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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 26 May 21 - 05:57 AM Cummings just stated that Hancock should have been fired for repeatedly lying to the cabinet and the public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 May 21 - 06:44 AM An nteresting opinion-piece from Attila The Stockbroker on his FB page this morning. His posts are ‘shareable’, but I’ve C&P’d because I’m not comfortable linking to FB, for fear of giving away others’ identities, but if you’re a FB-user, you can find ATS’s page via the search utility. I have to say that I can find no fault with anything he says... ”Now I don’t trust Dominic Cummings further than I can throw him. Obviously. But however you interpret his description of the Home Office as ‘terrifyingly shit’, his assertion that lockdown should have started in the first week of March, and his description of officials committed to ideas of herd immunity, this is a government which has presided over a national catastrophe on a scale which was manifestly avoidable. And the fact that its approval ratings (in England only, that goes without saying) are at something approaching 50% speaks volumes about the utter servility of most of our media and the abject level of understanding vast swathes of people have about issues of, quite literally, life and death. A lack of understanding celebrated by the Tories’ shameless, overprivileged charlatan cabal as ‘the British people are fed up with experts’ and ‘emotions are more important than facts’ - while calling us, ordinary people who take the trouble to think for ourselves, ‘an elite’. Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us. And by ‘us’ I’m not talking about these fabled ‘metropolitan liberals’. I’m talking about people like my best mate Steve, who grew up in an Essex newtown, left school at 16 and is one of the most intelligent, clear sighted people I have ever met. According to the Tories, he’s ‘elite’ too, as are millions of us like jinx To not be part of ‘the Tories’ fake ‘left wing elite’ these days you have to be a cap-doffing forelock tugger grovelling to their real right wing one! This is a government of contemptible charlatans who should be thrown out of office and, in many cases, put on trial.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 26 May 21 - 07:05 AM "There was not even a plan to bury all the bodies ......" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 May 21 - 08:54 AM "Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us." My dad, going back decades, always railed against this, calling it the "cult of the philistine." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 26 May 21 - 10:56 AM At Poly in the early 80s, I had a lecturer with a toxic maladjusted personality.. She'd been one of the original late 1960s Marxist workers revolutionary uprising students.. In 1983 she was a comfortably well off middle-aged middle-class ideology lecturer.. Whatever her reason, she targeted me for a lot of her spiteful bitterness. Once I innocently and naively questioned something she said in a seminar, suggesting she hadn't explained it clearly for us to take in and understand.. Her immediate reaction was to damn me with the accusation that I was "anti-intellectual"...!!!??? Then continue to bully me for remainder of the year, trying to destroy my confidence, hinting I should resign from my degree.. So naturally, I have long since been wary of that kind of bitter academic 'socialist'... Btw, I spent that summer vacation working at Butlins to get my head back together grounded in proper working-class culture.. F*** the elitist academics... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 May 21 - 12:50 PM Butlins? F***ing BUTLINS!?!?!?! We could only dream of going on holiday, never mind to Butlins. Nowt working class about them. Upper class rich place as far as us guttersnipes were concerned... :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 May 21 - 01:41 PM Anyone watching the (s)cummings interviews BTW? It seems he is tying his colours to the Sunak mast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 26 May 21 - 02:07 PM Dtg - you should have saved the Butlins coupons out the newspapers before you wiped yer bum with 'em... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 26 May 21 - 03:36 PM Well that was a more interesting 7 hours of TV han most that's been on recently. Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: peteglasgow Date: 29 May 21 - 01:55 PM well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 May 21 - 02:56 PM well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars That pre-supposes that the current government are liars. The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 29 May 21 - 03:02 PM Cummings is a shit of the highest order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 May 21 - 03:07 PM From: Bonzo3legs - PM Date: 29 May 21 - 03:02 PM Cummings is a shit of the highest order. Amen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: The Sandman Date: 29 May 21 - 04:07 PM could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 May 21 - 04:25 PM From: The Sandman - PM Date: 29 May 21 - 04:07 PM could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government? Likewise, could you explain your question? Is it aimed at me, or at Bonzo3legs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: The Sandman Date: 29 May 21 - 04:48 PM both of you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: The Sandman Date: 29 May 21 - 04:53 PM Cummings appears to be backing rishi sunak as the next leader , i thought you might be in support of that, or do you think that johnson is your most likely to win the next election |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 May 21 - 06:03 PM Cummings is everything bad that has been said in this thread. But the challenge is to show that his narrative is a pack of lies if you don't like him. I think you might have an uphill struggle there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 May 21 - 05:26 AM That pre-supposes that the current government are liars. For the umpteenth time https://boris-johnson-lies.com/ I shall not tire of posting that link while you are in denial |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 May 21 - 06:36 AM "The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month' .. seems to who...??? Since when has shit ever been a tasty favour...!!!??? It's more like watching a pack of cornered plague rats turning on each other tooth and claw in a desperate fight for self preservation... The 'left' are the rat catchers waiting to finish off the survivors... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 May 21 - 07:35 AM cummings is a spoilt shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 30 May 21 - 07:58 AM The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'. That is not what I am seeing. Most of comments I have seen from those on the left are roughly the same as mine: Cummings is untrustworthy and has probably been extremely selective in what he chose not to say, as well as what he said. There are, however, lots of ways of checking various parts of his remarks: videos, Hansard entries, the experience of care homes and many others. So we do not rely on what Cummings said in isolation. Conversely, I have yet to see an argument from the other side that is much more than "Cummings cannot be trusted." If there is a detailed account anywhere it support the government's statements. For reference here is the relevant Hansard entry of the discussion on 19th May 2020. I would pay particular attention to which statements are in the present tense (i.e. saying they were happening at the time) and which are in the future tense (saying they are planned but not happening). I would also suggest people think about phrases like "Fourthly, we are supporting care homes to get the PPE that they need." It does not, for example, mean the homes actually have the PPE they need or are getting it. You could claim a leaflet describing PPE was such support if you felt inclined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 30 May 21 - 10:15 AM Cummings is a self-serving, despicable piece of work, but notwithstanding, even if the motivation for the evidence he brought to the select committee is nothing other than covering his own back and/or stabbing is former /colleagues' in the back once they ceased to be of use to him his does not in anyway diminish the chain of incompetence, corruption and possible criminal negligence by the Prime Minister and his government and cohorts. If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 May 21 - 11:59 AM Sometimes very bad people can do very good things.. Whether or not that was the intended outcome... .. my favourite Western movies tend to be the ones where it's difficult to distinguish all along which characters were really the goodies or the baddies.. As long as the climactic shootout ends with the despicable Johnson outlaw gang being shot to pieces and run out of town by cold cruel snake eyes Clint Cummings... Cummings limps off wounded into the sunset. But he lives to ride again.. .. though on which side of good or evil ? can the downtrodden frontier townsfolk ever truly know...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 May 21 - 12:55 PM "If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society." No no no no no no no, what absolute rubbish, to what are you comparing them ??? Answer nothing, because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history. Ignorance of what - the unknown??? You are talking absolute bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 30 May 21 - 01:00 PM The consequence of that argument, Bonzo, is that Johnson could have done anything all they liked, or nothing at all, and you could still say they have no responsibility because there is nothing to compare it to. There are things to compare it to, though. Some are actual, like actions taken by other countries, and some are mathematical models, but each can help us decide whether decisions were good or bad, timely or untimely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 30 May 21 - 01:06 PM Bonz - we know it's your knee jerk reaction to defend your party.. fair enough.. But have you already forgotten how much you disliked Johnson when he became leader.. I think I remember you had some rather justifiably crude things to say about him back then.. We accept you are a loyal tory, but come on you can't be that hostile to everything a lefty alleges, no matter how true it might be... In your private thoughts, you must accept the gang of cronies Johnson brought him with him are too corrupt and incompetent, compared to the good old fashioned tory moderates who were permanently driven out your party... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 May 21 - 01:25 PM because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history. Bollocks. "Spanish" flu after WW1 was every bit as much a pandemic as this one. It just didn't have an internet full of knobheads spinning conspiracy theories! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Geoff Wallis Date: 30 May 21 - 01:47 PM HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Jeri Date: 30 May 21 - 02:19 PM "HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa." Maybe you should look up the meaning of "PANdemic"? Also, HIV/Aids isn't passed through the air, and it's a lot less deadly these days. Gnome, you think the Spanish Flu was recent!? Y'all ever feel like you're working too hard to pick a fight? Yeah, I'm out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 May 21 - 03:55 PM "HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa." If only Africa had more mosquito nets then every year we could save millions of mosquitoes from dying needlessly of aids!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: The Sandman Date: 30 May 21 - 04:30 PM i predict priti patel will be next leaderof the conservatives |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 30 May 21 - 05:15 PM I think she could be less of a disaster than Gove!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: The Sandman Date: 31 May 21 - 02:15 AM what was it she did connected with israel that was unethical? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 31 May 21 - 02:41 AM Yes, Jeri. WW1 is recent history as opposed to ancient history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 31 May 21 - 03:44 AM It is off topic, I am afraid, but DtG's question raises an interesting question. In terms of medical knowledge and ability to cure illnesses, is WW1 closer to Ancient Greece than it is to today? I think a case could be made. But I won't here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 May 21 - 08:16 AM .. and not forgetting we survived "Mad Cow Disease" in our lifetime... .. how many undiagnosed cases of that might explain all the crazy political decisions of the last decade or so...!!!???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 31 May 21 - 08:42 AM Compare alleged "crazy political decisions" of this government with "crazy political decisions" of last labour government!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 May 21 - 09:26 AM If HIV-Aids occurs on a considerable scale across multiple countries within the continent of Africa, then the term pandemic is perfectly appropriate. And I checked that across mulitiple dictionaries. The flu outbreak of 1918 is recent enough for us still to take lessons from. Being properly prepared as a nation for a sudden pandemic is a lesson we should have learned but didn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 May 21 - 09:27 AM ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...??? Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 21 - 11:00 AM ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...??? Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths... Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did. It is arguable that more may have been saved if Boris had made different decisions, but it is also likely we will never know. Boris is attempting to balance the protection of human life (or even just delaying deaths to protect the NHS) with protecting the UK as a viable economy. He also has to look at deaths caused (indirectly) by lockdown etc. causing missed diagnoses of terminal illnesses. Boris is not perfect, but he is handling a job for which few others would wish to take the responsibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 May 21 - 11:24 AM Nigel - basically your reply is far too reminiscent of the standard denial mode of American anti gun control apologists and lobbyists... "Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did." .. well covid couldn't have had a more helpful sidekick and enabler than boris on it's British homeland mass killing spree... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 31 May 21 - 11:30 AM Evening Standard on 8th June 2020: Matt Hancock insisted “there just isn’t a trade-off” between the economy and health as he unveiled his plans to protect social care services. The Health Secretary denied there was any trade-off between protecting the economy and protecting health as the government gradually eases lockdown restrictions. Seems he disagrees with you, Nigel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Geoff Wallis Date: 31 May 21 - 11:50 AM Thanks, Steve. As someone who actually has 'O' level Greek and, more importantly, worked on public health strategy in central London for several years, I'm well aware of the meaning of pandemic, unlike Jeri it seems. Literally, it means the whole (or all the) people. It does not have to apply to the entire world population, but can be used to refer to a continent or a bloc of countries. My point in raising the issue was that there is more than just one pandemic currently affecting the health of a people at this present time. The Cemtral and West African outbreaks of the Ebola virus in 2014-2016 were rightly termed a pandemic because of the large number of people affected. For the record, Ebola virus disease has a fatality rate of 50%, somewhat higher than the Covid-19 mortality rate. Apologies for diverting this thread. Returning to UK politics, does anyone have any theories why Cummings's seven-hour marathon a) flattered Sunak, or b) didn't mention Gove at all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 21 - 11:59 AM It seems that the Evening Standard headline disagrees with me. The actual quote in the article is a little more nuanced: “It is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health. A second spike would be hugely damaging to the economy. Of course, there are arguments over timing. “But ... things are moving in the right direction, that is why we are able to say that coronavirus is in retreat.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 31 May 21 - 12:46 PM Ah, so "it is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health" actually means "Of course we think there is a trade off". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: gnu Date: 31 May 21 - 12:57 PM John Stewart on Scottish independence... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 31 May 21 - 12:58 PM This video is of relevance. I do not think the "nuances" mean we disregard the first few sentences. I interpret them as meaning that we can choose things to help the economy within the constraint of the first sentences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 May 21 - 01:02 PM As someone with an "Excellent" level ability to search the internet, An outbreak is called an epidemic when there is a sudden increase in cases. As COVID-19 began spreading in Wuhan, China, it became an epidemic. Because the disease then spread across several countries and affected a large number of people, it was classified as a pandemic. From the much-battered Centers for Disease Control (CDC). Ebola was an "Outbreak" in a few countries. Nasty as it was, it didn't spread all over the place.
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: punkfolkrocker Date: 31 May 21 - 01:15 PM Are some Americans getting a bit bored with their own threads today...????? |