BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I was surprised by the business with the speaker trying to get Ian Blackfrord to pretend that he believed that Boris Johnson had been "inadvertant" in saying stuff that was untrue to the House. I knew there was a rule against using the word "lie", but I'd always taken it that, if phrased properly, it was in order to make the accusation.

That is irrational. If it has be accepted that lying cannot have taken place, how can it be that a minister who lies must resign, since it is officially impossible for them to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 01:41 PM

When I click in the Independent feed for the 300 photos and 500 pages of text handed to the police as a result of the Gray enquiry I get this appropriate advertisement

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 04:47 PM

Reading not-so-much-between-the-lines, Sue Gray is clearly embittered by the way her report has been kicked about, and she has done her damnedest to make what's left of it to tell it as much as possible like it is. Good for her. Apparently, there is a parliamentary way of forcing the government to release the whole, unexpurgated thing. Dunno how possible it is, but the opposition could table a "humble address", which, if successful, could force Johnson's hand. Thing is, I'm not sure that Starmer wouldn't prefer to leave him where he is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 04:51 PM

There was talk of using the "humble address" last week, so if there is a possibility, I think it could happen.

Meanwhile, an ITV reporter tweeted this after the evening meeting of the Conservative MPs:

An MP who is critical of the PM, comes out of the meeting with him and says “they are f***ing deluded… there is no way we are getting 54 letters”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 07:15 PM

A humble address would only succeed if a whole lot of Tories voted for it, or sat on their hands. I suspect that there are a good few Tories who might vote against Boris in a party vote of confidence who would hesitate to vote for a motion tabled by the Opposition. A matter of tribalism.

It still might be worth having a go. Even if only to show up the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 07:45 PM

Those were my thoughts too. I feel that the pressure to release the unexpurgated Sue Gray report, not some watered-down Met Police version, should be kept up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 22 - 08:50 PM

It looks as if Boris has given way on that - Its been promised that Sue Gray will present an up dated version of her report when the police have done. And the signs are she'll go in hard.

Of course a promise by Boris is as trustworthy as anything else he says, but that should be a hard one to get away with breaking. Though l imagine he will try to find some way to do that.

If Cressida Dick were able to fix the inquiry that might help him, but I think she'd have major problems with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 02:24 AM

The humble address would not be for a confidence vote. It would be to release Gray's full report immediately.

The Tory defence would undoubtedly be "we must wait for the Met to finish their investigation."   So the only way it could really succeed would be if the Met had issued a statement beforehand that they have reached the point its release in full would not impact their investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:19 AM

I think that the chances of Cressida Dick doing that in anything like a hurry are about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle, or, if you don't remember that one, look into the heavens to check for aerially-mobile pork. By the way, she's keeping her head well down, isn't she? She's thoroughly his woman...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:45 AM

I agree that the Met will not release such a statement, and that is why I think a humble address to get at the full report is unlikely, unless, after the Met finish whatever they are up to, Johnson decides not to release the full report after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 06:03 AM

An interesting piece in Labour List this morning. Googleable I hope...

"Why Sue Gray should pass her report to Boris Johnson, immediately and in full" written by John Whitting QC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 08:26 AM

There might well be some Tories who might break ranks and vote for that, but I doubt if there woud be enough. And I suspect that there'd be some mechanism by which the government could defy it anyway - the police request might not have any legal force, but it could and would be claimed that it did, and that would be a way of kicking it all into the long grass.   

They could always get the tame Attorney General to say the the police request had force, and they could rustle up some legal experts who could say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 03:31 PM

"She's thoroughly his woman..."

Did you not think the same about Sue Gray?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 03:34 PM

Has Boris revealed his true colours at last?

He is a true remainder when so many want him to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:14 PM

"Ministers spent almost £9bn on personal protective equipment that was either substandard, defective, past its use-by date or dramatically overpriced, according to figures released on Monday." [David Conn in the Guardian]

On top of the four billion-plus paid out to fraudsters. Oh yes, Johnson made "all the right calls" for sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 04:18 PM

Well it did worry me when Sue Gray got the job, but, utterly unlike the disreputable Cressida Dick, who would have been out of post years ago but for Johnson, she's risen to the task fearlessly and shown solid integrity. Quite possibly to Johnson's surprise and disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 22 - 05:11 PM

Well, she did run a pub in Newry one time, and she's married to an Irish country singer, so I felt she'd likely enough come through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 04:43 AM

I never knew that Kevin. I already thought she had done a good job. She has now gone even higher in my estimation :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:02 AM

I have a funny feeling that the kicking-the-can-down-the-road tactic could rebound on Johnson. During this limbo period before the police speak out there will be a constant drip-drip of new allegations, or twists and turns on current ones. Bring it on, Dom! We love you! But set your satnav to get you back from Barnard Castle as the road signs all have inconveniently small print...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:42 AM

I note the Tories reverting to type, and starting up the character-assassination tactics which served them so well against Jeremy Corbyn, but this time directed towards Keir Starmer.

They must be shitting bricks, if they feel the need to stoop so low once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:17 AM

And the Tories’ ‘Levelling-up’ Minister on ‘Politics Live’ just now, dragging out the tired old Tory trope that the last Labour government ‘bankrupted the country’.

One could be forgiven for believing that, at the same time as they’re hiding their own incompetence behind the Covid-19 pandemic, this government want everyone to forget that the Labour government had to deal with the effects of the world-wide financial crash, and had to spend over £1 trillion supporting our banks (of which a substantial amount was subsequently recovered, but which debt remained at £486 billion at 31st March, 2010).

Nothing to do with ‘Labour incompetents bankrupting the country’, and everything to do with the reckless profligacy of the Tories’ mates, the bankers.

The cost of the 2008 Financial Crash

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:46 AM

There is no end to the lies he will tell

Boris Johnson’s false claim about Jimmy Savile

Come on you Boris supporters on here. How do you justify that one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:49 AM

Sorry - The link maker cut the URL short - Here it is in full

Boris Johnson’s false claim about Jimmy Savile

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 08:53 AM

The viper and Bozos other cronies are defending the indefensible showing that they have no shame either. If that was ever in doubt

Gove says Boris Johnson has ‘nothing to apologise for’

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 11:18 AM

I think Steve is right that kicking the can down the road is likely to work out badly for Boris and the Tories. There is going to be a continuing stream of damaging revelations over the weeks and months. Dominic Cummings is going to ensure that, for one - and he can expect to be joined. By a load of ditched civil servants resentful at being thrown to the wolves to same the shape-changing creep.

And the nearer to the election the Tories ditch Boris, the harder it will be for the new woman or man to break free of his contamination.

And the Covid inquiry is coming along. if they can't nobble it, that should make it harder to get people to buy the lone that he did a great job in responding to the crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 02:45 PM

Just seen a Re-Tweet of an old Liz Truss Tweet - ”Used to see Jimmy Savile at ‘The Flying Pizza’ on Street Lane, Roundhay. Always in good spirits. RIP”? She’s so dense, light bends around her!

And what is it about Nonces and pizza places? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:01 PM

Liz Truss - the Foreign Secretary who thinks the Baltic countries border on the Black Sea. And she could be our next Prime Ministet…

Speaking on the BBC's Sunday Morning show (that used to be Andrew Marr's)"We are supplying and offering extra support into our Baltic allies across the Black Sea”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:17 PM

And right now it's Liz Truss who's in the driving seat as Britain is due to become in breach of its treaty obligations and of its treaty obligations at midnight, with the Nother Ireland DUP first minister ordering its staff to halt all customs checks at its ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 05:58 AM

If Truss breaks treaties then whatever happens is between the rest of the world and the tory party, and has nothing to do whatsoever with the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 08:59 AM

Back to the NHS...

I had call to visit St Luke's today - No, not that one Steve and anyone else of our age from Manchester :-) This one is in Bradford and has a dermatology clinic rather than treating other embarrassing conditions!

Less that 2 weeks ago I went to the doctor with a lump on the side of my nose that I have had for years but had suddenly gone sore. The dermatology clinic sent me an appointment about 3 days later and that was for 10:50 this morning. By 11 I had been assessed. By 12 the lump had been removed. It was a Basal Cell Carcinoma - Cancerous but not dangerous I am glad to say.

It has made me more determined than ever to fight the shower of shits who are trying to sell the NHS off to line their pockets and speak out against the supporters of the shysters who do.

I am afraid I will never understand those, including some on here, who profess to be caring human beings yet continue to vote for those who will obviously trash this gem of a service for their own selfish gain. OK, I can understand them not supporting Labour but for heavens sake, don't keep giving Bozo and his paymasters carte blanche to make themselves richer by effectively killing off the poor!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 09:10 AM

Just came across a wonderful website which included this perfect description of some exchanges on here

"Kamm's Gimlet: Argument-winning technique whereby a writer pens tedious diatribes of such immense length and intellectual flatulence that political opponents lose the will to continue debating.
So called because, like its chief practitioner, a gimlet is a small boring tool."

Plenty more on The Encyclopedia Of Decency

Enjoy :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 22 - 09:37 AM

"And, asked if Mr Johnson always told the truth, Mr Sunak, who has previously made little comment on the Downing Street gatherings, replied: "Yes, of course he does. He's the prime minister of the United Kingdom.""

Well, you can't argue with that…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM

apparently he's after Johnson's job. he may be wiser to stop such dead pan arselickery if he is calculating the best route for a move next door. 'does the chancellor of the exchequer always get his calculations right? of course he does he's the chancellor of the exchequer'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:49 PM

Does Abbopotomus always get her sums right???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:57 PM

We really should have a lever for drawing moderators attention to posts like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 22 - 03:59 PM

Ignore him. It's what living in Croydon does for one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 05:53 AM

same thing happened to my dad in carlisle. he spent his last remaining years sitting in his chair, drinking cheap cider, eating (only) biscuits and slagging off diane abbott, cherie blair, harriet harman, claiming he couldn't understand non-white female newsreaders, reading the daily heil and voting tory and brexit (despite all his family -including 2 grand children in estonia and italy) - arguing with him about it. these nasty old relics are everywhere - how long will it take us to be rid of them? we have to admit you can't have a reasonable discussion with them as politics is just a game and they chose their side decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 01:25 PM

Ageism is no more admirable than any of the other unpleasant isms associated with expressions like "how long will it take us to be rid of them?".

In fact getting rid of "old relics" would be much easier than getting rid of most of the hate objects of some of those other isms.

There are indeed some pretty nasty old people, just as there are some very nasty people of all sorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 02:11 PM

of course. age here is nearly irrelevant i'm no child myself (65) and all members of the current cabinet are way younger than me. my frustation is with the maybe 40% of people who will not change long held opinions about empire, race, forelock-tugging - all opinions constantly indulged by the daily mail and the press in general. my dad asked me to set up a delivery of the Mail til the day he died. people of all ages will stubbornly insist that brexit was a good idea despite all available evidence. now these brexiteers are mostly old (or empty-headed young tory types, i suppose) and those of us who remain are just defrauded, bitter, sad and angry. great, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 22 - 03:16 PM

There are nasty ways of thinking and behaving which are more prevalent in any subsection of humanity. There's an element of truth in many, probably most, stereotypes. But thinking in those kinds of terms is too dangerous to allow ourselves to indulge in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:27 AM

Does anyone else think, as I do, that the entire farce of Johnson’s PM-ship (almost typed ‘PM-shit’ there!) and this Conservative government’s time in power is proof positive that our electoral system of FPTP is utterly discredited, and must be abandoned a.s.a.p. in favour of a system of PR?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:37 AM

Well if it means permanent coalitions, all I can do is refer you to the last one, an unmitigated disaster for working people. I honestly don't think you can blame FPTP for throwing up a dangerous idiot like Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 04:44 AM

the time for PR will be after 2 terms of a green/socialist government that will reset the governance of england back to 1978 (or thereaboots)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:09 AM

If we go back to 78 will I be 25 again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:47 AM

if you like - the workers' revolutionary council will be very generous with any such requests. Or anything that happened after the clash and others anti-racism gig at victoria park has all been a collective dream - now we know better we can crack on and avoid all the mistakes made since.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:57 AM

PR seems to work well, and is very popular, in most other European countries. Surely it’s not beyond the wit of man to devise a system for the UK that would work well?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:16 AM

If someone was born in 33 in 78 they would have been 45 ......... is this a record?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 06:22 AM

Stop trying to put a spin on it, Raggytash!

Are you talking about Vikky Park in London, Pete? I might have been there! That was my stomping ground for a few years in the later 70s...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 07:18 AM

That 2010 coalition was pretty disastrous, but most especially because by almost wiping out the LIb Dems in the subsequent election it led us into Brexit, and hence Boris. And that was a consequence of FPTP.

It has has enabled the Tory party to stay in power for pretty well the whole of the last century. There is every reason to expect that this will still be the case for the next century.. This is in spite of the fact that there has pretty well always been a left of century majority popular vote.
(The only exception to that was in 1931 and 35).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 08:34 AM

Yes, i was often down in london for the big demos those days. i was at stirling uni 75-78 and for the rock against racism gig we had 6 coach loads come down - it was a new and quite radical uni.