BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:08 AM

Reports on BBC News right now of rebel Tory MPs being intimidated/threatened by their party to withdraw their support for a VONC against Johnson. Intimidation allegedly includes threats to withdraw finance/support for projects in the MP’s constituencies.

A lovely lot, aren’t they? NOT,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:34 AM

My opinion (recorded on another site) was that if Johnson did not go on 17-19 because of feedback from the MPs constituents, he is probably safe until the May elections. Gray's report will lead to some more letters going in, but I doubt if it will be enough to be decisive. A lot of financial flak will hit people in April, and I don't think the potential replacements for Johnson want to be on the receiving end of that, so they are happy to wait it out.

I heard one of the government spokesmen saying what people cared about were things like the UK having the fastest GDP growth in it the G7. Stuff and nonsense, in my view. They care about the cost of petrol. The cost of gas and electricity. The price of food. Whether their wages cover the month (or week) without having to make significant choices like food or heating. Abstractions like GDP and whether G7 is more significant than other comparisons are from a different world to their experiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:03 AM

Christian Wakefield:
The Labour Party are welcome to him. His departure seems to have somewhat stifled Conservative action about Boris.

To quote the Manchester Evening News

In September 2020, he presented and backed the Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation) Bill - which was sponsored by Conservative MP Anthony Mangnall.
The bill would enable constituents to recall their MP and call a by-election if they 'voluntarily change their political party affiliation'.

Young Labour said in a Tweet: "The Labour Party must uphold Bury South members’ right to choose their own Labour candidate and constituents should be able to reassess their MP."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

He won’t resign - not only his immensely-wealthy puppeteers, but his own huge ego, won’t allow it - and I can’t imagine for one second that Sue Gray will cross her boss. Tory MPs, in the main, know he’s the only reason they walked away with the 2019, and thus was responsible for them winning or holding their seats, so they won’t push for a VONC in sufficient numbers. I’m sure we’re stuck with him until 2024 at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:13 AM

It seems that in the short term Christian Wakefield could have given Johnson a bit of breathing space. Johnson is clearly determined to dig in and hold his ground. I think the best outcome for Labour would be for Johnson to face a vote of no confidence from the Tories and win it narrowly. It would still be a fatal wound. I don't think that will happen. He's going to grind away and dig in and get away with all this. It's a long time until 2024. Of course, Sue Gray could change all this, but, as he's her boss...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

The better news is that the odious Tommy Robinson may get his comeuppance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 04:01 PM

De nada!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM

Sorry Steve, I hadn’t noticed that you’d already noted the Tory Lackey’s resorting to the ‘Labour Anti-semitism’ nonsense after PMQs. I have to say I’m quite pleased he stooped so low - it’s an indication that they’re running scared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:05 PM

Has anyone else noticed the 'argument by soundbite' tactic that Bozo is employing more and more? I suppose 'Get Brexit Done' won him an election but does he really need to use daft statements like "we delivered while they dithered" and "we vaccinated while they vacillated"? He needs a new scriptwriter!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:44 PM

It’s a lot better than if it had been the other way round, Dave!

I see the Tory cowboys are drawing the wagons into a circle around their beleaguered leader (hopefully soon to be ex-leader), and are loading up their weapons with ‘Anti-Semitic Labour’ bullets - some Tory puppet firing off the first salvo post-PMQs today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:24 PM

Let's give him a whirl, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM

What do we think of Christian Wakeford? A good move for Labour or rats leaving a sinking ship?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM

True, unless they want to stand on the platform that the tory party fielded an anti-semitic candidate in 2019.

I wish that johnson would stop dragging up EMA. As we were part of the EMA up to December 31st 2020, and we were still able to develop our own vaccination programme under EU regulations when will the speaker apoligise to the people of the UK for allowing johnson to lie to the UK population week in week out? Or is it a simple case that the three-quarters of a million first vaccinations reported by the NHS in December 2020 were a lie, and anyone who says they were vaccinate din that time are liars?

If, in the future, being outside the EMA this means that it will be easier for pharmaceutical companies to get medicines onto chemist shelves quicker, which shortcuts in medicine standards approval. I suppose, for example, another tragedy such as thalidomide is a price worth paying if tory donors can get rich quicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:08 AM

I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card

Yes, that struck me as well. If that is how they intend to fight for Bury, I don't think it will work this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:56 AM

Watching PMQs this lunch-time, I do have to wonder if members of the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and those who voted Tory in the 2019 GE, have begun to understand the innate truth of the old adage, ‘When you elect a clown, you end up with a circus’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM

Just watched PMQs and I'm wondering whether David Davis is the new Geoffrey Howe...

Another lethal blow was the defection of the Bury South MP to Labour. That's my original home constituency. I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card. Nasty piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:40 AM

"Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows..."

Exactly. It is highly likely that will elect a tory to lead their party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:21 AM

Just reading a 2009 paper co-authored by Liz Truss.
There are just some of the section heading from Chapter 5:
Work, Pensions and Health – cutting programmes and entitlements
* Restructure pensions
* Abolish mandatory retirement age of 65
* Remove gimmicky pension add-ons (things like winter fuel allowance)
* Simplify out of work benefits
* Target child benefit
Health
* Cut capital programme
* End public health campaigns
* Introduce user charges for GPs
Just so you know what you have to look forward to if she becomes Johnson's replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

I left out a thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

Me too, but you wouldn't know it... ;-)

Looks like the Tories are doing the only that the Tories do best - getting out the long knives and closing in on their leader. Remember the fall of Maggie Thatcher, largely brought about by quiet remarks from Geoffrey Howe (of whom it had previously been said by Denis Healey, somewhat mistakenly, that debating with him was like being savaged by a dead sheep). Is there a Sir Geoffrey in the house?

Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows...Truss...Sunak...Gove... Maybe the modest Jeremy Hunt (slightly unfairly said by some to be the Cockney rhyming slang of what they regard as his more appropriate name, unfortunately exposed by Jim Naughtie's amusing slip of the tongue) will turn out to be the new John Major... Any bets?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:59 AM

I will just largely agree with recent posts. Since 1688 and the arrival of William of Orange, virtually all political significant power has gone from the Royals: what is left is influence, in the main. For me, they fall firmly on the circus side of the 'bread and circuses' tag. Because they have a symbolic role, they do occasionally interact with real politics - Edward and Wallis for example - but 99% they are as relevant as whatever the current popular TV soap opera is.

I am a 'neutral' on the question of retention of the Royals. I think some sort of symbolic head of the country is needed, but whether it is a monarch or an elected role doesn't worry me greatly. (Given some of the horrors we have elected to important roles, there may be an advantage to a monarchy in that any disasters in the role are not the fault of the people.)

So when I want to talk about politics I am only concerned with elected officials, people they appoint without elections and how the decisions they take affect us. Together, of course, with those seeking election, seeking those roles etc. Not Royalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:15 AM

The idea that you'd base your method of gvt on how tourists would view it always amuses me. Anyway as Steve says the tourist angle is much overplayed. According to Visit Scotland the only tourist attraction in the top 20 visited attractions which has anything to do with the modern royalty is the Royal Yacht Britannia and that is only at #20 and in truth its presence or not is unlikely to make any significant impact to overall tourist numbers in Edinburgh. There are much bigger attractions in the city. I was kind of surprised Holyrood Palace wasn't in the top 20 but again I think its association with the modern monarchy isn't the main factor in its pull anyway. It is the history of the place that attracts people on the whole. Versailles is still a huge pull in France even though their monarchy is long gone!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 07:08 PM

"To identify Britain’s 100 Most Popular Tourist Attractions, CEOWORLD magazine reviewed data from the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions (ALVA), one of the UK’s leading tourism organisations."

In their list of 100 (I had to choose a year before the pandemic influenced numbers, which in this case was 2017), the only one with a direct connection to the current royals was Kensington Palace at no 57. You could, I suppose, claim connections for the Tower of London, Hampton Court, etc., though those historical sites would still be attracting tourists had the royals been abolished 200 years ago!

There are other lists, of course, but this at least gives the flavour...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 06:46 PM

Boris Johnson (or his faithful lackeys) is talking of scrapping the BBC licence fee (I won't even try to explain to the yanks what that means, except to say that the 43.5p per day (about 58 cents) licence fee gives us unlimited advertising-free access to the BBC's renowned television and radio output as well as supporting some wonderful symphony and light-music orchestras, the Proms season every year, the superb iPlayer and BBC Sounds catch-up services, and more), of sending gunboats into the Channel to deter refugees from landing on our sceptred (sceptic?) isle and of cancelling all our covid-19 restrictions as early as next week (I might actually agree with that one). He's also making it harder for poorer people to vote and is curtailing the right to peaceful protests that are too noisy or a bit inconvenient to people driving gas-guzzling Chelsea Tractors on our motorways.

All very populist, all very distracting from the terrible self-imposed lockdown-busting mess and tissue of lies he's currently enmeshed in. Nothing is too valuable to be wrecked as long as he can save his own skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 06:12 PM

SRS the monarchy apart from the Queen's residual powers, or perhaps we could better say duties, is not really about politics. It is arguably more to do with celebrity. Like your Kardashians but a bit posher. So yes largely a distraction. Apart from that the important folk (not for me as I am not a royalist) are the direct heirs. Charles - William - George. The political aspect being they are in line to eventually take over the duties of state. The rest is largely celebrity. Harry is no longer a working royal through his own choice. So his situation now is a story of a celeb. Not politics. He can bring his own security team when he visits or hire another if he wants. He feels he needs the official police security and says he's willing to pay. However that is still taking resources away from what they would be doing otherwise! To protect a celebrity couple and their family. I am not sure they would have the sympathy of most Brits. Could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:56 PM

If that was aimed at me, all I'm trying to do, after my rollicking from Jeri, was to get the thread back on topic. The royals' rather disreputable doings are, at best, peripheral to politics in this country. They are, of course, on the other hand, tabloid heaven, which is perhaps what you'd prefer to indulge in. If we are permitted just one politics thread, then I think we have far more important and urgent things to chat about. You could, of course, start a royals thread, which you may get away with because our royals clearly have, arguably, more appeal across the ocean than they do here.

By the way, Maggie, as for attracting tourists, locations relating to our royals seldom make it into our top twenty tourist attractions. It's far more about our long history, our national monuments, cathedrals, ancient cities and the rest, and our culture. The royals' role in attracting tourists is received-wisdom myth. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

You live with a monarchy relic that isn't present here, so it is of interest from this side of the pond. The monarchy is used to attract people to visit the UK like the castle is used to attract visitors to Disneyland. And your politics are frankly so mangled with complications that most of us don't understand how it works. The closest we get to a vote of confidence is our regular elections (which the GOP is trying to tamper with.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:08 PM

"...a convenient distraction..."

Absolutely spot-on. And what Johnson & co. want us to do is emote over the royals' shabby goings-on and stop focussing on the partying. Do understand that, Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:44 PM

SRS, I suspect that many (most?) Americans don’t understand that a significant minority of British people don’t share the American love-affair with our Royal family, and their family-wars are of little consequence to them. Unlike your president, the Queen is not involved in our political system, except as an advisor and confidante to the PM and rubber-stamper of Acts of Parliament.

Personally, even though I marginally prefer the Queen as a benevolent, non-political Head of State over the concept of a US-style President with political power, I’d be happy to see the rule of the Monarchy end with her death or abdication, to be replaced with a Presidency along the lines of the Irish model - a ceremonial position with no involvement in politics.

I certainly have little or no interest in the wider Royal Circus. Harry and Meghan need to lie in the bed they’ve made for themselves AFAIC and, like any other citizen, Andrew needs to face, and answer in court, the charges that have been made against him. Otherwise, they amount to little more than a convenient distraction from issues the government would prefer us not to know about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:35 PM

It sounds like Trump's GOP party has some influence over there (if you can't win fairly, block everyone from voting so only your supporters can vote, or oversee the elections in such a way that you can cancel a lot of votes if you think you can get away with it).

The question about Harry and Meghan is based upon what is in the news here - we have most recently learned that Andrew is no longer acting as one of the Senior Royals, Johnson is trying to talk his way out trouble for going to a party during a COVID lockdown period, and Harry is having more trouble than either of those two bad actors, simply for emancipating himself from the royal framework. Andrew still lives where he does, has security, and Johnson is (for now) still prime minister. Harry appears to be shit out of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 03:09 PM

Labour List sees that as a resounding victory for Labour in the Lords. Unfortunately, proposals for mandatory voter ID and new powers for ministers over the independent Electoral Commission have been passed. Another deliberate blow to our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 01:49 PM

I think the policing bill is probably the most relevant but to discuss it may be seen as protesting...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 01:38 PM

We could start by ditching off-topic nonsense about a pair of sidelined ex-royals and discussing instead our serious political issues, such as the standoff between Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, which could conceivably play a huge part in the hoped-for downfall of our resident PM liar and charlatan. After all, it is supposedly a thread about UK political topics. I guess that UK people may be the ones in pole position to best prioritise them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:01 PM

With regards to the Royal Family, the military, police and security services are charges with their safety. H&M (not the clothing store) have offered to pay their wy towards accessing the same services.

Private security companies would be problematic as they would need to have access to all premises for the whole royal family = tht would in itself be a security risk as they would not necessarily have the same level of vetting as the royal households' secirity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:49 AM

Anyway - back to politics. where do we start?

(1) Proposals to use the military to push back people seeking safety and asylum?
(2) Progress of government legislation of proposals for suppressing thousands of votes in order to prevent 2 or 3 fraudulent votes when the whole idea of enfranchisement is to encourage rather than discourage people from voting?
(3) Defeat in the House of Lords of the controversial policing bill?
(4) Johnson today stating that he was not clear what the rules he passed as Prime Minister meant in terms of holding parties while thousand of people faced restrictions on who can attend funerals - with reference to the parents who had to socially distance while attending their child's funeral.
(5)The price of milk (2 pints) goin up from 80p to 95p - 18.75% and how much of this is due to loss of EU farm subsidies?
(6) Raising of the energy cap by about 40%?

That's all I can think of for this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 11:35 AM

Some of the mud-slinging was cleared out.

So what is the story with Harry and Meghan not allowed to hire their own police protection if they're in the UK? The royal family isn't going to offer protection. We see news that Harry is taking this to court - so what is it about the private security business that the royal family (who live with a protective detail 24/7) can tell someone else they aren't supposed to hire? Are in fact prohibited?

Harry, who simply separated his life from that of the rest of the royal family, seems to be treated as badly as Andrew, who is being investigated for a crime. Worse, since Andrew probably still has protection.

Is this political?

AND JUST REINTRODUCE your political topics, Steve. Don't go on a rant about moderation. We can all live without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

Man, when you guys go off-topic, you REALLY go off topic.

In my opinion, this whole thread exemplifies the fighting mentality we're trying to eliminate, and should be closed...
because folks can't stick to a subject, or be polite, or not eschew personal issues in favor of...what is it this threads is supposed to be about?

I suggest turning the course of this around, and getting back to politics.

Please

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 08:11 AM

And one thing I’m absolutely certain of is that there are many far more serious and important issues we should be discussing than the rights and wrongs of my use of a single expletive. If my saying ‘fucking’ in one post is the biggest problem perceived by a few posters here, they really do need to get their heads out of the clouds and their feet back on the ground. Jesus wept!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Sorry Dave, I was busy with my matitudinal ablutions!

You’re absolutely correct, of course. And just to clarify my point for those who are clearly addicted to Tory Kool-aid, the ‘NHS Track & Trace’ system, which was an abject failure and cost £21 billion, was a government project, not an NHS operation. And the ‘Government’s Vaccination scheme’ has been organised and managed, very successfully indeed, by the NHS.

Such is the insidious nature of the Johnson Gang’s Propaganda Campaign - something so simple and so slight as switching ‘Government’ and ‘NHS’ in order to blur the lines of responsibility for success and failure.

No wonder I swear at them - they’d make the Pope swear! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:43 AM

No words for me John? I feel left out! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 12:39 PM

So the LibDems are putting forward a vote of no confidence in Johnson.

Which is probably the only action in existence to stop MPs writing the the 1922 committee, to get most of them to rally round Johnson and, I believe, if he retains the confidence there cannot be another confidence vote for a year.

With one bound the LibDems set Johnson free ... again.

Very well done there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 11:41 AM

That addresses none of the mismanagement, negligence and corruption claim, Bonzo. The NHS has been mismanaged and neglected to the point where it can no longer cope. That is a matter of record as is the corruption of the current set of con men running the country. Even Hitler got some things right but that does not excuse all else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 10:42 AM

"mismanagement, negligence and corruption"

Let's see -

Vaccine roll out:

Total – first dose
52,071,960

Total – second dose
47,866,176

Total – booster or third dose
36,295,768

Up to 4 Nov 2021 — £28.1 billion has been paid in SEISS grants

Up to September 2021, the total value of claims made to the CJRS reached £70 billion

Thank goodness for "mismanagement, negligence and corruption"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:39 AM

I could be wrong but I think ABCD was being ironic. 'Corbyn would have been worse' is the excuse of those who voted for the corrupt set of shysters that call themselves a government

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:09 AM

"Everyone can surely agree that things would be so much worse, in every conceivable way, were that Jeremy Corbin in charge..."

Please enlighten us with every decision Corbyn would have made, and the evidence that you clearly have which us mere mortals are not privy to over the last 10 years. As far as I recollect, he has not been in government. Neither he has ever been a minister or Prime Minister.

As far as Johnson is concerned, his mismanagement, negligence and corruption is a matter of public record.

I am not a fan of Corbyn myself, but if you are going to make sweeping statements, then we would all like to see your evidence. It is like saying, for example, I am personally corrupt as I did not make sure that johnson did not break social distancing rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 02:54 AM

ABCD :-D

Bonzo, I thought you had left?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 10:53 PM

Everyone can surely agree that things would be so much worse, in every conceivable way, were that Jeremy Corbin in charge...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 04:30 PM

The downside to Boris's political disintegration is that his replacement is very likely to be even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 03:16 PM

One of Johnson’s Brexit-Fruitcake MP-buddies, the oily and obnoxious Andrew Bridgen, is now calling for his resignation…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/13/boris-johnson-delivered-brexit-vaccines-left-deliver-resignation/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 02:51 PM

In fact it sounds unlikely, since at tgat time Sue Gray was working in Northern Ireland.