BS: What do you think cults have in common?

Subject: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 04:43 PM

I know sex abuse is prominant in cults but we all have different ideas.
Smart people are not immune. I've seen cults up close and what looks like eye candy is far from it. What is also prominant is deceit.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:05 PM

Donuel, are you by chance referencing "The Vow,"
the documentary exposé of the
NXIUM group?
I have done no more than read reviews of the documentary,
and it sounds really ... stark.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 07:03 PM

"Cult" just means you don't agree with what they believe and do, and there aren't enough of them to use lawsuits or the criminal justice system to shut you up.

Get postmodern about it. The word only makes sense in terms of the power wielded by those who define social categories.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 07:09 PM

Great theory, Jack. Not so in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 08:30 PM

The original post is unfocused, therefore the thread is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:27 PM

National Public Radio is running a Parcast podcast series titled Cults (click).

Jack is right in one sense - one current definition of "cult" is "a group that believes something the speaker doesn't believe," but I think that's a cynical definition. The idea of "cult" is an interesting phenomenon.

I'd venture to describe is as a group of people bound together by an irrational belief, often resulting in bizarre or antisocial behavior. In general, cults seem to be groups of people following an authority figure, and adhering blindly to the leader's teachings and practices.

The podcast series gives some interesting examples.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:02 AM

Following an authoritarian figure, yes, but surely goes beyond that. There must be some kind of visceral response to that figure that recognizes him or her as being superior over all others. There has to be some kind of religious response in some way, I think. Either that the respondents believe that he is sent directly from the Deity or is the Deity itself.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:35 AM

The original post is unfocused, therefore the thread is pointless.
not part of the solution obviously. True to form though.

I was told by a Canadian who lives quite near to the Mennanite community in Ontario that the seemingly benign "back to nature" aura of it all hides some pretty negative practices. All he said was "child abuse". I doubt it was that common, but it was hidden. Are the Mennanites a cult?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 03:48 AM

I think the Mennonites count as a bona fide denomination - they have proper hymnbooks and all.
And show me a church/religion that has not had hidden child abuse at some time or another.
Cults have peculiar attitudes to policing the boundaries between them and the world outside, seeking to prevent members leaving, unless they seek to expel them and cut them off from their friends and relations.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 04:47 AM

You appear to have merely defined organised religions, Joe. You need more. Maybe a charismatic control-freak grooming leader at the helm who is able to justify vile practices to his followers.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 05:01 AM

The separation of children from the family is also a cult practice. So is the act of shunning by cult members against its critics.

A&E has a series on cults and extreme groups like LDFS, Sanctuary church...   HBO has the Vow.

A dominant micro manager is typical but certain militias simply have God and patriotism as their symbolic leader ordering them to use their AK's as a last resort against a tryannical dovernmnt.

Trumpism is a cult imo

Steve I thought you took a vow.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM

I'm trying to rescue you from your silly first post. I'm helping you.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 07:18 AM

Google and read this. What makes a cult a cult?

Holly Meyer [e-mail]
Published 7:10 PM EDT Sep 15, 2016
How can you tell if a group is a cult or not?

After a recent report about a cat-worshipping, end-times group in Middle Tennessee, we asked cult expert Janja Lalich to explain what makes a cult a cult.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 07:59 AM

At the end of the novel The Boys from Brazil (about a Nazi cult cloning Hitler and reproducing the events of his childhood), the one surviving clone is playing. He's making a toy stadium, and dreaming to himself (from my recollection of this long-ago-read book by Ira Levin) of how, if you could get a lot of people together, things could be really good.

And this is the basis of cults. People are out for good, but they also must exclude some other group or groups of people. We're the good people; the others (with differently coloured skin, speaking a different language, worshipping their different gods in different ways, using a different form of transport, of a different sexual orientation from us) are bad. We are put-upon; everyone is against us. It's just not fair. But if we people - the good people - join together (and I think I'll write a song for us about us) we can build the perfect world.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 01:33 PM

If a group does not allow newbies to sleep, it is a cult. (This is not the only criterion.)

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:17 PM

There are Mennonites, and then there are Mennonites. As with almost all religions, different members have different views of their religious practices. Those who tend toward a fundamentalist, literalist, ideological view of the denomination, are the ones likely to get into trouble.

Those who see their faith as more of a cultural and philosophical context, tend to be more open-minded. Apparently, Mr. Shaw understands only the former.

I used to live in Fresno, California, home of a large Mennonite population with a college. These are Mennonites who are more philosophical, and the college has fostered some serious scholarship. Mennonites are quite ardent pacifists, and do a lot for the cause of peace and social justice worldwide. The Mennonites in Fresno were generally conservative in dress, but very few of them followed the severe lifestyle and dress that is practiced by more conservative Mennonites. I found the Fresno Mennonites to be delightful people who enjoyed intelligent discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:43 PM

I think most modern, secular definitions of the word "cult" include the notion of exploitation. Groups that promise recruits spiritual rewards in exchange for abandoning their pre-conversion friends and family and handing over all their assets -- they're cults. Groups that work really, really hard to convince members that their salvation depends on doing things that are morally repugnant or actually illegal -- they're cults.

Mennonites are Anabaptists with a communal tradition, and lots of them live in southwestern Ontario. I see them almost every day; they range from the very pious Old Order folks who spurn electricity, automobiles and even buttons on their clothes to the teenaged girls who work at my favourite garden centre, who wear tee-shirts and shorts and little starched muffin-cup caps pinned over their plaited hair. Typical Mennonite businesses are closely related to agriculture and the home: they sell food, or nursery plants, or animal feed, or furniture they build themselves in the shop out back. Mennonites are also very big on charity; the local United Way is headed by a Mennonite (who happens to be married to the woman I play tunes with), and most of the local relief organizations are organized and run by Mennonites.

Oh, and Mennonites don't proselytize -- if you want to be a Mennonite, you pretty well have to be born or marry into a Mennonite family. They would not chuck you out if you showed up at the Mennonite church on Sunday, but you would be a visitor for a Very Long Time.

Cults proselytize.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:49 PM

My boss once wrote on my appraisal that I was becoming a cult. I don't know how she got the job seeing as she couldn't even spell cult...

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 05:03 PM

If I wanted a Google answer I would seek one. I wanted to know how this community thinks about such things and several people had a different take that was thought provoking. People like Jack, Penny and others

Working without a salary is another common factor in cultism.
Paying fees for social and prestige promotions within the cult is a dead giveaway.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 05:43 PM

You should try Google and Wikipedia more often, Donuel. Discussions are far more productive if they're based on facts. Pure opinion is more-or-less worthless - it has to be grounded in something to have value.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 05:58 PM

Now really, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 06:10 PM

Best post in thread, Dave. I'm pissed off that you were more brave than me in putting it that way... ;-)

Nah then, Joe. I did not intend the pejorative in that post, just saying as I was that you had unintentionally defined organised religions. I'm no aficionado of the latter, as you know, but they are most decidedly not cults. I did say in the reply to your post what more was needed than you'd said to define a cult, and I also gave you something to google in a separate post. Perhaps I understand a little more, and you understand a little less, than you think...

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 06:31 PM

A cult is a larval sect.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 06:52 PM

There are some perfectly good definitions in Google and Wikipedia, and the people who've contributed to them are probably smarter than any one of us.
Cults are about control. They're about power, and the beliefs aren't the main thing - they're excuses.
It may be simplistic, but I tend to look at what happens to people who question, or what happens to people who leave, or try to.

...and if sleep deprivation is a sign that an organization is a cult, consider every military's basic training (that I'm aware of). But you can ask questions, and you can leave.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 10:00 PM

Dave maybe your boss was trying to spell clutz without a k?

I was surprised that the Jehova witness' are such a nefarious cult.
I've seen cult members distance or dispose of books that could be antithetical to their holy book or written cult rules.
Human tribalism is very prone to cultism. Insistance that even the way people speak or think can be condemned so that independant thought is percieved as an enemy of the people by folks who consider themselves the masters of the cult. Jeeze there's not any of those folks here, are there? If there are, they are best ignored since they do not change. They may think they are traveling a bumpy road but the truth is their own permanent personality, like oblong wheels on their car, are the source of the bumps they feel.
Cults imo are the birthplaces of conspiracy theories.
Champions of the greatest BS is nationalism as well as religion.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 10:25 PM

As ever, bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 11:25 PM

ignored

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:38 AM

Cults[to some extent] attract those who wish to control and those who wish to be disciples.
Mudcat to some extent, is a case in point.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:44 AM

defintions of cult.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.

   

2.
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 03:08 AM

Is a migrant labour fruit farm a cult?

How about a prison?

The children's care division of a social work department?

A pyramid sales operation?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 04:16 AM

The social work department depends on the department. The group that took children from Orkney on the grounds that the Quaker (and other) parents were a child abusing cult had characteristics of a cult themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 11:20 AM

Well, I was going to speculate,
Is the Kennedy family a cult,
but it occurred to me that my question is different than that ...
there were a few generations of people who idolized the Kennedy family
and that is a different question.

This past week, in the Massachusetts state primary,
a Kennedy youngster named for Joe Kennedy with roman numeral III
was defeated in a race for Democratic candidate for Congress.
Defeats happen every year,
but this is the first such defeat for a Kennedy
and it is making national news.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 11:26 AM

Xtianity started off as a cult. Then it got more members and was a sect of judaism. Now it's a scourge in its own right, to wit, a religion.

Like I said, a larval sect.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 12:23 PM

It would be helpful if we kept the useful word "cult" to its generally-accepted quite narrow definition. Charmion has it right. And do the read the piece by Janja Lalich in the Tennessean that I mentioned yesterday. You may not agree with everything she says but the piece at least puts us in the ballpark The major religions are not cults and political parties/"Trumpism" are not cults. Jehovah's Witnesses do not belong to a cult. There is far more to a cult than something you find distasteful or with which you vehemently disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:06 PM

Well there's Donald Rump, he's a bit of a cult !

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 03:30 PM

John, you misspelled that.
What Charmion and Steve (and I) said.
It's not a "cult" because it's small, or unpopular. It's about the control freakery.

Christianity was never a cult. Scientology, I think, was/is. And that Jim Jones shit. Sun Myung Moon, and Heaven's Gate, and other things I'm not aware of.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM

Yes,it is intriguing.I see and watch behaviour, the people that delight in telling others what to do, that volunteer to control others
Cults have this in common, Someone at the top who exploits other members of the cult
FOR EXAMPLE the leader of the Rajneesh AND HIS MANY Rolls Royces.
But then there are some people who wish to believe in something, who seem happy to be exploited, and those people who delight in being the adminstrators of the gurus orders

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:36 AM

A wide segue here: to The Sandman: you mentioned the Rajneesh. After he was deported and the group disbanded their place was put up for sale. I and some friends went over to have a look. I have a fairly large tolerance for eccentricity but I can say that the atmosphere was the strangest I have ever felt. It was churning, chaotic, unbound, untied to anything solid. I can't even describe it.
.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:48 AM

I visited one of his joints at an open weekend, the food was very good, and it was well organised but at the same time it was defintely a cult of the personality, fortunately mudcat has not gone that far, yet.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:51 AM

Power corrupts but absplute power corrupts absolutely

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/qanon-gop/

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 09:02 AM

Xtianity absolutely started as a cult, then was a jewish sect, and is now a religion. Read the history of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 10:38 AM

Unfortunately, there isn't much historical evidence that the leader of your supposed cult actually existed at all. He is supposed to have riled the Romans big time, but there isn't a single completely convincing mention of him in contemporary Roman writings, of which there are many, just a handful of hazy references to a chap who might or might not have been Jesus. Still, it makes a good yarn, and it must be true because it's in the bible, and the Bible SAYS it's true... However, somebody started it and it was found disagreeable by many, and it got a few chaps into big terminal trouble. But that isn't enough for us to call it a cult.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 10:55 AM

Cults regard the cult with the closest resemblance to their own cult as more dangerous than the evil they set themselves up to combat

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM

There was no historical jesus but that did not stop the cult that gew up to be Xanity from forming.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 04:15 PM

I did not say definitively that there was no historical Jesus. Don't get me in trouble with Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 04:53 PM

Steve, careful, he might throw holy water at you

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 06:27 PM

Joe is devious but harmless and should be hailed for his organizational skills and music historian expertise. His skill is that of a scribe and not an editor. While ultimate communication is that of music he is not astute in politics or independant creative thought. In other words if Leonardo D'Vinci was his contemporary they would not be friends. Joe would take the side of the church, and as its disciple could betray Lenny. The saga of child abuse in the church still seems murky to me.
Rules were broken and posed quite a problem for Jou who is about rules.

A cult can be big or small. Just because the holy church is big doesn't mean it isn't a cult of BS. They have had time to perfect their craft.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 06:43 PM

Take no notice of that shite, Joe. I merely made a joke!

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 07:28 PM

Don, maybe leave going after religions you don't like, or people you don't like, and answer the original question. What do cults have in common? I still think it's control. There are other factors, but most of them are ways the control freakery present.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 09:57 PM

Apparently, I was wrong about the not being a cult if it's small or unpopular thing. The definition I found on line is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister."

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 02:13 AM

The principles of Christianity are good ones as are the principles ofCommunism , the problem has been some of the people who have infiltrated and used christianity to exercise control, the same goes for Communism
The Spanish inquisition joe stalin and mao have much in common they all believed the end justifies the means

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 04:39 AM

Being postmodern about cultism as Jack said allows for big or small, good or bad and old or new cults. While its 4 AM I am thinking about how the clever checks and balances of the US constitution has shown that it has not been cult proof lately.
A bona fide cult as opposed to a religion my be that a religion is accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:27 AM

Then give me an example of a good cult.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:30 AM

The point of a postmodern perception of the term is not to expand its applicability. It's to recognize that it's a categorization used to exercise social control. The only thing "cults" really have in common is that they challenge hegemonic power.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:55 AM

A good cult. Bruno Groeling. Circle of friends check it out Steve

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 06:14 AM

Well at least that organisation doesn't militate against real medicine, but to claim that a setup that preaches spiritual healing is "good" is, at the very least, moot. In other ways it doesn't fit the concept of a cult. It all seems a bit voluntary and laissez-faire. That's good, but maybe it uncultifies the club somewhat.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 06:48 AM

Steve, it actually works , i have seen the effects of their spirtual healing, I am an independent observer and do not do the einstellen or take part in it, but i have seen something that i would not have believed possible,if you had asked me 3 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 07:39 AM

The Bruno Groening story was unknown to me but it turns out he was a contemporary of Edgar Cayce also a 'healer'. Unlike a cult I would catagorize this as phenomenology. However as a hypnotist I am biased that the phenomena respondsible was not a person but a mental activation of healing or relief. That being said it leaves many unanswered questions.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 10:01 AM

A friend of mine got involved in the Edgar Cayce thing - it was part of the local Spiritualist church. He had schizophrenia but might well have survived if had not been for those murdering cunts prising him completely loose from reality. He ended up committing sucide by drinking phenol. It took him hours to die with his guts burned away.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 10:06 AM

The real world is magic enough.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 11:15 AM

The only thing "cults" really have in common is that they challenge hegemonic power.

No, I'd challenge that cult leaders are attempting to take that hegemonic power, and more, onto themselves regarding their victims, aka followers who are usually fleeced.

Jim Jones comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 11:42 AM

Schizophrenia is an exhausting painful disease. Edgar Cayce died in 1945. If you suspected the spiritualists of removing medication or deluding your friend further they could be tried at minimum for negligent homocide or manslaugter. I found that only medication had a positive effect for schizophrenia. A scientific non religious application of hypnosis is minimaly effective if at all. In an aside would rather see a shaw of old than a fading athiest with magical thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 11:49 AM

Um, what "principles of Christianity are good ones"...?

Golden rule... Predates Xianity by millennia.

Ditto Love thy Neighbor.

Most of the others are divisive, and otherwise suck, like Preach the gospel, kill the infidel, sex is sinful, you are a wretch, women are sinful, and so on.

But anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 12:02 PM

Morality the concept goes back to ancient Greek philosophers long before the biblical discussion and the xtian attempted appropriation.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 12:50 PM

Mrrzy, those "divisive" negatives are not the teachings of Christ. Any religion, or cult, or whatever, can be twisted into a power play by those so inclined. Find Christ's teachings stripped of all the later interpretations, and most are good. I won't buy the "pie in the sky" and the putting up with adversity so you can stay alive stuff. There's a time to put up with crap, and a time to fight it. Back in the day, I don't think it was as possible to protest. Not that it's easy now, but you usually don't get nailed to a cross.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 03:08 PM

Disparage not lest ye be disparidged, or something like that. No one will be educated by any historic examples of religious over reach here.
Independant thought and self knowledge is enough said and best kept to ourselves. We have enough of a religious war going on right now over slavery is in the bible and BLM.
I tuned in the Kentucky Derby and it to has become politicized. It is heavily armed. Jeesh.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 03:15 PM

No-one has mentioned spiritualists removing medication, etc. I've heard of a few nutters who think that diluting cheap salts to nothing is better than real medicine and that rubbing arnica on yourself cures everything, but they are generally not cultish types.

Agree with your post, Jeri.

Why are some of you refraining from typing the word "Christianity"? I seem to recall someone who insisted on calling God "G*d." Is it to do with fear of using the Almighty's name, or are you just being a bit lazy?

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 04:47 PM

Bruno Groening has no connection whatsoever with Edgar Cayce.Itake exception to Jack Campin remarks which insinuate all spiritual healers try to cure Schizophrenia. Bruno Groening does not advocate any such thing
A PASTE FROM WIKI, the last line describes it as a commercial cult, as i understand its only commercial aspect is to cover expenses not to make a profit.no Gröning (May 30, 1906 in Danzig – January 26, 1959 in Paris) was a German mystic who gave lectures on faith healings. He was active in Germany in the 1940s and 1950s after World War II.
Contents

    1 Teachings
       1.1 Tuning in to divine energy
       1.2 Power of thought and faith
       1.3 Gröning's ideas about himself
       1.4 Other teachings
    2 Life
    3 Reception
    4 Following
    5 References
    6 External links

Teachings

Gröning said that his ideas were not a new teaching or religion, but rather an ancient knowledge that had been lost, saying that people had forgotten "the most important thing", that there is a higher power or force that is available to help people.

At the center of his teachings was the importance of love, both for God and for others, saying "A human being is a creature of Love. What’s created in love can live only in Love. Love is God!"[citation needed]

Gröning regarded health (rather than illness and disease) as the natural state of all living things and asserted that one can maintain health and heal from illness by absorption of a Divine life force that he called "heilstrom". which translates into English as "healing wave" or "healing stream".
Tuning in to divine energy

To connect with and receive this energy, Gröning taught a technique he called "einstellen" (German for "tuning in"). He said that human beings were like batteries that used energy. To maintain health, a person needed to daily renew themselves by tuning into the healing wave.[1] The practice of einstellen consists of sitting in an upright position with arms and legs uncrossed and palms facing upwards. He stated that it was very important for the back to be straight and to not have any kind of backrest if possible. Inwardly the practice consists of having the wish to receive the heilstrom, having faith that healing is possible, and then focusing on the body, observing the sensations and feelings thereof.

He told people to "take on health" and that in this one regard, in regard to healing that it was permissible, even necessary to be selfish in a manner, that is, to focus on oneself.

Gröning believed that when a person tunes into the healing stream that healings can occur spontaneously or slowly, depending on variables such as the quantity of life force flowing through the body, accelerated during "einstellen". Sometimes the symptoms may worsen or increased pain is experienced, before a healing occurs. Gröning called this occurrence regelungen (German for "regulation") and stated that it is sometimes a necessary part of the healing process.[2]
Power of thought and faith

Gröning emphasized the importance of not thinking about negative things, especially dwelling on an illness one was hoping to heal, in maintaining a positive attitude and having faith, especially the faith that healing was possible. Gröning said that, “Thoughts are energies which will come true! If now you take up the firm intent in your mind to regain your health and the belief that this is possible, with God’s help, you have built up the right mental attitude for healing to begin.” In his teachings, he emphasized that negative thinking and dwelling on problems interferes with the healing process.

Gröning often stated that people needed to "Trust and believe--the Divine Power helps and heals." He went so far as to say that the act of having faith in the divine, or in healing, is an essential part of the healing process.
Gröning's ideas about himself

Gröning's concept of himself was that he was an "appointed person", given the task and capacity to help people by God. He spoke of himself also as a "mediator" and a "transformer", in terms of his role and ability to help people connect with the healing stream. He never took credit for the healings, saying that he was only an instrument and servant of God and that it was God who accomplished healing, not himself.

He said often that he was calling humanity to the "Great Reversal" or "Great Turnaround" - to live a life connected to the divine and to live in harmony with nature. "The sole purpose of my deeds and workings is to guide all people on this earth once again onto the right path, onto the divine path. This is the great reversal."
Other teachings

The particular religion people followed was not considered important by Gröning; rather, what was important was that people had a type of spiritual or religious orientation, saying "To be connected with God, that is all." Gröning spoke of God as the father of all people, who sends help and healing through the "healing stream" regardless of their religion or nationality. He encouraged people to strengthen their connection with whatever faith or denomination they adhered to, and to practice their faith or religion with more diligence, saying "It makes absolutely no difference how the person finds God; the main thing is, that he finds God!“
Life

Gröning had no formal medical training. After working as a carpenter and pursuing some other occupations, he was conscripted during World War II. After being drafted, he stated that he would not kill another human being and came close to being executed for this stance at a court martial. Later, he was made a prisoner of war in Russia; he argued with his captors for better conditions in the prison.[3] Gröning came to public attention in 1949. In Herford, the father of a young boy named Dieter Hulsmann, claimed that Gröning had healed his son of muscular dystrophy and told many people of his belief. News of this story circulated and soon crowds gathered in front of the Hulsmann residence, seeking healing.[4] Soon newspapers began covering the story, which drew larger crowds of up to 5,000 people.

As he traveled around Germany, Austria and Switzerland he would often draw similar size and larger crowds. In September 1949, up to 30,000 people daily came to the city of Rosenheim to see him. Once again, newspapers ran stories about him, even printing entire special editions about the gatherings there.

Gröning died at the age of 52 of stomach cancer.


Media coverage of Bruno Gröning was mixed, with contradictory reports. Some called Gröning a "miracle doctor", others "charlatan."

Gröning faced many legal challenges. In many towns he was forbidden to heal or speak to people. Reasons for this varied. One charge brought against him was that he was practicing medicine without a license. At other times officials were concerned about the large crowds that gathered.[5] He went on trial twice. He was unable to take part in the second trial because he was undergoing surgery at the time.
Following

Various groups continue to promulgate Gröning's teaching, including the Circle of Information, the Bruno Groening Trust, the Bruno Groening Friends, the Association for the Advancement in Germany of Spiritual and Natural - Psychological Foundations for Living, the Association for Natural Spiritual Living, the Bruno Gröning Circle of Friends and Help and Healing Sessions.

Gröning founded the Association for the Advancement in 1958 to replace the Gröning Association. The Circle of Friends was founded in 1979 by Grete Hausler, an Austrian school teacher who worked closely with Gröning. The Circle of Information was created by Thomas Busse, who has written a number of books about Gröning and directed the documentary film The Gröning Phenomena. Help and Healing Sessions is an association of independent Groening groups and hosts online meetings.

The Bruno Gröning Circle of Friends was listed as a commercial cult in an official 1997 report by the Berlin Senate Committee.[

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 04:58 PM

"G-d" is a Jewish thing.

Not wanting to spell out the name of Christ seems to predate the Gospels. Various monograms and the fish symbol (used instead of a written name) are the oldest of all Christian signs - even older than any form of the Cross.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:18 PM

Thats interesting and fits into my hypnosis paradigm.

I erroneously thought people would have fun with recounting the bizarre extreme beliefs and actions by cults which are as prolific as they are diverse.

However Healing is a highly motivated purpose that has anticipation and expectation.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:41 PM

Lazy, in my case. One character is easier than 6.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 05:54 PM

The Guardian style guide forbids the use of euphemistic shortenings or asterisks. The paper would want to see you saying fuck, cunt or bastard only in limited contexts, direct quotes for example. F*ck, c*nt and b*st*rd are unacceptable. Either say it like it is or find another word. I rather like things such as b*ast*ard. Cheers for the honest confession, Mrrzy! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 08:12 PM

I don't read pasted Wiki stuff from people who are too lazy to write their own summary. Never heard of Groening, and if somebody who knows about them both finds resemblances to Cayce, I'll take their word for it.

Jacques Lacan seems to have had a similar success record to Caycean spiritualism in its therapeutic dimension. Psychoanalysis in general has had no great unambiguous triumphs, but Lacan seems to have built his towering monument of gibberish on top of a mountain of corpses. He totally failed to help anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 01:25 AM

Jack. your attitude show you like to prejudge things. who on this forum knows about both and finds a resemblance to Cayce?.
you are ignorant [unknowing] about Bruno Groening yet you make judgement, you remind me of the sort of ignorant gombeen who would dismiss transendental meditation because Scientologists use auditing.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 02:08 AM

Flute is more apt than gombeen, my apologies Jac, thou are only dishonest intellectually

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 07:34 AM

There are hundreds of different names and brands for hypnosis.
The nature of our brain and similar processes is at the heart of phenomena. Call it what you want but a 30% positive effect can pass for much more in a crowd.
The church calls it Mass and the Army calls it guided imagery.

My favorite Hypnosis Journal

It always comes down to the agenda for the practictioner and the independance for the subject. The Jesuit church saw my hypnsis practice as a threat and made their own hypnosis clinic that was not non religious. In fact I had no interest in dispariging church practices.

Even the CIA was interested in what I was up to for reasons that were positively evil at the time.

I see history itself as the triumph and failures of hypnotic practice, but thats to be expected.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 08:08 AM

btw the CIA had recently had their hypnosis specialist in murder pass away and were recruiting with 3 people who were all freaking idiots. I of course said no 3 times which resulted in CIA revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mysha
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 10:02 AM

Hi,

Well, a question like that brings to mind the definition that One man's cult is another man's religion. (Hm, that makes me wonder whether any cults self-identify as "cult".)

But back to the question: What do we/I believe cults have in common? Well, I don't know what the cat herd believe, but for me: As far as I know, all cults have people. I think that would be multiple persons, and being more than one person it/they would have a shared culture. It need not be, originally, a culture that's exclusively theirs. Minne Simens of Wytmarsum was mentioned, and all he wanted was for Christians to behave more like, well: Christians. It was only later that differences from Christians in general came into existence.

On the other hand, while there are cultures that include Christian fanaticism in their definition of a cult, that's not a common trait of all cults. E.g., what would such a requirement say about people who belong to the other 70% of the world? But that does bring us back to "One man's cult is another man's religion.", in that the members of a cult represent a minority viewpoint. If they represented a majority, they would be considered normal, but they are considered a cult for not belonging to that majority. I'm be tempted to translate that as the members to believe they are the chosen vessel. Being culturally a Christian, I'm too close to be able to determine whether the culture of any cult tells its members that they are nothing special, or worse.

So, I guess that's about it: A cult has people, a culture, and a minority viewpoint, and it's likely its members believe they are the chosen vessel. Other than that, it has non-members that brand them a cult. I guess that's about it.

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 10:03 AM

You don't half talk bollocks at times.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 10:04 AM

Er, that was aimed at Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 10:11 AM

Well, Mysha, it's been said a couple of times that cults generally have charismatic, controlling leaders with vile motives. I'd add something like that to your list of characteristics. Incidentally, Christian religions often tell their members that they're nothing special. We're all miserable wretches, born with sin and in need of salvation. I didn't accept that, so I left. There were no repercussions to my butting out. It's not the same with a lot of what we might call cults.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 06:10 PM

There are few things as boring as doing multiple relaxation hypnosis inductions every day. To my credit I only fell asleep in the process twice in twenty years. Add CIA stumble Klutzes and the mundane had a touch of action adventure. Perhaps I didn't return thier aptitude and employee questionaires quickly enough so to demonstrate their non complience with any laws they sent in a clean up crew I never saw.
In the process of of collecting the paperwork they disrupted my alert neighbors by ransacking my car and apartment. They had called the local police who didn't even interview me. The neighbors were milling about behind the row of early century manions that were converted to apartments but I didn't feel like explaining the implausible. They came back once more probably since they didn't find anything and after I got a glimpse when I suddenly felt hot and dizzy and hit the floor. I don't know what it was, but it felt like intense microwaves through the picture window. So much for excitement which is bound to arise in any occupation over time.
Overall it was like discovering as a kid that your parents are not the mature paragons of expertise you thought they were.
All the senseless investigations aside I could see society operates on invented plots and stories more than the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Mysha
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 08:33 PM

Steve: No problem, I usually don't understand most slang here anyway, thus no damage done. Yes, I know that some cults are suspected of being wolves, but I didn't want to add that to the things cults have in common as leaders don't themselves have to be the venerated entity. Think of the cult of the Virgin Mother. Likewise, some cults tie there members tighter and others lighter; that's not all that different from local churches, convents, and the like. And members of major religion, just like those of cults, may see themselves as chosen vessels, as they are promised to become chosen at the end of their suffering. Thus this is likely true in all cases, just that the "Protectors of the Vision of the Blessed Robby" may stress it more to stand out from the main religion.

It's not that I don't agree with your ideas; it's just that the original question wasn't very precise and each is interpreting it in his own way.

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:04 AM

Open ended questions enhance participation imo. Precise questions tend to be manipulative or become a disguised strident statement such as 'Why is Scientology a religion and not a cult?'

Hypnotic states of mind and how they are achieved is not the main issue. The message, post hypnotic suggestion or mind set shift is the most critical factor in shaping thought patterns and behavior.
Its like where you are going is more important than the vehicle that you take. Of course there is an old saying that 'it is the journey and not the destination' which is a language pet peeve to me. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 12:09 PM

So, I guess that's about it: A cult has people, a culture, and a minority viewpoint, and it's likely its members believe they are the chosen vessel. Other than that, it has non-members that brand them a cult. I guess that's about it.

No, it isn't. That's a naive approach to these these groups. There is a perceived or realized threat from true cults. Where do you think "drank the Koolaid" came from (though the Jonestown population actually drank "Flavoraid" before they all died)?

The David Koresh Branch Davidian Waco compound, the Jonestown (see my link above) murderous cult, they were lead by men who were charismatic, who were manipulative, who were destructive to their followers and others. There is a reason to fear cults.

We're not talking about old-fashioned hippie communes here, we're talking about the Charles Mansons of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 07:14 PM

Cheers, Maggie.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM

The development of the People's Temple doesn't fit the demoniac stereotype if you look a bit more into it. They were unquestionably a force for good during much of their time in the US, and it isn't at all clear to what extent they jumped or were pushed at the end. American capitalism doesn't like people setting up in competition to its ideology, and labelling those who want to do something different as "cults" or "dictatorships" is SOP. Hence what they did to Libya and are trying to do to Venezuela.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:21 PM

Late to the party, but I do have a couple of thoughts.

1) There's a lot of 'equivocation' in some folks' descriptions. The word is useful because it is needed to distinguish some supposed religious groups from 'established religions'.
Some of the equivocation happens when it is applied to groups that are not actually based on religious ideas. ..i.e. Trumpites.

2)Several people here have pretty well listed the usual things about supposed religious groups that get so much negative press.. abuse, centering one one or two 'leaders', central control of finances...etc. It makes little sense to label religious groups of centuries standing..even smaller ones.. as cults unless they also fit the narrower definition(s). Can't think of a good example right now. Maybe those who pretend to be Druids would fit... *shrug*

3) One thing they DO have in common is that they don't have me as a member.

I do know (at least I did in college) a woman who began as an artist, switched to architecture,then to Permaculture... then joined a strange group in Texas which did vaguely Druid-like rituals based on 'harmony with the Earth' and titles like 'princess'. I can't find that link right now, but it feels like a cult without all the negative trimmings.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 09:02 PM

Ah.. stumbled onto the site. They practice what they say is a Sufi path with 'titles' like Alia and Ata’allah. It's all very friendly and welcoming:
"The Inayati Order is interspiritual, so the class incorporates readings from the world’s religions, discussions, and simple practices. Since Sufism is a mystical path, connecting us with the One Being which is our True Nature, we will aim to have direct experiences. We’ll use poetry, art, nature, movement and practices to experience this Life and cultivate greater insight into the nature of Being."

Is this a cult? *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 10:44 PM

Gurdjieff comes to mind and was more of a philosopher, musician and time manager Bill. Too bad Islam did not take up his Sufi path.
Instead of prayers around te clock there was just a moment to STOP and self reflect on what one is doing and why.

I tried my hand at deprograming cult members when I was young.
First it is almost impossible to find them. Leaving that in the hands of parents never worked and if you could find them it was really hard to gain initial cooperation. I found the path of least resistance was to invite them home to teach the cult ways, love and practices to thier family with a freedom the family must adopt. In a couple weeks things worked out as often as not.

The hold on cult members can be extreme. In California cult followers cut off thier own genitals prior to commiting suicide, to catch a free ride on a comet.
I see what Trump is doing with mask aversion in a pandemic is a Jim Jones type teaching that actually kills people.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 11:06 PM

The self discovery of who the real bully is - took time and didn't seem to have a shortcut.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 07:29 PM

To this day I am not sure how I feel about being investigated for espionage. I was not accused or indicted so there was no injustice.
Because of a word of mouth approval of my anxiety session for one of of 4 scientists in an X ray laser lab working on Reagan's Star Wars project, suspicions were aroused. After an accident with the laser they were all pretty upset and eventually I saw all four. The last one was wired.
Then there was the proposterous set ups attempted by local authorities.
I hope actual cults are investigted as vigorously and often as I but the cloak of being a religion might put that in a different light.
The IRS is often used politically. Scientology was approved as a tax free religion.
WTF

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 09:09 PM

Wow. Bet you feel really important.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 06:17 AM

More like harrassed. I bet investigations cost them more than I made.
If the action adventure side of trying to help is not funny you can watch Fawlty Towers. I know full well that to stand out in your field, pick a small field.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 20 - 08:07 PM

Bullshit, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 07:00 AM

The unusual events in my life are indeed not the point.
The fact that people are in denial about what is actually happening be it strategically deliberate or by crowd phenomena, is the main issue.

The cult rumors that the state of Texas was under attack by UN troops or that antifascists have set fire to the entire West are proof of denial of proof, denial of facts and denial of truth on a massive scale.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 07:27 AM

My enemy is the -DENIAL- that resides in people that ignore the real issues in the lives they lead and think they must also insist that others must live up to ... They insist upon a patriarchy, mysogeny, super capitalism, greed, killing Democracy, racism and murder, colonialism, anti science and deny that they are in the grip of antiquated ideas that are not their own spirit.

We are wired for denial, are creatures of habit and we are on a hair trigger for fight or flight. We all need an eduction how cults use these traits to their advantage so we have a defense against their tactics/dark arts.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 09:51 PM

I don't have, or watch, television in the residence
where I am living presently.
But the paper is delivered, and in today's
New York Times
there was a review of "The Vow,"
a multi-episode documentary series on this dreadful "Nxivm" thing
(that was the official spelling).
One of its top, er, manipulators is now in prison.

Did anyone else read the NYT review -- or, better,
is anybody watching this thing on prime-time television?
The review observes that the cult leader appears utterly ludicrous,
and yet attracted all these people, and all this money,
and got away with heinous things.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 10:09 PM

Some people just 'need' ...or act like it is a need.. to have a simple, easy to quote and direct answer to the issues they see... just as they do about God(s) and race and what is safe to do and eat.
   Cults not only give direct answers, they institute ways to enforce adherence to the answers they provide. It seems no odd idea is so weird that it won't appeal to some people if it is done cleverly.

It never stops..

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 07:41 PM

The New York Times reports that the NXIVM cult founder/leader,
Keith Raniere,
has been sentenced to 120 years in prison,
largely for sex trafficking.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Charmion
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 08:15 PM

Looks good on him.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 11:17 PM

I didn't know about him until I read the New York Times article today. It sounds like a good conclusion to that trial.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:18 PM

I keep my personal definition of 'cult' rather loose. I think the term 'cult of personality' as used with even non-religious leaders is useful.

I also believe that most if not all of the world religions started as cults.I think the key to them all, big and small, is that a strong leader introduces a set of beliefs that separate his/her flock of adherents from the rest of the world. The set of beliefs must have something that most of the outsiders find unbelievable. The things that bring the adherents together also constitute a rejection of everybody else (and their beliefs).

The five books of Moses revolve around a leader who is given god-like powers to oppose a god (Pharaoh).

The New Testament has a leader who performs miracles, becomes a sacrifice and overcomes death.

I am not so versed in Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism, but I'm sure there are analogues of beliefs that constitute separatism from the rest of the world and union among the believers.

Even the world of science has its touchstones: Galileo versus the Pope, Darwin and Huxley against Bishop Wilberforce, even to a more recent generation Oppenheimer versus the U.S. nuclear establishment.


So I am saying that cult includes the tawdry and abusive to the magnificent and grand. And sometimes the difference is a few hundred years.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 08:11 AM

I second that robomatic. Judaism is reformed egyption mythology, egypians reformed a prior religious legends. Christians borrow more Judaiam than they like to admit. So they rewrote the Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: What do you think cults have in common?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:45 PM

Remember Joseph Campbell