BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 08:38 AM

1399 - Henry IV crowned King of England.
1400 - Sack of Aleppo

A lot of other things happened in those years, just picked 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 09:06 AM

spb, they are not going to give you a reduction on your pass port so forget about it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 09:23 AM

I'll settle for Freedom of Movement any day of the week (for myself to EU and my partner to UK).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 10:41 AM

Politicians represent those who pay them the most.Steve it is time to stop believing in the system

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 02:22 PM

That's the irony. Political decisions have consequences, and taking ending FoM as an example, the government should at least have the decency to admit that they want the consequences to happen instead of trying to brush collateral damage under the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 21 - 06:04 PM

Steve who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 03:50 AM

spb his name is also steve . governments do not believe in decency they are their to do the bidding of the highest payers that is who they represent, the multi nationals, the very rich

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 05:05 AM

Ah, I didn't know that. You had me scratching my head there and trawling the thread to find out what I might have said...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 04:45 PM

In keeping with the current trend of teachers calling themselves academics at Oxbridge Universities behaving like wokie imbeciles in the name of anti racism, I would suggest USAian universities follow suit by taking down the stars & stripes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:25 AM

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."

Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 11:25 AM

The same MUST apply to marriages between UK nationals. I can't say what I want to say as I would have to use language that is extremely offensive to women. If this actually happens, this proves that everyone who works for the home office is a racist neo-nazis and should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families. Teachers should stand their children up in from of the class and explain to the class how inhumanely their parents are treating decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:45 PM

.... should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families.

Guilt by association. I am not my brother's keeper.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:57 PM

In the case of Home Office officials there is a clear case for that. They choose to apply for the jobs, obey orders and take the pay, They are the individual people enacting inhumanity on fellow human beings, and should not be allowed to hide behind anonymity under the excuse of 'only obeying orders'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:50 PM

Assuming you’re correct, they are the guilty parties, not their families. In the UK, we punish wrong-doers, not their spouses and children - that is a basic legal principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:26 PM

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."
Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.

It was always stated that one intention of Brexit was to stop giving preferential treatment to EU citizens when compared to the rest of the world. This just standardises that treatment. It just means that people coming from EU to marry in UK will be checked by the Home Office, as currently happens with citizens of America, Armenia, Australia and over 100 other countries in the same circumstances.

Details per HM Government are Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:39 PM

How dare you suggest that my Czech partner and I lose the right to choose to do so without the permission of the Home Office. Only a racist would defend levelling down rather than levelling up? If you believe in equality then did you seek Home Office permission before you got married, or are you a superior race to me???????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 06:23 PM

Quite so SPB, It is disgraceful

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 10:19 PM

GB News channel...????????????????????

.. well I sat through the hour long intro video late last night..

Hmmmmmmm.....



Supposed to be starting full service today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 12:39 AM

When I said these upcomingchanges to subject marriages to EU citizens to the checks was "fairly inevitable" I perhaps did not explain that "fairly". As Nigel correctly says, it was one of the aims to treat EU and non-EU the same, right from the start. The "fairly relates to how it was done: a quiet change of bureaucracy with little notice or public awareness and complete disregard of the fact that real people are affected. It is an example of "act without considering the impact" that I thought fairly inevitable.

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make.any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 03:45 AM

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"

"Could have been given two years"? Instead they've only had a year and a half (1 Jan 2020 to 30 June 2021). It shouldn't need a public information campaign. Anyone wishing to marry has to apply for a marriage license, at that stage they would be reminded of the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM

No, Nigel, I meant two years after the start of the public information campaign that their rights may have been affected. Sorry if that was not clear.

It is far too late to tell prospective couples when they apply for the marriage licence, because they may need to make other changes to, for example, their residency to guarantee the granting of the licence. Those alterations take time.

My biggest objection to this is that the frame of mind of the Home Office is not "this is a change coming because of Brexit, but we will do all we can to make things as easy as possible for you within that constraint". It is more "It's your problem." They appear to see it as a bureaucratic issue more akin to moving some filing cabinets from one floor to another than something that affects real individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:01 AM

"Two years after the public information campaign". So that would be this October then. The public information campaign started before Brexit in October 2019: Here
I know that since then I've seen advertising for applying for settled status on advertising hoardings, in the newspapers and on tv. Even without the advertising I would have expected those who will come under these changes to have searched for information.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:47 AM

Sigh.

The public information that people's marriage rights are changing if they want to marry someone from the EU. That is not the same thing as settled status for someone who is from the EU.

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 08:50 AM

it is not so much the beaurocracy (for that read paying pointless fees to keep a leech in employment to carry out a pointless job), it is the hostile environment that assumes that somoni is going to break immigration law unless they can prove otherwise - ie guilty of intent to carry out a crime until proven innocent.

We already see cases on a daily basis where people who have arrived as part of the Windrush generation facing deportation 50-60 years later due to the the home office failing to keep proper records. We read cases of their children who came over as infants who have only known life in UK, were educated hear and worked to provide vital services and pay decades of taxes being threatened with being removed to another country with which they have no living family ties or emotional connection, and no guarantee of a secure life when they have been deported. We read cases of people from Europe already being turned away because they might not return within 90 days.

And you are asking me to believe this is a FAIR system, and people who intend to get married will be treated fairly? Do you really believe that people who are pursuing their dream of a long and happy relationship together will have no lasting damage when a mindless official whose own lives are pathetic effectively tells the couple that they are not entitled to get married?

Well this may be fine for racist garbage who see this as a means of having less foreigners' lowering their property values, but those of us have to bear the consequences of your xenophobia.

p.s. I have seen a lot of government information abut preparing for leaving the EU. Ridiculous posts dictating to businesses who they can and can't employ, and processes that line the pockets of more leeches for people who want to employ someone from the EU. For example, if I wanted to employ my partner as my pa for a few hour a week I would have to pay a leech to register as an employer, I would have to pay something like £180/hour for a 5-6-7 hour/week job, and it would be a face piece of **** who would make a decision of whether or not I would be allowed to employ her.

This all, collectively evidences that in the view of the government, those who fall in love with someone from outside the UK is a lower species of human being compared with someone who falls in love with a Broth person. Anyone who dares to suggest that this is not Naziism should read Miep Gies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 09:48 AM

Anti immigration enforcement is most probably based on bitter jealous fear
that foreigners can be more attractive and desirable,
than most pasty blotchy potato faced indigenous British xenophobes...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM

Much as though bureaucracy is an inconvenience to all and everybody , SBS,it is essential for the functioning of any modern economy. Don’t forget that Brexit was sold to the British public by newspapers like the Express raging against EU bureaucracy .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.

I acknowledge SPB's post, but chose not to comment on his personal situation even if I could understand his comments. It appears that he, in common with remainers, assumes that Brexit is just a racist policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:50 AM

I am sorry to hear of the problems that SPB and others are now facing due to the change in circumstances.

Do you know how the regulations would affect you if you were to marry and live in your partner's homeland?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 10:50 AM

Yorkshire Bylines hitting the nail on the head as usual :-)

Johnson’s alternative address to the nation

Good evening. Err, um, www, err, sausages, err, um, where was I, err, www, yes, no, Great Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM

Brilliant! All the more so because it’s totally believable…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:04 PM

But perhaps not believable that the PM would say it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:34 PM

"Led by Donkeys" video about the UK reaction to the India variant

It is made more effective, I think, by being almost a strictly factual account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:08 PM

Part of me (wrongly) holds the view that as this is a total f-up my Johnson, the delta variant should be allowed to run rampant (already nudging 200,000 - 250,000 new cases per month compared with 10,000 this time last year) through the c0mmnity rather than inconvenience us. It is Johnson's problem so Johnson should sort it out while we get on with our lives - I know pandemics don't work that way. IT would also mean that any rise in hospitalisations and excess deaths is Johnson problem alone. Even though these numbers are currently low, it can take two weeks to a mpnth for these figures to follow the new infections curve.

Also,as Johnson knew about the risk back in the end of May, it can be safely assumed that cabinet office, senior NHS employees and Health Department officers also knew about this, and should be thrown in prison for failing to leak this to the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 03:32 AM

An excellent example of weasel words here, talking about the Australian deal.
"It contained “the strongest possible provisions for animal welfare”, the prime minister argued, telling journalists: “We had to negotiate very hard.”
So you are meant to read that as the provisions are strong. But it does not say that at all. It simply says they were the best we could get given the desperation to get a deal. An absolutely terrible set of provisions could still be the 'strongest possible'.
In short, you are supposed to focus on the word 'strongest', whereas you should really be focusing on 'possible'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 08:43 PM

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/outsourcing-morality-dido-harding-wants-the-top-job-at-the-nhs/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:13 AM

That really is scary, PFR :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:19 AM

A revolution is needed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:30 AM

Just a decent government, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM

that is difficult to achieve, with gerry mandering and first past the post and mps who represent corporations as well as their constituents. mps are elected to represent the constituents that gave them a majority not represent other outside interests

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 02:11 PM

Voting in a Tory MP,
is like trusting Winnie-the-Pooh with the keys to a honey cupboard...


.. (that's a family friendly version metaphor)..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:00 AM

MPs should represent the best interests of the country, Dick. Just pandering to what their constituents say is populism and that has landed us in the shit we are in today. I do agree about FPTP although I am not sure if PR is the best alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:50 AM

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them, that is their constituents is it not? it is not the intersts of multinationals who pay them a retainer who have effectively bought the MP.
NOT THE BEST INTERST OF THE COUNTRY AND THE BEST INTERST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:03 AM

.. but the best interests of people who vote tory,
is far from compatable with the best interests of the country..

.. that's the problem...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 09:50 AM

Another slide down the slippery slope towards fascism.

If governments cannot be scrutinised and held to account for wrong doing, it is another nail in the coffin for democracy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/electoral-commission-boris-johnson-flat-b1868407.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_med

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:20 AM

The link to the Independent says:
Boris Johnson is to strip the Electoral Commission of the power to prosecute law-breaking, just weeks after it launched an investigation into his controversial flat refurbishment.

The watchdog has been threatened with curbs ever since it embarrassed senior Tory figures by fining Vote Leave for busting spending limits for the Brexit referendum.

I do wonder why "The Electoral Commission", a body responsible for "integrity and transparency of party election finance" was conducting an inquiry into the payment for the PM's flat.
Possibly claims that they are a party political body, and acting beyond their remit, are correct.
Their action against "Vote Leave" following the referendum was judged by the High Court to have been because Vote Leave acted on guidance given to them by The Electoral Commission themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice. it is definitely not mine unless the entire population has the right to break electoral law without fear of prosecution.

I would be equally disgusted if this was proposed by Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, Buckethead or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

It is an essential tenet of democracy that those who breach electoral law must be held to account.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice.

No, that is not a choice I am making. But as I pointed out, the Electoral Commission have not shown themselves suitable to hold such powers.

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions

It has been, yes. Which is no doubt part of the reason the Conservative election Manifesto for 2019 said

We will ensure that
judicial review is available to protect
the rights of the individuals against an
overbearing state, while ensuring that
it is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays. In our first year we will set
up a Constitution, Democracy &
Rights Commission that will examine
these issues in depth, and come
up with proposals to restore trust
in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates.


Which of course immediately raises the question who gets to decide if an action like Gina's is fair or abusing the courts] to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM

DMcG:
Presumably your quote has answered your own question:
In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come up with proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates

Of course it appears that that commission has yet to be set up, but Covid has intervened.
That commission would appear to supersede the Electoral Commission, and the prior removal of the Electoral Commission may be required to allow the Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission to be brought into place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM

Not really. The delay in setting up the commission is almost certainly covid related, so does not need much more commentary.

When Gina brought her case, there is not the slightest doubt that the Government would have stopped the proceedings if they could. The paragraph is in the manifesto, in my opinion, to ensure that if any similar situation arose, they could do so. I can see no other reasonable explanation why it is present.

I feel little reassurance in the promise of a Commission where the Government selects who is a member and whose report is quite possibly only advisory, leading to some Bill that gives Parliament or a Government appointed body the power to stop cases that are felt to be "conducting politics by other means".