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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

The Sandman 10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM
The Sandman 10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM
Rain Dog 10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM
DMcG 10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM
DMcG 10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM
The Sandman 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM
Rain Dog 09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM
The Sandman 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM
DMcG 09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM
DMcG 09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM
mayomick 08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM
DMcG 08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM
The Sandman 08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM
DMcG 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM
robomatic 07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM
Rain Dog 07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM
DMcG 07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 20 - 02:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 20 - 02:03 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 20 - 01:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Dec 20 - 12:41 PM
The Sandman 02 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM
The Sandman 02 Dec 20 - 07:59 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Dec 20 - 07:41 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 20 - 06:55 AM
SPB-Cooperator 02 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM
Raggytash 02 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM
Donuel 02 Dec 20 - 06:24 AM
The Sandman 02 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 20 - 05:09 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM

how about blaming denis skinner? he was anti europe, however he was not in a posituion to grant a referendum, nor was corbyn nor was trump nor was nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM

ridiculous, Cameron is the person who is responsible he gave the refendum, why not blame jeremy corbyn or trump


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM

There are of course 2 sides involved in these negotiations. The EU were not happy with the decision for us to leave but once the decision was made they let us get on with it.BUT they are.mindful of the fact that they will not want to make it look to other members, that leaving the EU "might" appear not to involve too many negatives.Some other EU members may well be waiting to see how we get on once things settle down. We are living in uncertain times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM

previous decade
I meant 'previous century'. How time flies!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM

I agree. Nigel is quite capable of defending himself if he wishes. Equally, he is quite entitled not to get into an argument if that is his preference.

Blame and responsibility are subtly different. We all have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions, and should not object to being asked to account for them (though we are entitled to ignore the request.) So it is fair to expect people to take responsibility for how they voted. If they agreed that some disruption might occur, for example, then if it does they should be willing to say they accepted and still accept that as part of the necessary price.

Blame, though, is harder. I anticipate hearing quite a few Brexiteers saying over the next year that the problem was all in how it was implemented: A no-deal Brexit, for example, could have been decided at the start of the transition, giving every business a year or more to adapt to address any disadvantages and ready themselves to take advantage of any benefits. It would have given time to recruit border staff, implement and test IT systems and all the rest. This is an argument familiar from the previous decade about whether communism was 'never properly tried'. While I think no-deal a dreadful outcome, I can see some merit in that argument. If you were going to end up in no-deal, there were better paths to get there, and those choices were made by governments, not voters.

Equally if you are aiming for a deal, you had many alternatives. Using some of the conventional game theory labels, you could have played the stag hunt, rather than chicken.   We opted for chicken, which typically has the most extreme outcomes - you tend to win big or lose big. Guess where we look as if we are heading?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM

Dick, I'm not being rude to Nigel. I am saying that because he voted for Brexit it is his fault we are leaving the EU. Ok, I know there were many more who voted the same but as he choses to be their voice on here he is accepting the responsibility. As to helping political discussion or solving anything. Really? Do you think that an obscure minority music forum has ever helped to solve any of the world's political issues?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM

If Nigel thinks anyone here is being rude to him,
presumably he's tough enough to tell us himself...???

It's a bit like when Ake popped up today [before his post was deleted]
to lecture us on what Nick Dow [or Mr Dow, as Ake smarmily referred to him] was really trying to say..

My polite reply to him was:

"Since you appear to have developed mind reading powers since we last met,
that could come in very handy...

Though I'm sure Mr Dow is more tha capable of talking for himself,
rather than have you voice his inner thoughts on his behalf...???
"...

Anyway..

Brexit last minute drama deadline negotiations..

what a pathetic farce...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM

Cameron should take responsibilty, he took the political gamble.,, then to a lesser extent Farage and Johnson
being rude to another mudcat member who supports brexit does not help political discussion or solve anything,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM

and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

There seems to be a few members of that group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM

So, Dick, who is going to take responsibility for Brexit? Choices are all well and good, as was the power given in the referendum. But with the power to make choices for the entire population comes great responsibilty. Someone needs to accept that responsibility and as Nigel is the only one on Mudcat espousing the benefits of Brexit we can only assume he accepts that responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM

oops.. that last sentence somehow got scrambled between proof reading and submitting...


"and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM

As much as we enjoy friendly bickering banter with our mudcat mate Nigel,
we do know it wasn't only him wot dunnit..

Obviously he has far too many guilty accomplices for us to include them all by name individually..

That just wouldn't be practical..

So we'll just have to settle for acknowledging Nigel,
who is friendly enough to talk to us,
and the known named leaders of the anti political he is an active member of...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

much as i agree, there looks like a massive cock up , it is uncalled for to say that it is nigels fault. Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave

Indeed, but surprisingly recently in some respects. It was still possible in 2009 for an MP to be shamed for buying a Mars Bar on expenses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave. In fact, had it not been for the time and energy wasted on the farcical handling of Brexit I am convinced that we would have been better equipped to handle the virus. So that is also Nigel's fault ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out

Oh, I am sure no blame will be put on that if there is any remote chance of blaming covid-19 instead.

Yes, covid-19 will hit hard. That does not mean Brexit is not a factor if we have problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM

Nigel, had we have remained in the EU and our standard of living had taken a dive due to that, I would have happily joined you in castigating the EU.

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out. It has been pointed out that there will be tough times ahead and even the most ardent Brexiteer has now accepted that.

Until such a time as the losses we will suffer are recovered and we have surpassed our current standard of living I will continue to lay the blame at your door. If it ever happens that we make up for economic, social and cultural losses and then surpass our existing standards you are welcome to say "I told you so". I shall not be holding my breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM

Stop trying to delude yourself - and us. Control is shared by the 28 states, and the bigger your state the more say you have. As one of the biggest states we had plenty of say, including the possibility of vetos over many major proposals. There is no European army because we said no, for example. That doesn't amount to "little or no control" in my book. The fact is, Nigel, that the UK willingly joined the consensus over changes to regulations and EU law almost all the time - because you can't get bad laws past all 28 states. The EU is about consensus, not control. Which is not to say that grievous mistakes, over Greece for example, can't be made...

"As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum."

But it's OK for you to trot out the lies that fooled millions into voting brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum. They were not accepted by the majority of voters then, and I doubt if they would be now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM

Nigel,

I am thinking of taking up archery as a hobby, and I require you to put an apple on your head so I can have a go at sharpshooting. As I have no practice - I last did archery at school in 1978 - I am aware of the risks if I am an inch or two out with my aim. But you need to fully accept those risks.

No ifs, no butts (pun intended).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

Brexit River will turn out to be a creek for most people.Nigel Farage , Boris and a few others will be able paddle their way out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM

..great metaphor..

..a lot of 'em are already dropping dead from disease,
before they even crawl into the punctured leaky rubber dinghies
attempting to cross the treacherous river brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM

Definitely, Nigel. There are those who prepared to let the country take the risks or bear the costs. I would say, though, I see a significant reluctance on their part to elaborate how severe those risks or costs are. Even what they mean by 'short term' is very hard to pin down when they use it phrases like like 'disruption in the short term'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.


Good argument which could be applied to those in Calais looking to make a risky crossing of the channel.
For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM

It'll not be too surprising if a significant number of the 60,000 and rising covid fatalities,
voted yes for brexit...

..that'd take a chunk out of the miniscule majority
looking forward so enthusiastically to leaving the EU..


My sense of humour is too dark sometimes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM

i am sure that not everybody who voted leave, voted for a hard brexit some [i think ] were under the impression that there were options like norway or canada or switzerland , there should be another clearer referendum, this is an important issue and people should know exactly what they are voting for


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM

yes PFR thankyou for that video clip.
mean while Hillary Benn is very quiet is he watching which way the wind is blowing, IS HE waiting for Starmer to destroy himself


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Or to put it less dramatically, all of the costs due to disruption during the few years Rain Dog mentions have to be recovered before you can even think of being better off. If, for example, during that time a long term contract comes up and because of the disruption it goes to another country as supplier, it may be decades before it comes up again so the business concerned (and hence to some extent the UK) is disadvantaged for all that period.

I thought Zoe Williams described it quite well in a recent article

So there emerged two discrete, parallel contexts for the discussion: one completely abstract, in which democracy must be upheld and sovereignty restored; the other completely concrete: who do you sell herring to if you don’t want to eat it, and where on earth do you have an Irish border? Never able to knit those two spheres back together, we had instead this jarring dualism, where we’d talk grace notes in Westminster (take control of our money, borders and laws!), and car plant closures outside Westminster, and those discussions never progressed since they were never informed by one another.

Whether the country thrives or not depends on the concrete: the herrings, the cars, the sheep exports, the services provided and so on. Sovereignty is only really relevant (in trade) to the extent it affects those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM

Unfortunately, Robomatic, many favoured a hard Brexit. Trouble is that they believe this means that the UK will keep all the benefits of being in Europe, be able to keep out Johnny Foreigner and, once again, rule the waves. Boris convinced them that he could achieve this. They believed him. Boris may be the worst prime minister we have ever had but, as a con man, he has no equal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM

Watching an American Public Broadcasting television article about Brexit using the term "Hard Brexit" multiple times.

Some good comments from a British economist including the following cautions regarding Hard Brexit long term fallout:

a smaller England with essentially constricted borders
the Good Friday agreement threatened
diplomatic ill feelings between Europe and the U.K., uncertainty with U.S. relations.

A point that was new to me but probably not to many of you was that the Europeans have a need to not let the U.K. look like it got a great deal, because then further exits become more attractive. And I suppose that U.K. has an interest in keeping Scotland aboard while all this is happening as well.

And I believe many of you feel that Boris favors a Hard Brexit anyway.

Canada and Quebec take notice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK...!!!????? [Wtff for more sensitive folks...]

Not seen this reported on any BBC news...

Labour Suspends Prominent Jewish Activist For Defending Jeremy Corbyn


If this hadn't just turned up on my random youtube feed,
I'd be none the wiser...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM

There are bound to be a few problems as it will take a while to settle down. It will be a few years before we are able to tell if we are better off or not.i don't think we will be but time will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM

Possibly, Dave, but I am prepared to wait a few more days to see how things turn out. If a deal is proposed, there is then the UK Parliament and the EU gauntlets to run. So things don't look good, but we will see soon enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

Looks like crashing out is inevitable. Why am I not surprised.

An economist interviewed on the news said food will likely to be more expensive and not as readily available. Got to look at the bright side I suppose though. Dishwashers will be cheaper.

I hope all those who were fooled by Boris's Bus and Farage's Frauds will be happy washing all those dishes that have not had any food on them :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 02:04 PM

Oh, and 400!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 02:03 PM

We were in The Sportsman at Hayfield and saw they had duck muffin on the menu. You can imagine the conversation.

They did have the classic three plaster ducks on the wall and we wondered if they had already been muffed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 01:20 PM

I've never tried nuckin' a fut, but when I was younger I did enjoy muffin' the mule...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM

Maybe this bloke got it right.

And Dick, maybe you should stop telling people to use their hand. People may think you're an expert at it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 12:41 PM

..a year of covid is tending to bring out the inner conspiracy theorist rebel nutter
in even the previously most sensible folks...

However, all the pre-covid nutters are now completely nucking futs...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM

i wont be touching you


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM

That's fine if you don't touch things that other people will touch after.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 07:59 AM

then dont cough on anyone use your hand, its easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 07:41 AM

Using hand sanitisers whenever I pass one helps with that problem - even if it does dry the skin on my hands. My better half has a bigger problem because of eczema from skin allergies. (does anyone know why we say exma and not exzeema - decades of lazy speaking?). Surely the answer in favour of masks is that if we cough on someone, the droplets have a much higher viral load than if we breath on someone. I still find it ridiculous when people still spout on about masks being impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide. Maybe they are using polythene masks???


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:55 AM

You're a lucky man if you have both tresticles and bjollocks, Dick. Good luck finding a willy warmer man enough to do the job...

I was in the pub and a bloke sidled up to me at the bar, saying, Hey mate, between you and me we have five bollocks. Why, said I, have you only got the one?

I'm not a mask dissenter or an anti-mask campaigner, and I wear them where required at all times, but, loud and proud, I say that masks are probably more bad than good when I see the misuse they are routinely put to. Wot a lot of people don't realise, when they feel all safe behind their masks and forget all about social distancing, is that not all viruses are inside big sneezy drops that get trapped in the fabric, that virus particles are virtually non-filterable, and that mask wearers who constantly fiddle with the damn things, which is an awful lot of them, probably have a lot more virus on their hands than people who don't wear masks. Yet mask wearing is compulsory whereas hand-washing isn't. You couldn't make it up. Let's stick to the law this time but determine NEVER to let a government control us in this way ever again. Saw a good tweet yesterday which said that I'm not allowed to go to my mum's for tea in her house yet I can have my minge waxed by a total stranger...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM

Viruses are carried in moisture droplet, not methane emissions. Underwear and trousers serve the purpose of **** coverings as masks do as face coverings.

The idea of mass interment is of course ironic, but taking into account the almost certain evidence that the crowds at the football match in Liverpool and the horse races at Cheltenham made the first wave worse than it could have been, gathering in crowds to protest and not wearing face coverings or socially distancing while doing so is irresponsible and has a potential public health risk. The real issues is that the more people someone who is infected comes in contact with, the greater the rate of reinfection. That isn't politics, it is mathematics.

I don't have problems if people want to put themselves at risk, as long as they don't expect help when things go pear-shaped for them - talk to anyone who does mountain rescue as a volunteer or for a living, or RNLI/Coastguard who have to rescue holidaymakers from inflatable toy dinghies. I am concern about people who are cavalier about putting other people at risk.

Restrictions are horrible, but they won't go away while mobs of people flout them just because they don't like being told to take responsibility. Also, if we had a government that faced up to its public health responsivities in a timely manner, then this discussion probably wouldn't even be happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM

Not so Dick, I didn't make any assumptions I responded to your statement:

"if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing."

If anyone was making an assumption it was you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 06:24 AM

Looks like the UK will get the vaccine before the USA


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM

no, its the law, you can be fined for indecent exposure ,it is not breaking the law to make outdoor protests provide you socially distance , it is totalitarian for steve to insist that they all isolate when he does not know anything about them.or whether they are covid free
it interests me to spot potential controllers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 20 - 05:09 AM

Telling me I must wear pants is totalitarian!


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