BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM

It was so arbitrary that there was no general agreement as to when it actually was!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 07:25 AM

DMcG's daughter sounds smarter than some of you codgers, at least in polynomial time. Having an answer is not intelligence as much as having the wisdom to know which questions to ask. IQ is second to EQ or QQ in my book. Be that as it may, Steve, eat some Bran. You seem too full of yourself, as usual. :^}

I have steadfast hope that your UK politics are more sensible than American politics. As criminal conspiracies go I think America is #1.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 07:28 AM

Did Johnson's Poor Behaviour Cost Brexit Breakthrough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:08 AM

Almost certainly, the man is an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM

I'm surprised at you Bonzo, I am sure I am not alone in thinking that you voted for his party and thus allowed him to become PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:29 AM

Give bonz some credit..
he might be a tory, but he's always slagged off dickhead boris...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM

That doesn’t absolve him, it damns him even further. Who in their right mind would vote for a dickhead?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:08 PM

BWM - errmmm.. we might have our own dilemma with that,
if starmer is still Labour leader by the next elections...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:48 PM

Johnson or Starmer....hmmmmm, that’s a difficult one, innit? Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:50 PM

Yeah.. but it's a bit like asking which colour of shit
do you want topping your ice cream cornet...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM

But knowing our luck, Margaret Hodge may even have seized leadership by then...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory. I’m still hoping to live long enough to see a Labour government once more - I’m grown-up enough to realise it may not happen with Starmer in charge, but there’ll be SFA chance if the Party’s lumbered with Corbyn again.

Although, in contradiction of my criticism of Bonzo’s voting choice, I did vote Labour at the GE, even though I had absolutely no faith in the Leader. It’s called ‘Party-Loyalty’ or, put another way, ‘Putting Party Before Personality’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:27 PM

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory, how about james callaghan
quote living memory, what utter bolocks.. how about 1983? backwoodsman youare a master of bullshit1979 general election – 5.3% swing from Labour to Conservative
2010 general election – 5.1% swing from Labour to Conservativ
Boris Johnson delivered the biggest electoral win to the Conservatives since Margaret Thatcher in 1987,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM

I wasn't a Corbynite..

I've never been keen on 'cult of personality'..

I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM

“I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???”

Ha, sorry pfr, it’s Saturday night, FA on Telly, idling my time away on my iPad, bored shitless, I allowed myself the luxury of a bit of chain-yanking! Mea Culpa!

Those are my thoughts exactly. Although, like you, I’m not sure that Starmer’s the right man for the job, but I’m sure that he’s far more acceptable to the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

the person who is dividing the labour party now is Starmer, politically naive and incompetent,the easy way to have got rid of corbyn was make him a peer.Starmer is an idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM

I still can't help suspecting an organised influx of tories
paid the minimal fee to vote Corbyn in as Labour leader...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:12 PM

And I can’t help thinking you could be right, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

I joined the labour party again when Corbyn became leader as did many other left wing minded people, i personally know many folk enthusiasts and performers who did so, none of us are tories,
i have subsequently left the labour party because of starmers political idiocy, PFR you talk uninformed twaddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

...Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics




Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

...PFR you talk uninformed twaddle

What's this, Dick? Do as I say, not as I do? Or does it just depend who is being uncivil?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 04:25 AM

no it is uniformed twaddler , that is not a personal attack it is a fact ,he has no stats to back his statement up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM

I have proven your hypocrisy, Dick. No need for me to go any further as others can now see what you are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:14 AM

I did NOT vote for johnson, I voted for our excellent MP Chris Philp. The other 2 labour MPs for Croydon Central and North are useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:35 AM

hypocrisy? Cameron was responsible for brexit, without a referndum there would have been no vote
When i refer to PFR STATEMENT I am being polite, if i wanted to be rude i would call him a flamer or a troll, but i am being polite.
so i wont call him that, if i had been the silver tongued late departed MGM
i would have called him a vacuous booby, but i try to be a good boy and be polite, like teachers pet, so i restrain myself and say it is uniformed twaddle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:40 AM

you see a personal attack or being rude relates to insulting the person not confirming that what they said was uninformed, and therfore twaddle : silly idle talk : drivel. b : something insignificant or worthless according to the dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:06 AM

I would have thought that saying someone is talking uninformed twaddle counted as 'genteel conversation' in the middle a political thread.

Why not take PFR's idea and run with it. Even with the drop in membership since Starmer took over from Corbyn, the Labour party has more members than the Conservatives, SNP and Lib Dems combined. It could afford to send a few over to swamp the Tories and get a Prime Minister more acceptable to them, albeit* the wrong political colour.


DC

*that bit was for Steve ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:08 AM

here is some evidence that conservative remainers are wait for it, quote
Observer Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence thatConservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:10 AM

Have you nothing better to do Sandman???????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:12 AM

It did not go unnoticed, Doug, though I was initially more interested in the posts prior to yours. Things like that happen to me on a daily basis...However, at this moment in time I have to plan my trip to Morrison's as I have cooking to do, going forward. If you will...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 06:14 AM

Billy Connelly is Infinitely more entertaining!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 08:04 AM

Whatevet, Dick. Same reply to your PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM

Dementure, Dick? Are you saying that he has crazy false teeth? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

Spelling is irrelevant, he's bloody funny!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.
If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:47 AM

He's just being his usual dreadful finger in the ear self!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 09:58 AM

I can't be arsed reading Dick's petty grudge nonsenses yet..

maybe later...

However in the meantime consider this..

tory party has fewer members, but it has international backers with far more financial clout..

Labour membership vote fee was how much per person,
and how carefully vetted was each new voter...???

Corbyn's proposal for candidate, was a surprise gift for the left..

and an even bigger spoiler opportunity for the well funded tory right...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:20 AM

punk folk rocker, a closed mind .
well if you read them you would see that there are stats to back up the fact conservative voters are switching to keir starmer, you have a closed mind.
bad news for bonzoObserver Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence that Conservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM

They will have been the same thousands that travelled all over the country singing Corbyns name.were they conservative infiltrators? what ridiculous twaddle from punk folk rocker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM

“so good, he posted it twice...” :-)

Party members don’t elect their party to government. Voters in General Elections do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:39 AM

Bonzo take note and answer Bckwoodsmans, you elected boris johnson
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:42 AM

yes posted twice.
so that when Punk, opens his eyes he will see the irony of his ridiculous assertion that conservative infiltrators joined the labour party to elect corbyn.
what utter twaddle and unsubstantiated twaddle to boot

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 10:49 AM

it would appear that the conservatives won the last election because there was an electoral pact between farage and the conservatives, furthermore, backwoodsman
you made a statement that you cannot substantiate that corbyn lost the election by the biggest majority in living memory, more unsubstantiated twaddle, both you and punk talk twaddle, check your facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM

"If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)"

Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:20 AM

Take more water with it, Dick, or better still lay off it altogether - it’s making you very nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM

Dick's off on one of his obsessive episodes today..

No amount of rational persuasion will deter him from
willfully misconstruing my actual intended meaning..

His blinkers are yet again set to narrowest tunnel vision...

This was bound to happen when he carries grudges over from earlier in the week...

I should have joined the Labour party as an active member decades ago,
but he is a prime example of what I'd get too frustrated and annoyed dealing with..

I have low patience threshold for needy self indulgent petty egos..

My old mates in the local party are far more tolerant of the dysfunctional 'care in the community'
element of their fellow membership...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:27 AM

Dick - Anyone who cares about what you are best at - music,
would wish you'd spend more of your spare time and energy
updating your youtube channel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM

”Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.”

I thought that’s the condition he has too, Steve. We saw Billy at Sheffield City Hall a few years ago, just before his illness was made public, he was hilarious as usual, but we both commented that he seemed to ‘have summat up’, there were moments when he was clearly having difficulty recalling ‘the next bit’ in his routine. We commented that we thought it might be the last time we see him touring, and so it proved to be.

His swearing might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it doesn’t bother us - we hear far worse in our local market place and shopping mall - but his observations of human behaviour, and his ability to find the humour in human frailty, are brilliant AFAWAC. Others’ may have a different view, and that’s OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 11:47 AM

You can have both, and Parkinson's in its latter stages can lead to dementia. But they are distinctive conditions.