BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:46 PM

The ECHR report into Labour

I have not read it yet, but will do as soon as possible.

As far as I am aware at the moment, Corbyn was not directly named in the report, but was suspended because in his remarks after the report was published he acknowledged anti-Semitism but said it was overstated. This fell foul of Starmer's remarks that those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM

That is the way I have seen it too DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM

So how long before starmer starts suspending Jewish labour members,
who disagree with his unreasonable authoritarian definitions
of 'unacceptable anti-semitic behaviour'...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM

Sounds like Starmer is winding up the lefties - I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM

Nothing sensible to add Bonzo?

Maybe you're just trying to fill the void left by the previous trolls. Be careful though and remember what happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:34 PM

” the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"

1) As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Tories have an 80-seat majority, so nothing Labour may have suggested has any relevance.

2) Neither you, nor I, have any information on the detail of discussions which took place between the Tory and Labour leadership regarding the handling of the COVID crisis, so your assertion that Labour offered no alternatives is mere supposition.

" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.”

There’s a great deal of evidence that these things are already, or are destined to be, part of the negotiations between the US and the UK. It’s been widely reported in the press and media, and commented on by members of the government. Easy to find unless, of course, one chooses to pretend it doesn’t exist.

"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Once again, numerous examples widely reported in the press and the media - easy to find unless, of course, one chooses not to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:26 AM

I still haven't found where the BBC, or any other news agency, have reported that "Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings" but I did find the following while I was looking

It (the EHRC) found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints

Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints

Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears

So, to me, that suggests that the "Day of Shame" refers to how complaints were handled and harassment of those complaining rather than any institutional racism. Once the report has been fully digested I would be interested to see if it suggests that antisemitism in the Labour party is worse than in any other large organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:22 AM

Reading the report is on my to-do list for today, so I won't talk about it directly yet.

Politically, I am sure Boris Johnson and co are heaving a sigh of relief that Covid and Brexit have been driven out of the media. They will be aware how long the papers kept Labour and anti-Semitism in play last time and I am sure they hope they can do so again.

I don't think that will happen. For one thing, the US election will drive Labour off the media in a day or two at most. Then people care more about lockdowns and other things that affect them directly than Labour's troubles.   I am sure come the next PMQ or two Johnson will try to drag this into his answers at every opportunity, but I don't think it has the 'legs' it had before.   A huge lorry queue at Dover, if it happens, is simply more newsworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:39 AM

Thanks, DMcG. I look forward to your analysis.

Interesting quote from Caroline Waters, Interim Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. There have been recent examples of behaviour from politicians of various parties that fall well below the standards we would expect. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. Our recommendations provide a foundation for leaders to make sure that they adhere to equality law and demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion through their words and actions

Can we look forward to an enquiry into the "behaviour from politicians of various parties"?

I doubt it somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:34 AM

I have made a start on the document, but highly recommend everyone interested to read the forward and the executive summary. It is very clearly written and in plain English, and will not take very long. A few highlights:

But, more than that, politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. What politicians say and do matters. Their words and actions send a message about what is acceptable and what is not.
In recent times, there have been examples of behaviour that falls well below the standards we would expect, from politicians of various parties. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. The recommendations in this report provide a foundation to assist all politicians and political leaders in adhering to equality law, while still protecting freedom of expression and engaging in the robust and wide-ranging debate that is a core part of living in a democratic society

.. so yes, this is focused on Labour, but no one should interpret the issue as just about Labour. All parties have, at times, fallen short.


The issue of antisemitism within the Labour Party has been the subject of much scrutiny, most formally with three investigations in 2016, conducted by Baroness Chakrabarti, Baroness Royall and the Home Affairs Select Committee (HASC). Since then, the Party has failed to implement the recommendations made in these reports fully, or to take effective measures to stop antisemitic conduct from taking place. It is regrettable that many of the concerns we raise here were first raised in these reports over four years ago

.. some in the past have regarded Baroness Chakrabarti's report as a whitewash. That is not the ECHR view. But they do say its recommendations have not been implemented adequately.

This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw: • A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders. • In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

Although only a few cases are addressed in this report, there is much more. While some of these are definitely antisemtic, because the people concerned are not employed by Labour, Labour has no legal responsibility for them. That does not make the actions excusable: it is simply the Labour Party is not legally responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:52 AM

Yes, I got that far DMcG. It is also interesting to note that the commission does not address any actual complaints of antisemitism or uphold them. I would have thought that was its job. I do understand that it also looks at procedures for dealing with equality issues and that the Labour party is guilty of not dealing with the complaints properly. It is interesting to note that hours after the report's publication the CAA have issued a 70-odd page list of complaints, dating back many years, against members of the Labour party. All, it seems, from the left wing. I shall not speculate as to the motives behind this or the timing of it but let people draw their own conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.

Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM

UK politics, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM

... irrelevant without a....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM

Not me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...