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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

punkfolkrocker 19 Oct 21 - 05:54 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 21 - 05:47 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 21 - 05:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM
DMcG 19 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM
Rain Dog 19 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 04:19 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 21 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 21 - 02:42 PM
Rain Dog 19 Oct 21 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 12:38 PM
The Sandman 19 Oct 21 - 12:11 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 21 - 12:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 11:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 04:47 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 21 - 04:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 21 - 03:33 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 21 - 02:22 AM
The Sandman 18 Oct 21 - 04:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM
Rain Dog 18 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Oct 21 - 11:21 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 21 - 10:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 21 - 07:40 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 21 - 07:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 21 - 05:59 AM
Rain Dog 18 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM
Rain Dog 18 Oct 21 - 05:14 AM
Rain Dog 18 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 21 - 04:25 AM
Rain Dog 18 Oct 21 - 04:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 21 - 08:58 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 07:21 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 21 - 07:16 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 17 Oct 21 - 04:38 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Oct 21 - 11:37 AM
peteglasgow 17 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 08:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 21 - 08:06 AM
Mr Red 17 Oct 21 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 21 - 07:39 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:54 PM

Adopt a pig..

British families should be offered govt grants to provide emergency long term accomodation
to unwanted surplus pigs.

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer,
and should be housed and brought up in families with true British values.

I'll take two to begin with, we only have a small freezer... ermm.. back yard...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:47 PM

The Leave voters didn’t have a clue what they were voting for, because the Leave Campaign was based on nothing more than Populist, anti-EU, racist propaganda, gaslighting, and dog-whistling. No real plan was set out by them, because no real plan existed. Remember the “Oh fuck! What do we do now?” look on Johnson’s face when he emerged, she’ll-shocked, from his house the morning after the day of the Referendum?

The Remain voters voted for the known, factual status-quo. The Leave voters voted for little more than a hope. Stupid is as stupid does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:43 PM

The Leave voters didn’t have a clue what they were voting for, because the Leave Campaign was based on nothing more than Populist, anti-EU, racist propaganda, gaslighting, and dog-whistling. No real plan was set out by them, because no real plan existed.

The Remain voters voted for the known, factual status-quo. The Leave voters voted for little more than a hope. Stupid is as stupid does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM

No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

That is spot on Rain Dog. I have likened it to someone moving house without knowing where they were going. Imagine being dissatisfied with your house and leaving it without any plans for your new one. That is just what these people have agreed to. I can appreciate them being dissatisfied with Europe. But why anyone would agree to a leap in the dark based on assurances by conman and shysters is still beyond me :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week 

That could be good. However, I wonder if they were balanced, or all "Leave" meetings. Without the balance, it is not really all that clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Kate Morgan (a pig farmer)

"Yes, I did vote for Brexit but I can assure everyone that is listening that I did not vote for this. I voted for people to be more patriotic, I voted for the government to look after us and to put border controls in.

“There were a number of things I voted on, I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week – and I was very educated in my vote. I respect other peoples’ vote and they should respect my vote.”

++

That just about sums things up. She voted for Brexit but had little or no idea what that would entail. No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

"and I was very educated in my vote."

I think not.

Let's hope there is no shortage of pigs in blankets this coming christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:19 PM

OK Dick. Sort of like a joke but without the funny bit then?

Maybe something like she should stop squealing would be better? Or a reference to people telling porkies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

"Video shows Range Rover pushing Insulate Britain activist at sit-in".

A Guardian item to google. Anyone like to try to justify it? Several people around here did seem to be on the motorists' side, keen to call the protesters names, I seem to recall...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:45 PM

well dave, it was in relation to the pig farmer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:42 PM

Well Mr Kirkup is nothing if not neutral...


Bwahahaha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:55 PM

Couple of book reviews which i read in the last couple of days.

Beyond a Fringe:Tales from a Reformed Establishment Lackey by Andrew Mitchell

Reviewed by Andrew Rawnsley in The Observer

Always Red by Len McCluskey

Reviewed by James Kirkup on Unherd.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:38 PM

What on earth are you on about, Dick?

I saw a cracking description of Brexit today - The longest and most painful told you so in history :-)

Also interesting to see Tim Martin (Wezterspoons) is moaning about lack of staff. Karma?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:11 PM

pigmy takes on a new form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:00 PM

I've got heaps of sympathy for her pigs and I hope it works out for her. But if it doesn't I won't be shedding any tears for her. She can go to blazes, along with all the other stupid farmers who voted leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:47 AM

I didn't vote for this...

Oh yes you did!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:47 AM

Yep. It's going nowhere but as I pointed out in my link on 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM, it is coming back to bite the bum of those who used the accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:34 AM

Well I could hardly have mentioned the campaign to oust Corbyn with mentioning antisemitism, could I! The campaign was the point of the post. I've now tried twice to suggest that we'd be better not resurrecting the antisemitism thang, but hey ho...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:33 AM

I can't remember if I have posted this before. Apologies if I have.

And apologies to Paul.Simon

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

Please feel free to add more :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:22 AM

”Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.”


Apologies Nigel, you’re correct, and that fact had gone straight over my head. However, I do maintain that there’s very little point, if any at all, in trying to administer CPR to a deceased nag. I do hope you agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:29 PM

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many,
quote backwoodsman
yes i do


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM

Yea, but you wont find anything about it on MSM. I wonder why that is...

I know Skwawk is a bit of a dodgy website but this news is true and from the horses mouth. Maybe Jewish Voice for Labour would have been a better choise as they carry the same story. Although they have been accused of antisemitism themselves for being the wrong type of Jews :-S


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

The same website that lost the libel case and ended up costing Unite members so much money. I doubt if they asked for their members to back that action.

Internal disputes can end up costing a party a lot of money and members.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM

Having said that we need to move on from Labour antisemitism I just got this from my friend and daughter in law's Mum, Pam Bromley

I suspect that the ones doing all the shouting about antisemitism wish it really would go away now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 11:21 AM

Raindog - yeah you should have been here last night, for the "Black Narcissus" metaphor to make proper sense...

Not that any of our culled Brit politics posts merit being evaluated
as "near perfectly constructed work of __ art"..

However, we share the frustration of not offending the sensitivities of our American allies...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, that wasn't at the heart of that post. It was about the campaign to get Corbyn out. The false antisemitism claims against him happened to be part of that, that's all. Now I've already suggested once that we could let it drop. Whaddya think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:40 AM

That’s something we do agree on Steve. I’m disappointed in Nigel for trying to revive that particular Expired Equine.

Sandman, since the tragic events of Friday, and out of respect for a murdered Member of Parliament, I have hitherto deliberately abstained from further comments on this thread, and I have no intention of getting involved in further disputes at this time.

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many, irrespective of their Party, so perhaps, instead of childish attempts to foment further disagreement here, you’d like to show the same kind of respect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM

By the way, Nigel, I can't prove that there isn't a colony of seven-legged little blue men living on the rings of Saturn either. Or even that there's no God. Even Richard Dawkins admits to the latter. What we can do is challenge for real evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:29 AM

They might well have, Nigel, but don't forget that they had an anti-Jezza agenda that was all too plain to see...

Recalling what antisemitism actually means (to me, prejudice, hatred or harm directed at Jewish people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS), look as hard as you like and you will not find a single instance of Jeremy Corbyn displaying or promoting antisemitism. Supporting the Palestinians or criticising the actions of the Israeli regime only count if you have blinkers on.

We've spent a lot of time on this in the past and I could suggest that we leave it for now. However, fire away if that's what you want...

.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:59 AM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism.
I made no insinuation, I didn't even raise the matter, you did. I merely queried your assertion that the claims against him were groundless.
Obviously debating the matter is pointless as you would never be able to prove that he wasn't anti-Semitic. I feel that those you mention, Tom Watson, and many others including several senior Labour figures, are likely to know Jeremy Corbyn's nature better than the man in the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Another point of order, Chair.

Has anyone else been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour revolution

I have watched the first two episodes. I had forgotten that the tensions between the two surfaced so early. The same might be happening again between numbers 10 and 11.

I enjoyed hearing the Mo Mowlam quote "the trouble with Tony is that he thinks he's fucking Jesus"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:14 AM

Something else that i was not aware of.

EES/ETIAS: UK must clarify effects of new EU systems, says politician.

The EU is set to introduce two new electronic travel systems by the end of 2022 that will affect people from the UK, the US and other non-EU countries.

EES/ETIAS

The link is to The Connexion. French news and views. It allows you to read 2 articles before having to subscribe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

Point of order, Chair.

The majority of the electorate in the UK do not belong to any political party.

I would imagine that the majority of the electorate do not read any party manifesto in great detail.

I also suspect that a lot of the electorate would not agree with every item on the said manifesto, when they decide where to place their X on the ballot paper.

I certainly think that the manority do not give a shit about the plots and counter plots consuming so much of party members time. They want someone to run the government for the benefit of the country not for the benefit of the mps.

Down here, the complaint is that people do not see councillors etc., out and about, talking to people and finding out what they want. I know that covid has played a big part in that, but it is something that Labour need to address if they hope to make any headway.

People are losing interest in voting. I think that we are all agreed that is not a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:25 AM

No change of subject, Raindog. Had you wandered into the room a few hours ago you'd have seen it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:20 AM

Bit of a change of subject there pfr. Have i wandered into the wrong room?

Have you seen the American version of the film released in 1947? A quick search only revealed,

"The version of the film originally shown in the United States had scenes depicting flashbacks of Sister Clodagh's life before becoming a nun edited out at the behest of the Legion of Decency."

It would be interesting to compare versions of the film released in the UK and US at the time. I don't know if the UK censors requested any cuts for the original release.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:58 PM

Steve - I rewatched "Black Narcissus" this weekend [BBC catch up]

A classic of post war British cinema,
which could only be permitted to be viewed in the land of 'freedom of speach' America
after their censors cut it to shreds in order to be more tolerable to American over-sensitivites.

This rendered the near perfectly constructed work of cinematic art
so incoherent it lost most meaning, and was near unwatchable.

The same fate befell many other British film makers, writers, and creatives.


.. not much changed then, since 1947...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:21 PM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism. Once you do that, I promise to take you on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:16 PM

From: Steve Shaw
When Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, a large number of senior Labour people on the right of the party refused to work with him in the shadow cabinet. One of that lot, Tom Watson, served as deputy leader. Both he and many of those others never missed an opportunity to brief against Corbyn, and Jeremy endured trumped-up accusations of antisemitism that none of them ever tried to refute in his defence. Indeed, several senior Labour figures attacked him on it constantly and dishonestly.


Is it, at least, possible that his fellow party members didn't protect him from those claims because they believed that he did have anti-semitic tendencies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

"I've measured it from side to side: 'Tis three feet long, and two feet wide..."

[Wordsworth, 1789, "The Thorn"]

We all have our off-days...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:38 PM

Countryman - a poem by George Mackay Brown



Countryman

Come soon. Break from the pure ring of silence,
A swaddled wail

You venture
With jotter and book and pencil to school

An ox man, you turn
Black pages on the hill

Whisper a vow
To the long white sweetness under blessing and bell

A full harvest,
Utterings of gold at the mill

Old yarns, old malt, beside the hearth,
A breaking of ice at the well

Be silent, story, soon.
You did not take long to tell

- From Voyages, Chatto & Windus, 1983


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM

Cheers to Pete and pfr. Two brilliantly clear-sighted posts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 11:37 AM

The euphoria of blair kicking out the tories was short lived
as soon as it became so clearly apparent
he was a christian, etonian, and fanboy for the royal family..

It wasn't just window dressing strategy to win over mail and telgraph demogtaphic..

He realy was that entrenched in the old establishment order.


That's when I started to distrust blair as a real Labour PM...

Then he started attacking benefit claimants far worse than thatcher had...
Next he moved on to making life worse for teachers...

That's just two of his early accomplishments.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM

Funnily enough i dropped my partner off at Knott End ferry a couple of weeks back (she was on her way to see her old mum in Fleetwood)

labour party - we've been here so many times, being let down by the leadership (exceptions being foot and corbyn) members join the party because they are inspired by socialism, workers' rights, cnd - liberty, equality and fraternity. what happens to these mps once they are elected by other folks' enthusiasm? ( 'i believe i am representing the people who want competent and efficient government that is slightly more humane than the tories. and to crack down on socialists in the party') - it's all very suspicious if you ask me. when elected, Blair could have achieved anything for the country. i'm not saying he did nothing but he left all the old structures intact and stood in the way of progress.

on the way back from Knott End I watched thousands of geese flying overhead to Cockerham sands while listening to Beth Orton on a lovely evening. a week after that i was in the Bell in Bath. Jags beat Hamilton 6-1 on friday. if you can try to ignore all the horrors - it's still a beautiful world


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM

Blimey, Knott End Ferry! That takes me back - it must be sixty years since I last went on it (it was a regular treat for us in them days and Fleetwood was me parents' favourite place: they loved walking round Rossall Point...)

Heard from Betty Swollix lately, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM

Damn you for mentioning them, Shaw! Shall I tell all about Lilo Lil and the Knot End ferry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM

It's not still about those bingo balls and the photocopied bingo cards, is it, Dave...? :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:10 AM

It's a quasi-philosophical question is that, who kicked elections into touch...After Corbyn had given Theresa May a nasty shock in 2017, the big guns both inside and outside the party came out for him in full force. He was no charismatic leader, for sure. However, like Michael Foot, he was one of that rare breed in politics, a person of principle.

Michael Foot doomed himself by wearing a jacket that wasn't a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Johnson leads a dissolute private life (lessee now...how many kids has he got...) and is a proven serial liar as well as a racist and a homophobe, but he can't doom himself no matter how hard he tries, not even by causing tens of thousands of needless deaths. Something to contemplate there, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:06 AM

Well Steve, as a TRUE Manc in exile I obviously have to disagree with you about Liverpool. But seeing as I know FA about football (see what I did there?) I cannot be passionate about it. There have been other things but I'm not one for dredging up the past. When we next disagree, you will be the first to know!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:51 AM

This week’s naming of five of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest staffers

And we can't get rid of the man even now?

Long ago I compared Corbyn to Michael Foot, and asked how many elections Footie kicked into touch. Corblymie is really doin' gud fer the party, innit? At a time when 'king Boris is bumbling and turncoating his way through a crisis he created, alienating a big enough chunk of his supporters to make a enough difference, in any other circumstance.

Ya cain't make it up, 'cept 'king Boris does, as he goes along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:39 AM

Tell me whenever you disagree, Dave!


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