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Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'

Lighter 21 Sep 20 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 21 Sep 20 - 06:03 PM
GeoffLawes 21 Sep 20 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 21 Sep 20 - 07:34 PM
RTim 21 Sep 20 - 07:47 PM
r.padgett 22 Sep 20 - 11:55 AM
John Minear 22 Sep 20 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 22 Sep 20 - 05:40 PM
RTim 22 Sep 20 - 07:28 PM
Lighter 22 Sep 20 - 07:43 PM
r.padgett 22 Sep 20 - 10:51 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 20 - 03:35 AM
r.padgett 23 Sep 20 - 04:18 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 20 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 23 Sep 20 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 23 Sep 20 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 23 Sep 20 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Sep 20 - 01:36 AM
GUEST,jag 24 Sep 20 - 01:24 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 20 - 09:41 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 20 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 04 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM
RTim 04 Oct 20 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Oct 20 - 07:17 AM
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Subject: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 05:08 PM

Steve Gardham is sharing online a preliminary version of his research into the first published appearances of hundreds of English folksongs, with full sources and dates. Steve gives a much clearer idea than anybody else of who was singing what and when.

The word "unique" is overused, but not in this case. Steve is creating an astonishing piece of work, years in the making, for which we all should be grateful.   

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l_gB0MN1uhDJo4tp8k_Hlw_uDL2UL7Zu/view

Thanks, Steve!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 06:03 PM

Looking forward to mining this ..,

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 07:05 PM



Well done Steve - thanks for sharing this awesome work -Geoff


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 07:34 PM

Wonderful. How much work must have gone into this. It's an excellent resource.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: RTim
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 07:47 PM

Great job Steve...but I am sure some readers with have an issue with this information....

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 11:55 AM

Lot of songs there! and lot of research

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 12:23 PM

A tremendous amount of good work! Thanks Steve. And thanks, Lighter, for putting this up.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 05:40 PM

There's always one Tim - please explain your thinking.

Well done Steve - Gold Badge in the next round??


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: RTim
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 07:28 PM

Malcolm....There are a number readers here (on Mudcat) who believe most folk songs were written by the "The Anonymous Public".....and not by urban hacks....which I think in part is what Steve G. believes....and this work does increase the likelihood that most Folk Songs were written as Broadsides, etc.. and learned by the rural poor from that source.

That is NOT to say that all songs fit this bill - as some may have been written by "local" singers, etc.....who we don't know and I suspect these are NOT included in Steve list....

Readers who do not like what I have said...so be it.....like you I am unlikely to change my views...I will just continue to sing the songs I like.....whatever their source.

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 07:43 PM

I don't see why a good song written by a hack is any worse than a good song written by a non-hack.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Sep 20 - 10:51 PM

What has SG no Gold badge? never

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 03:35 AM

I have no intention of taking this further but to repeat what I have said many times in the past; our knowledge of the oral tradition dates back only to the end of the 19th century, we have no idea which of them (though it it quite possible, even likely many did) might have been taken from existing oral sources.
Our experience with Travellers gave clear evidence of singers taking songs from their oral traditions to have them printed to be sold.
It has always been assumed that our song traditions were a mixture of those created by 'the folk' and those made for sale - nothing new has emerged to change that opinion; presenting only one side of the situation does not negate the other
I refuse to believe that the 'folk's' practice of song-making was confined to 'a few retired people scribbling verses to fill in the empty hours' as the oral tradition was once described here
My paper, 'Breaking ind in Church) (available on Academia) shows the extent to which the Irish put their everyday experiences into verse as late as the first half of the 20th century - were they alone in doing so ?
Steve's work is an invaluable contribution to understanding the history of our folk songs in print; it tells us nothing of their origins
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 04:18 AM

You are right of course Jim and no one can be totally sure of the origins of songs unless you were present in the pub at the precise moment or did write it

Broadsides were printed for profit and cared little I suspect where the origins were ~ would it sell and was there a good tune etc

Earliest Versions ~is the title and Steve I know has searched back and done his "due diligence" in his findings

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 01:50 PM

That's a great research resource. Is there any way to download it or get updates?

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 03:54 PM

I had no trouble downloading. Right click did the trick.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 04:00 PM

Grovelling apologies! I'm talking out of me 'arris! Click on more actions (three dots top right hand corner) Select download and you will be fine.

'arris for Aristotle-Aristotle for bottle and glass, bottle and glass for Khyber pass, Khyber pass, ass no questions tell no lies!
Don't talk out of it Nick.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 23 Sep 20 - 04:15 PM

And the further extension "Anita" (Anita Haris - Arris etc) according to an old episode of "New Tricks"! (Greetings Nick - hope you and Mally are coping OK


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Sep 20 - 01:36 AM

Thank you for posting the information . I had been looking forward to more from Steve Gardham on this topic. Congratulations to Steve. Shame on any ideologue with nothing better to do than belittle his achievements (and I speak as somebody who doesn’t always agree with Steve).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 24 Sep 20 - 01:24 PM

That must have been a huge amount of work.

Can I echo Jack Campin's point, about whether the names or first lines of any songs are known earlier from references in literature or as the names of tunes published without words? (I think that is the gist of what he said).

In that context do we know if, and if so how commonly, publishers modified the name of songs when appropriating them from elsewhere? I guess editors might pick a 'headline' that would sell.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 20 - 09:41 AM

Hi jag,
I'm back from a little hol.

You only have to look at a site like the Bodleian to see that they often altered the titles and rewrote the verses, mixing and matching wherever there was a penny to be gained. Recycling is by no means a new idea. The main culprits were the broadside writers but even the top notchers weren't held back from pinching material from wherever, just as they have always done. What we could add to the database soon is where the plots have been recycled from earlier sources such as with The Tidy Cow, or Keach i' the Creel or 'Bramble Briar'.

As for earlier references in other literature, we do try to flag this up when we come across it. Still a lot to do and we (assistance from Steve Roud and Martin Graebe) are always grateful for any corrections or suggestions or even help from anyone with access to collections not currently available online such as Harvard.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 20 - 09:53 AM

Tim,
The 705-song database does actually include those songs that have not yet been found to have their earliest extant versions in commercial production and there are currently 86 of those. All of the 705 have been found in more than one version in English oral tradition between 1840 and 1940 (excluding Carpenter which was not available when the project started). I've just spent the past week analysing those 86 in terms of song types and motifs. What may be of interest, the biggest category was of songs that are of the catalogue type identified by Roger deV. Renwick.

I can easily send a copy of the presentation which describes how the project was put together and what it includes, to anyone who wants it. If I haven't already got it just PM me your email.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM

Here is a piece on broadside ballads by Steve, for anybody looking for a taste of his approach. I hope he won't mind my posting it.

https://tradsong.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Broadsides.pdf

Sorry, no good at making links, tried often, cannot seem to manage it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: RTim
Date: 04 Oct 20 - 06:36 PM

https://tradsong.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Broadsides.pdf

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Origins: Steve Gardham's 'Earliest Versions'
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Oct 20 - 07:17 AM

Thank you RTim.


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