BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:38 AM

Here in the Irish Backwoods, I am confronted by somebody who try to tell me that god is all powerful therfore there is no reason to wear a mask in a church, and another one who says in all seriousness that irish farmers do more damage to the climate than brazilians cutting down rainforests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:08 AM

”And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks.”

Here in the Backwoods, the ‘idiots who don’t wear masks’ are in a very sizeable majority. In our local Morrison’s yesterday, I’d estimate 90% of customers weren’t wearing masks or using the provided hand-sanitiser. Virtually all of the floor-staff were also maskless.

It’s absolutely their right not to wear a mask, no doubt about that. Equally, it’s absolutely my right to wear one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 07:13 AM

I think that the main thrust of their exercising responsibility should be a concerted programme of public information and education about the disease, making use of all the media outlets. The emphasis should be on promoting vaccination and careful, responsible behaviour when we're out and about. Anyone remember "Don't die of ignorance?" And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks. I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I get fed up of being criticised for not wearing a mask by the very people who shore up Facebook, etc., by dint of being signed up to such charlatan setups.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:42 AM

If we are all responsible for our own public health policies - not just our own health but the way through our actions we impact on others, shouldn't we all, as individuals, get public health funding.

Johnson and his cohorts have washed their hands of any responsibility for taking a leadership role as it costs them more votes than it saves lives, and by not even bothering to engage, their mismanagement is sliding back under the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:41 AM

I've had the jabs and no-one has advocated vaccination here more than I have. There's a mask in my pocket that hardly ever sees the light of day. The only evidence I've seen for the efficacy of masks is observational, and all of that evidence is beset by confounding factors. I've made two other main points about masks on the "new news" thread: that mask-abuse is widespread and common, just about normal, behaviour that makes masks either next to useless, useless or worse than useless; and that the vast majority of people who you'd like to see obliged to wear masks are wearing them for no useful purpose as they are not infected. Overwhelmingly, vaccines are the best way forward, no doubt about it. After that, good hygiene and being careful about mixing with people. I've looked at a lot of evidence and I've thought about this a lot, and I may well be wrong about masks. Anyone calling me childish or a toddler because I don't wear a mask is predicating that criticism on a level of certainty that is completely unjustified. You simply can't be any more sure that masks are any good than I can be sure that they're not. You may wish to argue the precautionary principle, and that's a respectable point of view. But here's something else: this virus is staying with us for life. It knows how to mutate, make itself more catching and to dance around our vaccines. So I'd like to know for how many more years, or decades, you'd like to see us in masks...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM

My pleasure :-)

I was looking at other fact checkers and Snopes in particular seemed a bit too US centric and covered too broad a range but it did lead me to this article about Strategic Lying

Some fascinating stuff in there. Right early on it states This is a technique – honed by Cummings himself during the Brexit campaign and played masterfully during the 2019 election campaign – in which a politician tells a deliberate lie with the purpose of shifting the news agenda onto his or her preferred territory.

A prime example, and I'm sure at least one of the right wingers on here will miss the point and try to refute this again, is the £350,000,000 bus.

The classic strategic lie was the slogan painted on the side of the Leave campaign’s bus during the Brexit referendum that claimed that the UK sent £350 million a week to the EU. It was a figure that was easily, and frequently, rebutted – not just by Remain campaigners but by all the reputable fact-checking organisations.

But that didn’t matter. Cummings, made no attempt to defend the figure in his blog about the campaign but instead described it as “a brilliant communications ploy” saying that it “…worked much better than I thought it would”.

This seems to be what the world of politics has come to. Manipulation of the masses. Hopefully it will only work until the majority of people see it for what it is. I asked on the thread about Trump when he was likely to face charges over his deliberate manipulation and corruption. I said that I hope it is soon as, hopefully, the same fate will hit Boris!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:39 AM

Thanks Dave, I’ve bookmarked that site. For the record, I like doners, but they don’t like me (don’t ask!).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Or even Tory Donor. I am not sure if he likes doners...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:31 AM

As an aside I often check the 'facts' as reported on social media, including Mudcat, using FullFact

They are usually pretty good and non-biased - Even though they are backed by a Tory doner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:15 AM

When the Blojob-Bunch decided to remove all the rules and restrictions back in June/July, and allowed everything to open up again, Mrs Backwoodsperson and I predicted that it was a blame-shifting exercise and that, when the inevitable ‘next wave’ began, they would blame the populace.

And here we are….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:50 AM

People are the same the world over. We are all human beings, act in pretty much the same way, enjoy the same things and have the same hopes and fears. What we need to ask ourselves is why the rates in the UK are skyrocketing while elsewhere they are under control. There is only one plausible answer - the management of the virus is different.

Of course the party line is that they are not responsible for people actions but that round about sums up the governments attitude. Irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:31 AM

I think many people are being complete babies about not wanting to lockdown during the Christmas season. And not go Christmas shopping. Or Christmas parties and events. They'd stage a huge rebellion if 'measures' were re-introduced, because they want to have 'fun'.
They're like toddlers, refusing to put on a mask or have a jab. I can almost imagine them stamping their feet and throwing a tantrum.
Grow up, and live.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM

Now all the scientists and medical advisors are saying we really need to do something urgently, what has happened to the government's follow the science policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:59 PM

UK well on the way to achieving world class levels of covid infection. Currently daily rate averaging over the whole year would result in 19 million cases. Or is the current rate if increase continues, 100,000 cases per day within a month.

I seem to be a useless little **** as I have failed to personally add to the numbers as I am one of the ignorant ****s who still wears a mask in shops and on public transport. No only have I failed to get infected, I has also failed to infect anyone else. Clearly failing in my duty to my country. So folks lets redouble our efforts to get the rate up to 250,000 per day by Christmas and make the NHS proud of the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:54 PM

I had a conversation tonight with a person who thought that irsh farming was as big a problem as regards climate change as the cutting down of brazilian rain forests, what are your opinions on this

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:53 PM

I actually went to university with Piers, at Imperial College in the early 70s. He was president of the Students' Union. I cringe when I think back to those beer-addled meetings. Oddly, years later when I'd met the future Mrs Steve, she spoke of Piers prowling around halls of residence corridors, trying to sneak out unobserved, slippers and very sloppy jumper in hand...

Piers has done very odd things ever since then, including setting up his weather forecasting system-by-numbers business. He's also a massive climate change denier. I haven't kept up with him on coronavirus, though I can guess...

Piers, chalk. Jeremy, cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:53 PM

it isn't

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:52 PM

of course

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 05:51 PM

no,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 03:44 PM

absolutely not relevant at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:31 PM

i would think that the fact that he was related to Jermy Corbyn is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:09 PM

Hard to believe some people's behaviour.

From the BBC

"A protester has been arrested for a public order offence after a mock gallows was erected outside Parliament.

The action was part of a small anti-vaccine protest held in Parliament Square on Wednesday.

The Metropolitan Police said a man had been taken into custody. The gallows and noose have now been take down.

Conservative MP Michael Fabricant called the incident "crass and unthinking" following the death of Sir David Amess.

Labour's Hilary Benn also called the protest "scandalous", adding: "We should be able to carry out our job without being threatened by people out in Parliament Square."

Police were seen dismantling the gallows shortly after 16:00 BST and a man was seen being put into a police van and taken away from the scene.

Mr Fabricant told the Commons that Piers Corbyn - an anti-lockdown protester and the brother of former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn - was part of the group protesting."


BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 12:42 PM

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer"

Yebbut will they add to the numbers of greedy people with their snouts in the trough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:54 PM

Adopt a pig..

British families should be offered govt grants to provide emergency long term accomodation
to unwanted surplus pigs.

These pigs are just as British as any patriotic Brexiteer,
and should be housed and brought up in families with true British values.

I'll take two to begin with, we only have a small freezer... ermm.. back yard...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:43 PM

The Leave voters didn’t have a clue what they were voting for, because the Leave Campaign was based on nothing more than Populist, anti-EU, racist propaganda, gaslighting, and dog-whistling. No real plan was set out by them, because no real plan existed.

The Remain voters voted for the known, factual status-quo. The Leave voters voted for little more than a hope. Stupid is as stupid does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:01 PM

No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

That is spot on Rain Dog. I have likened it to someone moving house without knowing where they were going. Imagine being dissatisfied with your house and leaving it without any plans for your new one. That is just what these people have agreed to. I can appreciate them being dissatisfied with Europe. But why anyone would agree to a leap in the dark based on assurances by conman and shysters is still beyond me :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week 

That could be good. However, I wonder if they were balanced, or all "Leave" meetings. Without the balance, it is not really all that clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Kate Morgan (a pig farmer)

"Yes, I did vote for Brexit but I can assure everyone that is listening that I did not vote for this. I voted for people to be more patriotic, I voted for the government to look after us and to put border controls in.

“There were a number of things I voted on, I went to a number of meetings – nearly one a week – and I was very educated in my vote. I respect other peoples’ vote and they should respect my vote.”

++

That just about sums things up. She voted for Brexit but had little or no idea what that would entail. No one knew what the terms of our leaving would be.

"and I was very educated in my vote."

I think not.

Let's hope there is no shortage of pigs in blankets this coming christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

"Video shows Range Rover pushing Insulate Britain activist at sit-in".

A Guardian item to google. Anyone like to try to justify it? Several people around here did seem to be on the motorists' side, keen to call the protesters names, I seem to recall...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:42 PM

Well Mr Kirkup is nothing if not neutral...


Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:55 PM

Couple of book reviews which i read in the last couple of days.

Beyond a Fringe:Tales from a Reformed Establishment Lackey by Andrew Mitchell

Reviewed by Andrew Rawnsley in The Observer

Always Red by Len McCluskey

Reviewed by James Kirkup on Unherd.com

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:00 PM

I've got heaps of sympathy for her pigs and I hope it works out for her. But if it doesn't I won't be shedding any tears for her. She can go to blazes, along with all the other stupid farmers who voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:47 AM

I didn't vote for this...

Oh yes you did!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:47 AM

Yep. It's going nowhere but as I pointed out in my link on 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM, it is coming back to bite the bum of those who used the accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:34 AM

Well I could hardly have mentioned the campaign to oust Corbyn with mentioning antisemitism, could I! The campaign was the point of the post. I've now tried twice to suggest that we'd be better not resurrecting the antisemitism thang, but hey ho...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:33 AM

I can't remember if I have posted this before. Apologies if I have.

And apologies to Paul.Simon

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

Please feel free to add more :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:22 AM

”Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.”

Apologies Nigel, you’re correct, and that fact had gone straight over my head. However, I do maintain that there’s very little point, if any at all, in trying to administer CPR to a deceased nag. I do hope you agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:29 PM

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many,
quote backwoodsman
yes i do

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:36 PM

Yea, but you wont find anything about it on MSM. I wonder why that is...

I know Skwawk is a bit of a dodgy website but this news is true and from the horses mouth. Maybe Jewish Voice for Labour would have been a better choise as they carry the same story. Although they have been accused of antisemitism themselves for being the wrong type of Jews :-S

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

The same website that lost the libel case and ended up costing Unite members so much money. I doubt if they asked for their members to back that action.

Internal disputes can end up costing a party a lot of money and members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 01:24 PM

Having said that we need to move on from Labour antisemitism I just got this from my friend and daughter in law's Mum, Pam Bromley

I suspect that the ones doing all the shouting about antisemitism wish it really would go away now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 11:21 AM

Raindog - yeah you should have been here last night, for the "Black Narcissus" metaphor to make proper sense...

Not that any of our culled Brit politics posts merit being evaluated
as "near perfectly constructed work of __ art"..

However, we share the frustration of not offending the sensitivities of our American allies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, that wasn't at the heart of that post. It was about the campaign to get Corbyn out. The false antisemitism claims against him happened to be part of that, that's all. Now I've already suggested once that we could let it drop. Whaddya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 10:15 AM

Backwoodsman:
I clearly stated that I did not restart discussion of Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism. That was Steve Shaw in his post of 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:40 AM

That’s something we do agree on Steve. I’m disappointed in Nigel for trying to revive that particular Expired Equine.

Sandman, since the tragic events of Friday, and out of respect for a murdered Member of Parliament, I have hitherto deliberately abstained from further comments on this thread, and I have no intention of getting involved in further disputes at this time.

I’m sure you will agree that one murdered MP is one too many, irrespective of their Party, so perhaps, instead of childish attempts to foment further disagreement here, you’d like to show the same kind of respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM

By the way, Nigel, I can't prove that there isn't a colony of seven-legged little blue men living on the rings of Saturn either. Or even that there's no God. Even Richard Dawkins admits to the latter. What we can do is challenge for real evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:29 AM

They might well have, Nigel, but don't forget that they had an anti-Jezza agenda that was all too plain to see...

Recalling what antisemitism actually means (to me, prejudice, hatred or harm directed at Jewish people BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS), look as hard as you like and you will not find a single instance of Jeremy Corbyn displaying or promoting antisemitism. Supporting the Palestinians or criticising the actions of the Israeli regime only count if you have blinkers on.

We've spent a lot of time on this in the past and I could suggest that we leave it for now. However, fire away if that's what you want...

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:59 AM

Well we can discuss that if you like, Nigel, though we've been over that countless times. I think that, as you've made the insinuation, it's down to you to give us evidence for his antisemitism.
I made no insinuation, I didn't even raise the matter, you did. I merely queried your assertion that the claims against him were groundless.
Obviously debating the matter is pointless as you would never be able to prove that he wasn't anti-Semitic. I feel that those you mention, Tom Watson, and many others including several senior Labour figures, are likely to know Jeremy Corbyn's nature better than the man in the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Another point of order, Chair.

Has anyone else been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour revolution

I have watched the first two episodes. I had forgotten that the tensions between the two surfaced so early. The same might be happening again between numbers 10 and 11.

I enjoyed hearing the Mo Mowlam quote "the trouble with Tony is that he thinks he's fucking Jesus"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:14 AM

Something else that i was not aware of.

EES/ETIAS: UK must clarify effects of new EU systems, says politician.

The EU is set to introduce two new electronic travel systems by the end of 2022 that will affect people from the UK, the US and other non-EU countries.

EES/ETIAS

The link is to The Connexion. French news and views. It allows you to read 2 articles before having to subscribe.