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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 01:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 01:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 01:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 01:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 11:59 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 21 - 11:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 11:32 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 21 - 09:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 08:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 06:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 06:08 AM
DMcG 12 May 21 - 05:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 May 21 - 05:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 05:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 21 - 05:10 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 May 21 - 05:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 21 - 03:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 21 - 12:27 AM
Donuel 11 May 21 - 06:41 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 04:04 PM
Allan Conn 11 May 21 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 11:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 11:24 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 09:31 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 09:25 AM
Backwoodsman 11 May 21 - 08:40 AM
Donuel 11 May 21 - 08:35 AM
DMcG 11 May 21 - 07:52 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 06:25 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 21 - 06:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 06:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 May 21 - 05:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 05:21 AM
Backwoodsman 11 May 21 - 05:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 04:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 04:13 AM
The Sandman 11 May 21 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 11 May 21 - 03:48 AM
Backwoodsman 11 May 21 - 03:32 AM
Backwoodsman 11 May 21 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 21 - 02:53 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 21 - 08:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 21 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 21 - 06:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 21 - 04:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 21 - 04:39 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 21 - 04:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 21 - 03:47 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:41 PM

Not watched it all as my attention span is too short! But I have been aware of the community wealth project in Preston for a long time. In fact, I have commented on it on here when discussing the role of responsible capitalism in socialist societies. I was quite surprised by the mention of Salford in the same piece as my experience of Salford council is a corrupt bunch of incompetents in the pocket of Peel Holdings. I suppose the leopard can change its spots. Andy Burnham seems ok but I don't know enough about him. If he brings Manchester buses back under public ownership, he'll do me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:19 PM

University...!!!????

wot kind of toff do you think I am..

I went to a proper commie den of revolutionaries Polytechnic
to study the most lefty Humanities degree this side of the iron curtain..


Though I did get an offer from Bradford Uni to do social psychology..
But I'd just split up with a girlfriend up there on that course...

Shame, I really liked Bradford in the late 70s/early 80s...


So has anyone watched that "Optimism" link I posted...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:05 PM

...The other thing was the street entranced terrace I was dragged up in was directly facing the school!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:03 PM

Bloody 'ell PFR. You went to grammar school, university and lived in London? Middle class if ever I saw it... :-D I dropped out of 6th form college after the first term because I had a girlfriend and we wanted to marry. I did win a place on a day release economics degree at Wigan tech (miner's collage) but that stopped after the first term because there were only 3 of us doing it. I did pretty well at my day release ONC in business studies even though I spent most of my day release afternoons in the pub next door :-)

Funny you mention the Polish kid - I was that kid in 1957 Salford. No funny accent but a strange name was enough to get you beat up in those days. I was grateful when the first black kid started at our school in about 1960 and took the heat off me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:59 AM

When I was in infant school,
a polish family moved onto our Council estate.
Their young lad started at our school.

He was a complete novelty being a foreigner..
..and we'd piss ourselves laughing every time we heard, or tried to say his hilarious unpronounceable foreign name..

Our estate also had a Welshman and an Irish family..

Some might have said that was too many foreigners already...???

Many years later I saw my first black person walking on the estate.
He was a postman.
That got neighbours talking...

"Mother was a local girl,
she went with an American GI stationed here during the war - the scandal of it..
..but he's a nice postie all considering his colour.."

From then on he was the novelty friendly black postie.
Can't have been many other towns in Scrumpyshire that had one to compete with ours..

Then word got round, the next nearest bigger town had just got themselves an Indian doctor and his entire family..

Locals were split between those who feared being swamped and taken over like Enoch was warning;
and others who thought them an exotic new status symbol..

Back then our estate was solidly working class, most families working in the factory our homes were built to service.
Where my dad was a shop steward.

The factory Social club was the hub of the estate..

Our extended family was solidly Labour voters.
I'd presume most of the rest of the estate was as well.

But let's have no illusions about white working class labour voting ordinary folks.
On the whole I remember my estate being reactionary, small-minded, and thuggish..
As soon as I was selected for grammar school, I became shunned by my old school pals, and marked as a target..

.. and we were one of the better class estates in the area.
The respectable working class..

But I'm no historian or sociologist,
You'll just have to give my anecdotal account the benefit of the doubt
(Or not, I won't bother arguing)..

That was half a century ago.

When I was a teenager, Rock against racism and the anti-na@zi league put my head straight;
and rescued me from the institutionalized racist norm of my council estate childhood
But I was in a minority of college-educated local kids,
becoming politicised by radical ideas propagated via London music scene magazines...

It was only when I was 18 or 21,
that my mum summoned the courage to break it to me that I was part Jewish by blood.
The family had kept their dark secret from me all along that my Dunkirk hero grandad wasn't my real grandad after all.
I no longer had his DNA strengthening my body and being.
My real grandad who I'd never met was in fact a young feckless Jewish flash Harry who'd taken a fancy to my grandmother..

Mum implored me to keep the secret to myself..

Complex reasons too far back in time to ever fathom out...???

Fast forward a few years,
thatcher started selling off the council houses to factory workers on the estate, bribery for their votes..

Then the factory was suddenly closed down and everybody made redundant.
And those who could not keep up their mortgages, homeless..
Their homes sold on to all kinds of incomers to the estate.

Fortunately, my parent's political principles would not let them buy our council house.
Which is why I'm sat typing in it now,
as I am clearing it out in readiness to hand back to the housing association.
To hopefully continue for as long as possible as good quality social housing for a new young family...

These days, I honestly believe my old estate gradually became less overtly racist,
for various reasons throughout all the turmoil of the 1980s and forwards.
The estate is now more rainbow colours with black and mixed-race families.
Most of the town takeaways are kebabs pizzas Indian and Chinese.
It was a novelty when a proper fish and chip shop opened recently.
(Owned by a local Asian businessman).

Evidence of some genuine progress.

But I think it's safe to assume the build up to brexit has to a significant extent brought largely dormant incipient racism back to the foreground...???

Perfect hunting ground for far-right recruiters and their pernicious social media propaganda.

My cousins use racist language in casual conversation.
Total lack of awareness.
They are not thick or thuggish people.
Put it down to to environmental upbringing and quality of education...???

One of the west country's prominent far-right YouTube influencers lives in our vicinity...!!!

After I moved back from London to Scrumpyshire 20 years ago, I drank regularly in a local old established workingmens club.
I was seen as just another white middle-aged bloke who looked normal, liked his cider, and kept quietly to himself.
So their views were not withheld within my ear shot.

Times had changed, and they must have been aware that they could no longer make racist comments openly in public about Black, Asian and other Ethnic communities without risking getting into trouble.

So the Polish were a godsend to them.
Poles are white, so it was ok, they were fair game for endless old fashioned bitter racist hatred diatribes..

It was too easy to see direct links with the newspapers they were reading and the bitter dislike for Poles taking all our building jobs and rented accommodation..

Cue the onset of brexitering...


That is why Tommy Robinson and his ilk have been so successful..

And something the Labour party needs to take on board when profiling potential candidates for ex labour voting old traditional working class constituencies...

That is the obvious reason why I ask where are the lefty "Tommy Robinsons"...???

Not fukwit racist extremists, but solid working class motivated and inspiring blokes and blokettes who locals can identify with..

So in conclusion, bollocks to all the bollocks..

Let's keep our sense of humour and not fall into pointless stupid divisive bickering amongst ourselves..

We need our strength for fighting tories and their even worse allies...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:48 AM

Well I guess the Tommy Robinson quip got me scratching my head a bit, but knowing that pfr is basically an all-round good egg I chose not to do any interpretive delving...

Yeah, we need a Prescott. A dodgy geezer at times but nowhere near as dodgy as the current twat in charge, and PMQs would have been nothing if not highly entertaining...

If I could ask Sir Keir just the one question, it would be "What have you got against feisty, grassroots northern working-class women?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 11:32 AM

I'm not just Polish though, Steve. Grandad was a Russian Orthodox priest who died of ill health brought on by mistreatment by Russian communists and having to leave Poland in a hurry because of the Nazis. When Grandad was incarcerated in Russia for his beliefs, Grandma had to make her own way back to Poland, on foot, with 2 young children, sleeping in ditches and living off the land. Beat that you buggers!

Apologies to all, especially PFR, for being a bit tetchy. I have been under considerable stress of late and, while that has lessened, it has been replaced with a whole new worry. Not ready to discuss yet but I assure all that if I have caused any offence, it is not anything you have done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 09:15 AM

Right, yer buggers, I'm getting in on this Polish malarkey,.. My best mate at school was a Pole (we are still in touch), and I spent many a long evening at the Polish club in Bury (I also frequently inhabited the ones in Bolton and Rochdale). I met a lovely young Polish woman at the Bury club and we went out for several years, eventually getting engaged (she called it off much to my chagrin, but I rapidly ended up with Mrs Steve for the next 45 years and counting!). Many of their parents were Polish emigrés and they were all Catholics, big time. I was one of the few non-Poles in their social circle. They were nearly all viciously anti-Polish Jew, for reasons they didn't always make clear. Funnily enough, when I started teaching in London one of my best boozing buddies was the son of Polish-Jewish emigrés... He didn't give a flying fart about those ingrained animosities... I never did get my head round all that lot... I must have sung that Sto Lat song a thousand times, without having a clue what I was singing about!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 08:05 AM

PFR - back atcher - What do you think I have accused you of? Maybe if you "actually read what was clearly intended, rather than getting het up over what you thought I meant" you may have seen that it was the Tommy Robinson comment you made that is the contentious point.

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians...


Reads remarkably like the odious Robinson is a straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic polition.

When you later go on to say

a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion, who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

Which 'certain social demographics do you believe will be influenced by the likes of Tommy Robinson?

I must admit though that you made me laugh when you tried to take the piss of background story and then attempted to trump it with your link about Polish Jews. Is there a 4 Jews, story? Gas chambers? Bloody luxury... :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 06:15 AM

btw..


.. before anyone else makes the mistake of tarring me
with far right extremism..

This is where the Polish branch of my family tree came to an abrupt end...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 06:08 AM

DMcG - Fair cop.. I've never had a good memory for details...

If so, time for a rule change..

A new Leader needs to select a reliable deputy they can get on with and trust.
Stabilty at the very top of the party is absolutely essential...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:56 AM

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...

If I remember rightly, he didn't. Watson was elected by the Labour party memebership, so in a way it is a mirror image of Starmer and Rayner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:55 AM

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson..
Blair & Brown? Julius Caesar & Brutus/Cassius/Casca . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:34 AM

ps..

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson..

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:27 AM

DtG - working classier than thou

Never mind the kneejerks...

At what point in my post, or any time in my life,
have I ever condoned or advocated
the kind of extremism and sterotypes you have just gone off on one accusing me about...!!!???

I am clearly only talking about a certain kind of charismatic individuals with character and background,
who are more captivating to ex Labour voters..

Successful right wing influencers are very good at seducing ordinary working class, and middle class folks..

I've perhaps wasted far more time than you
studying the bastards on the internet...???
Empirical research...

.. tommy was a tongue in cheek, though still serious, pointer
towards a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion,
who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

I qualified it with obvious "lefty" and "???"s
if you'd actually read what was clearly intended,
rather than getting het up over
what you thought I meant...

Maybe I could have gone even further and suggested adolf...!!!???

The point still remains, who the f@ck can Labour put up to fill that void
to fight fire with fire..

Could anyone like John Prescott even stand a chance
to rise up the Party hierarchy anymore,
as dominated as it seems by middle class careerists..


OPTIMISM


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:10 AM

You could almost be describing Rayner as leader and Starmer as deputy, pfr...but a cautiinary note here...when we had a leftie leader (Corbyn) and a right-wing deputy (Watson) it didn't go well, did it? Whilst Corbyn tried to maintain his dignity, Watson made it abundantly clear to the world that he didn't want to be associated with him. I ask again - who really ARE the splitters in the party?

I must say, I wasn't too comfy with your lefty Tommy Robinson either. Not quite sure what you had in mind there...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:05 AM

The only difference with low-income and wealthy people 'pissing money against the wall' is that the wealthy waste a lot more and still have more money left over than they know what to do with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 21 - 03:44 AM

PFR - Why should us working class folk accept "left wing Tommy Robinsons"? Extremism in any form is a anathema. I was brought up on council estates in Salford and like Steve spent my early years in a 2 up 2 down street entranced terrace with no bathroom. My Dad, a Polish painter and decorator, spent his life here as a union activist and Labour supporter while hating fascists and communists with equal venom. I worked in the building trade from doing holiday jobs labouring to being a site inspector for Manchester council until I discovered I was better at IT. Yet I would never dream of supporting an extremist of any ilk. Your depiction of the working class being drudges who live in the gutter, piss their money up the wall and are easily swayed by populism is as out of touch as the very politicians you are railing against. What I and many like me want is a government that looks after everyone's interests equally. Not populist trickery from any side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 21 - 12:27 AM

For some time I've been one of the folks consistently criticising the Labour party
for becoming over-run by santimonious academic ideologues,
and smarmy affluent middle class professional political & business suit 'n' tie clones..

So it's their party now...!!!???

A Labour party disdainful of, and preaching scornfully down at the rough, un-PC, working class


No real surprise then, original traditional Labour voters
have become so alienated by this unwelcome invasion of snooty elitist 'superiors and betters',
that they've became easy exploited target mass converts for the oportunist populist far right...

Now as despicable as they are, our enemy, far right organisers and influencers
have proven time again they have far more political awareness and intelligence
than the out of touch Labour party upper hierarchy,
who the working class can no longer identify with...

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians..

One of 'us'.. council estate born and raised..
celebrating our rebellious unpretensious working class culture, and vulgar disrespectful sense of humour...

Genuinely authentic down to earth politicians who can appeal to and inspire
the generation of former Labour voters who are now sick of the Labour party,
and flocking to good time geezer boris - and his 'couldn't give a shit about petty rules and laws' personality...

Like it or not, that's the role model so many lost labour voters now aspire to..

boris and the far right understand this, goody two shoes moralistic Labour don't..

I'd suggest the likes of Starmer, would probably be better practical use as Deputy Labour leaders...???
Using their upper echelon establishment professional finesse and contacts network,
to support, protect, and guide, a real working class Labour leader
through the nest of vipers that is parliament and british media...

.. But... oh well.. back to depressing reality.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:41 PM

Woof, I have been like little lord Fauntelroy in comparison and have had a easy ride and childhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:31 PM

"The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior..."

"...unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda..."

For the first ten years of my life I lived in a slum infested with beetles, with no hot water tap and an outside toilet that froze up every winter. Latchkey kid. There was a flooded mine shaft five yards from my front door in which a four-year-old boy drowned while I lived there. My last primary school class had 48 kids in it. We were bloody hard up, and so what if I've done well to get myself out of that. My head has never been in the clouds about the rampant inequalities in our society and I've stood on picket lines in the freezing cold at six in the morning to support school cleaners, hospital workers and firemen. I have never not been a trade unionist. You call for party unity. That happened under Blair for a time. During that time the chasm between the rich and poor got ever wider. Go figure, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:04 PM

So Mandelson has suggested to Starmer that he severs links with trade unions and left-wing factions. You see? That's the right of the party's idea of "unity..."

Sounds like Angela Rayner (scared to call her Angie...Sorry, Angie...) was hopping mad with Keir at the weekend. She certainly got the better of him. Her team (though not her) have even suggested that she could challenge him for the leadership. Now how great would that be!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 May 21 - 01:55 PM

Donuel what do you mean by there hasn't been a border since Hadrian's Wall. The Scottish/English border ceased officially being an international border in 1707.!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 11:28 AM

Second BTW. What happened to being done with this and not losing any friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 11:24 AM

Yes, John. We do need to pull together. In which direction are you suggesting we pull? Right or left? If something is being pulled in opposite directions, then at least 2 people are doing it. Which is right and which is wrong?

BTW, I have met Becky on a number of occasions and she wouldn't mind the familiarity at all. She is a lot closer to those working class grass roots that you hold so dear than Sir Keir. And it is quite noticeable where the bad feeling in this thread seems to be emanating from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 09:31 AM

By the way, in the party they are Angie and Becky. My daughter is called Rebecca. The only person who ever calls her that is her mother, and even then only when she's angry. They would have made a dream team, instead of which we've got stodge on toast. Two northern working-class women at the top of a socialist-leaning party. What a shot in the arm for our politics that would have been. Boris would have been pooping his pantaloons every bloody week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 09:25 AM

Who were the people in the party who, for years, got the bit between their teeth over the completely false allegations of Corbyn's antisemitism? Who ditched Ken Livingstone? Do you think they were honest brokers? What about the ones who kept silent and let it rumble? Don't you think they knew what damage they were doing? Anything to unseat Corbyn, even a disastrous election defeat was worth it? Allowing the Mail open season on Corbyn and not standing up to it? These are the very people who now blame the left for divisions and bleat about unity at any price. Well let me tell you, it'll be a while, and at least some of us want to see principle re-established in the party and a leadership that is not constantly behind the curve and which only seems to know how to behave expediently and divisively. That's where most of the effort to unify the party needs to come from, and by effort I don't mean sacking lefties. If Labour can't be a left-wing party, and I don't mean hard left, then it may as well not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:40 AM

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the wee fuckin’ donkey!

No, for fuck’s sake, I’m not talking about ‘backing Starmer’ - that’s the spin you keep putting on it. Please stop the spinning. I’m saying that the Party and the needs of those it exists to serve are far more important than Personalities. When Corbyn was the leader, despite my own personal view that he was just about the worst possible man for the job - weak, ineffectual, a lousy public speaker, made mincemeat of by May and Johnson at PMQs Wednesday after Wednesday, incapable of putting the smears and slurs against him to bed - I spoke up for him and, when he was under attack from within the Party I said exactly the same things that I’m saying now, that the in-fighting should stop and the Party should pull together to defeat the Tories. And if that means supporting a leader who’s not my particular preference, so be it - I did it for Corbyn, and I’ll do it no matter who the leader is. Party before Personality.

The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior, they couldn’t care less about ‘Becky’ and ‘Angie’ (come off it with the faux-familiarity Steve, don’t be a pillock - you don’t know them, never even met them, and in public it’s Rebecca and Angela). What they care about is the difference a Labour government would make to their miserable lives - any Labour government is better than the Tories unless you’re made of money.

So please stop the bullshit, stop the spinning of my words, and think about the people for whom - unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda - having a Labour government instead of the permanent Tory rule that Labour Party civil-war will subject them to could be a dream come true.

But I guess you’ll only hear what you want to hear, see what you want to see - leopards don’t change their spots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:35 AM

OK no one blames the Scots and a loss of seats would imblance the rest of England but people over here ask, "Will there be a new border?"
There hasn't been one since Hadrian's wall.
I suppose since its not a done deal its too soon to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:52 AM

That's fair enough, Steve, and I don't guarantee it would work of course. But the alliance I suggested is very short term - maybe as short as a month. It has one purpose only: to change from FTP to a proportional system. Thereafter, as I said, there would be another election and in that you could vote for whoever you wished. You would not be tied to LibDem for four or five years.

We all recognise, I think, that without the Labour party reunifying somehow, the Tories will stay in power long term under FPTP. Some want the Labour party to unify to the left, some to the centre. So it does not unify at all while that argument goes on. What way out of the impasse do you suggest that recognises not everyone will agree with one preferred idea of what Labour should be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:25 AM

"The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP."

That would condemn me to voting for the LibDems round here. I did that six times in general elections to try to keep out the Tory. Last time I did it, in 2010, the LibDem candidate's repeated (ad nauseam) mantra was "Don't let the Tories in here." Well whaddya know. He got elected, and they ditched their principles and went into an unholy and opportunistic alliance with the Tories, which he supported. Progressive party my arse. It's a cliche, but the LibDems showed themselves to be a bunch of naive Tory-lites, and the one delicious thing about the 2015 election was that they got their just deserts. I don't wish to be disenfranchised via the unholy alliance you're suggesting, thanks. In fact, the first thing I'd do is tear up my membership card.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:14 AM

Thing is, John, you've laid your cards on the table time and time again to tell us what a disaster you think Corbyn and his ilk have been. So what you're really saying is, come on, lefties, ditch your principles and throw your lot in with the (establishment Tory-lite) centre of the party. Be seen to be evaporating. Ain't happening. This party grew from working-class trade union roots and it's the Blairs/Browns/Milibands/Starmers who are wanting to usurp the party name and ditch that history, as if it's some kind of embarrassment. I joined this party when Jeremy Corbyn became leader because I thought I could see a resurgence of what Labour should really be about, a left-wing party of principle (I'm still clinging on in hope...). If you want an anodyne centre party, join the LibDems. Oh, and let's not forget what happened to them when they went for "unity" with the Tories. Or the SDP when they went for "unity" with the Liberals...

And I'm still waiting to have it explained to me how suspending Jeremy Corbyn on spurious grounds, sacking Becky Long-Bailey on spurious grounds and scapegoating Angie Rayner are going to advance the cause of party unity. I ask for the third time: who really ARE the splitters in the party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:09 AM

Becky would have fitted the bill but we missed that bus :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:59 AM

But if starmer was best choice from a mediocre bunch;

who is there to oust him and inspire the whole nation...?????

.. ie, not just middle class elite student union politics 'socialists'...


Is there a ready and waiting down to earth charismatic potential leader,
who can win sufficient 'working class' votes back from the populist right ...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:21 AM

Agreed, John. The Labour party needs to become electable. You seem to be saying that is by getting behind Starmer. I disagree and, by the performance last Thursday, it seems that the electorate prefer Johnson to Starmer. How will getting behind the current leader halp that situation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:03 AM

No Dave, I’m talking about the LP, not Johnson. I’m not taking one side, I’m not pitting R v. L, no matter how others try to spin what I say. I’m saying that everyone, no matter their ‘leaning’, needs to get together to unite the Labour Party and make it electable, so that it can rid the country of this foul scourge of Conservative government. Sadly, there seems to be more interest here in student-ideology and an obsession with membership numbers. I’ll say it again and again until certain people get it...

1) Members don’t elect governments, the voting public elect governments. So boasting about membership numbers is nothing more than vanity.

2) The unseemly spectacle of two opposing elements within the party ripping each others’ faces off is unlikely to attract voters to vote Labour, rather the opposite.

3) Unless and until the LP attracts sufficient votes to form a government, it is failing the very people it exists to represent - the poor, the disadvantaged, the disenfranchised. And it is failing those of us who trusted it with our votes.

4) People are putting personalities, together with their rather naive ideology and dogma, before Party, and before the needs of the country. There’s a need for some grown-up old-fashioned pragmatism, the lack of which is risking the Labour Party becoming completely irrelevant.

The Party is bigger than any one member or group of members, and it must be ‘Party before Personality’. Every time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:16 AM

Besides, your comments seem to be echoing a certain mantra that some have used before. We got more votes and you lost. Get over it. Surely not? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 04:13 AM

Sorry John but following your logic, as Bozzer got more crosses than anyone else, we all need to unite behind him. What you are saying is that the lesser of two evils, ie Tory light as opposed to Tory right, is good. Fair enough, that is your opinion and I can see the logic in it. I would prefer to see the right wing politics currently prevalent across both major parties opposed and I think that can still be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:50 AM

yes good idea dmcg i look at the country i was born in and i thank god i escaped but i still feel so sad


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:48 AM

As expected, it seems like Johnson will be bringing ending the Fixed Parliament Act into the Queens speech. Doing so was a manifesto commitment, so he is perfectly entitled to do that. Like many commentators I think he will call the election in 2023, though the back end of 2022 does not seem impossible. That gives Labour very little time to sort itself out, and a year of squabbles will play into Johnson's hands very nicely.

I go along with John Curtice. The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP. All stand in the next election under one banner of, let's say, "True Democracy". There would be only one candidate from TD in each constituency and there would be one item in their manifesto, namely introducing proportional representation then calling another election once that had been voted for. Thereafter, each revert to their normal parties or reorganise themselves as they see fit. I have ideas how to decide who stands for TD in each ward, and how Parliamentary jobs are allocated, but that is fine detail: it is the broad brush that matters.


I can't see it happening, myself!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:32 AM

Second thoughts...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Government is King!

Not much chance of the third element while the first seems to be more important to some people than the second.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 21 - 03:23 AM

To paraphrase a business-slogan I learned many years ago...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Party unity is King!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 21 - 02:53 AM

Steve, the electorate in the leadership contest reached over 600000 as per the BBC article I linked. That is probably what you saw. As I said to Nigel, mistakes such as that matter little compared to deliberately misleading the country for your own benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:47 PM

I didn't ever believe that all those people suddenly joined, Nigel. I should have said that the numbers rose to... And whether I was a bit optimistic or not kind of depends how, who and when you count. I was in the ballpark and I can be no further arsed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:35 PM

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.
Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.
I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members.


It doesn't even make a claim for 600,000+ members (rather than the claim of 600,000 new members) as it goes on to say (about the figure of 610,753) that: Labour says checks are still taking place on all new members to weed out non-party supporters. That is presumably why they quote the figure as 'potential'.

As to it being pointless correcting Steve. If the original statement is allowed to stand then others can claim that they read it somewhere, and claim it as fact. Which is what Steve also appears to have been doing (mistakenly).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:03 PM

Yes, it was careless of me to say "joined the party." A quick shufty around found this (Rowena Mason in 2019 in the Guardian):

"Figures from the party’s latest accounts show it had 518,659 members in December 2018, down from a peak of 564,443 the previous year."

I heard 600,000 somewhere but I can't find it, and I'm not inclined to spend more time on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:44 PM

...and before you start rabbiting on about the importance of accuracy you need to bear in mind that Steve probably made a mistake on an insignificant internet forum that makes no difference whatsoever to peoples livelihoods. Compare that to the record of your hero.

The lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations of Boris Johnson


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:39 PM

You didn't look very hard, Nigel.

Labour leadership: Huge increase in party's electorate

From the BBC article - Labour received more than 160,000 applications to vote in its leadership contest in the final 24 hours of registrations, the party has said.

The number of applications via trade unions more than doubled and the number of party members and £3 registered supporters also rose.

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.


Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.

I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members. There was a massive surge and the membership has now declined under Starmer.

As ever, if all you can do is nit pick at flawed wording, your argument is lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:17 PM

Steve: 600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader.
Is there any evidence of that claim?
Nowhere that I can find ever shows the recent total membership in that range, let alone a sudden surge of that amount.
According to The House of Commons As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members,

I can see a prediction of total membership of that value in The New Statesman : Labour membership is on course to hit 600,000, a half-century peak, after a second successive day in which more than 100,000 people have applied to become party members. That does seem to imply that 600,000 may have been the membership 50 years ago though.

And according to The Guardian The membership level had fallen in 2019 from 518,659 at end of 2018 to a figure which remained above 500,000 as at August 2019


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 21 - 03:47 PM

I'll just add that some folks hold the opinion that Nicola Sturgeon
might have been a formidable leader of the Labour party.

Who knows what positive benefits she could have achieved for all of Britain if she wasn't so parochially obsessed...???


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