BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM

cliff edge? More like freefall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM

some of us realised that four years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?

Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.

Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM

That's the one!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.

Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...