BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys

Subject: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 12:05 PM

Michael Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
BBC Radio 4

The author Michael Morpurgo (War Horse, Private Peaceful) explores the ways in which folk songs have reflected timeless human experiences, both in the past and today.

With help from singers, songwriters and other passionate experts, Michael admires the indelible stories within classic songs that deal with migration, war, protest and love.

Over the four themed episodes, Michael considers the locations and historical contexts that gave rise to much-loved traditional songs, and finds out how the same topics are inspiring new folk songs in the 2020s.

from Monday 19th October 2020
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nllb/episodes/guide

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Joe G
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 01:25 PM

Sounds interesting!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 08:42 PM

The first I knew Morpurgo had any interest in folk was when he was in the news for being attacked by an anti-semitic Brexiteer at the Sidmouth festival.

More power to his elbow for persisting regardless.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Oct 20 - 04:33 AM

Trailed on Radio 4 this morning;

Monday 19 October 4pm; 1/4 Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 14 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM

Sounds great!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 14 Oct 20 - 06:55 AM

Good. I usually hear R4.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 20 - 08:00 AM

Wonderful

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 10:42 AM

Folk music by Michael Morpurgo

Michael Morpurgo interviewed by Anna Leszkiewicz. He recalls sharing a performance in Ypres with Coope Boyes and Simpson.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 02:29 PM

From Wikipedia; "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" is a popular traditional song, sung to the same tune as "When Johnny Comes Marching Home". First published in London in 1867 and written by Joseph B. Geoghegan, a prolific English songwriter and successful music hall figure (Lighter 2012, pp. 28 – 29).

From FOLK SONG AND MUSIC HALL The intersection of folk and music hall, the songs and social history; [Joseph Bryan (Jack) Geoghegan (1816-89)] was born in Barton-upon-Irwell (part of Salford) in 1816, son of a fustian cutter from Dublin, his mother was from Manchester. Allegedly “before he reached manhood [he] took to writing songs upon current events”. Steve Gardham and others active on Mudcat have found around 300 songs written by Geoghegan.

Jack didn’t live by the standards of the day! He married Elizabeth in 1833 and went on to have nine children with her. But he also started a second family with Mary Birchall around 1850 and went on to have eleven children with her. He maintained the two the two families simultaneously, until Elizabeth died in 1871, and he very soon after married Mary.

Geoghegan worked at the Star Hotel in Liverpool from 1845 to 1858, may have been based in Glasgow 1859-1860, worked in several music halls in Sheffield from 1860 to 1864, before becoming the chairman of ceremonies at the Bolton Museum and Star Music Hall in the late 1860s and 1870s.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 05:26 PM

That's a great story but I'll never remember it. Those who introduce their songs with such detail have always impressed me.

Have heard the R4 trailers. MM seems to say four songs have survived ie those he'll cover in 4 programmes. Must be worth a listen anyway.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Ian
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 04:35 AM

For none UK friends that is BBC radio 4 at 16.00 hrs UK time.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 05:18 AM

At the moment, UK clocks are set to British Summer Time, 1 hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time. Clocks go back 1 hour at 2am on Sunday, 25 October, returning to Greenwich Mean Time.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM

you're right about the time for now but rapidly heading back to the Dark Ages

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 11:52 PM

Author Michael Morpurgo - best-known for his children's books such as War Horse - believes the UK should stay in the European Union.

"I do know my history, and I know we've been at peace for all these years - and that has something to do with Europe," he says.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 11:35 AM

excellent programme, good to hear MacColl, four loom weaver imo would have had more impact unaccompanied

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 01:26 PM

Michael Morpurgo's Folk Journeys Episode 2/4 BBC Radio 4 4pm Monday 26 October 2020

In the second episode, Michael considers a song of protest: Four Loom Weaver.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 04:04 AM

Congratulations to the bbc for this programme

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 04:10 AM



Yes,very good - well worth catching the remaining three programmes.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Joe G
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 04:53 AM

Agreed - excellent programme with a wide range of contributors

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 10:26 AM

A wide range of contributors but very little in the way of announcement of names of contributors.

Robin

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 11:05 AM

I found it very enjoyable and well constructed and careful to keep its appeal broad to those who know the music intimately and those experiencing the songs and singers for the first time. Generally, the speakers were well chosen. There were a few minor things that I didn't like about it but they they were well outnumbered by the things that I enjoyed.
The main message the programme seemed to have was 'This is the music and song of sincerity' and that is one of the elements that attracted so many of us to this music,

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 11:25 AM

Vic is spot on here. Agreeable listening. I'd like to think it might have interested the casual listener in the songs we know and love. Well we can but dream.
Pity it wasn't longer - imagine what wider aspects might have been covered if it had been an hour? Still we must be grateful for anything of this nature from our national public service broadcaster. I'd like to think Lord Reith would have approved. Morgurgo comes across as the decent human being I believe him to be.
I'll be tuning in again.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 12:49 PM

i think Lord Reith would have approved, i thought the analysis was thoughtful, the announcements of names of speakers is not so important to new listeners perhaps as to those who have been involved for a while. the exposure to the songs and the analysis and context is possibly the most important.This is exactly the correct way to introduce folk song, much better than folk being part of some celebrity or pop star or competition,format. it is the music that is of paramount importance and its political and historical context ,excellent programme

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 02:26 PM

Yes, many more positives than negatives. Can anyone please give us a blue clicky to the programme somewhere online so we can praise it and ask for more of the same?

The only slight negative that I had was a few of the tracks were unnecessarily cluttered with accompaniment which detracted from the clarity of the texts, but I suppose they have to keep the attention of the casual listener.

No mention of Jon Lighter who has done quite a bit of study on the relative origins of the 2 songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 02:41 PM

'more positives than negatives'. Good for Folk. Will hear the others. I really don't know if Guns and Drums was a reality check to Johnny Comes Marching Home but it was good to hear snippets of Folk again, (I wouldn't like to choose which renderings for any programme).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 02:57 PM

Steve wrote:-
Can anyone please give us a blue clicky to the programme somewhere online so we can praise it and ask for more of the same?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000nll9

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Oct 20 - 03:02 PM

BBC: We appreciate all comments, appreciative or otherwise, as it’s helpful to know what you think. We will circulate your comment the next morning for all staff to see. There are three ways to contact us:

Online; BBC Comments

Phone; Record your comments 24 hours a day: (*charged as geographic numbers)
03700 100 222*
03700 100 212* (textphone)

Post; Send your letter to:
BBC Comments
PO Box 1922
Darlington
DL3 0UR

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 05:37 AM

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 05:38 AM

absolutely brilliant, the four loom weaver.available on listen again mondayoct 26 1600pm

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 05:56 AM

Hutchings poor dress maker was ruined by vcals not being loud enough above accompaniment, in contrast to the following song by karen polwart. karen polwart made some very apt points. particulsrly about why you should songs

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 11:40 AM

Yes, if anything even better than the first. I agree, Dick, some tracks the vocals are obscured by the backing, and the sound quality on some wasn't brilliant but if you're using old recordings that's bound to happen.

And as someone commented on earlier the singers weren't always named.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 03:01 PM

some interesting points made by one scottish speaker who claimed that folk song a century ago made social issues thought provoking, but this role has been replaced by literature and plays etc today, utter boloney
    of course this is inaccurate, for example, Dickens wrote several books that discussed social conditions a century ago, so the claim that the use of literature and plays to illuminate inequality is something new is wide of the mark.
folk song and literature and plays have always discussed the inequalities of ordinary people, it is not a new 2st century phenomenon that has been discovered by ken loach
Writers such as Charles Dickens, Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Brontë illuminated contemporary social problems through detailed descriptions of poverty and inequality
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 20 - 03:49 PM

quote Dick Gaughan, SOME SINGERS WILL SING SONGS THAT WILL CALL ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES, some people will sing songs that they think people will like, and some people will sing the songs that they think matter and find the people who will want to hear them.
   an interesting statement but one that describes perfomance in too simplistic terminolgy, it is not as black and white as that, there are shades of grey.
perfomance is about variety and assessing your audience, it IS about singing the songs that matter to you but that does not rule out that you know the audience will also like them, you might be in a pub situation, not a concert you have to win an audience that was not there specifically to hear you.
approach has to vary upon situation, however he was right that you should never sing a song that does not matter to you as a singer.
A thought provoking programme that i have now listened to several times

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 07:14 AM

Alas missed 2nd prog, doing something else but re background intrusion this is a deliberate BBC policy it seems. Started with trailers backed by irrelevant music (so you knew it was a trailer) but becoming common with programmes themselves. Turned off trailers but have done so lately with some programmes.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Jos
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 07:39 AM

Yes, I frequently turn off trailers and programmes.
And it's not just background music, which is often just a few notes played over and over and over again until you could scream. Often it is just irrelevant noises, as if someone is clearing out a kitchen cupboard behind the speaker, or endlessly slapping their thigh.
It drives me mad.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 11:06 AM

Re the above posts by JHW and Jos, I wholeheartedly agree. Announcements being made while being overshadowed by completely irrelevant noise.

If the anouncement / trailer is meant to be heard why cover it up.

If the BBC is so hard up think of how much could be saved on noisemakers' royalties and the cost of recording the stuff.

I often miss programmes because if this including many excellent natural history programmes on TV. David Attenborough's programmes being a prime example. Haven't watched one for some years.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Jos
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:19 PM

The worst example I can remember was a while ago on the World Service. A contributor was talking about how she loved to be completely alone in a remote part of Greenland. She described how wonderfully quiet it was, with only the sound maybe of the breeze over the ice, gentle waves and an occasional seabird. She had a brought a recording so that listeners could experience it themselves - which the programme makers played AGAINST A TRACK OF 'PRETTY' MUSIC.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 06:58 PM

I can only surmise that everyone from Hollywood to the BBC to amateur makers of YouTube videos adds "background" (or sometimes more like foreground) music because everyone else does. Some of them even add percussion to news bulletins. It drives me up the wall. The worst instance I've ever encountered was music added to a Royal Institution lecture. I emailed them to ask what they would think of someone present in the lecture theatre playing music. They seemed not to see the point.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:49 AM

re musical noise behind mainly spoken events, such programmes as BBC Feedback sometimes tackle this but the BBC reps always say basically that it's a modern approach!

That dismisses it as a problem only to older people- what rubbish. Even the World Service suffers badly from it, and Mark Mardell's Sunday 'World at One' on Radio 4 normally has several irrelevant pop songs in its 'modern' approach.

   I know nothing of TV- gave it up years ago & while I've not heard the programme in question, a lot of time for Michael Morpurgo, it's pretty certain that without such a celeb to front it, they'd never have made the programme!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:18 AM

I would guess some presenters have enough status to reject intrusion. 'In Our Time' had none this morning.
Thanks Melvyn.
One reason I too gave up on TV was spinning out programme length with padding. (Jeered at decades ago by someone illustrating Lord Privy Seal with pictures of a Lord, a Privy and a Seal).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Jos
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 08:07 AM

I remember a 'subtle' use of barely relevant sound effects years ago (again on Radio 4) when a news item about civil servants was introduced with the sound of somebody shuffling sheets of paper.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:09 AM

As the "Michael Morpurgo's Folk Journeys" programmes so poorly credit the contributors, would it be possible for a kind Mudcatter who knows to annotate each episode here?

Many thanks
Harry

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:35 AM

Good idea, Harry! Richard, Dick, Henry or Vic would be able to do this in an instant. I could contribute a few.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:41 PM

i am busy trying to learn the concertina ,however i look forward to the next programme

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,SB666
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 04:36 AM

Stopped watching Attenborugh and other similar docos when the over-loud orchestral backing to some animal or nature activity drowned our what he was saying. Also I noticed that sound levels of him speaking fluctuated from barely perceptible to loud but OK. Haven't the Beeb's post-production sound engineers heard of normalisation?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:37 AM

Sorry to be cross threaded again but I'm sure Sandman can already play a concertina

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 11:37 AM

ah john we are always learning

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 09:38 PM

I liked the second one a lot better than the first. The heavy backings of those folk-rock arrangements in the first were downright pathological. And Polwart's guitar work was irrelevantly cluttered. The second told a clearer story in stronger music.

Ralph McTell came across much better than I expected; I'll look out for more of his work. And Ashley Hutchings didn't.

I'll listen on to the rest.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 02:41 AM

Ralph McTELL, IMO a very good song writer, i was at one of his first gigs when he used to play blind blake repertoire, at which he was good, interesting to see how he has progressed

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:30 AM

Blind Blake?

I thought it was Blind Willie McTell, otherwise he may have used the name Ralph Blake ?????

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 06:34 AM

Another 4pm today, Mon 2nd Nov must remember

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:59 AM

he used to play a lot of blind blake , very raggy ragtime.
i know he named himself after blind willie mctell. ralph blake is not got anything more to offer than his real name ralph may.
McTell's guitar playing has been modelled on the style of the US's country blues guitar players of the early 20th century, including Blind Blake, Robert Johnson and Blind Willie McTell.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM

Just listened to episode three. Some nice music and interesting discussion, but where was the credit for Nic Jones, not just for the recording of his that was played, but for rewriting the version of 'Ten Thousand Miles' that was the centre-piece of the programme? The only reason that the line 'You've been a friend to me' - which was described as key to the song - is in there at all is because Nic took that verse from one Appalachian version in Cecil Sharp's collection, and spliced it into another version that he used as his template. I know it's not primarily a programme about the history of the songs, but really that kind of revival recreation should be acknowledged. I felt much the same about MacColl's 'Four Loom Weaver' in the previous episode.

There was some discussion of the reticence of modern 'folk' songwriters in composing love songs, which I think missed the point that old broadside ballads like 'Ten Thousand Miles' were not actually personal statements of affection, but generalised expressions of emotion based on formulaic metaphors which would appeal to as many buyers as possible. It's the songs that say things like 'my girlfriend dumped me, and I'm so miserable' that some people find self-indulgent.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM

Complaints to the BBC about missing credits can be made here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

====

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM

I guess all exposure is worthwhile. Less intrusion this time though I'd assume the series was all made in one go.
I enjoyed hearing Nic Jones again.
BBC of late is re-broadcasting lots of old shows as new production will be difficult. They might have made these into three quarter hour programmes by including longer song clips, these were often only a line or so.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 05:08 PM

some uninformed discussion,
I do not think MacColl considered First time ever as a Folk song, i must contact Jim Carroll and ask him.
K Polwart, WHAT A SILLY BILLY, QUOTE.. A POP SINGER WAS ABLE TO SING A LOVE SONG WITH PATHOS,BECAUSE HE WAS NOT FROM A FOLK BACKGROUND.
This must rate as an entry for Pseuds Corner are folk singers a different species?do they not have Relationships?
What a load of Squit
if Karen Polwart sees this,
I cordially invite her to my next gig and i will sing her love songs, i am a singer from a folk back ground.
I have heard some love songs sung with passion and pathos by a number of different folk singers.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

I'd rather hear Dave Burland singing 'First time ever' or Roberta Flack but I wouldn't like the job of picking illustrations. I AM a fan of Burns songs. Everyone's label of Folk is different.
I hope there is another series for the publicity. Plenty eerie imaginings and ghastly events in song to cover.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 10:40 AM

Interesting reactions to the third programme in this series particularly the one from Brian Peters.

My own reaction was that it was the best of the three so far and it threw different lights of both the traditional and modern love songs. Three of the female contributors, Nancy Kerr, Karine Polwart (please note spelling) and Nicola Kearey all talked in different ways about their difficulty with singing straightforward love songs from a modern feminist perspective because so often the cheated or abandoned woman is left powerless and with no means of redress. I found what Nancy had to say about The Turtle Dove / Ten Thousand Miles very interesting. Brian wrote above about the "spliced" version that Nic Jones recorded; Nancy's version from her 1997 (Turtle Dove from the Fellside CD Starry Gazy Pie.) is also from a number of sources. Here's what the CD notes say: -

A song made up of tags from other ballads, collected in Kentucky from “Singing Willie” Nolan. The words are more or less as E.K. Wells printed in The Ballad Tree, but Nancy altered the melody and time signature, and added a final verse.

but this is the process that many folk songs go through in the hands of folk revivalists.
Karine talked about the fate of women in ballads and how love often turns to grief for them in ballads. She gave the of example of one that I love singing Clerk Saunders & May Margaret but also talked about the lingering impact of the wonderful love songs of Robert Burns on Scottish culture and about how often they are still sung at weddings and funerals.
My Scottish mother left a letter with my sister saying that it was to be opened straight after her death, A lot of it was about how much she loved and felt proud of each of her four children, her six grandchildren and the three great-grandchildren that she lived to see. There were also explicit instructions about how her funeral was to be conducted. I was to give the eulogy as well as to sing Burns' My Luve's Like A Red, Red Rose which, of course, draws on The Turtle Dove. I just about got through it with Tina's fine concertina accompaniment and the feeling of support that I felt oozing into me from her - but I have never dared to sing it in public since.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 10:57 AM

the programme was however thought provoking, unlike Vic i preferred the other two, THE MUSIC, imo was variable in all three from excellent most of the time to occasionally mediocre.
I preferred the background approach of the first and second,which in my opinion was better informed and from which i learned more.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 11:32 AM

incidentally ,i am in a state of shock ,i went busking today in Bantry, and thought i would sing some english love songs. well first a guy cam by and sked me about the song , isang,and said it sounded like something martin carthy would sing so i chatted a bit more and he said he saw martin carthy in ballydehob 2 years ago , i said really well i organised that concert. so we talked a bit more and i started playing and sang adieu swet lovely nancy, game of all fours, seeds of love,
and    i could see a woman listening for about 15 minutes. she came over and said.. your a great singer, here something for christmas and slipped something in my pocket, i said thanks, when she had gone, i looked ,i could not believe it, it was 2 50 euro notes.what a kind generous person
, i am still shocked, i have never been given anything like that, somebody liked a folk singer singing love songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:08 PM

Dick wrote
K Polwart, WHAT A SILLY BILLY, QUOTE.. A POP SINGER WAS ABLE TO SING A LOVE SONG WITH PATHOS,BECAUSE HE WAS NOT FROM A FOLK BACKGROUND.
This must rate as an entry for Pseuds Corner are folk singers a different species?do they not have Relationships?
What a load of Squit if Karen Polwart sees this, I cordially invite her to my next gig....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions will differ. However, if you are going to criticise what people said, you really need to make sure that you are quoting them accurately and giving the correct context. Here is an accurate transcription of what Karine said on the programme:-

...heard him sing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" and I actually came on the stage weeping. I just had to take a moment to stop and compose myself because it was so beautiful.... interesting to me that the person at that gig who managed to pull of the maximum pathos was the lead singer of a pop band, not a folk musician. I think that he was able to inhabit that with total conviction; no sense of embarrassment was because he was not from a folk background. He was from a pop background. He was able to do that and really nail it in a way that might not sit so comfortably with a folk singer.

To me she is talking about the way the way he approached the song. Peggy Seeger sung a snatch on the programme as if it were a folk song. Roberta Flack sung it with her background as a soul diva. Paul Buchanan obviously found a way of interpreting the song that got to Karine. All a matter of reactions and opinions.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:33 PM

Of course Vic and it is my opinion that she is mistaken, furthermore i have heard many good renditions of love songs from folksingers with a folk back ground.
How i was quoting her incorrectly, i think you are being pedantic.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:42 PM

As you know, Dick. I do not get into arguments on Mudcat. If you need further clarification on this, we will have to do it on a Private Message basis.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM

and for the record i do not think MacColl considered that song to be a folk song.
Iknow that singers from a folk background can sing love songs that are not folk songs, one of the best was dusty springfield, of course only my opinion Vic

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 01:20 PM

Again I thoroughly enjoyed the programme. Some interesting opinions and insight especially from Nancy Kerr.

Just one little quibble, The Turtle Dove is much older than the 1700s, so the researchers haven't really done their job thoroughly. There are 2 quite different ballads from as far back at least as 1680 that contain most of the verses and in these there is further evidence that these verses had been lifted from something earlier.

The idea that folk ballads are mostly impersonal and third person is very true. That is an essential part of their nature. But that doesn't stop them from being beautiful works of art and occasionally expressing amazing truths. Whilst most folksongs are ballads there is still a sizable chunk of lyric pieces and many of these are laments that employ a wide range of commonplaces, as does The Turtle Dove.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 02:07 PM

Yes, I agree that Nancy talked a lot of sense, and many of us who interpret traditional songs make exactly the kind of choices she was describing. I also thought Karine Polwart had a good point about the power of songs describing forbidden love across a class divide.

What I was thinking about before was the section in which Blair Dunlop spoke about the folk world frowning on personally-centred songs - which 'The Turtle dove' is not. Bu Steve G is quite right that even formulae can have enormous power and beauty.

Also I agree with Dick that 'First Time' isn't really written in the folk idiom, so it's no more surprising that Paul Buchanan would have been able to make a good job of it than that Roberta Flack did.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM

Vic respectfully i might suugest that if you want a private discussion,it would have been better to send your.. 3 nov 12 08 post by private message,
formulae can have power and beauty i remeber discussing with my local butcher the fields of athenry[a song i am not very keen upon] he said to me but when you sing it with 50thousand others at a rugby international it becomes something else, iwould have loved to hear that mighty singer dusty springfield [from a folk background] singing first time ever i sa your face

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 03:38 PM

Hi Brian
I think the idea that the folk world frowns upon personally centred songs is rather too simplistic and overstated. If those sort of songs are presented in an accessible way and they are good songs we can all identify with then there is not a problem. I think it is a wider issue than that. A lot of poetry and song is so personal and meaningful only to the writer so that it is difficult to empathise with. When you are out for an evening's entertainment the last thing you want to be asking is what the hell was that about?

Folk songs that have long been in oral tradition have their gaps in leaping and lingering and often they leave the gaps to the imagination of the listener, but those songs don't last long if they don't have some meaning to the listener.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:02 PM

next weeks programme songs about emigration?i hope the great song isle de france is included

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:45 PM

Transportation or crime and punishment in general is a further possible topic.
We may have to thank covid for these programmes. I'm guessing the BBC has all sorts in the cupboard that they are bringing out as new production is difficult

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:54 AM

I think you're a bit optimistic there, JHW- the BBC is not noted for retaining tapes, videos etc-

They often beg for, and also receive scratchy copies of old programmes which they simply threw out or recorded over!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 01:47 PM

Ewan did not consider any of his songs folk songs, so Jim Carroll informs me so why Morpurgo included in it his folk journey, is mystifying since it is not a folk song but then ashley hutchings effort in the second programme should not have been included either.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 02:15 PM

The Turtle Dove by Birl Ives ...

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mb4c0kepi5ygbj1/25._Burl_Ives_Hally_Wood_-_The_Turtle_Dove.mp3

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 03:26 PM

Burl Ives

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 04:04 PM

The series is not restricted to traditional folk songs!

"With help from singers, songwriters and other passionate experts, Michael admires the indelible stories within classic songs that deal with migration, war, protest and love. Over the four themed episodes, Michael considers the locations and historical contexts that gave rise to much-loved traditional songs, and finds out how the same topics are inspiring new folk songs in the 2020s."

Next week, the BBC Radio 2 Folk Show falls on Armistice Day and Mark presents a special mix of songs about war and peace. This week/tonight it features Rachel Newton.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:14 PM

but since MacColl [who knew more about folk song] than the producer of this programme thought his own songs were not folk songs, who is deciding that these songs such as" first time ever", and the offering by hutchings is a new folk song.
who are these experts that clearly have never heard of the 1954 definition, they would do better to call them new.. art songs . because a song is sung at a folk club or folk festival that doesnot make it a folk song, a case in point are songs by buddy holly [remember andy caven]
somebody in the bbc who does not seem properly informed is stating that some recently composed songs, such as first time ever are folk songs. bullshit

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:26 PM

and before anyone comes and says its folk music because they like it.
i happen to like Thelonius Monk, but he is not folk he was a be bop jazz man, i happen to like Beethoven but he was not a folk musician he was a good classical composer.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 12:34 AM

however i appreciate radio4 putting these programjmes on ,thankyou

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,ColinWB
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:01 AM

Very interesting to find a website talking about English folk music; living in Spain prevents me getting BBC Sounds so no chance for Radio 2's folk programmes. Has anyone a suggestion for other websites that discuss / highlight English folk music old, contemporary, commercial ? Many tks...adios!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM

Hi Colin, I'm a fan of Mainly Norfolk.

Lots of info about artists and song history, with plenty of Youtube and other links.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:37 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/listening-outside-the-uk/download-overseas

Can I download podcasts and programmes outside of the UK? You can download most podcasts on the BBC Sounds app or from the BBC Sounds website from outside of the UK. Some can only be downloaded within the UK due to rights agreements which prevent us from making the content available internationally. Music and sports programmes are most likely to be restricted. You can't download radio programmes on the BBC Sounds app from outside the UK. Again, this is due to rights restrictions.

https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/mobile-phones/1404928/how-to-listen-to-bbc-radio-abroad

If - for some reason - you can't download or access the app, then one of best alternatives is a free app called British Radios (Android, iOS). This app lets you listen to most of the live BBC radio stations, and other radio stations like Heart, Magic and Absolute Radio without paying a penny. Another app that does a similar job is TuneIn Radio (Android, iOS) but this works on the freemium model, meaning you'll need to pay to remove ads and unlock other content.

If you're using a PC or laptop to listen to radio within Google's Chrome browser and don't want to navigate around the BBC Sounds website, then you can enhance your listening experience using the unofficial BBC Radio Tuner extension for Google Chrome. This lets you flip between the BBC's main radio channels via a simple selector on Chrome's toolbar.

Occasionally, a BBC radio broadcast, whether live or on catch-up, will be replaced by a recorded message telling you that "due to rights restrictions this part of the programme is unavailable" - or something to that effect. This most often applies to coverage of sports and other live events that the BBC only has the licence to broadcast within the UK.

The easiest way to work around such restrictions is by using a VPN. Two of our current favourite VPN services are ExpressVPN and Surfshark VPN. Both cater to different budgets, but will unlock any geo-restricted content - whether it's BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds regardless of where in the globe you want to access your broadcast from.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 08:26 AM

Thanks to Brian and Henry. Indeed, I can get Radio 4 both live and on Sounds, am listening to Morpurgo's third episode now ( if any one elsewhere wants to know what we're talking about - it's at    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000p1v3 )

I'll try the other methods of listening, Ta muchly.

---

Guest, please give yourself a name to use when posting and use it consistently. And if you wish to join, send an email to [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 05:12 PM

Tracklists here;

1/4 Johnny I hardly knew ye

2/4 Four Loom Weaver

3/4 Ten Thousand Miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 04:03 AM

Thanks henryp!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:10 AM

The list was useful- George Michael and Eddi Reader!!    celebs rule!!!
saves me wasting my time listening....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:42 AM

Went to the magnificent Blair Dunlop Band webcast gig last night, in our living room. Excellent folk value for only £8, great self penned folk songs!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 06:03 AM

And without Ashley Hutchings, a great deal of folk music would have died years ago.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 06:42 AM

1. On this thread, let's steer well clear of the subject of which songs are folk songs.

2. The pop world is largely a closed book to me, but we get exposed to some of it willy nilly as muzak. Many of the songs there and some that turn up in singarounds (live or currently on Zoom) are the sort characterised by Brian as 'my girlfriend dumped me, and I'm so miserable'.

My problem with those is not the scenario, which is a common enough part of the human condition and a perfectly good subject for songs, but the preponderance of the word "you", as if the singer is singing to the ex-lover, despite that person being absent by definition. We can perhaps imagine the song as a letter to the ex-lover, but that seems the wrong format for the singer to be telling us their woes (or vicariously the woes of someone else). Traditional songs on this theme are either couched in the third person ("I heard a maid lament ...") or if first person are addressed to the world at large "'Tis how my love slights me ...").

In "The first time ever" no-one has been dumped and the sentiment is very positive, but otherwise the same applies. As a personal statement from Ewan to Peggy it was excellent, but I have trouble seeing its point when it is sung by someone else to an audience. (However I acknowledge that people enjoy reading Shakespeare's sonnets where the situation is similar.)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 07:32 AM

"Can I download podcasts and programmes outside of the UK? "

The limitation on downloads from the BBC iplayer outside the UK appears to be that the bit rate is restricted to 92kbps or less which sounds pretty awful when compared with the 320kbps available within the UK, which sounds to tired ears as good as CD quality.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 10:50 AM

So patriot you are not going to listen to a programme that features many superb folk artists just because you don't like the singing of George Michael and Eddi Reader. I'm not keen on their singing either (just a personal taste thing rather than folk snobbery) but it wouldn't stope me listening to a programme about folk songs - such programmes are rare enough as it is so I certainly wouldn't dismiss them because they feature musicians people outside the folk world may have actually heard of

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM

Supreme folk snobbery isn't it, presumably he would like his "folk songs" performed by some bore with a voice like a bleating sheep!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 12:21 PM

Bonzo , we are all entitled to like different things.
would you like to explain how ashley hutchings stopped a great deal of folk music dying?
I would have nominated cecil sharp and various other collectors before Ashley Hutchings.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM

No I would not Sandman, I'll leave that for people with nothing to do.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:03 PM

BBC and other media groups have no b.. idea of what folkmusic is- Michael Morpurgo is a fine writer and an interest in folk music.
However, when I see such as George Michael and Eddi Reader performing 'folk' music, I am surely entitled to reject such an offering.

I'd reject a jazz programme featuring Acker Bilk for much the same reason- such choices of performer indicate how little the producers know about the music in question.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:10 PM

BONZO you made a statement that you cannot corroborate,

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:56 PM

If folks want MP3s at 320kbps then using a VPN with a UK DNS will do it. Best to opay for a VPN service to avoid intrusive ads.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 03:10 PM

So what are you going to do about it sandyman!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 03:18 PM

Thanks everybody. This has been such a constructive thread.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:14 PM

i agree henry, i think overall the programes have been good, and i look forward to listening on monday

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:30 PM

mY PostS Are a diSGracE,
mY tYpIng i'lL abandon,
mY upPeR AnD lOwEr CaSE
tHeY Just aPpEar At rAndoM.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:31 PM

DamN i missed the 100.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 06:52 PM

'However, when I see such as George Michael and Eddi Reader performing 'folk' music, I am surely entitled to reject such an offering.'

That seems extremely narrow minded of you. Eddie Reader (whose singing as I said earlier I am not keen on) has a great interest in folk music. Not sure about George Michael but perhaps he has. There is no reason why folk songs should not be sung by singers who have previously been, or who are currently, involved in pop music. There were a large number of well respected folk singers involved in the programme so to say 'such choices of performer indicate how little the producers know about the music in question' is quite frankly ridiculous

Your loss if you do not choose to listen to such excellent programmes

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 07:43 PM

as a source of radio programmes on the net "Radio Garden"is quite useful-a bit if listening shows that about half the world listens to western pop music interspersed with inane phone calls!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 05:44 AM

Joe G
      Eddi Reader has 'an interest in folk music' and you're 'not sure' about George Michael.
An 'interest' is not good enough for me, I'm afraid- I just detest the schmaltzy singing of ER & having had GM's singing inflicted on me many times without asking, I would prefer to remain in ignorance of how he would treat the MacColl classic! Why not use the writer's own version?

It's all a choice and I have no problem with pop singers doing folk songs, or the reverse!! but based on my preferences, why would I CHOOSE to listen to a programme containing such crap?

I'm sure Michael Morpurgo did a grand job of it, but for me, Radio 3 was my CHOICE & that's what it comes down to.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 05:49 AM

Went looking for the podcast of this on TuneIn Radio Pro, my internet radio of choice, which normally has podcasts of more or less everything, but nary a sign of it.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 07:28 AM

Well I'm sticking with it this far - it's better than nothing. Analyse and discuss!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 07:49 AM

i thought the programme about Graeme miles was better, but i appreciate any folk coverage, despite my criticism, so i will listen later

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:49 AM

Thompson, an aside - I'm looking at adding TuneIn to my quiver of streaming/Internet radio access apps (I had a $5 a month year on Sirius, but it jumps up to $20 a month soon, so I'm looking for streaming stations to replace their offerings) - how long have you used it, and how do you compare the free and the pro versions? Interesting that they have podcasts. Do they host them or are they tied into the other "usual" providers? (Stitcher, etc.) I may have to find an old or start a new thread on this topic.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: DaveRo
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 10:04 AM

Thompson wrote: Went looking for the podcast of this...

Some BBC programmes are issued as podcasts, some are not - the essential difference as far as the BBC is concerned is that you can download and keep podcasts. Some podcasts are edited versions of programmes, and some can be longer than the broadcast edition.

They usually, in my experience, don't make podcasts of programmes with music in them, because they don't have sufficient rights to the music. Sometimes they do - but fade or remove the music.

For example, Inside Science is available as a podcast: on its programme page you will see a Download button (in the UK, anyway):
Inside Science

Morgurgo's programme lacks the download button. It will have a 'Listen Now' button (in the UK, anyway) for as long as they make it available (one month?):
Michael Morpurgo - 10,000 miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 11:10 AM

Ah, today's is the final programme!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 11:12 AM

As for podcasts, God, yes; I downloaded a whole series of podcasts - can't remember if it was from the BBC or RTÉ - and the spoken part was there, but not the music, the rascals.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 12:20 PM

The programme pages currently say
"Available for over a year" which is good news.

Here's the link again for the BBC page with all the episodes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nllb/episodes/guide

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 03:37 PM

Thanks for that. Saw the 'over a year'. Read the track list, clicked sign in but didn't work here. Got a 'won't work' message. Not used iplayer since they made it a sign in thing so it's maybe that. Not to worry.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 05:32 PM

Tracklist and interviewed guests;

Folk journey 4/4

Bread and Roses; terrific finish to series specially recorded by Chris While, Julie Matthews, Georgina Boyes, Jim Boyes, Nancy Kerr, Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh & Rosie Hood.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 20 - 03:13 AM

Excellent programme, great points made about migrants. well done Karine.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Jan 21 - 06:35 AM

I've just, rather late on, started listening to episode 4, Paddy's Green Shamrock Shore (which seems to be about migration in general, not only from Ireland).

One speaker refers twice to people leaving Ireland in the 19th century to migrate to "the UK". Worse: that speaker sounds Irish himself. How can he not know that Ireland was part of the UK at that time? It's understandable that people from outside these islands get confused about England/Britain/the UK, but there's no excuse for a native to do so, and most especially not for an Irishman.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 07 Jan 21 - 08:08 AM

Maybe they're learning now about such distinctions, with borders going up beween Ireland and Britain & the term UK soon to be obsolete.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 21 - 02:16 PM

One speaker refers twice to people leaving Ireland in the 19th century to migrate to "the UK". Worse: that speaker sounds Irish himself. How can he not know that Ireland was part of the UK at that time?
quote richard mellish
you are missing the point entirely, richard, what the speaker is meaning, is that people had to leave ireland to emigrate , to what is now called the uk, they had to emigrate for several reasons, primarily
the british government., through political policies forced them to leave

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 05:22 AM

It always used to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland(since Scottish Union in 1707) -

see 'Sic a parcel of rogues for more on that). In c 1921 it was reduced to GB & Northern Ireland.

Soon to be reduced to the UK of Kensington & Chelsea.

Yes Sandman, indeed it was down to the English government that so many Irish emigrated here and to Canada, the US & down under.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: DaveRo
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 05:29 AM

1801, actually.

Acts of Union 1800

Doesn't affect the earlier discission, though.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 08:54 AM

The Act of Union was achieved with mass bribery of Irish peers; with typical British… thrift, it was then repaid out of the taxes raised in Ireland.
It was disastrous for Ireland, because the rich migrated to the new centre of power in London, reducing custom for craftspeople, farmers, retailers, etc; landlords became absentees with profit-grinding agents representing them.
The foundation of the Irish Free State in 1922 after the War of Independence created a partitioned island - with six counties, three of them less than willing, remaining in the United Kingdom and 26 in the new Free State.
In 1937 the country (the 26 counties) was named Ireland and effectively became a republic, with an elected non-executive president as head of state. It was officially declared a republic in 1949, on the enactment of the Republic of Ireland Act.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 09:00 AM

(Incidentally, that snip at British thrift of course refers to the British government, not to any English, Scottish or Welsh individuals, all of whom I've met have been generous, kind and honest.)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 11:07 AM

all true, Thompson, but there were plenty of Scottish lords who connived at the Act of Union.
As the song has it....
'We were bought and sold for English gold
   Sic' a parcel o' rogues in a nation'

it's about the Scottish lords who took the gold, NOT the English who bribed them.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 11:46 AM

Hm, true. Perhaps a little different in Ireland, where all of the bribed were politicians, therefore (at the time) by definition Protestant and Anglo-Irish rather than the native stock.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 05:26 AM

Dick,
> you are missing the point entirely, richard, what the speaker is meaning, is that people had to leave ireland to emigrate

I did understand that point. What I am complaining about was the sloppy reference to "the UK". You can't migrate to "the UK" if you already live in the UK, as the inhabitants of Ireland did at that time. The migration was to Britain (and other countries).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 02:30 AM

Starts 20.00 tonight BBC Radio 4 How the Irish shaped Britain.

In this series Fergal Keane explores the profound influence the Irish have had on Britain over many centuries, from the vanished tribes of the ancient Celtic world to the Ryanair generation of today. The telling of the story of Britain and Ireland has been dominated by narratives of conquest and rebellion in which a powerful empire attempts to subdue an indomitable native spirit – two different identities colliding throughout history. Fergal presents a more complex narrative.

Today 20.00 Monday 11 January 1/3 Kingdoms of the Broad Sea
He begins with the old kingdoms of the Irish Sea, and travels through the time of the Vikings to the 19th and 20th century migrations, all the way to present day. Throughout the Irish have shaped literature, culture, politics and the physical landscape.

Whether it is 19th century theatre or verse, or today’s pop culture, Irish migrants and their descendants have deeply influenced and steered the UK’s literature and arts. Think of Oscar Wilde and George Bernard Shaw or, more recently, the Beatles, the Sex Pistols, Oasis, or Terry Wogan, Paul Merton, Claire Foy, the Irish and their descendants have had a profound influence on Britishness. The Irish have also been highly influential in the world of business, politics and sport.
As migration, integration and assimilation dominate public debate in Britain, Fergal examines the impact of the longest and biggest immigrant story in the history of the United Kingdom.

20.00 Monday 18 January 2/3 In this episode we begin with the years of the Great Famine. Millions leave Ireland, many of them heading for the port cities of Britain, where they are far from welcome. But soon they become an integral part of the workforce in the factories and shipyards of Scotland and England. Then, in the second half of the 19th century, Irish Fenians, partly in revenge for the famine, launch the first terrorist bombing campaign to hit these shores.

In parallel with that, Irish MPs flex their muscles in Westminster; while on the cultural stage Irish playwrights and writers are bringing the 'English language back to the English'. It’s a pattern that stretches through the decades, to the reconstruction of Britain’s bombed out cities after World War Two and the building of a more modern Britain in the 1950s and 1960s, with the successors of the Irish navvies digging their way underground. Irish descendants also begin to shape the British musical scene.

It’s a tale of rejection and assimilation, of hatred and tolerance, of separateness and of mixing. In the story of how the Irish shaped Britain, as Fergal points out, there are all kinds of narratives and counter-narratives being told at the same time.

20.00 Monday 25 January 3/3 Fergal Keane explores the profound influence the Irish have had on Britain.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 02:56 AM

thanks for the heads up

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 05:55 AM

Fergal Keane is the ideal man for this- listen and learn, but we're a long way from Michael Morpurgo

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 07:30 AM

There's a piece on Fergal Keane in the Radio Times if you happen to have that. "From monks to musicians..." - and a picture of Lennon & McCartney!

I can't find that online, but this is worth reading:
Fergal Keane: 'My grandmum joined the IRA and my great-grandfather was an RIC sergeant'

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 04:28 PM

Fergal Keane: My family and the empire's complex legacy BBC News Published 9 July 2020

My family

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 21 - 10:46 AM

intersting that Oliver Cromwell was of irish extraction

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:43 AM

Wednesday 20 Jan 11.00am BBC Radio 4
How the Irish Shaped Britain 2/3 McAlpine's Fusiliers

Monday 25 Jan 8.00pm BBC Radio 4
Wednesday 27 Jan 11.00am BBC Radio 4
How the Irish Shaped Britain 3/3 The Long Road to Peace

Fergal Keane completes his exploration of the profound influence of the Irish on Britain, from reconstruction after the Second World War, through the hard road to peace and onto the uncertainty posed by Brexit.
Following in the footsteps of earlier generations of migrants, hundreds of thousands of Irish came to Britain in the 20th Century, rebuilding shattered cities, putting in new infrastructure, working in the NHS. Some faced hardship and racist abuse, particularly during the difficult times of IRA bombs on the British mainland. Others flourished, bringing innovation and rebellion, shaping the music scene and politics.
The Good Friday Agreement heralded a time of hope and good relations across the Irish Sea, with the Queen's first ever visit to Ireland as a potent symbol of that. Meanwhile many of the Irish and their descendants in Britain put a difficult past behind them and looked to the future. Derogatory Paddy jokes fell out of favour. However, the UK's decision to leave the European Union has, as Fergal hears, unsettled what many thought was settled. Following the hard road to peace, uncertainty has returned.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 05:06 AM

Thanks henryp, I found last weeks very interesting