that you (and the Guardian) were wrong and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:45 AM

I said thqt if a particular word is used regularly and consistently it then has a meaning, in this particular case the use of the word patriotism and how it is consistently used by journalists.
but the reality is that is is used that way by journalists
I can understand that you would prefer it if it was not used in that way. but if journalists consitently over the years use a word that becomes its meaning.
let us take the word gay , a classic example of how a word can evolve,and take on a second meaning that is what language does it evolves and changes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 06:02 AM

Per the Concise Oxford Dictionary…

“patriotism /'pe?tr??t?z(?)m /
? noun [mass noun] the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country:
a highly decorated officer of unquestionable integrity and patriotism.”

“nationalism /'na?(?)n(?)l?z(?)m /
? noun [mass noun] identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations:
their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Union.
?advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people:
Scottish nationalism”

The difference between ‘patriotism’ and ‘nationalism’ seems to be very clearly defined there. Nothing to argue about AFAICS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 07:54 AM

The press spin words to suit their masters agenda. Trump supporters are patriots. Voting to leave Europe is patriotic. Anti government protesters are fanatics or criminals. They have used the tactic as long as they have existed and people still fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 07:57 AM

By way of a bit of light relief, have a listen to Eric Bogle's take on the misuse of language :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 09:24 AM

"...if journalists consitently over the years use a word that becomes its meaning."

Patently not so. For a word to take on a different or an extra meaning, that sense of the word has to become common currency among the population as a whole. Again, you persist with your mistaken notion that journalists are somehow the arbiters of language.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 12:15 PM

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Oscar Wilde

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 01:16 PM

More appeals to authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 03:24 PM

George Bernard Shaw Quotes
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
So many journlists plus Bertrand Russell Shaw and Wilde and Dr johnson, ALL SEE IT DIFFERENTLY FROM YOU.
Steve Shaw is never wrong , so they must all be wrong, hilarious

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:35 PM

Let's go ride bikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:04 PM

"When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

LEWIS CARROLL (Charles L. Dodgson), Through the Looking-Glass, chapter 6, p. 205 (1934). First published in 1872.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:40 AM

There is a useful distinction to hold on to between nationalism and patriotism. That's why I prefer it if there's no blurring between the two. We can all dredge up past luminaries and present-day journalists who use words in colourful ways, which may be their job, but the bottom line is always that useful distinction for us mere mortals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:51 AM

Steve, if a word is used in a certain way by journalists and other people including the ones i have quoted, it takes on that meaning through usage.
you can carry on denying it, but it does not alter the fact that many people [including lots of journalists] use it in that particular way, and it means that through usage patriotism takes on a meaning through its usage as a word.
toilet is an example of another word that through its usage means a place where people shit and piss rather than just a washing place, its meaning gets altered through its usage, the correct term for a shitting and pissing room is a water closet, but people use the term toilet, so the word toilet through its usage means more than just a washing room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:30 AM

If we are doing appeals to authority, let's do the hig one. From
Encyclopedia Britannica

"patriotism, feeling of attachment and commitment to a country, nation, or political community. Patriotism (love of country) and nationalism (loyalty to one’s nation) are often taken to be synonymous, yet patriotism has its origins some 2,000 years prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century"

Or better still, let's look at another way. What word means "a feeling of attachment and commitment to a country" without the feeling of superiority that nationalism brings about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:44 AM

I just noticed this too

"Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:55 AM

Dr Johnson imo was right, patriotism has been used to encourage people to fight other people in other countries, it has been used by political establishments to control ordinary people send them off to their death, examples first world war ,napoleon invading Russia."

I agree. patriotism has been used in this manner. As has religion and other things. This does not make it a bad thing in itself, it just means the people using it in this way are cynical manipulators of others. Just like journalists and, to a certain extent, many other writers.

What do you propose to do? Ban a love of one's land? As far as I am concerned people can be as religious or patriotic as they chose as long as they do not try to force their views on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:24 PM

Dave the gnome you are talking bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:45 PM

Sunak - gone, Javid - gone.

If johnson still insists on staying in power and finds sycophantic nodding donkeys to replace them, this country is f****d for the next decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:58 PM

Appeal to authority followed by ad hominem. 2 of the top 3 cardinal sins of debate! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:03 PM

As the guilty party at the start of this derailment of the thread:

* I love this country, but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops.

* I detest people who shout "love of country" from the rooftops as cover for trashing it.

Now, can we *please* get back to badmouthing politicians rather than each other? before this thread gets smothered in flame retardant. We must hang together, lest we all hang separately, an' all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:35 PM

They’re only resigning because they want Johnson’s job. Since 2019 they’ve been totally complicit in his entire shit-show…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:53 PM

A bunch of hateful shits who have suddenly decided they possess integrity, despite since 2019 relentlessly defending a man whom they knew from the beginnning was unfit to hold office.

Mark Gatiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:56 PM

Distancing themselves now and who could blame them. Trouble is, it would be better if Bozo was still there at election time. Hopefully he is deluded enough to think that everyone loves him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:20 PM

Both men are tainted by non-dom tax avoidance, in Sunak's case via his wife. If Boris Bunter goes, I don't think it will be either of those two.

Let's hear it for...


NADINE DORRIES!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:24 PM

Definitely the best option for Labour:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:35 PM

Steve Shaw! Go an sit on the naughty step. I will not hear such profanity. N***** D*****!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:00 PM

Ha! Nadine Dorries - a perfect example of what happens when the ventriloquist dies, but the dummy keeps talking…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:52 PM

here is an extract[ since it is forbidden to paste the whole article] from an article   On Patriotism
George Kateb • March 10, 2008 •
The brute fact of patriotism is made brute by the inveterate inclination in men to associate virility with the exertion involved in killing and risking death. No theory can ever defeat or discredit this inclination, which helps to engender the fantasy that the competition of political units is the highest kind of team sports. Men love teams, love to live in a world where they are called on to back or play for their team against other teams, even though the sport of war is soaked in blood. Socratic notions of gratitude or Jamesian notions of infinite indebtedness are not necessary for this love. In the sport, where aristocrats used to play their games, elites now mobilize groups or masses to slaughter each other. Men can become peace-loving for a while, but not forever. The women who love them encourage their inclination to see team sports as the essence of their masculinity, and to call patriotic this inclination when it is projected into politics. The pity is that men lend their energies to a state that sooner or later embarks on an inherently unjust imperialist career and thus gets constantly engaged in policies that are deliberated in secrecy, and sustained by secrecy and propaganda, and removed from meaningful public deliberation.
Patriotism is indispensable for sustaining this career of anti-democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:56 PM

It was well said by a wag in a Guardian comments section last week that the words "Dorries" and "culture" should never be permitted to exist in the same sentence. She's a joke on legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:02 PM

There's a whole litany of letters in today's Guardian (they're on the website) lamenting Starmer's lack of leadership. Here's an example which particularly chimes with me:

Labour’s Brexit policy is not pragmatic, it’s cowardly. Keir Starmer is so afraid of upsetting the “red wall” reactionaries that he surrenders to them. That isn’t leadership – it’s followership, and the country deserves much better from its main opposition party. If he can’t face rejoining the EU, he could at least propose the only pragmatic solution: rejoining the single market in order to alleviate the worst of the damage that Brexit has inflicted on our economy.
Dr Richard Carter
Putney, London

The last one wishes the Durham police well - and it's from a Labour supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:28 PM

Nazim Zahawi for Chancellor, eh? Another one being rewarded for his relentless litany of untruths and half-truths in defence of Johnson over the past three years.

God help the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:28 PM

Hesletine summed up the cabinet and johnson nicely - minor limpets clinging on the a major limpet clinging onto a rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:45 PM

Durham police and due to deliver their findings this week or next. Interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:52 PM

So who’s the favourite to replace Starmer - bearing in mind that it needs to be someone who has at least a decent chance of delivering us a Labour government in 2024?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:55 PM

The solicitor general's just gone. It's gonna be lonely for anyone left sitting at the cabinet table.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 07:04 PM

Well all the big talk is Lisa Nandy vs Wes Streeting. Wes is Plastic Man, so out of the two I'd go for Lisa. Or Angela Rayner, whose star is in the ascendancy. Lisa went to my sister's convent school in Bury, so I could be a tad biased...

I think the day of the big-hitting grandee has gone. Unless you know different...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:24 AM

If Starmer goes due to the Durham drinks, Raynor may be in the same boat. Pity really as she would make mincemeat of Bozo! Could Long-Bailey have another try or has Starmer queered her pitch now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:48 AM

It should also be remembered that being the Leader of Her Majesty’s Most Loyal Opposition is not the same job as being First Lord of the Treasury, Minister for the Civil Service and Prime Minister, and success in the former is no guarantee of success in the latter - Johnson being the obvious, perfect example.

So I’d suggest a more complete version of the question should be, “So who is in line to replace Starmer, bearing in mind that it needs to be someone who has at least a decent chance of delivering us a Labour government in 2024, and who has the qualities necessary for a successful Prime Ministership during the ensuing five years”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:50 AM

why does the winkle always turn to the right because it belongs to pritti patel,
sorry if that puts you off your breakfast.
paddy power have johnson to be replaced this year 1 to ten on.
now if they were clever they would replace johnson with rory stewart, a genuine new face, however he would have to be found a seat first. i think labours best chance of winning the next election would be pritti patel as leader

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:53 AM

pritti as leader of the conservatives ,not leader of the labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:25 AM

The Guardian makes Penny bloody Mordaunt the favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:29 AM

Wonder where our resident Johnsonophiles are this morning. I expected at least a couple of them to be here telling us their pin-up boy is ‘a great bloke’, ‘on our side’, and ‘doing a great job’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 05:43 AM

I am a bit surprised Liz T has not resigned. If she has the intention of trying to become PM, Javid and Sunak resigning on principle (supposedly) enables them to say they could strike out on a new and better path. By saying (via aides, note) that she is 100% supportive of Johnson only leaves her the continuity role. That seems a gamble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:00 AM

lisa nandy seemes decent enough but has just said a lot of ill-informed nonsense about scotland. someone said rory stewart as leader (is he still a tory? he seems far too intelligent and decent) and maybe andy burnham for labour leader - i'm sure there will be a few winnable seats coming up soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:11 AM

> Durham police [are] due to deliver their findings this week or next.

So *that*'s what de Pfeffel is busy-waiting* on: if they say Starmer's broken the law, he'll do the honourable thing and go, and de Pfeffel will call a snap election while Labour are sorting out the succession. If not, the World King can demand another recount. The Durham constabulary really are on the horns of a dry lemon.

* Busy-waiting: a programming technique where the program does nothing but check a flag, waiting for it to be changed by some external event. Often thought to be an antipattern, ie a Bad Thing, as the processor can do nothing constructive while stuck in that loop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:12 AM

Keir Starmer wants a snap election. He's only saying that because he knows there won't be one.

He hopes.

He'd lose.

Truss's star seems to have fallen. She's way down in the Grauniad's betting odds now. Mind you, she's such a charmless automaton, the ultimate boring Boris lackey (up to now anyway...), that she'd be an asset to Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:25 AM

To a man or woman, pete, all the Labourites say ill-informed things about Scotland. I suppose they're hoping that, one fine day, they'll start to win dozens of Scottish seats again, a pivotal thing if they're ever to win power. Pie in the bloody sky is that, at least for the foreseeable future.

Labour ought to be cleaning up here. Unfortunately, we have a useless leader at the moment. Where is he in all this?! I'm beginning to agree with that Guardian letter wishing the Durham cops God's speed...

I suppose PMQs today could be interesting, if only anyone took any notice of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 07:28 AM

Well I must say that I enjoyed Starmer's remark at PMQs that this fiasco is "the first instance of sinking ships fleeing the rat."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 07:57 AM

I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 08:25 AM

Even Johnson seemed to find Starmer's line about "the charge of the lightweight brigade" funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:11 AM

Slight misquote from me there of the rats remark. That'll teach me to copy and paste from the Guardian. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:34 AM

”I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)”

Now wouldn’t THAT be something! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:40 AM

I see that Boris Bunter was burbling on about Labour and the "union barons" again today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:47 AM

Hmmmm…there ARE no ‘Union barons’ nowadays - Johnson’s pin-up girl, The Beast of Grantham, and her subsequent acolytes saw to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:51 AM

On PMTs, Johnson seemed to be doing a very bad impersonation of WG Grace, claiming “Not out - people have come to see me be prime-minister, not you resign”!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:31 AM

PADDY POWER HAS THE BETTING ORDER THUS

Penny Mordaunt

Rishi Sunak

Sajid Javid

Liz Truss

Ben Wallace

Tom Tugendhat

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:35 AM

++

"I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)”

Now wouldn’t THAT be something! ;-)

++

As leader or just a MP?

He still believes that Brexit was the right thing even though the Tories did not get the right deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:44 AM

Leader would be good, Rain Dog, but MP would do. I disagree with him about Brexit but as that is now done and dusted someone should make the best job of it that they can. Maybe he would!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:51 AM

I note with interest and wry amusement that Sky News now has a scoreboard panel separate from the ticker, noting the current number of cabinet resignations, as if this were a game of rugby. "It's just gone up from 27 to 28," says Herself as I head for safety. (She watches the 24h news so I don't have to: I've more respect for my digestion. We call it knitting duty.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 11:08 AM

Hail from downstairs: "The BBC [News24] are showing a running total too now. Up to 31." Note to self: check whether the counts on the two rolling-news channels go up in sync.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 02:41 PM

The daft bugger's now threatening a general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:09 PM

Of course he is. It is a way of putting pressure on the minister not to act.

It has alway been about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

The one that comes out best in all this is Larry, the Downing Street Cat. Herself says he sat outside the door, and was invited to go in six separate times before he acquiesced to the wishes of mere humans. Mebbe he wished to express his opinion with a strategically-placed mouse, but didn't have one to paw. There's a parody in there somewhere, but I'm working on something else atm.

.... Oh Dear [20:44 BST]: both BBC and Sky have sudden news blackouts on the entire soggy mess. Has the plonker gone and pulled the trigger? or started throwing lawyers around?

.... help ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:24 PM

Rafa for PM!

(Should I start a thread on it?)

---

Please don't! -----mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:26 PM

De Pfeffel's just sacked Govie. Not surprised, as they've got history, but it's confirmed: Scorched Earth is the new Outreach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:35 PM

I'm a bit of a fan of Martin Lewis (he always seems to be on my side...). He was on Newsnight tonight and he was predicting no less than civil unrest as millions of people are confronted with bills that they simply can't pay. He also expressed alarm about the fact that we have a "non-functioning government"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 02:28 AM

should there be a general election?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 03:28 AM

Peter Bone on NewsNight saying he did not understand why Labour was not bring forward a no confidence vote.

He understands perfectly well why not, but just to spell it out.

The Conservatives want to remain in government but want to change their leader. That is entirely a party matter. Labour calling a no confidence vote *in the government* is an entirely different thing to Conservatives calling a no confidence vote *in their leader*. You can change leader without a general election. So if Labour did call a no-confidence vote all the Conservatives would vote to stay in power, and Labour would lose.

But let us suppose that didn't happen. Suppose the was a general election. Well, the Conservatives would still be stuck with Johnson as leader; it would not solve anything from their point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 03:48 AM

As me old mother would have said, “That Bone bloke sez owt but his prayers!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 03:51 AM

johnson is like a wounded scarecrow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 04:13 AM

We have our very own Trump situation!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 04:22 AM

He's gone. It's been announced officially. Herself is dischuffed: she wants to see it in real time, but she's got a hairdo appointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 04:36 AM

*Agree*, DtG. What we don't have is an armed insurrection.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 04:46 AM

the charge of the lightweight brigade, that is very good

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 05:01 AM

Worth remembering Kipling it the light of the news Johnson is going:

If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same.

His departure will take a lot of anger away and there will probably be a general election before whoever replaces him has had much time to mess things up even more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 05:57 AM

What is happening now is perfectly normal, and procedure will take its course. The lefties do/will not like it, but there it is!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 06:22 AM

Tell us what's abnormal then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 06:23 AM

Dave, Trump would not step down without fighting in the streets.
Boris has 'honor?' and standards that Trump and his righties do not have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 06:59 AM

Boris has no honour Donuel. Until this morning he was kicking and screaming to stay in power. He has been forced to resign, not chosen to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:10 AM

Looks like Johnson’s words are coming back to bite him on his more-than-ample arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:18 AM

In my opinion, he has to go now. The trouble is that, despite their majority, the Tories are no longer a legitimate party of government. They have lost a leader who they (mostly) were backing to the hilt until a few days ago (which says everything about their spineless and disastrous misjudgement), even lying about him in order to protect him. Ministers have left in droves, leaving the country in a state of paralysis. There's no way he can run an effective administration from now until September or October, and such is the disarray in the party that it's hard to see how anyone else can pull the show back together. Somehow, we need a general election. After all this, I can see Starmer winning it, in spite of his deficiencies. He did quite well at PMQs yesterday, but an election campaign is a long time in politics...

I suppose we can have a snap election only if he stays at the helm as PM...Discuss... We can be glad he's going, but what a bloody mess...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:30 AM

Someone just said on the BBC that he’s planning to stay on as ‘Caretaker PM’ and currently forming his cabinet. Can it really be true?

Strings are being pulled, buttons pressed, methinks, by the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy non-Dom tax-exiles who run politics in the UK - Johnson is their puppet after all…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Neil D
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:31 AM

So, when is the next general election? Does anyone know yet? I read somewhere that one is mandated for 2024 but there could be one sooner if not soon. What factor(s) determine when one is to be held?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:31 AM

All I know is that I am worried for Larry the Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:48 AM

"the Tories are no longer a legitimate party of government."

Yes they are, they have an large elected majority and there is no need for a Generous Election until January 2025!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 08:00 AM

He is still not taking responsibility. It is now the fault of the Conservative Party herd instinct. He has done nothing wrong and worked wonders for the country. Completely delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 09:04 AM

He blamed months of "sledging." He blamed the Westminster herd instinct. What he didn't do is accept even a scintilla of blame on himself. Not a hint of contrition.

If I were king of the world I'd ban anyone who was still supporting him after six months ago from ever taking public office again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 09:31 AM

It's SFA to do with 'herd instinct' on the part of the Tory Party - they've let him get away with murder for the past three years - and everything to do with Johnson's own 'Trump Instinct'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 09:51 AM

he's gone, he's gone, he's gooooooone . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 10:14 AM

Not yet.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 12:05 PM

And, as always, Jonathan Pie has his finger fair and square on the button, and tells it the way those of us who haven’t allowed ourselves to be drawn, entranced, into the Tory delusional dream-world have always known it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 01:23 PM

I have just made an executive decision, which the Management has agreed with: we'll drink the white wine tonight to celebrate half a victory, and save the Prosecco for when Bunter finally gets removed from the Remove for good an' all. Meanwhile, folks, hang on to yer tin 'ats .... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 02:24 PM

BwM: Is this the dream world where you can escape after seven years, or the one where you dance away a century in one night? (I *knew* there was a reason I went grepping for Tam Lin, but I managed to escape the clutches of e-Faerie before dawn. Methinks there's a song in that somewhere.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 02:34 PM

There is a strong chance he will be gone in four months and a much smaller unfortunate chance it will take longer keb.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 03:11 PM

Suella Braverman wanting to be PM proves that stupid people really are too stupid to understand how stupid they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 03:56 PM

Oh, the delicious irony! You don’t get irony do you, Bonz?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 04:17 PM

I'll tell you what: I'd ten times rather have Boris Johnson as PM than Suella Braverman...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 05:41 PM

You know what, that was a really fair, warm and dignified resignation speech from Boris.

Good on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 05:43 PM

He has not gone yet. That speech of his seems intended to keep his options open. Ihope that things proceed in an orderly fashion. We could all do with a period of calm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 22 - 07:23 PM

In a moment of whimsy, I went on the Betfred website (for the first and last time ever) to see what the betting was like on the next Tory leader. Here goes:

So far, only one would-be leader has put her hat into the ring ahead of the Prime Minister’s formal resignation speech on Thursday afternoon – and that’s Attorney General Suella Braverman who is 33/1 to land the top job.

The big mover in the market is Defence Secretary Wallace – the ex-Scots Guard captain and Wyre and Preston North MP who worked as a ski instructor in Austria before moving to Sandhurst.

The 52-year-old, who lists his hobbies as rugby, skiing, motorsports and horse racing, was 8/1 to become the next Tory leader not long ago, but is now the outright favourite at 9/4 after up to £5,000 was wagered on him on Thursday morning in London and in Lancashire.

Next in the betting is ex-chancellor Rishi Sunak at 4/1, ahead of Penny Mordaunt at 6/1 – while the odds have come in slightly on Foreign Secretary Liz Truss who is quoted at 7/1.

Sajid Javid, who started the wave of resignations on Tuesday evening, is available at 10/1, while at 14/1 is Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab and Tom Tugendhat.

The new chancellor, Nadhim Zahawi, is 16/1 – and it’s 20/1 bar.

God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 03:14 AM

It is only to be expected that many of the cabinet seriously think about standing for PM. By definition, almost anyone in the cabinet, at any time, is likely to be very ambitious. Johnson surrounded himself with people whose most important attribute was loyalty to him. Actual ability was very much a secondary consideration.

So if we rush this, we will almost certainly end up with a PM who lacks ability. And, which Johnson hanging on as PM, there is talk of rushing it to get the shortlist whittled down to two in around 10 days.

We are very likely to end up with another hopeless PM, I am afraid.

My preference, for what it is worth, would be Tom Tugenhat. I think it does need to be someone outside the cabinet. He has potential to be better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 04:54 AM

Tom Tugenhat.is imo the most likely winner. from the point of view of winning the next general election however his name will go against him the brexiteers do not like foreign names

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 05:29 AM

...his name will go against him the brexiteers do not like foreign names

Rishi Sunak at 4/1,
Sajid Javid at 10/1,
Dominic Raab at 14/1 (the same as Tom Tugendhat - both family names are of Czech Jewish origin),
Nadhim Zahawi at 16/1,
Priti Patel ....

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 05:47 AM

…and let’s not forget that de Pfeffel is American by birth.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Boris-Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 06:40 AM

Brilliant Doug!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 06:59 AM

We met Tom Tugenhat at a garden party a few years ago, he's an excellent chap and would make a good PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 07:05 AM

Talking of 'foreign names', I seem to have started a trend on here of misspelling "Tugendhat". Sorry about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 07:26 AM

If it had been anyone other than you, DMcG, I would have pointed out your error, but you’re such a polite, civil, and kind gentleman on here, I would have felt it very churlish indeed to do so! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 07:51 AM

Thank you kindly!

In other news:

Sir Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner did not break Covid laws and will not be fined over Beergate, Durham Police have announced.

A spokesperson added: “There is no case to answer for a contravention of the regulations, due to the application of an exception, namely reasonably necessary work.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 08:56 AM

Not too surprising DMcG, I considered it always as a tory ploy ... the "oh look over there" variety.

I suppose once you have a leader who is renoun for mendacity, who you know will betray you for next too nothing but you are stuck with, you will go to any lengths to distract attention away from his law breaking.

The ONLY MP to be a convicted criminal is how he should be remembered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 09:31 AM

Some years ago, an anonymous Labour elder statesman said, to one of the reporters for The New European, that the next leader of the Tories would be another Brextremist ("for the hard of thinking"), followed by a more wily politician who could actually do the job. Looks like said Labour grandee was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 11:53 AM

"oh look over there" ......................"where"
there - there's a lady that I used to know
She's married now or engaged or something, so I'm told
Is she really going out with him?
Is she really gonna take him home tonight?
Is she really going out with him?
'Cause if my eyes don't deceive me, there's something going wrong around here

bom bom, bom bom ..................................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 12:28 PM

punk folk rocker has been quiet lately.
Rishi Sunak at 4/1,
Sajid Javid at 10/1,
Dominic Raab at 14/1 (the same as Tom Tugendhat - both family names are of Czech Jewish origin),
Nadhim Zahawi at 16/1,
Priti Patel ....
yes every single one of those above will not be chosen as next leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 01:02 PM

Very good Bonzo, have you anything to say about the rest of my post:

"I suppose once you have a leader who is renoun for mendacity, who you know will betray you for next to nothing but you are stuck with, you will go to any lengths to distract attention away from his law breaking.

The ONLY MP to be a convicted criminal is how he should be remembered."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 03:01 PM

So Peter Bone has been appinyed Depury Leader of the House, a role which has not existed while Johnson has been PM so far.

I don't know about you, but to me that looks like a pay rise and miniatrial pension for doing nothing but as a reward for Bone's unconditional support.

I.e. the sleeze continues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 04:56 PM

Well, they aren’t called ‘The Self-servatives’ for nothing…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 04:57 PM

ben wallace will be the next leader, but he will not win a general elction because he is bald, when was the last time a uk politician with a bald head won a general election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 07:16 PM

Dishy Rishi is the current bookmakers' favourite. Well why not. A convict replaced by another convict. Plus ça change...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 07:54 PM

Well I imagine that Rishi was not happy about getting a fine for attending that 'party'. I think nearly all here would not have been happy either. I do wonder if he thought about disputing it but was persuaded otherwise for the good of the 'party' party. He is probably wishing that the Durham police had investigated the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 08:01 PM

Ah yes, but dishy Rishi was clearly bang to rights according to those incriminating photos. In contrast, Starmer was cleared, rightly in my view, because, as the police said, there was no case to answer. For chrissake you've got to eat. Be honest: did those hazy snaps through that window REALLY look like a party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Jul 22 - 08:24 PM

I don't think that either of them were a party.

I do think that there were parties at number 10 during lockdown. I was not invited to any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 04:08 AM

Will the Tory toadies who tried to tar Starmer with the same brush as Johnson over lockdown now be charged with wasting police time?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 04:38 AM

Lifted this from SM this morning, very impressed - absolutely nail/head:-

TWO WORDS

Take your parties and your lies
Just go
Take your jolly clown disguise
Just go
Take your bumbling delusion
Take your cliches, fake confusion
Your corrupted constitution
Go
You’ve had too much of our time
And now the answer’s “No”
Please Prime Minister
Just go

Take your blatant disregard
Just go
Them’s the breaks, however hard
Just go
Take your non-integrity
Your lack of morality
And no common decency
Go
We’re all sick and we’re all tired
Of the Boris Johnson show
Please Prime Minister
Just go

Take your ego and control
Just go
Your empty, blackened, selfish soul
Just go
Take your narcissistic greed
All your cronies and your greed
Every sordid dirty deed
Go
Take your failings, every one
Every body blow
Please Prime Minister
Just go

Take your stupid unkempt hair
Just go
All the untucked shirts you wear
Just go
Take your cheese and take your wine
Your entitled party line
Overdue but now’s the time
Go
Leave means leave means leave
As Brexiteers all know
Please Prime Minister
Just go

Take this fake buffoonery
Just go
The Bunter-lite cartoonery
Just go
Take your crass duplicity
Poison and toxicity
All your moral bankruptcy
Go
Goodbye and good riddance
You reap all that you sow
Please Prime Minister
Just go

Everybody’s had enough
Of all your superficial stuff
Be you sacked or overthrown or simply just struck off
Two words Mister Johnson
…. Just go

Paul Cookson
Poem 901
Saturday 9th July 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 05:22 AM

Of course he was at a party! Look at all the photos, not just the ones that make him look like an innocent bystander!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 05:50 AM

What worries me about those photos is all the blurred people in them. They remind me worryingly of the Dr Who end-of-season episodes where blurs like that were greeted as ghosts of the recently departed, but turned out to be cybermen.

.... But Herself has nailed de Pfeffel: Carcer, from Terry Pratchett's The Night Watch (a stone-cold psychopath who will stand there with stolen watches in one hand and a blood-stained knife in the other, and a "Who, me?" smirk on his face, taunting the Watch to do something about it without themselves going to the bad).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 05:56 AM

More on dishy Rishi:

His wife is a non-dom who owns almost £700 million in shares in her dad's company, and other holdings (shadily?) not disclosed. As a non-dom she gets massive potential relief from paying inheritance tax. In fact, they are secretive about most of her holdings, controversially not declared on registers of interests. She has declined to pay UK tax on her overseas earnings until recently and hasn't paid back-tax. Sunak founded a hedge fund company in the Cayman Islands (we know why there, don't we?). Sunak held a Green Card, entitling him to permanent residence in the US, for six years whilst an MP, nearly two years whilst Chancellor. They have an apartment in Santa Monica. Seems he was hedging his bets, keeping his options open to move back to the US in case his political career didn't work out well. In April he brought in tax breaks for non-dom hedge fund managers.

Of course, I'm expecting someone to tell me that his wife's affairs are nothing to do with him. My arse, would be my answer to that. Many of his actions as Chancellor have been to help people like her (and her) to avoid giving any of their vast wealth away. In his video he claimed to be a patriot. Well if he's a patriot he's a patriot who works his socks off to make sure that incredibly wealthy people don't pay their fair share to the country he purports to love.

He's no patriot. He's a nest-featherer, a hypocrite, a convict and, just like his erstwhile boss (who, don't forget, he backed to the hilt, in spite of everything, until opportunistically stabbing him in the back at the very last minute), a bloody liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 06:50 AM

"and hasn't paid back-tax" - what back tax??? Do you have a copy of her tax return???

"he's a convict" - really, that is ultra lefty drivel!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 07:04 AM

bonzo you are up barking creek without a paddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 07:41 AM

And still, the delusional and hard-of-thinking try to defend the indefensible…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 07:45 AM

Rowena Mason, Guardian, 8 April:

Sunak’s wife, Akshata Murty, bowed to pressure to pay UK taxes on Friday night, after Boris Johnson said he had been unaware she was a “non-dom” and fresh questions emerged over the couple’s tax affairs.

With Sunak’s position under increasing threat, Murty said she realised many people felt her tax arrangements were not “compatible with my husband’s job as chancellor”, adding that she appreciated the “British sense of fairness”.

She will pay tax on all worldwide income in future and for the last tax year, but not on backdated income, which could have saved her an estimated £20m of UK tax on foreign earnings from her billionaire father’s Indian IT company.

This was also on the BBC News website and elsewhere.

She is a non-dim because she elected to be one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 07:46 AM

"bonzo you are up barking creek without a paddle"

Can you please explain to me how she has not paid "back taxes"??

This is the current tax legislation:

People whose foreign income is more than £2,000 must report it in a tax return. You then have a choice of paying UK tax on it, or claiming what is known as the “remittance basis”.

Claiming the remittance basis means you only pay UK tax on the income or gains you bring to the UK, and you must pay an annual charge if you have been living in the UK for a certain amount of time.

You pay an annual charge of:

£30,000 if you have been here for at least seven of the previous nine tax years
£60,000 for at least 12 of the previous 14 tax years

Now tell me what you mean by "back taxes"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 07:48 AM

Hit send by accident there.

She is a non-dom because she elected to be one. She is paying those UK taxes because she elected to, in order to avoid embarrassing fishy Rishi. She is not paying tax for previous years. Clear enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 08:16 AM

""he's a convict" - really, that is ultra lefty drivel!!!"

No Bonzo it is hard recorded FACT, no if's, no but's no maybe's but pure FACT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 08:25 AM

Clearly you know nothing about UK, the tax legislation provides that a non-dom can elect to pay tax on the remittance basis. Claiming the remittance basis means you only pay UK tax on the income or gains you bring to the UK, and you must pay an annual charge if you have been living in the UK for a certain amount of time.

You pay an annual charge of:

£30,000 if you have been here for at least seven of the previous nine tax years
£60,000 for at least 12 of the previous 14 tax years

Live with it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 08:44 AM

I'm confused by the convict/criminal comments. Going by this article in the i online, I don't see those who accepted fixed penalties for Partygata and paid are classed as criminals.

Will the Partygate FPNs go onto a criminal record?

Accepting an FPN is not the same as receiving a criminal conviction, which would then appear as part of a person’s criminal record.

And FPNs issued under coronavirus legislation are not be recorded on the Police National Computer although local records may be held by the relevant police force.

Perhaps someone can clarify/explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 09:35 AM

I didn't call him a criminal, just a convict. He was convicted of breaking the law. I've been fined for speeding four times (in 54 years I hasten to add). I can't argue with anyone who wants to say that I was convicted four times. All but the first time (in 1968) were fixed penalties. Still convictions I think. We speak freely of speeding convictions, don't we.

By the way, Bonzo, I wasn't talking about legalities. I was talking about the tax decisions the couple have made, which certainly seem to have largely been moves which favour their rich selves and their fellow wealthy. It's about character when you're considering who might be the next PM. My point was that I can't see how incredibly wealthy people who do their damnedest to pay as little tax as possible in their own country can call themselves "patriots."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 11:25 AM

I wasn't talking about legalities. I was talking about the tax decisions the couple have made, which certainly seem to have largely been moves which favour their rich selves and their fellow wealthy

I agree wholeheartedly. Moral/Patriotic behaviour and lawful are not the same. If I have the power to make laws, I can choose how I want to behave, and what is most beneficial to me then write the laws so that is lawful. It means nothing. The Moral/patriotic choice is to do what is for the good of others/the country even though it could do you harm, because you judge the good of the country as more important then your own wallet.

It has been said 'patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' (copyright a rather different Johnson)   To me, especially for those who make the law, 'it is lawful' runs a close second.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 11:28 AM

"I agree wholeheartedly. Moral/Patriotic behaviour and lawful are not the same. If I have the power to make laws, I can choose how I want to behave, and what is most beneficial to me then write the laws so that is lawful. It means nothing. The Moral/patriotic choice is to do what is for the good of others/the country even though it could do you harm, because you judge the good of the country as more important then your own wallet."

You do talk absolute bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 01:09 PM

Bonzo, would you care to explain what is "absolute bollocks" in DMcG's post. As far as I can see it is a perfectly sensible and logical statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 01:27 PM

Patriotism
an interesting word, the way that is has been used by journalists and authors of repute, such as Bernard Shaw, DRJohnson, Bertrand Russell Oscar Wilde, are vastly different from the ex schoolmaster Steve Shaw.,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 01:50 PM

anyone can call themselves a patriot, horatio bottonmley did just that, and was actually engaging in criminal.activitie

On 14 January 1915, 6 months into World War I, the Royal Albert Hall played host to the ‘Great Patriotic Rally’ – one of the most memorable public meetings in the venue’s history.

The Great Patriotic Rally was organised by the proprietor of the hugely popular John Bull magazine, Mr Horatio Bottomley: a convicted swindler and disgraced ex-Liberal MP who was forced to resign from his seat after filing for bankruptcy in 1912.





His John Bull magazine claimed a circulation in excess of 2 million by 1914, making it by some distance the best-selling news weekly of its day, and promoted itself as the most patriotic publication of a patriotic era. It called on its readers to hate the “Germ Huns” and “Austrihuns”, against whom Britain was fighting.


Horatio Bottomley

This rally at the Hall saw Bottomley depict the war as a struggle to the death between the Anglo-Saxon and Teutonic races, declaring:

“We are fighting all that is worst in the world, the product of a debased civilization”.

The Hall’s management had underestimated how many people would try to attend and chaos ensued as 12,000 people tried to pack themselves into the auditorium to hear the charismatic speaker. It reportedly took Bottomley over 2 hours to reach the stage before he could even start the meeting!



In this extract from Bottomley’s speech made on the day we get a flavour of the rhetoric used:

“I cannot think of any prouder boast for any Britisher to make when the war is over — that he took an active and vital part in ridding England and the world of a great, a hideous menace, which, but for his intervention, might have wiped out the civilization of our past ages and everything worth living for or dying for on the earth.

I ask those young men if they do not really feel that there is a call to them. I ask them if they cannot hear their comrades calling to them from the trenches, calling to them from the hospitals, calling to them from the decks of the sea-dogs who are guarding our shores day in and night in. If they do not hear that call they are unworthy to claim the name of Englishman.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 05:08 PM

Those who insist on using the word 'Convict' to describe certain MPs might like to check a dictionary.
Doing a search for 'convict meaning OED' gets:

convict
verb
/k?n'v?kt/
declare (someone) to be guilty of a criminal offence by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.
"the thieves were convicted of the robbery"
Similar:
declare/find/pronounce guilty
sentence
give someone a sentence
send down for
Opposite:
acquit
clear
noun
/'k?nv?kt/
a person found guilty of a criminal offence and serving a sentence of imprisonment.
"two escaped convicts kidnapped them at gunpoint"

Most other dictionaries come up with similar definitions.
This would seem to mean that you cannot become a convict by accepting a FPN (fixed penalty notice) as they are issued by the police with no input from the courts. This also explains why those accepting such notices do not have a 'police record'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 05:52 PM

Bottomley who called himself a patriot was in fact a convict. Nigel are you seriously trying to sqy he was not a convicted criminal

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 22 - 06:23 PM

Nigel, as I explained I have several speeding convictions. Does that make me a convict? Well I suppose it does within the context of speeding convictions. I'm not a convict in the context of every other area of life. If I go to work on the train, I'm a commuter. When I'm at home watching the telly, I'm not a commuter. However, I may be a viewer. But I'm not a viewer when I'm weeding my veg plot. I suppose "convict" carries too much baggage for some people to stomach, unlike commuter or viewer. The plain fact is that yer man was convicted of breaking the lockdown laws, and, let's face it, they were real laws. Just like those speeding laws, which have handed me three, er, convictions, they handed fishy Rishi a conviction. Words, words, words...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 03:29 AM

maybe it's pedantic semantics to discuss the intricacies of these crimes, convictions etc. what is indisputable is that they are guilty of being tories and guilty of maintaining and supporting a known criminal in high office while he/they have done significant damage to the economic and social life of the UK. i don't suppose it is necessarily a crime to be dim and greedy but it's irritating and dispiriting for us to listen to their lies and excuses every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 04:13 AM

Yes, we get it, Dick. The word patriotism has been abused for a long time. Until someone comes up with a good word for love of one's country while still acknowledging its faults and without the exclusivity associated with nationalism, I shall continue to use patriotism in its true sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 05:02 AM

"maybe it's pedantic semantics to discuss the intricacies of these crimes, convictions etc. what is indisputable is that they are guilty of being tories and guilty of maintaining and supporting a known criminal in high office while he/they have done significant damage to the economic and social life of the UK. i don't suppose it is necessarily a crime to be dim and greedy but it's irritating and dispiriting for us to listen to their lies and excuses every day."

dum de dum de dum de dum

I never thought you lefties could become more boring and sanctimonious, collect your gold medals here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 05:17 AM

Not gold medals. Red ribbons if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 06:04 AM

FFS Steve, don’t encourage the muppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 22 - 01:56 PM

Dave, let us remember Canute
Canute set his throne by the sea shore and commanded the incoming tide to halt and not wet his feet and robes. Yet "continuing to rise as usual [the tide] dashed over his feet and legs without respect to his royal person. Then the king leapt backwards, saying: 'Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws.'" He then hung his gold crown on a crucifix, and never wore it again "to the honour of God the almighty King"
    Dave, you remind me of someone trying to stop the tide of language and its usage, you may claim others are abusing it but you are a voice crying in the wilderness, if journaists who as you say, misuse the word but get their misuse printed in thousands, you are rather handicapped, best of luck

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 02:32 AM

I am not just saying it is misused, Dick. It IS misused. The word gay is misused. The flag of St George is misused. I accept that things are misused, I understand what is being said and I know that I cannot stop the tide of misuse. Try reading what I actually said about coming up with a better word. Something that I challenged you to do some time back and which, to date, you have failed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 03:28 AM

but you are pissing in the wind
you do not stand a chance of changing its so called misuse whilst the majority of communicators are using it in the way you disapprove of.
you remind me of Don Quixote,
if you can come up with a better word but no one else is using it, you really are wasting your time, because journalists are not going to take any notice of you.
you remind me of the charming eccentrics who speak at hyde park corner

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 03:59 AM

I am sure this is going the rounds on all sorts of social media, but my sister sent it to me, and I hadn't seen it before.


I like the hashtags
#LizForLeader
#ReadyForRishi
#PMforPM

I’m waiting for Nadines.
#GoNads

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 04:19 AM

I have no intention of even trying to change anything, Dick. As I have repeatedly said I accept that words are misused. Nor have I ever said I disapprove. Language is a wonderful fluid thing that changes constantly. The point that I keep making and that you don't seem to understand is that I have no other word for how I feel about the country. For the third time of asking, please feel free to give me a word, other than patriotism, that means the love of one's country that is neither exclusive or supremacist and I will happily use it. Until then, I shall continue to use patriotism in the way I learnt it. If you feel that is old fashioned or "charming" then fine. You are just as entitled to your opinion of me as I am to my opinion of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 04:25 AM

DMcG - I'm pinching that :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 06:02 AM

I sympathise, DtG. "Hacker" used to mean a programming creative; but since the meeja battened onto "hack" to specifically mean an act of electronic lockpicking, I'm at a loss to describe in social contexts what I do did for a living.

--- Oops: Herself's just got back. I'll save my microrant about flags on TV for another time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 07:10 AM

Gnome, Iam telling you that the way it is generally used or as you say misued is much more prevalent than the way you insist is correct , you are in a huge minority and remind me of flat earthers, you are a pisser in the wind

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 07:47 AM

You are not telling me anything, Dick. I already know that it is widely used instead of nationalism. I know I am in a minority. Come to think of it there are times when being able to spell and use puctuation puts me in a minority as well but I will not let that stop me :-) Now, what is the word for a love of one's country that does not have the negative baggage attached to it? I await your respose but shall not hold my breath...

MaJoC - Yes. And now what appear in online feeds as 'hacks' are what we used to call hints and tips. How long has tying a piece of bright ribbon to your suitcase so you can spot it been a hack?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 08:07 AM

" Now, what is the word for a love of one's country that does not have the negative baggage attached to it?"

It'll have to be two words, Dave. "Shag Britannia."

There!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 08:20 AM

A newsletter from the Telegraph (yes, I get those as well as other paper's views!) reports Rees-Mogg is ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 08:36 AM

> bright ribbon

Now I really am dischuffed. *Gak*. But come to think, "hack" in the coding sense hits the same hash bucket as "tips and tricks"; and in the 1950s, "hacking" used to mean muckin' around (I was surprised to see it appear with that meaning in Friday the Rabbi Slept Late). So even coders were late to that party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 09:02 AM

Mrrzy, 75MPH or 120KPH is the speed limit on Motorways in Ireland, many people push up this a bit or travelling at 80MPH or 128KPH is not uncommon.

I was stopped for speeding once in America the cop said when he looked at my license "Hey you got endoresments for driving ............... cool"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 09:04 AM

Bugger, don't know how that got posted to the wrong thread, sorry Guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jul 22 - 09:34 AM

We forgive you, Raggy: this alleged government's moonshots* should be being documented in the worst-possible-taste-joke thread.

* .... och, write your own definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 22 - 05:01 AM

I think they might choose a woman,because they think it might look like a chane

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jul 22 - 05:50 AM

...it might look like a chane

I assume you meant "change". The name Conservatives suggests that they are averse to change.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Jul 22 - 05:53 AM

They have already had 2 female Prime Ministers, so it would not be too much of a change for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 22 - 05:26 PM

As it's so important to get a laugh whenever you can during these tragic times (I mean, just look at that "last eight"), here are two gags I found in the Guardian comments columns this morning:

An Englishman, an Indian and an American walked into a bar.

The barman said, "what can I get for you, Mr Sunak?"



Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nadine Dorries now backing Liz Truss: typical Tories getting it arse about face, two hernias supporting a truss...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 22 - 08:27 PM

I see that fishy Rishi's entourage banned the Guardian's John Crace from his press conference today. Well well!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 02:47 AM

As I commented under John Crace's article, Rishi press people have a poor understanding of media if they think keeping a journalist out of the meeting is going to stop the said journalist from writing an article about it.

In fact, you can be fairly certain that the story of exclusion will resurface again and again until Rishi leaves politics, whether that is six months or six years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 03:53 AM

who would be the best candidate from opposition parties point of view, p patel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 06:38 AM

Zahawi has said that he'd offer Boris Johnson a job in his cabinet.

I have no words....p

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 06:44 AM

> banned the Guardian's John Crace

Trying to shoot the messenger, because it worked so well last time. Doing it in public invites the Streisand Effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 07:05 AM

offering johnson a job in the cabinet, is a wild gamble, what minstry could he hold.
Zahawi should be ruled out immediately, that might be a populist move but it is evidence of someone who cannot see the consequences of their actions
johnson has shown that his weakness is inattention to detail, perhaps he could be minster for humour

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 07:29 AM

"I have no words....p"

I know that we are living in strange times but I do find that statement hard to believe.

I also find it unbelievable that anyone would offer Johnson a place in the cabinet. I expect him to be off as soon as possible in order to make some money on the lecture circuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 09:23 AM

Yes, I accidentally peed on that post. ;-)

I keep asking myself which of 'em would be the best candidate. But there isn't one. As Ian Blackford said in the Commons, they all make Genghis Khan look like a moderate...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 10:39 AM

maybe give johnson defense. Apart from risking total annihilation, at least he would not be in a position to endanger any individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 11:01 AM

how about bonzo for prime minster at least he would look after the welfare of dogs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 12:44 PM

Looks like three vaguely sane (Rishi, Penny, Tom) verses three looking far from it (kemi, Liz, Suella)

Too soon for predictions!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 02:53 PM

One prediction that I can make, whoever gets the hot seat: I forsee much back-seat driving and sock-puppetry in the next PM's life. Please see also my update of the parody wot I wrote on the subject in the light of today's events (plus the edit in the next entry).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 03:41 PM

"how about bonzo for prime minster at least he would look after the welfare of dogs"

I'm afraid not, I no longer do suits and ties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 06:19 PM

Latest choices:
The six candidates in the Conservative Party leadership race,
Liz Truss, Tom Tugendhat, Kemi Badenoch. Suella Braverman, Rishi Sunak and Penny Mordaunt

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 22 - 07:13 PM

I think it'll be Mordaunt. Shoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 12:48 AM

yes i agree she is not bald, she is a woman [ so there appears to be a change]and she is white,so she appeals to brexiteers who may have racist inclinations, she does not appear to have any skeletons in the cupboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 03:56 AM

Could our resident accountant and conservative supporter,B 3LEGS explain who is going to pay for the proposed tax cuts promised by certain conservative Mps involved in the leadership election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 05:32 AM

(1) Cuts to public services (NHS, Transport and so on), more and increased chares for using services and more backdoor privatisation.

(2) Making claimants more accountable for DWP errors, and probably extending sanctions regime, and further restrictions directed at people with disabilities and long term conditions (anyone who does not fit in with the tory 'happy citizen' branding. Also making UC for those in full time employment more restrictive and not being particularly bothered about whether people can cope on low wages.

(3) Not caring about scorched earth they leave behind if they lose power as they can plough into any opposition party that has to spend money to repair the damage, and if, by any chance they stay in power not really caring as they will fall back to the mantra of blaming Labour for the world-wide credit crunch in 1996 who apparently were responsible for the toxic sub prime lending in America.

(4) Continuing to turn the screws on Local Authorities so they (particularly Labour Councils) get blames for cuts to local services. At the same time, providing a short term capital investment to make high streets look pretty for a while without addressing long-term issues and deprivation.

(5) Encourage everyone to do their 'bit'. Mitigate a tiny percentage of the cost of living and deterioration of peoples lifestyles with comparatively small giveaways, while giving higher paid workers bigger tax breaks to make the average look good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 05:59 AM

Promising big swingeing tax cuts from day one is a classic example of a direct lift from the Boris Bunter Book Of Big Lies. It can't be done. Well, unless they do what Tories always do, give us a 20p with one hand and take away a 50p with the other (which is why this country has just about the biggest tax burden ever).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 10:34 AM

”Well, unless they do what Tories always do, give us a 20p with one hand and take away a 50p with the other (which is why this country has just about the biggest tax burden ever).”

Except, of course, they only do that to ‘the little people’ like you, me, and everyone else here. They do precisely the reverse to their wealthy cronies - hence the huge increase in the wealth-gap since 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 11:51 AM

she is white,so she appeals to brexiteers who may have racist inclinations

The first person to make a point of the race of any of the candidates accuses the Brexiteers of racism. Oh, the irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 02:16 PM

Nigel, don’t feed the…well, you know! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 03:07 PM

Mordaunt is an arrogant stupid cow with her gender neutral nonsense

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 03:18 PM

Do you use language like that when you are away from a keyboard?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 22 - 04:02 PM

certainly

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 22 - 01:28 PM

The thing is Rain Dog, it does get deleted here. Sadly, in real life, he spouts his bigotry with impunity. Until he starts it in a situation where he is likely to get his teeth knocked down his throat of course :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jul 22 - 02:07 PM

So you object to my referring to gender neutral nonsense do you??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jul 22 - 03:01 PM

DtG, Sadly some people have no concept of how gender equality has been a long fought battle to find its way into legislation, but still has far to go. By categorising people into gender-specific roles, it atill, to this day, applies value judgement where women are considered to be in sub-servient roles.

The other problem, is that garbage like the daily mail, telegraph, express attempts to ridicule any real attempt to break down gender barriers, parroted by the ignorant. The same goes for race, LBGT, disability and most recently transgender. Rather than enter into what is difficult debate reconciling women's and trans people's right, all tory voters can do is reinforce the prejudices and mock any proper discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 22 - 03:10 PM

The very same people deny the work that the trade unions have done over the past decades to improve the lot of the working person, whether that be as a banker, a shopworker, a nurse or a labourer.

We have all benefitted greatly from their efforts, sadly some people cannot accept that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jul 22 - 04:07 PM

Strange that C4 are hosting a debate to help 358 MPs and 150,000 members of one political party decide how they are planning to affect our lives until the next general election, as if this would somehow be implicit consent by 65,000,000 who have no say whatsoever for their proposed policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 05:30 AM

Trad unions exist for very good reasons.
Bonxzo if Mordaunt is elected will you still vote conservative.
In my experience dog shit and dog owners are more of a problem than cat shit, when i walk along pavements it is been my 100 per cent experience, that dog shit is what i have to avoid stepping in., not cat shit, not human shit, not goat shit, not elephant shit not horse shit but dog shit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:00 AM

Quote of the day

Chosing the next tory leader is like deciding which portaloo to use on the third day of a rock festival

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:07 AM

We have the same problem Sandman, but not in our street. We are nice thoughtful middle class people here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:17 AM

yes i am sure it is a minority of dog owners that cause the problems

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:45 AM

however a majority of cat owners are not interested in what their pets are doing for most of the time, while they (cats, not their occasionally- interested owners) shit in my flower beds, eat millions of wee birds and wind up my lurcher

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:55 AM

Cats also kill rats and mice, They do not shit on the pavement neither do they shit in my garden, so i have no personal problem with cats

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 07:06 AM

Is that a new version of Nimby behaviour?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 07:21 AM

Cats do shit on the pavement, I have seen them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 07:29 AM

Only in Croydon:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 07:44 AM

Good job we live in very South Croydon!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 10:47 AM

DtG, re portaloos at rock festivals: Nice one, and in appropriate taste.

My brother went to Greenbelt one year: good music, he said, but crowded, and the sanitary arrangements were the (*ahem*) stuff of legend. It was alleged that someone had managed to reserve a large area to pitch his tent in by the simple expedient of putting up a notice saying "SITE OF LAST YEAR'S BOGS".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 11:32 AM

We are enjoying a Conservative garden party with 2 MPs present!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 06:30 PM

Competition first prize: a Conservative garden party with two MPs present.

Competition second prize: two Conservative garden parties with two MPs present.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 22 - 08:07 PM

MP's for now perhaps, I wonder if the same invitation would be extended if, and when, they are unemployed?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 03:12 AM

would bonzo welcome them if they were trans gender,or even if they had Clinical lycanthropy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 05:13 AM

I think the worst result from opposition parties viewpoint would be Penny Mordaunt

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 05:23 AM

Yebbut don't forget that she will have two years to screw up, which she will.

This is a highly disreputable way to pick a prime minister. I know it's not the first time and that it's not just Tories who do it. I think that a general election should have automatically been triggered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:02 AM

"would bonzo welcome them if they were trans gender,or even if they had Clinical lycanthropy"

Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 11:11 AM

"I think the worst result from opposition parties viewpoint would be Penny Mordaunt"

She knows that the other parties are scared shitless of her!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 11:14 AM

This is a highly disreputable way to pick a prime minister. I know it's not the first time and that it's not just Tories who do it. I think that a general election should have automatically been triggered.

Be careful what you wish for. If that had been the case, and if the Conservatives were likely to lose many seats in a General Election, then sitting members would have been less likely to come-out against Boris, and he would still be PM.
The current party can only work within the parliamentary party rules as they currently stand.
Labour could call for a vote of confidence on the current government, but chose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 02:02 PM

"Labour could call for a vote of confidence on the current government, but chose not to."

Incorrect Nigel. Labour did call for a vote of no-confidence, it was refused by the tories

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 02:08 PM

Labour did call for a vote of no-confidence, it was refused by the tories

Even more strangely. a government spokesman said the reason the online bill is not being debated is because Labour called for that vote of confidence, which was refused so did not happen, but as if by magic disrupted the Parliamentary timetable anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 03:35 PM

Incorrect Nigel. Labour did call for a vote of no-confidence, it was refused by the tories
Labour called for a vote of confidence on the current government, and Boris Johnson.
Boris has already given a timetable for his finishing, and such a motion would cause confusion as to whether the vote was about the government, or about Boris.
By the way it was worded the Conservatives could refuse the debate. Labour were told that if they tabled a vote of confidence in the government it would be debated.

Because the Labour Party messed up, the Conservatives have said that they will call for a vote of confidence in the government. BBC News

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 03:44 PM

Ridiculous, the labour party messed up.
Boris is the one who has messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 05:23 PM

BoNzo, The conservatives have not been very good at choosing their leaders, boris is an example,
Rishi Sunak is now favourite, so looks like the Tories are picking the wrong leader again., a man whose skeletons are going to rattle his cage again and again, whose financial shenanigans will lose him the next general election, hooray

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:09 PM

Nigel is correct, actually. The wording of Labour's no confidence motion was a blunder that allowed the Tories to make fools of Labour. It's precisely the kind of thing that worries me about Starmer. What a cockup.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:18 PM

I am afraid that Nigel, who is known to be a pedant of the extreme varity, is failing to ackowledge that the Labour party did indeed ask for a vote of no confidence in the government.

That is was perchance badly worded does not change that fact.

They DID ask for a vote of no confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:23 PM

They did, but the fact that they mixed Boris up within the motion was a stupid blunder. I'm still a Labour Party member, but I must admit that I groaned and held my head in my hands when I saw what they were doing with that motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 02:32 AM

It is not how I would have played the game, but I don't see it was a stupid blunder.   The options before Labour were to do nothing, call for a standard confidence vote, call for a general vote on whether Johnson should stay, or call for a no-confidence vote in Johnson. They opted for the latter. They would not have been granted the general vote on Johnson, because there is no requirement such a motion be granted in any timescale.

My personal preference would have been to call for a standard confidence vote and then at every opportunity during the debate point out that a loss did not mean a general election must be called: since the Conservative party is large enough they could go to the Queen and say Raab or someone had the confidence of the house and so could form a new Conservative government for the interim.   That is, throughout the whole debate keep emphasising all those voting for the confidence motion are really just voting to keep Johnson in position, not the party. There would be no general election.

But that is risky. The whole point of the vote was to get MPs to vote in favour of keeping Johnson in power, and without the explicit mention of him, Labour would not be able to say 'your MP voted to keep Johnson even after he was forced out' on campaign literature. That will be much harder without the reference to Johnson in the motion, but it is still just about possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 09:43 AM

Raggytash:
I am afraid that Nigel, who is known to be a pedant of the extreme varity, is failing to ackowledge that the Labour party did indeed ask for a vote of no confidence in the government.
No, they did not. A call for a vote of confidence in the government would have led to debate and a vote. They decided to wreck their own attempt at getting a vote. For what reason I cannot know.

DMcG: It is not how I would have played the game, but I don't see it was a stupid blunder.   The options before Labour were to do nothing, call for a standard confidence vote, call for a general vote on whether Johnson should stay, or call for a no-confidence vote in Johnson. They opted for the latter. They would not have been granted the general vote on Johnson, because there is no requirement such a motion be granted in any timescale.
They did not 'opt for the latter' (a confidence vote in Johnson). They combined the options of a vote of confidence in the government with a vote of confidence in Johnson.
Basically, they messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 10:38 AM

The is no way Labour could have a vote of no-confidence in Johnson except by a no confidence in the government under Johnson, which is what they opted for.

A vote purely on Johnson would not be granted, but if it was the Conservatives could all abstain, and it would not be binding. The only binding vote and compulsory vote is a no confidence vote. That is why that is the option I would have gone for, as I said.

If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it. The only other alternative is to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 12:00 PM

If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it. The only other alternative is to do nothing.

Can't think of anything. But why try to remove him when he's already going?
Only his own party can request a vote of confidence in him. They did, he survived it.
Labour can try to bring down the government by a vote of confidence in the government. Which would (if successful) bring about a General Election.
Other than that, the question of who leads the Conservative Party is not really a matter for the Labour Party.
If you want to see it from a different perspective, the Conservative Party had no control over Blair handing control to Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 12:14 PM

Labour can try to bring down the government by a vote of confidence in the government. Which would (if successful) bring about a General Election.
As I pointed out, no it doesn't. Losing a vote of no confidence would kick in a period of 14 days during which the Conservatives could propose some other person who commands the majority of the house. With the majority they have, that should be relatively easy. The only person guaranteed to lose their position would be Johnson.

As to why? Well, there are several reasons but one that might appeal to the Conservatives might to show that they have found Johnson's behaviour unacceptable and rather than let him leave 'with his head held high' they think it would be better for the next leader if he was dismissed taking all the blame for parties and other misjudgements. It would help to sell the story that all the dubious behaviour was due to Johnson, and it is genuinely a rejection of that style of government.

I think that would be a hard sell, but that politics for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 01:01 PM

Herself is enduring the coverage of That Debate downstairs, while (despite the heat) I'm cowering upstairs, not quite out of range. I didn't realise quite how much de Pfeffel's voice sounds like quacking, which makes sense once one has heard of duckspeak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 02:58 PM

DMcG:
As I pointed out, no it doesn't. Losing a vote of no confidence would kick in a period of 14 days during which the Conservatives could propose some other person who commands the majority of the house. With the majority they have, that should be relatively easy. The only person guaranteed to lose their position would be Johnson.

That seems to answer your earlier question:
If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 03:48 PM

Is there anything you cannot argue semantics about Nigel? Everyone, bar you, understands what is being said. Maybe you need to find another hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 04:31 PM

A majority belief in something doesn't make it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 06:14 PM

As you all know, I limit my posts to avoid pointless arguments, so this will be my last on this topic.

I was asking for ways to hold a vote that Labour could call to get rid of Johnson. In fact, the 'simple' no-confidence vote was the one I said said I would have gone with at the outset, so no, I don't think I have fallen into any kind of trap of inconsistency. I saw it then as possible, but unlikely to be successful.

But the problem is that does not work unless it can be strongly bound to a vote on Johnson.   Calling a vote that you would almost certainly lose that is not strongly linked achieved nothing. It achieves neither of the goals Labour might want: it does not get rid of Johnson, but nor does it show MPs supporting him: "we were supporting the government, not him."

To stand a chance it was necessary to break the lie that many MPs will have fallen for, just as I am afraid Nigel did, that voting for a no confidence leads to a General Election.   It is a deliberate misrepresentation of what must happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 07:35 PM

What am I supposed to belive. As reported in todays Guardian:

"Conservative MPs voted against a confidence motion in the government on Monday evening, with several giving speeches praising Johnson."

Or am I supposed to believe a pedant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 04:26 AM

Not surprised. Why wouldn't lying s***s with contempt for everyone they see beneath them do anything else than fawn to another lying **** with contempt for everyone his sees beneath him. As far as they are concerned, they are our masters, and in their eyes the likes of us are sub-humans who are a drain on their pockets by living to long after we are non longer fit for purpose to add to their wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:04 AM

Raggytash.
What am I supposed to believe. As reported in todays Guardian:

"Conservative MPs voted against a confidence motion in the government on Monday evening, with several giving speeches praising Johnson."

Well, for a start, if you wish to believe the Guardian (and it is often accurate) give a link to your quotes.
According to their online version: Guardian conservatives voted for the motion, not against as you have stated.

From the above link: After rejecting a Labour motion that the Commons had no confidence in Boris Johnson’s government, the Conservatives put forward their own motion to the effect that the House does in fact have confidence in the government. Tory MPs were expected to back the government and carry the motion, and they did. Find out how your MP voted

This is not just pedantry. It is the correction of false claims being made, either deliberately, or in error.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:36 AM

It's very easy to find, Nigel. Google gave me this link in the first search I did.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/18/tom-tugendhat-knocked-out-tory-leadership-race-final-four

The quoted line is at the end of the article. I don't know if you did not look very hard deliberately or in error...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:33 AM

OK I will put this as simply as I can. Labour wanted to table a motion of no-confidence in the government and Johnson. The tories blocked that motion and substituted their own.

So a vote of no confidence WAS tabled but by the tories which was voted out.

Just as an aside Tobias Ellwood, tory MP for Bouremouth East has had the party whip woithdrawn from him for not supporting the government.

link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:44 AM

From the article:

"The government won by 349 to 238, a majority of 111. In a highly unusual move, No 10 called the vote of confidence in itself after it rejected a Labour motion that singled out Johnson.

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Labour had originally said it would seek to hold a confidence vote after Johnson announced he was staying on as prime minister until the autumn and a new Conservative leader was in place.

However, the government refused to accept the wording of the Labour motion, which expressed no confidence in the government and the prime minister, so ministers tabled a motion of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:48 AM

Yeah, they didn't hang about when it came to withdrawing the whip from a Mordaunt supporter... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 09:37 AM

I searched for Guardian and confidence motion.
It appears from the two quotes that the Guardian disagree with themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 09:48 AM

Nigel, life is too short to play silly buggers with you.

A vote of no confidence took place.

Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 10:32 AM

I think we can safely predict almost all of Kemi Badenoch's votes going to Liz Truss, which would be much more then Mordaunt's tally. The final two looks pretty certain now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 12:52 PM

Useful tip if you didn't know, Nigel. If you want to search for an exact phrase, put it in "quotes". It may have saved you the embarrassment of saying Raggy's claim was false when it was no such thing.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 01:04 PM

Her father was a professor of pure mathematics at the University of Leeds, while her mother was a nurse, teacher, and member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Truss has described both as being "to the left of Labour" When Truss later stood for election to Parliament as a Conservative, her mother agreed to campaign for her, while her father declined to do so.
Truss was President of Oxford University Liberal Democrats and a member of the national executive committee of Liberal Democrat Youth and Students.
imo She appears to be a political opportunist and a person whose motives are personal glory.is she more electable than Sunak?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 03:15 PM

She accused the secondary school that she attended in Leeds as letting down the children who went there (even though it's always done fine with OFSTED, not that that means much...). I suppose she feels really let down that her school got her to Oxford and that she's now a candidate for prime minister.

Opportunist, Dick? I have a better word: arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 03:41 PM

That as well, I wonder who Starmer would prefer as an opponent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 04:06 PM

Boris a wassack? well he was sacked
wassack - Urban Dictionary
https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=wass...
somebody who doesnt seem to do anything right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:00 PM

I imagine, Steve, she feels the school let lots of children down but she is so exceptionally intelligent and talented it didn't affect her...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 06:13 PM

I suppose her school let her down inasmuch as they prepared her for being a candidate for prime minister when she's actually completely unfit for the role. How unfair. They should have prepared her instead for being a checkout girl at Lidl, where she could do a lot less damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:38 PM

Thats unfair Steve, I know a few ladies who work on the check-out and Lidl, without exception they are kind, considerate and generous people.

Could anyone say the same for Truss?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:46 PM

I was thinking that such a role would make her far sweeter, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 05:32 AM

Rather than just slag off the Conservative party candidates, how about throwing some light on the Labour Party?
According to Yesterday's Morning Star: "Senior Labour staff created secret fund to undermine Corbyn"
Details Here

An interesting read, but nothing really unexpected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 06:18 AM

Oh Nigel we don't need to slag off the Labour party, we have people to do that for us !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 11:12 AM

Ok, so it is Liz Truss, or Rishi Sunak for next PM.

It's a difficult one. I think Truss is likely to be far easier for Labour to challenge successfully, but Rishi will do a better job as PM for the country. Truss seems incredibly weak on any thoughts of her own - all her career has been about pleasing her boss and even at these latter stages she seem to have adopted 'what would Thatcher do?' as her model. Which is a bit of a problem for her since Thatcher, whatever you may think of her, had a firm set of beliefs and principles, which Truss has not demonstrated at all. I do not think Truss could actually work out what Thatcher would do for any new situation at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 11:24 AM

Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:02 PM

Smokescreen to some perhaps. Others might think that it comes under the heading of "other UK political topics".

I somehow doubt that either of the tory leader candicates will offer a cabinet place to the other.

Strange times we are living in. The next couple of years are not looking good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:05 PM

”Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.”

He’s a Tory. Whataboutery and nit-picking are all he’s got.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:14 PM

I have a quiet bet with myself that if Liz Truss gets to be PM, all the authors of "Britannia Unchained" who are MPs will get a position in the cabinet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:34 PM

Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.

'Whataboutism'
That works both ways.
Possibly the 'left' on here (the majority) are discussing the Conservative leadership election to avoid discussing the problems of the Labour Party.

As I said, the problems highlighted by the 'Morning Star' have been totally ignored.

Maybe there will be some comment about the call to have Boris on the final ballot for Conservative leader: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:54 PM

I really would not have had you down as an avid supporter of the "Morning Star", Nigel. I would have expected you to dismiss it as a reliable source out of hand. Well, we live and learn!

There are other analyses of the report which are more even handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 02:47 AM

should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:02 AM

Nigel, the Conservatives are the governing party by a long shot. Their leadership election directly affects the lives of millions. The Labour Party does have problems and you will find that I, along with others, have railed against the leadership and faction divisions on many occasions. However, until we reach the point where Labour are in a position to make a difference, the current leadership election does warrant more attention than the alleged past misdeeds of the opposition party. Nothing to do with whataboutism. Just common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:16 AM

The other thing is, I think you have the wrong idea about "what about". The tactic is used to divert attention from a major news item or serious blunder. What the opposition may have done 3 years ago hardly warrants the major or serious category. Your suggestion that we should be talking about it as much as current news is risible. It reminds me of a quote I saw the other day.

"Now we have the view of an expert in the field who has spent years studying the subject and, for the sake of balance, the ramblings of someone who read about it on Facebook."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:23 AM

"should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk"

Probably yes, in Argentina you will always find a permanent brick "asado" in a back garden, and BA often has temperatures in excess of 40C.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:28 AM

Dave,
i think it is very important, furthermore where someone has read about it does not matter.
the undermining of a leader and the diversion of funds is very important, it makes a mockery of democracy and it is one of the reasons i have left the labour party.
i will vote for labour, but i am not impressed with starmer, but he is better than truss or sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:40 AM

i've just rejoined the labour party after a couple of years of being (as ever} irritated by our timid and tory-lite leadership. i got a flyer for a talk by the founder of extinction rebellion in lancaster and realised i'd rather be at a labour branch meeting in cockermouth where i moved from a couple of years back. my new mp is cat smith - she's a hard worker and left the shadow cabinet as she is anti-anti-corbyn. greens may have more radical, sensible policies but.....well i guess i'm happier moaning about leaders/splitters in the labour party with committed friends and comrades. i've always been more red than green and am happy arguing for socialism or the environment in either party. sorry about all the waffling - I had a bit of a realisation that it's a social as well as a socialist thing and also largely a class thing. so i'm back in the labour party for the social life and where i feel comfortable. makes me sound like a tory, eh? i prefer beer and crisps to elderflower whatever and cake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:44 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
liz truss suggests tax cuts ,i suggest removing sanctions that are not working, which will bring down the cost of gas and fuel, and help to reduce inflation.
the whole situation is due to nato provocation, can you imagine, the usa response if russia and china formed a soviet china armaments alliance and put missiles on the canadian border or just across the water from alaska.
rember the bay of pigs this was caused by the wonderful kennedy, putting missiles into turkey, a similiar provocation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:55 AM

Please list instances where members of the current shadow cabinet or the leader of the opposition have abused their ministerial/prime ministerial powers. Please list instances of laws passed by the current opposition that have brought UK into disrepute.

it is amazing how many idiots are too stupid to realise that the tory party are running the government, not the labour party.

How many parties have did labour hold in Downing Street while others were not allowed to visit their dying loved ones during the pandemic? At the start of the pandemic how many time did a labour prime minister not bother to attend?

What is the name of the labour MP who signed the withdrawal agreement. What is the name of the labour minister/prime minister who is showing contempt for international law and treaties?

Who is the labour health minister who presided over 200,000 deaths form covid, and wasted billions on unsuitable PPE.

Who is the labour prime minister who promoted a sex offender to the role of deputy chief whip?

I could go on and on with this for hours, but I have better thing to do than continue responding to such ridiculous whataboutery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 05:06 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
Against what currency? Despite a recovery the Rouble value (against the pound or the dollar) is lower than it was on 29 June this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 07:24 AM

"i suggest removing sanctions that are not working, which will bring down the cost of gas and fuel, and help to reduce inflation."

You really are as bad as corbyn, you haven't a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 08:52 AM

could any tory tell me where the question 'What about the Corbyn years leading Labour?' appears on the agenda at every meeting? Is it before the 'This month's Dead Cat' or a sub-section of the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 09:32 AM

I sympathise with something like 48% of the people stuck at Dover.

It is amusing, in a way, the effort put into blaming this on the French, pretending it has nothing to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 10:18 AM

bonzo , truss seems to think that inflation is caused by rising energy prices, are you saying that this is wrong, if not tell us what is causing the rise in energy costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 11:25 AM

"tell us what is causing the rise in energy costs."

Simple - demand and supply!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 11:58 AM

the rise in energy costs caused by demand supply? well the supply of gas or lack of it coming from russia, as a result of sanctions, so logically sanctions have pushed up the price of gas for the uk,is it a co incidence the price of oil has gone up as well,according to the guardian
Why are fuel prices so high?

The average cost of petrol hit a record 191.53p a litre on Sunday, while diesel is 199.03p and, in some places, above £2 a litre. Fuel prices have risen this year as the cost of crude oil, used to produce petrol and diesel, has jumped.

The price of crude collapsed during the pandemic as travel restrictions punctured demand. That demand has since largely returned. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exacerbated the situation as various western countries shun Russian oil.
so bonzo it is not as simple as you try and make out, as usual you appear to be misinformed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:10 PM

from the same article
Will pump prices fall soon?

It is unlikely there will be a significant drop despite the rate of price growth slowing over the last week. JP Morgan has warned oil prices could surge 240% to $380 a barrel if Russia slashes production in response to western plans to cap energy prices. The bank said Russia could cut its oil production by as much as 5m barrels a day without causing excessive damage to its economy. That production cut would squeeze markets and push up prices. For drivers, that could spell further woes in the wallet."
it would appear that economic sanctions are not affecting Russia, they have found other markets and other countries who unlike the uk are not subservient to the USA, so it is not as simple as just supply and demand.
Russia is playing a part in all this too, Russia produces gas and oil Bonzo, did you knot know that in your ivory tower somewhere near Penge

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:11 PM

Sanctions on russia must never be removed whilst they are destroying Ukraine, whatever the cost to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:43 PM

Russia holds 1,688 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of proven gas reserves as of 2017, ranking 1st in the world and accounting for about 24% of the world's total natural gas reserves of 6,923 Tcf. Russia has proven reserves equivalent to 102.3 times its annual consumption.

In 2021, Russian crude and condensate output reached 10.5 million barrels per day (bpd), making up 14% of the world's total supply. Russia has oil and gas production facilities throughout the country, but the bulk of its fields are concentrated in western and eastern Siberia.

Bonzo you are happy to engage in an economic war, whatever the cost to the uk?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:56 PM

yet you do not condemn USA drone attacks on somalia iraq syria afghanistan all of which have occured since 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:58 PM

Saudi Arabia will want grain from Russia, stolen or not, so they are not going to help anyone but Russia. Sanction the world if you must but it will make things wrong in another direction. Our board members, leaders and bankers have an agenda that means they can not care what happens to Bonzo and friends.

We made money the heaven on Earth

We'll all cringe in strife
from the warlords who impinge
on the essence of life.
Then we will be skinned and
injected by a toxic syringe   
made by the fringe
elite who merely grinned
as they continue their binge.

We are trapped by a dilemma of our own making

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 01:09 PM

OK drop sanctions against russia, aid them to walk through Europe - shall we have russian tanks in Whitehall by Christmas????????????????????? Don't be so fucking stupid Sandman.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:43 PM

We currently have 2 russian cruise missile subs in the North Sea - lets drop sanctions right away Sandman you damned Commy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

Russia is no longer "commy" if you hadn't noticed, Bonzo. It is run by experienced capitalists trying to make billions before their bubble bursts. One thing we can agree on is that the sanctions must continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 01:50 PM

grain deals are happening, the people that run things take no notice of Bonzo orGnome
The United Nations has been working for over two months with NATO member Turkey, which has a maritime border with Ukraine and Russia in the Black Sea, to broker what UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres called a package deal to both resume Kyiv's exports and facilitate Russian grain and fertilizer shipments.
Bonzo and Gnome, so much for sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 02:51 PM

Don't be so insulting. If you can't post without making abusive ad hominem to other mudcat members just go away. Or if you really can't help yourself, then at least try posting something intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 03:14 PM

Grain exports help Ukraine and the rest of the world far more than they help Russia. Beside which they are a pittance compared to gas and oil exports.

Don't worry about the ad hominem, SPB. It's par for the course. At least it isn't threats this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:11 PM

Bonzo, do you think it is ok for the usa to send drones and kill innocent people in 3 countries thousands of miles from the usa border,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:51 PM

Whataboutery abounds!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:00 AM

a question related to uk political topics, USA has attacked 3 countries thousands of miles from its borders, killing innocent civilians, that is a fact. ,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:37 AM

Whataboutery or whataboutism is the tactic of responding to one issue by raising another. That is also a fact. Not many people use it as it is plain for all to see and rarely works nowadays but I have come across it twice in the last few days on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:39 AM

Dave , it is called getting a balanced perspective. looking at EVERY INVASION going on in the world, every nations foreign news is biased and is propganda that includes the US the uk Russia and China.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:09 AM

viewing an event in isolation is foolish , events occur as a reaction to some other happening.
Bonzo seems to think Russia wants to take over the uk. historically Russia had a soviet empire called the soviet union , it could not adminster it any more, it fell apart ,,like most empires it had its day it becamoe over bureacratic and unwieldy, why would they want an ailing economy like the uk or want to take over Europe.The Russian Rouble is high what sense is their in invading europe, they have other markets to sell their gas etc, what use is marching into europe and the uk. they are more likely to take a leaf out of Chinas economic strategy

NATO has to have a bogeyman,mean while a lot of money has been made[ ON BOTH SIDES] out of selling armaments
China however is very clever it is investing all over africa in infra structre, a much more intelligent policy than either the usa or russia. I do not think they are doing it for entirely philanthropic reasons

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:39 AM

I am reminded once again of the following

"Now we have an expert on the topic who has spent his life studying his subject and, for balance, we have an idiot who read about it on the Internet."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:46 AM

BTW "looking at EVERY INVASION going on in the world".

I must have missed something. Remind me of all the invasions that are currently happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:50 AM

Dave, calling somebody an idiot, is against the rules of mudcat, as is calling somebody fucking stupid and a commy, we are all entitled to different opinions, but you have yet to put forward a rational argument that discredits the facts or the line of argument that i have pursued.
when in a discussion a person has to resort to insults, it is an indication that they cannot discuss rationally the points under discussion
meanwhile
Between 2001 and 2018, China loaned approximately $126 billion to African countries. Between 2001 and 2018, China invested $41 billion in FDI.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 05:15 AM

I have no idea what your argument is even about, Dick. You seem to be arguing against something that someone has not said (straw man) by bringing up another topic (whataboutety). As far as I can gather, you are saying that Putin's invasion of Ukraine is justified because the US and UK have are invading other places. They are not currently involved in any invasions as far as I am aware. Even if they were, two wrongs still do not make a right and they have little to do with UK politics anyway. Which brings me on to Mudcat rules. Please feel free to point the moderation team at this thread. I am sure they will remove all offensive remarks and all posts that are not relevant to this topic.

Now, back to UK political topics. I am more than happy to agree or disagree with anything you post that is relevant to UK politics on this thread. Please let us know what you are railing against and why as I, for one, am at a complete loss as to where this is going. I shall no longer respond to anything outside the scope of the thread as it is likely to be removed and I cannot respond reasonably to any argument that has no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:09 AM

Am I allowed to fully agree with you Dave the Gnome??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:15 AM

If it warrants it, Bonzo, but I think we should keep it quiet :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:33 AM

The easy way is simply to ignore the off-topic nonsense. I recommend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:23 PM

there doesn't seem much on-topic at the moment in uk politics. are traffic queues a result of brexit? which of the 2 candidates can appear more rigorous in appealing to a tiny group of brain-addled tories on the hot topic of being nastier to asylum seekers? not much else happening really

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:51 PM

On the topic of the traffic queues at Dover, I’m finding it hilarious that many of those in the queues are whining about the hard-border with the EU which they actually voted for! Presumably they thought that ending free-movement would be a one-way thing? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 05:16 PM

So we blame the French for doing proper passport checks that you are up against at every other international border. We criticise them for not recruiting extra staff at passport control, at their expense of course, even though 'twas we who voted for brexit. The whole thing is bloody hilarious. I know I'm not being fair, but every time I see a vox-poppite in a massive queue at Dover, I feel like asking 'em if they voted for brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:59 PM

Mrs Steve asked me tonight which of the two Tory candidates I'd prefer. She was perplexed to hear that it's a question I simply can't, won't, don't want to answer. They are two cheeks of the same arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 12:23 PM

IMO the Tory leadership contest has been conducted in an undignified manner,,which reflects badly [thank god] on their party.
remarks, appear to have become nastier and more personal. Truss has condemned conservative economic policy of the last seven years.
Weeks of Truss and Sunak tearing lumps out of each other should bring nothing but joy for Labour
Polly Toynbee in the Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 01:18 PM

Many Tories, including senior figures, are criticising the toxicity of the leadership campaign tactics, including the personal attacks and character-assasinations.

Funny thing though, they didn't criticise the same kind of toxicity, personal attacks, and character-assassination tactics when they were aimed at Senior Labour Party officials during the last couple of General Elections - they were all for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 02:52 PM

Labour are well able to damage themselves. They need to get their own house in order if they are to have any hope in winning the next election. Just relying on votes from people who are fed up with the present government is not enough. They have to offer a viable alternative.

From The Guardian.

Labour must heed the Forde report’s advice to end infighting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 03:01 PM

Pass the popcorn please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

i agree, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 12:51 AM

I have never said that Putins invasion was justified, nor are USA drone attacks. The idea that Putin is going to march in to the UK asBonzo said is laughable.
EconOmic sanctions are not working and are affecting the poorest people in Europe and the UK, and are a contribution to inflation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 03:27 AM

meanwhile armament manufacturers have made money.
generally speaking after a war the economy of the war stricken country picks up, this is one of the very sad facts about wars and capitalism, governments find people expendable,
Bonzo,   Russia is a capitalist country as is the USA.
Economic sanctions are not appearing to be working, so what should happen next, why are they not working?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 03:58 AM

Well done, Dick, you have clarified your argument and I cannot disagree with any point but your last. However, as that is a world issue and not specifically UK politics I will not address it here.

Whether we agree with it or not, it is Mudcat policy to keep UK politics on one thread. Because of that it is important to keep that one thread on track. US and world politics can have many threads so please feel free to start another one about Russian sanctions or any other world issues thst you need to get off your chest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 06:54 AM

Full Fact analysis of last nights debate between the 'two cheeks' (Nice on Steve)

I did not watch it as we have only had the TV 2 years and I did not want to throw something at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 07:19 AM

It was interesting, Dave - the shouty, bully-boy, talk-over-everyone-else tactics of Fishy Rishi versus the somewhat wooden, no-idea-how-to-respond Dizzy Lizzie.

It didn’t really give me a clue as to which one would make the best (or, rather, ‘least-worst’) PM, but it was enough to confirm my already-held belief that I don’t want either of the buggers in No. 10.

It really is time for Labour to bury hatchets and pull together to consign these shabby bunch of Tory crooks to history - they will never have a better chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 08:18 AM

It didn’t really give me a clue as to which one would make the best (or, rather, ‘least-worst’) PM, ....

Even if it had, unless you are a member of the Conservative Party, you'll get what your given. Licence payers' money shouldn't be used to canvass less than 0.5% of the UK electorate who will be making the choice. That should come out of Party funds.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 08:42 AM

Completely agree about who should bear the cost, Doug. But who becomes PM affects everyone who lives in the UK, and we are all perfectly entitled to have an opinion as to which candidate would make the better choice, no matter whether we have a vote in the election or not.

One of the problems with our political and electoral system is that it has been moved more and more towards a ‘Presidential-style’ system where, at General Elections, people are increasingly voting based on their preferred party leader as much as, if not more than, the party itself. This, along with our archaic FPTP system, I believe is rapidly sending our political system down the toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 10:04 AM

It is has been reported today that the Metropolitan Police did not send the required questionaires to Johnson over his attendance at two Dowing Streets parties during lockdown.

This smacks of a cover up at the very highest levels of our Police force. One law for them another for us so it would seem.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 10:08 AM

I don't think it would have made much odds at this stage, Raggy. He was so covered in shit that he was pushed off his perch and to carry on piling up the manure would not have achieved much.

I do agree about a police cover up though and that should certainly reach the ears of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 12:22 PM

Can't agree with that Dave. If a law is broken it should be followed up and a prosecution should take place, even if that is merely the imposition of a fine.

Once again Johnson has got away with an offence, I don't if that same leniency would be applied to the public at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 01:55 PM

Fairy Nuff

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 02:09 PM

I thought Truss more likely to win than Sunak, but her reaction to this medical incident which has taken their debate off the air will do more her campaign than anything else. It looked a human response, and then as if she was going to try to help. People will like that.

Rishi may have as well, but as the camera was not on him, he will get no benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 04:29 PM

n the blue corner, Rishi Sunak – the former chancellor, warning of an economic national emergency, as though he’s forgotten that just weeks ago, he was running the economy.

And in the bluer corner, Liz Truss – recent graduate of the esteemed school of fantasy economics and leading Thatcher tribute act, promising billions in unfunded tax cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 22 - 04:29 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00199wz
leeds life in the bus lane
Rima Ahmed takes the bus into Leeds, meeting passengers, campaigners and history buffs to find out why it is 'the biggest city in Western Europe without a mass transit system'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 06:48 AM

Bearing in mind the stuff that’s going on on the UK Political scene ATM, I’m surprised this thread isn’t smokin’!

*160 thousand toffs and toff-wannabees electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us.

*The Tory Propaganda Machine trying to brainwash the public into believing it only takes one to tango where the Pay-Claim/T&Cs dispute between the RMT and rail-employers is concerned.

*The same Tory Propaganda Machine working hard to brainwash the hard-of-thinking into believing the lie that the enemy of ordinary working people is other ordinary working people.

*Labour sacking the Shadow Transport Minister for supporting the RMT strikers by attending a picket line.

…etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Hello-oo! Anybody out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 07:41 AM

*160 thousand toffs and toff-wannabees electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us.
a) "toffs, toff wannabees" and those who believe that a Conservative government will be better for the country, and the people, than a Labour government would.
b) "electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us". No, the General election decided which party will run the country. The current leadership election is on behalf of the Conservative party, not the general population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 10:00 AM

There is plenty happening, for certain, but as a consequence of the different approaches of the two prospective leaders, and since I am not someone who is entitled to a say in it, I don't see a lot of point in commenting when things are at a point crossroads between two very different paths.

I listen to a podcast by Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell which is very interesting. They are both of the opinion that Sunak is much further to the right than Truss, and said the next big battle ground in the Conservatives is likely to be Charter Cities that Sunak is quite keen on.

That is something worth keeping an eye on. The innocuous sounding 'Chart Cities Institute' promoting them is another one of these 55 Tufton Street groups that are generally more alt-right than just right wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 10:02 AM

"Charter Cities Institute". My usual typing randomness!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 01:10 PM

Around 160,000 people who are mostly white, mostly male, mostly wealthy and mostly elderly and mostly anti-trade union ARE going to choose the next prime minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 03:19 PM

Around 160,000 people who are mostly white, mostly male, mostly wealthy and mostly elderly and mostly anti-trade union ARE going to choose the next prime minister.

And quite rightly too.
The populace elected a Conservative government, and the Conservatives have a system for electing a leader.
If Labour were in government they would expect to be allowed to elect their own leader. Last time they did so (although not in government) they elected Keir Starmer. The time before they elected Jeremy Corbyn. Somewhat earlier the rank and file had no choice because Blair appointed Brown.
Yes, I know that in between Labour had Harman (acting) Milliband, and Harman (acting).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 05:51 PM

I don't think the rank and file had much say when Theresa May was chosen as leader, either,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 04:33 AM

"And quite rightly too.
The populace elected a Conservative government, and the Conservatives have a system for electing a leader.
If Labour were in government they would expect to be allowed to elect their own leader. Last time they did so (although not in government) they elected Keir Starmer. The time before they elected Jeremy Corbyn. Somewhat earlier the rank and file had no choice because Blair appointed Brown."

Absolutely

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 04:50 AM

I have to question the calibre of David Cameron who foolishly as a political ploy allowed a brexit refrendum, and the follwing conservative policy of forming a political strategy of allying with the brexit parties during the general election.
if i was to use the word unpatroitic[ in the sense steve shaw means] this political shensnigans was not for the good of the nation. the uk at the moment is in a state of feck up.
and all due in the first place to david cameron

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:20 AM

DMcG:
Quite right, the 'rank and file'/membership were not given a vote because one of the two short-listed stood down. And in my view Theresa May was not the person for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:28 AM

The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes], and the first past the post electoral system which relies upon a system where there are two main opposition parties, thus splitting the vote, the liberal party under this system are particularly dealt with unfairly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:48 AM

Well, hmm. "The populace elected a conservative government." Sorry, Nigel, but each member of that electorate took part (if they voted at all) in the election of an MP. I don't remember the ballot paper giving me the option of choosing a particular colour of government. It's amazing how you guys on the right always purport to know what's in voters' minds. "The people voted to take back control." Really? What if I said that "the people" voted to keep out foreigners, especially the ones without white skin? Who's going to say which of us is closer? Individual voters have their own agendas. It would be a good bet that some Tory party members will vote for Truss "because we need another woman," or for Sunak for the very opposite reason. Both terrible ways of making the decision, eh? But who's to know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:02 AM

DMcG:
Quite right, the 'rank and file'/membership were not given a vote because one of the two short-listed stood down. And in my view Theresa May was not the person for the job.

A bit off topic, in a way, but relevant to the current PM selection in another.

When you say Theresa May was not the right person for the job in your view, are you saying Andrea Leadsom was?   Because, if not, that speaks to a problem with the members just being the choice between two. I have likened the situation between a magician's forced card. What if the members at large didn't want either of these two, and would have preferred say Penny Mordaunt? "Those are the rules" seems a weak argument to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:26 AM

Very nice to see intelligent, considered debate here. It definitely beats “Lefties are a bunch of arrogant wankers” kind of stuff, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:28 AM

I appreciate your appreciation!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:34 AM

Bonzo, your comments only weaken your credibilty, to resort to name calling reflects a weakness , an inabilty to discuss in a rational manner

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 09:10 AM

"The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes], and the first past the post electoral system which relies upon a system where there are two main opposition parties, thus splitting the vote, the liberal party under this system are particularly dealt with unfairly."

Unless we end up with a coalition government, we nearly always end up with a government which has received less than 50% of the vote. Certainly not ideal but it is the 'British' way. Neither Labour or Conservatives are keen on changing that method of voting.

Gerrymandering? Are you being serious? Yes we have boundary changes. Are you saying that is wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 01:22 PM

The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes],

The latest (sixth) boundary review was not implemented.
The fifth review was, in 2010, based on a review of 2007. That would suggest that any 'gerrymandering' was the responsibility of the party at that time in power.

If the Conservative Party got in with 43.6% of the vote then that is an improvement on the previous (2005) government which got in with 35.2%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 01:27 PM

Boundary changes can be wrong if their purpose is to ensure a particular political party gets less representation, Rain Dog. That is gerrymandering. Yes, it can happen and is difficult to either prove or fight against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:25 PM

I do not care who is keen on it, and to argue something is ok because it is the British way, is indicative of the mess the country is in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:27 PM

iS IT OK to say the queues at Dover are ok? because its the british way and the british love waiting in a queue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:36 PM

"Bonzo, your comments only weaken your credibilty, to resort to name calling reflects a weakness , an inabilty to discuss in a rational manner"

I couldn't give a pikey's arse!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 02:42 AM

Are you going for the record of highest number of offensive posts deleted bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 03:42 AM

Are you going for the record of highest number of offensive posts deleted bonzo?

No, he's going for the record of the highest number of bites from people who resist making a reply.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 03:44 AM

....who can't resist making a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 04:52 AM

Good point, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 10:03 AM

Doug - BG :-D

FWIW though when such remarks are deleted the replies usually go with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 06:32 PM

I don't think deletions matter if someone is keeping their own tally - a bite is a bite.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 03:17 AM

Truss is attacking the civil service an also Nicola Sturgeon, she seems intent on demonstrating aggression

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 04:04 AM

At last, a Conservative politician makes a statement about matters Scottish which is entirely accurate and even truthful. In behaving in such an unprecedented manner, maybe she's just seeking attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 08:32 AM

She is demonstrating that she's best for the job of PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 08:52 AM

"She is demonstrating that she's best for the job of PM."

Ye Gods she can't even pronounce Taoiseach. She is supposed to be a leading politician and should KNOW these things.


Tea Sock

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 09:31 AM

You don't prove that you'll be a good prime minister by talking. We had a headmaster once who was an absolutely brilliant speaker, a quick thinker, very eloquent (it's how he got the job). He was the worst imaginable head, weak, arbitrary, flip-flopping, easily bullied by his senior staff, managed to get us duffed up by Ofsted...

Clever talk don't butter no parsnips, Bonzo. 'Tis by her fruits shalt thou knowest her (as for me personally, she can keep her fruits to herself).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 09:48 AM

Clever?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 10:42 AM

Er, quite...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 11:12 AM

Tea-shock.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 11:27 AM

NOT "quite" in anything like the American usage.

It will be interesting to consider how a mature politician might respond to the rudeness of someone holding high political office in another country. Eamonn de Valera's response to Churchill's characteristic growling after the end of the 1939-45 War, at least in Europe, has been described as "magisterial". The Long Fellow was An Taoiseach at the time, and would be "Chief" for far longer than Sir Winston.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 12:57 PM

Bonzo, How is she going to improve the way Animals are treated, or are you going to tell me, that is not her brief, That her brief is to look after very rich humans, come on answer, and none of your weasel words or your doggerel, and spare us your verbal dog shit and insults. tell us how truss the financial wizard is going to make ordinary peoples lives better, when she fecks the economy up
boris will try to make a come back

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 03:39 PM

Read for yourself, I'm off to see the England girls thrash the krauts again!!

By the way, Liz Truss has announced she will scrap diversity and inclusion jobs in Whitehall, making sure civil service officials actually start to focus on delivery - excellent news!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 22 - 08:04 AM

Bonzo this reminds me of Mussolini, and how did he end?
hanging upside down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 04:57 PM

I'm please to see that good progress is being made with HS2.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 04:41 AM

he number of billionaires in the UK nearly doubled between 2010 and 2019 from 29 to 54. Over the following 2 years it has more than tripled to 177. Now the Bank of England has the audacity to tell wage earners, pensioners and benefit recipients to suffer the consequences of what is likely to be the longest ever recession, escalating escalation, and rising interests rates in order to protect the wealthy from even longer term impacts. Also note that the number of millionaires has gone up over the last 11 years from 506,000 to 2,490,952.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 05:46 AM

I'm guessing that your point is not that millionaires/billionaires are not keeping it all to themselves, and that there is still something to be gained from being aspirational.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 07:27 AM

I would be interested to see how you envisage the UK GDP being increased 24,000 times over so that the entire UK population could fulfill their aspirations to be billionaires.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 22 - 06:39 PM

I would be interested to see how you envisage the UK GDP being increased 24,000 times over so that the entire UK population could fulfill their aspirations to be billionaires.
That is not what I said, So I will ignore calls to explain something which makes no sense.
Maybe you would wish to explain your own non-sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 03:41 AM

You are the one who tried to justify exponential increase in wealth in the face of a crisis where by this winter millions of working people, people on STATE pensions, people with disabilities or long-term limiting conditions, people who are in full time employments but still relay on UC to pay their rent and childcare, are unable to find work etc. are likely to have to make choices of whether to heat there homes or feed their families, be able to run a freezer or rely on expensive takeaways, whether to wash in hot or cold water, etc as being 'aspirational.

How you can consider aspiring to continue to accumulate more wealth on top of more than one person could possibly spend many lifetime over is acceptable goes beyond the thinking of any reasonable person.

It is typical tory mindset that poverty is caused by lack of aspiration at a time where wealth is being accumulated at the costs of more and more extreme poverty. Johnson wanted UK to be a third country... we are rapidly descending into becoming like a third word country. The only reason we don't have favelas in the UK is the NIMBYs would not tolerate them.

Sure it would be great if the entire UK population could aspire to be millionaires or billionaires, but I do not see how this could be sustained without hyperinflation. Also to achieve these noble suspirations GDP would have to increase to accommodate it as 68 million billionaires would mean that our GDP would be 68 million billion otherwise their wouldn't be 68 million billionaires, and that is 24,000 times the current UK GDP. Not a flight of fancy - just simple arithmetic.

Anyway, looking forward to your usual picking up on some pedantic issue and avoiding the substantive issue, let me guess - hot vs cold water?????

BY the way, and you may prefer to focus on this point instead - fuel poverty is defined as more than 10% of household income being spent on gas/electricity. This winter it is set to reach 37% of the State Pension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 03:55 AM

a million people spends a pound quicker than one person spends a million, from the point of view of the consumer society, it is necessary for people to have money to spend or consume, it is not an efficient way to run the consumer society, if people do not have money to consume.However .
I agree with SPB

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:30 AM

The wealthy get what they want already, so tax cuts won't get them spending more. The poor can be given tax cuts 'til they come out of their ears, but every penny will be used to pay their energy bills. If it takes Ken Clarke of all people to say that he doesn't need any more bloody handouts or tax cuts, it shows how the Tories don't understand targeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 04:46 PM

The tax cuts will pay a small proportion of the energy bill increases. Increasing state pension to 50% of average wage, or to the average defined benefit pension would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 05:52 PM

"BY the way, and you may prefer to focus on this point instead - fuel poverty is defined as more than 10% of household income being spent on gas/electricity. This winter it is set to reach 37% of the State Pension."

I work 4 days a week at 75, other pensioners should do the same if they need more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 06:50 PM

Well, Bonzo, I'm a well-educated chap, well retired, ex-teacher and all that. I'm 71 and clicking my heels, with a bloody bad back. So tell me how I can begin to make a living...
(I don't need to, actually, but do tell...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Aug 22 - 07:22 PM

So, Bonzo, are you going to put your money where your mouth is? How many over 75s will you be giving £36,000 a year jobs to - after tax they would still technically be in fuel poverty. or are you expecting them to do back-breaking work in the fields of standing on their feet for 7 hours a day in amazon warehouses? They paid for your school education - and if you went into further education in the days before student loans, paid your tuition fees. So now if you are saying people who worked hard for 55 years or more should carry on working if they don't want to die of hypothermia?   Nice chap, aren't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 22 - 02:48 AM

Just a typical Tory, SPB. Not a care for anyone but themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 22 - 03:53 AM

Bonzo reminds me of Tebbitt, not all other pensioners can get on their bike and show rich people how to legally avoid paying tax,
of course if there were lots of them doing bonzos job, supply and demand might affect bonzo, he would have to be competitive and work harder more hours for less money,, a bit like william brown of the song

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 22 - 03:55 AM

bonzo does not appear to understand capitalist economics, all thos pensioners working 4 days a week doing his job could mean only one day work a week for bonzo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 22 - 12:13 PM

Cutting VAT tax on fuel, A suggestion from a labour spokesperson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 22 - 06:52 PM

"Cutting VAT tax on fuel"?
Is that on 'energy' Gas & electric? Or just on motor fuel (which will only really help those who can afford to run their own vehicles)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Aug 22 - 03:59 AM

Interesting "Daily Mail" lead article (for a change!), as shown on the BBC review of front pages of the papers:


Police checks on foreign nationals from 44 countries have been scrapped, the Daily Mail reports in its lead story. Tens of thousands of people, including those from Russia, China and Iran, no longer have to give their details to the police when moving to the UK, after the government "abruptly" scrapped the checks at the end of last week "with no public announcement", the paper says.


I suppose taking control of your borders' does include deciding not to check people, though that may not be what Leave voters expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Aug 22 - 04:42 AM

"But a Home Office spokesman said last night: ‘These anonymous claims are wrong and misguided.

‘This scheme dates back to the First World War and is no longer effective because data provided to the police is already collected by the Home Office when individuals apply to enter the UK.

‘The police agree with government and recommended that the scheme should be abolished so that officers can focus on policing and solving crimes. 

'It is not used by the police to monitor individuals and to claim otherwise is wrong.’"

Daily Mail - A lot of our readers will not like this

I agree that a lot of their readers will not be happy about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Aug 22 - 10:37 AM

Well, wha’d’ya know? The Daily Fail appears to have decided to divert its venom away from brown- and black-skinned people risking their lives fleeing rape, torture, and murder in war-zones, and towards the RAF’s Aerobatics Display Team.

More diversion tactics methinks, trying to draw their readers’ attention away from the failings of the government during this time of astronomical rises in energy and fuel costs, deliberate provocation of Trade Unions, and spiralling inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 22 - 12:25 PM

I saw a post by one of my favourite authors today. It is an old post from 2015 but still apt for the Daily Heil

"I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase “In these days of political correctness…” talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, “That’s not actually anything to do with ‘political correctness’. That’s just treating other people with respect.”

Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could with “treating other people with respect”, and it made me smile.

You should try it. It’s peculiarly enlightening.

I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking “Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Aug 22 - 04:24 PM

So you think that because someone with non-white skin carried out an attack on an author it is justification for white racist s**m to ridicule other people on the basis of their skin colour, first langauge, faith and culture?

Ok then, here's a joke. Did you hear about the racist accountants from one.

Q. How many accountants from Croydon does it take to change a light bulb? A. They wouldn't do something that they consider so menial themselves, and would get someone they consider inferior to themselves to do it whole taking the piss out of their cultural differences.

If that doesn't explain to you why your response to DtG is racist, nothing will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 22 - 07:38 PM

So Starmer spent months coming up with his plan for solving the looming fuel poverty crisis. Freeze the price cap. A Labour leader specifying measures that give money to the rich that they don't need. It's pathetic, and the tabloids (once again) must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 22 - 02:25 AM

‘The Upward Flow of Wealth’ - the foundation on which Capitalism is built. ‘Twas ever thus, and ever will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 22 - 02:54 AM

Ah Dave, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the need for respect and kindness, consideration and tolerance, rather than that awful concept of 'political correctness'. It isn't 'political' at all to consider other people's feelings. It's a basic character trait which we should all try to cultivate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Aug 22 - 08:59 AM

Whenever I hear the phrase under discussion, it always reminds me of a line on The Now Show, when Suggs had delivered a lecture or something on feminism:

    It's Madness gone politically correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Aug 22 - 08:30 AM

"all thos pensioners working 4 days a week doing his job could mean only one day work a week for bonzo"

They wouldn't know where to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Aug 22 - 04:44 PM

That's a bit disingenuous projecting the intellect and ability of pensioners down to your level.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 11:09 AM

Just listening to James O'Brien and he made very valid comments on Liz Truss who seems likely to be our next Prime Minister

In the space of 12 hours she announced regional pay for civil servants, changed her mind about it and then denied it ever happened. O'Brien's summary was that she was 'useless, cowardly and dishonest'. It is quite true. The policy is the product of ineptitude and populism to Daily Heil readers. To then not have the courage to back up her statement is nothing but cowardly. Then to deny it ever happened is in the realms of Johnsonesque dishonesty. Are we just getting a female Bozo? He went on to make a much more far reaching comment - it seems it no longer matters. The Daily Heil is proclaiming that Johnsons reign did not end in failure. It is supporting Truss and cares not that she is verifiably useless. Do we, the people of the UK, really care so little that we let our politicians get away with this sort of skulduggery? How have we got to demonising an honest, if somewhat inept, politician like Corbyn while actively supporting the liars, cheats and rogues that are currently running this shitshow?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 11:37 AM

The world is on fire and it's too late to fix it. We can't grow food because it never rains. Inflation is turning us into a third-world country (and God knows what will happen to current third world countries...). Half of us will freeze close to death this coming winter. The food banks are running out of food. We can't get to see a doctor or dentist any more, and whatever you do don't come to need an A&E department, let alone an ambulance. Nobody's been running the country for weeks.



But never mind. Grant Shapps wants to put number plates on pushbikes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 12:09 PM

Number plates on bikes eh ...................... I might find myself in support of this. The number of times I been forced off the pavement or had to brake suddenly in my car by cyclists who claim everything is MY fault is growing day by day. Countless times I have seen them go through red lights, ride the wrong way up one way streets, be downright offensive to other roads users, could come to an end if we could report the buggers!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 12:45 PM

OK, so let's put number plates on all dogs so that we can report 'em when they shit or when they piss up lamp posts.

In other words, it ain't going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 12:59 PM

While riding my bike I have been abused once by a driver (white van man), once by a pedestrian while on the canal towpath and for no apparent reason. And 3 times by other cyclists! I can only conclude that cyclists are 3 times more likely to be arseholes :-D

Of course abuse does not kill you and the amount of times I have been almost wiped out by idiot drivers far exceeds any of those but I guess this has nowt to do with UK politics. Unless do not Truss or Sunak you than me try to run me over and then deny it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 01:15 PM

...and it's still just a distraction tactic, Raggy. Populist too. You raise valid points about idiot cyclists but just ask yourself how many people have been killed by cyclists compared to those killed by motorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 02:05 PM

Add to that licencing e scooters and/or local authority officers getting off their backsides and trimming back overgrown hedges so that pedestrians can see oncoming scooter riders on the pavement. Came close to being run down by one today. Or at least the council or the department of transport could put up a warning sign by the edge of the hedge warning pedestrians of oncoming scooter riders illegally using the pavement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 02:36 PM

The only country in the world currently requiring number plates on cycles is North Korea. Maybe that gives us an indication of the direction of this government!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 03:12 PM

A suggestion on how to conserve water in the future. No planning permission is given unless there are rainwater tanks built at the top of a building to collect water to be used to help flush toilets.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 22 - 05:20 PM

It may be more advantageous to build collection tanks at the bottom of buildings to collect rainwater from the drainpipes .............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 02:48 AM

ok ,but collection oand storage of rainwater plus building of reservoirs needs to be given priority.
Raggytash here in rural ireland i see a number old farm houses with tanks built on sides of walls to collect rainwater

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 03:07 AM

Water should never be in short supply as it makes up 80% of the earth's surface and is never actually used up. Just recycled. It is of course mainly in the wrong state and often in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am sure science will find the right solution but while politicians have control over it we are all doomed!

On reflection, money is the same. There is plenty of it, just in the wrong hands :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 03:12 AM

Using KEYNSIAN ECONOMICS , workers employed on infra structure would boost the economy, infrastructure could include fitting tanks to all council owned properties, to save on toilet flushing and wastage reusing of grey water, and building of reservoirs

The last major public water supply reservoir to be constructed in the UK for water supply purposes was Carsington in 1991, and although a number of water supply reservoirs have been proposed since the 1960's very few have made it to completion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 03:56 AM

You could also stimulate economic growth with a fairer distribution of wealth but sadly that isn't going to happen either

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 04:04 AM

It would certainly make sense to require all new houses to have a dual water supply - fresh for drinking and grey for most other purposes. Some countries run a dual water supply system for this reason, but it would be impractical to fit that to old houses. New houses, though, that's perfectly possible. Collected rainwater, recycled water from showers etc, why not?

I have referred to an arena I saw in Delos, I believe, built by the Ancient Greeks. While it looked at first sight like any other stone-built arena there were slight slopes on the seats, a slight incline on the rows of seats and so on, so that when it did rain it was a giant funnel, routing all the water to underground storage.

When people actually perceive water as important, much can be done. But the most detrimental is to set up companies whose main remit is deliver profits to shareholders where water is just the medium to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 04:05 AM

The last major public water supply reservoir to be constructed in the UK for water supply purposes was Carsington in 1991, and although a number of water supply reservoirs have been proposed since the 1960's very few have made it to completion.

I think a lot of people would be happy for new reservoirs to be built, providing it's someone else's house that gets submerged and not theirs.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 22 - 04:36 AM

an intersting programme yesterday on radio 4
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001b45sThe Briefing Room
Fighting drought
Released On: 18 Aug 2022
Available for over a year

Despite recent heavy rainfall, much of England is experiencing drought conditions. Both rivers and reservoirs are running low, and the water companies have told millions to stop using their hosepipes.

Scientists warn that the current difficulties are only a glimpse of the much tougher challenges the UK will face in the future because of climate change. They estimate that there's a one-in-four chance of a drought which is so severe that drinking water has to be restricted.

Joining David Aaronovitch in The Briefing Room are:
Sir John Armitt, Chairman of the UK's National Infrastructure Commission
Dr Heather Smith, Senior Lecturer in Water Governance at Cranfield University
Jean Spencer, Director of The Water Industry Forum
Sir Dieter Helm, Professor of Economic Policy at Oxford University

Producers: Bob Howard, Kirsteen Knight and Simon Watts. Editor: Richard Vadon. Studio Manager: Graham Puddifoot. Production co-ordinators: Siobhan Reed & Helena Warwick-Cross


Doug CHADWICK, Building new reservoirs is one of several options, another option is saline treatment plants. and repairing infrastructure IT BECOMES A QUESTION OF NATIONAL INTERST over personal.
Nationalistaion of water companies is another option.
All the time the water companies are privately owned, they have to be profitable, that means only a certain amount of money can be spent on repairing infra structure, or and people have to pay more in charges. This is at a time when inflation is rising, increasing water charges would result in a stagnation of the economy, as peoples spending power is reduced, so imo better to fix leaks and improve water infrastructure, and try keynsian econmics to boost the economy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 22 - 04:47 AM

Will Genomics boost the British economy in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 22 Aug 22 - 07:06 AM

The party in alleged power in the UK has now definitively shown it suffers from the Dunning-Kruger syndrome:

Voters in the UK Cast Ballots Online, in Test for Internet Voting

How will the vote counters check that:
* Nobody is standing behind the voter, telling them to vote?
* The vote as received is the vote as cast?
* Nobody has compromised the counting machines?
* The vote tallying machines are honest?
* The voters' home machines haven't been compromised?
.... and that's just for starters.

I've linked to the RISKS Digest article, rather than the WSJ article it quotes (and links to), for the pertinent comment added at the end of the quote by the RISKS moderator.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 22 Aug 22 - 08:38 AM

Followup, from the same edition of RISKS:

'Hackers Against Conspiracies': Cybersleuths Take Aim at Election Disinformation

.... and that's just for official voting machines: consider how much more mischief would be possible with voters' home systems (which will be much less well defended) downloading voting software from Turing-knows-where.

As ever, hard copy is the least-worst voting mechanism. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something, or has just been sold something at great cost (garbage in, Gospel out). I'd better stop there bef!po9iujk,m nnlkj ARGH NO NO NO 'kplkuyhjnm;olik;l[EOF]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 22 - 09:45 AM

Given the situation with sewage pollution of the UK beaches, people might want to read the debate on the Environment bill in Hansard, particularly with the arguments why the Government rejected the Lord's amendment to the bill (amendment 45) which would have imposed stricter demands on the water companies to address the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Aug 22 - 10:10 AM

I wonder, have any of them admitted that the real reason for rejecting the Lord's amendment is that they wish to maximise the dividends they receive on their shareholdings in the water companies?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 04:20 AM

i wonder what has happened to punk folk rocker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 08:30 AM

"I wonder, have any of them admitted that the real reason for rejecting the Lord's amendment is that they wish to maximise the dividends they receive on their shareholdings in the water companies?"

One needs to receive at least dividends of £2,000 which is tax free!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 10:31 AM

your point being...what, precisely?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 02:32 PM

Can't you read!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 22 - 03:20 PM

I dont believe you are an accountant at all, prove that you are an accountant what is your name and who do you work for

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 22 - 06:57 AM

BBC reports Europe's energy costs will set record highs for the next 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 22 - 07:17 AM

Ask him if he sings the blues. If he says yes, he can't be an accountant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 07:14 AM

We have not quoted Marina Hyde, for a long time. Here's a gem from today's article.


The UK needs a titanic figure; it feels like it’s getting a Titanic one. Truss is the relentlessly perky crew member trying to disguise the rush for the lifeboats as proof the cruise firm’s shore excursions are extremely popular.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 07:19 AM

She's a gem of a commentator, that's for sure. May the good Lord preserve forever Marina and John Crace (who my sister once met at a conference - she told me that he's a lovely man).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 09:33 AM

I agree with you about John Crace and not just because he is a Spurs supporter.

+

The Electoral Commission 2021 accounts makes for interesting reading. I was surprised by the amount of income that Labour have.

Electoral Commission - 2021 Party Accounts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 03:15 PM

Re Marina Hyde's comment: Nail Head, this is Hammer Head; Hammer, meet Nail. I'm increasingly of the opinion that Trussed ("because I'm worthless") is only ahead because she's de Pfeffel's anointed successor, and that he's only anointing her because he doesn't want to go down in history as the worst English PM of all time.

.... And oh how I wish I'd perverted that scent tag-line earlier, while it still had a chance to change at least one mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 06:02 AM

I have just been listening to Rory Stewart's The long history of argument. I find it hard to imagine Johnson, Truss or Sunak being able to do something so reasoned, wide ranging and erudite.

Once again, I am reminded that the whole of the Conservative party, and hence the country, could be in a very different place if he had won instead of Johnson. Sure, I won't agree with him on everything, and he would have had to find a way of handling the pandemic and the cost of living crisis as well, which could blow him off course. But I am convinced he would have tried to work in the country's best interest, not just his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 06:23 AM

I once saw the definition of a baby as "a gastrointestinal tract with a loud noise one end and no sense of responsibility at the other". With a politician, how can you tell which end is which?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 07:32 AM

Aha! This is very funny. It would be even funnier if it wasn’t so horribly true…Honest Government Ad…

No apologies for the bad language - those Tory Twats are enough to make the Pope swear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 10:26 AM

And how would the Labour party have handled the cost of living crisis, I am yet to see a viable solution!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 12:23 PM

”And how would the Labour party have handled the cost of living crisis, I am yet to see a viable solution!!!”

Whataboutery and deflection - the last refuges of a supporter of the selfish, greedy, and totally clueless Tories!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 01:15 PM

You don't have any answers do you, go on admit it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 01:43 PM

More deflection by a clueless Tory supporter. The Tories got us in to this mess, it’s they who need to get us out of it - their responsibility, nobody else’s.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 02:00 PM

Well we have 177 billionaires in the UK, probably including multi-billionaires, so reducing their wealth to the last million or two wouldn't see them starve. If, say, £10,000/week is not enough to live on, then minimum wage, basic pension and welfare safety nets are due for an urgent uplift.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 03:54 PM

Lefty drivel once again, in fact it's never ending!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 22 - 04:45 PM

Righty Whataboutery and deflection once again, in fact it’s never ending!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last refuge of the clueless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 22 - 07:56 AM

bonzo prove that you are an accountant, you will be telling us that you are a Conservative MP next, Or are you liz Truss

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Aug 22 - 09:25 AM

> you will be telling us that you are a Conservative MP next, Or are
> you liz Truss

Is that an either/or question? or have you been listening to Dead Ringers again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 22 - 09:36 AM

So, simple question - why is it impossible for a billionaire to survive on £10,000 but£500 mote than enough for a student nurse. Do you consider them an inferior species to those with more wealth than they wpould ever need several lifetimes over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 02:28 AM

how will vat tax cuts help poor people with their bills and energy costs, and how much will it cost to implement , perhaps bonzo 3 legs might answer for once

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 03:24 AM

People on low income could take out massive loans and buy a merc or a range-rover, and the saving on the VAT would then be more than enough to deal with the cost of living crisis for a few months. The only problem might be there would be so much toxic sub-prime lending the banking system would collapse within a year, but hey, think of the lovely banker bonuses now they are no longer capped.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 05:37 AM

Sharon Graham, the general secretary of Unite, has told the Labour Party to get a spine, which is a euphemism for grow a pair. Too bloody right. In just over two years' time we face the prospect of Trump in the White House and Johnson in Number Ten. Both countries are sleepwalking into this nightmare and what they have in common is a complete absence of effective opposition. This Labour leader is a disaster. His telling his ministers not to join workers on picket lines will come back to bite him bigtime. He thinks he can shout unrealistic "we have a plan" plans from the sidelines, shouts that are either laughable, ignorable or both. His effort to sideline the left is an automatic party-splitter and election-loser. No bullets are being bitten.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 10:07 AM

Johnson back in No 10 - an excellent thought!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 06:23 AM

enjoy your night, mate...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 09:33 AM

There are VAT savings to be made by a property owner!

When a builder converts, for example, an office into flats, his services will be subject to 5% VAT. This reduced rate of VAT also extends to any materials he provides as part of his work.

The professional fees charged by architects and surveyors will always be charged at 20% VAT.

However, if the 5% VAT rate applies to the building work, some VAT planning could be undertaken.

The professionals could provide their services to the builder. If he is VAT registered, he can recover the 20% VAT input tax.

If the builder’s contract with the property owner is for a ‘design and build’ service, the builder will charge 5% VAT on his entire fee, including the materials and the professional fees. This will produce a huge VAT saving for the property developer.

Architectural or design services, supplied as part of a ‘design and build’ residential conversion contract can be treated as part of the 5% VAT rated supply of construction services.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 12:23 PM

Aah Bonzo, are you lonely, do you need someone to talk to. There's always the Samaritans and I've always liked the Salvation Army. I'm sure they could help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 01:10 PM

For all the talk about cutting red tape from recent Tory Governments, both Tory & Labour seem reluctant to do anything about cutting tax regulations. The tax regulations are well overdue for reform and simplification.

I will not be holding my breath though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 02:30 PM

Talk is all it is, Rain Dog. There's a good article on p20 of last week's New European: "The phoney war on red tape", by Jonty Bloom. He points out, amongst other things:

One person's red tape is another's important guideline, protection, commonsense rule or level playing field creator.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 02:28 AM

Despite rumours to the contrary, neither the EU, nor the UK, nor any of the countries making up the EU, nor (most) other countries make up regulations for the fun of it. They are always about balancing interests of the various parties. For example some of the earliest food regulations in the US were about stopping businesses adulterating flour.

There is only one potential set of regulations that it might be in the interests of both UK citizens and UK businesses to scrap, and they are ones put in place to protect EU special interests. One talked about at the time of the referendum was, if I remember rightly, regulations about competing with olive oil producers in Greece. Scrapping any other type of regulation is very likely to be against the interests of UK citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 06:34 AM

Surely it would be a good thing for leave voters to see an end to EU regional protection so that cheap produce can be flown into the UK from anywhere in the world and legitimately label itself as stilton, cornish pasty, Islay malt, etc etc and force UK manufacturers out of business so that corporates can add a few million more onto their balance sheets.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 06:38 AM

”…so that corporates can add a few million more onto their balance sheets”

…not to mention a few million more on to their shareholders’ dividends. Which, to Tory BrexShitters, was the whole point of BrexShit, n’est-ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 07:07 AM

No we we are outside the EU the protected status of things like Stilton no longer applies in law. But I suspect the EU is happy to maintain because we are respecting their protected origin goods. If we took action to say we would not repect thise I think we would suffer badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 08:05 AM

Good luck with Liz. She seems easily manipulated to me but a bit less whacky than Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 08:27 AM

I wouldn't trust her to run a tea stall never mind the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 08:51 AM

I am more than pleased to welcome Liz Truss as Prime Minster. I do not think she will suffer labour fools gladly!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 08:58 AM

She's as dull as ditchwater, as thick as p*igsh*it and she's incapable of stringing an English-language sentence together. She's more than once called British workers bone idle, yet seems unable to see that Boris Johnson is bone idle. Which he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 01:22 PM

"Good luck with Liz. She seems easily manipulated to me but a bit less whacky than Boris."

Easily manipulated? Who do you think is doing the manipulation?

I see Priti Patel has resigned. I take it that she and Liz don't get on. It will be interesting to see who accepts that poisoned chalice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 01:39 PM

She resigned because she knew she was going to be sacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 06:39 PM

Nadine Dorries resigning as well. Not sure what to make of that.

Nadine Dorries joins Patel in quitting cabinet after Truss named next PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 07:33 PM

Johnson has promised to make her a peer. Job for life. I wish we could make her dis-a-peer...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 08:34 PM

And again, from Spike Milligan:

Cheer up, dear listerners,
Old England isn't finished yet. . .

It's finished.. . .

CLUNK

. . .

NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Sep 22 - 05:12 AM

I am sure trusspot will suffer self serving corrupt tory little proverbials though.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 06:59 AM

A nice piece from Attila the Stockbroker on FarceBook today…

”ONE LETTER

A General Ejection.
Yes, that’s right - with a J.
Takes more than an election
To make mindsets go away.
No more talk of ‘our betters’
Of ‘they were born to rule’
My grandmother’s great mantra -
The servile Tory fool.

I’ve had it with the serfers.
Yes, that’s right - with an E.
The cap doffers and flaggers
Will never speak for me.
So many of my age group
Once rocked, now know their role.
Just sad, complacent climbers
Up Thatcher’s greasy pole.

We need a revelation.
Yes, that’s right - with an A.
A simple realisation:
There is a better way.
The evidence around me
Points to a simple truth:
Their elders have betrayed them.
It will come from the youth.”

Fingers crossed…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 07:22 AM

I seem to recall that Brexiteers told us that we could forge Trade deals across the Globe after we left Europe, that we would be unbound and unfettered by their red tape and stand alone as a great trading nation.

So how is it after 6 years we still do not have a post brexit deal with the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 07:31 AM

Labour need to start getting their arse in gear then. They cannot just rely on getting votes from those who are fed up with the 'current lot', even though that tends to be the British way, whichever party is the 'current lot'.

Not sure how well organised they are in Kent. There is only one Labour MP in the county and relations between her and both the local and national organisation are not the best.

Here in Dover and Deal there appears to be a dispute between the local and regional offices regarding the new candidate. He was chosen by a majority of 2 votes. 11 seniors members of the local party have submitted a complaint about the selection process, claiming it was not fair. Not sure what the situation is now.

I have started watching the repeats of Our Friends in the North on BBC4. Episodes 4, 5 & 6 are on tonight. I am also in the process of reading Private Eye:The 60 Year Book. It reminds me of all the scandals over the years, some of which I remember and some I don't. It does make you think if it is worth voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 07:53 AM

"So how is it after 6 years we still do not have a post brexit deal with the USA."

We officially left on 1.1.21 and were then able to negotiate deals with other countries. We will have to wait and see how those deals work out, providing we have deals of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 08:09 AM

”Labour need to start getting their arse in gear then.”

They do indeed, and a very good start would be if the various factions stopped kicking each other in the balls, put their ideological dogmas aside, and started working in harmony to serve those who need a Labour government the most - the vulnerable, the poor, the ordinary working people.

Ideology and dogma don’t win elections and, if the party doesn’t win elections, those ideologies and dogmas are absolutely worthless to the people the LP is supposed to represent. Time they got their heads round that simple fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 08:26 AM

But whose harmony should they sing along with, John?

Tory light or those who actually want to help the people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 08:51 AM

Don't know about you Raindog, but I tend to plan ahead. If my contract for my phone or my internet or my gas and electric (for example) is due to expire in the coming months I have already made arrangements to either extend the contract or change to a new suppplier long before the contract expires.

I would not wait until after that date to start negoiating a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 10:34 AM

It’s up to them, Dave, not my problem, they’re supposed to be the clever ones. But they need to work out how to get voters on-side - that’s what wins elections. SFA to do with membership numbers, or people arguing about who’s the ‘best’ Socialist, everything to do with Joe and Joan Public liking what you’re telling them and, more importantly, believing it.

Just my humble, non-member’s opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 12:41 PM

There is a podcast called "The Rest is Politics" by Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart which I find well worth listening to. The latest edition that I listened to today was an interview with Mark Drakeford who is First Minister of Wales and leader of the Welsh Labour Party. I thought he spoke a great deal of sense about his experiences of working with other parties in Wales. To me, that is also relevant to the tribalism on the various branches of the English Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 12:58 PM

That sounds remarkably like populism, John, and that is what got us into this mess in the first place! Hopefully we will eventually get a Labour party that people will realise is right for the country and not just for them. If the Daily Heil allow it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 01:32 AM

Here in the Land of Oz we have The Daily Rupert, The Sydney Rupert, The Melbourne Rupert, The Brisbane Rupert & The National Rupert

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 05:25 AM

Liz Truss is not listening to the Bank of England, and she and the Bank seem to be working against each other. Liz Truss is not listening to the IFS, which is warning that excessive and expensive borrowing and tax cuts will far from guarantee economic growth. Liz Truss is not listening to the big noises who used to work for Cuadrilla, who are saying loud and clear that fracking in the UK is not only not an answer to anything but is actually non-viable. It seems that charging on without listening is her means of asserting herself as a Strong Leader in the eyes of the public. Thatcher did that par excellence, and Starmer's bending with the wind and "listening to the people" is looking pusillanimous in the extreme. These bastard ideologues know exactly what they're doing, don't they?

Along with her new energy price cap and the tax cuts, both of which are designed to benefit mainly the better off, and as with lifting the cap on bankers' bonuses, we can expect an attack on Universal Credit claimants tomorrow. Well they don't vote Tory anyway. And Truss's boozy mate Coffey is talking about scrapping the sugary drinks levy and the anti-obesity drive (of all the people who should be doing that!), as well as telling GPs, without telling them how to do it, that they must offer appointments to all their patients within two weeks. Dunno about round your way but it's five to six weeks round here. Maybe we'll all have to take our strokes and cancer scares to the nearest Boots from now on. Tomorrow we have to hear Kwasi with his mini-budget. I should think that all sentient beings, by the end of tomorrow, will conclude that Mrs Mopp would make a better chancellor. Unfortunately, when it comes to politics there appears to be a severe lack of said sentient beings on the electoral registers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 06:16 AM

"Liz Truss is not listening to the IFS."

Other economists are available though you would not guess that after listening to the BBC. At times it seems like Paul Johnson is a BBC employee. Next thing you know, people will be saying he is paid too much, it is a waste of the licence fee, blah blah blah.

"Liz Truss is not listening to the big noises who used to work for Cuadrilla,"

Hard to know who she is listening to on this matter. Maybe the current big noises at Cuadrilla and their investors. But then she says "I’m clear we’ll go ahead with fracking in areas where there’s local support." Local support? Unlikely to receive that from many of her party supporters.
I think it will be a long, long while before we see any output as a result of fracking.

"Along with her new energy price cap and the tax cuts, both of which are designed to benefit mainly the better off"

Well yes the tax cuts will benefit the rich and so will the energy price cap. I don't see the sense in the tax cuts myself. The energy price cap is another matter. Those with bigger properties (and more than one property] will benefit more than the average person. I think capping the price at source is the least worse solution. Means testing leads to people missing out even when they need the help. There is also the costs involved in working out who should get the help.

There are not any easy solutions to the problems we are facing now. The costs involved in trying to solve the problems is going to have a long term effect on future governments, whichever party is in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 06:40 AM

The time-honoured clarion call of the right in both the Labour Party and in many trade unions is for "unity." This is always code for saying that if the left won't shut up we might have to kick them out or otherwise sideline them. Well there's a very strong undercurrent of feeling among millions of Labour voters of the party being there for the working people, the disadvantaged, the exploited and the undeserving poor. But for decades we've seen the gap between rich and poor get ever wider, especially under Blair. We've seen Labour embracing the Tory shitting-on-the-unions policies. We've seen Starmer instructing LABOUR MPs (!) not to join picket lines in perfectly legitimate and justified disputes. The upshot is zero-hours, non-recognition of unions in workplaces, gig economy, fake self-employment for millions (who still actually work for other people but with no holiday pay, maternity pay, sick pay...), no job security and the scrapping of workplace rights.

Well I don't know where Starmer and his anodyne lackeys are in all this. I'm sick of seeing "tactics," "We're listening to the people" and the sidelining of the left. It has never worked and it won't work next time. There has been no bold attempt to confront populism and it will be there as strong as ever at the next election - and the left, the true grass roots of a Labour Party that has disastrously allowed itself to become part of the establishment, will also be back. 'Twas ever thus, and, as usual, the left, the people who actually do care about ordinary people, will, as ever, be blamed for "splitting the party." So next time you hear that clarion call for unity, don't forget to prefix it by seeing it as "I'm a charlatan - let's have unity!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:07 AM

The only way out I can see at the moment is proportional representation. Whenever anyone slightly left of centre puts their head above the parapet, the right (or the centrists in newspeak) call on their media mouthpieces to shoot them down and a good portion of the electorate keep falling for it. PR may not be perfect but if it stops the never ending push to the right, it will do me. Let us hope that the next parliament is hung and to get the minority parties on their side, whoever holds most cards makes PR a reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 08:50 AM

But look what happened last time a minority party wheedled itself into government (or at least into a position of being Cameron's lackeys). They destroyed themselves to such a degree that they set back any chance of being in a position to promote PR for years, if not decades. We might as well settle for what we have now and keep the argument going. The LibDems showed that they are not part of the solution. I'm simply not seeing a groundswell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:01 AM

On a lighter note (as long as you like black humour), from todays Daily Mash in a piece telling various groups of people how today's interest rate rise will affect them:

"Aspiring homeowner

You’re f**ked. That deposit you were close to saving isn’t enough, and you can’t afford the monthly payments anyway. You’re at mum and dad’s for another year. On the bright side you’ll earn more interest, house prices will fall and you’ll be able to afford somewhere great in two years. Only problem is you’ll have no job by then."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:03 AM

Bad grammar and punctuation caused by trying to do this on an iPad as I sit in the sun...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:42 AM

There will be full employment by then. They are already asking for volunteers to run the NHS. In 2 years time it will be compulsory for anyone not in employment to be a doctor or nurse. The dividing line will be if you have more than 4 GCSEs. All because we do not have enough staff - Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:18 PM

Well I just watched Question Time. I don't like Wes Streeting, but bechrist he was dynamic, on the ball, well-prepared and confident. He could well be our next man. I also thought that Layla Moran, who I dislike even more, was equally impressive. Of course, she wasn't confronting party politics tonight. Probably not quite days of hope, but a glimmer nonetheless...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 08:22 PM

I've been a bit poorly for the last three weeks (and still have some way to go, though I'm on the mend). I heard a chap on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning talking about his dreadful experience in A&E. He had a ten-hour wait before he was seen by anyone.

Well this is what happened to me. In the early morning of 3 September, out of the blue, I was struck down by a vicious fever that lasted three or four hours. By morning light, my legs started to discolour and were beginning to swell. I knew what this was because I've had the same thing three times before since the start of the pandemic - cellulitis again.

If you start with cellulitis and have the accompanying fever, the advice on the NHS website is to go to A&E. There's the danger that the infection will spread rapidly though the blood system and cause sepsis, which is life-threatening. I arrived at A&E at North Devon District Hospital at 2pm, an hour's drive from our house. The waiting room was hot, stuffy and noisy, quite crowded, and the seats were incredibly uncomfortable. I was seen by a triage nurse at 7pm, a cursory lookover to take my blood pressure and temperature and to confirm who I am.


At 8.15pm I was seen by a doctor, who was lovely, but I was with her for less than five minutes. She prescribed the antibiotics I needed, then said that she would like to do a blood test. The result would take at least an hour to arrive. I told her that I was at the end of my tether, so she agreed that I could have the blood test at my GP surgery on the Monday morning. We got home at 9.45pm. I'm no softie, but the whole experience that day was traumatising in the extreme. A sick bloke in a hot, stuffy room for over six hours on a seat made in hell.

Since then I've had to go back to the hospital five times. The first time, the wait was almost as long, but at least the room was comfortable and the staff very attentive.

The staff at that hospital are angels. They are run off their feet but they are unfailingly wonderful with their patients. My trauma had nothing to do with them. But they are overworked, stressed out and totally knackered. We can't run our health service like this. Twelve years ago when Mrs Steve had issues with cataracts, there was no way that anyone would wait for treatment for more than 18 weeks. When my back needed surgery, I was operated on within ten weeks of first reporting to my GP. Same with my dodgy shoulder when my rotator cuff needed mending.

I don't know what's gone so wrong in the last ten or twelve years. I need Starmer to tell me. I need him to tell me why schools are crumbling away. I need him to tell me why the NHS isn't coping. But where is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 08:59 AM

Well it looks like our lives have been well and truly ****ed by the tories. I hope that those who will be getting the 5% reduction on the top end of their earning will put their money where their mouth is and force, and pay for, their older relatives to go into long stay care so that care home workers benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will only use public toilets instead of their own bathrooms so toilet attendants and cleaners benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will drink dozens of cups of coffee from coffee shops and at least 5 pints of beer every day from local pubs so that hospitality workers will benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will eat twice or three times as much food every day so retail workers benefit from trickle down economics. Also, when the excess alcohol, caffeine and the resulting clinical obesity causes health problems that they will not leech of tax payers and use the NHS to keep them alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 11:32 AM

The new UK Growth Plan will benefit everyone across the whole country. Lower taxes for everyone, more infrastructure, more investment and less regulation. Growth will help raise wages, create jobs, lift incomes and generate more tax revenues

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 11:59 AM

Perhaps, if we actually get growth.

In the meantime the already well off are the only ones who benefit, apart from the immediate discount of energy which will have to repay, possibly with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 12:08 PM

Those who work full time on the national living wage will really be lifted out of the cost of living crisis with their 98 pence per week tax reduction - but will have to wait until April, by which time the tories with their noses in the trough will have pushed inflation up way past that. Surely those who can't be bothered to get a £150,000 a year job should have their tax cuts taken away from them so that their superiors can use it to gorge themselves on Foie Gras.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 12:31 PM

"Lower taxes for everyone"

Not true, Bonzo. Those who do not pay tax - ie the lowest paid - do not benefit at all. As ever, the Tories and you are completely out of touch with the reality of real poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 05:15 PM

Nor is scrapping regulation self-evidently a good idea. The right-wing tale is that it is a block on business, preventing them investing, being more efficient, or some such.

A more honest assessment it that a regulation trades off the different interests of various parties: business, workers, consumers, taxpayers, nearby residents and others, as appropriate. There may be a case to balance these differently. Scrapping them, though says there is only one relevant interested party and that is business. Without a regulation, the other interested parties have no appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, Bonzo old chap, but the Tories have been in charge for twelve long years and have presided over the worst growth, just about, in the western world, as well as flatlining productivity. They have never demonstrated that they have the first clue as to the answer. They are now working directly against the Bank of England (who at least have teams of seasoned economists, not Truss blow-in ideologues). The markets, for what they're worth, have seen the threadbare and gambling nature of the latest approach and the pound is tanking. There is no international confidence in this government. You can't get growth if no-one has the confidence to invest in the country, and you can't get growth if the mass of people (not just the super-rich) haven't got the money to go and spend in shops. Retail spending plummeted in August. Just you wait for Christmas. And the government have not put money in most people's pockets, at least nowhere near enough to give them any more than just being able to plough a bit into their energy bills, then go along to the nearest food bank. What we've seen today is right-wing ideology and Tory hubris writ large. We're stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:34 AM

The times we are living in hey? The Tories finally admitting that Corbyn was right about borrowing and borrowing. The Tories giving up on balancing the books. Spend today and let those in the future figure out how it is to he paid back.

Remains to be seen if this policy will work out or not. Now that Boris has gone the Tories have elected a Tory as leader. Had to happen sometime I suppose. A case of be careful of what you wish for, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:17 AM

Many of us have been appalled by the cavalier attitude of ministers over the past few years.

The latest revelation relates to our new leader during her sojourn in the Foreign Office. It is alleged that amongst other dubious expenditure the department spent £900 with a company called Calm over Chaos which produces colouring books for adults.

I had a quick scan on their website and frankly the colouring books are, in my opinion, shite ................. and VERY expensive, but why on earth is a government department buying such things.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/23/liz-truss-questions-foreign-office-spending-hair-norwich-city

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:28 AM

I think there is certainly a lot to question in the department's expenditure, but the colouring books may or not be one of them. Much depends on the context.

My daughter works in HR for a private firm and my daughter-in-law for MacMillian's Nurses. Both have a role in trying to ensure the wellbeing of the staff in the organisation. Personally, such colouring books do nothing for me, but I know people who say they find them helpful to de-stress.   If that 900 is say a bulk order of 300 books to be used throughout the department, it may be one of the more reasonable expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:42 AM

You may be correct to say that colouring books are helpful to "de-stress" you may be correct to say that £900 for 300 books is cost effective.

However I would say that individuals should buy such things out of their own salary. I would also add that some of these these books retail at £16 each.

https://calmoverchaos.co.uk/collections/all

I would also say that this is an abuse of government funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:04 AM

I agree that the individual cost of those books is very high. I am not sure how much of a discount you could reasonably get for a bulk buy either, so my estimate of getting to around £3 from the £15 or so individual price could be wide of the mark.

Employers have a 'duty of care' as a legal responsibility. It is generally thought these days that includes the mental health of staff as well as their physical health. If the organisation believes it does, it will look at all sorts of things. For example, my last employer mainly did it by placing a contract with an agency you could contact to discuss mental health concerns. It also subsidised membership of nearby gyms and things like that, under the umbrella 'duty of care' idea on the physical side.

Yes, you can certainly argue that should all be coming out of the individual's salary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:13 AM

There needs to be a change in company law so that all directors and others with significant control have to declare their own and closely related family members membership of political parties and all corporate or individual party donations, That way we can take a first step forward towards transparency of intent with regards to public sector procurement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 11:03 AM

"There needs to be a change in company law so that all directors and others with significant control have to declare their own and closely related family members membership of political parties and all corporate or individual party donations, That way we can take a first step forward towards transparency of intent with regards to public sector procurement."

Absolute lefty bollocks, one's political affiliations are as private as an election ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 11:12 AM

It should be a requirement that, where possible, companies doing government work are registered here in the UK for tax purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:01 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:14 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:46 PM

Quite simple, Bonzo. If they are benefitting from government funds, they should be contributing to the fund and accountable to the state

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:57 PM

> Why?

So the money has a better chance of staying in this country. It's better to bail the water out of a boat than to knock a drain-hole in the keel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:05 PM

.... through the hull next to the keel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:05 PM

I don't agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:06 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:30 PM

Because it's lefty claptrap, and will never be law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:53 PM

”Because it's lefty claptrap”

Sounds more like a sound Patriotic principle to me, that tax raised on taxpayers’ money paid to contractor-companies should stay in the UK to be used by the government for the benefit of the population of the UK.

I thought you Tory Arse-Lickers and Flag-shaggers prided yourselves on your Patriotism?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:55 PM

Half of the tax cuts announced are going to the richest five percent of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:11 PM

They contribute most in taxation!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:45 PM

The planned rise in corporation tax does not go ahead and it is described as a cut.

The planned rise in excise duty does not go ahead and it is described as frozen. That is if it is mentioned at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:15 PM

So you strongly object to transparency that allows people to make the decisions to boycott companies and businesses connected to self-serving, tories with their snouts in the trough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:37 PM

Kwarteng, who was educated at a good prep school, Eton and Cambridge, has argued that many supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement and critics of British imperialism have "a very kind of cartoon-like view" of the past, arguing:

So within that time and geography there's a huge amount of variety, different cultures and different time periods and getting a sensitivity to that is hugely important and I think a lot of the debate around Black Lives Matter and imperialism or colonialism has a very kind of cartoon-like view of what was happening over centuries across a quarter of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:02 PM

You said it, Bonzo. He's been brought up in an entitled bubble and he doesn't understand anything about anything. His ideological tax project is doomed to failure - and I think you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:03 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:55 PM

Half of the tax cuts announced are going to the richest five percent of the population.

Any background on that claim?
Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:17 PM

If you google "half the tax cuts go to the richest five percent" you'll get lots of backup for that, Nigel, including from the Resolution Foundation. Go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:36 PM

Perhaps contemplate this too from t/the Guardian editorial today: The Guardian view on the Tory trickle up policies: redistributing to the rich

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:59 PM

”Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances'”

The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 6% - a reduction of 5% on the Addtional Tax Rate, and 1% on the Basic Rate.

Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on the Basic Rate.

Those earning less than £12,751 will see no benefit at all.

Do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit from tax cuts to those who need them the least, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Are you so blinded by Tory propaganda and dogma?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:13 AM

I’ll try that again - typed in the middle of the night during a bout of insomnia. The brain was very tired but wouldn’t go to sleep! Would a Mod please delete my post of 24 Sep 22 - 09.59 PM above?

The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 5% on their earnings at Addtional Tax Rate, £150,001 and above, and 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,751 to £50,270.

Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,571 to £50,270.

Those earning less than £12,751 don’t pay tax, and they will see no benefit at all.

During a Cost of Living crisis, and at a time when energy bills have doubled this year v. last year, do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit to those who need it the least, a lesser benefit to middle-earners, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Surely, even an inveterate nit-picker can see it, or are you so blinded by Tory dogma and propaganda that this inequity is lost on you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 06:59 AM

Surely if this government wants to be seen as a government of low taxation the most equitable way to lower tax is to raise the tax threshold.

Although this will not benefit the very poor, more people would benefit if the tax threshold was raised from £12,751 to a higher figure of (for example) £16,000 or £18,000.

The rich would benefit just the same as the not so well off. Not ideal for the very low income people I realise but better than cutting the top rate of taxation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 07:58 AM

The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:04 AM

Income tax payments are concentrated amongst those with the largest incomes. The 10% of income taxpayers with the largest incomes contribute over 60% of income tax receipts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:31 AM

"The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax."

What an arrogant, thoughtless, uncaring and callous statement that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:26 AM

You didn't need to use so many adjectives, Raggy. Just Tory would have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:57 AM

Steve:
If you google "half the tax cuts go to the richest five percent" you'll get lots of backup for that, Nigel, including from the Resolution Foundation. Go for it!
As suggested I googled that, complete with quote marks, and got no hits.

I also tried it without the quotes and got the Guardian where, after using a version of the above headline they immediately corrected themselves, saying: Almost half of the personal tax cuts in the mini-budget will go to the richest 5% of the population, according to analysis by leading economic thinktanks.

Fortunately I don't rely on people quoting headlines, but read a little further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:00 AM

Come now, Nigel, that news is all over the place now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:15 AM

Try This one, Nigel

Or this one

And what does it matter if 49% rather than 50 % is going to the top 5%? It would be wrong even if 30% or 40% was going to those who do not need it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:09 PM

Dave:
The Independent is behind a paywall (or sign up for a free trial)
City A.M. does indeed have the same headline, but goes on to quote the actual statement: “45 per cent will go to the richest five per cent alone, who will be £8,560 better off.

Yes, it is all a matter of degree, but then why make unsubstantiated claims (of 'half') rather than quoting what the Resolution Foundation actually says (45%)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:12 PM

Them nits are getting well picked. Whether it is half or nearly half does not matter at all Nigel. The point is that while the top 5% get the lions share the rest of us still struggle and those not earning enough to pay tax get sweet FA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:22 PM

If they haven't paid any tax then there's no need for them to get any back. They get benefits for doing nothing, dropping babies and generally skiving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:35 PM

and those not earning enough to pay tax get sweet FA.
Except for those working for employers who have signed up to the 'Living wage' which has just increased by approximately 10%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:36 PM

You have no idea do you, Bonzo. There are many who, through no fault of their own, simply cannot earn enough. Their fuel and food bills are going up as much as those who earn £150K+ a year yet they get nothing while those who do not need it are getting thousands back in tax reductions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:40 PM

If they are on a living wage and working full time they pay tax, Nigel, I don't undertand your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 02:10 PM

”You have no idea do you, Bonzo.”

He gets it alright, Dave. He’s just being a bell-end. Ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:19 PM

Dave:
If they are on the living wage, but not working full time they may not be paying tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:32 AM

Yes, Nigel. I just said that! My point is that those not paying tax - IE the poorest - are getting no help while nearly half of the top 5% of earners get thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:35 AM

Sorry, mistyped. Should read nearly half of the tax cuts goes to the top 5% of earners who get thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 03:04 AM

Sterling falls to record low against the US Dollar.

And the BBC are reporting this morning that the value of the pound fell overnight to an even lower level - $1.04 - close to parity! Will someone remind us which party claims to be the Party of financial competence and responsibility, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:01 AM

I've pinched that, John :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:17 AM

This is serious. Kwarteng has signalled that more tax cuts are to come, a move that has completely spooked the markets and investors. Looks like the Bank of England will have to do an emergency hike in interest rates to control inflation. I hope all those mortgaged middle-Englanders who voted Tory are happy now. On Friday afternoon, the tax cuts were described as "a gamble." It's only Monday morning and it's crystal clear that the gamble has failed. But will he U-turn? Why, of course not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:01 AM

I wonder what’s happened to our resident Tory-Greed-and-Selfishness Apologists this morning? Why aren’t they here explaining to us all how Schrodinger’s Vote works - how voting Tory, and thus against our own best interests, would be in our best interests?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:11 AM

A fall in the higher rate tax band from 45% to 40% means that bonuses and dividends will need to be delayed until the new tax year to pay the lower rate of tax - good tax planning!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:20 AM

At least Jonathan Pie can see Tories for the greedy, self-serving, arrogant bunch of shits they undoubtedly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 01:26 PM

From live reporting:

Labour conference votes to put pledge to introduce PR in manifesto - despite Starmer already ruling it out
The proportional representation motion has been carried.

There is quite loud cheering – even though Keir Starmer has said he will ignore the vote, and not include PR in the Labour manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:40 PM

I think that could yet turn out to be another Starmer blunder.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:40 PM

"But will he U-turn? Why, of course not!"

Even you would not expect a U turn after a couple of days. The markets will do what markets do. Some people will make a lot of money from 'gambling' on the markets. Such is modern life. We will have to wait and see how it turns out.

Imagine the coverage if it was a Labour government pursuing these policies. Money trees appear to grow on money trees these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 04:49 PM

Polly Toynbee has a piece in the Guardian today predicting that the catastrophes of recent times will see the Tories gone for a generation. Well I'm not so sure. This is an extract from a reader's comment on the article which exactly reflects what I think.

"I was SURE the electorate would never vote to cut ties with our closest and biggest trading partner and deny themselves free movement. I was SURE that no one could ever, seriously, with a straight face, vote for a comical ridiculous buffoon of an Etonian caricature to lead the country. I was SURE that absolutely no one could ever, seriously, with a straight face, endorse Thick 'This. Is. A. Disgrace!!' Lizzy as a world leader. Every time you put faith in the English electorate, you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment.

Best case scenario? Labour scrape a slim majority at the next election, and find themelves faced with a country absolutely destroyed by the scorched earth of 2 years of Trussonomics. No way they can fix it in 5 years, by which time the Tories will have a new face at the helm with a "bold, new vision" who has spent years shifting onto Labour the blame for everything wrong with the country they inherited, and the masses rush to tick their nice, familiar Tory box in 2029. Tories gone for a generation?? Not even if they slaughtered our first-born. England is inherently, irrevocably Tory."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 05:03 PM

And so they should be!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:21 PM

"England is inherently, irrevocably Tory."

England maybe. I have not checked the figures. The UK, certainly not.

Since 1945 we have always ended up with governments who have not been voted for by the majority of people in this country. More often than not that is a Tory government. That is the British way. Neither the Tories or Labour want to change that. Some of us think that is wrong but it is unlikely to change in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:49 AM

New definition of a tory - someone who wouldn't give a toss if an older relative was to die of hypothermia because they can't afford to heat their homes, then start whining because they have to pay inheritance tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:52 AM

So King Charles the Turd isn't a Tory then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 09:52 AM

The abolition of the 45% rate leaves in place the 60% tax rate suffered by thousands in the £100-£125,000 bracket, another threshold that has remained unchanged for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:30 AM

What 60% tax rate might that be??

Starmer acquitted himself well in his speech. All aspiration, of course, and he was clearly cock-a-hoop about the great Tory implosion of the last few days. However, if he does get power he's got a lot of cleaning up to do, and it's got to be paid for sharpish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:50 AM

The greedy, incompetent, dishonest Tories are busy doing what they always do when they know the wheels are coming off and they’re f**ked - they’re doing a huge wealth-grab on behalf of the already-wealthy (which, of course, includes themselves), they’re deliberately tanking the economy, and they’re doing all this to leave huge problems for the incoming (hopefully Labour) government to have to solve and, in so doing, make themselves unpopular again.

‘A Parcel of Rogues’ barely covers it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:58 AM

When the pound falls against the ruble, someone needs to U-turn, sharpish. I really, really hope that whichever scriptwriter put the "You turn if you like" joke into Maggie Hatchett's speech meets a suitably gory end: he or she has made it impossible now for *any* politician to admit they were in error, and need to correct the course of the country, in the light of fresh evidence. Even casino owners don't permit punters on a losing streak to double down on a bet more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:15 PM

apparently traders are referring to Truss as “Daggers” - as in Dagenham, 2 stops past Barking

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:41 PM

‘Thick Lizzie’ and ‘Krazy Kwarteng’ here in The Backwoods. Sounds dead right!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 03:58 AM

Does anyone think the media is determined to try and make the Rupa Huq story into the new antisemitism charge against Labour?   It was very heavily pushed on Newsnight, more than most things that happened at conference, including, in my subjective view, than Starmer's speech. And here it is again being brought up in the early morning interviews.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 04:26 AM

I've actually complained to the BBC in the past about Kirsty Wark (about how, in a particular interview, she blatantly indulged the Tory whilst not allowing the Labour spokesman to get a single sentence out). I got nowhere, of course. She was like a dog with a bone last night over the alleged racist remark by a Labour MP. It came up again on Today this morning and I thought Starmer handled it well, though the interviewer was less aggressive. It was a clasp-a-hand-to-the-head moment when I first heard about it yesterday, knowing how the media would go into a frenzy over it. Whilst not wishing to indulge in whataboutery here, I couldn't help recalling how the Tories managed to brush off Muslim women wearing letterboxes looking like bank robbers, flag-waving piccaninnies and bum boys in tank tops. A double standard, one which Labour have got to be a damn sight more savvy about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 04:38 AM

It’s a pity the press and media don’t seem to have noticed Krazy Kwarteng sitting in his pew, grinning like a Loon on Gak at the Queen’s funeral. If that had been a Labour politician, they’d have been all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:02 AM

I hadn't seen all the details about Rupa Hoq but if even Angela Rayner said the remarks were unacceptable then it must be serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:04 AM

4000!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:12 AM

She called Kwarteng "Superficialy black". I can understand her comments as he did go to Eton and had a priviledged background, unlike so many other black people. However, weaponising someone's colour, gender, sexual orientation or anything else that they have no control over is unacceptable and it is right that she is suspended pending an investigation. I think if she were to apologise to Kwarteng and to the house, publicly, she would have done far more to atone than Bozzer ever did and should be readmitted with a caution. Just my view of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:35 AM

She has already apologised to the Chancellor and so I think she would willingly apologised to the house given the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 09:00 AM

What does ‘superficially black’ mean? If Kwasi Kwateng doesn’t sound black how should he sound innit??????????????????????????

More than half of all this is simply lefty envy at someone who went to a top public school, compared with someone who had a baby at 16 and sponged off the government for benefits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 09:15 AM

Top public schools benefit from charitable status and the teachers therein were largely trained in colleges founded at public expense and had their training paid for by the taxpayer. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 09:22 AM

And actually, it doesn't say much for those top public schools when you consider that the dross who've been running the country into the ground for the last twelve years mostly went to them. Liz Truss, naturally, being a dishonourable exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 10:53 AM

"Top public schools benefit from charitable status and the teachers therein were largely trained in colleges founded at public expense and had their training paid for by the taxpayer"

And? Those working in those schools will be paying their taxes. Are you saying that all charities should not be allowed any tax advantages?


With regards to Rupa Huq's stupid comment, she was most likely just playing to her audience who probably lapped it up. Guess people might say she was aiming to be populist.

But

"In her letter to Kwarteng, Huq said she “spoke in haste and adopted clumsy language which in no way reflects my views or those of the Labour party” – and said during the fringe event she cited the fact that the Conservatives had had four black and Asian chancellors “as a positive”."

Something Labour could bear in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 11:39 AM

Of course they'll be paying their taxes. But they were trained at public expense, then toddled off to work in a school to which most of the public can't afford to go to or are excluded from and which gets tax breaks at public expense. Still, I suppose it's worth it when we get people of the calibre of Johnson and Cameron... Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 12:12 PM

As I have said a number of times, Labour does need to s6art to get their arse in key

From the BBC

Labour's Rosie Duffield says party has 'work to do' in South East

"Labour has "an awful lot of work to do" to win seats in parts of the South East, the party's Canterbury MP says.

Speaking at the Labour Conference, Rosie Duffield suggested her party had focused more on the North and Midlands.

"It feels a little bit as though Kent possibly doesn't matter as much as some of the other areas like the 'red wall'. she said.

The Labour Party said it was prioritising areas, including the South East, that had been "neglected".

Ms Duffield is the Labour Party's only MP in Kent, having won the once-Conservative stronghold of Canterbury in 2017.

Ms Duffield told BBC South East on Monday: "I'm the only one in Parliament talking about those issues with our farmers and the impact of Brexit and the things directly affecting us, like tourism. So it would be nice to know that Kent was being listened to.""

And

"Ms Duffield said the party needed to "show itself a bit more around Kent" if it wanted to win the next general election.

"It would be nice if we just felt that we were just as important," she said.

The MP said she was not aware of Sir Keir Starmer visiting the county since he became Labour's leader, but said he should come to Kent to understand more of the local issues.

Ms Nandy said on her next visit to Kent she would bring Mr Starmer with her, "to meet Rosie, and all those people she represents"."


I can remember going to hear Michael Foot give a speech to a packed and lively crowd here in Dover. By lively I do mean that some people had to be persuaded to leave. Those were the days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 12:29 PM

Do none of your family claim benefits, Bonzo? I seem to remember saying you had a disabled wife. Are you missing out on a free handout for some reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 12:31 PM

He doesn't pay for a dog licence!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 01:15 PM

There is no requirement for anyone to ‘pay for a dog licence’. Unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 04:56 PM

In answer to your question Dave, I somehow doubt it.

Lets see if we get a response to contradict me ..............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 11:12 AM

While waiting at the garage for my car's MOT, there was a television on in the corner showing, I think, the BBC 24 hour news, though it could have been another BBC channel.

When they were talking about the local radio interviews which Truss gave, I got a distinct impression some of the pauses been the question and Truss answering had been edited out. It would take a proper comparison with other recordings, and maybe they had picked out some answers I hadn't heard where she didn't pause, but that's not how it felt to me.

Did it seem like that to anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 11:16 AM

I have give up on watching the news, DMcG. It's all bad :-( Reading about it on the BBC news site is bad enough and when I see something of interest I tend to look at various sources before making my mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 11:26 AM

I haven't got the buttocks man enough to sufficiently clench whenever I see or hear her. I heard a couple of clips of her hesitating, blaming the global mess, blaming Putin and doing her not-for-turning bit. She's making Boris Johnson look like a paragon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 01:26 PM

"Do none of your family claim benefits, Bonzo? I seem to remember saying you had a disabled wife. Are you missing out on a free handout for some reason?"

Those government payments to which we are eligible will be received.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 01:33 PM

"Those government payments to which we are eligible will be received."

Ah, OK. So just like Angela Raynor, you claim what you are entitled to? What is the difference then between you and her who "sponged off the government for benefits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 03:44 PM

WE do not have to claim anything, it is credited to our bank account!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 03:50 PM

That is a level of nit-picking Nigel would be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 04:23 PM

From the Guardian's live feed:

Ed Vaizey has been on LBC’s Tonight with Andrew Marr.

Marr asked: You [Tories] are deep, deep in the doo-dah, aren’t you?

Lord Vaizey replied: “I think that’s fair to say. I think the situation is suboptimal, I think is probably the phrase that I’m searching for."

"Suboptimal." I absolutely LOVE that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 05:20 PM

Bonzo ........... you had to apply for those benefits.

I, for one, do not begrudge you those benefits, it is what the trade unions and the labour party, in particular, fought for.

However when you begrudge those self same benefits for other people, and claim they are scoungers and spongers I, and I would suspect many other people, see you as a two faced b**t**d.

So please do not claim those benefits are sent to you by a benign and benevolent system over which you had no control.

You HAD to apply for those benefits and they were won for you by the very people you despise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 05:35 PM

Not at all Bonzo, but I do see a bigotted two faced bastard !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 05:40 PM

Just one more thing Bonzo I, for one, will henceforth refer to you as that scrounging bugger who lives on benefits. Which is something I've never thought of for people who have to receive benefits in order to live.

Hope you sleep well tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:02 PM

I don't get the disability living allowance, Mrs Bonzo does. I work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:21 PM

Well Kwasi won't commit to putting up benefits in line with inflation, you poor thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 03:21 AM



Fair enough, Then you are happy for Mrs Bonzo to be called one who ""sponged off the government for benefits", we assume.

By the by, I have a nit-pick for you. You said the money was paid into "our" bank account rather than "her" bank account. That sounds like you are getting the benefit of it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 04:17 AM

Latest from Newsthump :-)

Truss plans to return to Feudal system

I love the last phrase - "a Prime Minister who would be out of her depth in a puddle."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 05:28 AM

That depend on how a person got their disability, if for example you step out in front of a bus that would be stupidity.

However the fact remains that YOU benefits from those benefits that you would deny to other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 05:35 AM

Er, the benefits are largely there so that the baby may be brought up in a decent and humanitarian manner, as opposed to an early life of grinding poverty and instability. We do not run society on the premise that we decide who is deserving and who isn't, in our high-flown opinions. The NHS treats many morbidly obese people for diabetes and heart disease, or people who have picked up a nice dose of the clap after some careless sleeping-around, and doesn't turn away people with cirrhosis after a lifetime of heavy drinking. Many people with disabilities might be regarded as "having brought it on themselves" by people of a certain way of thinking. Maybe you'd care to draw up a comprehensive table for us of who should get what and who shouldn't, based on your mighty powers of judgementalism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 07:37 AM

I have asked before if some of you talk to people in the same way that you post here at times. Somehow I doubt it. That assumes that you actually have conversations with people who hold different political views.

It does come across as childish behaviour. You don't have to respond to any post that is intended to wind you up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 08:38 AM

They don't wear knickers in Croydon, lads. Too inconvenient...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 09:28 AM

> She's making Boris Johnson look like a paragon.

Methunk that was the whole point of him anointing Trusspot as his successor ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:25 PM

”You don't have to respond to any post that is intended to wind you up.”

I agree 100% with Raindog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:27 PM

Considering what and who you voted for on the right side of the pond at roughly the same time as the things (policies AND people) we voted for on the left side of the pond, I have come to the theory that there is something in that pond water and we should not drink so much of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:33 PM

Robo :-D big grin. Luckily, some of us drink good beer instead :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:47 PM

Or Collapso, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 02:13 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 04:33 AM

HMRC are reminding teenagers turning 18 to claim their matured Child Trust Funds (CTFs), which could hold savings worth an average of £2,100.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 06:08 AM

A below-the-line comment under today's political live feed in today's Guardian:

"She doesn't have a desire to create growth. She doesn't know what that even is (hint, you need strong trading links, reputation for trustworthiness, a well educated, healthy, motivated population, a fully funded state system [sic], regulated businesses, protected environments and suchlike). All she has is demented reveries about growth magically arriving and handing her party a fit and healthy country, not the knackered, cheated, plundered, internationally isolated basket case they've made it into."

Couldn't agree more. And even "Mad Nad" Dorries thinks that Truss is lurching to the right over her refusal to confirm that benefits will rise in line with inflation. Oh, the irony...

As a consequence of the freezing of the personal tax allowance over several years and the cancelling of the NI increase, among other things, the top ten percent of earners will now benefit by well over £2000 per annum. The poorest will benefit by thirteen quid. Please don't tell me that the Tories don't know what they're doing.

Note: as things stand, my teacher's pension, which is index-linked, as well as my old age pension, will rise by about 10% in April. Mrs Steve, the same. Unless Truss hurries up and agrees to upgrade benefits in line with prices, UC claimants will get about half that percentage on a much smaller amount (and who knows how much more stringent a sanctions regime...)

Well we comfy pensioners generally turn out to vote, and there's a rich vein of Tory voters contained therein. On the other hand, the very few UC claimants who vote Tory, if they even vote at all, well, wouldn't be much of a loss...

Call me Mr Cynical if you like...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 07:10 AM

Steve: as things stand, my teacher's pension, which is index-linked, as well as my old age pension, will rise by about 10% in April
Yes, but state pensions will still not catch up with inflation (over 3 years) thanks to a one-year suspension of the 'triple-lock': Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 07:29 AM

Yes, I know. And I'm not knocking the predicted increase at all. We still have very poor old age pensions compared with the rest of the western world. I think she'd break that triple lock on next year's pensions increase if she thought she could get away with it without causing an insurrection - remember Hell's Grannies? :-)

As for teachers' pensions, we were mollified for decades by the prospect of decent index-linked final salary pensions (which is what Mrs Steve and I have got) which compensated (sort of) for teachers' low pay compared to other professions. So I'm not knocking that either. We're lucky in our house to have both.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 07:31 AM

Don’t worry, Nigel, the tax-dodging, multi-millionaire toffs, whose shitty party you defend so valiantly, won’t notice the lag in their state-pension uplift caused by the suspension of the triple-lock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 08:43 AM

Had the Bank of England not intervened to buy £65 billion of government debt last week, millions of pensioners might have seen their pension schemes going bust. From the Guardian:

Pension funds managing vast sums on behalf of retirees across Britain came close to collapse amid an “unprecedented” meltdown in UK government bond markets after Kwasi Kwarteng’s mini-budget, the Bank of England has said.

Explaining its emergency intervention to calm turmoil in financial markets last week, the central bank said pension funds with more than £1tn invested in them came under severe strain with a “large number” in danger of going bust.

The Bank said a dramatic rise for interest rates on long-dated UK government bonds in the days immediately after the chancellor’s mini-budget had triggered a “self-reinforcing” spiral in debt markets, putting the stability of Britain’s financial system at risk.

Had the Bank not intervened with a promise to buy up to £65bn of government debt, funds managing money on behalf of pensioners across the country “would have been left with negative net asset value” and cash demands they could not have met.

“As a result, it was likely that these funds would have to begin the process of winding up the following morning,” the Bank said.

The level of incompetence is frightening. We might have had a few laughs (of derision, not out of humour) at this appalling shower supposedly running the country this past week, but I don't think I'm exaggerating when I express the view that they are a positively dangerous and unfunny bunch of bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 10:38 AM

Just to clear things up a little. The Bank has not spent £65bn.

From the excert which Steve had quoted:

"Had the Bank not intervened with a promise to buy up to £65bn of government debt,"

It has not helped that the media have been reporting that £65bn has been spent. It hasn't. That is not to say that it will not be spent. We will have to wait and see: a) if that happens, and b) if anyone reports that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 04:27 AM

Quite so. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:43 AM

There appears to be a new trend among male Tory MPs which involves stroking other blokes' thighs when pissed. I wonder what this latest one said to Mel B in the lift. She's refrained from divulging so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 08:08 AM

As of Thursday evening

Risk of £50bn bond sale sparked emergency Bank of England move


"The Bank emergency intervention is due to end next week and it has so far bought a fraction of the government bonds it could have, spending just £3.7bn.

On Thursday, the Bank said it would wind down its bond buying in "a smooth and orderly fashion" once it felt the market was functioning normally again.

The Bank also said it is working with the UK's pensions and financial regulators to make sure that that investment strategies used by certain types of pension schemes can withstand market volatility."


It just goes to remind us about the dodgy world of banking, finance, investment etc.

From the Financial Times

LDI: the better mousetrap that almost broke the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 04:44 PM

Backwoodsman:
Don’t worry, Nigel, the tax-dodging, multi-millionaire toffs, whose shitty party you defend so valiantly,

It might have escaped your notice that the Conservative party took 43% of the vote. I'm sure that not even your grasp on figures would suggest that that 43% are all tax-dodging millionaire toffs. But you probably won't agree with the facts as opposed to your idea of 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 04:57 PM

Stop pretending to be stupid, Nigs - you know precisely who I was talking about. Your desperate nit-picking persuades no-one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 06:18 PM

One things for sure Nigel: thickie Liz didn't get 43% of anybody's vote. I doubt very much whether she would get anything like 43% of Tory MPs' vote at the moment. And she has the worst approval rating of any PM in history. Only Kamikwasi has a lower rating. Still, I expect you don't care much for Observer polls.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 04:42 AM

Point of order: 43% was the percentage of those who voted Tory in the 1983 election, which gave Maggie Hatchett a thumping majority for her second term. *That*'s when the problems with her headbangers really started, as they could sound off without attracting the undivided attention of the Whips. They've had the bit between their teeth ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 05:18 AM

That is our wonderful voting system in all its glory. You can see why the 2 major parties don't want to change it.

Year Government seat majority vote share
1979 Tory                43   43.9%
1983 Tory               144   42.4%
1987 Tory               102   42.2%
1992 Tory                21   41.9%
1997 Labour             179   43.2%
2001 Labour             167   40.7%
2005 Labour             66   35.2%

The other worrying trend is the fall in the turnout.
1945 to 1997 turnout never fell below 71.4% (1997). Highest was 83.9% (1950)

Since 2001 the turnout has never been above 70%. Lowest was 59.4% (2001) and the highest was 68.8% (2017)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 05:54 AM

Majoc the Filk: Point of order: 43% was the percentage of those who voted Tory in the 1983 election,

I was quoting the results from the latest, 2019, General Election.
If you would like clarification the details are in House of Commons Library

Where it states:
The 2019 General Election resulted in a Conservative victory. The party won 365 seats, 48 more than in 2017, and 43.6% of the vote, up from 42.3% in 2017. The Labour Party won 202 seats and 32.1% of the vote, down from 262 seats and 40.0% of the vote in 2017. The Liberal Democrats won 11 seats, one fewer than in 2017, and 11.5% of the vote, up from 7.4%.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 06:14 AM

Steve: One things for sure Nigel: thickie Liz didn't get 43% of anybody's vote
True. Liz Truss got 57.4% of the votes in the final round of the leadership contest. (which, before 'turnout' is queried, was 47% of the available vote)
Source

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 06:19 AM

And for the most recent General Election Liz Truss got 69% of the voters who turned out, or 45% of the total votes available (Turnout 65.6%)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 08:07 AM

She got about 81,000 votes (0.2% of the UK electorate), mostly from right-wing, wealthy, elderly white people. Lest we forget. In the last general election she was not a candidate for prime minister. This prime minister was not democratically elected except as an MP. Yes, it's happened before. I never approved in those cases either. Technically, we vote only for MPs in general elections. But let's not kid ourselves, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 01:07 PM

69% of the UK electorate voted for truss in South West Norfolk????? Has anyone notified the police and electoral commission? That sounds like electoral fraud on a massive scale. Otherwise tory lackeys need to just admits that that useless, waste of space has been inflicted on us by only 117,000 self-serving tory proverbials. Hardly a national mandate for her changes in government policy direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 02:54 PM

And for the most recent General Election Liz Truss got 69% of the voters who turned out (in her constituency), or 45% of the total votes available (Turnout 65.6%)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 03:28 AM

Hardly a NATIONAL mandate, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 04:26 AM

From the BBC

Sam Tarry: Former shadow minister ousted in deselection vote

"Former shadow minister Sam Tarry has lost a battle to keep hold of his London seat in the first deselection of a Labour MP for more than a decade.

The vote by party members means Mr Tarry, an ex-trade union official, will not stand as Ilford South's Labour candidate at the next general election.

He was beaten by Redbridge Council leader Jas Athwal, by 499 votes to 361.

Mr Tarry had previously beaten Mr Athwal to contest the seat in controversial circumstances in 2019.

Just before the 2019 selection, Mr Athwal, who had been the favourite to win, was suspended over "extremely serious allegations", which ruled him out of the race.

He had always denied the allegations and was later cleared. Mr Athwal claimed the complaint was "malicious" and politically motivated.

The move sparked accusations of a "stitch-up" to allow Mr Tarry, a supporter of then-party leader Jeremy Corbyn, to become the candidate.

Mr Tarry has represented Ilford South since the December 2019 election. He replaced Mike Gapes, who had held the seat since 1992 but resigned from Labour alongside six other MPs that February."

I guess Angela will not be too happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 04:29 AM

Did anybody stroke anybody else's thigh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 06:52 AM

You know the old joke about the Yorkshire excercise class don't you Steve?

"Hands on thighs..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 05:17 PM

So Tarry is employing Carter-Ruck now. It will all end in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 11:04 AM

trusspot wasted the electricity on my TV talking complete drivel in answers PMQ. it claims that mortgage repayments going up by £7,200 is more than covered by elctrictiy not going up by another £1,000. Claiming
that it has brought down energy charges is a blatant lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 11:13 AM

I'm convinced she was only brought in so we couldn't say that Bozo was the worst prime minister ever.

Still, it could be worse. Imagine if Jeremy Corbyn had got it. We would have all been drafted into the Russian army by now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 11:17 AM

I don’t understand how Thick Lizzy and Krazy (or do I mean ‘Khazi’) Kwarteng are still in their jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 11:45 AM

They are still in a job ans it means MPs who could lose their seats if there was general election can at least keep their snouts in the trough for a couple of years, and line up their future careers as lobby consultants and paid board positions in corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 07:25 AM

Khazi Kwarteng got the bullet - thank fuck for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 08:25 AM

Didn't last long did he!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 08:26 AM

I gather he has had the second shortest term as chacellor, with only Ian Macleod being shorter. However, as his excuse was that he died in office, it seems fairer to give the award to Kwarteng.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 09:50 AM

What are the odds on Truss lasting to th eend of the year?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 09:53 AM

maybe we could have a sweepstake - i'd guess next wednesday 19th. if not today.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 09:59 AM

But now we have Jeremy *unt as chancellor. The overseer of the wrecking of the NHS...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 10:04 AM

wasn't there a Lansley involved? and the liberal democrats obviously

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 11:00 AM

Herself's on knitting duty by the guillotine TV .... when it was reported that a removal van was outside Number 11, even before the announcement in question, I realised "removal van" is the new way to spell "tumbril".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 12:13 PM

I've told three people today that *unt is the new chancellor. They all told me not to be bloody stupid - it isn't April 1...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 12:20 PM

Just heard a repeat of the alleged press conference by TrussBot, and it's even more wooden than I remember: the same reply to all four questions from the audience, reiterating her speech without changing a word (*bzzzt* "Repetition!"). Presumably she's waiting for the maintenance crew to reprogram her, or busy-waiting on Greenpeace activists sending her a non-maskable interrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 12:48 PM

The general consensus seems to be that she's made things worse. A below-the-line comment on the Guardian's live report:

"Waiting for Truss to come to her senses is like waiting for a crocodile to turn vegan."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 01:04 PM

Truss is 8 to 13 on to be removed in 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 01:37 PM

Truss sacking Khazi Kwarteng is like a ventriloquist sacking the dummy for not liking what it was saying…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 01:48 PM

Just read that Khazi Kwarteng hasn’t left Downing Street yet, they’re working to extricate him from under the bus…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 22 - 05:00 AM

From Paul Cookson on FarceBook - too good not to post!

Daily poem

Okay then, this is what happened. I was most of the way through the following poem yesterday when the news came in. I thought it would be a shame to waste all those rhymes so I had to rewrite the ending ...

THE KRAZY KWASI KARTENG KARTOON KRACKPOT KALCULATOR

It’s magical and mythical
Most marvellous creation
Mysterious and mystical
Guaranteed to save a nation
No-one knows just how it works
Not even its creator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

Defies the views of experts
With built in analytics
Internal logic systems
That don’t deal in specifics
Completely independent
Requires no regulator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

You simply could not make it up
Except the fact he did it
Can’t comprehend the working out
Not least because he hid it
No mere work of fiction like
The Great Glass Elevator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

Only has two buttons
No need for anymore
Addition for the rich
Subtraction for the poor
A tap-tap here, a tap-tap there
For the fiscal mass debater
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

No memory recall at all
No sign of the times
No button for division
Or for the equal sign
An extra button labelled
Rich Tax Renumerator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

The madman of the maths
The crazy vacant grin
Glasses glazed and fazed
At the numbers massaged in
Self satisfied and glassy eyed
The smile of an alligator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

It’s got the bells and whistles
It pings and dings and makes a noise
Rotates, vibrates and calculates
For boys who like to play with toys
No real sign of growth at all
From this simulator
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

Tap five and eight, double oh, eight
Then turn it upside down
An adequate description
To the answers that he’s found
Still he cannot handle
The budget hot potato
The Krazy Kwasi Karteng Kartoon Krackpot Kalculator

Uh-oh, oh no – out of control
Nothing’s making sense
Disrupting and bankrupting
Changing pounds to pence
Someone has to take the blame
So goodbye! See you later …

All thanks to
You know who
And his nothing backed up
Crocked and cracked up
Self imploding, overloading
Complete collapsing and exploding
Kamikaze self destructing
Booby trapped and self corrupting
Krazy Kami Kwasi Karteng
See his car now fast departing
Krazy Kami Kwasi Kancellor
Yet another now ex-chancellor
Thought it was his calculator…

Instead it’s Truss’s Terminator
And Chancellor Regenerator

Poem 975
Saturday 15th October 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 22 - 03:42 PM

Starmer is of course using the present situation to attack the Conservatives. As leader of the opposition it’d be odd if he didn’t. The bit that’s missing though, is what he and Labour would do if they were to find themselves in government. I guarantee it’d be a total fiasco!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 22 - 04:02 PM

Speculation, Bonzo, while the current disaster is an indisputable fact. First rule of any fiscal policy - don't borrow money to pay for tax cuts. You, as an accountant, should know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 06:02 AM

From Graham Bragg on FarceBook…

”Kwasi was a bad boy,
Chancellor no more,
He frowned upon the logic,
That 2 plus 2 is 4.

To cling onto position,
In desperation, Truss,
Threw the hapless Kwarteng,
Underneath the bus.

She thought she'd do a sidestep,
And not share in the blame,
But if a duck's no leg to stand on,
It's definitely lame.

Looking for a patsy,
To offload with the brunt,
Both the task and her solution,
Was a hopeless Hunt.

Lizzy is a bad girl,
She's shown she can't adjust,
Like an oven-ready turkey,
She's well and truly.... Trussed.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 06:30 AM

Fucking stupid lefty wankery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 06:49 AM

Good reasoned argument from as usual :-D Take a look at the link I posted for you on the other thread, Bonzo, it may help with your blood pressure too :-) Seriously though - It may help your Mrs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 07:02 AM

Dave, Bonzo’s reaction is exactly what you’d expect from a fool who’s allowed himself to be duped by Tory propaganda, who’s supported the Party of the Greedy and Selfish vociferously here and, presumably, elsewhere, and now realised that the Tories have fucked themselves right royally and are engaged in a last-ditch wealth-grab to benefit themselves and their already-immensely-wealthy, mostly non-dom, controllers.

Serves the twat, and other twats like him, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 08:29 AM

Tell me how Starmer and company would go about solving all this, because the Tories have never been able to solve the catastrophic mess left by Labour in 2010!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 09:37 AM

Why is it that tories are so stupid that they still think that Lehman Brothers are/were owned by the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 09:40 AM

Bearing in mind that truss stood on and was imposed on us by the tory party on a platform of massive tax cuts, where does her mandate come from?

Typical tories - they lie to the public, they lie to royalty, and now they lie to their own party just to get power for its own sake.

They need to be congratulated for the amazing growth they have achieved.

Growth in mortgage interest rates, growth in inflation growth in child poverty, growth in hospital and GP waiting times, growth in A&E admission times, growth in food bank usage growth in number of people in work in need of state benefit support, growth in the number of people from outside of the UK denied the right to work in areas of labour shortages in essential services, growth in demonisation of people who wish to come to UK to seek refuge, growth in the number of worker days lost to industrial action, growth in the number of pubic transport cancellations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 11:02 AM

"because the Tories have never been able to solve the catastrophic mess left by Labour in 2010!!!!!"

Doesn't say very much for the conservative party that after 12 years not one of them has had the gumption to sort out the "mess" left by the Labour Party.

I mean what sort of idiot would vote a party into power if they couldn't sort out a problem in that amount of time.

I presume (accordong to Bonzo's logic) that when inflation fell to less than 1% in 2015 it must have been a fluke chance

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 22 - 12:42 PM

”Tell me how Starmer and company would go about solving all this, because the Tories have never been able to solve the catastrophic mess left by Labour in 2010!!!!!”

Once again, exactly the reaction to be expected from a fool who’s allowed himself to be duped by Tory propaganda,

What were you on in 2008? The world-wide financial crash, caused by the profligacy and recklessness of the bankers here, in the US, and in other major world economies, seems to have completely passed you by. Must have been some good shit you were snorting…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 22 - 07:28 AM

Ya know Backwoodsguy, thats not as crazy as it sounds. The Trump States in America had the biggest opioid addictions. They changed the formula because people snorted the stuff. Pre WWII Germany also had their chapter of public opioid addiction.

The UK has an opioid problem? Say it ain't so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 22 - 08:12 AM

It could well be argued that a major contributor to the banking crisis in 2008 (caused largely by irresponsible bankers) was initiated a couple of decades earlier by Thatcher (in this country - I'll look up Reagan's role later) and her idiotic chancellor Nigel Lawson when they deregulated the banks and gave free rein to the yahoos in the City who were interested in nothing other than enriching themselves overnight. That was bound to go bang eventually, and no kudos whatsoever to Blair and Brown for letting it run, by the way. However, a reminder to Bonzo that the Tories inherited a schools system and an NHS in pretty good shape in 2010. Mrs Steve got her cataracts done well within the 18-week time limit for waiting, and I got my back operation done and dusted within eight weeks of first presenting to my GP. The surgeon told me that people often asked him if they could go private, but he always told them not to bother because the NHS would be just as quick and they'd still get him. Ditto my bad shoulder rotator cuff. Happy days, eh, Bonzo? Now tell us how your lot have improved on that "mess"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 22 - 12:00 PM

”The UK has an opioid problem? Say it ain't so.”

Watch the YT videos of the behaviour of our recently-fired Chancellor, Krazy Kwarteng, at the funeral of the Queen, and tell me he hadn’t been toking/snorting/shooting-up…or maybe he was just rat-arsed?

https://youtu.be/ioGhKmWVhMU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 22 - 01:33 PM

Like Oliver Reed on Parkie - Tired and over emotional :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 22 - 06:41 AM

I've just seen Jeremy *unt described as "the power behind the drone." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Oct 22 - 07:10 AM

So it appears that Boris may return to power....... when Truss goes!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 05:52 AM

A great below-the-line post in today's Guardian:


State of the NHS in May 2010.

Waiting times.

Median waiting time for inpatient was 8.9weeks.

Median waiting time for out patients 4.1 weeks.

Outatients waiting longer than 18 weeks fell from 23% in2007 to 2.5% by May 2010.

Inpatients waiting longer than 18 weeks 52% in2007 to 10% in May 2010.

In 2010 2.5million people were waiting for treatment within the NHS.

A&E waiting times were such that only 5% of admissions waited longer than 4hrs in 2010.

There were 152,000 hospital beds in the NHS in2010.

State of the NHS in 2019

4.9 million people on nhs waiting lists.

22% of people now waiting more than 18 weeks for treatment.

There are now 140,000 hospital beds in the NHS.

In 2019 a peak of 25% of people waiting more than 4hrs in A&E was achieved.

Few things.

I've chosen 2019 because it was pre-pandemic and so un-sullied by covid. Unfortunately every one of those measures has only got substantially worse.

It's proven really quite difficult to find separate median inpatient and out patients data for 2019 unlike 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 12:03 PM

"I guarantee it’d be a total fiasco!!!"

It is already a total fiasco, Bonzo. I cannot ever remember seeing any previous Government acting in such a shambolic way. Recently the tories seem to be trying to outdo each in fucking things up.

It will not be easy for the next government to sort out, whichever party it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 12:28 PM

Another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust.


For our America cousins Suella Braverman who was the Foreign Secretary has resigned.

Given that this is a senior position, as is the Chancellor of the Exchequer who resigned last week, it is a significant blow for the Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 03:33 PM

Is it true that Suella's real name is Sue Ellen, named after the "heroine" in Dallas? I think it is! Anyway, byebye for now to that particular thick neofascist...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 03:54 PM

Did she shoot JR?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 04:38 PM

For our America cousins Suella Braverman who was the Foreign Secretary has resigned.

Suella Braverman was Home Secretary, not Foreign Secretary.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 04:49 PM

Grant Shapps is the new Home Secretary, allegedly. So I guess he’ll be ironing his posing flag and dusting off his red box ready for use as scene-setting props for TV interviews. He’ll still be talking utter bollocks though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 05:16 PM

I am surprised that no one has picked me up on my obvious error.

In my haste to post I said that Braverman was Foreign Secretary not Home Secretary as she was.

There are rumours that Truss's chief whip and deputy are also about to resign. It would seem that her position in untenable.

There is also a rumour that a revolving door is to be fitted to 10 Downing Street ...............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 05:16 PM

No. Just trying to be helpful. Take it or leave it but remember the offer was there when the inevitable happens elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 05:19 PM

Sorry Doug again in my haste I overlooked your post !! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 22 - 06:57 PM

I shouldn't worry, Raggytash. In the midst of this Tory chaos, you could easily believe that Mrs Mopp is the prime minister and that Liz Truss is a dinner lady. The only thing that's certain is that, whatever their titles, they're all shits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 03:22 AM

From 'Conservative Home' - A self described 'centre-right political blog'

The Wendy Morton hokey-cokey.

I think my favourite bit is

It has been reported that Liz Truss chased Morton through the lobbies to persuade her to stay on, thus missing the vote, and so initially being registered as having failed to support a confidence measure that she herself had called…

What a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 03:52 AM

It’s surely the death-throes of the most corrupt, rotten-to-the-core government in my lifetime, or any of our lifetimes. Wealth-grabs courtesy of Krazy Kwarteng, class-war courtesy of the vile Anne-Marie Trevelyan, etc. etc.

Even our resident Tory-apologists seem to have given up defending that bunch of greedy Tory crooks. Time they were out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 04:53 AM

Grunts Shits Home Secratary. Oh well, we can add police, court prison officers' strikes to our winter of discontent then - possibly passport control too? What happens when they walk out. We can'r close the airports - I suppose they will just have to open the gates and let everyone through without any checks!!!! That would get the racists and bigots whining, wouldn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Captain Swing
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 06:19 AM

Party politics aside, can anyone imagine Heath, MacMillan, Wilson, Callaghan etc behaving like this lot? While I wouldn't have agreed with some of them, at least they behaved with dignity. Dare I say it, even Thatcher, evil witch that she was, had some sense of dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 06:48 AM

Yes, and she forced millions into the indignity of living on the scrapheap whilst allowing spivs to enrich themselves. Very dignified.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 07:04 AM

It was The Beast of Grantham who destroyed our industrial base, drove hundreds of thousands, if not millions, into unemployment and poverty, broke families apart, and was the enabler for the ‘policies’ of current bunch of thieves and rogues.

Never forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 07:06 AM

Let us celebrate the fact that lettuce has no nutritional value and that Liz Truss has proven, once and for all, that things can always get worse. I believe Queen Liz sensed that at her last meeting with Truss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 07:11 AM

They are very holy vegetables though. I remember being in church and the priest saying "lettuce pray"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:26 AM

Going...going...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:36 AM

...GONE!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:41 AM

Thank goodness for that. Now let’s see the back of this government of rogues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:45 AM

Unfortunately, there are plenty more where she comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:55 AM

Hopefully, the fools who voted them into government in 2019 are beginning to realise the futility and stupidity of electing a party with no policies and no interest in the welfare of ordinary people, on the basis of nothing more than a three-word slogan.

A very expensive lesson (for ordinary people) to be learned there. The hugely wealthy won’t care, following Krazy Kwarteng’s gift to them of their money-grab opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 08:58 AM

Try to remember the good ol' days when you merely had a winter of discontent.
You may have a freezing winter of monsterous malcontempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 09:23 AM

The fat rat usually wins. But things they are a'changin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 09:32 AM

I propose Larry, the No.10 cat, for PM. He couldn’t do any worse than the last four…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 10:07 AM

I wonder if Truss will now qualify for the £115,000 p.a. Ex-PM’s pension? If so, it will be an absolute travesty, and an insult to every taxpayer, IMHO.

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/boris-johnson-resignation-former-pms-are-entitled-to-claim-up-to-ps115k-per-year-toward-public-duties-3416391

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 10:09 AM

Aw rats. I did warn everybody that, in the lexicon of lavatories, de Pfeffel is a persistent floater; now, just when I thought he'd got his snout into the trough in the public-speaking circuit in the States (the posh boys' gig economy), the little offender's threatening to stand in the next leadership battle.

If you think the summer of discontent was bad, and the last month was awful, you ain't seen nuttin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 10:27 AM

.... and just when the Treasury has had to wear the cost (according to earlier rumour) of replacing the gold wallpaper by padded wallpaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 10:45 AM

One of his thralls has just said that Alexander B**** de Pfeffel would "bring back grown-up politics". I'll just leave that [redacted] on the table for everyone to consider, and to complete the joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 10:53 AM

I have always admired George Takei (Sulu of Star Trek) for being an openly gay and left of centre man in the midst of the nutters over the pond but he has gone up a notch with his recent comment on Faceache -

I detect a distinct lack of Truss in the British government today

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 11:07 AM

Going out now for tea in Sheffield, then The Proclaimers gig at the City Hall. No politics, and no f***ing Tory rogues, for the next seven or eight hours…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 11:49 AM

i am guessing that they will choose MORDAUNT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 11:57 AM

We need legislation where every employee who resigns, is dismissed or fails their probationary review is automatically entitled to statutory redundancy or 25% of annual salary, whichever is the higher, also extended to self-employed contracts and freelancers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 12:20 PM

Hm: I half-remember reading (in one of the Tiffany Aching books) that certain clothing used to smell slightly of urine, as the dyers used that to "fix" the dye in the cloth. I believe the technical name for that is "mordant". Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 01:15 PM

Is Bonzo hiding under his desk, or in a kennel or even a dog house.
Cmon Bonzo you were singing the praise of Truss
here is a quote from our dog in the manger bonzo 3 legs
"I am more than pleased to welcome Liz Truss as Prime Minster. I do not think she will suffer labour fools gladly!!" Bonzo is up barking creek without a paddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Captain Swing
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 01:23 PM

Steve Shaw and Backwoodsman - Yes, I agree with both of you. If I seemed to exonerate Thatcher in any way it was certainly not intended. Mea culpa!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 03:01 PM

BwM> I propose Larry, the No.10 cat, for PM.

Larry, it turns out, has a Twitter feed, and is reported to have said:

> The King has asked me to become Prime Minister, because this nonsense
> has gone on long enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 03:11 PM

"I wonder if Truss will now qualify for the £115,000 p.a. Ex-PM’s pension? If so, it will be an absolute travesty, and an insult to every taxpayer, IMHO."

I hope she does qualify, if only to annoy the lefties!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:01 PM

Mordaunt should fix it


it's a phonetic pun

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:20 PM

Yeah, we just want those Tories to dye.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:25 PM

I suppose when your inferiors die of hypothermia due to not being able to afford to heat their homes you will be able to have a big laugh. The only thing worse than those with their snouts in the trough are the leeches who line their grubby pockets while being paid to help overbloated s***s pay as little tax as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:31 PM

Sorry folks, I shouldn't let myself get wound up by the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:43 PM

Worry not. Your passionate sentiments are always much appreciated (by me at least!).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 05:46 PM

"The only thing worse than those with their snouts in the trough are the leeches who line their grubby pockets while being paid to help overbloated s***s pay as little tax as possible."

If they are not breaking any laws then there is little wrong with that. The laws need changing but, as i have said before, neither party seems to have any intention of doing that.

Your comment is a bit like that of the tories going on about 'lefty lawyers' taking them to court over various matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 06:06 PM

You appear to be completely missing the moral dimension there, Rain Dog. It does matter, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 06:12 PM

My little sis, who was president of the NAHT a couple of years ago, has been at the TUC conference this week. I've just received a lovely photo of her with Mick Lynch. Treasurable or what!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 02:36 AM

Stolen from an Internet friend who has a lovely turn of phrase ?


"Bye then Loopy Liz aka Bullshit Betty.

Trussolini said she'd hit the ground on day one. It was the only thing she got right, and that was an accident.

In 44 days, this useless piece of tripe in a skirt, caused a financial crisis, cost the Bank of England tens of billions of pounds, increased inflation and mortgage rates and provoked a fist fight amongst her own MPs.

Ultimately, she was beaten by a lettuce, and quite convincingly.

What happens next is anyone's guess, but I suspect the Conservative Party is in a death spiral. Weird, when just a year ago, they looked untouchable.

If the UK was a small African country the army would have moved in by now."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 02:55 AM

i think the worst choice would be Johnson, whoever is elected there will not be much difference in Conservative policy
Dave whats the refernce to a lettuce about

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 03:42 AM

Here you go Dick. From Wiki

The lettuce won

Plenty of other references, some of them hilarious, if you google "Liz Truss lettuce". Liz the Lettuce beamed onto parliament is one of the funniest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 04:00 AM

"I've just received a lovely photo of her with Mick Lynch. Treasurable or what!"

Did she tell him that she has a brother who posts to a thread where a majority, though still only a handful, thinks that people like him are thick, brainwashed, racist twats?

I did think of mentioning that when I was on a march in support of the sacked P & O workers (remember them?).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 04:32 AM

WE shall celebrate if Johnson returns to number 10!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:04 AM

Really Bonzo? I thought that you were a Hilary Benn fan.

What is this 'we' that you speak of?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:18 AM

Well I hope she mentioned me, but the rest of your post is balderdash. For a start, I haven't heard anything like a majority of posters here referring to him as racist. And in August of last year Mick promoted a "Respect" poster as part of the fight against racism, with an accompanying message:


TO: THE SECRETARY
ALL BRANCHES AND REGIONAL COUNCILS


Dear Colleague,

COMBATTING RACISM IN THE WORKPLACE – RESPECT POSTER

As part of the union’s on-going fight against racism, in liaison with the union’s Black and Ethnic Minority Members’ Advisory Committee, the attached poster has been produced for general distribution. The message of “respect” continues to remain key in the fight not only against racism but all forms of discrimination and harassment.

I would be most grateful if you could please bring the contents of this circular to the attention of your members.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Lynch

General Secretary.

You can see this letter, and the poster, on the RMT website.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:24 AM

But he was and still is,as far as I know, a supporter of Brexit. I think that people who read this thread will be well aware of how a handful of posters regard Brexit supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:26 AM

For a couple of years I've been expressing my view that Starmer is a born loser. Over the last few interesting weeks I've been mulling over whether I should publicly eat my words, but I have a horrible feeling that that would be premature. The talk is of Boris Johnson making a comeback. It seems that he easily has enough MPs behind him to get on to the shortlist. I have no doubt that members would then vote him in. In that eventuality, I'm confident that he would win the next general election.

Just call me a glass half-empty bloke. I don't mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:29 AM

So you think that all brexiteers are racists! Gosh...

If you have a thing about trade unions "disrupting" the public, etc., let's be having your considered views on that. Otherwise, it's best to avoid lazy slurs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:43 AM

No I don't think that all those who voted for Brexit are racist, unlike some others who post here who appear to. I am quite used to the fact that not everyone is going to hold the same views that I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:56 AM

If you could direct me to any post here, apart from yours, that refers to Mick or people like him (?), as thick, brainwashed, racist twats, I'd be very grateful. Otherwise, your slur holds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 08:14 AM

I really don't know who has posted on here that they believe all those who voted for Brexit are racist. I for one have often said that those who voted leave were severely misled by the media and politicians in favour of leaving. The race card was played by Farage and his cronies, particulary with the poster of hoards of dark sninned people waiting to come here. I have no doubt that racism played a part and, as the result was so close, it may have tipped the balance. Aside from that I have never said anything remotely like "all those who voted for Brexit are racist". Nor have I seen anyone else say it. Your statement is a classic straw man argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 08:40 AM

What is this 'we' that you speak of?

Mrs Bonzo and myself of course

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 09:45 AM

not all racist. some were very wealthy. all were misled. all were happy to believe excuses for their racism. all guilty of damaging our country and all of us in it because they couldn't be arsed to think it through. perhaps now is the time for a total rethink in what it may be like to live in a modern progressive wealthy country, but first we will have to beg to be admitted to the EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 10:06 AM

Not beg, I was excluded from the EU against my will, but DEMAND immediate, unconditional and full reinstatement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 10:13 AM

The problem with johnson is it will never accept scrutiny, and any questioning will just result in bombastic, irrelevant lies, with no mechanism in parliament for these to be called out. All opposition can do is raise the questions at PMQs and present viable alternative policies and avoid eating bacon sandwiches.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 10:25 AM

it seems like forever that the morning news has been the same - a tory mouth will take his/her turn to make lies and excuses for their most recent crimes and stupidities. it's just depressing and wearying. we (sentient uk citizens) can only assume that people who still continue to support this are really very angry with the rest of us and enjoy seeing us punished (remainer tears?) Fair enough but is this really the most important thing in your political assessment, your country? you idiots

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 10:32 AM

Johnson has failed once, but the British seem to love people who fail, Lord Franklin,Lord Cardigan, The Young Pretender, The Old Pretender, Scott OF The Antartic, Eddie The Eagle, The Great Train Robbers.Donald Crowhurst,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 11:34 AM

I wouldn't say the Great Train Robbers were entirely losers: the bulk of the money was never recovered, and there's one or two people who were never identified, let alone brought to justice. Alexander B**** de Pfeffel, and the crowd of incompetents he was careful to surround himself with, are more like the robbers in The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery, except that they're playing with real peoples' lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 12:31 PM

Fair comment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 12:48 PM

I would like to see a general election and a change of government. I think the most competent people to lead the Tories is possibly Sunak, I do not know much about Mordaunt

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 01:06 PM

So this would be Sunak, whose wife is in possession of utterly unearned £800 million and who was a untaxed non-dom until she got sussed? That Sunak?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 01:11 PM

Good for her!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 22 - 05:17 PM

Yes, that is the one. I would prefer a general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 01:19 AM

A very good piece from Marina Hyde in Friday’s Guardian. It’s become apparent that the Tories are desperate to retain power in the face of the crisis they’ve inherited from themselves, but are they truly so insane as to bring back a serially-lying, morally-bereft degenerate as their leader and our PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 01:52 AM

I have come to the conclusion that quite a large majority of the British public see politicians as people on those dreadful 'reality shows' on TV. They will choose a candidate who is 'funny', 'bumbling', 'dishy', 'woefully inadequate' etc. (I don't myself watch these ghastly programmes, but I'm thinking of 'I'm A Celebrity', 'Strictly Come Dancing' etc.) People don't generally see that looks and personality aren't as important as competence, integrity, political experience and effectiveness, regard for the needy not the rich and so on.
If a General Election is called, I will vote Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 03:16 AM

I was always surprised that you voted Tory before, Sen. You are obviously a person that cares about other people and I just could not understand why you would support the party of greed and selfishness. I guess if there is one thing this rabble has done, it is show people what they really are. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 03:25 AM

Thank you Dave. My parents always voted for Labour, until they 'went up in the world' (father became manager for the GPO and covered the whole of West London, including Kensington Palace (interview with the late Princess Margaret about her telephone security!) so they became a bit 'posh' and changed their political leanings. I followed them and have voted Tory for donkey's years. But this latest fiasco, as you say, has shown the voters their true colours, and I bet I'm not the only one in this country who would now vote Labour instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 03:31 AM

Bonzo, as a Conservative party member who will you vote for if you as a member are allowed to vote, By the way annoying lefties is deliberately trolling.
if conservative party members are not allowed to vote, it would appear that they cannot be trusted by the 1922 committee and the Tory es6tablishment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 04:36 AM

I am not a Conservative party member, whatever gave you that idea? However, Mrs Bonzo is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 05:13 AM

so who do you favour as your new leader and who does her in the doghouse favour. i am not a supporter of the conservatives, but since i know little about Ms Mordaunt, i would have thought the most competent person was Sunak, but bonzo you are probably better acquainted with the candidates

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 05:27 AM

I don't want any of those scumbags. As far as I'm concerned, they have forfeited every shred of authority for running this country. If their upcoming new leader had any integrity, which they won't have, they would call an election immediately. They won't, because hundreds of Tory MPs would be down the job centre by Christmas if they did. The first priorities for any Tory are survival of the party and their individual wealth-grabbing at all costs. The interests of the country come a very poor second.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 05:53 AM

The first priorities for any Tory are survival of the party and their individual wealth-grabbing at all costs. The interests of the country come a very poor second.

The first priorities for any Tory politician are survival of themselves and the party ............ at all costs. The interests of the country come a very poor second.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 06:24 AM

Surely they will not call an election until as many MPs as possible get the chance to resign from a ministerial appointment - 3 months easy money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 06:41 AM

There are degrees, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 08:05 AM

I do not want any of them either ,that is not the point,but since they will not call an election who is the one that is likely to do the least damage or alternatively lose the next election .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 22 - 10:48 AM

They will all do damage. They don't have the interests of ordinary people at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 Oct 22 - 06:00 PM

while i'm pleased that johnson is not going for the top job, no doubt he will continue to make the story all about him. Again, good news - though obviously it's bad form to knock a party when it's down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Oct 22 - 06:10 PM

One down: Alexander B**** de Pfeffel has withdrawn from the race for No 10. Tentatively *phew*. Oh, and if you read his statement about why, remember he's a chronic liar.

.... The poor lassie announcing this on the BBC News 24 newspaper review (while they waited for the front pages to be updated) may have problems, and said so on air. For some reason, she couldn't help giggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 22 - 06:19 PM

"The former Labour leadership contender Rebecca Long-Bailey has called for Labour to drop its cautious approach to the economy and fight the next election on a radical manifesto including state ownership and a living standards contract between government and public." [source: Guardian]

Well you should see the reaction to this. Dozens of posts below the line in the Guardian, of all places, variously telling her to shut up, that she's handing the next election to the Tories, that she should be a better tactician, that she's handed the scummy tabloids a gift, etc.

Well she's hardly stretched the bounds of acceptable free speech, has she. As I've said so many times, the left in Labour have always been there and will always be there. What happened to the "broad church," fer chrissake!

Labour can't win elections while the right wing of the party will always crawl out of the woodwork with this kind of frightened bollix. Half a million of us joined Labour in those days of hope when a true left-winger and man of principle became our leader. We are still here, by and large. I don't want bloody tactics, I don't want pandering fearfully to the mass media, I don't want "pragmatism," I don't want "power at all costs."   I want a bit of principle, and I have enough faith to believe that an all-embracing Labour Party that welcomes all shades of left opinion would win through. Now that we have Sunak, it's clear to me that the unprincipled and weak Starmer is absolutely not the man. Honestly, I really want to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:06 AM

Whatever you say about Boris, he is a survivor.

Listen to history. The prospects are that with the buffo back, the silent majority, who would overwhelmingly vote him out, ie "the country" would be heading to share a disaster. More than it seems to be right now.

I recommend a siege mentality. Hoarding non-perishables. With inflation as it is - it would also save a small amount of money (think graphical triangles).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:54 AM

johnson 'a survivor'? looks to me like a heart attack waiting to happen. if he does survive he seems likely to be a declining, farcical, increasingly marginal figure - lets hope so...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 04:44 AM

> siege mentality

Already there, ol' boy. Upstairs, we have a hoard of non-perishables and medium-term perishables, on which we do careful stock rotation. Herself calls it the Brexit Stash, which shows how long ago we've been maintaining it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 08:14 AM

Steve, the Guardian is a Paper that traditionally supported the liberal Party, AND IMO it still is

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 09:08 AM

7 mins ago The Guardian says Rishi Sunak is new PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 09:39 AM

It's certain to be made official.

It's time now for the opposition parties to stop bleating about a general election. We know it would be the right thing to do, but it isn't happening. Sunak will steady the Tory ship and will, I think, see out the full term of this government. What Labour needs to do now (apart from being secretly thankful that they haven't inherited the poison chalice) is to work bloody hard on putting a genuine alternative to the British people. That does not mean doing a Blair-lite and it does not mean shutting up the left of the party. Unless I'm wrong about the timing of the next election, I feel that Starmer can't cut it and that we are doomed to another Tory term. God, I can be gloomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 01:07 PM

I do hope this puts an end to the incompetance and dishonesty. We know it will not be good for the electorate, particulary the poorest, but at least we should be able to trust that the government will no longer flout laws and play footloose with the truth

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 02:42 PM

Grr. I should have said poisoned chalice, not poison chalice! At least I got there before the pedants swooped in...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:06 PM

. . . the vessel with the pestle
No, you want the chalice, from the palace!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:09 PM

Re Ready4Rishi NOT, Gandhi (rightly) did NOT want Europeans in power in Asia (using non-violent non-cooperation against it) & I, frankly, don't want Asians in power in my country; it's our world/our U.N. that should be multicultural.

---

You are a racist. And you are toast. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:37 PM

Sunak was born in Southampton General Hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 03:46 PM

Incidentally, he's a British citizen and his parents came here from Africa. Nowt like checking your facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 04:32 PM

Do you really expect to get away with racism like that WAV? And think people will put up with it? You need help...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 04:43 PM

So, after the pink gammons and blue rinsers of the rank and file Tory membership reject a dark skinned leader, the parliamentary party reverse that decision. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 04:47 PM

This might take a few minutes - don't turn off your PC!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 05:22 PM

" I, frankly, don't want Asians in power in my country; it's our world/our U.N. that should be multicultural."

Ye gods do we really have to be subjected to this sort of racism?

There you go Bonzo.

---

Nope. He's history. Too many times he has posted his racist views. The note in the record is clear - don't let him back in again. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 22 - 06:35 PM

I mentioned Becky Long-Bailey yesterday after she made a perfectly reasonable pitch for traditional Labour values. She's on Peston tonight and has articulated again just the bold line that Labour must take from now on if we want the Tories gone. One thing's for sure (and I keep on saying it...): the left will not go away and you try to drive them out at your peril. They will always find a voice in trade union branches and local constituency Labour Party branches. Even down the pub if I'm down there. Watch and learn, Sir Keir. We belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 01:27 AM

I’m not sure KS spends much time perusing the BS-section of a little-known, ostensibly Blues-and Folk-music oriented, Internet forum! Or any of the major players in UK political life, for that matter. And I doubt that any of them, irrespective of Party-affiliation, would give a toss about what half-a-dozen old crocks arguing the same-old, same-old over and over ad nauseam think anyway. ;-)

Meanwhile, we’re stuck with the Tories and Sunak until 2024. Hopefully, though, we’ll see the back of Coffey before she has a chance to do too much damage - if ever there was a perfect example of someone promoted beyond their abilities, she’s surely it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 04:55 AM

…and isn’t it a bit ironic that someone who looks like an alcoholic and a heart-attack-waiting-to-happen should be in charge of the NHS anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 05:02 AM

Hmmm. When old crocks, whether here or down the pub, stop talking about politics, democracy stops too. I understand that Putin, for example, has promoted an ethos in Russia that completely discourages anyone from talking politics, to the extent that most people are no longer interested. I don't think that's safe. Same old, mebbe. But while we're free to do it, we should do it. Or perhaps mention of the left makes you rather uncomfortable...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 05:25 AM

"Meanwhile, we’re stuck with the Tories and Sunak until 2024"

Don't include me in your "we". The next United Kingdom general election is scheduled to be held no later than January 2025.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 06:10 AM

You with the sad eyes
It's hard to take courage
In a world full of people

The darkness inside you
Can make you feel so small
some have taken all they can bear

I see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors

So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are revealing

I see your true colors
Shining through (true colors)
I see your true colors

Your true colors
reveal your hate
Like a tantrum

This world makes you crazy
I see your true colors
Shining through

I see your true colors
shining through (some of you)
hate some colors


Mmm mm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 06:43 AM

Sunak only has 100 million dollars but his wife has way more via her father's billion dollar business in India. I'm sure he will relate to your needs ;*/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 07:47 AM

”Or perhaps mention of the left makes you rather uncomfortable...?”

Not uncomfortable at all Steve - I’m the guy who has repeatedly appealed here for all elements of the LP, no matter whether Left, Right, or Centre, to stop fighting each other, get together and co-operate, compromise where necessary, and work to serve the people who need a Labour government the most.

I’m currently enjoying a relaxed RLB making mince-meat of that cockwomble, Bim Afolami, on Politics Live.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 11:29 AM

Yep, she's good. But, instead of employing the talents of an articulate leftie such as Becky, Starmer sidelined her as soon as he could on the flimsiest of pretexts. That's what the right wing of Labour mean when they "call for unity." It means agree with me and toe the line or you're out. Even if it takes the Big Lie to get rid of an inconvenient leftie ("Corbyn is an antisemite"), they won't hesitate to do it, even if it means giving a bunch of pro-Bibi lying toads free rein.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 12:30 PM

Like you, I regretted Starmer’s sacking of Rebecca, but the truth is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here, knows the full, unvarnished truth about what went on behind closed doors at Labour HQ, or in the Leader of the Opposition’s Office in Westminster, so I try not to leap to judgment. Whatever, I’m hoping that the fact she was put up to appear on Politics Live representing the LP today is an indication of her star being in the ascendence once more. Hopefully, Starmer and his inner circle have realised that there are those on the Left of the Party, Rebecca being just one, who have much to contribute as the next GE comes closer.

And as someone who is not, has never been, and will probably never be, a member of the LP, I have no idea what Labour members actually mean when they ‘call for unity’ (and I strongly suspect that what you state above as ‘fact’ is actually nothing more than guesswork in support of the defensive position you’ve taken over the Left’s failure to gain real and permanent traction in the Party in recent times).

However, what I do know after fifty years of working in senior management in Engineering, Mining, Shipping, and Plastics Processing, are the true meanings of the words ‘co-operate’, ‘compromise’, and ‘unity’, and when I use them in regard to the LP, I mean them in precisely their true meaning - nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not in the skewed sense of the words you always seem to infer whenever this issue is raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 01:02 PM

From an interesting small newsletter called Wall Street on Parade a look at the new UK Prime Minister:

A Former Goldman Sachs/Hedge Fund Guy Is the New U.K. Prime Minister

The newly installed U.K. Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, (the third PM in seven weeks) has scrubbed his Goldman Sachs and hedge fund career from his LinkedIn profile and from his official government bio. But, unfortunately for Sunak, those careers have been assiduously chronicled in countless newspaper articles for more than a decade – and not in a good way.

Sunak worked as a junior analyst at Goldman Sachs from 2001 to 2004, where part of his research involved railways. He left Goldman to obtain his MBA at Stanford University, following which he joined TCI hedge fund in 2006 as a partner and worked there until 2009, when he left to co-found the hedge fund, Theleme Partners with Patrick Degorce. Sunak worked at Theleme Partners until 2014, when he moved into conservative politics in the U.K. That’s a total of 13 years involvement in financial markets that Sunak wants to obliterate from his work history.

The rest is at the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 01:07 PM

It isn't a question of the left trying to gain traction. To me, the Labour Party, which, in case you've forgotten, sprang out of the trade union movement, is the natural home of left-wingers, or real socialists if you like. But I don't want a party of just lefties, nor do I want undue traction. What I don't want is Tory-lites such as Blair and Starmer telling lefties where to get off and trying to make Labour "a party of the narrow middle ground." I like the notion of the broad church. As I said, the left are not just going to go away because Starmer et al bully them out of the party. By the way, it was plain for all to see what was going on with the harassment and eventual expulsion of Corbyn, and it was plain to see how a trivial throwaway remark from Becky was the pathetic excuse to demote her. Principles don't come into it, but running scared of the Daily Mail definitely does. He's a follower, not the fearless leader we sorely need.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 01:17 PM

there seems to be a lot that is very murky in sunak's financial dealings, he seems like quite a ruthless operator in some contrast to his rather well-mannered, youthful even kindly manner - his adolescent wrists remind me of the very young Peter Capaldi's character in Local Hero rather than the bully in The Thick of It. However, his reappointment of Suella Braverman tells us exactly what he's about

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 03:22 PM

The Shadows, greatest instrumental band of all time, play Theme from Local Hero !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 03:48 PM

Nowhere near as good as Mark Knopfler's original Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 03:56 PM

In what way?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 04:22 PM

Agreed, Pete. I have zero respect for Sunak. Knowing that he's contemplating Braverman means I now have even less (is that even possible?). Soft faces, hard cases, hit you with their deadly smile...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 04:34 PM

He’s made Sue-Ellen (allegedly her real name, she reportedly adopted ‘Suella’ to avoid the obvious connection with ‘Dallas’) Home Secretary. So she’s back in the job she baled out of only recently.

Wonder what’s happened to Coffey?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 04:59 PM

She's still there. The fat alkie is now environment secretary. This guy hasn't got a bloody clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 05:01 PM

Jeeeeee-zus wept!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 05:11 PM

And Gove the Lying Scottish Viper is the Levelling-up Secretary. This would be the Michael Gove who gloated that ”The happy south stamps over the cruel, dirty toothless face of the northerner.”

What was that bollocks they’ve been spouting about ‘Compassionate Conservatism”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 05:36 PM

shadows? local hero? no, it was mark knopfler and pretty good too. i don't really understand your last post but i assume it's totally unnecessary, cruel and racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 22 - 06:23 PM

The out-of-touch Sunak has shat in his own bed by appointing divisive and incompetent arseholes to his cabinet. Coffey, *unt, Gove, Cleverly (the most misnamed man in the world), Raab, Braverman... This clumsy attempt to "reach across the whole party" has ensured that he is now the feckless captain of a ship of fools. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 12:51 AM

Ah yes, Michael Gove back as the Minister for Levelling-up - his views on Northeners as ‘cruel, dirty, and toothless’ are well-documented. Odious little w**ker.

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/goves-comments-on-northerners-the-westminster-attitude-towards-our-region/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 01:59 AM

Oops! Double-posted (kinda)! Oh well, it can’t be stressed too strongly and too many times what a disgusting reptile - even by Tory standards - Gove is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 04:46 AM

I do agree with you there, can't stand the man - prime candidate for a one way bus trip to Beachy Head in the front seat!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 11:21 AM

Jacob Rees Mogg quit - isn't he one of the BNP folks from several years ago? Or am I thinking of someone else? Back when the Troll was stalking Mudcatters (~2009-2012) we all got a lesson on BNP and EDL, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 11:53 AM

You're thinking of someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 12:31 PM

He’s a leading-light in the ERG - the European Research Group (which is nothing of the sort, it’s a semi-secret society of wealthy EU-Haters and Tax-Dodgers, formed when the EU announced they were changing the tax laws to make offshorers pay taxes where their offshored funds were earned.

Perhaps you’re thinking of that group, Maggie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 01:53 PM

No, it was another three-named individual, I'm sure it will come to me. There's probably a similarity I'm picking up on.

Meanwhile, what does Mr. Rees Mogg's departure signify? A good thing or a bad thing, or something that can't be characterised on that simple binary? (I thought the headline about "the member for the 18th Century" was interesting.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 04:14 PM

Can you imagine the divisive and incompetent arseholes that Corbyn would have appointed to his cabinet - Abbopotty for a start !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 04:27 PM

Pure fantasy Bonzo. The sad little group of human detritus just appointed to the cabinet is fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 06:08 PM

”Can you imagine the divisive and incompetent arseholes that Corbyn would have appointed to his cabinet - Abbopotty for a start !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!“

Whataboutery. The last refuge of someone trying to defend the indefensible. Bonzo loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 06:17 PM

It may have escaped your attention Bonzo, but Jeremy Corbyn (a thoroughly decent man) has not been the leader of the Labour Party for about 18 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 02:41 AM

It's not even whataboutary, Backwoodsman, it is whatifism!

If ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 03:05 AM

Shell have just announced over 8 bilion profit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 04:34 AM

Good one, Dave! And, of course, whenever a Tory starts up with the “Think how bad it would be if Corbyn were in charge…” horse-shit (which they do with monotonous regularity) you know that they know they’re completely our of ammunition, and are unable to put forward any meaningful defence of the absolute mess their Party has got itself (and the country!) in to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 06:14 AM

this 'what if corbyn...' nonsense is easily answered with 'all you tory ministers worked with/lied for and excused the most criminal and disgraceful PM ever....' And by the way no group like Momentum or Militant ever influenced anything outside the labour party, whereas the ERG and related ruthless and nasty splinter groups have caused huge and continuous damage to the country

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 06:47 AM

The line about: “Think how bad it would be if Corbyn were in charge…” is only used (I assume) because his were the principles in the latest (2019) General Election Labour Manifesto. That makes them the general principles and positions of the opposition party (until changed).
If the Labour Party start telling us what their plans would be, if elected, then comparisons can be made with the current opposition. But such information does not seem to be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 08:05 AM

”If the Labour Party start telling us what their plans would be, if elected, then comparisons can be made with the current opposition. But such information does not seem to be forthcoming.”

Any competent businessman/woman will tell you that you don’t set out your bargaining position for your competitors to see prior to negotiations commencing. Neither should a political party set out, several years in advance of a GE, what it’s manifesto wil be, or may be, when the GE comes around. we are two years away from the next scheduled GE, and things may well have changed radically by then, warranting different policies.

The Opposition’s job is to oppose the actions of the government, not to act as the government’s advisor or unofficial ‘think-tank’. Only an idiot would give his opponents two years’ notice of his election plans. Ever heard the expression ‘Keeping your powder dry’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 08:16 AM

Pete, old horse, I'm pretty much in agreement with you, but "the most criminal and disgraceful PM ever"? Nah. No matter what over-privileged knob the Tories put into Downing Street, I think we should always remember that Desmond Tutu wanted Anthony Blair to be put on trial for war crimes. I don't think Johnson, nasty piece of work though he was, reached quite that level of venality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 08:30 AM

Comparisons between what is actually happening and what may have happened in the past or could happen in the future are pointless, Nigel. Besides which, Bonzo was trying to compare the current actual real-life cabinet with one that may or may not have been selected had Corbyn been elected. Labour policy then or now would not have told us who was going to be on the cabinet in what position anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 10:56 AM

They know, Dave. It’s nothing more than deflection and distraction, born of impotence in the face of the Tories’ self-inflicted disasters caused by their own arrogance, greed, and selfish ambition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 04:18 PM

dum de dum de dum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 04:48 PM

I wonder if we will get the same response when somebodys partner gets their welfare benefits reduced or withdrawn by this government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 05:12 PM

They'll just have to get a job won't they.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Oct 22 - 08:47 PM

vincent, i wouldn't want to excuse tony blair for anything - mostly because with his huge majorities he could really have made a difference to the way this country operates. His great achievement was in funding and running public services well but even then the ppi initiative has been a long-term headache for the nhs. iraq war a terrible decision and degrading for our country. there is little that uk governments wouldn't do to lick american arse. had we stuck with the germans and the french, and theUN approach it would possibly have done a great deal to improve our standing in europe and the rest of the progressive world. Anyway, the tories would never support peace or reason and of course the liberals would never stand on a principle. any attacks from then on Blair are complete hypocrisy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 04:34 AM

The LibDems are a bunch of unprincipled, Tory-lite opportunists. The one good thing about the 2015 election was seeing them get their arses kicked by the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 11:47 AM

I see that Sunak received just shy of a cool half-million from donors to support his election campaign. Oh, and the use of a private jet. He's probably too embarrassed to go to the climate summit in case someone asks him about that jet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 03:51 PM

Steve: This is what "you see". Would you care to give reliable quotes for these claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 04:01 PM

Jeremy Corbin -

Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.
Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.
Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.
Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.
Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.
Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.
Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.
Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.
Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.
Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.
Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.
Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.
Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.
Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.
Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.
Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.
Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.
Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.
Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.
Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.
Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.
Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.
Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.
Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.
Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.
Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.
Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.
Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.
Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.
Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.
Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.
Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.
Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.
Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.
Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.
Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.
Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.
Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.
Opposed shoot to kill.
Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.
Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.
Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.
Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.
Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.
Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.
Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.
Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.
Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.
Accepted £2,800 trip to Gaza from banned Islamist organisation Interpal.
Called Ibrahim Hewitt, extremist and chair of Interpal, a “very good friend”.
Accepted two more trips from the pro-Hamas group PRC.
Speaker at conference hosted by pro-Hamas group MEMO.
Met Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh several times.
Hosted meeting with Mousa Abu Maria of banned group Islamic Jihad.
Patron of Palestine Solidarity Campaign – marches attended by Hezbollah.
Compared Israel to ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda.
Said we should not make “value judgements” about Britons who fight for ISIS.
Received endorsement from Hamas.
Attended event with Islamic extremist Suliman Gani.
Chaired Stop the War, who praised “internationalism and solidarity” of ISIS.
Praised Raed Salah, who was jailed for inciting violence in Israel.
Signed letter defending jihadist advocacy group Cage.
Met Dyab Jahjah, who praised the killing of British soldiers.
Shared platform with representative of extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Compared ISIS to US military in interview on Russia Today.
Opposed proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir.
Attended conference which called on Iraqis to kill British soldiers.
Attended Al-Quds Day demonstration in support of destruction of Israel.
Supported Hamas and ISIS-linked Viva Palestina group.
Attended protest with Islamic extremist Moazzam Begg.
Made the “case for Iran” at event hosted by Khomeinist group.
Photographed smiling with Azzam Tamimi, who backed suicide bombings.
Photographed with Abdel Atwan, who sympathised with attacks on US troops.
Said Hamas should “have tea with the Queen”.
Attended ‘Meet the Resistance’ event with Hezbollah MP Hussein El Haj.
Attended event with Haifa Zangana, who praised Palestinian “mujahideen”.
Defended the infamous anti-Semitic Hamas supporter Stephen Sizer.
Attended event with pro-Hamas and Hezbollah group Naturei Karta.
Backed Holocaust denying anti-Zionist extremist Paul Eisen.
Photographed with Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb, later jailed for terror offences.
Mocked “anti-terror hysteria” while opposing powers for security services.
Named on speakers list for conference with Hamas sympathiser Ismail Patel.
Criticised drone strike that killed Jihadi John.
Said the 7/7 bombers had been denied “hope and opportunity”.
Said 9/11 was “manipulated” to make it look like bin Laden was responsible.
Failed to unequivocally condemn the 9/11 attacks.
Called Columbian terror group M-19 “comrades”.
Blamed beheading of Alan Henning on Britain.
Gave speech in support of Gaddafi regime.
Signed EDM spinning for Slobodan Milosevic.
Blamed Tunisia terror attack on “austerity”.
Voted against banning support for the IRA.
Voted against the Prevention of Terrorism Act three times during the Troubles.
Voted against emergency counter-terror laws after 9/11.
Voted against stricter punishments for being a member of a terror group.
Voted against criminalising the encouragement of terrorism.
Voted against banning al-Qaeda.
Voted against outlawing the glorification of terror.
Voted against control orders.
Voted against increased funding for the security services to combat terrorism.
Quite something when you put it all down in one place…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 05:01 PM

Bollocks, Bonzo. You read the Daily Mail far too much.

Just read the Guardian, Nigel. I know it might hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 06:01 PM

All completely irrelevant, Bonzo. It may have escaped your attention, but Corbyn hasn’t been the Leader of the Labour Party since April 2020, and had the Labour Whip withdrawn in the same year.

You really do need to try much, much harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 22 - 06:58 PM

So Boris is contemplating undermining Sunak by going to Cop27. Heheh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:26 AM

"You really do need to try much, much harder."

I don't need to try at all, I'm alright jack if it's all the same to you!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:58 AM

Aaaahh, “I’m alright Jack”. Exactly what one would expect from a Tory. Back under your rock, reptile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 08:43 AM

I'm very alright, because I still work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 09:10 AM

Doesn't say much for your financial management Bonzo if you still have to work when your in your 70's even when the government are giving "hand-outs" as you would call them into your household.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 09:49 AM

I’m alright - very alright - and I haven’t worked since 2012, I haven’t needed to. Still paying a lot of tax on my pensions though. No ‘handouts’ in our house, just the pensions I’m entitled to as a result of working and paying taxes for fifty years, the pension I saved for, and Mrs. Backwoodsperson’s not-inconsiderable salary.

Hey-ho, it’s a grand life!

Oh shit, I’m starting to sound a bit Toryfied…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 10:54 AM

I work to pay for Mrs Bonzo's private medical insurance, if it's all the same to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 01:40 PM

I was recently accused of being a remoaner on Faceache. I am quite proud if that sobriquet but this was my response

The British public did vote for brexit even though it was as plain as the nose on your face that it would be harmful to the economy. That the referendum was won fair and square is not in question and I will always agree it was the wish of the majority that bothered to vote. Trouble is that no-one will now admit that they were conned by liars and Charlatans as they would rather blame someone else. Which is why we now have the political chaos we are seeing. No one will admit that they were wrong so it becomes impossible to put right. The fact that I could always see it was wrong leaves me open to accusations of "remoaning" and that I want to, somehow, subvert the outcome of a fair vote. Well, it was also a fair vote in 2019 but I will do all I can to change the fairly elected government as soon as possible. The only difference between that and 2016 seems to be that we are lumbered with the decision to leave the EU forever and to question that makes me an insurgent and traitor :-( Long rant over. Thanks for reading :-)

I doubt that it will shut the accuser up but I think it sums up my views :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 06:12 PM

Well said Dave. Right on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:26 PM

The British public did vote for brexit even though it was as plain as the nose on your face that it would be harmful to the economy.

"As plain as the nose on your face".
Pre the vote we were told that the pound would 'tank' that there would be an immediate 'black hole' in the economy of £60k, that unemployment would go through the roof.
None of these happened.
'Project fear" totally failed.

I, for one, don't believe that my voting for Brexit has been proved to be a failure. And I'm happy to say so.
Brexit was a necessary readjustment of our relationship with 'Europe'.

Whatever our current problems (exchange rate with the Dollar, inflation rate, unemployment rate) Europe (the EU bloc) have similar problems!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:46 PM

By far the most important development for the planet today was the defeat of Bolsonaro in Brazil. I've been biting my nails about that all day. But I might just afford myself a small extra tot of red (appropriate enough!) to raise a glass to Lula, dodgy geezer though he may be. Last time he was in power he did a lot of good, and he might just help to save the rainforest, unlike Bolsonaro...

Back to the Britfest. Shall we chat about Braverman or shall we get a good night's kip instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 03:40 AM

I would rather believe the economists, Nigel. You carry on believing that leaving the EU has done no economic harm if you like but the truth is, it has.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 04:53 AM

”I, for one, don't believe that my voting for Brexit has been proved to be a failure. And I'm happy to say so.
Brexit was a necessary readjustment of our relationship with 'Europe'.”

I’ll bet you believe all that S-F stuff too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:10 AM

... and, of course, Brexit has been a rip-roaring success in Northern Ireland.

Fintan O'Toole - Northern Ireland faces another pointless election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:14 AM

I’ve yet to speak to a BrexShit supporter who can give even one example of a tangible benefit felt by the general population of the UK which has been a direct result of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:47 AM

"Pre the vote we were told that the pound would 'tank"

AS is often the case with the right wing you are trying to rewrite history Nigel. The pound went from 1.32 euro to 1.20 euro overnight.

In a financial market were a rise of one quarter or one half of a cent is claimed to be soaring or plummeting I would suggest a fall of 12 cents can be said to have tanked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: weerover
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:07 AM

Scotland voted narrowly in 2014 to remain part of the UK. One of the main "selling points" of the "Better Together" campaign was that it was the only way to stay in the EU. Scotland then voted almost 2 to 1 to remain in the EU but was taken out against the will of the Scottish electorate. What is likely to happen next, I wonder?

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:30 AM

Indeed, wr. I also suspect that the north of Ireland will leave the UK although I am not sure what will happen to Wales. This April sees the removal of a layer of local government in North Yorkshire too as the seven current districts all become one. Part of the reason? Devolution! Maybe you will let us, Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland join Scotland? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 08:25 AM

”Maybe you will let us, Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland join Scotland? :-D “

…and don’t forget the Backwoods of Lincolnshire… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 12:18 PM

Let's do the job properly: the entirety of the Untied Kingdom should declare UDI from Planet Westminster, wait for the implosion, and build a decent government on the rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 12:35 PM

"His great achievement was in funding and running public services" Pete, you're clearly someone not looking to argue to win points since you mentioned the PPI, something, in my view, about as damaging to the NHS as at least two Tory governments, not to mention the removal of the Community Health Councils, so I shall take a serious look again at Blair's admin. All I can say about that, though, is the effect it had on the lives of people that I knew who were working in public services, including my missus, was not to the good.

But it still pales in comparison with what Blair's policies did to the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:00 PM

”But it still pales in comparison with what Blair's policies did to the Middle East.”

…Blair’s policies, supported by the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and despite a large-scale rebellion by Labour MPs, did to the Middle East, IIRC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:31 PM

Blair’s policies, supported by the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and despite a large-scale rebellion by Labour MPs, did to the Middle East, IIRC.

Blair only got support from the Conservatives because he lied to Parliament.
He stated that he had seen conclusive proof that there were WMDs capable of rapid deployment against the UK. Proof which, he was unable to share with Parliament!

Compared to which, Boris' confusion over exactly what constituted a party, and what was a workplace event seems negligible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:47 PM

I'm seeing a pattern here, Nigel

Brexit is damaging the economy
- It's not as bad as some people predicted

Bozzer lied to everyone
- He's not as bad as Blair

It's almost as if you have never heard that 2 wrongs don't make a right!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 03:20 PM

I can agree with you about the baleful effects of Blair as you describe them, Vincent, but the Tory administrations since 2010 have underfunded the NHS year on year, and it is now in a parlous state. I speak as an unwilling frequent "customer" of the service over that whole period. In terms of getting to see my doctor, getting referred for hospital treatment, getting that treatment (or not), waits in A&E, etc., there is no comparison between the early 2010s and now. Tell me again at the end of this winter whether you still think Blair did as much harm as two Tory administrations...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:02 PM

Nigel, as you know you have a reputation on this site of being a bit (lot) of being a pedant.

I responded to your earlier submission that there was a suggest by reminers that "the pound would 'tank'" after the vote to leave Europe had occured and according to you had not done so.

I suggested that in actual fact the pound had indeed "tanked" immediately after Brexit.

I also notice that you have failed to respond to my reply.

So, please tell me, if the pound had dropped from about 1.32 Euro to the pound to 1.20 Euro to the pound, given in mind that a change of 1/2 a cent or 1 cent is considered plummeting or soaring, what is a drop of 12 cents overnight.

I might also add that as of today I can get a mere 1.15 Euro to the pound, a consierable drop from the 1.32 Euro I could have received pre Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:07 PM

My apologies for the appalling spelling in my last post I hit submit by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 05:34 AM

Looking forward to receiving Winter Fuel Allowance + Pensioners Cost of Living allowance - tax free of course!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM

Yep, money in the bank not targeted. Enjoy it as you sidle past the food bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:05 AM

I would if I could, Steve, but I think the PPI has facilitated much of today's NHS problems: many of the contracts run for 25 years, and the opportunity costs of the billions spent on "experts" and restructuring, the increased rental charges of buildings given to or built in the public sector, the cronies putting cash from our taxes into their arse pockets at the expense of the working conditions, particularly of lower paid NHS workers, these things don't end when the government changes - but may well whet the appetites of Tory vultures for more of the same. I won't be able to answer how much of the disgraceful state of the NHS is due to whom, and I trust the Tories even less, but I think that a lot of the groundwork was courtesy of New Labour. Several friends who voted for Blair felt shafted and left the NHS, mostly nurses and one with 15 years of midwifery experience.

I agree with your view of the state of the NHS, but my father's utterly contemptible treatment in his last years - a veteran of Monte Cassino with parts of his lung left at Tossignano - was in the middle of a New Labour restructuring. So perhaps I'm biased - and I sincerely hope that you are not currently experiencing the level of care my dad received.

I'd like to think that today's Labour party would improve the NHS, but then I'd love to open the bowling for Lancashire County Cricket Club, something that I think is far more likely to happen.

And I thought I could read opinions without engaging in the polemics, but it seems I can't. Bugger. Hey, Arsenal are doing well this season, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM

PPI or PFI ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:57 AM

Raggytash.
As was pointed out many times prior to, and after, the vote, the pound was already on a downward trend to adjust for previous overpricing. The pound had already fallen from a high in 2015 of around 1.43 (up gradually from 2012/13 when it was around 1.16)

To attribute this solely to Brexit is a false premise. It was however a good excuse to finish the expected realignment swiftly.

You comment on my not responding.
By concentration on the exchange rate you are not responding to the expected a) massive black hole in the economy b) massive unemployment which were also forecast as being immediate responses to a leave vote. Do you agree that these did not occur? In which case 'project fear' was false.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 01:27 PM

Balderdash Nigel, and you know it. In a market where a change of half a cent or one cent is considered plummetting or soaring (as described by the media) a fall of 12 cents overnight is an absolute catastrophe. The pound has never recovered from that fall and does not seem likely to any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 05:13 PM

"Enjoy it as you sidle past the food bank"

No need to know they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 06:11 PM

Well I can't disagree about the baleful effects of PFI, Vincent. The cost to the NHS down the years has been enormous. As with the schools academy system, New Labour forgot to be careful what it wished for. However, the point holds that the NHS has been neglected and appallingly funded under 12 years of Tory rule. Most users of the NHS are going to be influenced in their judgement by the upfront consequences they see: terrible waiting times in A&E, inability to get a GP appointment in anything like a timely way, years instead of a few weeks on waiting lists. And just pray that you'll never need an ambulance. It wasn't anything like that in 2010, as both my missus and I can abundantly attest (unfortunately).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 02:54 AM

Nigel. I, for one, never expected the complete catastrophe forecast by some and have said as much on many occasions. Nor did I expect the sunlit uplands that many of the brexiteers were singing about. I did think it would be bad but it is showing itself to be worse than I thought. Now I have agreed that the some of the predictions made by remainers were wrong, can you tell us how far towards the promised land of milk and honey we have progressed? Or are you willing to admit that it has not been as easy as some promised. Or that we have not had people banging on our door for deals, as promised? Or that our economy is now thriving, as promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 04:45 AM

Unfortunately, or fortunately for them perhaps, the Brexshiteers and Tory supporters have been gifted a few excuses which they have used, and are continuing to use, to excuse the Tory government's abysmal performance over the past twelve years - not least being Covid (which they claim as a victory, despite the couple of hundred thousand deaths and the billions they gave away to their friends, relatives, and local pub landlords for bogus PPE contracts etc.) and now the war in Ukraine (funny, innit - they are happy to use that as an excuse for rocketing inflation, high energy costs, rising interest rates, yadda, yadda, yet when the last Labour government had to deal with the effects of a world-wide financial crash, and had to fork out hundreds of billions to rescue the Tories' mates, the Bankers, whose profligacy and recklessness had caused the crash in the first place, the Tories claimed, and are still trying to profit from their lie, that 'The Labour Party crashed the economy').

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 06:03 AM

Now thriving = not thriving

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 06:45 AM

I find a lot of remain voters persist in phrasing things as "Brexit is the cause of" X, Y or Z, which simply leads to the response "You are ignoring Covid and Ukraine".   It would help, perhaps, if the remain voters could adopt something more along the lines of "Almost every country suffered from covid and from the effects of the Ukraine war. What can be pointed to that show the UK has managed better than other places because of Brexit freedoms?"

And, by the way, 'early vaccines' is not one. What matters on vaccinations is the total number of lives saved, not the date of the earliest injection nor the number delivered. Effectiveness is what counts, not process.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 08:12 AM

Agreed, Dave, but there are things that are a direct cause of brexit. Difficulty exporting products. Companies moving from to mainland Europe to avoid the red tape. Products missing from our shops because EU companies do not want the hastle of exporting to us. Queues of Lorries on the M20. The peace in Northern Ireland being threatened. UK Artists having to cancel European tours. Need I go on?

Yes, Covid and the war in Ukraine have had their effects but that is global. It affects everyone and, as John put above, the financial crisis between 2007 and 2009 was global but the Tories still blame it on the Labour party.

I think a better question to ask brexiteers is "What tangible benefits are there to us ordinary folk as a result of brexit?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 10:46 AM

> I think a better question to ask brexiteers is "What tangible benefits
> are there to us ordinary folk as a result of brexit?"

They keep getting asked that. For what I hear every time in response, look up the definition of "duckspeak" in the Appendix of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 05:19 AM

Mark Carney confirming that brexit is a significant factor in the current crisis and that Raggy's comments about the pound crashing are correct.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63515486

Who should we believe I wonder? A former governor of the Bank of England or a Tory apologist from a folk music forum. Hmmmm. Tough one :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 08:57 AM

We have absolutely no benefits whatsoever from brexit.

Now we have complete idiots sitting on motorways blocking people from going about their daily business. I hope the time is near when motorists begin shunting this scum out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 09:05 AM

”We have absolutely no benefits whatsoever from brexit.”

Do us a favour and tell that to your fellow delusional Tory-apologist, Nitpicking Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 10:41 AM

Dave:
Should we believe Mark Carney?
Well his stance immediately prior to the Brexit vote is available in The Guardian and it is possible that, even now, he does not want to admit he was wrong.
Other views question his latest comments, as in The Spectator

So it's not a case of deciding who is more likely to be believed, me or an ex-governor of the BofE.
The above Guardian quote (of Carney) even shows that he was only claiming half the pre-vote fall in the pound was due to risks associated with a vote to leave:
The Bank noted the pound had already depreciated 9% since a November peak and that half of that was down to the “risks associated with a vote to leave the European Union”

The situation is a lot more nuanced than it at first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 11:17 AM

I don't read the Guardian. To be honest I've not read any newspaper in the last fifteen years. Before that I only got papers for the puzzles, not the political content.

From reading this forum it's clear to me that the Guardian is a left wing paper that uses partial truths to tell politically motivated lies.

So what's new? You can say that of most papers, left or right. You believe what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 12:36 PM

The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of centre is jumped upon as Communist!

Nigel. How far would the pound have dropped had it not been for brexit? Much less. So a drop in the pound due to brexit is a valid statement. You are really clutching at straws here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 01:44 PM

D the G posts

"The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of center is jumped upon as Communist!"

MSM = mainstream media?

There's something not quite right (or should I say correct ? ) with what follows. Either everything left of center will seem more centrist or current standards have moved to the right. I'm going to guess that, if MSM means mainstream media, you mean the latter of the two. I'd have to disagree.

To me mainstream media seems left of center. Especially the BBC. Not as far left as the more vociferous UK lefty posters on this forum and maybe that's the point. They are left of me and right of you. Perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:34 PM

It's ok, lads, it's April fools' day.


Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:53 PM

I had a left instead of a right! I should have said everything has moved so much to the right!

Yes, mainstream media, Stanron. Think Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times and Sun.

You really think that things have not moved in that direction? That Thatcher and subsequent tory leaders were not right of, for instance, Ted Heath? Or that Tony Blair was not right of Harold Wilson? The whole political spectrum has moved so far to the right as to give neo-nazi organisations a voice and enabled ridiculously right figures like Trump to gain power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 03:42 PM

Left right, quick quick slow!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 02:12 AM

Williamson resigned. But it shouldn’t have come to resignation, Fishy Rishi should have sacked him. This hideous Tory government really are absolutely rotten to the core.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 04:39 AM

Well fishy Rishi's very dodgy judgement, already highlighted by his appointment of the horrendous Braverman, would have been even more to the fore had he sacked Williamson. You can bet your life that he didn't half lean on him to resign instead...

When my sis was president of the NAHT, she bumped into Williamson one day in St James' Park and had a natter with him. Brick wall...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 05:11 AM

Here you go, Nigel.

Brexit home truths undeniable but not to Tories

Opinion of course but pretty compelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:02 AM

Well true enough, Steve, Fishy shouldn’t have appointed that waste of oxygen to the Cabinet in the first place, given that he already knew about the complaints against Williamson. I think we’re continuing to witness the death-throes of a government which is rotten to its core, and which has completely run out of ideas, and people of sufficient calibre to make those ideas work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:32 AM

I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:49 AM

”I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.”

Not really. I’m certain they will hang on as long as possible - probably until 2024 - in order to keep their wealth-grab alive. Any government that placed value on decency, honesty, and responsibility to the entire population would have called a GE by now, in the face of their disastrous record since 2019, but the Tories’ main interest is in enabling the enrichment of the already-immensely-wealthy, and I’m certain they will hang on to power until the bitter end in order to keep that going.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 09:44 AM

As they say in Derbyshire. Better to post in Hope than email in Clay Cross. Well, something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 12:32 PM

"Now we have complete idiots sitting on motorways blocking people from going about their daily business. I hope the time is near when motorists begin shunting this scum out of the way."

Hmm. From what I've just read about Suella Braverman's speech to the police, it looks like you're in bed with her, Bonzo.


Ooer, "in bed with Suella Braverman..." The very thought is putting me right off me tea...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM

Just think. Cruella with a whip and wearing leathers...

Pin up girl for all those working class masochists who voted for brexit and Bozzer!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:24 AM

I'm getting very low on my heating oil, and I just can't afford the price of a top-up. It's not allowed to order fewer than 500 litres, and that would cost around £460, around three times the price a couple of years ago. The Government Winter Fuel Payment hasn't yet arrived in my bank account (what a surprise!) and my letter says, "If you have not received it by January 2023, ring this number :" etc)
January? Are they bonkers? How can us pensioners wait until winter has truly set in? I'm sitting swathed in a blanket, wearing my winter coat. This rise in the cost of living is depressing me. Can't fill up my car, can't afford to put my electric oven on. Can't afford to heat the house. Council Tax has gone up. "I'm a pensioner! Get me out of here!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:32 AM

Sorry to hear that, we know what we are getting but haven't received it yet either. I was hoping to pack up work after the next tax return deadline at the end of January, but looks like I'll be carrying on. I think we've had heating on for a total of 2 hours so far!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

You voted for them, Bonz, you’ve got what you voted for so Suck It Up, sucker! I’ll bet the likes of the Rees-Moggs and Sunaks aren’t sitting huddled in blankets wondering if they dare turn the heating on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM

I voted for Them too, much to my shame. I shan't vote for Them again however. They don't care a pin for us 'oiks' and are all sitting in luxury homes warm, as toast and drinking champagne (possibly). My Irish mother would have said, "Bad cess to them!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 08:26 AM

Citizens advice has a good page for anyone struggling with energy costs at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/get-
help-paying-your-bills/grants-and-benefits-to-help-you-pay-your-
energy-bills/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 05:13 AM

That's so helpful and kind of you Dave, but my dear sister has just come to the rescue with some financial help. I'll pay her back when the Winter Fuel Payment arrives in my bank account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 07:54 PM

A report on the telly tonight about agency doctors and nurses (in other words, from the private sector) having to be hired by the NHS in desperation because there are simply not anywhere near enough NHS staff to keep our hospitals running. These workers don't fit in very well, quite understandably. Why not? Because the dedicated NHS regulars see these people being helicoptered in earning two or three times per day what they themselves earn. One cancer doctor - a cancer doctor, fer chrissake, when cancer waiting times are dangerously ballooning - told of an offer of £130 per hour for his services...

Well we taxpayers pay for these agency workers, and the agencies get paid even more on top. We taxpayers pay for the training hospitals where these agency workers were trained, and we taxpayers pay for their training. This is costing the taxpayer billions every year. It's a bloody scandal, and next time you hear a Tory saying that they "invest more than ever in the NHS", just think about where that "investment money" is actually going. The lying bastards...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:22 AM

So what is your alternative solution. Leave the hospitals short staffed so that the remaining staff are run ragged?

The NHS have been employing agency staff for years. I would rather that they did not have to do that. Some staff prefer to work that way.

There are not many easy solutions. There are no quick solutions.

Between 2014 and 2016 I spent a fair amount of time in A & E departments accompanying my mother on a number of ambulance visits, so much so I thought I might get an invite to the staff xmas party. One rare quite night while waiting for hospital transport back home for my mother, i got chatting with a nurse. I said the 12 hour shifts must be hard. She said they were and tbat is why she was agency. Work a few months then take a few weeks off before returning. Quite understandable.

Of course it is probably easier for agency staff to fit in on A & E rather than a ward of longer staying patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:48 AM

I got the dates wrong. It was between 2016 & 2018 that I spent more time than I wanted in A&E departments & general wards. I got to see a lot in my position of visitor/helper rather than a patient.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:51 AM

Rain Dog, The main point I take away is not that agency staff are used but that staff are trained by the NHS, at taxpayers expense, and then leave to take more lucrative positions before the benefit to the NHS is realised. Maybe putting a clause in any training package that you must work for the people that train you for a certain period would work? In business it is called return on investment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:54 AM

i was in hospital for a small procedure a few years ago. the senior nurse I saw was telling me that she and 2 colleagues had had their shifts for the weekend cancelled at the last minute. This happens regularly so they would travel to Newcastle and make more money doing agency shifts there. In Newcastle exactly the same was happening and 3 nurses were travelling to Cumbria. Obvious madness . We agreed that the only possible reason would be to undermine the NHS and cause chaos and confusion. Cynical tactics by the government.

Possible solution. Anyone trained by the NHS should have to work , say, 35 hours a week within the NHS. Any further work could be on overtime.

Any services provided by agency workers could be done by agency trained staff.

Of course if NHS staff had better pay and conditions then there would be fewer vacancies in the service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 04:23 AM

Dave.

I doubt that there are many staff who complete their training and then sign up for agency work right away. Peoples lives change. They start a family etc and want to work more flexible hours. I think we can all agree that it would be a shame and a huge waste of money if these people left medical/health work for good.

Like I said, I saw how hard staff worked on busy A&E departments during 12 hour shifts. Week after week of that sort of work must be hard.to cope with. I would find it hard to tell those people that they should not be able to do agency work if they so wished.

There are no easy solutions. There is certainly no quick solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:14 AM

it's a sign of how far we have fallen as a country (countries) that we have allowed our NHS treasure to fall into such disrepair. a service providing a good, prompt and caring service should be the starting point not a distant goal. staff should really have a valued and stable job, flexible when needed and properly rewarded. Private providers are just feeding off the deficiencies in the service and enriching the already rich and corrupt. In many ways, outsourcing has become normal in our public services and permitted to prosper in our free-market world. All driven by vicious, feckless politicians whose main aim is to shrink the state and further enrich the wealthy.

it isn't normal or necessary, maybe we just forget what a centre ground of politics could be. To see the relative prosperity and decency of our european neighbours is a sad reminder of what we have lost. it's what brexit was all about in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:26 AM

National Audit Office report from 2006

Improving the use of temporary nursing staff in NHS acute and foundation trusts

Makes for interesting reading.

One of these days this country might have a sensible debate about the type of health service we want and the price we are prepared to pay for it. I will not be holding my breath though.

I was not aware of NHS Professionals

From their website:

"We run the largest NHS flexible staff bank, placing highly skilled temporary workers in NHS Trusts to meet their short, medium and long-term needs. Uniquely we are owned by the Department of Health and Social Care and we therefore reinvest any surplus we make directly back into the wider healthcare economy.

Originally formed in 2001, we now have more than 50 client Trusts and over 180,000 healthcare  professionals (Bank Members) registered with us. They work flexibly to NHS-assured standards in a wide range of roles including nurses and midwives, doctors, allied health professionals, healthcare scientists, personal social services and non-clinical."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:39 AM

Thinking about this as the difference between agency work and direct employment is a bit of a distortion.

I am a member of my local GP practice's Patient-Provider Group, which is essentially a regular conversation about what we need as patients and what they do as a surgery.

My practice (and the wider consortium) is fully staffed in terms of doctors, nurses, mental health support, admin staff and so on. This is unusual but is largely because they have a policy of "we can work around that."

You need to be away during the day to collect your child from school? We can work around that.

You have a role with the General Medical Council that requires you to attend hearings in Central London but there is no regular pattern for these? We can work around that.

You want to develop an existing speciality, either within the practice or on secondment to, say, the local hospital? We can work around that.

I want to be able to work extra hours much of the time, but can't commit to always being able to? We can work around that.

The result of all of that is that providing an applicant is suitable for other reasons, they can be offered the job. The hours they can work are almost never a deciding factor.

That takes effort, and management, and brings some additional costs because of that. But it gets the staffing where it need be. There is no fundamental reason why other parts of the NHS could not have the same flexibility. It does not need an agency to provide that. What is does need is the willingness of the NHS management to support it.

The fees the agencies get for providing nurses are extremely high - and don't think the nurses get much beyond the NHS equivalent. The bulk goes into the agency's profits.

The biggest single thing that agency nurses get - according to my nephew's wife, who is a nurse - is a reduction in the pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:28 PM

If you have your full complement of GPs, etc., working around it is far more feasible than if you haven't. Getting your heads together and deciding to be flexible is a great ploy when you are looking over your shoulder and realising that most practices haven't got your good fortune. Having flexibility forced on you when you have been trying and failing to recruit a GP for months, and/or when exhausted practice nurses contribute to a high turnover in which new staff (if you can get them) are raw and unused to the ways of the practice, results in the danger of exhaustion and disillusionment. There's a big difference between negotiating flexible working practices in a well-staffed setup than trying to do it when staff are missing, or coming and going, or when some may have to have been selected from a lean field.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

Agreed, Steve, but I am talking about flexibility during the recruitment process itself, not just once you have the complement of staff. It is things like allowing multiple part time staff rather than a full time job.

Of course, things like living in an urban, suburban or rural area affects the number of applicants as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM

The French Interior Ministry has confirmed that a joint declaration between the UK and France will be signed tomorrow in Paris to deal with the migrant crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

What puzzles me is how do they know how many illegal immigrants there are if they entered to country illegally? It's almost as if the Daily Mail make these things up...

As to demonising them, I will quote Woody Guthrie

"You won't have a name when you ride the big aeroplane
All they will call you will be deportee"

Nothing much has changed in 74 years has it :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 05:18 PM

Sweller Braverman referred this morning to stopping illegal immigrants coming from France. Well they're not immigrants unless they actually get here first, Sweller. And if you stop them, they're not "illegal" either (they're not anyway, as a person can't be "illegal"). My word. Not only is she the spawn of the devil, she's bloody illiterate too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:12 AM

Rubbish, their method of entry is illegal because they do not arrive through normal customs and immigration process, nothing more nothing less, and we do not want them here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:15 AM

Their method of entry may be illegal but there is no such thing as an illegal human being. And do speak for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:30 AM

Simple question for you, Bonzo. If they did not arrive through the "normal customs and immigration process", how do you know how many are here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 10:34 AM

How should I know - totally irrelevant.

They are commonly known as illegals, if you don't like it tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:16 AM

"How should I know - totally irrelevant."

Au contaire Bonzo, some people like yourself rant on about "illegal immigrants" at length and with a great degree of vitriol. However you do not know if you are ranting about two, two hundred, two thousand or two million.

Before you start ranting again I would make suggest that you make a serious effort to get your facts before you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:20 AM

It is not ‘illegal’ to cross the channel by any means, including by inflatable boat, nor is it ‘illegal’ to land on a beach. It only becomes illegal if those landing on the beach attempt to evade notifying the immigration authorities of their arrival.

‘Illegal Immigrants’ is an extreme right-wing dog-whistle term, deliberately designed and used to get the simpletons and those who are hard of thinking foaming at the mouth. It obviously works, judging by recent posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:31 PM

Amnesty International article.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:54 PM

Spot on, John. And Bonzo, I'd love to hear Sweller talking about "illegals invading the south coast." Even Fishy would sack her for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

‘Sweller’? Aaaaahh, you mean Sue-Ellen Cassiana Braverman, that woman who changed her real name from Sue-Ellen in order to avoid comparisons with ‘Dallas’!

‘Cruella’ is far more appropriate, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:21 PM

Sue-Ellen Braverman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Illegal only in the minds of those thick enough to fall for dog-whistles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Her mum and dad actually named her after Sue-Ellen Ewing in Dallas. She was another sad case if I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:36 PM

Correct Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 02:38 PM

So you don't know how many people have avoided the correct procedures then, Bonzo. You and your mentors in the right wing press can only guess yet based on this guess you demonise all migrants to this country. My Dad was a migrant in 1945. Perhaps I should go back to Poland as I do not fit in with your idea of true Brits. Who will be your scapegoats when you have sent us all back? Jews? Gays? The disabled?

And, yes, I would support the rights of people wishing to travel to Qater regardless of their race, religion or sexual orientation. Although why anyone would want to go there is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 03:41 PM

Bonzo, please cut the racist crap. If you are going to use terms like invade, then people coming to UK to seek asylum should at least be issued with firearms so they can invade properly. Your language is totally contemptuous. Consider yourself lucky you have never lived in a country that has been invaded. My partner is Czech; her mother lived through the German in 1939, and she was 4 years old in 1968 when Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Soviet Union. If you had lived in mainland Europe during WW2, you might have at least learned a bit of humility. Even better, just stop posting. Nobody will miss you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 02:14 PM

Bonzo is BONK!O for a while, to see if that gets his attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 04:01 AM

Any guesses for what the autumn statement will hold?

One report is that the 45% tax limit will be lowered and the windfall tax on power companies will be increased. That would be good if true but I suspect most money will be saved by screwing over benefits claims and the NHS yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:03 AM

Only a couple of hours to wait until we find out. Then we will have speculation about if all of it will be passed as intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 12:11 PM

A comment from a Guardian below-the-line on the *unt statement:

"(The) problem is that Reeves and Starmer are the wooden cheeks of the same policy-less arse - Tory shit peddler he may be, but Hunt, sad to say, is no worse than the dross on the opposite bench"

I couldn't agree more (and I'm still a party member...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 01:49 PM

No mention, in *unt’s ‘Autumn Statement’ today, of the 23% increase in vehicle fuel duty which is to come into effect next March. 12p per litre on petrol and diesel. So the poorest in society will be hit again, and getting to those minimum-wage jobs will be even more expensive.

What was that joke about ‘Caring Conservatives’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 01:54 PM

…also not mentioned in *unt’s speech was the fact that the tax surcharge on banks’ profits will be cut from 8% to 3% next year.

Old Osborne’s “We’re all in it together” sounds hollower and hollower, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 03:10 PM

The freeze on tax thresholds is nothing short of criminal. In times of high inflation and a cost of surviving crisis, that simply drags people at the very bottom of the earnings scale into paying tax. Toryism writ bloody large.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:24 PM

"Electric car owners to pay road tax from 2025, Jeremy Hunt announces."

Need to check your attics for any scalextric cars you still have. Probably best to sell them before they become liable to tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 09:50 AM

Here is the new Brexit & other UK political topics thread. This iteration is closed but the discussion continues on the new thread to save loading this long one from Mudcat's server.