BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:44 PM

Well, Dick, I've always said to Mrs Steve, who hates the big money in Premier League football, that at least the players and the fans aren't fighting wars while they're engaged in the beautiful game. Turning the forum into a temporary Mad Hatter's tea party might just be a similarly good notion. I used to say the same to Dale Wisely, but he was far too impatient. Leave it to us and we will defuse spats, guaranteed. Just sack the fascists first, that's all. They're easy enough to spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 05:14 PM

I am, Steve. I dunno about you. You dress like a hard Yorkshireman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

I may dress like a hard Yorkshireman, Dave, but at least when I make an omelette I don't nick the eggs first...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:44 PM

I've ordered a cotton boiler-suit for winter, you won't get me in a onesie...

Unfortunately it's held up, probably in a container somewhere between here and China.
Amazon can't specify a delivery date...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:57 PM

Onesies tend to make your crutchal area look a lot bigger. You'll be having the women asking themselves whether you're either an aspiring wooftah ballet dancer or whether you just have an unusually big lunch pack. They look great on the right woman, however...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 06:58 PM

...Shall I get me coat...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 02:50 AM

You'd have to buy one first!

Best buy for ages at a charity shop yesterday. Craghoppers zip-off hiking pants. £3!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:58 AM

a British MP has been stabbed to death and no one bothers to discuss it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:16 AM

Oh Sandman, thank goodness you posted that! So shocking and tragic. I can't bear to think of the pain his poor family must be going through. It also means that security for all MPs will have to be tightened.
Apparently, Police are now saying the murderer was known to them as an Islamic extremist who had been sent on that 'Prevent' course. A Somalian by birth.
Sir David Amess was apparently much-liked in his constituency - cheery, helpful and always doing his best. His murder is absolutely dreadful for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:39 AM

yes whilst i disagreed with a lot of his policies.
my ex brother in law who lives in southend posted this on facebook
Dear David, politically you and my family had our differences, but that's OK, that's what democracy is all about. As a human being my parents respected you enormously, they enjoyed your visits to their home and at the many meetings that my father chaired. I certainly will never forget the time when you broke away from your tour of Southend Hospital to speak with my mother who was in crisis following her stroke. I still have the letter that you wrote to our family for my mothers funeral.
This was no way for your life to end, my thoughts are with your family and may you rest in peace.
I concur

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:49 AM

He was an anti-abortionist and pro-hanging. I have trouble getting my head round that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:53 AM

yes, so do I, BUT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN STABBED TO DEATH.
Is it indicative of a failure of the democratic political system-, when people take violent or non violent political direct action

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:38 AM

Of course not. My last post was simply pointing stuff out about him. No criticism intended. When someone dies we can be respectful for the sake of his family and friends, but we don't have to canonise him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:48 AM

Incidentally, Dick, I was the first to raise the killing of the MP (at 10.48am Mudcat time yesterday), and Dave responded, including a link with his post. There were several more mentions after that. So you pop up, what, seventeen hours later, complaining that we can't be "bothered" to discuss it. I could politely suggest that you should be "bothered" to read through the thread first before deciding to upbraid the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

Yep, nine posts referring to the death of the MP before your criticism that we can't be bothered to discuss it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

no one was canonising. you seem to be more intent on discussing yourself and Dave the Gnome,
Senoufou seems to have been under the same impression as myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:32 AM

You both got the wrong impression then. Read the earlier posts and then say we couldn't be bothered. Just because we can have another conversation after doesn't indicate any lack of care or respect. In fact, choosing to use this sad event to start a fight says a lot about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 10:45 AM

Another thing, Dick. Over five hours after I first lamented the death of the MP, and after several people had posted comments about it, your very next post to the thread berated us for acting like the mad Hatter's tea party and didn't mention the death at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:05 PM

Hold on now Dick..

It's not definitively decided we've finished disagreeing on who gets the last word in
on the the last petty squabble...???

So wait your turn before starting a new one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:06 PM

Anyone tried using the bus lately? Every other bus during the day - er um doesn't do the bussyness. I am tempted to say "not a sausage".

Where I am the bus drivers are de-camping to HGV and with Johnny Foreigner deserting us it is a slow process to replace. So in that environment (plus 'king Boris entreating us to be a high wage country) wouldn't you refuse overtime, and threaten a strike next week over pay? It is a lever to pull, and it is geared high right now.

Stagecoach knew what was coming the minute the Brexshit plopped. They want to sell the business. Don't seem to be any takers yet.

Yes I could drive, but that would be guilt-edged luxury.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:11 PM

Not in these parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 01:57 PM

Just what you should be concentrating on at this time.

Labour spending more on legal battles than campaigning, say sources

"Labour is spending significantly more of its cash on fighting its legal battles than on political campaigning, sources have told the Guardian, after lawyers for the party opened a new front in the party’s legal turmoil this week.

Party sources said last year campaigning was Labour’s fourth-highest spend, behind costs linked to legal cases.

This week’s naming of five of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest staffers in legal action alleging responsibility for leaking a contentious report marked a new chapter in the war between two sides of the party. The report, which contained private WhatsApp messages, aimed to demonstrate bitter factionalism among staff but has prompted legal action from many of those named.

One senior source described the situation between the two sides of the party as “full-blown lawfare” – comparing it to how competing governments in South American countries have attempted to take down each other."

And

"The five have had their previous legal advice paid by Unite and although the union has a new general secretary, sources said there was an expectation that support would continue. All are members of the union.

One senior party source said they believed Unite “would end up costing us more than they have given us in funding in the last 10 years”."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 02:49 PM

It's ridiculous. When they should be concentrating on ridding us of this awful regime, they spend their time and money fighting each other. It's no good blaming one side either. It takes two to tango!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:22 PM

We'd at least hope the lawyers show appreciation for the pots of £££s,
and vote Labour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:27 PM

”It's ridiculous. When they should be concentrating on ridding us of this awful regime, they spend their time and money fighting each other. It's no good blaming one side either. It takes two to tango!”

Exactly what I’ve said several times on this thread, only to be berated, excoriated, and lectured by our resident Lefties, effectively accusing me of, amongst other things, ‘telling those inconvenient Lefties to shut up/go away’ which, of course, was made-up shit and predictable, shameless word-twisting.

Glad some of you are getting it at long last.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:32 PM

Gosh.

I worked in three different secondary schools as a teacher over many years. I was unfortunate to have never worked under a strong headteacher. The upshot was the same in every case: the middle orders in the staffroom always developed into a sort of local mafia who ended up sowing discord as they tried to run the show.

I've been saying ever since he was elected that Starmer was a rotten choice. He is determined to marginalise the left, whilst at the same time proving to be completely ineffective as an opponent of the worst prime minister this country has ever had. What I saw in my schools is what's happening in the Labour Party. A weak leader leaving a vacuum for ne'er-do-wells from both factions scrapping it out, fully in the public gaze. We can all decide for ourselves which faction has the right of it (I know what I think). But the problem is the leader, one hundred percent. The antisemitism business is confected, and Jeremy's removal was confected. Starmer has deliberately injected poison and he is reaping a whirlwind because, basically, he's no leader.

By the way, just down the road from my school in east London Mrs Steve was teaching in a large primary school in Stepney, run by a headteacher who espoused inclusiveness, respect, vision and strength. She's now in her 80s, she's one of our dearest friends and she has the Freedom of the City of London. I was always jealous of the missus...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 03:49 PM

Well I don't "get it." Aren't we supposed to learn from history? Through all the years that I've been involved in trade unionism and interested in politics, the right wing of Labour has tried to sideline the left. Two things about that: the right-wing media will always make bloody sure that our spats are played out in public. And it will never work. The left are the heart and soul of Labour and will never go away. Never. The left were in fallow under Blair, mostly. And guess what: we got a warmongering Tory-lite leader who got into bed with Bush and who widened the gap between rich and poor, and whose policies of next to no regulation led to the crash of 2008. Well some of us were never happy with that particular brand of "Labour." Maybe you were. But the thing is that we're not going to get even that back. Not in a million years, not under this leader. All that remains is for you to decide who to blame for that. But at the end of the day even that doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:07 PM

What a horrible little man, an intellectual pygmy a little petty,tiny minded shit stirrer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 04:10 PM

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM

No,John. I think it's you that is not getting it. The fault is not the "lefties". It is in-fighting on all sides. If you hadn't noticed, the left no longer hold the leadership, yet the fighting continues. Does that not tell you something? And, no, I'm not blaming the right of the party either. As I said, it takes 2 to tango. What we have had though are 2 ineffective leaders. Neither have brought the party together. Neither have stood up to the false anti semitism claims. Neither used the ineptitude and corruption of this present shower to their advantage. Little wonder members are resigning in their droves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 06:17 PM

Yes Dave, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying - that it’s time for all sides to stop fighting each other and work together to defeat this dreadful bunch of Tory crooks. I’ve never taken sides, I’ve simply said that both sides should unite under the elected leader. I said it when Corbyn was the leader embattled with the Right of the Party, and I say it now Starmer’s the leader embattled with the Left. The Party is bigger than any individual or group of individuals, and should be put before personalities and inter-factional suabbles. I didn’t believe Corbyn was the right guy for leader, and I don’t think Starmer is either, but I really don’t give a flying fuck who the leader is, I just want the Tories out, and Labour in.

Until that happens, the Labour Party is failing those who most need a Labour government, and the in-fighting between the ‘my way or the Highway’ factions is giving the Tories a free-pass to being in power for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 07:32 PM

I really hate to keep on saying this, but "calls for unity" in Labour are always, ALWAYS, code for ,"Oi you lefties, keep quiet and let us responsible middle-of-the-roaders hold sway. We can handle this!" I've seen it in trade unions and I've seen it in my bloody party (I'm still a member...). It's always the same. And I've seen it for half a bloody century. Thing is, you middle-of-the-roaders can't handle it. You are not people of principle. You are people of shameless pragmatism. Elect Labour, no matter how bloody Tory-lite they are, at all costs. The left in Labour are the true people of principle. Last time we ditched principle, we got Blair. Frankly, I'd far sooner keep my principles and lose elections. Yes, really. And I don't believe for a minute that that has to be the case. We almost got there in 2017. I know that "almost" isn't bloody good enough, but neither were Brown and Miliband. Your kind of men. But let me tell you summat, John. We won't even get anywhere near "almost" with Starmer. Not in my lifetime or yours. He is not the man. He won't win next time or the time after, even if we lefties suddenly decide to handle him with kid gloves. Which there's no point doing. "Getting it" means latching on to the realpolitik. I recommend you have a go at that some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 08:19 PM

"Frankly, I'd far sooner keep my principles and lose elections. Yes, really. And I don't believe for a minute that that has to be the case."

Well...



Well.. I'm a lefty and a pragmatist..


The immediate priority is getting rid of the tories asap...!!!

Though it might not be strategicly good sense for Labour to actually win that election,
and be dumped with the mammoth thankless task of trying to fix the chaos left by the tories.
That would effectively set Labour up to fail spectacularly, and perhaps permanently...???

That's an intresting dilimna to figure out...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 21 - 09:10 PM

"poisoned chalice" is the phrase I was struggling to remember for Labour,
if by some miracle they were to win the next election...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 02:09 AM

”I really hate to keep on saying this, but "calls for unity" in Labour are always, ALWAYS, code for ,"Oi you lefties, keep quiet and let us responsible middle-of-the-roaders hold sway. We can handle this!"

No you don’t ‘really hate to keep on saying this’, Steve - pontificating and lecturing everyone with your entrenched views, your claims to superior socialist ‘credentials’, and your gratuitous name-dropping, is what you love doing, otherwise you wouldn’t do it so ad nauseam.

And you steadfastly continue your same-old, same-old word-twisting and putting words in others’ mouths - it’s very dishonest, and it makes any kind of meaningful discussion impossible. I thought we’d got rid of that kind of reprehensible behaviour when the Mods made Jim go away. I have repeatedly said that all sides need to make compromises to unify the party, I’m insulted by your inference that I’m not being honest when I say that, and I can only speculate as to what motivates you to refuse to take me at my word.

So, there you go, Dave - there’s at least part of the reason Labour are fucked. He complains that people who take the reasonable and pragmatic view are guilty of unfairly, one-sidedly blaming the Left for Labour’s troubles, and then immediately regales us with a perfect demonstration of at least some of the reasons why the Left get the blame! It’s impossible to discuss anything when faced by entrenched, know-it-all attitudes and deceitful putting-words-in-people’s-mouths tactics like that, and I’m not going to dignify them by trying.

And, FWIW, I’m not going to dignify Sandman’s disgraceful ad hominem above by responding, other than to draw his attention to the psychological phenomenon known as ‘projection’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

No John, that is not the problem at all. The problem is the type of behaviour that causes Becky Long-Bailey (Yes, I do know her. No that is not name dropping.) to be sacked from her position on trumped up antisemitism charges. It has also happened to my daughter in law. Who is Jewish. None of these charges were the real cause. They have been sidelined because they were too left wing. How many right wingers were sacked or suspended when Corbyn was in power? He may have been ineffective but he was fair. It is not about the left and right of the party any more. It is about those who want to feather their own nests and those who want to make a real difference. Sadly, the former are in charge at the moment.

Yes,extremism of any type is wrong but let me ask you how many from the right of the party have been sacked or tarred with antisemitism smears? Then ask yourself why that may be and who is behind it.

As to Sandman's ramblings, I have no idea at all what he is on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:50 AM

Anyway, any comment about the main point of my post, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

Where have I berated you, John? Apologies if I did. In my mind I was simply arguing against some of your points. That is not berating but using words like pontificating, lecturing and entrenched is. I do believe the factions need to unite but not at any cost. The whole political spectrum, including the Labour Party, has been swinging right for years. Big business and the media love this but it is bad news for us ordinary folk and that needs to be redressed. What is the point of voting for a Labour Party that is no different to the Tories?

The whole point of different factions in any Party is to question the leadership. The way to address those questions is to listen and, if necessary, compromise. Not silence and malign any opposition. I ask once again, how many right wing Labour MPs have been sacked or suspended?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:01 AM

What is the main point of your post, John?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:35 AM

You’re an intelligent guy, Dave - read it and answer the question, why are you arguing with me when I’ve agreed with you over and over again? One could be forgiven for thinking there’s a vendetta.

In fact, don’t bother, this is just too tiresome and I have better things to do. Very soon there will only be you and Steve posting anyway - happy families.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 05:51 AM

When Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, a large number of senior Labour people on the right of the party refused to work with him in the shadow cabinet. One of that lot, Tom Watson, served as deputy leader. Both he and many of those others never missed an opportunity to brief against Corbyn, and Jeremy endured trumped-up accusations of antisemitism that none of them ever tried to refute in his defence. Indeed, several senior Labour figures attacked him on it constantly and dishonestly. Corbyn tried to be inclusive in selecting a team from all wings of the party. But there was never any bleating about "unity" or "compromise" then from those refuseniks who are bleating about it now. On the contrary, the sole aim was to get the properly-elected leader, Corbyn, out. Those people gave the right-wing media open season on Corbyn and they did it deliberately. Didn't exactly help in 2019, did it?

As for compromise, etc., I invite you to reread the anodyne comments made by Becky Long-Bailey and Jeremy Corbyn that got them the boot. Completely laughable. Starmer couldn't wait to pounce on the left at the very slightest opportunity. And now he tries to change the party rules in order to sideline them further. What price "compromise"?

As for pragmatism, it's not pragmatic to keep propping up a leader who can never win an election. In 2010 the country gave Labour a kicking once it saw what Blairism had done to us. Well this guy is just a tired old Blairite who fatally, hasn't got even a trace of Blair's charisma.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 06:43 AM

I am not arguing with you, John. Just pointing out flaws in some of your arguments. I'm sorry if you feel that is a vendetta but as I said, opposition should not be silenced or ignored. It should be listened to and acted upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 06:52 AM

BTW, there is no leftist gang or cabal here. I have never met Steve. I agree with a lot of his points and disagree with others. When we disagree we do just that - disagree. There is no rancour and no grudges held. Same with a lot of other folk I disagree with. This forum is neither real life nor politically important. It is, or should be, a good place to share similarities and air differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:39 AM

Tell me whenever you disagree, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 07:51 AM

This week’s naming of five of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest staffers

And we can't get rid of the man even now?

Long ago I compared Corbyn to Michael Foot, and asked how many elections Footie kicked into touch. Corblymie is really doin' gud fer the party, innit? At a time when 'king Boris is bumbling and turncoating his way through a crisis he created, alienating a big enough chunk of his supporters to make a enough difference, in any other circumstance.

Ya cain't make it up, 'cept 'king Boris does, as he goes along.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:06 AM

Well Steve, as a TRUE Manc in exile I obviously have to disagree with you about Liverpool. But seeing as I know FA about football (see what I did there?) I cannot be passionate about it. There have been other things but I'm not one for dredging up the past. When we next disagree, you will be the first to know!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:10 AM

It's a quasi-philosophical question is that, who kicked elections into touch...After Corbyn had given Theresa May a nasty shock in 2017, the big guns both inside and outside the party came out for him in full force. He was no charismatic leader, for sure. However, like Michael Foot, he was one of that rare breed in politics, a person of principle.

Michael Foot doomed himself by wearing a jacket that wasn't a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph. Johnson leads a dissolute private life (lessee now...how many kids has he got...) and is a proven serial liar as well as a racist and a homophobe, but he can't doom himself no matter how hard he tries, not even by causing tens of thousands of needless deaths. Something to contemplate there, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM

It's not still about those bingo balls and the photocopied bingo cards, is it, Dave...? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM

Damn you for mentioning them, Shaw! Shall I tell all about Lilo Lil and the Knot End ferry?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM

Blimey, Knott End Ferry! That takes me back - it must be sixty years since I last went on it (it was a regular treat for us in them days and Fleetwood was me parents' favourite place: they loved walking round Rossall Point...)

Heard from Betty Swollix lately, Dave?