BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:31 PM

On pronunciation:   My daughter - who I taught the Greek alphabet to before she started primary school during one of our games - is also annoyed at the way it is being said. She has told told me Cambridge online agrees with the one we always used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:25 PM

Part of the definition of a virus when I was doing biology at university was that it was a non-filterable particle, Dave. It takes a lot more than a flimsy, leaky mask to stop a virus particle. Sure, your mask will trap snotty little droplets. Two things may then happen. The droplet will soak to the front of the mask then dry out, leaving free virus particles. But you'll feel nice and safe, even though your mask, which you'll touch unless you're a saint, is riddled with virus particles that will take off at the merest encouragement. Or your mask will stay soggy and, well, full of viruses, which you won't know about, and then you'll blithely do the wrong thing with it (shove it in your pocket next to your tenners, whack it on your dashboard, slip it down your chin until the next shop, save it for tomorrow...Unless you're a saint. I haven't seen too many of those. And of course you can behave badly with your mask and still not be a danger to anyone. In fact, that applies to the vast majority of mask wearers that you see. Why? Because they haven't bloody got it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 01:01 PM

"At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection."

Absolutely not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 11:41 AM

"No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at"

Some years ago, I was lucky enough to go to the Galapagos Islands. While there, a woman remarked "This is so barren. No self respecting animal would live here."

It takes all sorts ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 10:51 AM

I am still going seeing Maddy Prior and the Carnival Band next Saturday unless it is cancelled. No self respecting virus would dare to go to Ilkley. Baht at.

I fully understand your points about masks, Steve, but still think you are wrong. Masks do provide at least some protection from the moisture droplets that carry the virus. Neither the droplets nor the virus are like germs and they are not intelligent enough to negate the obstacle presented by a physical barrier no matter how leaky round the edges. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 09:11 AM

At this early date we are told there is concern, anxiety and worry that existing vaccine offers no protection. My concern is that I would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 08:29 AM

They should have named it Omega. Even our US talking heads are saying o-micron. Our news graphics show UK, Ireland and Germany in red for Omicron but since it has been found in Kentucky it is certainly in the US but there seems to be a lid on reporting. A spike in reported new cases > 40% does NOT SHOW ANYTHING BEYOND AN INCREASE IN TRANSMISSABILITY so there is reason to hope that severity has not increased. Moderna and Pfizer is making a mrna vaccine to be on the safe side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 06:51 AM

I haven't been to any mass gatherings, nor inhabited a pub, for almost two years and am not planning to change that. I simply can't understand why I wouldn't, from Tuesday, be required to wear a mask for a four-hour Saturday night visit to a crowded pub, yet would be forced to for a 15-minute evening visit to Morrisons. Avoiding crowds, sanitising my hands and supermarket trolleys and keeping my distance all make sound scientific sense and don't require laws. Wearing a leaky mask that gets rapidly contaminated, which then contaminates my hands, then mixing with hordes of people all in that boat, many of who possess a delusionally-false sense of security, does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 05:07 AM

how many new hospitals have been built, how many public buildings have had money spent on improving ventilation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:48 AM

:-)

You are probably pronouncing it right. As in "I am Lrr of Omicron Persei 8" from Futurama

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:25 AM

Damn! 2400, not 2500. What a time for a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:24 AM

2500 by the way. And a chance to report an irritation that I seem to have been pronouncing 'omicron' incorrectly for more than 50 years. (o-micron)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 03:03 AM

I think the new restrictions are too weak, personally, but in one sense I am relieved at a personal level.

I follow Northern Ballet fairly closely. Some years ago, I went to see their opening night of a brand new ballet called 'Geisha'. It very next day, all the theatres were closed because of covid restrictions, so this turned out to be the only public performance ever.

On Thursday I am due to see their new production "Merlin". This has has a few performances now - maybe 10 in about three theatres. I thought it unlikely but not impossible theatres would be shut down again in this announcement. Since they are not, I will at least get to see it.

All that is very selfish, though. Keeping such mass gatherings in enclosed spaces is not a good idea at all with any variant, and with one that may evade the vaccines (to some extent) the trade off between risk and economic damage changes. So I think it quite possible we see such restrictions again after Christmas. The government will strongly resist doing it before if it possibly can.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 07:36 PM

In the words of Michelle of the Resistance, "I shall say this only once..." ...or should...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 07:32 PM

Incidentally,

"I really don’t understand why there’s so much fuss from the anti-mask brigade, words like ‘grow’, ‘fuck’, and ‘up’ spring to mind."

Well your attitude is predicated, just like mine, on your personal opinion. I fully understand why some people choose to wear masks, even when not mandated to do so, and (as I've said many times here), I respect that fully. Unlike a few people I know, I'm not a mask rebel and have always obeyed whatever rules have been in force.

So I don't appreciate being told that I have to "grow up" (your usual uncalled-for expletive deleted...) by someone whose opinion has absolutely no more validity than mine, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 06:54 PM

Well I'm not a mask rebel and will always don a mask if legally required. But absolutely not under any other circumstances. My background is in science and I know how to interpret evidence, and I also know how to avoid confirmation bias. Evangelical mask advocates are generally guilty of just that. God, the trouble I've had with Maggie... Whilst I can't prove it, I'm of the opinion that mask-wearing is of limited or no value, and I know that alleged evidence in favour of mask-wearing is purely observational only (which is precisely the kind of evidence that cavemen had when they concluded that the sun goes round the earth). That does not mean that I'm anti-mask, and I fully respect anyone who feels safer, whatever it is, with a mask on. I've been saying for weeks that Johnson is looking for an excuse to roll back on his blatant July lie that the lifting of restrictions would be irreversible. This new variant, which is almost certainly going to be no worse than any previous ones, is his ideal excuse. Cue the banning of Christmas, or, at best, telling us that we can only mix with our loved ones in sixes, etc. We have a government replete with incompetent control freaks. The more they do this stuff, the easier it will be for them to do it more and more in years to come.   Let's be warned!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 06:02 PM

Johnson’s announcement won’t affect me. Public transport is virtually non-existent here in the Backwoods, and I’ve never stopped wearing a mask in shops and other indoor public spaces. I really don’t understand why there’s so much fuss from the anti-mask brigade, words like ‘grow’, ‘fuck’, and ‘up’ spring to mind.

The usual disclaimers apply - IMHO, YMMV, IOSTBTBDO, yadda yadda…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 21 - 05:16 PM

At a joint press conference flanked by the UK’s chief scientific adviser, Patrick Vallance, and England’s chief medical officer, Chris Whitty, Johnson said that people in England would be required to wear face masks again on public transport and in shops. Downing Street later confirmed that masks would become mandatory in shops and on public transport from “next week” but “all hospitality settings will be exempt”

It is always dangerous to make assumptions with anything Johnson says, but let us assume being 'required' to means it is a legal requirement to, with a fine or other penalty if you are found to be in breach.

What level of rebellion is there likely to be? The vast majority of comments on Facebook alongside the official announcement were people saying they would not. Steve has raised many objections to being required to wear a mask, and if those comments are representative he is far from alone. If it is a legal requirement, how will it be enforced? There are not enough police to do so other than by spot checks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 12:43 PM

He hasn't prompted anyone to invade the house of commons yet but give him time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 06:10 PM

Thanks DtG!

I saw several minutes of the PM's talk and was reminded of our U.S. previous occupant, just that Boris seemed more cheerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 08:12 AM

SPB - Makes a lot more sense than Bozo!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 08:12 AM

Peppa Pig World is something like half an hour from where I live - I pass signs to it frequently, though I have never been (even though our PM says we "must") It is within a larger theme park "Paulton's Park", which I have never been to either, though for the first few years we lived here my wife would occasionally say 'there is a park nearby we have not been to' and I would remind her it is a theme park, so she would not be interested.

It is closed at the moment, and I was told it was closed all November. It is not easy to see if it was open on Sunday, but I have found a review from someone for the right day, so I presume the person who told me it was closed was mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 06:53 AM

Good news.

Downing Street has finially issued clear Covid guidance.

The following restrictions will take effect at exactly 0:00!

A respirator should be worn by everyone in the sign of Virgo, Libra and Aquarius, as well as all Suzuki owners unless they wear green socks.

If you are currently riding a bike and passing in front of house number 17, you are not obliged, you can skip this provision.

If you live in a yellow house, you cannot leave it until the door on the street opens to traffic. But that is not true if there is a School within fifty meters from your residence, because yes, if not.

Next vaccination of vaccinated will be sixth, no matter how many jabs you have received, you must pass it to the one sitting in front of your right shoulder.

Work only then unless the place of vaccination is determined, otherwise a virus test.

The sacrifice of black cats is suspended indefinitely during the full moon, with the exception of those with a vaccination card.

If for someone, the level of antibodies do not reach the minimum, this level is at the maximum, but only if it keeps a distance of two meters.

Women can leave their homes on weekdays only if they are married, not if they have children, if they have not 2 children of the same sex, but the age difference is not more than 2 years. This rule does not apply to children between the ages of 4-10 unless they have a cap on their head.

Hope this is all clear now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 03:00 AM

the problem with that, pfr, is that he is more likely to win elections than any other tories, he seems to appeal to the electorate

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 02:44 AM

There ya go Robomatic :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 12:39 AM

The absurd/tragic reality of it is..
.. it might be safer having this amoral fukwit remain our PM,
than any of his even worse tory rivals eager to take over from him...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 09:56 PM

Tell me more about this Peppa Pig your PM's so enamored with. Inquiring Yanks wish to know.

"vroom vroom"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 02:09 PM

I guess we have all heard about Bozos ramblings in Peppa Pig world. Do you think he may be trying to reprise Camoron's antics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 21 - 12:39 PM

Donny - please remember we are only allowed ONE British thread,
primarily for BRITISH mudcatters to discuss important BRITISH matters of concern to US [not USA]...

There are always several other threads [usually started by yourself]
where self indulgent poetical Americans are more than welcome to pontificate...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 04:12 PM

PF, R
ulster would say no

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 01:32 PM

If hard line Northern Irelanders are so obsessed about being British..
.. Why not ship 'em all out to the Falklands...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Nov 21 - 09:32 AM

".... who are horrified that their statelet isn't suffering the same problems as Britain. "

As a hard-line INTERNATIONLIST and a Londoner, I am disgusted that I am getting less-preferential treatment than my fellow citizens in Northern Island. If they are entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of a single market and customs unions, then unless the EU can show that I am somehow inferior to other human being and therefore less deserving of human rights, and therefore only worthy of extermination, this is clear discrimination - people in the same country being treated less favourably because of their postcode.

it is not difficult to resolve this. I have no problem with those who voted leave, bigots, xenophobes and racists getting what they voted for, but even an idiot can set up a system to ensure that the rights of pro-European individuals are 100% protected and have identical rights as ALL EU nationals. All it takes is ensuring border systems recognise who does and doesn't have freedom of movement on an individual basis, ensuring that all produce purchased by pro-Europeans are tariff free and not held up by border checks. The only barrier is that this would probably costs billions to implement - a small price for human decency.

End of self-righteous, ironic rant for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 07:23 PM

Well we had a massive family gathering in deepest Scrumpyshire this evening. There's me who, in the last 18 months, has had a bad shoulder that I can't get seen to, and two terrible bouts of cellulitis (one life-threatening, with an overnight stay in A&E) that I couldn't even see my GP face-to-face about. And there's my sis-in-law, an incredibly dedicated GP who works mainly with students in Exeter. We were both nearly in tears, me regaling her with my woes, her telling us that she was working 13 hours a day, every day, until she dropped...

We're both still here. But she might not be for long. The stresses and strains of being a GP in this country are just too much. I think that this is a pattern repeating right though the NHS and the care sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 04:19 AM

"Northern Ireland is the Deep South"

!970s Comedians must be spinning in their graves trying to work that one into their stand up routines...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 02:49 AM

"the Republic of Ireland is California"

California?

Thanks for the laugh to start the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 02:44 AM

Northern Ireland is sitting pretty at the moment - it effectively has the advantages of EU membership even though it's politically aligned with the UK.
The people yelling about it are hardline British nationalists who are horrified that their statelet isn't suffering the same problems as Britain. And of course Boris Johnson seizes on their protests, which are a wonderful distraction from the real hardship being suffered in Britain.
The EU will undoubtedly loosen some of the health rules on the inspection of goods coming into Northern Ireland; this is not a good thing, in fact. But even doing this will not stop the Unionist yells; they are offended by any difference in Northern Irish and British law. (Except, of course, in cases such as abortion rights, which they keep determinedly Texan, unlike Britain.)
For those who can't understand what's going on, Northern Ireland is the Deep South; the Republic of Ireland is California.
Unlike the early years of the Irish Free State, when Ireland was a fascist state, with suppression of women's rights, devotion to one religion, state censorship of books, films, plays and newspapers, worship of a strongman and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:08 PM

I see Prati Patel is at it again too

New bill quietly gives powers to remove British citizenship without notice

We really are living in a nightmare. My Dad was Polish and came to England after living the nightmare of German and Russian extremism and then joining Anders' Army to fight fascism. He was so happy when he got his British Citizenship because he new he was then safe from being ever forcibly shipped to work camps or being ethnically cleansed. He will be turning in his grave at the efforts this evil woman is going to to deprive British citizens of their basic human rights. What will be next? Revoking citizenship if they are costing the state too much?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 02:37 PM

DtG - "bozone" - that applies aptly to many of my real life neighbours on the local NextDoor App..

[in the extremely conservative/ukip town I'm stuck living in..]

I have to be careful how I argue with 'em, because they know my real name, and where I live...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 01:49 PM

I suspect quite a number of the traditional Labour voters who were fooled by Bozos smoke and mirrors during the last election have already had their eyes opened by the damage already done by Brexit and the blatant profiteering of the Tories. For those that are still in denial I hope the scrapping of plans to improve transport links in the North will show them what this bunch of smarmy Eton gobshites really think of them. Expendable.

Don't get me wrong, I think HS2 was a disaster waiting to happen and i am glad it has been shelved. But all this talk of the northern powerhouse and levelling up was just another con trick. I'm amazed how many people, including some on here, are still apologists for the conmen that are taking money off them.

Talking of Bozo, I saw one of those lists of changed words today. My favourite was "bozone". The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas penetrating. Quite apt I thought :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:28 AM

Rain Dog - on all that we can agree..

.. and doubtful we will see any improvements in the NHS...

cheers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:18 AM

What they want and what they get are two different things.

I don't expect that either you or me will see any major changes to the NHS in our lifetime, pfr. Admittedly our lifetime might be shorter than we previously expected.

Stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 07:03 AM

Rain Dog - you can say what you like, but it does not mean you grasp the full wider political reality...

Powerful Americans and their allies, do not want the British NHS
to continue existing for too much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 06:33 AM

Pfr, I would not say that it struggles to survive. It does struggle to provide an adequate service due to the overwhelming demand. It is some of the patients who struggle to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 06:08 AM

Rain Dog - What I describe is the 'real world' in which our vulneable little island's NHS struggles to survive...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:53 AM

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the NHS is still one of the largest employers in the world, despite the numerous tory governments we have had since it was formed. Things just carry on with different governments tinkering with it in our usual British way.

And yet...

As Steve pointed out, other countries have more doctors per head of population, have better records of care in dealing with various ailments than we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:38 AM

It is in America's ideological and profiteering interests to make sure our NHS fails...

To this end, America has the power and the influence,
to count on help from obedient allied factions of our UK tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 05:07 AM

I don't know how many of you watched the recent 2 part series on BBC 2

Inside the Care Crisis witb Ed Balls

In this two-part series, Ed Balls explores the crisis in the care sector, immersing himself in a care home before entering the world of paid and unpaid home care.

++

It gives an insight into the care industry. He was honest enough to admit that the problem has been ignored by nearly all governments, including the one he was part of himself.

Social care and health are very closely entwined. We have ended up with a system where health care is nationalised but social care is mainly privately run. The councils have had their funding cut and they in turn have cut back on what they spend on social care, yet the demand is rising.

I have said before that all governments have chosen to ignore this problem. It is only now that Johnson has announced his plans to 'sort the social care problem'. Of course he hasn't sorted it but at least he has started the ball rolling. It needs a cross party consensus to sort it, but like i said i doubt we will see that anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:34 AM

You are sidestepping the issue I've painstakingly described, Raindog. We know all that stuff you've brought up. My intention was simply to highlight the significant differences between the spending on health by successive administrations. The inescapable conclusion is that the NHS has been systematically run down by the Cameron/May/Johnson administrations. The numbers flesh out the stuff we've seen regarding queues, waiting lists and unnecessary deaths (as Dave mentions). They confirm the impressions we get from media reporting on the NHS and also confirm that Tories are cynical liars when they profess to care about the health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 04:19 AM

We have just lost a very good friend to a heart attack while he was in the very long queue to have a stent:-(

Yes, queues have been worse due to Covid
Yes, the cost of health care is very high
No, none of that justifies needless deaths because the shower of shits in power want to make more millions for their mates

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 03:21 AM

Well it is not easy to have a sensible conversation about the NHS. It has been likened to a new religion here in the UK.

It does eat up money. No matter how much it is given there is always a need for more. We all have to decide how much we are prepared to pay for it.

++

"Setting the first NHS budget in 1948 was no easy task. The Beveridge report, the 1942 blueprint for the welfare state, suggested £130m.

But as the appointed day grew closer estimates varied, from £108m in the 1944 white paper, then £122m in various cabinet papers, and £134m in the NHS bills laid before Parliament. Some independent estimates put the cost at nearer £230m.

In fact, price rises, higher standards and simple errors in forecasting demand and costs meant that for the full financial year the actual spend turned out to be £373m - in today's prices this was equivalent to around £10.5bn, around a tenth of the NHS budget in 2007."

Data briefing: why NHS budgets have always been a bugbear

++

I even heard recently that Beveridge expected costs to fall as people became healthier. How wrong was he?

Ideally there needs to be cross party agreement on planning for health and social care. I don't think that is likely in my lifetime.