BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:26 PM

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 12:28 PM

A bit like how we ended up with brexit then, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 01:28 PM

I'd have been less suspicious of brexit,
if it had been the Labour party who had propsed and campainged for it,
instead of posh rich tories, farage, ukip, britain first, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

.. but the real alarm siren for me,
was when trump and his cult of cronies started bigging up farage and brexit..

.. not that surprising if putin and Cchina are also fully in favour
of breaking up and destabilising Europe...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 02:42 AM

What are we all going to do with our last 2 days in the EU then? I'm going to eat and drink all the European leftovers from Christmas :-)

Post Brexit? Only one option really - Instead of remainers we can become rejoiners! OK, it may not be on as good terms as we had but must be better than Bozzers "deal".

Subject: BS: incompetent british prime minsters
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:33 AM

For many years this honour seemed to belong to Callaghan , who could not sort out a dustmans strike and let Thatxcher in to power.
however Cameron surpassed, sunny jim, by allowing a referendum on the EU,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM

Bonzo not a joke. i understand why a capitalist lackey dislikes corbyn , because corbyn unlike you has principles you are the person whose only consideration when investing is how much money you can make

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 04:11 AM

Should be in the British politics thread surely.

In the meanwhile my vote goes to Bozzer . "Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:04 AM

I simply can't understand why Starmer is whipping Labour MPs to vote in favour of this deal. When the inevitable happens and things go belly-up, Johnson will be able to turn round and say, well, you did vote for it...

This is a stinkin' Tory deal and the Tories alone must own it (I note that all the other parliamentary parties are going to vote against). Starmer was the fence-sitter par excellence over a second referendum, and now he's being pusillanimous in failing to do what an opposition is supposed to do, oppose bad government policies. He's a bloody disaster for my party. I'm considering my position here...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:29 AM

Edward Heath. Tricked us into Europe on such disastrous terms that even Labour tried to renegotiate, with as much success as you might expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM

yes, i've just watched ian blackford speaking in the debate. he was very impressive in making an unanswerable case for rejecting the deal, particularly for scotland. he dealt with the 'muttering' 'lying' 'shame on you' 'deceitful' tories with contempt. he noted that every party in scotland has united to oppose the tories - including scottish labour. Not one labour mp stood up to challenge him - or to support him. keir starmer sat motionless throughout - utterly discredited. his support for the tory project revealed as a cowardly, narrow, politically cynical, useless stunt.

i left the party a few months back - our brief flirtation with progressive and principled politics having been killed off by the dark forces of 'labour' rightwingers - and joined the greens yesterday.

happy new year everyone

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. I'd say that it's not possible to blame Heath (if you really must blame anybody) exclusively. The Labour Party connived, as did the electorate.

The Cameron regime put the poorest in this country through years of miserable austerity, which didn't have the effect he desired and which history will judge to have been completely unnecessary. His hubris convinced him that he would win the referendum. Instead, he pitched us into four useless years of wrangling and a dishonourable and shabby exit from the best trading bloc (among many other of its positive attributes) we could ever have belonged to. He gets my vote, though he is facing stiff competition from the present incumbent, and he will no doubt soon be overtaken in the crass stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM

I left the Labour party a few weeks back on principle. I was a member of the Greens too but cancelled my membership there due to an administrative cock up that proved they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. When Labour return to their core values and stop pandering to the ludicrous right wing Israeli lobby I may rejoin.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM

And speaking of the Cameron years, don't get me started on the inhuman and humiliating treatment that millions of sick, disabled and unemployed people had to endure under Iain Duncan-Smith, not to speak of the "liberation" of the labour market via zero-hours contracts, fake apprenticeship schemes, forcing millions to declare themselves to be "self-employed" (equals no sick pay, no holiday pay, no maternity pay) and the stripping away of workers' rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM

I don't envy Starmer's position at all in this. But if people say they can't understand why he is voting as he is, they are saying if no-deal happens they do not recognise that tbe Tories will claim for the next 50 years that they had a deal but Labour wrecked it, so all blame is on Labour. After all, look how much mileage they have got out of 'The Winter of Discontent'.

Now, maybe since the ERG have said they will support the deal the arithmetic has changed a bit and the risks are lower, but do not doubt that if Labour voted against a deal and we ended up in no deal, Labour would be saddled with all the blame for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

This YouGov poll is pertinent to the discussion:

"According to new polling by YouGov, Britons overwhelmingly - by a margin of more than six to one - want MPs to pass the trade deal legislation. Even remain supporters and Labour supporters are far more likely to say M MPs should vote in favour than vote against, the poll suggests.

But the poll also suggests that fewer than one in five people think it is a good deal. Even Conservative supporters and leave supporters are more inclined to see it as “neither good nor bad” than as a mainly positive achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:49 AM

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership.
The 2016 referendum took place under a Conservative government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. It was only because of a disconnect between the government and the public that support for UKIP rose to such a level that Cameron felt threatened and offered a referendum. Both major parties were still in favour of continuing with our membership.

In more recent years it seems difficult to tell whether the party leaders (particularly May, Corbyn & Starmer) support membership of the EU or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:08 AM

That's all very well, but this deal is going through whatever Labour do. That's the position and that should inform Labour's stance. I repeat: this is a Tory deal and history must record that the Tories alone own it.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:27 AM

I'm sticking with Heath. If he'd done the job properly, i.e. from a position of strength, we might still be in the EU today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM

As I say, now the the ERG appears to be in favour of the deal, the arithmetic has changed. Until then, it was quite feasible the deal fell if a substantial part of the ERG group and Labour (plus SNP and others) voted against. Now the ERG appears settled in favour, the risk of no deal is a lot lower. We might get some clue in an hour or so whether it would have fallen without Labour - or we may not, I suspect it will not be that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:57 AM

I still haven't forgiven Boris for saying Jo Cox's memory should be honoured by getting Brexit done - when that was the thing she didn't want.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:26 AM

Well the last two were progressively worse but this latest buffoon is set to leave them standing in the stupidity stakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

labour - or parliament - did not have to support this deal. at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis. now labour have supported us leaving the EU. leaving the EU at the worst possible time. leaving the EU without having had any say in deciding the terms of departure. supported us leaving the EU at the worst possible terms for vulnerable workers, uk migrants in europe. leaving the EU - supporting tories to do critical damage to our industries and services. and erasmus ffs!

all because they never had the bottle to stand up to the nicotine-stained man frog. and politically out-manoeuvred by boris johnson. they are trying to appeal to the mindset of voters who will never be appeased no matter how far right labour go - preferring this tactic to supporting the views of all their supporters and all of us who rely on them.

thoroughly embarrassing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis.

Not in practice. Only the government can introduce such a law directly, not Labour or the other parties. Labour might have been able to attach such an amendment to some other bill, but that would rely on the Speaker selecting it, which he would be unlikely to do unless it was specifically about the bill. He would probably not have allowed it, for example, as an amendment to the Internal Market bill.

Now the bill has passed (for all practical purposes) we need to build from where we are, not where we could have been in other circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:03 AM

Just in case anyone misunderstands me when I say we have to work from where we are, I do *not* mean forget all the past. Our future options are limited by what we can do for each next step, but the past informs us not only what we have lost, but what can be achieved, so it can set a direction of travel. For example, there is no inherent reason we should permanently lose access to the security databases. There will be a price in cash and, yes, in sovereignty, but it can be done if we want.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:04 AM

Well.. the Post office is issuing notice that sending parcels to Europe
is going to become much more difficult;

and a major European music software developer has emailed
that Brits may not be able to purchase their products
until they try to understand and sort out practicalities of any new rules...

wot a fackup...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM

My age group who were students during the early 80s
are still inclined to automatically nominate thatcher...!!!

.. though boris is nudging closer to usurping her...

.. but when he is pushed out, dread to think which tory **** will replace him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:25 AM

Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics Operations Manager of the U.K. Division of the European arm of a world-wide petro-chemical processing company. She is still waiting to hear what new regulations will prevail, and what documentation will be required, in order to import goods from, and export goods to, the EU w.e.f. Friday, 1st January, 2021.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:52 AM

I had a look at the Prusa (a respected Czech maker of 3D printers) website yesterday and saw they had a notice saying they had suspended taking orders from the UK because of the Brexit situation.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:24 AM

After Labour was defeated at the 1970 general election, Callaghan played a key role in the Shadow Cabinet. He became Foreign Secretary in 1974 upon Labour regaining government, taking responsibility for renegotiating the terms of the UK's membership of the European Communities, and supporting a "Yes" vote in the 1975 referendum to remain in the EC

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:46 AM

Cameron johnson thatcher are even worse than sunny jim

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:00 AM

Should have thought Anthony Eden worth a shout?

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:32 AM

"Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.
Extremely gentle to Blair.
He did not "make a blunder". He chose to take the UK into an illegal war. He got Parliament to assent based on his claim to have seen definite proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but not being willing to share this evidence with Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:37 AM

Labour or tory, our PMs seem to end up as America's tame lap dogs...

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM

Yes Nigel. They both made catastrophic decisions for the sake of their political careers. Which is pretty much what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:31 AM

not so attlee or harold wilson were they americas tame lap dogs. now heath was very much a european was he an american tame lap dog, he may have been over enthusiastic about europe and may not have negotriated the best terms, please correct me if i am wrong, the last astaement may not be totally informed

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM

mind you heath was a bad PM ,THE MAN THAT GAVE THE UK A 3 DAY WEEK

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:03 AM

'King Boris

Because his only qualification for the job was that he wanted it.

A turncoat just like Trump. And look what is happening there.

And if you thought Callaghan & Heath put the country in queer street, the next four years will be telling.

And on a lighter note, during the 3 day week, in a factory visit, there was a notice on a door saying "Please close door to conserve HEAT" to which someone had appended a "T"

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM

I think callagahn enabled mrs thatcher to get in to power,
i think heath had a disastrous 3 day week , so i was talking about heaths home not foreign policy

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:19 AM

Mr Red, did you mean 'to which someone had appended an "H"'?

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM

Yes an H - I was distracted by Mrs T

Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:43 AM

Also depends how far back:-

Lord Liverpool - presided over the era of Peterloo and the Corn Laws.

Lord John Russell - disastrous response to the Irish potato famine.

The Duke of Wellington's stint as Pm was also pretty disastrous though he did enable the Catholic Emancipation Act as I recall

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 02:54 PM

I hardly dare ask, but does Mrs Backwoodsperson know yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 03:18 PM

Starmer is the Ramsay Macdonald of 2020

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:58 PM

2 more hours! Wow!

[I just remembered time zones.]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:21 PM

39 minutes. It's now 22:21 UTC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM

DMcG - no further info up to yesterday. She’s on leave now until 4/1/21.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 06:00 PM

However, she has contacts, and a plan...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 06:10 PM

News.. Boris's dad applying for French citizenship...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 01:25 AM

No surprise there then...