BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:25 AM

Damn! 2400, not 2500. What a time for a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:48 AM

:-)

You are probably pronouncing it right. As in "I am Lrr of Omicron Persei 8" from Futurama

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 05:07 AM

how many new hospitals have been built, how many public buildings have had money spent on improving ventilation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 06:51 AM

I haven't been to any mass gatherings, nor inhabited a pub, for almost two years and am not planning to change that. I simply can't understand why I wouldn't, from Tuesday, be required to wear a mask for a four-hour Saturday night visit to a crowded pub, yet would be forced to for a 15-minute evening visit to Morrisons. Avoiding crowds, sanitising my hands and supermarket trolleys and keeping my distance all make sound scientific sense and don't require laws. Wearing a leaky mask that gets rapidly contaminated, which then contaminates my hands, then mixing with hordes of people all in that boat, many of who possess a delusionally-false sense of security, does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:29 AM

They should have named it Omega. Even our US talking heads are saying o-micron. Our news graphics show UK, Ireland and Germany in red for Omicron but since it has been found in Kentucky it is certainly in the US but there seems to be a lid on reporting. A spike in reported new cases > 40% does NOT SHOW ANYTHING BEYOND AN INCREASE IN TRANSMISSABILITY so there is reason to hope that severity has not increased. Moderna and Pfizer is making a mrna vaccine to be on the safe side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 09:11 AM

At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection. My concern is that I would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 10:51 AM

I am still going seeing Maddy Prior and the Carnival Band next Saturday unless it is cancelled. No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at.

I fully understand your points about masks, Steve, but still think you are wrong. Masks do provide at least some protection from the moisture droplets that carry the virus. Neither the droplets nor the virus are like germs and they are not intelligent enough to negate the obstacle presented by a physical barrier no matter how leaky round the edges. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 11:41 AM

"No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at"

Some years ago, I was lucky enough to go to the Galapagos Islands. While there, a woman remarked "This is so barren. No self respecting animal would live here."

It takes all sorts ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:01 PM

"At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection."

Absolutely not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:25 PM

Part of the definition of a virus when I was doing biology at university was that it was a non-filterable particle, Dave. It takes a lot more than a flimsy, leaky mask to stop a virus particle. Sure, your mask will trap snotty little droplets. Two things may then happen. The droplet will soak to the front of the mask then dry out, leaving free virus particles. But you'll feel nice and safe, even though your mask, which you'll touch unless you're a saint, is riddled with virus particles that will take off at the merest encouragement. Or your mask will stay soggy and, well, full of viruses, which you won't know about, and then you'll blithely do the wrong thing with it (shove it in your pocket next to your tenners, whack it on your dashboard, slip it down your chin until the next shop, save it for tomorrow...Unless you're a saint. I haven't seen too many of those. And of course you can behave badly with your mask and still not be a danger to anyone. In fact, that applies to the vast majority of mask wearers that you see. Why? Because they haven't bloody got it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:31 PM

On pronunciation:   My daughter - who I taught the Greek alphabet to before she started primary school during one of our games - is also annoyed at the way it is being said. She has told told me Cambridge online agrees with the one we always used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 02:11 PM

Steve - good job I'm a 'saint' then...

My inner 'Stalin' dictates it's about time to bring in detention camps for militant anti-vaxxers / maskers..

Those islands in the Bristol channel would make do for a start...

One of them already has a derelict isolation hospital leftover from an earlier historic disease crisis..

A tin of paint and a bag of nails should do the job getting it up and running again.
Repurposed for detaining and 'culturally re-educating' Covid denying and spreading antisocial bell ends...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 02:26 PM

CONCERN:
noun
1. anxiety; worry.
"such unsatisfactory work gives cause for concern"
Similar: anxiety
2. A matter of interest or importance to someone.
"I am concerned that responding to people like you know who may be ill, would be cruel and unfair."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:45 PM

The fact is, Donuel old bean, that your statement is an actual lie. No-one has said that vaccines may give us NO protection against this variant. No-one. And your wriggling insinuations reveal to the world, or at least to a handful of Mudcatters, that you are a fool.

Pfr, thank God I don't fit the bill for your suggested exile. Though Lundy is very nice. The problem is the trip to it on that sick-bucket of a boat. I know. I did it in 1992 and am still in recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 05:29 PM

Sorry, Steve, but I still think you are wrong. You cannot prove to me, nor I to you, that a mask will make matters better or worse. You believe it will make things worse. I, and most of the medical and scientific community, believe it will make things better. I know who I will go with. You may well be a scientist but I am a computer engineer with many years of experience in troubleshooting. The first thing I ask when things go wrong is "What has changed?" I cannot say for certain what made the difference this time because so many rules altered. But one of them was the relaxation of wearing masks. Let us roll back the changes until the spread of the virus halts. The easiest one is to reintroduce the wearing of masks. I, for one, will go with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 06:28 PM

Right from the start I've shared some of Steve's doubts about the competence of most mask wearers.

Though personally I err on the side of caution, in case masks do provide at least a little protection...???

However, I believe a primary function of masks,
is as a visual social symbol that the majority of citizens take this pandemic seriously.

Unity of purpose, solidarity, the preparedness to act responsibly
in the face of potential mass death.

I wear a mask as a two fingers up protest to all the arsehole far right covid deniers ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:41 PM

I'm a biologist, Dave. Microbiology and pathology were big bits of my course. It's hard to argue against the precautionary principle and you'll never find me trying that. That's why I respect the mask-wearing sentiment. But it simply isn't for me. This disease kills around one percent or less of its victims. With the vaccines, far less than that. And those stats ignore the fact that millions of people get the virus and don't know they have it (around one in three). And they also ignore the fact that millions of people get it mildly and either don't know it's covid-19 or simply refrain from reporting it. If I suspected that I had it, though mildly, I would not report it. I ditched that bloody stupid app six months ago. I'm simply not having some government agency telling me what I can or can't do. I would stay at home until I was better. My decision, absolutely as it should be. About five winters ago, flu killed 30,000 people in the UK in just a few short months. No-one told anyone to stay home, limit your contact with loved ones or wear a mask. And it passed.

You really do have to see through this. This Tory government has deliberately run down the NHS over ten years. They are terrified that a surge in cases will overrun the health service. That would be politically fatal for them. Be assured that your life and well-being are not their concern. You are made to wear a mask to switch the onus on to the public. If things go pear-shaped this winter they will blame people like me for fighting mask-wearing. I've had both jabs, my booster and my flu jab. But it will still be my fault. You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:46 PM

By the way, Dave, as a chap with a scientific background, the very last thing I'm interested in is "proving" anything. That ain't how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 03:25 AM

As a troubleshooter I did have to prove what was wrong! Mind you, computers are not as complicated as people. I still apply the principle of "what has changed?" to things that go wrong though. It usually works :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:12 AM

and now we have a co incidence omicron appears just before christmas. dave the gnome   aka The Lone Ranger.
beware of small men examples, napoleon, nobby stiles

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:50 AM

Charlie Chaplin he was small but he was funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 05:02 AM

"I wear a mask as a two fingers up protest to all the arsehole far right covid deniers ..."

Let's not forget the far from right covid deniers.

++

"Cue the banning of Christmas"

Not this old chestnut again. I am sure we still had a 25th December last year. Of course I am not sure what the latest chestnut situation is at the moment. I imagine that some journalists will be raising that question with a member of the government in the next few days.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 06:26 AM

Well Christmas was completely ruined for my family last year via an almost-last-minute Johnson edict, thanks, after earlier promises that that wasn't going to happen. My son and daughter-in-law, along with our one and only grandchild, live 250 miles away and we see them, at most, about three times a year. We had to spend a fortune posting him his presents and we had a mountain of food that we didn't need. Not to speak of the bitter disappointment of it all. Sure, we had a Dec 25, and, never fear, the sun will rise tomorrow. But what we didn't have was Christmas.

It would be constructive if we could all hang on to (what are to me, anyway) the clear distinctions between covid-19 deniers, mask rebels, conspiracy theorists (I'm none of those) and those of us who argue the case for the ditching of restrictions on our normal lives imposed by a government who don't give a flying shite about our health and safety but who are far more concerned about the political damage it will do to them should the NHS which they have so criminally depleted be overwhelmed. Know thine enemy. It's in the shape of a fat, blond buffoon and his two stooges, Whitty The Miserable who always looks as if he'd far rather be somewhere else, and Vallance, who is the biggest idiot in town.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:05 AM

On another topic!

The Evening Standard has reported that the SNP are using the Parliamentary timeslot allocated to them to put forward a motion of censure against Johnson Tuesday. It is very unlikely to win, even with all the disquiet amongst the Conservatives.

However in the past, Labour have said they have a policy of not voting for motions put forward by other parties. If they abstain on this, there is no way the Conservatives could possibly lose and it will look very bad indeed for Labour. As a result, I hope Labour do feel able to vote with the SNP on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:15 AM

nobody has banned christmas, but i think it isremarkable that a new variant surfaces shortly before christmas, the vaccines are clearly not as good as they were cracked up to be, we might need more and the pharma companies profits will increase

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 07:23 AM

If you make the (possibly invalid) assumption that new variants are uniformly distributed across the year then a new one appearing roughly 1/6 of the year is not surprising. Especially as we have had others at 'unremarkable' dates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 09:45 AM

bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 12:14 PM

If that is directed at me, Sandman, I would point out the virus was first discovered in South Africa and is now being detected in many places throughout the world. It appearance now is not due to the UK Government interests. We are simply not influential enough to make the rest of the world behave in the way they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 12:21 PM

"nobody has banned christmas..."

Not yet, but he effectively banned it last year, cutting it to a single day with extra restrictions, and it hit families like mine, with loved ones scattered all over the country, especially hard. It was arbitrary, cruel, unnecessary and ultimately useless. I can scarcely believe that I'm living in a supposedly democratic country in which a dangerous buffoon can tell people that they can't mix with their own families and that we must cover half our faces, the main attribute that most conveys our humanity to the world. As he's done it before and got away with it, he'll do it again. He thinks he can do what he likes, whether it's illegally proroguing Parliament, lying in his teeth during the brexit campaign, leaving his mask off in a bloody hospital or announcing stuff on Twitter before telling Parliament. And don't get me started on his support for Priti Patel, a thick, smirking bully who should have been sacked forever after her illicit dealings as a government minister in Israel, and greasy Grant Shapps, and ....and...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 01:03 PM

The Independant
Sturgeon (Scotland) and Drakeford (Wales) demand the Prime Minister fall in line with their requirements for dealing with the Omicron variant.
These are the two who have spent the last 20 months insisting that they are entitled to take actions on Covid which diverge from the 'English' actions.
Hypocritical or what?

And just to make my view clear, I think there should be one, central, plan for the whole of the UK. If there are 'hot-spots' then there would be justification for treating them differently, but not as three separate nations (four if you include Northern Ireland)
Last month I went up to Birmingham by train (they've got a great pinball bar). I had to wear a mask on the train, until I reached England!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

hypocritical

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 02:12 PM

priti patel is indeed a smirking bully, i am not sure if she is thick, yes boris is a buffoon

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 03:17 PM

Nigel, I too would like to see a plan for the whole nation. It would go as follows:

Have a big campaign in all the media to give everyone honest information and advice. Get the stuff up on billboards everywhere, as we did, successfully, with Aids. The advice would revolve around our always being cautious, and around being kind and considerate to each other. To keep our distance. To get fresh air into our buildings. To wear masks if that makes us feel better, on the understanding that improper use of masks (currently routine) is worse than useless. Make masks free. Allow shopkeepers to make their own rules about masks. Encourage everyone to avoid crowds and crowded places and to consider doing the supermarket shopping at quiet times. Get everyone to obtain a free supply of lateral flow test kits. Encourage everyone who doesn't feel well to stay at home and test themselves. Strongly encourage everyone to get vaccinated then boostered. Counter all the conspiracy theories with careful and measured truthful information. Take them on, head-on, big time. No scaremongering and absolutely no compulsion.

I would love to see Facebook disappear. It won't happen, but I certainly wouldn't vote against it. So much damage has been done by social media, but so many people who can't seem to live without it would rather divert the blame on to people who make measured arguments which challenge what our incompetent governments are doing. If that sounds like me being defensive, too bloody right I am. Shoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:01 PM

Measured arguments haven't saved anyone yet, at least not yours.
I thank the knowledge and actions of never so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:03 PM

Methinks thou dost protest too much...

I reckon it will not be too long until you set up your own facebook page on Man's Best Friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 04:57 PM

Then tell me precisely how I protest too much. Making measured arguments that challenge the received wisdoms of the time may not be a pitch for popularity but they're a damn sight better, and certainly harder won, than your facile cheap shots. As for you, Donuel, as ever, you demonstrate that you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. As they say, and I could be misquoting, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it. Incidentally, It's been more than implied several times that I don't know what I'm talking about when I visit the likes of the Trump thread and other Yankee threads on diets and vaccines, etc. Thing is, we sullen Brits are allowed one thread. You have multiple threads available to you in your neck of the woods in which you can pontificate to your heart's content in your obscurantist and over-clever style about matters to do with the pandemic, diets, Trump and the rest. My polite advice to you is that you should stay in your Merkin-inspired threads on these topics. My impolite advice can wait for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 21 - 06:00 PM

And this is not a protest, just a question:

Tomorrow evening, I may want to go to Morrisons, maybe around 7.30, to buy a pint of milk, a box of Maltesers and a bottle the excellent Negroamaro (actually, 25% off three...). I'll be in and out in ten minutes, there'll be hardly anyone else in the shop, but I'll have to wear a mask. I can then roll up to my favourite pub in Bude, a popular spot, and stay in there, up close and personal with all and sundry, no masks needed and no masks in sight, for the next four hours (no drink-driving will occur, I promise...)

So the question is,

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 02:50 AM

Huh, indeed. I quite agree that makes no logical sense. Personally, I would say masks should be required in pubs and restaurants except when you are not sat eating and drinking, which largely means when going to the bar to order.

But the problem is that dealing with things like infection control has never primarily been a matter of logic. That is not a criticism of the approach (though I have many!) It is that prevent the spread of infections is inherently a problem that does not lead to simple logical solutions.

Take the old rules on meeting up in groups. We went for six, but there was no great rationale why it should not be 5 or 7. How children fit into this varied between England and Scotland. Why people who are 12-plus-a-month should be considered entirely differently to 12-minus-a-month is not really logical. Moreover, even if you meet you meet in a group how you interact matters rather more than the number.

So we are not in the realm of what makes logical sense. We are working with a combination of what can be justified statistically, modified by what we can achieve pragmatically. We also have to add a psychological state to that: people doing chores like shopping may well accept restrictions more readily than those out enjoying themselves in a pub, or trying to chat up a potential partner.

To that we have to add that while it may be possible to solve a problem logically given all the information, the situation is quite different when much of the information is unknown or uncertain.

So, yes, very much 'Huh?' But realistically any solution will be rather a mess. You cannot take something which is essentially a smooth continuum of risk and add a legal line which says everything to the left is ok and everything to the right not ok without creating apparent absurdities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 04:31 AM

Your thoughtful and measured response is much appreciated. Cheers for that.

A big problem, in the context of our approaching year three of intermittent lockdowns and restrictions, is that large numbers of people, how should I put this, are getting bloody fed up of being told what to do by a government that is looking increasingly incompetent. Perceptions of the apparent absurdities we're talking about won't generally be subjected by most people to the kind of careful consideration that you exemplify in your post. The apparent superficiality of my supermarket/pub example is likely to be the far more typical response. The population has, so far, been very compliant in general. A government that continues to rely on that, in the face of what look like heavy-handed edicts, could be taking a risk. I still think that education, information and persuasion are the pragmatic way forward (this virus isn't going away: it isn't like an outbreak of food poisoning or typhoid or even winter flu. We can't be telling people to wear masks for year after year...). Never compulsion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 05:42 AM

You are completely correct there, I fear.

Here is a clipping from a report of the "Today" programme:

Responsibility to wear masks put back on British public
Last bit from health minister Gillian Keegan now, who said this morning mask-wearing will be down to “the good sense of British people”.

Asked how new rules around wearing face coverings on public transport will be enforced, Ms Keegan told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “Well, largely due to the good sense of British people who will hopefully listen to the rules, try to protect each other, and do what the right thing is.

“That’s largely how it’s always been. That’s pretty much what it’s always been, but the police do have powers to enforce.”

So if people choose not to follow the rules, the chances are little will be done (after perhaps a few days of police checking)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 06:27 AM

I've been arguing right from the outset that appealing to the best instincts of the public, via information and persuasion (and an appeal for us all to be kind and considerate to each other) would be far more effective than edicts. The longer this goes on (which could mean for our lifetimes), the more that would hold true. So what are we waiting for?

I think that a wise government would fear a major backlash if it were considering draconian measures at Christmas similar to last year's. Spot the oxymoron in that sentence...

On a separate point, I think that forcing, or even "strongly persuading," schoolchildren to wear masks in school is an absolutely disgusting and inhuman notion. Utterly out of order, whatever else we may think about masks, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 07:56 AM

DMcG: Huh, indeed. I quite agree that makes no logical sense. Personally, I would say masks should be required in pubs and restaurants except when you are not sat eating and drinking, which largely means when going to the bar to order.

I believe a rogue 'not' has crept in there making your comment the reverse of what you intended.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 07:58 AM

Just an observation I made this morning. At our local gym there are signs that ask people to wear masks while moving about but to remove them when exercising. Now that really is pointless. Luckily everyone, bar none that I have seen, do clean down the machines and use hand sanitiser between each use. There is also a remote temperature reader that anyone can use to check their own temperature before entry. Not ideal but a reasonable measure I would have thought. And before anyone asks, I do a lateral flow test at least 3 times a week.

Of course things could have been a lot worse. We could have had a communist, antisemitic terrorist in charge... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 08:01 AM

Steve:
and I could be misquoting, better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.

Unfortunately that appears to be one of those aphorisms which occurs in two conflicting forms, like 'look before you leap'/'he who hesitates is lost' or 'many hands make light work'/'too many cooks spoil the broth')
I recall it as: "Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt".
The converse is: "Better to speak up and be thought a fool today than to remain in ignorance for life" (or some such)

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 08:19 AM

Relying on good sense and logical thinking sounds noble and respondsible but we are dealing with a quantum universe and the diverse behaviors of people. It is the best we can do to course correct all along the way to an improved response similar to trial and error. You guys can grasp the scale of a virus but most people don't. It doesn't seem logical a mask is protective. There are answers beyond what seems logical to an encapsulated mind. MAYBE a viral load is made small enough to be destroyed by a macrophage - the point is there is demonstrable evidence of mask efficasiousness.

Reasoned rational minds do see through the smoke of lies but that hasn't changed the dynamic of big lies despite all the logic and insight we throw at it. All the politcal science expertise has still fallen short of the invasive phenomenon of which I have some expertise. example

Logic is neither good or bad its just an incomplete answer.
A linear mind will find this hard to swallow.
MEANWHILE "I alone can fix it" types abound.









efficasiousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 21 - 09:54 AM

OK, Nigel, I was lazy enough to try the aphorism without checking the right wording, but I got quite close!

As I've repeatedly said in another thread, Donuel (which you'd be wise to confine yourself to, in my humble opinion), the mask evidence you refer to is purely observational. Not only is that potentially far weaker than experimental evidence (which in this case we can't have for ethical and practical reasons), it is also extremely vulnerable to confounding factors. You accuse others of linear thinking. What I've just said is the polar opposite of that. In fact, evangelical mask advocacy such as yours, in the absence of reliable evidence, is a great example of the linear thinking that you so ironically accuse others of resorting to.

I said evangelical mask advocacy (the sort of thing that has mask sceptics being accused of being Nazis or of killing people, etc. - we've seen it all, haven't we, Donuel?), not just mask advocacy. As I've said 'til I'm blue in the face, the precautionary principle is a perfectly respectable position on which to predicate your attempts to persuade people to wear masks. But, in my view, you don't start imposing arbitrary laws on people unless you are certain beyond reasonable doubt of your position, and when it comes to masks that is not possible. Remember, we still live in democracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 05:05 AM

Ah, those mixed messages all over again. So who do we pay heed to then? "Cut down the social mixing" Jenny Harries (established nincompoop #1), or "Party on!" Boris Johnson (established nincompoop #2)?

Sadge is in a mess, Whitty wants to anywhere other than next to Bozo, Vallance is Eric Morecambe without the fun and we have Van Tam the circus clown who gets himself knotted up in obscure football analogies.

Are we doomed or should we just carry on and ignore the bloody lot of 'em? Answers on a postcard please...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 08:38 AM

I see it has come out that while Bozo told us all we could not mix with our families last Christmas he was partying with his mates. How long before he has enough rope? Trouble is, those waiting in the wings are probably more effective at shafting the rest of us without anyone noticing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 01:18 PM

Laura Kuenessberg has tweeted:

After @PippaCrerar and @danbloom1 scoop this morning, we're told by an attendee of drinks in No 10 on Dec 18th that there were 'several dozen' people there, with food, drink and games which went on past midnight... https://t.co/42taDI3SKu - No 10's said all rules were followed

=====
It will be interesting to see what the BBC do with that this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 21 - 02:17 PM

Sinister or what? Read this in today's Guardian:

"Jailed for 51 weeks for protesting? Britain is becoming a police state by stealth" (George Monbiot)

Yet another example of this government's sense of entitlement to sidestep democracy and do whatever they like. And of its increasingly authoritarian nature, trampling on our rights...