BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 04:06 AM

Thinking up legal excuses based on abstract "rights" for evicting people who have lived in the same place for their entire lives, or for generations, is the sort of shit that white America used to justify the Native American genocide and what the Zionists are doing to Palestine.

The people of the Falklands get to tell Argentina to fuck off if they want. Just like the people of Scotland get to tell Britain to fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 03:07 AM

Indeed I have Bob. But they don’t include the right to make a legal determination on which of two claimants should be the owners and administrators of the property the squatter is squatting in.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: BobL
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 02:58 AM

The population of The Falklands/Las Malvinas are effectively squatters - a squatter has no right to choose his landlord.

Ever heard of squatters' rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 02:43 AM

so we have to tolerate this trolling post from the op that is poltically provocative and uses jingoistic phraseology, with no action from moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 08:13 PM

I am of the "what the inhabitants want goes" persuasion.

But the inhabitants cannot possibly have wanted Brexit (they didn't get a vote) and when the Johnson junta's programme really kicks in next year, a lot of Union Jacks are going to get pulled down.

The Falklands are politically unlike most places. Most if the population lives in Stanley, they know each other, and there is no Covid risk to interfere with in-person meetings. Public opinion is Facebook-proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 05:31 PM

”So that disposes neatly of most of the ruling classes of America, Australia, New Zealand, England . . . Argentina!
In fact if the diaspora from Africa is taken as fact, no one has any rights anywhere except in a very small part of Africa.”

Well even by your standards that’s a stretch Nigel. Still got that nit-obsession then?

Funny how you sidestepped my point that those uninhabited islands are the subject of legal claims to ownership by the UK and Argentina, and unlike the times when the New World, Australasia, etc. were being colonised, there exists today an international court of justice precisely for the purpose of settling legal disputes between countries. It would make far more sense, and would be infinitely more likely to produce an impartial result, if the question of whose claim took precedence was settled by the ICJ, rather than leaving it to the biases of a small group of settlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 04:53 PM

At the time, there was joke about this - when the Argentines invaded Port Stanley they saw a lone Royal Marine on a hill, the Argentine commander ordered 50 troops to capture the marine, they were sent over the hill but the next day none had returned.

So the Argentine commander sent 500 troops over the hill, next day one Argentine soldier came running down the hill shouting, its a trap, its a trap - his commander asked him how is it a trap? The soldier said " there are 2 Marines up there!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 04:20 PM

So that disposes neatly of most of the ruling classes of America, Australia, New Zealand, England . . . Argentina!
In fact if the diaspora from Africa is taken as fact, no one has any rights anywhere except in a very small part of Africa.

So if no-one has rights to The Falklands then the "squatters" should at least get some say in who gets control of a formerly uninhabited island.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:49 AM

Try again...

”Something of a non sequitur there is no 'indigenous population'.”

Yes, precisely, you got it! That’s the whole point - only a truly indigenous population should and could have the right to choose. The population of The Falklands/Las Malvinas are effectively squatters - a squatter has no right to choose his landlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:48 AM

”Something of a non sequitur there is no 'indigenous population'.”

Yes, precisely, you got it! That’s the whole point - only a truly indigenous population should and could have the right to choose. The population of The Falklands/Las Malvinas are effectively squatters - a squatter has no right to choose his landlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:41 AM

That’s one solution which, on the face of it, sounds very reasonable, and I’d agree with you if the Islanders were a genuine indigenous population. But they are not - they are comparatively recent settlers and descendants of settlers and, in the main, they are British
Something of a non sequitur there is no 'indigenous population'.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:36 AM

No, pfr, it's not his kind of place. I don't think luxury is a style choice in the Falklands, and the wind would play Hob with his hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:33 AM

Does trump have his eye on the Falklands as a golf resort...???

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 10:16 AM

”I believe that the islanders should have control of the islands.
If they want to continue as a British Overseas Territory then I have no objection to that. If they wish instead to ally themselves to the closer Argentina, then, again, that is up to them.”

That’s one solution which, on the face of it, sounds very reasonable, and I’d agree with you if the Islanders were a genuine indigenous population. But they are not - they are comparatively recent settlers and descendants of settlers and, in the main, they are British - no prize for guessing which of those two they would almost certainly choose!

I think that, in view of the fact that both the U.K. and Argentina have strong, legitimate claims to the Falklands/Las Malvinas archipelago, it would be a matter better settled by the International Court of Justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 08:14 AM

It would seem that the territory has been the subject of claim and counter claim for centuries. The history of settlements on the islands is quite interesting.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 08:13 AM

I don't think any nation would be advised to accept control by the current Peronist government in Argentina. However, if it meant a cheap deal on dulce de leche and the best beef in the world - that's another matter!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 07:59 AM

I believe that the islanders should have control of the islands.
If they want to continue as a British Overseas Territory then I have no objection to that. If they wish instead to ally themselves to the closer Argentina, then, again, that is up to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 07:50 AM

So who do you believe should have control of The Falklands/Las Malvinas, and what is your justification, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 06:04 AM

Look at a map and tell me, in all your honesty, where the Malvinas truly belong.
The Falklands belong exactly where they are, and no-one is trying to move them. Who should have control of them is another matter.
Calling them "the Malvinas" is pointless. I somehow doubt that you refer to Paris as "Paree", or Rome as "Roma".

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM

Dave, I’m sure everyone knows the answer to that! I think we’re back to ‘Don’t Feed The Troll’ again...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 03:46 AM

it was simply demonstrating the wimpy woky youth of today!!!

So you were showing how soft the youth of today are by comparing them to a bunch of highly trained soldiers 40 years ago? That doesn't make much sense to me. How did the youth of 1980 compare with the Marines then? Or are the Marines now wimpy and wokey (whatever that means) compared to those of 40 years ago? What point are you trying to make Bonzo? Or are you just, as has been suggested, trying to provoke a reaction?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 02:15 AM

Lost cause Mr Shaw!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 06:24 PM

The outrage that erupted when the Falklands were invaded was very rapidly turned into an opportunity for Thatcher to do the little-England bit that would assure her of another term. The collateral damage of lives lost were, for her, rather unfortunate, but worth it.

Look at a map and tell me, in all your honesty, where the Malvinas truly belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 12:55 PM

A decade after the 'war'..
My mate had a sudden flashback panic attack
while we were travelling in a mini bus on a band tour.

Without warning he freaked out and ducked down under the seats.
That's when we realised just how much trauma he'd buried and hidden from us all for so long..

He was back onboard ship under attack from jet bombers..

The only positive from that harrowing experience,
and talking with him afterwards, was bonding us friends all closer together
for the few years later we still kept in touch through music...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 12:40 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, Jack. I had a cousin who suffered a similar fate - different war.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 10:58 AM

The OP doth protest too much, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 10:49 AM

No it wasn't, it was simply demonstrating the wimpy woky youth of today!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 10:44 AM

”As BillD implied but did not say, the war for the Falkland Islands was a tragedy for many of the people involved in it. It takes a lot of digging and stretching to find any discernible benefit to anyone that could not have been achieved through diplomacy -- if either of the parties to the dispute had been willing to do more jaw-jaw.”

Spot on, Charmion, the best post on this thread. The Falklands War (or ‘Conflict’ as the nit-pickers seem to prefer) was an avoidable disaster, and absolutely nothing to celebrate.

As Dick rightly pointed out, this thread was started as ‘the point of view of right-wing imperialistic ideology trolling and a bit of political provocation’.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 10:20 AM

Bonzo, I might know a thing or two because I am a military veteran who has been plugged into the Canadian Forces RumourNet since Christ was a lance-jack in the Israeli Army and Pontius was a pilot. As a civilian, I worked in the belly of the Canadian security beast off and on (more on than off) for nearly 30 years.

Plus what Brother Andrew said. At the time of the Falklands War (Question for extra credit: When is a war a war, and not a mere "conflict"?), I was frequently a guest in the Senior NCOs' mess of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, which was what we had back then for a quick-reaction force. Noses were glued to the TV and rucksacks were packed and repacked, but nobody received anything resembling a warning order. Our top priority then, after home defence, was the "northern flank" of NATO -- i.e., Norway.

Jack Campin's points, gleaned from the Falkland Islands' own government website, pretty well cover any ground that needs covering now.

As BillD implied but did not say, the war for the Falkland Islands was a tragedy for many of the people involved in it. It takes a lot of digging and stretching to find any discernible benefit to anyone that could not have been achieved through diplomacy -- if either of the parties to the dispute had been willing to do more jaw-jaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 09:07 AM

Bonzo, Charmion might know a thing or two because she had two brothers serving at the time, her elder brother, a reservist artillery captain attending university, her younger brother, a regular artillery captain. She was also close friends of the unit emplaning officer of the Canadian Airborne Regiment and several senior officers. We all talk shop when we get together, the shop being current military operations and history.

I cannot speak for our brother, but I was champing at the bit to go, and would have put my hand up if they'd asked for volunteers. I was a recently qualified forward observation officer serving in 5e Régiment d'artillerie légère du Canada. The officers of 5e Brigade were glued to the news on the telly in the mess at lunch and intelligence summaries were closely examined in every office they went through.

As I recall, the Canadian Forces' Maritime Command backfilled for the UK in STANAVFORLANT. We also supplied the RN with every last fast blooming chaff rocket we had that wasn't already afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 05:16 AM

Really, look at the islands' website (or rather the one foisted on them by the Westminster regime). They are facing catastrophe from Brexit - much worse damage than anything Galtieri would have done to them 40 years ago - and the Johnson junta is doing nothing serious in response.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 04:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 09:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 06:13 PM

I think you missed the point!!! quote bonzo

No no, I understood your point clearly, it was the point of view, of right wing imperiaistic ideology trolling and a bit of political provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:41 PM

The usual question...

Who profited/profiteered most from the Falklands war...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:48 PM

Jack Campin'"
It would also be right to protect them from Fascist Britain now.

I just had a look at the Falklands Islands Government web resources. What you do not see there:
- any sign of democracy; self-determination for the islanders is not remotely on the agenda.
- any sign of meaningful economic benefit from the link to Britain.
- any initiative to maintain economic links with the EU, which has been the mainstay of the islands' economy for a generation.
- any attempt to develop links with Argentina.
The islands are being managed in a Brexiteer style of arrogance and incompetence.

What you "do not see" is no evidence of the presence of the opposite of what you "do not see".

Any argument you are trying to make is without any definite basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:48 PM

Had a very nice day in Uruguay, superb lunch and lovely people!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:33 PM

It would also be right to protect them from Fascist Britain now.

I just had a look at the Falklands Islands Government web resources. What you do not see there:

- any sign of democracy; self-determination for the islanders is not remotely on the agenda.

- any sign of meaningful economic benefit from the link to Britain.

- any initiative to maintain economic links with the EU, which has been the mainstay of the islands' economy for a generation.

- any attempt to develop links with Argentina.

The islands are being managed in a Brexiteer style of arrogance and incompetence.

They ARE trying to develop tokenistic links with Chile and Uruguay. Which are so far away with such poor transport links and such poor complementarity of production they will have the same effect as Britain getting its substandard trade deal with New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 12:46 PM

You may debate the politics and legalities of it all day.. but for those who were there, concerns were different...

This was written by someone who WAS there. He sang it in a pub in England, and this group heard it and asked to record it.

Survivor Leave

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 10:32 AM

However you look at the Falklands War, 1,000+ deaths, hundreds more wounded and injured, many more suffering life-damaging PTSD, and the loss of millions of pounds-worth of military and civil assets, was a very expensive price to pay for ~1,000 people, who love the U.K. so much they live pretty much as far away as it’s possible to get, to be able to continue to wave their British passports to piss the Argentines off, and to save the political arse of the worst U.K. Prime Minister of the 20th Century.

That is one view.
Once the islands had been invaded by Argentina should the UK just have accepted that and allow a change of 'ownership' of the islands?
What international precedents would have been set?
What reason would there be for the Spanish not to attempt annexation of Gibraltar, or the French of the Channel Islands? They would know that the UK would happily stand back and do sod all.
No country would be in any position to oppose large countries taking control of nearby smaller countries, by force.
If we were right to oppose Nazi Germany's forcible expansion in the first half of the century, then we were right to protect the Falklands in the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 10:07 AM

I think it was a conflict rather than a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 09:32 AM

However you look at the Falklands War, 1,000+ deaths, hundreds more wounded and injured, many more suffering life-damaging PTSD, and the loss of millions of pounds-worth of military and civil assets, was a very expensive price to pay for ~1,000 people, who love the U.K. so much they live pretty much as far away as it’s possible to get, to be able to continue to wave their British passports to piss the Argentines off, and to save the political arse of the worst U.K. Prime Minister of the 20th Century.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:22 AM

I always believe it’s very important not to let Union-Jack-Underpants Flag-Wavers’ jingoism get in the way of facts in serious matters such as the Falklands War...

Who did the European Community support during the war?

Did the US support the UK during the War

Plenty of answers here...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:15 AM

How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:01 AM

The Canadian government of the day had nothing handy to offer, and no time to add water to what little the Canadian Forces might have managed to stir up, even if Britain had asked for help. Back then, everything we had was pointed at the Soviet Union.

And Britain did not ask for help. Pointedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:31 AM

During the invasion of South Georgia by Argentina, 22 Royal Marines took on an Argentine warship and put it out of action. That required balls, guts and tip top training - none of your so called "woke" Nancy boys there - a biffing was required and a biffing was done !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:10 AM

This thread is nothing more than jingoistic trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:39 AM

Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentine Navy in the 1990s, wrote in a letter to La Nación, published in the 2 May 2005 edition, that the Belgrano was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force, that it was holding off for tactical reasons, and that being outside of the exclusion zone was unimportant as it was a warship on tactical mission. This is the official position of the Argentine Navy.

It's very interesting that no NATO country offered help in this conflict, no EU country offered help and likewise no Commonwealth country!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:15 AM

Had the Belgrano not been sunk, the almost inevitable naval battle would have resulted in many 1000s of lives lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 07:43 PM

The vessel wasn't being belligerent when it was sunk. And 323 Argies, largely young men who probably had no choice other than to be on that ship, and who certainly had little or no interest in politics, were slaughtered on the order of Margaret Thatcher. Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 04:40 PM

"Was the warship mentioned above the one that was outside the exclusion zone? The sailors whose killing we were told to rejoice about?"

During war, under international law, the heading and location of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status. In addition, the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), has testified that the attack was legitimate, as did the Argentine government in 1994.