BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM

Funnily enough i dropped my partner off at Knott End ferry a couple of weeks back (she was on her way to see her old mum in Fleetwood)

labour party - we've been here so many times, being let down by the leadership (exceptions being foot and corbyn) members join the party because they are inspired by socialism, workers' rights, cnd - liberty, equality and fraternity. what happens to these mps once they are elected by other folks' enthusiasm? ( 'i believe i am representing the people who want competent and efficient government that is slightly more humane than the tories. and to crack down on socialists in the party') - it's all very suspicious if you ask me. when elected, Blair could have achieved anything for the country. i'm not saying he did nothing but he left all the old structures intact and stood in the way of progress.

on the way back from Knott End I watched thousands of geese flying overhead to Cockerham sands while listening to Beth Orton on a lovely evening. a week after that i was in the Bell in Bath. Jags beat Hamilton 6-1 on friday. if you can try to ignore all the horrors - it's still a beautiful world

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 11:37 AM

The euphoria of blair kicking out the tories was short lived
as soon as it became so clearly apparent
he was a christian, etonian, and fanboy for the royal family..

It wasn't just window dressing strategy to win over mail and telgraph demogtaphic..

He realy was that entrenched in the old establishment order.


That's when I started to distrust blair as a real Labour PM...

Then he started attacking benefit claimants far worse than thatcher had...
Next he moved on to making life worse for teachers...

That's just two of his early accomplishments.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM

Cheers to Pete and pfr. Two brilliantly clear-sighted posts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:38 PM

Countryman - a poem by George Mackay Brown



Countryman

Come soon. Break from the pure ring of silence,
A swaddled wail

You venture
With jotter and book and pencil to school

An ox man, you turn
Black pages on the hill

Whisper a vow
To the long white sweetness under blessing and bell

A full harvest,
Utterings of gold at the mill

Old yarns, old malt, beside the hearth,
A breaking of ice at the well

Be silent, story, soon.
You did not take long to tell

- From Voyages, Chatto & Windus, 1983

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

"I've measured it from side to side: 'Tis three feet long, and two feet wide..."

[Wordsworth, 1789, "The Thorn"]

We all have our off-days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:16 PM

From: Steve Shaw
When Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, a large number of senior Labour people on the right of the party refused to work with him in the shadow cabinet. One of that lot, Tom Watson, served as deputy leader. Both he and many of those others never missed an opportunity to brief against Corbyn, and Jeremy endured trumped-up accusations of antisemitism that none of them ever tried to refute in his defence. Indeed, several senior Labour figures attacked him on it constantly and dishonestly.

Is it, at least, possible that his fellow party members didn't protect him from those claims because they believed that he did have anti-semitic tendencies?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:21 PM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism. Once you do that, I promise to take you on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:58 PM

Steve - I rewatched "Black Narcissus" this weekend [BBC catch up]

A classic of post war British cinema,
which could only be permitted to be viewed in the land of 'freedom of speach' America
after their censors cut it to shreds in order to be more tolerable to American over-sensitivites.

This rendered the near perfectly constructed work of cinematic art
so incoherent it lost most meaning, and was near unwatchable.

The same fate befell many other British film makers, writers, and creatives.


.. not much changed then, since 1947...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:20 AM

Bit of a change of subject there pfr. Have i wandered into the wrong room?

Have you seen the American version of the film released in 1947? A quick search only revealed,

"The version of the film originally shown in the United States had scenes depicting flashbacks of Sister Clodagh's life before becoming a nun edited out at the behest of the Legion of Decency."

It would be interesting to compare versions of the film released in the UK and US at the time. I don't know if the UK censors requested any cuts for the original release.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:25 AM

No change of subject, Raindog. Had you wandered into the room a few hours ago you'd have seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

Point of order, Chair.

The majority of the electorate in the UK do not belong to any political party.

I would imagine that the majority of the electorate do not read any party manifesto in great detail.

I also suspect that a lot of the electorate would not agree with every item on the said manifesto, when they decide where to place their X on the ballot paper.

I certainly think that the manority do not give a shit about the plots and counter plots consuming so much of party members time. They want someone to run the government for the benefit of the country not for the benefit of the mps.

Down here, the complaint is that people do not see councillors etc., out and about, talking to people and finding out what they want. I know that covid has played a big part in that, but it is something that Labour need to address if they hope to make any headway.

People are losing interest in voting. I think that we are all agreed that is not a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:14 AM

Something else that i was not aware of.

EES/ETIAS: UK must clarify effects of new EU systems, says politician.

The EU is set to introduce two new electronic travel systems by the end of 2022 that will affect people from the UK, the US and other non-EU countries.

EES/ETIAS

The link is to The Connexion. French news and views. It allows you to read 2 articles before having to subscribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Another point of order, Chair.

Has anyone else been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour revolution

I have watched the first two episodes. I had forgotten that the tensions between the two surfaced so early. The same might be happening again between numbers 10 and 11.

I enjoyed hearing the Mo Mowlam quote "the trouble with Tony is that he thinks he's fucking Jesus"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:59 AM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism.
I made no insinuation, I didn't even raise the matter, you did. I merely queried your assertion that the claims against him were groundless.
Obviously debating the matter is pointless as you would never be able to prove that he wasn't anti-Semitic. I feel that those you mention, Tom Watson, and many others including several senior Labour figures, are likely to know Jeremy Corbyn's nature better than the man in the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:29 AM

They might well have, Nigel, but don't forget that they had an anti-Jezza agenda that was all too plain to see...

Recalling what antisemitism actually means (to me, prejudice, hatred or harm directed at Jewish people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS), look as hard as you like and you will not find a single instance of Jeremy Corbyn displaying or promoting antisemitism. Supporting the Palestinians or criticising the actions of the Israeli regime only count if you have blinkers on.

We've spent a lot of time on this in the past and I could suggest that we leave it for now. However, fire away if that's what you want...

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM

By the way, Nigel, I can't prove that there isn't a colony of seven-legged little blue men living on the rings of Saturn either. Or even that there's no God. Even Richard Dawkins admits to the latter. What we can do is challenge for real evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:40 AM

That’s something we do agree on Steve. I’m disappointed in Nigel for trying to revive that particular Expired Equine.

Sandman, since the tragic events of Friday, and out of respect for a murdered Member of Parliament, I have hitherto deliberately abstained from further comments on this thread, and I have no intention of getting involved in further disputes at this time.

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many, irrespective of their Party, so perhaps, instead of childish attempts to foment further disagreement here, you’d like to show the same kind of respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, that wasn't at the heart of that post. It was about the campaign to get Corbyn out. The false antisemitism claims against him happened to be part of that, that's all. Now I've already suggested once that we could let it drop. Whaddya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 11:21 AM

Raindog - yeah you should have been here last night, for the "Black Narcissus" metaphor to make proper sense...

Not that any of our culled Brit politics posts merit being evaluated
as "near perfectly constructed work of __ art"..

However, we share the frustration of not offending the sensitivities of our American allies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM

Having said that we need to move on from Labour antisemitism I just got this from my friend and daughter in law's Mum, Pam Bromley

I suspect that the ones doing all the shouting about antisemitism wish it really would go away now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

The same website that lost the libel case and ended up costing Unite members so much money. I doubt if they asked for their members to back that action.

Internal disputes can end up costing a party a lot of money and members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM

Yea, but you wont find anything about it on MSM. I wonder why that is...

I know Skwawk is a bit of a dodgy website but this news is true and from the horses mouth. Maybe Jewish Voice for Labour would have been a better choise as they carry the same story. Although they have been accused of antisemitism themselves for being the wrong type of Jews :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:29 PM

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many,
quote backwoodsman
yes i do

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:22 AM

”Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.”

Apologies Nigel, you’re correct, and that fact had gone straight over my head. However, I do maintain that there’s very little point, if any at all, in trying to administer CPR to a deceased nag. I do hope you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:33 AM

I can't remember if I have posted this before. Apologies if I have.

And apologies to Paul.Simon

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

Please feel free to add more :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:34 AM

Well I could hardly have mentioned the campaign to oust Corbyn with mentioning antisemitism, could I! The campaign was the point of the post. I've now tried twice to suggest that we'd be better not resurrecting the antisemitism thang, but hey ho...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:47 AM

Yep. It's going nowhere but as I pointed out in my link on 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM, it is coming back to bite the bum of those who used the accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:47 AM

I didn't vote for this...

Oh yes you did!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:00 PM

I've got heaps of sympathy for her pigs and I hope it works out for her. But if it doesn't I won't be shedding any tears for her. She can go to blazes, along with all the other stupid farmers who voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:55 PM

Couple of book reviews which i read in the last couple of days.

Beyond a Fringe:Tales from a Reformed Establishment Lackey by Andrew Mitchell

Reviewed by Andrew Rawnsley in The Observer

Always Red by Len McCluskey

Reviewed by James Kirkup on Unherd.com

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:42 PM

Well Mr Kirkup is nothing if not neutral...


Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

"Video shows Range Rover pushing Insulate Britain activist at sit-in".

A Guardian item to google. Anyone like to try to justify it? Several people around here did seem to be on the motorists' side, keen to call the protesters names, I seem to recall...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Kate Morgan (a pig farmer)

"Yes, I did vote for Brexit but I can assure everyone that is listening that I did not vote for this. I voted for people to be more patriotic, I voted for the government to look after us and to put border controls in.

“There were a number of things I voted on, I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week – and I was very educated in my vote. I respect other peoples’ vote and they should respect my vote.”

++

That just about sums things up. She voted for Brexit but had little or no idea what that would entail. No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

"and I was very educated in my vote."

I think not.

Let's hope there is no shortage of pigs in blankets this coming christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week 

That could be good. However, I wonder if they were balanced, or all "Leave" meetings. Without the balance, it is not really all that clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM

No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

That is spot on Rain Dog. I have likened it to someone moving house without knowing where they were going. Imagine being dissatisfied with your house and leaving it without any plans for your new one. That is just what these people have agreed to. I can appreciate them being dissatisfied with Europe. But why anyone would agree to a leap in the dark based on assurances by conman and shysters is still beyond me :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:43 PM

The Leave voters didn’t have a clue what they were voting for, because the Leave Campaign was based on nothing more than Populist, anti-EU, racist propaganda, gaslighting, and dog-whistling. No real plan was set out by them, because no real plan existed.

The Remain voters voted for the known, factual status-quo. The Leave voters voted for little more than a hope. Stupid is as stupid does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:54 PM

Adopt a pig..

British families should be offered govt grants to provide emergency long term accomodation
to unwanted surplus pigs.

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer,
and should be housed and brought up in families with true British values.

I'll take two to begin with, we only have a small freezer... ermm.. back yard...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 12:42 PM

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer"

Yebbut will they add to the numbers of greedy people with their snouts in the trough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:09 PM

Hard to believe some people's behaviour.

From the BBC

"A protester has been arrested for a public order offence after a mock gallows was erected outside Parliament.

The action was part of a small anti-vaccine protest held in Parliament Square on Wednesday.

The Metropolitan Police said a man had been taken into custody. The gallows and noose have now been take down.

Conservative MP Michael Fabricant called the incident "crass and unthinking" following the death of Sir David Amess.

Labour's Hilary Benn also called the protest "scandalous", adding: "We should be able to carry out our job without being threatened by people out in Parliament Square."

Police were seen dismantling the gallows shortly after 16:00 BST and a man was seen being put into a police van and taken away from the scene.

Mr Fabricant told the Commons that Piers Corbyn - an anti-lockdown protester and the brother of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn - was part of the group protesting."


BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:31 PM

i would think that the fact that he was related to Jermy Corbyn is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 03:44 PM

absolutely not relevant at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:51 PM

no,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:52 PM

of course

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:53 PM

it isn't

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:53 PM

I actually went to university with Piers, at Imperial College in the early 70s. He was president of the Students' Union. I cringe when I think back to those beer-addled meetings. Oddly, years later when I'd met the future Mrs Steve, she spoke of Piers prowling around halls of residence corridors, trying to sneak out unobserved, slippers and very sloppy jumper in hand...

Piers has done very odd things ever since then, including setting up his weather forecasting system-by-numbers business. He's also a massive climate change denier. I haven't kept up with him on coronavirus, though I can guess...

Piers, chalk. Jeremy, cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:54 PM

I had a conversation tonight with a person who thought that irsh farming was as big a problem as regards climate change as the cutting down of brazilian rain forests, what are your opinions on this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:59 PM

UK well on the way to achieving world class levels of covid infection. Currently daily rate averaging over the whole year would result in 19 million cases. Or is the current rate if increase continues, 100,000 cases per day within a month.

I seem to be a useless little **** as I have failed to personally add to the numbers as I am one of the ignorant ****s who still wears a mask in shops and on public transport. No only have I failed to get infected, I has also failed to infect anyone else. Clearly failing in my duty to my country. So folks lets redouble our efforts to get the rate up to 250,000 per day by Christmas and make the NHS proud of the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM

Now all the scientists and medical advisors are saying we really need to do something urgently, what has happened to the government's follow the science policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:31 AM

I think many people are being complete babies about not wanting to lockdown during the Christmas season. And not go Christmas shopping. Or Christmas parties and events. They'd stage a huge rebellion if 'measures' were re-introduced, because they want to have 'fun'.
They're like toddlers, refusing to put on a mask or have a jab. I can almost imagine them stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum.
Grow up, and live.