BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:50 AM

People are the same the world over. We are all human beings, act in pretty much the same way, enjoy the same things and have the same hopes and fears. What we need to ask ourselves is why the rates in the UK are skyrocketing while elsewhere they are under control. There is only one plausible answer - the management of the virus is different.

Of course the party line is that they are not responsible for people actions but that round about sums up the governments attitude. Irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:15 AM

When the Blojob-Bunch decided to remove all the rules and restrictions back in June/July, and allowed everything to open up again, Mrs Backwoodsperson and I predicted that it was a blame-shifting exercise and that, when the inevitable ‘next wave’ began, they would blame the populace.

And here we are….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:31 AM

As an aside I often check the 'facts' as reported on social media, including Mudcat, using FullFact

They are usually pretty good and non-biased - Even though they are backed by a Tory doner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:32 AM

Or even Tory Donor. I am not sure if he likes doners...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:39 AM

Thanks Dave, I’ve bookmarked that site. For the record, I like doners, but they don’t like me (don’t ask!).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:40 AM

My pleasure :-)

I was looking at other fact checkers and Snopes in particular seemed a bit too US centric and covered too broad a range but it did lead me to this article about Strategic Lying

Some fascinating stuff in there. Right early on it states This is a technique – honed by Cummings himself during the Brexit campaign and played masterfully during the 2019 election campaign – in which a politician tells a deliberate lie with the purpose of shifting the news agenda onto his or her preferred territory.

A prime example, and I'm sure at least one of the right wingers on here will miss the point and try to refute this again, is the £350,000,000 bus.

The classic strategic lie was the slogan painted on the side of the Leave campaign’s bus during the Brexit referendum that claimed that the UK sent £350 million a week to the EU. It was a figure that was easily, and frequently, rebutted – not just by Remain campaigners but by all the reputable fact-checking organisations.

But that didn’t matter. Cummings, made no attempt to defend the figure in his blog about the campaign but instead described it as “a brilliant communications ploy” saying that it “…worked much better than I thought it would”.

This seems to be what the world of politics has come to. Manipulation of the masses. Hopefully it will only work until the majority of people see it for what it is. I asked on the thread about Trump when he was likely to face charges over his deliberate manipulation and corruption. I said that I hope it is soon as, hopefully, the same fate will hit Boris!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:41 AM

I've had the jabs and no-one has advocated vaccination here more than I have. There's a mask in my pocket that hardly ever sees the light of day. The only evidence I've seen for the efficacy of masks is observational, and all of that evidence is beset by confounding factors. I've made two other main points about masks on the "new news" thread: that mask-abuse is widespread and common, just about normal, behaviour that makes masks either next to useless, useless or worse than useless; and that the vast majority of people who you'd like to see obliged to wear masks are wearing them for no useful purpose as they are not infected. Overwhelmingly, vaccines are the best way forward, no doubt about it. After that, good hygiene and being careful about mixing with people. I've looked at a lot of evidence and I've thought about this a lot, and I may well be wrong about masks. Anyone calling me childish or a toddler because I don't wear a mask is predicating that criticism on a level of certainty that is completely unjustified. You simply can't be any more sure that masks are any good than I can be sure that they're not. You may wish to argue the precautionary principle, and that's a respectable point of view. But here's something else: this virus is staying with us for life. It knows how to mutate, make itself more catching and to dance around our vaccines. So I'd like to know for how many more years, or decades, you'd like to see us in masks...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:42 AM

If we are all responsible for our own public health policies - not just our own health but the way through our actions we impact on others, shouldn't we all, as individuals, get public health funding.

Johnson and his cohorts have washed their hands of any responsibility for taking a leadership role as it costs them more votes than it saves lives, and by not even bothering to engage, their mismanagement is sliding back under the radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 07:13 AM

I think that the main thrust of their exercising responsibility should be a concerted programme of public information and education about the disease, making use of all the media outlets. The emphasis should be on promoting vaccination and careful, responsible behaviour when we're out and about. Anyone remember "Don't die of ignorance?" And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks. I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I get fed up of being criticised for not wearing a mask by the very people who shore up Facebook, etc., by dint of being signed up to such charlatan setups.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:08 AM

”And we have simply got to do something about scurrilous and disreputable organisations such as Facebook, who are doing far more damage than a few idiots like me who don't wear masks.”

Here in the Backwoods, the ‘idiots who don’t wear masks’ are in a very sizeable majority. In our local Morrison’s yesterday, I’d estimate 90% of customers weren’t wearing masks or using the provided hand-sanitiser. Virtually all of the floor-staff were also maskless.

It’s absolutely their right not to wear a mask, no doubt about that. Equally, it’s absolutely my right to wear one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 09:38 AM

Here in the Irish Backwoods, I am confronted by somebody who try to tell me that god is all powerful therfore there is no reason to wear a mask in a church, and another one who says in all seriousness that irish farmers do more damage to the climate than brazilians cutting down rainforests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 10:26 AM

I watched the Green Party speaches live on BBC news yesterday, old leader handing over to new shared leadership team..

They declared their principles and intentions..

More to the point, they said the things I want to hear a British Labour Party say...

It's a shame both parties will be bloody useless in getting rid of the tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 10:41 AM

Spot on there, John. Dunno if you ever read that "new news..." thread, but I've said repeatedly that wearing a mask is a perfectly respectable position. Unfortunately, most people posting there don't think that my standpoint is a respectable one (I even get called names), in spite of the fact that evidence for the effectiveness of masks is all merely observational and doesn't stand up well to scientific rigour. Efforts have been made to replicate mask characteristics in investigations in laboratories, but sucking things through fabrics without a human face and human failings being involved is, well...Which isn't to say the evidence as is isn't useful or that it's wrong, but it certainly isn't strong enough to justify my being called a toddler. The real target of our disapproval should always be vaccine-refusers and the b*ast*ards on social media who put them up to it. Something that Facebook subscribers should reflect on before they come out to criticise anybody for "not doing their bit."

What would be a huge mistake would be to equate the current spike with the July removal of the mask mandate. There's plenty else going on. And let's not forget that numbers started to plummet after the first wave even before masks were made compulsory in shops, etc. Post hoc ergo propter hoc and all that....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

Completely agree, Steve. Despite my own preference for wearing a mask, I don’t berate others whom I come across maskless. I do, however, invite those who get too close to me to socially-distance themselves from me. Except I don’t express myself as politely as that. ;-)

I don’t know whether masks protect either the wearer, or those with whom the wearer comes into close proximity. However, wearing a mask won’t harm me, it doesn’t particularly inconvenience me, and I wear mine properly, so I choose to take what I consider to be the ‘safer’ route. If others choose not to, it’s not a requirement under C-19 regulations, there’s nothing I can do about it, so I’m not going to drive up my BP by getting too excited about it.

FWIW, the (world-wide, US-owned) company that Mrs Backwoodsperson works for has a rule that masks are to be worn at all times that staff aren’t actually sitting at their own work-stations, so mask-wearing is, for her, second-nature now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 12:41 PM

Dave, your Full Fact site may be the equivalent of the Snopes site in the US (it has been running for a couple of decades here, so it has a history.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 01:26 PM

We are all well aware of Steve's 'scientific' reservations on masks by now...

I tend to be in agreement with him.

BUT, I choose to wear masks as a form of personal petty futile protest in a town and region that is dominated by bonehead tory/ukip ideology...

.. and hope that properly worn masks provide at least some protection for me and my loved ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 01:42 PM

The problem with "mask science" is that it isn't possible to set up an ethical control experiment at all, let alone on a large scale (you can hardly order thousands of people to not wear masks for extended periods). All you can do is observe as best you can what people are actually doing or not doing, in their own sweet, uncontrolled ways without oversight from scientists, but even then, your observations aren't able to lead to safe conclusions. For example, if you observe that in one area more people wear masks than in another area, and that the case numbers per capita are lower in that area, it would be unsafe to conclude that the lower numbers were the result of masking up. Just think of all the other variables that get in the way. And think of the stuff I've said about case rates and mask compulsion during the UK's pandemic experience.

I don't argue against masks, but I do argue against compulsion. The evidence we do have may be seen as leaning in favour of masks, but not enough to make masks compulsory. BWM and pfr argue for personal choice. So do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:17 AM

”The evidence we do have may be seen as leaning in favour of masks, but not enough to make masks compulsory. BWM and pfr argue for personal choice.

Not exactly true, in my case.

What I believe is that, on the basis of not knowing for sure whether masks are effective at preventing transmission, but believing also that mask-wearing is very unlikely to actually aid transmission, it’s better to take the course of ‘do no harm’, and that everyone should wear masks in public spaces. However, I also believe that, without compulsion, a significant majority of people will eschew mask-wearing (borne out by my experiences out and about in my local area) and a sizeable number would still refuse to wear masks even if required by law to do so. Under those circumstances, I regard compulsion as pointless - compulsion is only effective if people obey.

My position is that I firmly believe everyone should do the socially-responsible thing and wear a mask in public. But I have no control over other people’s behaviour, so I see no point in allowing what I perceive as the selfishness of non-mask-wearers to upset my personal equilibrium.

To accept that others will refuse to mask-up is not the same thing as to ‘argue for personal choice’. Close, but not exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 01:42 AM

Re-reading my post, perhaps ‘do no harm’ would be better replaced with ‘do least harm’ but, either way, the point is the same…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 02:58 AM

dittoish.. I would support compulsory mask wearing on public transport and indoor public places..

But as a pragmatist, realise the aggro this will cause to employees trying to request ignorant self centre aggressive arseholes comply with the rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:05 AM

I posted a link in the Covid thread about a scientist proving that viruses in general and Covid in particular are spread by both aerosol droplets of less that 5 microns and much larger droplets of up to 100 microns. The article demonstrated that the virus moved by air much more than they originally thought and because of that I shall continue to wear a mask in enclosed public spaces as much as I can. It is personal choice. I used to think it was just to stop me spreading it. I am now more of the opinion that masks can also be effective in preventing me catching it!

This is round about the best article I have seen on the effectiveness of masks and it is criminally negligent of the government to not make such points clear and available to the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:07 AM

Sorry - here is the link

https://theconversation.com/covid-19-masks-faqs-how-can-cloth-stop-a-tiny-virus-whats-the-best-fabric-do-they-protect-the-wearer-146822

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:09 AM

More apologies

Looks too long for the blickifier. C&P it

https://theconversation.com/covid-19-masks-faqs-how-can-cloth-stop-a-tiny-virus-whats-the-best-fabric-do-they-protect-the-wearer-146822

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 03:57 AM

Another dimension to add into the mask discussions. The government always wants to spread the message that thanks to them we, like Pangloss, live in the best of all possible worlds. All is well, the virus is crushed and we don't need to talk about it. Let's stop the meetings with advisors, and look forward to our great successes.

Mask wearing is a visual reminder that it is not so. Every mask you see says "this is not beaten yet". So the government would prefer all masks to be abandoned for PR reasons, whatever the pros and cons of health.

If you think it is more or less neutral in health terms, why not think of it as the modern equivalent of a label badge or tee shirt criticising the governments approach?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:06 AM

ventilation is the answer?
perhaps governments need to introduce public works ventialtion schemes which will also boost the economy, and put money into the hands of consumers rather or as well as than pharm companies.
lidl and aldis etc need to start ventilating their stores better churches need to be ventilated, plus all public buildings,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:09 AM

Good point, DMcG. And I strongly suspect that the government’s purpose in dropping the encouragement to ‘mask-up’ is to strengthen their Blame-Shifting posture when the next wave strikes and, by all the evidence, it’s on its way right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 04:32 AM

backwoodsman, i have no problem with other people wearing masks,i weras them myself where i think necessary
what i do find annoying are idiots who close windows, when it clearly states about leaving them open, these berks would rather catch covid than be cold, why dont they duck off the bus and catch a txi if they do not enjoy being cold.
every twat that closes a window should be made to take a cold shower, to boost their immune system

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:30 AM

To be clear, I'm not a rebel and I wear a mask if there's a rule requiring me to do so. There is always a mask in my pocket. One chap in a bike shop said he would deal with the maskless me only if he and I stood outside the shop (I'd forgotten my mask on that occasion). He lost my business. The chap who runs a pet shop in Bude put up signs and asked me politely, so I masked up. No problem. Our village shop is tiny and compact and I haven't stopped masking up to go in there, even though they don't ask me to. They also only want two in the shop at a time. All good. It's their shop and they are polite about it all. Of course, that same mask, which is reasonably clean as I seldom use it, is a few weeks old. So I'm guilty of mask abuse. Along with almost everybody else. Either you use a new mask every time you take one off (and you never have one on that you raise and lower) or you're guilty, bang to rights. Hands up...?

"My position is that I firmly believe everyone should do the socially-responsible thing and wear a mask in public." [BWM]

Well it's socially-responsible in your opinion. My opinion is that the case is very far from having been made. I firmly believe that there isn't enough evidence for masks to justify going round judging people who choose to do without them.

Next time you go into Morrisons or Sainsbury's, stand at the entrance for a minute or two and watch how many people sail in there who sanitise neither their hands nor their trolley or basket. We don't know if masks do much but we do know that viruses live on hands and hard surfaces. Those people are potentially contaminating everything they touch in the shop. People like that, and people who refuse the vaccine, are the real culprits. Whataboutery not intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

But is it our job to be vigilantes or is it up to the government to be more consistent.
one thing i will be a vigilante about is opening windows on buses, after all we are supposed to be british, if we are going to do masochism let us do it properly, with a stiff upper lip and enjoy the suffering. increase ventilation everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 05:52 AM

Dave, your article is so full of flaws that it's not possible to see its conclusions as in any way reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:11 AM

”Next time you go into Morrisons or Sainsbury's, stand at the entrance for a minute or two and watch how many people sail in there who sanitise neither their hands nor their trolley or basket. We don't know if masks do much but we do know that viruses live on hands and hard surfaces. Those people are potentially contaminating everything they touch in the shop.”

I commented in my post of 23 Oct 21 - 09:08 AM about precisely that, Steve. I use the trolley-sanitiser spray every time I enter Morrison’s or Tesco (we aren’t posh enough to have a Sainsbury’s here in The Backwoods), and I use the hand-sanitiser multiple times while I’m in there. But the C-19 virus’s main transmission method, if you believe ‘The Science’ (and, in the absence of any meaningful, verifiable information elsewhere, I do), is in aerosol so, AFAIC, mask-wearing makes complete sense, so I will continue to do it in all public spaces, whether I’m asked to or not - I regard it as respectful of others, and the civilised thing to do.

If others choose to do the other thing, that’s up to them - nothing I can do about it, and I’m not going to get into public shouting-matches with non-maskers. But, when the inevitable next wave arrives (and it’s cranking-up as we debate the issues here and now), our government of Blame-Shifters won’t be able to accuse me of being one of those whose dereliction to their duties to others has caused it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:17 AM

It's only a dereliction of duty if the thing you're not doing actually does any good. This is the trouble with this debate...

And, as with all respiratory viruses, transmission via hands and surfaces is important. And those hands might just have been mauling a dirty mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:22 AM

Clean, disposable, properly-fitting mask every time, Steve, and once it’s on, I don’t touch it until I’m outside and removing it, at which time I break the ear-loops, bin it, and sanitise my hands again.

It’s a rigmarole but, if you don’t at least try to do it properly, whatever is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:38 AM

Whilst I haven't done an extensive study, I should think it's safe to say that you're in a small minority. And let's say that a typical mask-abuser is infected but doesn't know it. Their mask is contaminated and they're mauling it all the time. That's arguably more dangerous to everyone around than not wearing the thing at all.

However.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 06:48 AM

But I don’t ‘maul it all the time’, as I’ve already explained. You’re starting your old habit of ignoring what’s been said, or wilfully misinterpreting, in order to try to get the last word (or ‘win’, which seems to be one of the necessities of life for you).

So, the last word’s yours - be my guest….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 07:14 AM

I didn't say you. I said a typical mask-abuser, which you are not. Try not to get all prickly before you've read my post properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

" And let's say that a typical mask-abuser is infected but doesn't know it. Their mask is contaminated and they're mauling it all the time. That's arguably more dangerous to everyone around than not wearing the thing at all."

I am curious to know why you should consider that mask warers "maul" their mask frequently. I would think a mask wearer (such as myself I should add) would place their mask on their face prior to going into a shop and remove it once they had left the shop.

That is hardly mauling, and if like me, they get home and wash the said mask it is then cleaned for the next time of use.




.................... and before you suggest that they would take it on and off through various shops I would suggest that many, if not most people do all their shopping in one shop, the supermarket.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

Correction: I’m not ‘prickly’ at all Steve! Far from it - I’m determined not to let your persistence and determination to ‘win’ at all costs get up my nose, hence my willingness to allow you the last word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:42 AM

Gosh, two of you in a row misreading! I said "typical mask-abuser," not "typical mask-wearer." Easy, tigers!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 08:58 AM

Perhaps it would be better for forum-harmony if you didn’t constantly spray your accusations around using your signature broad-brush technique, Steve. Your generalisations, presented by you in your standard ‘I know better than you’’ manner, tend to become very tiresome indeed, and generalisations, by their very nature, are seldom accurate.

It might also be worth your giving some consideration to the fact that there are others here who know stuff, and whose opinions are worth at least as much as your own.

Just a friendly suggestion, in the interests of peace and harmony…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:03 AM

Utter tosh from a bloke who has trouble reading plain English!

That's my last word on this. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:28 AM

You really can’t help some people, can you. They’re just too ‘clever’, I guess. Oh well, I tried…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:39 AM

For those who enjoy the rarefied air of Radio 3 there was an interesting edition of Private Passions today, featuring Rory Stewart talking about his life (as well as giving us his choice of music). He's done a lot of diverse and interesting things, including walking across Nepal, Afghanistan and Iran and standing for the Tory leadership and the post of mayor of London. He's now completely fallen out of politics and he is scathing about Boris Johnson. "He's not on my Christmas list..."

You have to wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:57 AM

Because they are fed up with the likes of that vile witch Angela Raynor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:58 AM

perhaps they see it as a way of bettering themselves getting on in the worlfd achieving fame and or money after all they are the establishment party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 10:04 AM

You have to wonder why some people wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 10:51 AM

It's not my article, Steve! I only posted the link :-) There may be some flaws in it but it is the best I have seen and until I see something better, I shall follow the advice given there. If you want to see the background to the summary given in the article there is a fuller and more scientific piece here

It is beyond my secondary school science lessons but if you would like to read it and refute it in plain terms, I am happy to listen. Going back to an earlier point though, I think I will continue to wear the mask just to annoy Boris :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 11:58 AM

From The Observer.

Why aren’t we in prison, ask Insulate Britain protesters & some mudcat members

"Climate protest group Insulate Britain has revealed its “absolute disbelief” that its members have been allowed to repeatedly disrupt the motorway network, saying it had originally expected its campaign of direct action to last just two days.

As the group prepares for a fresh wave of protests this week, organisers admit they are baffled over why the police have effectively allowed them to keep closing major routes."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:09 PM

"You have to wonder why some people wonder why some erudite people end up being Tories..."

The Tory party is the party of self-interest, the party of the pursuit of money and privilege, the party of austerity only for the weakest in society and the party of devil-take-the-hindmost. And Bonzo is a supporter! Says it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 12:12 PM

Not here and now, Dave. Enough pots at me for one day, thanks!