BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 12:51 AM

I have never said that Putins invasion was justified, nor are USA drone attacks. The idea that Putin is going to march in to the UK asBonzo said is laughable.
EconOmic sanctions are not working and are affecting the poorest people in Europe and the UK, and are a contribution to inflation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 03:27 AM

meanwhile armament manufacturers have made money.
generally speaking after a war the economy of the war stricken country picks up, this is one of the very sad facts about wars and capitalism, governments find people expendable,
Bonzo,   Russia is a capitalist country as is the USA.
Economic sanctions are not appearing to be working, so what should happen next, why are they not working?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 03:58 AM

Well done, Dick, you have clarified your argument and I cannot disagree with any point but your last. However, as that is a world issue and not specifically UK politics I will not address it here.

Whether we agree with it or not, it is Mudcat policy to keep UK politics on one thread. Because of that it is important to keep that one thread on track. US and world politics can have many threads so please feel free to start another one about Russian sanctions or any other world issues thst you need to get off your chest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 06:54 AM

Full Fact analysis of last nights debate between the 'two cheeks' (Nice on Steve)

I did not watch it as we have only had the TV 2 years and I did not want to throw something at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 07:19 AM

It was interesting, Dave - the shouty, bully-boy, talk-over-everyone-else tactics of Fishy Rishi versus the somewhat wooden, no-idea-how-to-respond Dizzy Lizzie.

It didn’t really give me a clue as to which one would make the best (or, rather, ‘least-worst’) PM, but it was enough to confirm my already-held belief that I don’t want either of the buggers in No. 10.

It really is time for Labour to bury hatchets and pull together to consign these shabby bunch of Tory crooks to history - they will never have a better chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 08:18 AM

It didn’t really give me a clue as to which one would make the best (or, rather, ‘least-worst’) PM, ....

Even if it had, unless you are a member of the Conservative Party, you'll get what your given. Licence payers' money shouldn't be used to canvass less than 0.5% of the UK electorate who will be making the choice. That should come out of Party funds.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 08:42 AM

Completely agree about who should bear the cost, Doug. But who becomes PM affects everyone who lives in the UK, and we are all perfectly entitled to have an opinion as to which candidate would make the better choice, no matter whether we have a vote in the election or not.

One of the problems with our political and electoral system is that it has been moved more and more towards a ‘Presidential-style’ system where, at General Elections, people are increasingly voting based on their preferred party leader as much as, if not more than, the party itself. This, along with our archaic FPTP system, I believe is rapidly sending our political system down the toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 10:04 AM

It is has been reported today that the Metropolitan Police did not send the required questionaires to Johnson over his attendance at two Dowing Streets parties during lockdown.

This smacks of a cover up at the very highest levels of our Police force. One law for them another for us so it would seem.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 10:08 AM

I don't think it would have made much odds at this stage, Raggy. He was so covered in shit that he was pushed off his perch and to carry on piling up the manure would not have achieved much.

I do agree about a police cover up though and that should certainly reach the ears of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 12:22 PM

Can't agree with that Dave. If a law is broken it should be followed up and a prosecution should take place, even if that is merely the imposition of a fine.

Once again Johnson has got away with an offence, I don't if that same leniency would be applied to the public at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 01:55 PM

Fairy Nuff

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 02:09 PM

I thought Truss more likely to win than Sunak, but her reaction to this medical incident which has taken their debate off the air will do more her campaign than anything else. It looked a human response, and then as if she was going to try to help. People will like that.

Rishi may have as well, but as the camera was not on him, he will get no benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 22 - 04:29 PM

n the blue corner, Rishi Sunak – the former chancellor, warning of an economic national emergency, as though he’s forgotten that just weeks ago, he was running the economy.

And in the bluer corner, Liz Truss – recent graduate of the esteemed school of fantasy economics and leading Thatcher tribute act, promising billions in unfunded tax cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 22 - 04:29 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00199wz
leeds life in the bus lane
Rima Ahmed takes the bus into Leeds, meeting passengers, campaigners and history buffs to find out why it is 'the biggest city in Western Europe without a mass transit system'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 06:48 AM

Bearing in mind the stuff that’s going on on the UK Political scene ATM, I’m surprised this thread isn’t smokin’!

*160 thousand toffs and toff-wannabees electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us.

*The Tory Propaganda Machine trying to brainwash the public into believing it only takes one to tango where the Pay-Claim/T&Cs dispute between the RMT and rail-employers is concerned.

*The same Tory Propaganda Machine working hard to brainwash the hard-of-thinking into believing the lie that the enemy of ordinary working people is other ordinary working people.

*Labour sacking the Shadow Transport Minister for supporting the RMT strikers by attending a picket line.

…etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Hello-oo! Anybody out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 07:41 AM

*160 thousand toffs and toff-wannabees electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us.
a) "toffs, toff wannabees" and those who believe that a Conservative government will be better for the country, and the people, than a Labour government would.
b) "electing the next PM on behalf of the other 64 million of us". No, the General election decided which party will run the country. The current leadership election is on behalf of the Conservative party, not the general population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 10:00 AM

There is plenty happening, for certain, but as a consequence of the different approaches of the two prospective leaders, and since I am not someone who is entitled to a say in it, I don't see a lot of point in commenting when things are at a point crossroads between two very different paths.

I listen to a podcast by Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell which is very interesting. They are both of the opinion that Sunak is much further to the right than Truss, and said the next big battle ground in the Conservatives is likely to be Charter Cities that Sunak is quite keen on.

That is something worth keeping an eye on. The innocuous sounding 'Chart Cities Institute' promoting them is another one of these 55 Tufton Street groups that are generally more alt-right than just right wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 10:02 AM

"Charter Cities Institute". My usual typing randomness!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 01:10 PM

Around 160,000 people who are mostly white, mostly male, mostly wealthy and mostly elderly and mostly anti-trade union ARE going to choose the next prime minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 03:19 PM

Around 160,000 people who are mostly white, mostly male, mostly wealthy and mostly elderly and mostly anti-trade union ARE going to choose the next prime minister.

And quite rightly too.
The populace elected a Conservative government, and the Conservatives have a system for electing a leader.
If Labour were in government they would expect to be allowed to elect their own leader. Last time they did so (although not in government) they elected Keir Starmer. The time before they elected Jeremy Corbyn. Somewhat earlier the rank and file had no choice because Blair appointed Brown.
Yes, I know that in between Labour had Harman (acting) Milliband, and Harman (acting).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jul 22 - 05:51 PM

I don't think the rank and file had much say when Theresa May was chosen as leader, either,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 04:33 AM

"And quite rightly too.
The populace elected a Conservative government, and the Conservatives have a system for electing a leader.
If Labour were in government they would expect to be allowed to elect their own leader. Last time they did so (although not in government) they elected Keir Starmer. The time before they elected Jeremy Corbyn. Somewhat earlier the rank and file had no choice because Blair appointed Brown."

Absolutely

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 04:50 AM

I have to question the calibre of David Cameron who foolishly as a political ploy allowed a brexit refrendum, and the follwing conservative policy of forming a political strategy of allying with the brexit parties during the general election.
if i was to use the word unpatroitic[ in the sense steve shaw means] this political shensnigans was not for the good of the nation. the uk at the moment is in a state of feck up.
and all due in the first place to david cameron

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:20 AM

DMcG:
Quite right, the 'rank and file'/membership were not given a vote because one of the two short-listed stood down. And in my view Theresa May was not the person for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:28 AM

The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes], and the first past the post electoral system which relies upon a system where there are two main opposition parties, thus splitting the vote, the liberal party under this system are particularly dealt with unfairly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 06:48 AM

Well, hmm. "The populace elected a conservative government." Sorry, Nigel, but each member of that electorate took part (if they voted at all) in the election of an MP. I don't remember the ballot paper giving me the option of choosing a particular colour of government. It's amazing how you guys on the right always purport to know what's in voters' minds. "The people voted to take back control." Really? What if I said that "the people" voted to keep out foreigners, especially the ones without white skin? Who's going to say which of us is closer? Individual voters have their own agendas. It would be a good bet that some Tory party members will vote for Truss "because we need another woman," or for Sunak for the very opposite reason. Both terrible ways of making the decision, eh? But who's to know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:02 AM

DMcG:
Quite right, the 'rank and file'/membership were not given a vote because one of the two short-listed stood down. And in my view Theresa May was not the person for the job.

A bit off topic, in a way, but relevant to the current PM selection in another.

When you say Theresa May was not the right person for the job in your view, are you saying Andrea Leadsom was?   Because, if not, that speaks to a problem with the members just being the choice between two. I have likened the situation between a magician's forced card. What if the members at large didn't want either of these two, and would have preferred say Penny Mordaunt? "Those are the rules" seems a weak argument to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:26 AM

Very nice to see intelligent, considered debate here. It definitely beats “Lefties are a bunch of arrogant wankers” kind of stuff, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:28 AM

I appreciate your appreciation!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 07:34 AM

Bonzo, your comments only weaken your credibilty, to resort to name calling reflects a weakness , an inabilty to discuss in a rational manner

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 09:10 AM

"The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes], and the first past the post electoral system which relies upon a system where there are two main opposition parties, thus splitting the vote, the liberal party under this system are particularly dealt with unfairly."

Unless we end up with a coalition government, we nearly always end up with a government which has received less than 50% of the vote. Certainly not ideal but it is the 'British' way. Neither Labour or Conservatives are keen on changing that method of voting.

Gerrymandering? Are you being serious? Yes we have boundary changes. Are you saying that is wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 01:22 PM

The conservatives won 43.6% of the popular vote, that means that 66.4 percent of the voters did not vote for them, they were elected as a result of previous gerrymandering[boundary changes],

The latest (sixth) boundary review was not implemented.
The fifth review was, in 2010, based on a review of 2007. That would suggest that any 'gerrymandering' was the responsibility of the party at that time in power.

If the Conservative Party got in with 43.6% of the vote then that is an improvement on the previous (2005) government which got in with 35.2%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 01:27 PM

Boundary changes can be wrong if their purpose is to ensure a particular political party gets less representation, Rain Dog. That is gerrymandering. Yes, it can happen and is difficult to either prove or fight against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:25 PM

I do not care who is keen on it, and to argue something is ok because it is the British way, is indicative of the mess the country is in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:27 PM

iS IT OK to say the queues at Dover are ok? because its the british way and the british love waiting in a queue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 05:36 PM

"Bonzo, your comments only weaken your credibilty, to resort to name calling reflects a weakness , an inabilty to discuss in a rational manner"

I couldn't give a pikey's arse!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 02:42 AM

Are you going for the record of highest number of offensive posts deleted bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 03:42 AM

Are you going for the record of highest number of offensive posts deleted bonzo?

No, he's going for the record of the highest number of bites from people who resist making a reply.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 03:44 AM

....who can't resist making a reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 04:52 AM

Good point, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 10:03 AM

Doug - BG :-D

FWIW though when such remarks are deleted the replies usually go with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 06:32 PM

I don't think deletions matter if someone is keeping their own tally - a bite is a bite.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 03:17 AM

Truss is attacking the civil service an also Nicola Sturgeon, she seems intent on demonstrating aggression

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 04:04 AM

At last, a Conservative politician makes a statement about matters Scottish which is entirely accurate and even truthful. In behaving in such an unprecedented manner, maybe she's just seeking attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 08:32 AM

She is demonstrating that she's best for the job of PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 08:52 AM

"She is demonstrating that she's best for the job of PM."

Ye Gods she can't even pronounce Taoiseach. She is supposed to be a leading politician and should KNOW these things.


Tea Sock

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 09:31 AM

You don't prove that you'll be a good prime minister by talking. We had a headmaster once who was an absolutely brilliant speaker, a quick thinker, very eloquent (it's how he got the job). He was the worst imaginable head, weak, arbitrary, flip-flopping, easily bullied by his senior staff, managed to get us duffed up by Ofsted...

Clever talk don't butter no parsnips, Bonzo. 'Tis by her fruits shalt thou knowest her (as for me personally, she can keep her fruits to herself).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 09:48 AM

Clever?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 10:42 AM

Er, quite...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 22 - 11:12 AM

Tea-shock.....?