BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 05:06 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
Against what currency? Despite a recovery the Rouble value (against the pound or the dollar) is lower than it was on 29 June this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:55 AM

Please list instances where members of the current shadow cabinet or the leader of the opposition have abused their ministerial/prime ministerial powers. Please list instances of laws passed by the current opposition that have brought UK into disrepute.

it is amazing how many idiots are too stupid to realise that the tory party are running the government, not the labour party.

How many parties have did labour hold in Downing Street while others were not allowed to visit their dying loved ones during the pandemic? At the start of the pandemic how many time did a labour prime minister not bother to attend?

What is the name of the labour MP who signed the withdrawal agreement. What is the name of the labour minister/prime minister who is showing contempt for international law and treaties?

Who is the labour health minister who presided over 200,000 deaths form covid, and wasted billions on unsuitable PPE.

Who is the labour prime minister who promoted a sex offender to the role of deputy chief whip?

I could go on and on with this for hours, but I have better thing to do than continue responding to such ridiculous whataboutery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:44 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
liz truss suggests tax cuts ,i suggest removing sanctions that are not working, which will bring down the cost of gas and fuel, and help to reduce inflation.
the whole situation is due to nato provocation, can you imagine, the usa response if russia and china formed a soviet china armaments alliance and put missiles on the canadian border or just across the water from alaska.
rember the bay of pigs this was caused by the wonderful kennedy, putting missiles into turkey, a similiar provocation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:40 AM

i've just rejoined the labour party after a couple of years of being (as ever} irritated by our timid and tory-lite leadership. i got a flyer for a talk by the founder of extinction rebellion in lancaster and realised i'd rather be at a labour branch meeting in cockermouth where i moved from a couple of years back. my new mp is cat smith - she's a hard worker and left the shadow cabinet as she is anti-anti-corbyn. greens may have more radical, sensible policies but.....well i guess i'm happier moaning about leaders/splitters in the labour party with committed friends and comrades. i've always been more red than green and am happy arguing for socialism or the environment in either party. sorry about all the waffling - I had a bit of a realisation that it's a social as well as a socialist thing and also largely a class thing. so i'm back in the labour party for the social life and where i feel comfortable. makes me sound like a tory, eh? i prefer beer and crisps to elderflower whatever and cake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:28 AM

Dave,
i think it is very important, furthermore where someone has read about it does not matter.
the undermining of a leader and the diversion of funds is very important, it makes a mockery of democracy and it is one of the reasons i have left the labour party.
i will vote for labour, but i am not impressed with starmer, but he is better than truss or sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:23 AM

"should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk"

Probably yes, in Argentina you will always find a permanent brick "asado" in a back garden, and BA often has temperatures in excess of 40C.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:16 AM

The other thing is, I think you have the wrong idea about "what about". The tactic is used to divert attention from a major news item or serious blunder. What the opposition may have done 3 years ago hardly warrants the major or serious category. Your suggestion that we should be talking about it as much as current news is risible. It reminds me of a quote I saw the other day.

"Now we have the view of an expert in the field who has spent years studying the subject and, for the sake of balance, the ramblings of someone who read about it on Facebook."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:02 AM

Nigel, the Conservatives are the governing party by a long shot. Their leadership election directly affects the lives of millions. The Labour Party does have problems and you will find that I, along with others, have railed against the leadership and faction divisions on many occasions. However, until we reach the point where Labour are in a position to make a difference, the current leadership election does warrant more attention than the alleged past misdeeds of the opposition party. Nothing to do with whataboutism. Just common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 02:47 AM

should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:54 PM

I really would not have had you down as an avid supporter of the "Morning Star", Nigel. I would have expected you to dismiss it as a reliable source out of hand. Well, we live and learn!

There are other analyses of the report which are more even handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:34 PM

Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.

'Whataboutism'
That works both ways.
Possibly the 'left' on here (the majority) are discussing the Conservative leadership election to avoid discussing the problems of the Labour Party.

As I said, the problems highlighted by the 'Morning Star' have been totally ignored.

Maybe there will be some comment about the call to have Boris on the final ballot for Conservative leader: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:14 PM

I have a quiet bet with myself that if Liz Truss gets to be PM, all the authors of "Britannia Unchained" who are MPs will get a position in the cabinet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:05 PM

”Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.”

He’s a Tory. Whataboutery and nit-picking are all he’s got.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 01:02 PM

Smokescreen to some perhaps. Others might think that it comes under the heading of "other UK political topics".

I somehow doubt that either of the tory leader candicates will offer a cabinet place to the other.

Strange times we are living in. The next couple of years are not looking good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 11:24 AM

Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 11:12 AM

Ok, so it is Liz Truss, or Rishi Sunak for next PM.

It's a difficult one. I think Truss is likely to be far easier for Labour to challenge successfully, but Rishi will do a better job as PM for the country. Truss seems incredibly weak on any thoughts of her own - all her career has been about pleasing her boss and even at these latter stages she seem to have adopted 'what would Thatcher do?' as her model. Which is a bit of a problem for her since Thatcher, whatever you may think of her, had a firm set of beliefs and principles, which Truss has not demonstrated at all. I do not think Truss could actually work out what Thatcher would do for any new situation at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 06:18 AM

Oh Nigel we don't need to slag off the Labour party, we have people to do that for us !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 05:32 AM

Rather than just slag off the Conservative party candidates, how about throwing some light on the Labour Party?
According to Yesterday's Morning Star: "Senior Labour staff created secret fund to undermine Corbyn"
Details Here

An interesting read, but nothing really unexpected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:46 PM

I was thinking that such a role would make her far sweeter, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:38 PM

Thats unfair Steve, I know a few ladies who work on the check-out and Lidl, without exception they are kind, considerate and generous people.

Could anyone say the same for Truss?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 06:13 PM

I suppose her school let her down inasmuch as they prepared her for being a candidate for prime minister when she's actually completely unfit for the role. How unfair. They should have prepared her instead for being a checkout girl at Lidl, where she could do a lot less damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:00 PM

I imagine, Steve, she feels the school let lots of children down but she is so exceptionally intelligent and talented it didn't affect her...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 04:06 PM

Boris a wassack? well he was sacked
wassack - Urban Dictionary
https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=wass...
somebody who doesnt seem to do anything right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 03:41 PM

That as well, I wonder who Starmer would prefer as an opponent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 03:15 PM

She accused the secondary school that she attended in Leeds as letting down the children who went there (even though it's always done fine with OFSTED, not that that means much...). I suppose she feels really let down that her school got her to Oxford and that she's now a candidate for prime minister.

Opportunist, Dick? I have a better word: arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 01:04 PM

Her father was a professor of pure mathematics at the University of Leeds, while her mother was a nurse, teacher, and member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Truss has described both as being "to the left of Labour" When Truss later stood for election to Parliament as a Conservative, her mother agreed to campaign for her, while her father declined to do so.
Truss was President of Oxford University Liberal Democrats and a member of the national executive committee of Liberal Democrat Youth and Students.
imo She appears to be a political opportunist and a person whose motives are personal glory.is she more electable than Sunak?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 12:52 PM

Useful tip if you didn't know, Nigel. If you want to search for an exact phrase, put it in "quotes". It may have saved you the embarrassment of saying Raggy's claim was false when it was no such thing.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 10:32 AM

I think we can safely predict almost all of Kemi Badenoch's votes going to Liz Truss, which would be much more then Mordaunt's tally. The final two looks pretty certain now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 09:48 AM

Nigel, life is too short to play silly buggers with you.

A vote of no confidence took place.

Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 09:37 AM

I searched for Guardian and confidence motion.
It appears from the two quotes that the Guardian disagree with themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:48 AM

Yeah, they didn't hang about when it came to withdrawing the whip from a Mordaunt supporter... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:44 AM

From the article:

"The government won by 349 to 238, a majority of 111. In a highly unusual move, No 10 called the vote of confidence in itself after it rejected a Labour motion that singled out Johnson.

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Labour had originally said it would seek to hold a confidence vote after Johnson announced he was staying on as prime minister until the autumn and a new Conservative leader was in place.

However, the government refused to accept the wording of the Labour motion, which expressed no confidence in the government and the prime minister, so ministers tabled a motion of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 08:33 AM

OK I will put this as simply as I can. Labour wanted to table a motion of no-confidence in the government and Johnson. The tories blocked that motion and substituted their own.

So a vote of no confidence WAS tabled but by the tories which was voted out.

Just as an aside Tobias Ellwood, tory MP for Bouremouth East has had the party whip woithdrawn from him for not supporting the government.

link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:36 AM

It's very easy to find, Nigel. Google gave me this link in the first search I did.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/18/tom-tugendhat-knocked-out-tory-leadership-race-final-four

The quoted line is at the end of the article. I don't know if you did not look very hard deliberately or in error...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 05:04 AM

Raggytash.
What am I supposed to believe. As reported in todays Guardian:

"Conservative MPs voted against a confidence motion in the government on Monday evening, with several giving speeches praising Johnson."

Well, for a start, if you wish to believe the Guardian (and it is often accurate) give a link to your quotes.
According to their online version: Guardian conservatives voted for the motion, not against as you have stated.

From the above link: After rejecting a Labour motion that the Commons had no confidence in Boris Johnson’s government, the Conservatives put forward their own motion to the effect that the House does in fact have confidence in the government. Tory MPs were expected to back the government and carry the motion, and they did. Find out how your MP voted

This is not just pedantry. It is the correction of false claims being made, either deliberately, or in error.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jul 22 - 04:26 AM

Not surprised. Why wouldn't lying s***s with contempt for everyone they see beneath them do anything else than fawn to another lying **** with contempt for everyone his sees beneath him. As far as they are concerned, they are our masters, and in their eyes the likes of us are sub-humans who are a drain on their pockets by living to long after we are non longer fit for purpose to add to their wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 07:35 PM

What am I supposed to belive. As reported in todays Guardian:

"Conservative MPs voted against a confidence motion in the government on Monday evening, with several giving speeches praising Johnson."

Or am I supposed to believe a pedant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 06:14 PM

As you all know, I limit my posts to avoid pointless arguments, so this will be my last on this topic.

I was asking for ways to hold a vote that Labour could call to get rid of Johnson. In fact, the 'simple' no-confidence vote was the one I said said I would have gone with at the outset, so no, I don't think I have fallen into any kind of trap of inconsistency. I saw it then as possible, but unlikely to be successful.

But the problem is that does not work unless it can be strongly bound to a vote on Johnson.   Calling a vote that you would almost certainly lose that is not strongly linked achieved nothing. It achieves neither of the goals Labour might want: it does not get rid of Johnson, but nor does it show MPs supporting him: "we were supporting the government, not him."

To stand a chance it was necessary to break the lie that many MPs will have fallen for, just as I am afraid Nigel did, that voting for a no confidence leads to a General Election.   It is a deliberate misrepresentation of what must happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 04:31 PM

A majority belief in something doesn't make it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 03:48 PM

Is there anything you cannot argue semantics about Nigel? Everyone, bar you, understands what is being said. Maybe you need to find another hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 02:58 PM

DMcG:
As I pointed out, no it doesn't. Losing a vote of no confidence would kick in a period of 14 days during which the Conservatives could propose some other person who commands the majority of the house. With the majority they have, that should be relatively easy. The only person guaranteed to lose their position would be Johnson.

That seems to answer your earlier question:
If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 01:01 PM

Herself is enduring the coverage of That Debate downstairs, while (despite the heat) I'm cowering upstairs, not quite out of range. I didn't realise quite how much de Pfeffel's voice sounds like quacking, which makes sense once one has heard of duckspeak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 12:14 PM

Labour can try to bring down the government by a vote of confidence in the government. Which would (if successful) bring about a General Election.
As I pointed out, no it doesn't. Losing a vote of no confidence would kick in a period of 14 days during which the Conservatives could propose some other person who commands the majority of the house. With the majority they have, that should be relatively easy. The only person guaranteed to lose their position would be Johnson.

As to why? Well, there are several reasons but one that might appeal to the Conservatives might to show that they have found Johnson's behaviour unacceptable and rather than let him leave 'with his head held high' they think it would be better for the next leader if he was dismissed taking all the blame for parties and other misjudgements. It would help to sell the story that all the dubious behaviour was due to Johnson, and it is genuinely a rejection of that style of government.

I think that would be a hard sell, but that politics for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 12:00 PM

If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it. The only other alternative is to do nothing.

Can't think of anything. But why try to remove him when he's already going?
Only his own party can request a vote of confidence in him. They did, he survived it.
Labour can try to bring down the government by a vote of confidence in the government. Which would (if successful) bring about a General Election.
Other than that, the question of who leads the Conservative Party is not really a matter for the Labour Party.
If you want to see it from a different perspective, the Conservative Party had no control over Blair handing control to Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 10:38 AM

The is no way Labour could have a vote of no-confidence in Johnson except by a no confidence in the government under Johnson, which is what they opted for.

A vote purely on Johnson would not be granted, but if it was the Conservatives could all abstain, and it would not be binding. The only binding vote and compulsory vote is a no confidence vote. That is why that is the option I would have gone for, as I said.

If anyone - Steve, Nigel or anyone else - can propose a way Labour could have called for any vote to remove Johnson that would be granted and binding, I'd be interested to hear it. The only other alternative is to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 09:43 AM

Raggytash:
I am afraid that Nigel, who is known to be a pedant of the extreme varity, is failing to ackowledge that the Labour party did indeed ask for a vote of no confidence in the government.
No, they did not. A call for a vote of confidence in the government would have led to debate and a vote. They decided to wreck their own attempt at getting a vote. For what reason I cannot know.

DMcG: It is not how I would have played the game, but I don't see it was a stupid blunder.   The options before Labour were to do nothing, call for a standard confidence vote, call for a general vote on whether Johnson should stay, or call for a no-confidence vote in Johnson. They opted for the latter. They would not have been granted the general vote on Johnson, because there is no requirement such a motion be granted in any timescale.
They did not 'opt for the latter' (a confidence vote in Johnson). They combined the options of a vote of confidence in the government with a vote of confidence in Johnson.
Basically, they messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 22 - 02:32 AM

It is not how I would have played the game, but I don't see it was a stupid blunder.   The options before Labour were to do nothing, call for a standard confidence vote, call for a general vote on whether Johnson should stay, or call for a no-confidence vote in Johnson. They opted for the latter. They would not have been granted the general vote on Johnson, because there is no requirement such a motion be granted in any timescale.

My personal preference would have been to call for a standard confidence vote and then at every opportunity during the debate point out that a loss did not mean a general election must be called: since the Conservative party is large enough they could go to the Queen and say Raab or someone had the confidence of the house and so could form a new Conservative government for the interim.   That is, throughout the whole debate keep emphasising all those voting for the confidence motion are really just voting to keep Johnson in position, not the party. There would be no general election.

But that is risky. The whole point of the vote was to get MPs to vote in favour of keeping Johnson in power, and without the explicit mention of him, Labour would not be able to say 'your MP voted to keep Johnson even after he was forced out' on campaign literature. That will be much harder without the reference to Johnson in the motion, but it is still just about possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:23 PM

They did, but the fact that they mixed Boris up within the motion was a stupid blunder. I'm still a Labour Party member, but I must admit that I groaned and held my head in my hands when I saw what they were doing with that motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:18 PM

I am afraid that Nigel, who is known to be a pedant of the extreme varity, is failing to ackowledge that the Labour party did indeed ask for a vote of no confidence in the government.

That is was perchance badly worded does not change that fact.

They DID ask for a vote of no confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 22 - 07:09 PM

Nigel is correct, actually. The wording of Labour's no confidence motion was a blunder that allowed the Tories to make fools of Labour. It's precisely the kind of thing that worries me about Starmer. What a cockup.