BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:43 PM

"A success for the EU"?
Yes, they managed to sell UK & Ireland horsemeat labelled as Beef. According to The Guardian it had been going on since at least 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:10 PM

No, there is no contradiction, Nigel. All you have to do is recognise no system is perfect and like the horse meat scandal, there will always be people who want to beat the system if their might be a profit to be made.

(That was a success for the EU, by the way. As I say, there will always be cheats. But they were detected, then traced back to source and the offenders stopped. In the real world, that is successful crime detection.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 03:01 PM

The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

Of course, if you can trust the EU to be keeping its people safe, and many here seem to think the EU is a marvellous institution (and the sun shines out of . . .), then there is no risk in allowing imports from the EU.

Of course, EU supporters will wish to have it both ways.
1) The EU have much better systems than the UK
2) The UK have to protect themselves from imports from the EU.

It can't be both. Which do you prefer?

Honest answers are welcome (but not expected)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:53 PM

Just heard an audio clip on PM (BBC Radio 4), of Rees Mogg saying something along the lines of "this is a benefit of free trade".

Of course we had free trade with the EU but then decided that we did not want that.

We are indeed living in strange times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:20 PM

You are missing that Rees-Mogg is declaring this as a Brexit benefit, Rain Dog. We are exercising our ability to control the border precisely by deciding not to do so.

That's Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 11:11 AM

All going so astonishingly well in those promised Sunlit Uplands, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:21 AM

Take back control but, err, not just yet (again).

From The Guardian

Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time

"The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

The Brexit opportunities minister, Jacob Rees-Mogg, is expected to frame the move as use of the UK’s newfound independent powers to control the trade border since the departure from the EU and the single market."

And

"Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks have been operational in all EU countries with which the UK shares a border, including France, Belgium and Ireland, since the Brexit withdrawal agreement was implemented on 1 January 2021.

The cliff-edge approach left exporters of fish and other fresh food in chaos with a lack of customs agents and veterinary staff to certify whether the produce complied with EU standards. But in the UK post-Brexit checks on fresh food were not implemented for imports, being pushed back in 2020 and on two occasions in 2021.

Under the current border plan, physical checks on meat were due to start on 1 July and on dairy on 1 September, with all remaining foods including fish and composite foods to be subject to checks from 1 November."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 02:56 AM

Yes Nigel, the manifesto is still important. It was drawn up by the Labour Party, not by Jeremy Corbyn. There will be a new one for the next election but until then it is all we have to work on. The Tories have a massive overall majority. Anything that the Labour Party say or do can simply be shut down so complaining that they are ineffective is just deflecting focus from the failings of those in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:34 AM

Dave:
"The 2019 manifesto is available."
Is that the blueprint that we should believe still applies to the Labour Party? Jeremy Corbyn was the Labour Party leader at that time. Is it still an important document to the Labour Party?
And if it isn't, where is the replacement (for the manifesto)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:08 AM

Nigel, if democracy is to work, there is little more important than the honesty of our politicians. I think the Labour Party is doing a splendid job just giving Bozo enough rope to hang himself and his sycophants. As they are in a minority opposition any suggestions they do make are purely academic at the moment. The full 2019 manifesto is still available. The next one will be available before the next election. Whatever else it contains, I am pretty sure that making politics honest again will be included.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 10:26 AM

Yes, Labour seem to be making a Big Thing about 'partygate'
But don't seem to know what to do about anything else (apart from supporting the government's moves)

Partygate is an ideal distraction for the Labour Party, and as it keeps getting 'kicked down the road' they can continue to make a big thing of it for months to come.
But at some point they may have to start suggesting what they would do about more important matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 05:51 AM

Would you care to clarify that, Nigel? Are we still talking partygate or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 05:32 AM

Very true, so let's hope that Labour make a Big Thing of it...

Labour are making a Big Thing of it.
Perish the thought that they should come up with any positive suggestions.
A) We'll vote with the government on this
B) (with hindsight) That didn't go well, we would have done it differently, but we're not going to tell you what we would have done differently.
C) We don't think that will work, what we should be doing is . . .
Oh, sorry, the current Labour Party don't seem to do 'C'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 02:29 PM

I don't think many of us will be surprised, Bonzo!

That you can vote for whoever you choose is something I think we will all support.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 01:15 PM

My local election postal vote has been sent, and I am more than pleased to have voted against the Croydon Labour rot!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 08:03 AM

Very true, so let's hope that Labour make a Big Thing of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 07:52 AM

It could work against the Tories, Steve. People do tend to imagine the worsrt unless they know otherwise. Hopefully after the shit hits the fan for the umpteenth time and the Tories take a hammering in the locals, Bozo will resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 06:14 AM

The Metropolitan Police are refusing to disclose information about further partygate penalty notices until after the local elections. I think this is a highly political decision and is thoroughly reprehensible. I think that in a democracy we should be entitled to as much relevant information about politicians as is available before being asked to vote. I wonder who made this decision, and who influenced it. Yes I know it's merely local elections, but let's not try to kid ourselves that the national picture doesn't heavily influence local voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 02:10 PM

I know, Backswoodman. I was trying to highlight the mental gymnastics needed for Patel to claim she wasn't misleading.

I am sure she hopes no one will mention this in Parliament, and they probably won't because they don't want to lose focus. But if they do, my advice to her would be to 'fess up immediately, however much that grates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:41 PM

Well of course I was playing devil’s advocate, and teasing with a mischievous suggestion as to what Not-So-Priti Patel’s defence might be, DMcG! ;-)

In fact, I completely agree with your view, but I’m sure there are others - a few of them possibly on this forum - who would defend Patel through thick and thin for no better reason than that she’s a Tory Rightie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:19 PM

Now this getting a bit metaphysical. Surely they are asylum seekers the instant they step outside their front door to head to another country whether that is legally recognised or not? And in that spirit the key paragraph saya being in the dingy and shouting "I seek asylum" requires the interceptor to bring them to the UK. And in that time between rescue and landing they are apparently seeking asylum but not an asylum seeker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 12:57 PM

When a person is sitting in a rubber dinghy in the Channel, he/she is not an ‘asylum-seeker’ - asylum can only be sought once the person has his/her feet actually on UK soil. So, in that respect, she spoke the truth - pushback won’t be used against asylum-seekers because, at the point at which their dinghy would be turned back, they have not sought asylum, and they are nothing more than migrants.

That’s nit-picking, of course, but I thought I would save Nigel the trouble. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 12:33 PM

Back in October I said here that I thought that the UK would not 'pushback' any migrant dinghies in the Channel.

It would appear that they never intended to do it, though some might well have wanted to do it.

From The Guardian

Priti Patel accused of misleading parliament over refugee pushbacks

"The home secretary has been accused of misleading parliament after a high court ruling revealed that unpublished parts of a controversial policy to push back migrant dinghies in the Channel said the tactic would not be used against asylum seekers.

The pushbacks policy was finalised in autumn 2021, yet in January this year Priti Patel said pushing back migrant boats was “absolutely still policy” when she gave evidence to the Lords justice and home affairs committee. She has been accused of giving that evidence even though she knew about the unpublished clauses in the policy not to use pushbacks against asylum seekers."

Less a case of misleading parliament, more a case of misleading some tory supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 09:39 AM

Wes Streeting strikes me as yer typical Essex-Boy, lots of 'norff 'n' sarrff' and noise, but he's not afraid to challenge the Tory Posh-Boys, and he almost always gives better than he gets. Do I like his persona? Not much. Do I like his fire and willingness to trade punches with the Posh-Boys? Oh yes I do!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 09:04 AM

I fear that most Tory politicos will regard Boris Bunter as the only viable winner of the next election. I fear they may be right.

Stodgy Starmer has put on some better performances recently, but mainly inside the Westminster bubble only. I note that Wes Streeting has almost become Labour's cuttin' 'n' thrustin' dynamic poster boy. I can't stand him myself, but the charm offensive (and sure-footed gift of the gabness) was on show big-time last night on Newscast (for night-owls only). The three presenters certainly fell for the charm and, cosily, gave him free rein. Labour do like to shove him to the front...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:51 AM

I'm sure you're right, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:28 AM

I agree that whoever replaces Johnson - if that happens - will find distancing themselves from the Johnson regime electorally desirable (except for Brexit itself) so those who have been most vocal in defence of Johnson may find themselves outside the cabinet. Dorries, Rees-Mogg and Shapps amongst others. And it would not entirely surprise me if Rory Stewart and a few others who were jettisoned were invited back into the fold a as s candidates or advisors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 08:07 AM

I’m pretty sure The Lying Toad’s days are numbered. Reading (and listening) between the lines, I’m thinking rumblings of dissent are growing in the ranks of the Tory Party, and he’ll be out on his big fat arse in the not-too-distant.

And I have a strong suspicion that his replacement won’t be any of The Usual Suspects - Gove, Sunak, Patel, Rees-Mogg, Truss - but will be a relative ‘outsider’. I keep seeing Hunt’s name mentioned as one of the quietly-lurking threats to any of those becoming Johnson’s replacement and, if he becomes PM, I can foresee that The Usual Suspects will be toast as far as Cabinet membership goes. Pretty sure that Hunt would be looking to re-establish good relations with the EU, to become ‘The Man Who Saved Brexit’, so Brexiteers would be likely to get short shrift if and when he sets up his Cabinet.

I could be way, way off the mark, but I live in hopes…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 07:52 AM

Are you still defending the lying toad Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 06:59 AM

Or more precisely, that was the point of making the 22 Apr 22 - 01:51 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 06:56 AM

My interest was in making sure people knew there are not laypeople on the committee that will be investigating, and that it does have a Conservative majority. No more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 05:54 AM

But I was responding to your comment saying that Boris was being referred to the standards committee for which I gave the make-up to correct your claim of a Conservative bias.
You had not said that he was being referred to the privileges committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 01:51 AM

This related back to a comment Nigel made earlier about the composition of the committee:


Who sits on [the privileges committee]?
A cross-party group of seven MPs make up the committee. They are the exact same members as sit on the standards committee, given the two used to be combined until 2010.

But unlike the standards committee, the privileges committee does not have any extra lay members – independent people who are not politicians – appointed to sit on it.


(From a Guardian 'explainer')

Given Chris Bryant recused himself, it is not clear to me at the moment whether in the case the committee will have six members, or whether a temporary replacement of Bryant will be made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 06:13 PM

To be is to do - Socrates

To do is to be - Sartre

Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra

:-)

Now back to the fray...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 06:10 PM

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

Samuel L Jackson. Pulp Fiction

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:42 PM

"Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations"

Thank you King James!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 02:45 PM

Oh do come along, Mr. Baker - don't beat about the bush, spit it out man, tell us what you really think!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 02:25 PM

Steve Baker said "I do not like forgiving the Prime Minister. My spirit is much more full of wrath and vengeance. I feel much more Ezekiel 7:3 about this issue, and I invite everybody to look that up"

For those which can't be bothered here it is:
New  International Version
The end is now upon you, and I will unleash my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 01:29 PM

It was interesting to see that MPs were allowed to refer to Johnson as a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 11:53 AM

That was a fairly long Parliamentary debate to set through, but worth it in some ways. I regret that it was passed unopposed, but I can see why the Conservatives might think that the least damaging option.

Attendance is often poor at these events but it looks like for quite a long time there were only 5 MPs on the government benches. Even so, there were very few people who spoke in support of the PM.

There a few rather odd theological discussions, with Steve Baker throwing chapter and verse into the debate from both the Old and New Testaments, then later Chris Bryant riffing on the Biblical nature of forgiveness and how it does not mean freedom from consequence.

Many of the speeches drifted off topic despite admonishments from the Speaker(s) into Johnson's wider dishonesty rather than the deliberately narrow instances listed in the motion and quite a few were largely reading out the problems their constituents had. These are important, of course, but not actually to do with the strict motion.

The fact the motion passed unopposed gave a somewhat anticlimatic end to the debate, but I think we just not move to a new scene in the drama.

Opinions from anyone else who watched it are welcomed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 06:20 PM

It looks as if the composition of the select committee may be irrelevant, if Newsnight's report is correct: they suggest there is an intention to amend Labour's motion to essentially remove all reference to having the committee investigate whether Johnson misled the house, but instead to comment on Ukraine and/or the cost of living.

It looks like we are reliant on the speaker to decide if such an amendment should be selected.   However, as we have yet to see either the motion or any suggested amendments, we may be getting ahead of ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:25 PM

Does it have a Conservative majority?
It has four Conservative members, two Labour, one SNP, and seven 'lay members' whose political leanings don't appear to be listed: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:07 PM

I hear the Whips are saying Tories should vote against referring Johnson to the standards committee because it has a Labour chair.

You would think they would be more confident as it has a Conservative majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 07:23 AM

Thanks Jon, I had the name on the tip of my typing-finger but just couldn’t quite get it! His Linkifier is a nice piece of work, much smoother and friendlier than the basic Mudcat Blickifier.

I’ll check out the link you gave above.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 06:25 AM

BWM, DaveRo wrote the link maker you use. He also provides Mudcat Browser Tools

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 06:15 AM

Law and order can be maintained in two ways: by common consent, where as citizens we agree to follow rules for the common good, or imposed by brute force. If the self-ordained 'upper classes; exempt themselves from law and order can they reasonably expect the rest of the population to consent to live by the same rules themselves. It is clear that law (applied to the lower masses, and not the elite masters) can only be enforced - so if this isn't descent into fascism, what is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 05:27 AM

Peter Hennessy, a crossbench peer and professor of history, was speaking about this on Broadcasting House on Radio 4 this morning. He sees partygate and the Johnson lies surrounding it as a fundamental threat to our constitution. Not for the first time, Johnson plays fast and loose with the Ministerial Code, not seeing breaches of it as resigning issues. Hennessy is an angry man and it's a good listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 04:47 AM

If breaking covid rules is a non issue (as the tory gutter press suggest), then why, when Johnson was standing on his podium making announcements about rules we have to follow did he not announce to the public that he had no intention of following the law himself, or at least say that he was still attending social gatherings but that did not matter because we are inferior species to the tory party master race and that it is our duty to obey our betters and not question what they do or don't do?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 07:53 PM

I can just tell you which Guardian article I got my quote, or opinion, or whatever, from. Up to you whether you look at the whole thing. I'll always tell you why I've posted it. I don't like links much because they all too often exonerate the poster from properly dissecting and discussing the content. I repeat: if a link is posted without support from the poster, I will not read it. This is a forum for discussing what we all think, not what some remote journalist thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 22 - 04:52 PM

I just thought that, as it’s a more user-friendly hack than the built-in Blickifier for creating properly functioning links, Steve might get on with it better - it’s certainly no more complicated than a block copy/paste from an outside source into a post and, for the reasons stated, it produces a much more satisfactory result.

IMHO, of course - OMMV.