BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:38 AM

I may have said this before here, as I have certainly said it in a few places, but I will repeat myself if I have. No matter.

Talk of selling off the NHS is unwise. I do not think the Conservatives would do anything so crude. But they don't have to. All they have to do is ensure that for those who can afford it private medicine is the preferred route. There are all sorts of ways this can happen: allow the waiting lists to grow and grow. Restrict the range of operations on the NHS (eg varicose veins are no longer available on the NHS. I think they dropped around 35 such things not long ago.) Restrict the criteria for access ("BMI over 35? Sorry, no treatment until you get it down. Obesity is a health risk and we need to atop it")

All of those are happening at the moment (and were all pre-covid, by the way.)


Next, paint those who take out private healthcare as patriots, for reducing the waiting lists for the NHS. Such selfless people.

Next, think about tax relief for individuals with private healthcare. After all, if they are not using the NHS, it is fair they don't pay as much for it, isn't it?

They do not stress that reduces the NHS funds, so makes things like waiting lists worse, but it does. Which of course makes the private more appealing, and more go private, leading to whittling down the NHS further.

And yet, they could still boast that the NHS exists and is free at the point of use. So it has not been "sold."

If you look at the reports from private healthcare companies for the year before covid struck, they reported a boom in the self-pay sector. I.e. those without health insurance but paying for a private operation directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 04:19 AM

I suppose I should reveal my hand after that.

My wife has osteoarthritis. She has had both hips and both knees replaced. One operation was on the NHS, three we paid for privately, primarily because of the length of the waiting lists.

When Johnson became Prime Minister, I took out private health insurance for myself for the first time in my life, because my trust in the government is that low. Even in Thatcher's time, I did not consider private health insurance.

Naturally, the cost of private health care for my wife is totally prohibitive so she is not covered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:13 AM

About two years ago I had a large sebaceous cyst on my shoulder that was constantly prone to bursting (and coming back). I was flabbergasted to be told by my GP that he couldn't deal with it under the NHS. He gave me the number of a private clinic. I rang them. They offered me a half-hour appointment (which included "counselling") with no guarantee of success. £450.

I sorted it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM

Ear syringing is no longer available on the NHS either. Our local optitions do it for £100 or Specsavers do it for £55.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM

Opticians is the more common spelling of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:34 AM

(Make your own eyesight joke now...)

Yes, I had to have my ears syringed recently for that sort of price. While there the nurse told me of a patient whose was problem is so severe he needs to come in every six months. At around £100 a time, that is a lot of cash to find.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM

It isn't appropriate to give dietary advice to someone you do not know anything about. You may, for instance, advise someone to eat more nuts, not knowing they have an allergy. Giving advice in ignorance of all the facts is foolish. Relating what works for you is a different matter.

---

Yards and yards of posts with medical bickering have been removed. The party who complained to this mudelf about a personal insult is the one who set it off, so there isn't a lot of sympathy here. Don't Feed the Trolls and/or Don't Be a Troll. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:30 PM

Now to return to Brexit and UK politics!

The Independent is reporting:
The EU will reportedly force the UK to agree to “conditions” as both sides edge towards a truce averting a so-called “sausage war” with a temporary extension to defer a ban on shipments of chilled meat.

An eleventh-hour agreement will come just hours ahead of the expiration of the grace period on 1 July, which would have prevented shipments of the products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

===
I thought something like this would happen, but I did expect a str I never set of conditions, along the lines of demonstrable progress from the UK that it was implementing what it agreed. In these early reports, that does not seem to be the case. But we should see tomorrow, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:31 PM

Autocorrections again!

I expected a stronger set of conditions ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 09:59 PM

I ordered a powered speaker off Amazon.
Opened the box, and it's a bloody 2 pin Euro plug..

Don't they know there's a brexit going on...!!!???

Millions of patriotic born and bred British heroes
voted with a historic decisive victory over traiter to the nation remoaners,
to keep out this kind of foreign threat to our sovereignty...

Btw.. My sound advice is never eat continental food.
It will sap your British vitality, make you sterile,
and your skin go an unhealthy olive colour,
and in worse cases you'll turn transexual..

That is a fact confirmed by British facebook experts.

British 3 pin plugs and food first, and forever...

We showed the Germans once again on the hallowed battle field of Wembley.
Eleven true English men raised eating a pure healthy diet of holy Albion pies and mash
will never be defeated...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:16 AM

LOL, pfr!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM

Come off it pfr.
We all know that it was Boris what won it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

I am not interested enough to spend an hour and a half watching football, but my son has just told me that during the match Wills and Kate were shown jumping up and down with delight and waving their arms in the air.
This morning he watched a number of news broadcasts, all of which showed the royal couple clapping demurely, in a calm and dignified manner.
He believes that the images are being controlled, either by the media or by the palace itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 06:53 AM

suggests going to a PROFESIONAL , yes , but professional GPs are overworked and under pressure

So you think we would get better advice off a folk singer?

Dave the gnome used to be considerably overweight, but i believe since he took up cycling he has lost weight

No, no, no. Once again you are not in possesion of the full facts. I always cycled, hiked and swam even when I was obese. I have lost over 4 stone with WW. Still about 20lb to go but that will go this year.

did he need professional advice?

YES I MOST CERTAINLY DID, AND LOTS OF IT!

Now, can we get back to UK politics please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM

I'm clearing out my mum's house now that she's in a care home.

Bookcases are full of reader's digest and similar populist medical textbooks.
Plus thick encyclopaedias of medications..

All this confirms my suspicions such a superficial grasp of this kind of knowledge
fueled and exacerbated my sister's mental health problems..

She started as a fairly normal teenager training for st John's ambulance certificates..

But problems started to become apparent in her later teens.

She could very expertly pull the wool over the eyes of examining doctors and specialists,
by feigning the correct symptoms they needed to observe for diagnosis.

She became a very crafty hypochondriac,
suffering all kinds of rare and trendy conditions.

This provided her status and power in online self-help and therapy groups.

At worse I believe she developed Munchausen syndrome.
All her pets suffered rare and exotic illnesses needing very expensive veterinary treatment, which he could document in log books and online diaries.

Again providing her with elite expert status in online forums for vulnerable health obsessives.

I'm quite certain she also controlled and abused my mother's life with emergency call outs to ambulances,
for what my sister diagnosed as strokes while my mother was asleep.
My sister being the only witness, giving medical teams articulate descriptions of the textbook symptoms..

There's far more to this story than I divulge now..

For these reasons I am also very wary of self-appointed amateur medical specialists...

No back to British politics and taking the piss out of brexiteers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM

now back...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM

That’s a very sad story, pfr. Having had to deal, for many years, with a close relative who suffered paranoid schizophrenia, and another with very serious addiction, I feel for you and your family.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:29 AM

yes i am wary of self appointed amateur medical specialists too. which was why i said
i would advise everyone see a professional conventional doctor or a professional herbal doctor. however professionals include alternative medicine acu puncture etc.
incidentally about weight watchers quote
Weight Watchers isn't a medical organization and we can't give you medical advice. We strongly urge you to consult with your physician (or primary health-care provider) before starting any weight loss plan.    weight watchers are not professional medical specilists

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:49 AM

Dick - that's fair enough..

Like Steve, my post is of perhaps more relevance towards some of our overseas pals.

It's maybe no coincidence that the online medical and therapy self help groups my sister dedicated herself to,
seemed to be mainly American..

Which is where she finally gravitated towards..
Travelling to the USA to stay with online friends I suspect involved in kind of cult-like activity..

.. And was found dead in mysterious circumstances in a desert region motel..

My mother's savings being drained in the process...

Local coroner and law enforcement quickly decided there were no problems, and closed the case..

I certainly felt unwelcome when trying to talk to them on the phone..


..nah.. can't have been just because I'm a Brit...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 09:51 AM

Government resists Tory MPs’ calls to scrap ‘fearful’ daily Covid figures

They should publish the figures, of course. But since Javid got the health post I have been anticipating they will be dropped - shortly after 19 July, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 12:54 PM

Yes, publish the data.
That does not mean they should hijack a large portion of the nightly news to try to persuade the public not to go about their normal lives.
Of course, there are other items which are still given priority over showing the figures, such as football ;)
But show the whole of the figures, and put them in proportion.
The current daily death rate from Covid seems to be climbing (from 0 on 1 June to 23 on 29th, but the gradient looks pretty good since March 15th) Here

But somehow, we rarely see the long term graphs except when figures are rising steeply, and the government want to "instil more caution", such a graph is Here for weekly deaths in England and Wales and seems to show that the death rate is following annual trends (at present).
In fact a note following the graph states that:
There were 9459 deaths registered in England and Wales for the week ending June 18, 2021, fewer than the average for this week between 2015 and 2019, and a signal of the improving Coronavirus situation in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:45 PM

I agree that the number of deaths is sufficiently small that you cannot really determine a trend. As we stand a single death occurring an hour after midnight that might have occurred an hour before is enough to substantially alter the analysis.

And that is a good thing, because it emphasises how deaths are.

Hospitalizations are, unfortunately, a different story. While the figures remain low compared to earlier dates, there is a clear upward trend that looks as if it is accelerating. It needs close monitoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 08:39 AM

So, to get away from the dietary advice nonsense and its attendant trolling, and back to UK politics, here’s an interesting piece from today’s New European discussing the Populist nature of our current PM’s politics, and the fragility of his tenure in the job.

Fingers crossed that it’s correct in its conclusion, and Johnson’s monstrous rule comes to an end quickly, and soon…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 11:37 AM

My Czech partner has told be that the Czech government may be about to put in place a travel ban between the Czech Republic and UK. on the feeble basis that new cases in Cr are 158 per day, and approximately 28,000/day in UK.

This does not provide grounds for victimising ordinary people as the high numbers are due 100% to the actions of Boris Johnson.

The borders must be kept open, and is that results in the variant that originated in India spreading through the rest of Europe like wildfire, then t will be nobodies fault expect for Johnson and the s**m who voted tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:43 AM

Labour's Kim Leadbeater has pulled off a surprise victory in the Batley and Spen by-election.

It had been expected that Tory challenger Ryan Stephenson would defeat Ms Leadbeater, sister of the murdered MP Jo Cox, after one of the most bitterly-fought parliamentary by-election campaigns in living memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:51 AM

Sadly my daughter in law was beaten by 10 votes in her bid to become a Labour councillor in Stoke :-( With the hurdles thrown at her by both the Tories and the right wing of the local Labour party she still did remarkably well and I am proud of both her for going for it and of my son for the help and hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:23 AM

I strongly suspect that the result of the Batley & Spen By-Election is a message to the Labour Party’s membership to stop fighting each other, and to unite to fight the real enemy - the worst Populist Tory government any of us can remember - and do what they exist for - to represent the interests of ordinary people. We need a Labour Party than can get elected, not a bloody debating society for dogmatists to slug it out with one another over Labour ideology.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:05 AM

I feel the result of the Batley and Spen bye-election is very difficult to draw conclusions from. I have seen a lot of comment from the Conservative side pointing out a margin or around 300 votes in a historically Labour seat is a bad sign, but that, deliberately or otherwise, ignores Galloway and his stated objective of splitting the Labour vote. If he had not done that, the margin would be substantially greater.

On the other hand, Hancock's Half Hour and some support for Leadbeater because of Jo's murder will have played a part, and that only needs to have shifted the opinion of a few hundred to alter the result.

My feeling is that there will be a lot of special pleading on both sides and drawing any firm conclusion is risky.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: G-Force
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:10 AM

And the 'Rejoin EU' candidate got 75 votes!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:37 AM

Tory vote percentage was DOWN compared with the previous election in 2019. NOT a good vote for the Tories whatever spin and lies they are spouting on the BBC breakfast programme.
The Labour vote was split by George Galloway.
If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:18 AM

If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.
It also totals up to 65% being anti the official Labour candidate.
We can all play the game of saying that every vote not in favour of one thing must be 'anti' them, but most people would vote for the candidate that they wish to succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:45 AM

And 66%^ voted against the official tory candidate. Just be grateful that the people of Bately & Spen decided that they did not want tory garbage representing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:02 AM

i think that it is fair to say that there is - and always has been - a significant majority of the voters who are anti-tory - and particularly in their current rancid and inept incarnation. of course, their opponents have to stop splitting and arguing and do everything to rid ourselves of this curse on the uk and on civilized poltics. i play turn about with labour/green dependending on the level of hopefulness in the LP and will always vote anti-tory. uniting an anti-tory block should be possible if we allow and encourage dissenting voices - and scottish, welsh, NI progressives - to feel valued. we just have to be realistic and positive. however - on no account should we ever regard the libdems as anything but tories with a bit of a conscience. splitter? moi? nae chance!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:32 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away. Well that is not going to happen. The real splitters in the party are the Blair/Brown ex-acolytes and their descendants who forgot long ago that Labour was founded as a party for the working classes and trade unionists, not as the conscience-ridden arm of the establishment. Instead, they revelled in the "glory years" of Blair and ignored the inconvenient fact that the gap between rich and poor grew faster in that 13 years than it ever does under the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn was demonised because he hadn't forgotten what Labour is for. This morning we had Mandelson, that yesterday's man par excellence, on the radio spitting out bile about Corbynists. Even though we won the bloody by-election, he simply couldn't help himself, could he. And before the result was known, the chatter was about who would take over from Starmer once he'd been booted. Guess what: the best they came up with was Yvette Cooper. Yvette bloody Cooper. A disaster waiting to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:47 AM

i agree. i would have thought there was a natural alliance with the labour right and 'wet' tories. and liberals. it's always been true that you are part of the problem or the solution - these cynical chancers have made their decision. (incidentally those on the tory 'left' have been very quiet since they were purged from the party. i wish the labour right would start supporting the membership or give up likewise)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:01 AM

”I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away”

Made-up Shit Steve - you keep trotting out this bollocks, but you’d do better to read what I actually write instead of indulging in this deceitful practice of putting your own perverted interpretation on my words and pretending I’ve said something I haven’t. That was Jim’s tactic - it stank when he lowered himself to it, and it stinks just as foully when you sink so low. The plain, unarguable fact is that nowhere, but nowhere, in my post have I said that ‘the left of the party should shut up and go away”.

Now knock off the made up shit, show a bit of honesty and, to quote your own words, get a bloody grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:11 AM

I know what you are saying, John, but by your own token, Steve did not say that you were telling the left to shut up and go away! That aside, what is your recommendation for unity in the Labour party? Are you suggesting that we of the left wing give up our principles and indulge in a bit of right wing populism just to win elections? That is what it sounds like but maybe I am interpreting what you are saying incorrectly. Trouble is, if we do that, as per the article you linked the other day, populism is ultimately doomed to failure. Surely we would be best placed to win elections if we offered a real alternative to the Tories and the way the Labour party is currently being managed, that just is not going to happen :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:36 AM

I'm mostly well towards the left..

.. and I'm sick of a lot of the self indulgent middle class student politics 'socialists'
who are taking over the party,

It's not an extension of the bloody NUS.. it's the Labour Party for supposedly mature grown ups...

Stick to the basic working class / Union principles,
and leave all the distracting divisive voter alienating single issue religion/sexuality/etc obsessions to the liberals...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 11:47 AM

Thank you, Dave!

I taught in east London through most of the 70s and was active in what was the most militant local NUT branch at the time (I've mentioned before that Blair Peach was my union buddy at the time). We militant types were constantly harassed by both the
London and the national NUT leadership to drop our calls for action and accept their brand of "unity." That meant letting things go, never calling for action, getting permission from the top, etc. and being castigated for stepping out of their drawn line. We stood on picket lines for school cleaners, hospital workers and the fire brigade at six in the morning in the freezing cold before going to work. We were organised sufficiently in schools to ensure that the headteachers never got a bit beyond themselves (and that often resulted in greater harmony). We were DOING STUFF, not sitting around passing pointless resolutions or moaning in staff rooms. Unfortunately, those are the things that the Union has been doing ever since Thatcher was allowed to emasculate us. And look where it's got us. Since the 70s, class sizes have got bigger, school buildings are crumbling away, we've had pay freeze after pay freeze and classroom teachers are drowning in bureaucracy instead of being allowed to channel their energies into their classes. That's unity for you. And by the way, some of those union bosses who were calling the shots had never set foot in a classroom. We should never let the powers that be persuade us that militant with a small m is a dirty word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:12 PM

An apology would have been nice Steve, or at least an acknowledgement that I didn’t say what you were implying. The fact that you don’t have the cojones to admit your fault speaks volumes. But it surprises me not one jot.

So to be absolutely crystal clear, when I say, “…Party members to stop fighting each other and to unite to fight the real enemy…” I’m talking about the entire membership, irrespective of individual political views. I don’t give a damn about individual political leanings - Individuals’ precious principles are worthless when, not only can the Party not get itself elected to government, but also its lack of seats in the HoC make it incapable of mounting an effective opposition.

It’s not for me, a non-member, to tell the Labour Party how to solve its huge problems, but Politics is, and always has been, a world of compromise. Somewhere along the line, compromises have to be made - by all sides - in order to make the Party acceptable to the majority of voters. Failure to do that, a refusal to do whatever is necessary to defeat the worst Tory government any of us here can remember, is a dereliction of the Party’s duty to the people it was created to represent, and the intransigent ‘My Way or the Highway’ types would do better to take the highway.

I repeat - what’s needed is a Labour Party that can get itself elected, and can begin to repair the damage that the Tories have wrought on the weakest, most vulnerable. What we don’t need is a bunch of dogmatists beating each other up over ideology in a toothless debating society.

And Steve, your rambling, preachy accounts of what you claim to have done fifty years ago carry absolutely no weight in the here and now. It’s just political onanism, and it doesn’t do a thing to help the people who need a Labour government the most. Lose the cassock, and get a grip.

IMHO, YMMV of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:42 PM

I am outside the best part of a half bottle of good scotch so I shall not attempt rational argument but the thing that strikes me about your last post, John, is that it does not address my question about how you propose to unify the Labour party. Ok, you are not a member, but if you have such strong feelings about the Labour party getting elected, you must have some idea how it should go about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 03:46 PM

BTW, I am no longer a member of the Labour party. I resigned after Starmer's attack on Becky.

Yes, I do know her well enough to be so familiar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:31 PM

The most important thing is to get a Labour Party Government of whatever hue.

I detested Blair and his ilk, and despise many of the policies they brought in .............. I left the Labour Party because of them.

However I would rather have the likes of THAT labour party than the callous cronism of the current parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:51 PM

Dave, I’m a voter who has supported various incarnations of the Labour Party (including Corbyn’s). I have little understanding of the mechanics by which the party organises itself or functions. But I’m aware that ‘something’ is broken in the party, and I am of the opinion that, until that something is fixed, Labour is, and will remain, unelectable.

If my car breaks down, I don’t have the knowledge or skill to fix it, but I sure as hell know it’s broken down. Likewise my central heating or my dish-washer. You don’t expect me to be able to tell the repair guy how to mend those things, so why do you expect me to be able to explain how to ‘mend’ a ‘broken’ political party? It’s not necessary to know how to mend it in order to realise it’s broken.

The membership are the ones who have to make an unelectable party electable, and kicking lumps off each other won’t help that process. And, after fifty years in higher management in industry, one thing I’m absolutely certain about is that intransigence is the enemy of good decision making, and that the best decisions are arrived at when everyone involved sets aside personal enmities, old feuds, and ‘un-breakable’ principles, and all agree to compromise, at least a little, in order to reach agreement.

The intransigence and belligerence of, for instance, Steve’s posts sadden me, because they strike me as typifying the bitterness in the party that is preventing it moving forward and making itself electable. Again, during my working life, I was made brutally aware time and time again that harking back to the past and trying to re-fight old battles is not just un-productive, it is destructive in the extreme.

Somewhere along the road, the fights have to stop, compromises have to be made, and the Labour Party has to unite against the Tories and Populism. Otherwise, it’s had its day, and the Tories will have theirs in the form of permanent government. Is that what you guys want?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 04:53 PM

Again, I know what you mean,Raggy, but I'm not sure I agree. Is "Tory light" any better than Tory? I'll decide when I'm sober!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:18 PM

So marginalise the left (Kinnock couldn't manage it, John Smith probably wouldn't have, but Blair did it better), get yourself elected and be a Tory anyway. Not only did Blair massively enlarge the gap between rich and poor, not only did his thirteen years of light-touch regulation on the irresponsible financial institutions eventually give the Tories the go-ahead to visit years of miserable austerity on the poorest in the country, not only did his lies help to visit years of terrorism on this country, but he also heartily supported an idiotic administration in the US that shat on the Palestinians and advocated for a detestable Israeli regime. That's what happens when you'll do anything, anything at all, to get elected. That's why I'm extremely sceptical when the centre-right in Labour "calls for unity." I am still a member of the Labour Party, I want the party to return to its core values (not those that Starmer thought he was alluding to standing next to Kim today, but the real ones). If there's a lesson to be learned from our election defeats in 2010 and 2015, when the unity people in the party were calling the shots, it's that you do not convince the voters to support you if the only conviction you have is to be a Tory-camp-follower-but-with-a-conscience. That's why Keir Starmer will be trounced at the next election. By the way, my sister saw Jo Cox growing up, she's friends with her mum and she knows Kim. They are by no means Corbynites, that lot, but they are driven people who really do understand Labour's core values and who fight for their own communities. A bit more of that would be good. That's how you win. Today, Mandelson demonstrated precisely how we'll lose.

As for you, BWM, I don't respond to today's posts from you because I find them to be personal and offensive and completely off-beam. You might think that they are somehow heroic because they're from the hip, etc., but I'm afraid they don't do it for me. Maybe we will talk tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 06:29 PM

Go easy on that whisky now, Dave. I have four bottles of superb single malts which I got for my 70th a couple of weeks ago. I find at my age that it's Nero d'Avola OR whisky, not "and." I've been known to have a nightcap of malt after the vino and have found that this is not necessarily a wise move. Mrs Steve is fairly merciless when it comes to not permitting lie-ins...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 03:20 AM

Sorry John but that just does not wash. You know it is broken, you do not know how to fix it, yet you do know that it needs unity. Yes, it does need compromise to achieve agreement in any situation. Compromise is a two sided thing. Why then does it seem to be just the left wing that are targeted as being the ones who are rocking the boat? This is not having a go at you or anything personal. I have noticed that in general it is always left wing intransigence or the loony left who are at fault. We have to ask ourselves why this is and the most likely answer is that the people pulling the strings want to demonise the left to ensure that government stays firmly behind their interests rather than for the good of the majority.

In answer to your question, Raggy, yes any Labour government must be better than this shower of shysters but, again, I am not convinced that moving further right will be of any benefit in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 03:34 AM

Picking up on something PFR said. Maybe the Labour party is not currently fit for purpose in that it no longer represents the very people it is supposed to help. Maybe if it stopped pandering to higher management, computer professionals and well to do retirees, and started representing the interests of the majority of the workforce it would win their vote. Or is wanting a party that helps the poorest rather than the well off just wishful thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 21 - 05:44 AM

Jeremy Corbyn, unexpectedly, was elected leader. Tom Watson became his deputy. Tom Watson never failed to brief against Corbyn at every opportunity, though he remained his deputy. Other members of the Miliband right-wing faction, lots of them, when Incited, refused to serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, and they also briefed against him, frequently. A cabal of disaffected Israel sympathisers ran a prolonged and concerted campaign to paint Corbyn as an antisemite, a massive lie perpetuated by some extremely dishonest LABOUR PARTY members who, with the help the Daily Mail, managed to hand a massive majority in the 2019 election to the Tories on a plate (OK, we would probably have lost anyway, but at least it wouldn't have been the drubbing it turned out to be). When Starmer became leader, one of the first things that happened was that Corbyn was expelled on extremely dubious grounds. Starmer also sacked Becky Long-Bailey on the slightest of pretexts for doing next to nothing wrong.

OK then. Shall we talk about "compromise" again?