BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 07:33 PM

From an ITN report on the Tory Party conference of 2006:

David Cameron said the NHS is safe in his hands as he brought the annual Conservative conference to an end.

Mr Cameron accused Labour of mismanaging the health service and said he would be taking to the streets with a campaign to stop the cuts.

Mr Cameron called the NHS was one of the 20th Century's greatest achievements.

"Tony Blair explained his priorities in three words: education, education, education," he told Tory activists in Bournemouth.

"I can do it in three letters: NHS."

Well let's see. We all know that the Tories, in essence, have been in power for eleven years. We've all heard about how A&E departments have failed for years to meet their targets. We've all seen the queues of ambulances outside hospitals and the patients on trolleys in corridors. We know about how elderly patients can't be discharged because there are no places for them in care homes. We know that nearly six million people are on waiting lists and can expect to wait for one, two or three years to be treated. Actually, there are probably millions more who can't even be bothered to GET on those waiting lists, as they know it would be pointless. I'm one of 'em. I have an issue with my other shoulder (not the one mentioned below) that I can't even get referred for and which I know I'll take to my grave (I've been trying for 21 months and the best I can get is a scrappy emailed page of "exercises" from a physio who won't even see me in person).

Mrs Steve and I have NHS treatment only.

In 2011 Mrs Steve and I had a big issue with her eye problems. She had many procedures and expert care in a Plymouth hospital (that has now been closed down). Not once did any wait for treatment get even close to breaching the 18-week target in place at the time. She's fine now, by the way, thanks to some superb treatment that I'm bloody certain she wouldn't be able to get in timely fashion today. A year or so later I had two issues, once with a bad shoulder and once, more seriously, with my back. For both issues I was referred to a consultant and operated on within six weeks. Six weeks. A pipe dream even for some urgent cancer patients these days... We were bloody lucky. Three or four years later we'd have been in real trouble.

The reason I'm posting this is that I've just seen some graphs on government spending on the NHS since 1949 (source: BBC News website). I can't post the graphs, I know you can look them up for yourselves, but here's the essence. My numbers are honest approximations.

In every administration since 1949, government spending on health has been above inflation (but don't get excited...).

VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS 1949-1979: 3.5% above inflation (roughly the average for the last 70 years).

TORIES 1979-1997 (Thatcher-Major): 3.3%

NEW LABOUR 1997-2010 (Blair-Brown): 6%

COALITION 2010 -2015, Cameron PM): 0.9%

TORIES 2015-2019 (May-Johnson): 1.7%

David Cameron said the NHS is safe in his hands

Yeah, right. So Boris isn't the only liar...

And another set of graphs compared the UK to several EU countries.

As of 2020, the UK had 8.4 nurses per 1000 people.

Germany, 13.9.

France, 11.1.

Italy, 6.7



As of 2020, the UK had three doctors per 1000 people.

Germany, 4.5.

France, 3.4.

Italy, 4.0.

Safe in his hands. sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 21 - 05:39 AM

Sorry!
Didn't spot that it was a quote from earlier in the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 06:44 PM

"now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties"

It might just be me, but I would have thought that "having difficulty coping" was an improvement on "in crisis"

If that statement was a quote then a citation might help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 08:15 AM

"now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties"

Interesting to see that the Labour Party which has not been in power for over 11 years is being blamed for the failures of the Conservative government of that period.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 07:30 AM

The current issue of Private Eye, no. 1560, has an 8 page special report called Profits of Doom - the companies and middlemen who cashed in on covid...and how they did it.

It makes for a depressing read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:49 PM

if you care about the importance of health workers improve their working conditions eg ventilation, show appreciastion by improving their wages. once upon a time uk had fever hospitals which were designed for a specific purpose.
now the uk has a health system, which before the pandemic was in crisis, and is now having difficulty coping, this has been caused by bad government, by both major parties

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:01 PM

Well maybe I'm being devil's advocate, but the point here about the *invasive* nature of vaccination is unarguable, and that does not apply to seatbelts or crash hats. On the other hand, the actual invasive aspect of a vaccination is trivial. I know that, you know that, tens of millions know that. But millions do NOT know that. They have been hoodwinked by idiots on Facebook into thinking that the vaccine is dangerous. They have somehow missed out on the fact that side effects of any severity are extremely rare. The government did an absolutely shite, groaningly head-in-hands job of not reassuring people about side effects last spring. The mass media bigged up the exceptionally rare, and unproven, cases of severe side effects. What that leads to is millions of people dubious about the vaccine. When we had the Aids "Don't die of ignorance" campaign, we had telly adverts and we had billboards everywhere. It struck home. So where are the telly ads and the billboards telling us to get the jab, reassuring us that your arse won't actually drop off if you get jabbed?

And I think I mentioned Facebook there, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 02:58 PM

Sorry - Badly put. You don't have to do the latter every time you go to work is what I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 02:24 PM

I think we have had this discussion before, Steve. If you want to drive a car, you must wear a seat belt. If you want to ride a motor bike, you must wear a crash helmet. If you want to work in health care, you must have a jab. OK. you may say that none of the former two are invasive. Well, the latter is not for all time is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 12:51 PM

"Although it might result in a reduction in the number of health workers I agree (in principle) that health workers should be vaccinated."

There's a bit of a difference between "should" and "must." I could never agree that vaccination, an invasive medical procedure, should be made compulsory under pain of dismissal. The democratic way is to use education and persuasion to convince doubters to take the vaccine.

However, I think this may become almost a non-issue. In France, making the jab compulsory for health workers increased the uptake from 60% to 99%. I have a feeling that Sadge reached his decision having received that knowledge.

I've had my flu jab and I'm having my booster jab on Saturday. Cases are very high round here but the jab will make me feel a tad safer. I feel sorry for Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:19 AM

less likely to go to wales or scotland, it is not on the same island, its easy for people to travel ten or twenty miles across the border.
   I have been vaccinated, but that is not the point, if you are short of workers you need to increase their pay, and improve their working conditions eg ventilation, not just rely on trying to scare people into being vaccinated.
if people have died who are health care workers, i understand this is the case, and IF those people were vaccinated, it proves that the vaccines need to be improved and ventilation needs to be improved.
i understand your point about health care workers dying in the past, but without stats to tell us how many were vaccinated or not vaccinated or had underlying health conditions, no conclusions can be drawn.-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:12 AM

.. OR..

Set up separate isolated wards where only unvaccinated health workers care for unvaccinated covid patients..

Researchers can observe how long they all last, triumphantly festering in the mutual victory
of their uninfringed rights...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 07:03 AM

NORTHERN IRELAND,might find itself in a position where uk health workers leave to work in Rep of Ireland Or Wales or Scotland which have not adopted this rule.

Although it might result in a reduction in the number of health workers I agree (in principle) that health workers should be vaccinated.
At the moment Covid is more likely to lead to hospitalisation, and possibly death, for the unvaccinated. I doubt that health workers would be unaffected by this, meaning that their possibility of death if they catch Covid is greater than for vaccinated health workers. This would also reduce the health service work force, but would increase the possibility of having passed on the disease to colleagues and patients.

We hear a lot of campaigners saying that this infringes their rights, and they should be allowed to make their own choice. Fine, but that choice is whether to work in the health service, or to avoid having the vaccine. Except for those with medical exemptions there is no reason to have unvaccinated people working in the front-line health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:54 AM

NORTHERN IRELAND,might find itself in a position where uk health workers leave to work in rep of ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:48 AM

who knows, the next idea could be to retrain them as lorry drivers, or perhaps like norman tebbits dad ,they will have to get on a bike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 03:33 AM

So the UK haS a shortage of healthcare workers, SO THE GOVERNMENT SAYS ALL WORKERS MUST BE VACCINATED BY APRIL FIRST.Is this the smartest way to overcome a shortage of workers, would it not be more clever to increase the pay of vaccinated health workers.
i understood there were 135 thousand unvaccinated health care workers, if they all leave or if the majority leave, there will be an increased shortage of health workers, the situation is further exacerbated by the uk no longer being in europe, and preasumably not able to draw on vqccinated european potential workers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 01:14 PM

Jess Phillip's speech on the Standards debate is well worth hearing, though I suspect it not be one of the parts highlighted in the press. If you get a change to hear it, I would seek it out (around 18:05 in a recording.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 11:39 AM

I think we both agree the Tories will probably win just because of how safe a seat it is.

But let's imagine Labour won. The effect on Johnson's majority is marginal. There have been no votes this session where a change of one 'yes' to a 'no' would have mattered.

I would say it is more beneficial to Labour and the country as a whole to use the bye-election to keep the focus on sleaze for the period of the bye-election, or at least to revive it the day or two before.

All other candidates will have to explain Labour policy, or Lib Dem, or Green or whatever. An anti-sleaze candidate can keep the focus on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 11:32 AM

When Martin Bell stood against Neil Hamilton it was in a general election, not a by-election. The turnout will likely be low, favouring the Tory. In addition, Bell stood against the sleazeball Hamilton. In this by-election, Paterson isn't standing. Nice idea, but overwhelmingly likely to be a damp squib and another chance for Johnson to do his sword of truth bit. So I'm with Labour on this. Just an ordinary by-election will do. The Tories will almost certainly win anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 10:50 AM

There has been talk of an independent standing as the sole opposition in Paterson's bye-election, but Labour has said they will not stand aside. Probably whoever the Tories pick will win anyway, but I think that approach ensures it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 11:57 AM

Water on the brain, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 10:53 AM

Patterson has now resigned. Showed the Tories up for the corrupt crew they are though.

Boris is at it again too. What a knob!


We now have a prime minister who thinks melting ice caps provide ‘opportunities’ – just let that sink in

Where to start on that one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 10:41 AM

Rain Dog - Satan...???

.. the tories must surely by now have made enough human sacrifices to please their master...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:26 AM

Owen Paterson: Government U-turn over MPs' conduct plan

Yet another example of the shambolic behaviour of this government.

Who is giving them advice?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:19 AM

Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 09:02 AM

Is there evidence that the cyber attack was not orchestrated by tory backers to distract attention away from the tory party letting Owen Patterson of the hook for corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 04:17 AM

yes, i left the party sometime ago, too

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 03:31 AM

My point being that I have not been a party member for over a year. Why are they holding on to my details? Maybe I should sue :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:54 PM

Me too. Obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:25 PM

DAVE I received the same E MAIL

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 03:39 PM

A lot third parties in that notification. Reads like a marx brothers routine.

A sign of the times. So many fuckers trying to steal data nowadays. Sign of the times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 03:18 PM

They're all bound to blame it on Corbyn stealing data for his commie handlers in the Kremlin...


.. it's not as if Israel or America would do anything as dodgy as this...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 02:51 PM

The Labour party has had a data breach. Now, bear in mind that I resigned from the party when Sir Keith sacked Becky Long-Bailey back in June last year you may be surprised to hear that I just got this.

Wednesday 3 November 2021
Dear Sir / Madam,
We are writing to you to let you know that a third party that handles data on our behalf has been subject to a cyber incident. While the Party’s investigation remains ongoing, we wanted to make you aware of this incident and the measures which we have taken in response. We have also provided details of precautionary steps you may consider taking to help protect yourself.
What happened?
On 29 October 2021, we were informed of the cyber incident by the third party. The third party told us that the incident had resulted in a significant quantity of Party data being rendered inaccessible on their systems. As soon as the Party was notified of these matters, we engaged third-party experts and the incident was immediately reported to the relevant authorities, including the National Crime Agency (NCA), National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) and the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). The Party continues to work closely with each of these authorities. The Party is also working closely and on an urgent basis with the third party in order to understand the full nature, circumstances and impact of the incident. The Party’s own data systems were unaffected by this incident.
What information was involved?
We understand that the data includes information provided to the Party by its members, registered and affiliated supporters, and other individuals who have provided their information to the Party. The full scope and impact of the incident is being urgently investigated.


Shower of shits. Tory mismanagement seems to rubbing off on everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 10:32 AM

nigel farges brexit party made an electoral pact with the conservatives, to not stand in certain seats, but to stand in others where they took votes from the labour party Thurrock was an example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 08:51 AM

Meat carcasses sent to EU for butchering amid UK worker shortage

Great Britain’s beef producers export to Ireland before reimporting, while pork processors consider the Netherlands

The Guardian

"Meat processors in Great Britain are having to export carcasses destined for domestic consumption to the EU for butchering because of the shortage of skilled workers in the industry.

Beef producers are exporting carcasses to Ireland for butchering and packing, says Nick Allen, the chief executive of the British Meat Processors Association, before the products are brought back to Great Britain to be sold in supermarkets.

Meanwhile, pork processors are looking into shipping pig carcasses to the Netherlands to be butchered, as first reported by the Financial Times. This is despite the government announcing a post-Brexit immigration policy U-turn last month that would temporarily extend the seasonal worker visa scheme to include pork butchers.

The move was aimed at preventing a widespread cull of healthy pigs on farms because of a lack of capacity at abattoirs and meat processing plants. However, 10,000 of the animals have been killed so far, according to the National Pig Association, and the cull continues."

So hopefully i should be getting my pigs in blankets this christmas, even if they are likely to be more expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 06:08 AM

Just read that a pharmacy in my old home town of Swinton is doing private (read paid) consultations for minor ailments. I don't know if this is widespread or not but as they are supposed to do these things on the NHS for free, I am gobsmacked! It is sickening. Well, it would be if people could afford to be sick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:54 AM

Well.. the tories used to cherry pick the most naturally intelligent working class kids for Grammar School gentrification..

Then educate, and indoctrinate them to aspire to establishment middle class career and lifestyle.

So they become useful fodder for the middle management jobs public school kids were too superior and important to waste their lives doing..

But more importantly, to divert brighter working class kids from becoming evil class warfare commie revolutionaries...

Nowadays tories seem to have dropped that strategy, and just give universally shite education to all pleb kids..

The tories must have developed new cheaper methods for containing and preventing mass working class radical politicisation...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:36 AM

Nigel Farage’s Brexit party saved Labour seats in 2019 election, analysis finds

Experts say while party failed to win a seat they may have denied Boris Johnson a landslide by splitting vote

The Guardian

"Nigel Farage’s Brexit party may have saved up to 25 Labour seats in the Midlands and the north at the 2019 general election, denying Boris Johnson a landslide majority of 130, according to new analysis.

Farage’s party failed to win a single seat in December 2019 as Boris Johnson sought to hammer home the message that the Conservatives would “get Brexit done”.

But elections experts John Curtice, Stephen Fisher and Patrick English say that by attracting Leave-supporting former Labour voters who might otherwise have backed the Conservatives, Farage may have significantly cut the scale of Labour’s defeat.

By modelling the behaviour of Labour Leavers elsewhere, they suggest that in the absence of a Brexit party candidate, 70% would likely have turned to the Tories and 30% stuck with Labour. Meanwhile, Conservative voters who switched to Farage’s party were likely to have voted for Johnson."

Things might have been worse. Unfortunately Labour are unlikely to have Farage's help in the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 05:03 AM

The NHS is a good idea, if your population is in good health it is likely to work better, one of the benificiaries of the NHS has been the Pharmaceutical industry.
if only the very wealthy are in good health, the country is not going to get the best use of the best brains, has the run down of the NHS over the years contributed to poor political decision making, eg Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 04:00 AM

It would help considerably if they treated the NHS as a national treasure rather than trying to break it up to line their pockets. Right from the outset the Tories were opposed to the NHS. As I said earlier they are the party of profit over people. Until they stop selling it off, they will never find enough people. You're an accountant, Bonzo, would you invest in an organisation that is being asset stripped by its owners?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 06:26 PM

They've got to find 6000 people who want to be GPs first, same as any government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 01:22 PM

No 10 set to break promise of 6,000 more GPs in England, Sajid Javid says

Health secretary admits target unlikely to be met owing to numbers of doctors retiring early

The Guardian

"No 10 is likely to break its promise to increase the number of GPs in England by 6,000, Sajid Javid has admitted. The health secretary disclosed that the figure, a key promise in the Conservatives’ general election manifesto in 2019, was unlikely to be met given the number of GPs retiring early.

He made the disclosure while giving evidence to the cross-party Commons health select committee. Asked by the committee chair, Jeremy Hunt, if the government was on track to implement the 6,000 pledge, Javid relied: “No. I’m not going to pretend that we’re on track when we are clearly not.”"

We tend to get more truthful responses during these committee meetings. More sensible and adult behaviour than is normally the case in the house of commons 'debates'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 11:29 AM

I was potentially interested until I found out it was a 5 episode series..

Five long bloody hours...!!!

Life's too short...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 08:14 AM

Not seen it but it is on the list!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 07:09 AM

So, has anyone been watching

Blair & Brown: The New Labour Revolution

I did post about it on the 18.10.21

I found it an interesting look at the problems of governing the country. "Events overtaking the agenda" as one of the contibutors said last night.

Well worth a watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Nov 21 - 01:16 PM

Full Fact on sewage in the rivers and sea. Bit more murky than we all might have thought.

Murky claims about sewage bill fact checked

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:56 PM

And I agree with Dave - Facebook and it’s problems are a far wider issue than British politics, and really should be discussed in a separate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:54 PM

”Backwoodsman....Mudcat Rules You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.
may i remind you not everyone has access to the washington post”

Coming, as it does, from someone whose postings frequently and copiously display all of those unpleasant attributes, I’m not interested in that kind of nonsense. You are absolutely the last person who should be preaching ‘Mudcat Rules’ at anyone here -Physician Heal Thyself

There was nothing offensive in my post, it was a perfectly straightforward piece of information delivered in a perfectly civil manner. I suggest you desist from your constant trolling and flaming, it’s childish and it makes you look foolish..

Regarding your comment about TWP, you have the same access to TWP as I do - it’s easily available by simply using your internet browser and doing a search - exactly as I did. But the Facebook whistleblower has been widely discussed in the press and on TV and radio - TWP is simply one source of information, but there are plenty of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM

The mòds here do indeed do a decent job, Steve, but there are still a lot of insults and hate posts left on even after some of the perpetrators were eventually removed. There is also a lot of misinformation that goes unchecked.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that it does happen on sites other than Faceache. Yes, it should be sorted there and the sooner they do it the better. Sadly though, a lot of the baby will go down the plughole with the bathwater in the process and some of the censorship will inadvertently damage the good bits too.

I still say that a discussion on a global phenomenon should be outside the UK politics thread as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

Backwoodsman....Mudcat Rules You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.
may i remind you not everyone has access to the washington post