BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 01:39 PM

no.
he is not, he is saying that he votes labour despite the differing policies of corbyn and starmer, he votes labour regardlessof differing policies he voted labour despite his reservations about corbyn, he votes labour regardless of starmers leadership
he probably supported blair whose policies were apart from northern ireland...conservative policies, the man[blair.]who supported the bombing of iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM

DMcG, I am intrigued by your post.

"the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation". Well yes (if we discount, for example, adjuvant and neoadjuvant trials). The purpose of a trial is to discover if a drug is (1) safe and (2) more effective than anything else currently on the market for that particular condition.

"You ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility". I don't think so. I think you are saying that "incompatibilities" - side effects? - are "ultimately" discovered at the micro - or individual - level? My experience is that adverse events are examined at a macro - or large dataset (not necessarily so-called big data) level, where the confidence intervals and statistical powers can be calculated and hypotheses tested (not by physicians, but by statisticians and/or epidemiologists - most physicians of my acquaintance delight in saying how frightened they are of statistics). These data are collected from anonymised GP records, hospital data or (in the case of, e.g., the US) medical insurance information. As a freelancer, every contract I have signed with a pharma client in the past twenty years has included an agreement to report - immediately - any adverse event occurring to someone taking one of their drugs (be it someone at a party telling me about their uncle, or even hearing an item on a radio programme) - information that is added to these data above. Also, I'm not sure that, even if you sign yourself out of GPDR, data concerning you that has been anonymised will be excluded from datasets created for the purpose of pharmacovigilance. If these data cannot be linked to you then they might not be considered personal data.

"Detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir". Drugs are mostly developed in the commercial sector, so unsurprisingly their long-term effects are also calculated almost entirely in the commercial sector, although this can be at the behest of the regulatory authorities as statutory requirements. This may not be the best way, but it's how things work at the moment. Universities and hospitals also do this kind of research, sometimes in partnership with pharma companies. There are plenty of statistical methods to detect interactions, relationships, correlations, clusters, etc., so I'm not sure why you mention Palantir. I'd never heard of it, but a quick search on t'inter tells me that it's a proprietary bit of software, and I can't see anything in their website blurb that I've not seen elsewhere - significantly, it says that it is being used by 'a' (i.e., one) top pharma company. I would put money on this meaning that their sales team have managed to get under the guard of one company and has given them a trial licence, possibly free of charge with a lot of analytical support, to try and get a toe-hold into an industry that already has plenty of tools for this purpose.

I'm not saying that you're wrong: I would be sincerely (and professionally) in your debt if you would bung down something that confirms what you say and corrects my misapprehensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

Nigel - thanks for putting us straight on everything again..

I don't know what us confused simple minded lefties would do
without your absolutely authorative astute political truths and guidance...

I wish I had a friend like you to accompany me to elections
to stop me from habitually being silly voting for Labour.

You make it so obvious I should vote conservative.
But it just doesn't sink in.
Then I get all discombobulated inthe heat of the moment,
and vote labour again.. doh...!!!!!

You're doing a magnificent noble job, but here's no helping us, is there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 12:00 PM

Backwoodsman:
Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

Please don't deliberately misquote me just in order to continue your rant. I did not say "the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party"
What I said was: It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.
The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.

Through the tabloids the right may have some influence, but no control, of the Labour Party's election process. The Labour Party elected Corbyn as leader, the Labour Party replaced him as leader.
The Labour Party is so riven by internal factions that I doubt there is much agreement about which was the better idea, election or replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 06:16 AM

The backstabbing, etc., of Corbyn was predicated on a pack of lies about him. Criticism of Starmer (call it backstabbing if you must) is far more to do with his lack of charisma and inability to oppose the policies of the Tories. He's behind the curve at every juncture. The Tories have done so many disastrously wrong things, and killed tens of thousands of people thereby, in the last fifteen months, yet you'd still hardly think that we have an opposition at all. It isn't backstabbing to express frustration at this. A good, alert, aggressive Labour leader would have made mincemeat of Johnson months ago. I seriously want Starmer to do well, and wanting to give him a good kick up the 'arris, and saying it out loud, is not undermining him in my view. Shutting up about it and thereby permitting a cosy, complacent bunch of establishment New Labour-manqué middle-of-the-roaders to rule the roost is no way forward and will simply give Johnson a free pass next time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM

You’re absolutely correct, Dave, and I believe that any Labour government, no matter who leads it, is preferable to this bunch of Tories who are busy mis-governing the country for their own benefit right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM

He is saying the exact opposite, Dick. He says that a party should be supported for its policies, not the character of its leader. I tend to disagree as the leader has a great role in steering those policies but if I am going to argue with him I will at least try to argue the correct points!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 03:36 AM

Backwoodsman is in effect saying that he supports a party regardless of their policies.its the rhinoceros syndrome

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 21 - 02:03 AM

I think Labour's biggest problem is northern hussies who won't keep their mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:16 PM

Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

That’s all. Nothing more.

I have no intention of getting involved in another discussion with you regarding the current situation within the LP - your intransigence renders such discussions fruitless and pointless. And I deplore the hypocrisy of those who, understandably, protest the undermining and back-stabbing of JC, but who are themselves busy now undermining and back-stabbing the current Leader.

You know my views - that the Party should always be put before Personality, and that LP members and MPs should be focussing on fighting the worst, most damaging, most divisive Tory government in our lifetimes, and achieving success at the next GE, rather than fighting each other. That was my view when JC was the leader - during which leadership I supported him, here and elsewhere, despite doubting his ability to lead the Party in to government (justified, in the event) - and it is still my view.

Despite my doubts, I voted for Corbyn’s version of Labour at the 2019 GE and, despite my doubts, I will vote for Starmer’s version of Labour (assuming he’s still the Leader, not necessarily a given) at the next GE. The people the Labour Party was formed to fight for - the weakest and most down-trodden in our society - and whom far too many Members seem to have forgotten about while they fight their seedy internal ideological battles, deserve nothing less.

That’s it, I’m done here. And, this time, I mean it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 06:57 PM

What you describe was the role of the right-wing tabloids (which is almost all of them), and, as you say, not the only cause of his demise. The other major factor was the role of his right-wing enemy within, the Ruth Smeeths, the John Manns, the Margaret Hodges, to name but a few, who would do and say anything, including throwing an election, to get rid of him and install one of their own. And look where that's got us. Starmer. We'd have been ten times better off leaving Jeremy in place. At least he would have got his teeth into Johnson. Well, unless you've got a better bloody idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 03:31 PM

”The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party”

Except insofar as, in the case of Corbyn, it was the Right’s bare-faced lies, trumpeted ad nauseam by their Right-Wing press propaganda-machine, about him - ‘Friend of Terrorists’, ‘Hates this country’, ‘Communist’, ‘Anti-Semite’, yadda yadda - which, at least in part, brought about the mass desertion by ‘Red Wall’ Labour voters at the 2019 GE, which caused the worst defeat for Labour in living memory, which in turn resulted in Corbyn’s demise as leader of the Party.

Not the only cause, but certainly not an insignificant element in events leading to Corbyn’s departure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM

I know, Nigel, but I believe this is the only thread permitted by Mudcat. It is not ideal but it may be the closest we are allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:59 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him..

It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.

The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:55 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.

Let's not discuss this as a 'UK' topic. It is related solely to 'NHS England'
I don't expect US members to fully understand the nuances, but UK members should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:46 PM

My immediate thought..

In the immediate context of the Cummings revelations and allegations,

..it seemed just like a soldier hurriedly marrying his sweetheart,
before departing overseas to do battle and probably die in combat..

Who knows if and when the happy couple might ever see each other again...???

Though in Boris's case a more appropriate metaphor,
would be an upper class gent about to be arrested for fraud and manslaughter.
Fearful of a very long spell inside..

Whichever version, the new bride potentially faces an uncertain lonely future.
But at least she's got a wedding ring and the man's name to keep her respectable while she's waiting...


Stories straight from the archives of old classic melodramatic black and white movies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:15 PM

I think the "fuss" was because according to catholic tenets divorcees cannot marry in their churches so it was unusual that Johnson was allowed to remarry in Westminster Cathedral the Mother Church of the Roman Catholic faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

https://leftfootforward.org/2021/06/pms-catholic-wedding-ceremony-triggers-constitutional-questions/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

There seems to be a query about the constitutional position of whether a Catholic is permitted to be Prime Minister, responsible for appointing Anglican bishops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM

I believe there is, Maggie, but it seems to be a religious rather than political controversy. Certainly not exclusive to The UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:09 AM

Is there anything to be read into the recent marriage of Boris Johnson? (And the man apparently doesn't own a comb?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 09:55 AM

Sorry Dick but anyone who puts their heads above the parapet for a living is going to get sniped at. That includes all politicians and anyone in public life. Anyone posting on here is fair game too but there are rules which the moideration team apply pretty evenly. Those who did not recognise the descriptions of Farage, Gove and Johnson (not farage gove johnson BTW) have little business enering this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.

I find myself a bit torn on this one, though I have in the end decided to opt-out. However, the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation: it is simply impractical to consider all the interactions of a specific drug with all the other drugs on the market. You can check the more obvious interactions, but not much more.   To discover these, you ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility. A data set where all the drugs each patient is taken can be assessed and their interactions determined is potentially a life saver, and shows every sign of being a major health benefit.

But all that level of analysis, detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir.

I do not like putting that level of trust in the hands of companies who could easily exploit it.   Promises the data will never be abused, like those on the NHS Digital website would be fine, if there were no criminals anywhere in the world and everyone could be relied on to stay within the law.

So it comes down to how we trade benefit and risk.   As I say, I have decided the risk is too great, but I am not certain of my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM

I just heard that 'step' parent is being phased out for 'bonus' parent.
To which my reaction is: 'meh'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:12 PM

I thought my usual description of nicotine stained man toad was better than haddock face but, yes, I know who you meant.:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 01:32 PM

Using "person who has given birth" might get a bit complicated when someone has what are now called a birth mother and an adoptive mother - "birth person who has given birth" and "adoptive person who didn't give birth", along with "adoptive partner of person who didn't give birth"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 01:22 PM

.. and yet another highly successful distraction attack, wasting our time and attention..

A petty pedantic row about haddock faces / etc, diverting focus away from real criticism
of this deplorble govt and their corrupt cabal..

Well done haddock face, viper, and gummidge fanboys...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

You’re right of course, Steve, and point taken here. Hopefully, it will be taken by others too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

it would have been easier to understand if you had said farage gove johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM

Whilst there have been a few (what appear to me me to be) peculiar decisions, some of which I've been on the sharp end of, I've said it before and I'll say it again: don't berate the moderators over their efforts in tidying up threads. One vexatious post can generate a labyrinthine tidying-up job if there are multiple replies to it and keeping a thread looking sensible under such circumstances is tough. So let's agree to knock off the criticism and be a bit more, er, stoical about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM

I’m confident that the person I was responding directly to - Dave the Gnome - understood precisely whom I was referring to. And anyone who didn’t know was perfectly at liberty to ask for clarification, and I would happily have explained. However, personal criticism seldom achieves a satisfactory outcome. Hopefully a lesson learned...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM

So now the woke organisations are dispensing with the word “mother” and replacing it with “parent who has given birth”? Really? My parent who gave birth is now up in Heaven along with my parent who did not give birth.

Winkie wankie wokies again!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:26 PM

The problem for me was that I have never looked a haddock in the face, so the comparison didn't work.
I know who looks like a scarecrow and I know which politician came from Scotland, but I assumed the haddock must be Cummings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:17 PM

i did not recognise who you were describing other than johnson, either, i thought haddock face was patel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 12:08 PM

I’m sure it disappeared briefly, then reappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM

Unless I have missed something, your reply seems to be there at 9:04 AM.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:45 AM

It’s extremely frustrating when a post criticising me personally is permitted by the Mods to remain, yet my perfectly civil response is removed. Would it be too much to ask for the Mods to show some common sense and consistency please and, if they are going to remove a response to a post, also remove the post that gave rise to it.

It’s not rocket-science.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM

You're kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 10:45 AM

Shut your mouths and eat humble pie remoaners..

The future of brexit Britain is brilliant..

We have now successfully accomplished a major trade deal with Liechtenstein...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 10:38 AM

Correct, SPB-C. Doesn’t take a degree in Astro-physics to work them out, does it? Just a bit of imagination and a sense of humour - apparently sadly lacking in some forum contributors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 09:22 AM

I assume they are faridge, gove and johnson though I do think it is defamatory comparing that wonderful childrens' tv character with that overbloated self-serving liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 09:04 AM

And I wish you’d mind your own business Doug. You’re not a Mod, you have no authority around here so, in the interests of keeping the peace, and keeping this thread open, perhaps it would be best if you keep your ‘advice’ to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM

Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit

BWM,
I wish you would use names instead of insults. I have a hard enough time following arguments in this mish-mash of a thread, which lumps together so many diverse topics, without having to solve cryptic clues.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:28 AM

What future?????

To be hones the only point of living is just to tick days off on life's calendar, and each day passing being one day left to live.

Let's be honest, we are living in a state that is resembling nazism more and more day by day, even to the state that fascists employed by the home office willingly obey orders in deciding whether people in relationships from different countries should be prevented from diluting the purity of British blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

They may well know that it’s true, Dave, but they’ll never admit it. To do so would be to admit they were fools, bamboozled by the lies and bullshit of Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit - it ain’t gonna happen, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 05:39 AM

Very good piece in Yorkshire Bylines

I doubt if even our rabid right supporters will find much to disagree with the opening paragraph

Whether you supported Brexit or not, there’s no doubt that there has been a cost for all of us. Brexit has been the thief in the night that has stolen our vision of the future. For those in favour of close ties with the EU, that relationship has been soured, and our rights diminished. For those that looked forward to a brighter new day, outside of the EU, the view ahead is not quite what was expected, or promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 09:21 AM

Patel and Netanyahu breeding?? The thought of it would put me off my dinner for the rest of my life!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 04:19 PM

Quite so, Dave. None are so blind as they who will only see what their Tory propaganda machine tells them they must see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM

Spot on BWM but we will hear no condemnation from our resident BoJo supporters. Nor will we hear any from the main stream meadia. He is not Jeremy Corbyn!