BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM

It's by no means unusual for journalists to carry out what is genuinely work in a drinking context - interviews and such carried out in pubs etc. I'd suspect that would have been very much Boris's style. And the same can be true in political circles - beer and sandwiches in negotiations with Trades Unions back in the old days, political shenanigans in the Commons Bars.

In itself the presence of drink doesn't rule out the possibility that people are working. But there's a limit, and it seems clear that this was well and truly crossed on numerous occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

Raggy, in every company I worked for from 1980 until I retired in 2012, alcohol was forbidden on the premises. Bringing alcohol on to company premises would render the offender subject to disciplinary proceedings for gross misconduct, putting it into the same group of offences as assault, fighting, sexual harassment, theft, etc., the penalty for which was dismissal without notice.

That rule applied to every employee and director, from the MD/CEO downwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM

" all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

I don't know about your personal working life Nigel but in any position I have ever held if I had turned up to a meeting with a bottle of wine questions about my suitabitity for the position may have been questioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM

That does indeed add a new perspective, and shines a - rather unsteady - light on the doings of our superiors, elected or no. "All day every day", is it? No wonder BJ didn't notice there was more alcohol around than usual. It's a wonder he was able to shamble back into the housie to "continue working", or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:44 PM

The Telegraph (Ok, not impartial) has today (Sunday) quoted a blog from Dominic Cummings (possibly the source of anti-Boris briefings) which sheds a whole new light on 'Partygate':
"Because No10s political and communications operation has imploded, it has failed to explain something very obvious to anybody working there at the time: No10 staff were ENCOURAGED to have meetings in the garden April-August for the obvious reason that we were in a pandemic with an airborne disease and being outside was safer! all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

Adds a new perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Me? Ironic? Surely not...

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM

I'm certain sure that you're being ironic in making a "sweeping statement" such as that, Dave the Gnome. Amidst all the flotsam, jetsam and swimming rodents surrounding the wreck of the Ship of State, one question occurs to me which I haven't yet heard asked about the various get-togethers in Downing Street; why is it that those who were best informed about the Coronavirus were clearly unconcerned about any consequences of such gatherings, at least with regard to health? Or were they all wearing PPE?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:14 PM

I see that the Islamophobia that everyone else knew existed in the Tory Party has now surfaced in the mainstream media. Still, could be worse. We could have ended up with Jeremy Corbyn...

LABOUR ANTISEMITISM!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:11 AM

Two legs on my Bonzo, but he's still posting along.....

Sorry, couldn't resist it......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:55 AM

Sorry for the typo reducing Bonzo's legs even further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:53 AM

This seems a strange diversion into personal taxation arising from a comment of Bonzo2Legs, when we had been talking about MPs potentially being 'blackmailed'. Admittedly we only got there after queries about the most aesthetically way of phrasing it, rather than the substance.

The current state of play is that the MP concerned, Christian Wakeford, has told the Sunday Times that the threat came from Gavin WIlliamson, then Education Secretary. Quoting the article:

In October 2020 the footballer Marcus Rashford vented his despair at MPs voting down proposals to extend free school meals during holidays. He was not the only one.

Christian Wakeford, then Conservative MP for Bury South, a few miles north of Rashford’s Manchester United home ground, Old Trafford, was also appalled by the move. The 37-year-old, who had been elected to the Commons the previous year, told friends it was mean-spirited and the opposite of what red wall MPs were elected to do.

Yet rather than voting for the opposition motion on school meals, and against the government, he abstained. His decision was informed by a conversation he had had with a colleague shortly before the vote.

Wakeford says Gavin Williamson, then education secretary, pulled him out of the Members’ Dining Room of the House of Commons and threatened to cancel plans for a new school in his constituency if he did “not vote in one particular way”. He first made the allegation, without identifying the culprit, last week.

Asked today who threatened to scrap the school, he said: “It was Gavin Williamson.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 04:57 PM

Everywhere I looked, Nigel (and it's been a couple of years and I can't remember exactly), the advice was that you could give £3000 per annum before tax liabilities potentially kicked in, plus a number of gifts not exceeding £250 each, but it was not made clear that this only applied if your assets went beyond the nil rate band. Understand that most of us non-millionaires only have to grapple with this a couple of times, if that, in our lives, and that it's a learning curve every time. I spent hours and hours on this, wondering whether my mum could give all us kids the money from house she'd sold for £125000 after my dad died (she could, no hassle), without a tax liability kicking in. We're not all accountants or people who are genned up on every aspect of tax law. The information on this was extremely difficult to obtain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 03:06 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful..

You probably didn't look at the HMRC advice, which appears to be both clear and explicit. Any other 'advice' is based on the HMRC instructions, but may lose something in translation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

It has been alleged that Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Still no better, Nigel. It loses the emphasis of the first where it says "it has been alleged amid growing concerns" etc. Anywho - Here is the headline that you missed which states in big letters, twice, that it is an allegation

Tory whips allegedly tried to smear Christian Wakeford after defection

Exclusive: Allegations emerge of attempts to spread rumours about Bury South MP minutes after he crossed floor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:33 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes

But if you do forget you can carry the £3000- gift exemption forward to next year (but for 1 year only)
Also, if you made no gifts last year (6 April 2020 - 5 April 2021) you can carry that year's exemption forward and gift £6,000- this tax year without affecting inheritance tax.

HMRC Inheritance Tax - Gifts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:23 AM

Dave: If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment yes, they would need to re-write it slightly, such as by adding 'that' after 'alleged'

Steve: We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!
The easiest way to avoid being sued is to quote the truth. 'Weasel words' are only required by those who rush to print without first checking their facts/sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:16 AM

The deadline to file UK 2021 tax return and pay any tax due remains 31 January 2022. The penalty waivers will mean that:

1. anyone who cannot file their return by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late filing penalty if they file online by 28 February

2. anyone who cannot pay their Self Assessment tax by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late payment penalty if they pay their tax in full, or set up a Time to Pay arrangement, by 1 April

However - Interest will be payable from 1 February, as usual on any unpaid tax, so it is still better to pay on time if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

Actually, things such as "it has been alleged" come into a similar category as "experts have found that..." and "it has been claimed...", all prime examples of weasel words. We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment it loses grammatical correctness and that would have been picked up by you instead, Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Referring back to the article, I note that the headline of the piece, which I didn't quote, has "allegedly" as its third word.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM

Take it up with the Grauniad, Nigel. I found the report to be unobjectionable, though corroboration is clearly needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

From the latest post:
Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Would it be too much to ask that the 'it has been alleged' came at the start of the comment?

This smacks of comments on BBC where a tirade is given against someone, and, at the very end, they add thge word 'allegedly' to try and cover themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM

From the Guardian website on Friday:

Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

The Guardian has been told that senior members of the government spread the rumours in parliament after the MP for Bury South crossed the floor on Wednesday.

A Labour source said the party had prepared Wakeford before his defection for the possibility of the Tories or hostile media trying to dig around in his private life.

Well now. That all has to be substantiated. Does it seem within spec to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM

He has probably got them this senior school at least. If there is no sign of it being approved by the next general election, it will certainly be remembered and count against the Conservative candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I hope not too. He needs (not necessarily deserves) the chance to show that he's the real deal, a proper fighter for his community, which, for goodness sake, needs a fighter. One of the reasons he crossed was because he couldn't stomach the threat of the whip attacking his community.

If Johnson were to be chucked out and replaced, it wouldn't trigger an election, would it? Yet there's been plenty of chatter about it was Johnson's charisma wot won it... Watch out for double standards here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

I don't think there will be a byelection even if there is a strong call for it. Just my opinion of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM

It seems there is a strong call for a bye election in Bury. That would be a real problem for Labour. Their original candidate only lost by about 400 votes. It is reasonable to assume Christian Wakeford would lose some votes by being seen as untrustworthy or a turncoat, to quote some of the accusations. So who should they have as their candidate? Tricky...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM

Steve: "The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months.

If you had read the comment immediately above yours you would see that I had already agreed with Raggytash that "It works both ways!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

I was on Question Tume once as well, though I did not ask a question (which would have been about the cost of repairs to the Houses of Parliament
)

There was a fairly elaborate interview beforehand, as Steve reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months. Tories never, ever lie about anything. Why, we know that "conservatism" and "integrity" are actual similes!

Don't we, Nigel?

I was actually in a Question Time audience once. Before we were selected we were grilled over the telephone about our circumstances, our views on all sorts and our political affiliations or allegiances. The panel was Shami Chakrabarti, Margaret ******* Hodge, that LibDem MP who had to leave in disgrace over a rent-boy scandal - Mark Oaten, that was him - Liam ******* Fox and some right-wing bellend who once justified waterboarding at Gitmo. My lad, in his early twenties at the time, kept elbowing me in the ribs to stick my hand up. It worked and Bumblebee picked me out. So I made an extremely boring comment during an extremely boring topic about whether the Lords should be elected. Three million people saw me doing it. It's been downhill ever since...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM

Raggytash: Yes, it can work both ways.

It could also be that members of the audience did not wish to speak out and be identified. It's a common occurrence, to avoid vilification. The UK often has a 'silent majority' which is why pollsters can predict elections/referendums one way, but, following a secret ballot, the outcome confounds them.
The Conservatives insisted on proper secret ballots for 'industrial action' to prevent the old-fashioned 'show of hands' intimidating those at union meetings from showing their true feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM

Sorry Nigel. I know you are not chief Whip! Stephen Kerr is and I missed out his name. Mea Culpa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM

Nigel, chief whip for Scottish Conservatives, was on the panal and even he does not support Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

You may be correct Nigel and if you are surely conservatives supporters could claim to be labour supporters just as easily as labour supporters could claim to be conservative supporters.

Just saying like ....................

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM

Dave (tG):
Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

At least Fiona followed it up by saying "I know we have Conservatives in the audience" otherwise I would have assumed that they had an all Left audience.
The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 05:00 AM

I did! Quite a moment was that. If I were 40 years younger and Scottish I think I might be joining the SNP... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:41 AM

I think it's probably legal to sell alcohol anywhere now it is classed as office supplies :-D

Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM

The Ghanaian footballer Thomas Partey, who was sent off for Arsenal tonight against Liverpool, has been dubbed by the Liverpool Echo and lots of others "Thomas Work-Event."

Liverpool beat Arsenal 2-0 on aggregate to go through the Carabao Cup final (we used to call it the League Cup), by the way. Can't think why I mentioned that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:36 PM

As with Dud applying for the job of Tarzan, even though he had only the one leg ("a unidexter"), with Pete as the interviewer:

Pete:
Well, Mr. Spiggott, need I point out to you where your deficiency lies as regards landing the role?

Dud:
Yes, I think you ought to.

Pete:
Need I say without overmuch emphasis that it is in the leg division that you are deficient.

Dud:
The leg division?

Pete:
Yes, the leg division, Mr. Spiggott. You are deficient in it to the tune of one. Your right leg I like. I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role. That's what I said when I saw you come in. I said "A lovely leg for the role." I've got nothing against your right leg. The trouble is - neither have you....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:18 PM

Don't try that here, Steve. You have not got a leg to stand on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

Which reminds me...See joke thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 10:47 AM

Well I never! Thanks Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 09:49 AM

Dave: Talking about 'daft arguments':
Apparently cutting off the wrong leg does not debar you from being a surgeon: BBC News 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:38 AM

There are some really daft arguments on radio talk shows at times. Today's cracker

"Well, we all make mistakes. We should just let him get on with his job"

I wonder if he would say that about a surgeon who cut the wrong leg off?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM

A bit of sour grapes, Nigel?

Many people in Labour will have mixed feelings about Christian Wakefield. But his defection was no sudden decision. He's been unhappy with Tory policies for a while (a mind-changer, definitely, on some) and has been contemplating this move for months. He's also worked closely with Barry Gardiner, who likes him and who encouraged him to join Labour. He's a Lancashire lad, from Burnley, hardly the most affluent area of the country, though his forays as a Tory in local government politics in the area centred more around the rural (Tory) parts around Pendle. I'm confident that he'll find that his true, natural home will be in Labour.

I know that constituency better than any other (as Dave will know). My mum was brought up in Whitefield, in a street that would have been just behind Morrisons, and went to school in Prestwich at Our Lady Of Grace. My grandad and uncle both played in Besses brass band, and grandad and grandma lived in a tiny council house in Whitefield. I was born and bred in Radcliffe, where my mum and dad lived all their 67 years of married life until my dad died in 2018, so I was up there an awful lot even though I moved away half a century ago. I watched the awful decline of Radcliffe from being a bustling and vibrant mill town with an amazing sense of community into a sorry, hollowed-out backwater with no secondary schools and just about the dowdiest town centre you've ever seen, made worse by being sliced in two by a huge arterial road, all-in-all a typical plight of many a northern town ignored by politicians.


On the day of his defection, Wakeford wrote, "the policies of the Conservative government that you [Johnson] lead are doing nothing to help the people of my constituency and indeed are only making the struggles they face on a daily basis worse." He wrote that he had no doubt his constituents would best benefit from his "joining a party that genuinely has their interests at heart."

I strongly feel, knowing the area as I do, that he's the sort of MP that's sorely needed there. As long as he remains sincere. A big if...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:47 AM

Nigel might be very surprised to learn that I agree with the principle proposed in the Manchester Evening News article that, when an MP ‘crosses the floor’ and changes his/her party-affiliation, there should be a by-election in their constituency. For the past fifty years or more, the inclusion of party-affiliation on election polling slips has meant that votes are probably cast less on the basis of the individual, and far more on the basis of the party under whose banner they are standing for election. It seems to me to be only fair that, having elected the candidate of a specific party to serve for a full term, constituents should be given the opportunity to vote again if the elected Member decides to transfer to a different side.