BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:27 PM

Over here Boris' remarks are reduced to "expect a tidal wave of Omicron".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:27 PM

Over here Boris' remarks are reduced to "expect a tidal wave of Omicron".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:36 PM

Our local pharmacy is quite strict on us using the code and will only issue kits to people with them. They don't have any of the nose only kits though :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:28 PM

Well I've been ordering test kits online up to now. Every test we've done so far has been negative. As we're off to a funeral tomorrow we'll each be doing one this evening. Thing is, as I was worried about running out, I nipped into Boots an hour ago, and they gave me two packs. I didn't need a code, she didn't take my name - just handed over the kits. But the command is that we must report every result. Well if they don't know who's got the bloody kits, they can't keep tabs on that, can they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 07:06 AM

It may be a glass-half-full point of view, but in a way I am quite encouraged by the government running out of lateral flow tests and the website crashing because it got overloaded. Both show that the general population is still taking this quite seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 04:04 AM

Apologies for calling the thing a "press conference!" Very nice of y'all not to pick me up on it.

The focus on vaccination is the right one in my opinion. We're conditioned to look for ulterior motives every time he opens his mouth, which is something he's brought on himself. Like millions of others, I suspect, I'm very glad that he has, as yet, declined to cancel Christmas. I can't help thinking that all the stuff about Tory partying has made that idea politically next to impossible for him. In the end, vaccination is overwhelmingly the most important measure for getting the virus under control, and other measures, in comparison, look like piddling around the edges.

And let's not forget that one of the main reasons that we are where we are is that the Tories have run down the NHS in a concerted way since 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 03:23 AM

Of course it was the right idea, Nigel, it was the right message, done in the right way.

If he could do the same for all the other issues facing him he could even become a good prime minister. Getting one thing right out of the hundreds of lies hardly qualifies him as a paragon of virtue though does it?

Has anyone else noticed that vaccinations have become the new antisemitism? A couple of years ago if anyone said anything against the Tories it was "Look! Labour antisemitism!" Now if anyone mentions the crashing economy, Brexit failures, destruction of the NHS or government sleaze the only response is to change the subject to the vaccination program. It is undoubtedly good but it doesn't excuse all the other damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 03:20 AM

Because the effectiveness of vaccines fade with time, it is a curious fact that having a very fast roll out of the vaccine against 'alpha' may have made us more vulnerable to 'omicron', because we had more people with a 'faded' level of vaccination. That is why the boosters are so important, of course, but it also shows the 'the fastest roll out in the world' may not be as great as you might first think. This is not to say it was anything but a good idea, of course.

That's the trouble with biology and medicine. It is more complicated than it first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 02:53 AM

I hate to say this, but I thought his press conference pitch this evening was on the money...

I agree. When I first heard the thing was being pre-recorded I thought the primary reason was to avoid being questioned about the party and the rest. Well, I am sure that is at least partially true, but putting a different spin on it, it avoided the important message being lost amid a media frenzy.

There was a second effect of it though. Apart from the unkempt appearance, 'Boris' was not in evidence. Instead, we had the Prime Minister speaking is a direct way, with no burbling, or obfuscation, or obvious misdirection. It showed that Johnson can be serious when need be.

I saw no obvious edits, and of course we do not know how many attempts to record it were rejected as 'not being serious enough'. But Steve is quite right: this was what was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 07:09 PM

Yes, it's the right idea.

However.

There's a wider context to all this.

(Not now, Stephen!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:51 PM

Dave The Gnome:
I think he wants us to get boosted

And is that the right idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:50 PM

I think he wants us to get boosted

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:49 PM

Has Boris got it right?
Or does anyone wish to disagree with the above?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 06:48 PM

Boris' pitch today:


The Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP
Good evening,

over the past year we have shown that vaccination is the key to beating Covid, and that it works.

The UK was the first country in the world to administer a vaccine,

we delivered the fastest roll-out in Europe,

and we’ve begun the fastest booster campaign too, with over half a million jabs delivered yesterday alone.

And these achievements

made possible by the extraordinary efforts of our NHS, including thousands of GPs and volunteer vaccinators -

have literally saved countless lives and livelihoods in this country.

But I need to speak to you this evening,

because I am afraid we are now facing an emergency in our battle with the new variant, Omicron,

and we must urgently reinforce our wall of vaccine protection to keep our friends and loved ones safe.

Earlier today, the UK’s four Chief Medical Officers raised the Covid Alert level to 4, its second highest level,

because of the evidence that Omicron is doubling here in the UK every two to three days.

We know from bitter experience how these exponential curves develop.

No-one should be in any doubt: there is a tidal wave of Omicron coming,

and I’m afraid it is now clear that two doses of vaccine are simply not enough to give the level of protection we all need.

But the good news is that our scientists are confident that with a third dose

– a booster dose –

we can all bring our level of protection back up.

And I know there will be some people watching who will be asking whether Omicron is less severe than previous variants,

and whether we really need to go out and get that booster.

And the answer is yes we do.

Do not make the mistake of thinking Omicron can’t hurt you; can’t make you and your loved ones seriously ill.

We’ve already seen hospitalisations doubling in a week in South Africa.

And we have patients with Omicron in hospital here in the UK right now.

At this point our scientists cannot say that Omicron is less severe,

and even if that proved to be true, we already know it is so much more transmissible,

that a wave of Omicron through a population that was not boosted

would risk a level of hospitalisation that could overwhelm our NHS

and lead sadly to very many deaths.

So we must act now.

Today we are launching the Omicron Emergency Boost,

a national mission unlike anything we have done before in the vaccination programme -

to Get Boosted Now.

A fortnight ago I said we would offer every eligible adult a booster by the end of January.

Today, in light of this Omicron Emergency, I am bringing that target forward by a whole month.

Everyone eligible aged 18 and over in England will have the chance to get their booster before the New Year.

And we have spoken today to the Devolved Administrations, to confirm the UK Government will provide additional support to accelerate vaccinations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

To hit the pace we need, we’ll need to match the NHS’s best vaccination day yet – and then beat it day after day.

This will require an extraordinary effort.

And as we focus on boosters and make this new target achievable,

it will mean some other appointments will need to be postponed until the New Year.

But if we don’t do this now, the wave of Omicron could be so big that cancellations and disruptions, like the loss of cancer appointments, would be even greater next year.

And I know the pressures on everyone in our NHS

– from our GPs, doctors and nurses to our porters –

all of whom have worked incredibly hard and we thank them for the amazing job they have done.

But I say directly to those of you on the front line,

I must ask you to make another extraordinary effort now,

so we can protect you and your colleagues – and above all your patients - from even greater pressures next year.

So from tomorrow in England, we are opening up the booster to every adult over 18 who has had a second dose of the vaccine at least three months ago.

The NHS Booking System will be open for these younger age groups from Wednesday,

and that’s the best way to guarantee your slot,

but in some places you can walk in from tomorrow.

We will also assist this emergency operation by

deploying 42 military planning teams across every region,

standing up additional vaccine sites and mobile units,

extending opening hours so clinics are open 7 days a week, with more appointments early in the morning, in the evening, and at weekends,

and training thousands more volunteer vaccinators.

And we’ll set out further steps in the days ahead.

It’s because of the threat from Omicron that I announced on Wednesday we will move to plan B in England.

You must wear a face covering in indoor public spaces.

From tomorrow, work from home if you can.

And from Wednesday, subject to a vote in parliament, you’ll need to show a negative lateral flow test to get into nightclubs and some large events if you’re not double vaccinated.

These measures will help slow the spread of Omicron.

But we must go further and get boosted now.

If you haven’t yet had a vaccine at all, then please get yourself at least some protection with a jab as quickly as possible.

If you’ve already had your booster, encourage your friends and family to do the same.

We are a great country. We have the vaccines to protect our people.

So let’s do it. Let’s Get Boosted Now.

Get Boosted Now for yourself, for your friends and your family.

Get Boosted Now to protect jobs and livelihoods across this country.

Get Boosted Now to protect our NHS, our freedoms and our way of life.

Get Boosted Now.

Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 04:54 PM

Quite, Nigel.

I hate to say this, but I thought his press conference pitch this evening was on the money...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 02:06 PM

Steve: Not a good look though, eh, Nigel?

I think I already made that clear: "I'm not saying that what he did was a good idea, but for those who claim that 'rules were broken',"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 01:12 PM

Here is one complete knobhead saying that people were only getting at Bozo because he got Brexit done. Luckily the interviewer jumped on the poor excuse for a human.

Just bitter remoaners

Apologies to Steve as it is on Faceache but worth watching anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:30 PM

so the conservative government have relied and spent millions on vaccines but not invested in building the needed hospitals, the vaccines appear to be not as effective as we were led to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:23 PM

Not a good look though, eh, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:07 PM

That is just a simplified aide-memoire of the Tier 2 restrictions, not the legal definition of them. For the legal definition, you need to look here. (Schedule 1)

As I read them, running the virtual zoom with two other people is against the schedule.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 11:29 AM

I'm not saying that what he did was a good idea, but for those who claim that 'rules were broken', and so far his only defensive claim has been that 'no rules were broken' it may be worth considering what the rules were under 'Tier 2' (England):
Guardian
Or Gov.UK

The 'no mixing of households' only appears to be listed under 'meeting friends and family'
For 'work and business' it says only that "Those who can work from home should do so"
Anything else, 'keep 2 metres apart' 'wear a mask' etc. seems to come under guidance, not regulation.

I can almost imagine this running a couple more weeks and Boris then saying "Ok. what rules are we supposed to have broken?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:07 AM

So he's in a room doing a quiz with people less than two metres away, one of whom is wrapped in tinsel and another who's wearing a Father Christmas hat. Absolutely against the Tier Two law of the time, but one of his lackeys sez that it's OK because he was there "only briefly" (he didn't say how long the other revellers were there for...) and that they weren't seen to be drinking. The backlash from his cronies and blind-as-a-bat vox-poppers is that the press and the BBC need to "stop playing politics" and get off his back. Would that be the same press that, for decades, has been instrumental in getting the Tories elected? Oh, those 'orrid fairweather friends!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 03:29 AM

how about investing money in building a few new hospitals, designed for dealing with viruses

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 21 - 10:44 AM

Now Gisela Stuart gets a nice little earner deciding whether senior servants are "one of us."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 21 - 05:02 AM

Have just sent this message to my son, who has to work from home all over again:

"Don't forget, you and your workmates must stay at home and do it all on Zoom in order to protect each other. But don't worry: when work has finished you can go and get pissed with them for six hours in a crowded, sweaty pub, no masks, no distancing, and don't forget to shut all the pub windows because baby it's cold outside!"

But no fret. Sadge told us this morning that the new measures are "balanced and proportionate." All good then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 04:21 PM

Since March 2020. I've kept every rule. Not one single breach. I've been called a mask rebel, an anti-masker and have been accused (by a moderator!) of being in bed with anti-vaxxers. I've had all three jabs and my flu jab and I haven't broken a single rule, not once. My Christmas was ruined last year by a last-minute edict from a man who, at that very time, was attending and sanctioning illegal parties on his watch, on his patch. Millions of people were affected worse than I was, to boot. And now he's lying in his teeth about all that, and his erstwhile press secretary was laughing at us.

Well I feel so great about that. Really good. I love a man who does Machiavellian better than Machiavelli himself.

John Crace on the Guardian website today is a spiffing good read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 01:26 PM

Watching Bozo blustering on the telly again and wondering why he has not yet been hanged. Surely he has had enough rope now. He is defending the daft bugger that resigned, blubbering publicly, because she got caught. It really is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 06:04 AM

The idea though that since the 1830s most people in Scotland have voted for the opponents of the Tories isn’t actually correct! For long periods it was basically a two way slog. It isn’t even actually correct to talk about it as the ‘Conservative Party’ in Scotland prior to the 1960s as it was actually several parties working together with the main partner being the Unionist Party! To keep things simple though we’ll call these parties the Tories.

Just going back to the 30s and 40s and Scotland was by then pretty evenly balanced between Labour and Tory voters. Throughout the 1950s the Tories tended to gain slightly more votes than Labour and in 1955 they even had a slight majority of total votes cast! Even more than the 50% of total votes the SNP managed in 2015.

Labour started to push consistently and clearly ahead from the 1960s but it wasn’t until the 1970s that the Tory vote started to go down to the low 30%s late 20%s.   

The Tory vote only went through the floor to well below 20% from 1997 onwards after a decade and more of Thatcherism. At least a part of that was down to their hardened opposition to devolution.

If someone is starting from a viewpoint that Scotland has always been anti-Tory though then it is a wrong starting point. It is kind of hard even to compare now as of course we now have three main parties plus the Lib Dems and Greens so voting patterns are not really there for a straight country to country comparison between Scotland and England. Plus there are different issues affecting things with the most obvious being the independence question. Plus on devolved elections we have a completely different voting system. At Westminster elections for Scottish constituency seats the SNP (as Labour did from the 1970s until quite recently) gain far more seats than their vote warrants. The difference being though that they support a change to the UK voting system – whereas Labour were happy to have a huge majority of Scottish seats on a minority of the vote.

People do though often suppose current trends mean it has always been so! You get the same with my constituency here in the Borders. Other Scots will say “oh you lot always vote Tory” when in fact the current Tory MP is the first Tory MP I have known here. Prior to John Lamont and since David Steel won the constituency in the mid 60s it was always Lib Dem apart from one SNP win – yet folk insist it has always been Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 03:06 AM

Indeed our voting system has a lot to answer for. No government since the 2nd World War has had a majority of the votes cast, despite sometimes having a large majority of the seats.

Labour in 1997 with 179 seat majority on 43.2% share of votes cast.
In 2001 167 seat majority on 40.7% share of votes cast. The two largest majority governments on seats since the war.

Is the present system the best for the country? Probably not.

Is the present system the best for the two main parties? They seem to think so.

I don't expect things to change anytime soon, apart from the party in power of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 21 - 02:31 AM

ha ha.
it is the electoral system, look at the last general election more people voted for all the other parties than they did for the conservative party, conservatives had 13966 in fact the liberals and labour party total share of the vote was 13965 all other parties snp green dup sinn fein brexit etc 3068, more people voted for other parties than the conservatives ,the tories had a minoriry share of the vote
How many votes cast per seat won?

The disproportionality between votes and seats can also be calculated in terms of votes-per-seat-won. In 2019 the Conservatives got one seat for every 38,264 votes, while Labour got one seat for every 50,837 votes. It took many more votes to elect a Lib Dem (336,038) and Green MP (866,435), but far fewer to elect an SNP MP (25,883)
why do you repeat inaccurate facts.the conservatives did not have a majrity share of the overall vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Dec 21 - 07:48 PM

Dave the Gnome thank you. I have asked this question before without satisfaction. It works for me.

The most important question in British electoral politics is almost never asked. Why does England usually vote Tory?????????

If you look at opinion polls on policy, most people in England are almost as left wing as most in Scotland and Wales. Most want to renationalise public services, redistribute wealth and increase spending on public services.

Likewise, on most issues, people in England are nearly as socially liberal as people in Scotland, supporting women’s right to choose an abortion and LGBTQI rights, for example. Even in supposedly conservative Northern Ireland, polls show widespread support for women’s and LGBTQI rights.

There are often said to be different attitudes to immigration, but that’s not particularly borne out in the data: the perceived divergence is better explained by the refusal of most of Scotland’s political class to partake in migrant bashing than by differences of attitude among the respective populations, and England isn’t as hostile to migrants as the tabloids would have you believe.

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This shouldn’t be surprising: across the Western world, most people are broadly socially liberal social democrats.

Which takes us back to our question. While people in Scotland and Wales tend to vote for parties which broadly reflect their policy preferences, why do people in England and Northern Ireland consistently vote for parties which don’t? Why do so many English people vote Tory despite disagreeing with the Tories on most major issues of the day, any given day?

Interestingly, this isn’t a new phenomenon. The modern Conservative Party was founded by Robert Peel in 1834. Since then, most of those who’ve had the vote in England have generally voted for it, while most of those who have had the vote in Scotland and Wales have usually voted for their various rivals du jour.

It is, though, an unusual phenomenon. With its dominance of English politics over nearly two hundred years, the Conservatives are often described as the most successful political party in the world.

If we want to understand this strange habit that English people have of voting for politicians with whom they largely disagree, it’s worth looking in more depth at English social attitudes, and particularly at the few areas where they do diverge from Scotland.

The most obvious and widely reported of these is the EU. As Anthony Barnett warned before the referendum, Brexit was driven by England, and can only really be understood as an English cry for help.

Screenshot 2020-06-21 at 10.30.54.png
Similarly, Trident nuclear weapons show a statistically significant difference in opinion.

Perhaps more significant, though, are two other differences. The first is that English voters overwhelmingly think that the empire was a good thing, while Scottish voters narrowly think it was bad. The second is that there is significantly less support for the monarchy in Scotland – 53% vs 69% for Britain as a whole, according to one recent poll.

Organised enthusiasm for the Windsors is also much weaker in Scotland. During the 2012 Queen’s Jubilee, there were 9,500 street parties in England and Wales, but only 60 in Scotland, mostly organised by the Orange Order.

If we want to understand why England votes Tory, this basket of issues seems to point to the answer. Each of them has in common that they are an icon of Anglo-British nationalism. And the Conservatives are seen as the party of Anglo-British nationalism.

Labour has always wanted to be seen as Anglo-British as well, and played a key role in creating a ‘British nation’ after Empire, as David Edgerton recently explained in his ‘Rise and Fall of the British Nation’.

But as long as the idea of Britishness is tied to the monarch – and therefore the class system – and Empire – and therefore racism – the Tories were always going to win the struggle to represent it.

The deep desire to make Britain ‘Great again’ which drives this nationalism takes form in a whole collection of policies: Brexit and the desire to return to imperial glories is the most obvious. Trident, the bling Britain got for ‘giving up’ up India, is the most extraordinary: it is being renewed at vast expense despite being technologically redundant, only because of an obsession with clinging white-knuckled to the past.

But the double helix in the DNA of these issues is sentimentality about the empire, and support for the monarchy, especially as the House of Windsor completed its transition to TV and tabloid monarchy.

It’s this feeling that makes England Conservative (even if not generally conservative): the Tories are the party of Anglo-British nationalism and Empire, the party of the ruling class. And the underlying message in much of Anglo-British nationalism is that posh people – and the monarchy first of all – ought to be in charge. That is, after all, who ran things when Britain was ‘great’.

This is why David Cameron and Boris Johnson were considered ‘prime ministerial’ while John Major, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband weren’t. It’s why the tabloids attacked Corbyn not for his economic or social policies, but for his supposed failure to genuflect sufficiently to the Queen and his unwillingness to commit to the mass slaughter of nuclear war.

In the 2019 election, Corbyn came unstuck on two issues whose dominance can only really be understood when we think about the character of Anglo-British nationalism.

With Brexit, this is perhaps obvious. With antisemitism, less so. But it’s worth reflecting that no other form of racism has so dominated an election campaign in the past, despite numerous heinously racist campaigns; a phenomenon which makes sense when we think about the fact that Anglo-British nationalism was born-again in WW2, redeemed from past crimes through the UK’s role in defeating Hitler and ending the Holocaust.

We need to talk about Churchill
What’s fascinating about all of this isn’t that it’s true. After all, nationalism is as much the dominant political ideology of our age as capitalism is the dominant economic system. We live in a world of nation states, to which billions of people feel loyal. What’s interesting is that ‘the British’ never talk about it.

In Scotland, there are endless Twitter barnies about the character and defining features of Scottish nationalism. In France, the idea of Frenchness is regularly dissected. In Germany, it is a deep matter of concern.

But most of the conversations about British electoral politics are a sophisticated attempt not to discuss the character of the defining force which shapes it: Anglo-British nationalism.

Over the last half decade, this has begun to change. The Scottish independence referendum forced Englishness and Britishness to mumble their own names. The Brexit referendum helped some of England’s liberals to better understand the country they live in. The decline of Anglo-Britain has meant that Anglo-Britishness has started to become visible, no longer such an overwhelming force that it blends into the background.

And in the past couple of weeks, it’s taken another few steps towards the spotlight. As well as being a flash of artistic genius and magnificent act of liberation, the toppling of the Colston statue unleashed a vast process of pedagogy.

By shifting the focus of British audiences watching Black Lives Matter protests from America-watching to self introspection, it jolted millions of people into an unprecedented process of teaching and learning.

Reni Eddo-Lodge’s brilliant history of recent British race politics – Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race – became (astonishingly) the first book by a Black British author to top the best-seller charts, with the next four slots also filled by Black authors’ books about race in Britain, representing the front carriages in a long pedagogical train sweeping the country.

Of course this process is politically polarised. I lurk in community Facebook groups across the country, and I’ve rarely seen them all ignite at the same moment with the same ferocious fight as in the last fortnight. But the opposite of being controversial is being ignored, and once the thesis and antithesis are thrashed out, a new uneasy synthesis will emerge, England will have a better understanding of itself. And politically, that’s a good thing.

I write all of this because last week, I published an excellent essay on openDemocracy by the always fascinating academic Kalpana Wilson, which I gave the provocative title ‘Churchill must Fall’, though it covers much more ground than the one man.

When I tweeted it, a number of progressives, including Observer columnist Nick Cohen and the brilliant anti-austerity economist Simon Wren Lewis, responded to the effect that this was falling into a trap. The right is desperate to turn an awkward conversation about race, racism and Empire into a flame war over Churchill.

The short response is that it’s not my job as a journalist to do what’s useful to the electoral prospects of the Labour Party. But setting that aside, I think this is a mistake.

Churchill is the founding father of modern Anglo-Britain. His radio broadcasts over the course of World War Two shifted from addressing an imperial ‘we’ to an archipelagic ‘we’, reinventing Britishness as located not across millions of square miles of colony, but in these North Atlantic islands.

His personal story is the story of modern British nationalism – the gassing of Kurds, the starving of Bengalis, the Mau Mau concentration camps; and the defeating of European fascism, the post-war rebuilding, the famous qualified defence of democracy.

While Thatcher is recent enough that the battles about her time in office are well remembered, Churchill – equally controversial in his era – has been turned into the guard dog of Anglo-British nationalism, the hero in the mythical national story.

While the pandemic may finally move Britain on from Thatcherism, steps taken away from what Anthony Barnett has called Churchillism are just as big a prize. And that’s impossible without addressing the man himself, for his myth is the national myth, the memory of him is the false memory of ourselves.

Flame wars are inevitable
There is no non-controversial way to do this. Milan Kundera said that “the struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”, and in the age of social media and rolling news, that struggle is always going to include a flame war.

For decades, England’s centre-left has avoided this conversation. And over decades, the right has always summoned it in time for a potentially close election: 1983 and the flag-waving of the Falklands War, 1992 and the Gulf War, 2010 and Gordon Brown being too Scottish, 2015 and Ed Miliband being too willing to listen to Scottish people, 2019 and Brexit. This is the grip that the papers have on England, the cross-series plot which keeps the nation in thrall and in line.

The good news is that now is the perfect moment to pull at this thread. The UK is probably half a decade from its next general election. A global movement is ensuring that at the core of the conversation is a cry so reasonable that no one can deny it and still claim to be a good person, but so radical that it demands transformation of our entire political and economic system: the statement that Black Lives Matter. Most people have progressive instincts, and facing the truth about the imperial past, believe it to be foul. And, for the first time in centuries, most British people alive today were born after the fall of the Empire.

There can be no better time than this for a long overdue process of national learning about England, Britain and Empire. There is no other way to do this than through the polarised process of online argument and this means there is no way to avoid the subject of Churchill. It may be awkward but it is also deeply rewarding: whether or not you agree that Churchill must fall, we must surely agree that we have to end the silence about what he really stood for.

The alternative is accepting the dominance of an Anglo-British nationalism which will always lead people to vote Tory. And that’s the real trap

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 05:58 AM

And from The Guardian today

Fortress Europe

"From  military-grade drones to sensor systems and experimental technology, the EU and its members have spent hundreds of millions of euros over the past decade on technologies to track down and keep at bay the refugees on its borders.

Poland’s border with Belarus is becoming the latest frontline for this technology, with the country approving last month a €350m (£300m) wall with advanced cameras and motion sensors.

The Guardian has mapped out the result of the EU’s investment: a digital wall on the harsh sea, forest and mountain frontiers, and a technological playground for military and tech companies repurposing products for new markets."


I have to say that I had not heard of Frontex before.

Frontex

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 05:41 AM

For all the shite talk coming from Priti Patel about trying to stop people entering the UK on small boats, she has not yet started copying the inhumane policies of the EU, policies that result in loss of lives.

The following article by Kenan Malik appeared in The Observer newspaper on the 14.11.21

Instruments to pursue a cruel policy

"A company of men in dark uniforms and balaclavas, all carrying clubs. They are battering a group of people, repeatedly clubbing them on their arms, legs and backs. They push them into a river that marks the boundary of the European Union. “Go,” they yell. “Go.”

It’s not an incident on the border between Belarus and Poland, the latest migrant flashpoint on the EU border, and one now dominating the news. It happened 1,000 miles to the south, between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it’s been happening for months, but with much less publicity or scrutiny than that afforded the events in Belarus.

The uniforms worn by the men in black on the Croatia-Bosnia border carried no insignias. An investigation by a consortium of European newspapers, broadcasters and NGOs has exposed them as members of special Croatian and Greek police units. Their job? To use violence to force undocumented migrants out of the EU and into non-EU states.

The operations are deemed “pushbacks”, a euphemism for illegal, violent expulsion. They happen all along the EU’s south-east border. Not just on land but at sea, too. Men from elite units in the Greek coastguard, again all dressed in black, wearing balaclavas and with no identity markings, regularly seize migrants, put them on orange life rafts, provided by the EU, push them out to sea towards Turkey and leave them to their fate."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 03:42 AM

Yes,Trident really, Rain Dog. Did you follow the link to the poll results where Trident was mentioned and look at the demographics of who supported the nuclear program and how they voted?

The documentary you link looks interesting so thanks for that but we have visitors for the next few days so it will have to wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Dec 21 - 03:23 AM

Makes you wonder if the author of that article has ever asked a tory voter why they decided to vote that way. Trident? Really?

Channel 4 had a two part series which covers some of the issues raised in that article.

Empire State of Mind


Writer Sathnam Sanghera travels across the country exploring the effects of the British Empire on modern Britain

Worth a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 09:07 AM

Good article for you here, Pete.

Why does England vote Tory?

I think it may answer your earlier question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 04:44 AM

Maddy Prior is a good singer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 21 - 03:54 AM

Maddy Prior and The Carnival Band were as brilliant as ever at the King's Hall and Winter Gardens in Ilkley. Such a good venue too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:37 PM

bar tat still there - but was a bit busy for me, sister and Rosa the lurcher on wednesday. i've been there a few times though and do like it - un autre temps, peut -etre

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 07:23 AM

There was a pub in Ilkely called Bar Tat! Dunno if it's still there though

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 06:21 AM

Careful with the Franglais now, Pete - you'll have Nigel in a lather again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 05:42 AM

I was just visiting my sister in Ilkley in a pub that used to be the Something to do with Ducks - good wee boozer til we met tory boy. we then moved on to the Something and Ham which looked like a bistro/wine with pricey beer (mary jane) but was more pleasant in the political ambience sense - which says a lot about modern politics i suppose.

i agree with your last post (!) steve - except would the french ever tolerate a real fascist clown as a serious politician? The day when that happens, or the Scots vote for the tories again - we'll know nous sommes truly dans le merde. or shite. sans a feckin paddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 05:07 AM

Last time I was in that pub, a chap was flogging cheap and nasty plastic toys, not for the first time either. I thought to meself, Ilkley? More bar tat...?

I'll get me mac...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 02:51 AM

I will be in Ilkley tonight, Pete! But not in a pub though so will not, hopefully, meet the same man :-) We really must meet up one day.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 21 - 01:03 AM

So, basically, it was a win for the Conservative party with over 50% of the vote.

All parties have their statements for public consumption, Nigel, and this is the Conservatives. They all try to present themselves in the best possible light.

But I was trying to get beyond that. Imagine yourself in the Conservatives Election planning meeting. What are they saying amongst themselves, that is not for public consumption? What runes can they read?

Well, they could say we got over 50% so there is nothing to be discussed. Let's all go home and meet up again after the next by election.

I don't think that is likely. These are some of the messages I think they will take from it.

* There was a lot of 'doorstep depression' with Johnson and the party, leading to a fair number of potential supporters not coming out to vote. That needs work.

* Labour, by itself, does not look strong enough to greatly damage us. Sure, some seats will probably go to them, but it does not look as if it enough to seriously inconvenience the Conservatives.

* An informal pact between LibDem and Labour is if anything more likely than before because it looks very likely a lot of LibDem voters were prepared to lend their vote to Labour. If the upcoming election shows that Labour voters are prepared to lend theirs to LibDems, we could have a substantial problem here. That informal alliance does seem to have damaged us and seats with majorities of a small number of thousands could easily fall to such a pact. Tactically, we need to discourage this in any way we can. Letting Labour think they can win on their own helps us. Equally, anything we can do to prevent a formal pact is desirable.

* The sizable vote for Reform UK is a significant threat. It could split the voters. We need to find a way to neutralize this. Reform UK has too few recognisable figures to operate well at a national level, so is very unlikely to actually gain power except in one or two seats, but it could certainly peel off a percentage of Tory voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 06:54 PM

Well I think that Johnson has tapped into Trumpism. What I mean by that is that he saw Trump being outrageous, lying, being stupid, inefficient and downright disreputable...yet retaining, in full, his popularity. In other words, do what you like, get accused of what you like and emerge unscathed. I'd bet he sees Trump as the ideal candidate in 2024. Well that's the thing you can copy. Right down to the unkempt, overweight, ill-fitting-suit appearance and haystack hair. Boris thinks that the man in the street will chime with all this. The man in the street has his own imperfections, and will take succour from the fact that the very top man has the same imperfections as he has. So that's all right then. Boris is a Jack the lad, and, well, I want to be Jack the lad too, just like Boris. Who cares if he has affairs, doesn't know how many kids he's got, how many times he breaks the rules, how much he lies to us. That the stuff I do too, or would like to. So leave the lad alone!

Decades ago, the French loved their leaders to be a bit dodgy outside of their political lives. Having affairs, cheating on the missus an that kind of stuff were par for the course. But in those days there were limits of decorum and morality, at least in the eyes of what the public were allowed to see. Trump and Johnson have, between them, swept away those limits. At least, they think so. We can only hope that a really big mistake will be the undoing. In the past, many of the things he's done would have counted as big mistakes. These days, they're just Jack the lad peccadillos. And that's very worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 04:38 PM

I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 04:18 PM

I met some guy in an Ilkley pub a couple of nights ago - him and his business partner were just back from downing street to get an award for something. He was a jolly (quite pissed) bloke , thought boris johnson (and trump, and farage -and Liverpool weirdly - were great (that was all we agreed on) I didn't get the sense that he was political really - he just liked his life and wasn't bothered about much else. Though he did think he was insulting us by calling us lefties from Lancashire. My sister and I took the piss for the rest of our pint before we got away. I thought it was interesting - i'd guess the bulk of tory support are something like this guy - but I was glad to escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 03:32 PM

I agree with you, Pete. Sadly, they are so good at conning people there are many who believe that they are preferable to an honest left wing leader or to staying in a secure and stable economic union. I really don't blame those who were conned. They were victims. There are those however who now know what the Tories are like yet still try to justify what they do. Human nature just doesn't like to admit making mistakes I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Dec 21 - 02:51 PM

On other matters - does anyone think that it is selfish, cynical and hypocritical - again - for the tories to carry on the way they are doing lately? They really don't care about anyone else do they?