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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Stilly River Sage 20 Nov 22 - 09:50 AM
Rain Dog 17 Nov 22 - 05:24 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 22 - 03:10 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Nov 22 - 01:54 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Nov 22 - 01:49 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 22 - 12:11 PM
Rain Dog 17 Nov 22 - 05:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 22 - 04:01 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Nov 22 - 02:14 PM
SPB-Cooperator 15 Nov 22 - 03:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 22 - 02:38 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 01:36 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 01:21 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 22 - 12:54 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 12:31 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Nov 22 - 11:20 AM
Raggytash 15 Nov 22 - 11:16 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 22 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 22 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 22 - 09:15 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 Nov 22 - 09:12 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 22 - 05:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 13 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM
DMcG 12 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 22 - 12:28 PM
DMcG 12 Nov 22 - 05:39 AM
Rain Dog 12 Nov 22 - 05:26 AM
peteglasgow 12 Nov 22 - 05:14 AM
Rain Dog 12 Nov 22 - 04:23 AM
peteglasgow 12 Nov 22 - 03:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 22 - 03:51 AM
Rain Dog 12 Nov 22 - 03:48 AM
Rain Dog 12 Nov 22 - 03:22 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 22 - 07:54 PM
Senoufou 11 Nov 22 - 05:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 22 - 08:26 AM
Senoufou 10 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Nov 22 - 04:32 AM
Senoufou 10 Nov 22 - 04:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 22 - 12:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 22 - 09:44 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Nov 22 - 07:49 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 22 - 07:32 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Nov 22 - 07:02 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 09:50 AM

Here is the new Brexit & other UK political topics thread. This iteration is closed but the discussion continues on the new thread to save loading this long one from Mudcat's server.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:24 PM

"Electric car owners to pay road tax from 2025, Jeremy Hunt announces."

Need to check your attics for any scalextric cars you still have. Probably best to sell them before they become liable to tax.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 03:10 PM

The freeze on tax thresholds is nothing short of criminal. In times of high inflation and a cost of surviving crisis, that simply drags people at the very bottom of the earnings scale into paying tax. Toryism writ bloody large.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 01:54 PM

…also not mentioned in *unt’s speech was the fact that the tax surcharge on banks’ profits will be cut from 8% to 3% next year.

Old Osborne’s “We’re all in it together” sounds hollower and hollower, dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 01:49 PM

No mention, in *unt’s ‘Autumn Statement’ today, of the 23% increase in vehicle fuel duty which is to come into effect next March. 12p per litre on petrol and diesel. So the poorest in society will be hit again, and getting to those minimum-wage jobs will be even more expensive.

What was that joke about ‘Caring Conservatives’?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 12:11 PM

A comment from a Guardian below-the-line on the *unt statement:

"(The) problem is that Reeves and Starmer are the wooden cheeks of the same policy-less arse - Tory shit peddler he may be, but Hunt, sad to say, is no worse than the dross on the opposite bench"

I couldn't agree more (and I'm still a party member...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:03 AM

Only a couple of hours to wait until we find out. Then we will have speculation about if all of it will be passed as intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 04:01 AM

Any guesses for what the autumn statement will hold?

One report is that the 45% tax limit will be lowered and the windfall tax on power companies will be increased. That would be good if true but I suspect most money will be saved by screwing over benefits claims and the NHS yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 02:14 PM

Bonzo is BONK!O for a while, to see if that gets his attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 03:41 PM

Bonzo, please cut the racist crap. If you are going to use terms like invade, then people coming to UK to seek asylum should at least be issued with firearms so they can invade properly. Your language is totally contemptuous. Consider yourself lucky you have never lived in a country that has been invaded. My partner is Czech; her mother lived through the German in 1939, and she was 4 years old in 1968 when Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Soviet Union. If you had lived in mainland Europe during WW2, you might have at least learned a bit of humility. Even better, just stop posting. Nobody will miss you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 02:38 PM

So you don't know how many people have avoided the correct procedures then, Bonzo. You and your mentors in the right wing press can only guess yet based on this guess you demonise all migrants to this country. My Dad was a migrant in 1945. Perhaps I should go back to Poland as I do not fit in with your idea of true Brits. Who will be your scapegoats when you have sent us all back? Jews? Gays? The disabled?

And, yes, I would support the rights of people wishing to travel to Qater regardless of their race, religion or sexual orientation. Although why anyone would want to go there is beyond me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:36 PM

Correct Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Her mum and dad actually named her after Sue-Ellen Ewing in Dallas. She was another sad case if I remember rightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:34 PM

Illegal only in the minds of those thick enough to fall for dog-whistles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:21 PM

Sue-Ellen Braverman


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

‘Sweller’? Aaaaahh, you mean Sue-Ellen Cassiana Braverman, that woman who changed her real name from Sue-Ellen in order to avoid comparisons with ‘Dallas’!

‘Cruella’ is far more appropriate, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:54 PM

Spot on, John. And Bonzo, I'd love to hear Sweller talking about "illegals invading the south coast." Even Fishy would sack her for that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 12:31 PM

Amnesty International article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:20 AM

It is not ‘illegal’ to cross the channel by any means, including by inflatable boat, nor is it ‘illegal’ to land on a beach. It only becomes illegal if those landing on the beach attempt to evade notifying the immigration authorities of their arrival.

‘Illegal Immigrants’ is an extreme right-wing dog-whistle term, deliberately designed and used to get the simpletons and those who are hard of thinking foaming at the mouth. It obviously works, judging by recent posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 11:16 AM

"How should I know - totally irrelevant."

Au contaire Bonzo, some people like yourself rant on about "illegal immigrants" at length and with a great degree of vitriol. However you do not know if you are ranting about two, two hundred, two thousand or two million.

Before you start ranting again I would make suggest that you make a serious effort to get your facts before you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 10:34 AM

How should I know - totally irrelevant.

They are commonly known as illegals, if you don't like it tough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:30 AM

Simple question for you, Bonzo. If they did not arrive through the "normal customs and immigration process", how do you know how many are here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:15 AM

Their method of entry may be illegal but there is no such thing as an illegal human being. And do speak for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 22 - 09:12 AM

Rubbish, their method of entry is illegal because they do not arrive through normal customs and immigration process, nothing more nothing less, and we do not want them here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 05:18 PM

Sweller Braverman referred this morning to stopping illegal immigrants coming from France. Well they're not immigrants unless they actually get here first, Sweller. And if you stop them, they're not "illegal" either (they're not anyway, as a person can't be "illegal"). My word. Not only is she the spawn of the devil, she's bloody illiterate too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 22 - 01:17 PM

What puzzles me is how do they know how many illegal immigrants there are if they entered to country illegally? It's almost as if the Daily Mail make these things up...

As to demonising them, I will quote Woody Guthrie

"You won't have a name when you ride the big aeroplane
All they will call you will be deportee"

Nothing much has changed in 74 years has it :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM

The French Interior Ministry has confirmed that a joint declaration between the UK and France will be signed tomorrow in Paris to deal with the migrant crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

Agreed, Steve, but I am talking about flexibility during the recruitment process itself, not just once you have the complement of staff. It is things like allowing multiple part time staff rather than a full time job.

Of course, things like living in an urban, suburban or rural area affects the number of applicants as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 12:28 PM

If you have your full complement of GPs, etc., working around it is far more feasible than if you haven't. Getting your heads together and deciding to be flexible is a great ploy when you are looking over your shoulder and realising that most practices haven't got your good fortune. Having flexibility forced on you when you have been trying and failing to recruit a GP for months, and/or when exhausted practice nurses contribute to a high turnover in which new staff (if you can get them) are raw and unused to the ways of the practice, results in the danger of exhaustion and disillusionment. There's a big difference between negotiating flexible working practices in a well-staffed setup than trying to do it when staff are missing, or coming and going, or when some may have to have been selected from a lean field.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:39 AM

Thinking about this as the difference between agency work and direct employment is a bit of a distortion.

I am a member of my local GP practice's Patient-Provider Group, which is essentially a regular conversation about what we need as patients and what they do as a surgery.

My practice (and the wider consortium) is fully staffed in terms of doctors, nurses, mental health support, admin staff and so on. This is unusual but is largely because they have a policy of "we can work around that."

You need to be away during the day to collect your child from school? We can work around that.

You have a role with the General Medical Council that requires you to attend hearings in Central London but there is no regular pattern for these? We can work around that.

You want to develop an existing speciality, either within the practice or on secondment to, say, the local hospital? We can work around that.

I want to be able to work extra hours much of the time, but can't commit to always being able to? We can work around that.

The result of all of that is that providing an applicant is suitable for other reasons, they can be offered the job. The hours they can work are almost never a deciding factor.

That takes effort, and management, and brings some additional costs because of that. But it gets the staffing where it need be. There is no fundamental reason why other parts of the NHS could not have the same flexibility. It does not need an agency to provide that. What is does need is the willingness of the NHS management to support it.

The fees the agencies get for providing nurses are extremely high - and don't think the nurses get much beyond the NHS equivalent. The bulk goes into the agency's profits.

The biggest single thing that agency nurses get - according to my nephew's wife, who is a nurse - is a reduction in the pressure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:26 AM

National Audit Office report from 2006

Improving the use of temporary nursing staff in NHS acute and foundation trusts

Makes for interesting reading.

One of these days this country might have a sensible debate about the type of health service we want and the price we are prepared to pay for it. I will not be holding my breath though.

I was not aware of NHS Professionals

From their website:

"We run the largest NHS flexible staff bank, placing highly skilled temporary workers in NHS Trusts to meet their short, medium and long-term needs. Uniquely we are owned by the Department of Health and Social Care and we therefore reinvest any surplus we make directly back into the wider healthcare economy.

Originally formed in 2001, we now have more than 50 client Trusts and over 180,000 healthcare  professionals (Bank Members) registered with us. They work flexibly to NHS-assured standards in a wide range of roles including nurses and midwives, doctors, allied health professionals, healthcare scientists, personal social services and non-clinical."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 05:14 AM

it's a sign of how far we have fallen as a country (countries) that we have allowed our NHS treasure to fall into such disrepair. a service providing a good, prompt and caring service should be the starting point not a distant goal. staff should really have a valued and stable job, flexible when needed and properly rewarded. Private providers are just feeding off the deficiencies in the service and enriching the already rich and corrupt. In many ways, outsourcing has become normal in our public services and permitted to prosper in our free-market world. All driven by vicious, feckless politicians whose main aim is to shrink the state and further enrich the wealthy.

it isn't normal or necessary, maybe we just forget what a centre ground of politics could be. To see the relative prosperity and decency of our european neighbours is a sad reminder of what we have lost. it's what brexit was all about in the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 04:23 AM

Dave.

I doubt that there are many staff who complete their training and then sign up for agency work right away. Peoples lives change. They start a family etc and want to work more flexible hours. I think we can all agree that it would be a shame and a huge waste of money if these people left medical/health work for good.

Like I said, I saw how hard staff worked on busy A&E departments during 12 hour shifts. Week after week of that sort of work must be hard.to cope with. I would find it hard to tell those people that they should not be able to do agency work if they so wished.

There are no easy solutions. There is certainly no quick solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:54 AM

i was in hospital for a small procedure a few years ago. the senior nurse I saw was telling me that she and 2 colleagues had had their shifts for the weekend cancelled at the last minute. This happens regularly so they would travel to Newcastle and make more money doing agency shifts there. In Newcastle exactly the same was happening and 3 nurses were travelling to Cumbria. Obvious madness . We agreed that the only possible reason would be to undermine the NHS and cause chaos and confusion. Cynical tactics by the government.

Possible solution. Anyone trained by the NHS should have to work , say, 35 hours a week within the NHS. Any further work could be on overtime.

Any services provided by agency workers could be done by agency trained staff.

Of course if NHS staff had better pay and conditions then there would be fewer vacancies in the service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:51 AM

Rain Dog, The main point I take away is not that agency staff are used but that staff are trained by the NHS, at taxpayers expense, and then leave to take more lucrative positions before the benefit to the NHS is realised. Maybe putting a clause in any training package that you must work for the people that train you for a certain period would work? In business it is called return on investment


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:48 AM

I got the dates wrong. It was between 2016 & 2018 that I spent more time than I wanted in A&E departments & general wards. I got to see a lot in my position of visitor/helper rather than a patient.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 03:22 AM

So what is your alternative solution. Leave the hospitals short staffed so that the remaining staff are run ragged?

The NHS have been employing agency staff for years. I would rather that they did not have to do that. Some staff prefer to work that way.

There are not many easy solutions. There are no quick solutions.

Between 2014 and 2016 I spent a fair amount of time in A & E departments accompanying my mother on a number of ambulance visits, so much so I thought I might get an invite to the staff xmas party. One rare quite night while waiting for hospital transport back home for my mother, i got chatting with a nurse. I said the 12 hour shifts must be hard. She said they were and tbat is why she was agency. Work a few months then take a few weeks off before returning. Quite understandable.

Of course it is probably easier for agency staff to fit in on A & E rather than a ward of longer staying patients.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 07:54 PM

A report on the telly tonight about agency doctors and nurses (in other words, from the private sector) having to be hired by the NHS in desperation because there are simply not anywhere near enough NHS staff to keep our hospitals running. These workers don't fit in very well, quite understandably. Why not? Because the dedicated NHS regulars see these people being helicoptered in earning two or three times per day what they themselves earn. One cancer doctor - a cancer doctor, fer chrissake, when cancer waiting times are dangerously ballooning - told of an offer of £130 per hour for his services...

Well we taxpayers pay for these agency workers, and the agencies get paid even more on top. We taxpayers pay for the training hospitals where these agency workers were trained, and we taxpayers pay for their training. This is costing the taxpayer billions every year. It's a bloody scandal, and next time you hear a Tory saying that they "invest more than ever in the NHS", just think about where that "investment money" is actually going. The lying bastards...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Nov 22 - 05:13 AM

That's so helpful and kind of you Dave, but my dear sister has just come to the rescue with some financial help. I'll pay her back when the Winter Fuel Payment arrives in my bank account.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 08:26 AM

Citizens advice has a good page for anyone struggling with energy costs at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/get-
help-paying-your-bills/grants-and-benefits-to-help-you-pay-your-
energy-bills/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM

I voted for Them too, much to my shame. I shan't vote for Them again however. They don't care a pin for us 'oiks' and are all sitting in luxury homes warm, as toast and drinking champagne (possibly). My Irish mother would have said, "Bad cess to them!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

You voted for them, Bonz, you’ve got what you voted for so Suck It Up, sucker! I’ll bet the likes of the Rees-Moggs and Sunaks aren’t sitting huddled in blankets wondering if they dare turn the heating on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:32 AM

Sorry to hear that, we know what we are getting but haven't received it yet either. I was hoping to pack up work after the next tax return deadline at the end of January, but looks like I'll be carrying on. I think we've had heating on for a total of 2 hours so far!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 22 - 04:24 AM

I'm getting very low on my heating oil, and I just can't afford the price of a top-up. It's not allowed to order fewer than 500 litres, and that would cost around £460, around three times the price a couple of years ago. The Government Winter Fuel Payment hasn't yet arrived in my bank account (what a surprise!) and my letter says, "If you have not received it by January 2023, ring this number :" etc)
January? Are they bonkers? How can us pensioners wait until winter has truly set in? I'm sitting swathed in a blanket, wearing my winter coat. This rise in the cost of living is depressing me. Can't fill up my car, can't afford to put my electric oven on. Can't afford to heat the house. Council Tax has gone up. "I'm a pensioner! Get me out of here!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM

Just think. Cruella with a whip and wearing leathers...

Pin up girl for all those working class masochists who voted for brexit and Bozzer!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 12:32 PM

"Now we have complete idiots sitting on motorways blocking people from going about their daily business. I hope the time is near when motorists begin shunting this scum out of the way."

Hmm. From what I've just read about Suella Braverman's speech to the police, it looks like you're in bed with her, Bonzo.


Ooer, "in bed with Suella Braverman..." The very thought is putting me right off me tea...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 09:44 AM

As they say in Derbyshire. Better to post in Hope than email in Clay Cross. Well, something like that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:49 AM

”I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.”

Not really. I’m certain they will hang on as long as possible - probably until 2024 - in order to keep their wealth-grab alive. Any government that placed value on decency, honesty, and responsibility to the entire population would have called a GE by now, in the face of their disastrous record since 2019, but the Tories’ main interest is in enabling the enrichment of the already-immensely-wealthy, and I’m certain they will hang on to power until the bitter end in order to keep that going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:32 AM

I'd like to think that you're not posting in hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 07:02 AM

Well true enough, Steve, Fishy shouldn’t have appointed that waste of oxygen to the Cabinet in the first place, given that he already knew about the complaints against Williamson. I think we’re continuing to witness the death-throes of a government which is rotten to its core, and which has completely run out of ideas, and people of sufficient calibre to make those ideas work.


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