BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 06:34 AM

Another 4pm today, Mon 2nd Nov must remember

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:59 AM

he used to play a lot of blind blake , very raggy ragtime.
i know he named himself after blind willie mctell. ralph blake is not got anything more to offer than his real name ralph may.
McTell's guitar playing has been modelled on the style of the US's country blues guitar players of the early 20th century, including Blind Blake, Robert Johnson and Blind Willie McTell.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM

Just listened to episode three. Some nice music and interesting discussion, but where was the credit for Nic Jones, not just for the recording of his that was played, but for rewriting the version of 'Ten Thousand Miles' that was the centre-piece of the programme? The only reason that the line 'You've been a friend to me' - which was described as key to the song - is in there at all is because Nic took that verse from one Appalachian version in Cecil Sharp's collection, and spliced it into another version that he used as his template. I know it's not primarily a programme about the history of the songs, but really that kind of revival recreation should be acknowledged. I felt much the same about MacColl's 'Four Loom Weaver' in the previous episode.

There was some discussion of the reticence of modern 'folk' songwriters in composing love songs, which I think missed the point that old broadside ballads like 'Ten Thousand Miles' were not actually personal statements of affection, but generalised expressions of emotion based on formulaic metaphors which would appeal to as many buyers as possible. It's the songs that say things like 'my girlfriend dumped me, and I'm so miserable' that some people find self-indulgent.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM

Complaints to the BBC about missing credits can be made here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

====

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM

I guess all exposure is worthwhile. Less intrusion this time though I'd assume the series was all made in one go.
I enjoyed hearing Nic Jones again.
BBC of late is re-broadcasting lots of old shows as new production will be difficult. They might have made these into three quarter hour programmes by including longer song clips, these were often only a line or so.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 05:08 PM

some uninformed discussion,
I do not think MacColl considered First time ever as a Folk song, i must contact Jim Carroll and ask him.
K Polwart, WHAT A SILLY BILLY, QUOTE.. A POP SINGER WAS ABLE TO SING A LOVE SONG WITH PATHOS,BECAUSE HE WAS NOT FROM A FOLK BACKGROUND.
This must rate as an entry for Pseuds Corner are folk singers a different species?do they not have Relationships?
What a load of Squit
if Karen Polwart sees this,
I cordially invite her to my next gig and i will sing her love songs, i am a singer from a folk back ground.
I have heard some love songs sung with passion and pathos by a number of different folk singers.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

I'd rather hear Dave Burland singing 'First time ever' or Roberta Flack but I wouldn't like the job of picking illustrations. I AM a fan of Burns songs. Everyone's label of Folk is different.
I hope there is another series for the publicity. Plenty eerie imaginings and ghastly events in song to cover.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 10:40 AM

Interesting reactions to the third programme in this series particularly the one from Brian Peters.

My own reaction was that it was the best of the three so far and it threw different lights of both the traditional and modern love songs. Three of the female contributors, Nancy Kerr, Karine Polwart (please note spelling) and Nicola Kearey all talked in different ways about their difficulty with singing straightforward love songs from a modern feminist perspective because so often the cheated or abandoned woman is left powerless and with no means of redress. I found what Nancy had to say about The Turtle Dove / Ten Thousand Miles very interesting. Brian wrote above about the "spliced" version that Nic Jones recorded; Nancy's version from her 1997 (Turtle Dove from the Fellside CD Starry Gazy Pie.) is also from a number of sources. Here's what the CD notes say: -

A song made up of tags from other ballads, collected in Kentucky from “Singing Willie” Nolan. The words are more or less as E.K. Wells printed in The Ballad Tree, but Nancy altered the melody and time signature, and added a final verse.

but this is the process that many folk songs go through in the hands of folk revivalists.
Karine talked about the fate of women in ballads and how love often turns to grief for them in ballads. She gave the of example of one that I love singing Clerk Saunders & May Margaret but also talked about the lingering impact of the wonderful love songs of Robert Burns on Scottish culture and about how often they are still sung at weddings and funerals.
My Scottish mother left a letter with my sister saying that it was to be opened straight after her death, A lot of it was about how much she loved and felt proud of each of her four children, her six grandchildren and the three great-grandchildren that she lived to see. There were also explicit instructions about how her funeral was to be conducted. I was to give the eulogy as well as to sing Burns' My Luve's Like A Red, Red Rose which, of course, draws on The Turtle Dove. I just about got through it with Tina's fine concertina accompaniment and the feeling of support that I felt oozing into me from her - but I have never dared to sing it in public since.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 10:57 AM

the programme was however thought provoking, unlike Vic i preferred the other two, THE MUSIC, imo was variable in all three from excellent most of the time to occasionally mediocre.
I preferred the background approach of the first and second,which in my opinion was better informed and from which i learned more.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 11:32 AM

incidentally ,i am in a state of shock ,i went busking today in Bantry, and thought i would sing some english love songs. well first a guy cam by and sked me about the song , isang,and said it sounded like something martin carthy would sing so i chatted a bit more and he said he saw martin carthy in ballydehob 2 years ago , i said really well i organised that concert. so we talked a bit more and i started playing and sang adieu swet lovely nancy, game of all fours, seeds of love,
and    i could see a woman listening for about 15 minutes. she came over and said.. your a great singer, here something for christmas and slipped something in my pocket, i said thanks, when she had gone, i looked ,i could not believe it, it was 2 50 euro notes.what a kind generous person
, i am still shocked, i have never been given anything like that, somebody liked a folk singer singing love songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:08 PM

Dick wrote
K Polwart, WHAT A SILLY BILLY, QUOTE.. A POP SINGER WAS ABLE TO SING A LOVE SONG WITH PATHOS,BECAUSE HE WAS NOT FROM A FOLK BACKGROUND.
This must rate as an entry for Pseuds Corner are folk singers a different species?do they not have Relationships?
What a load of Squit if Karen Polwart sees this, I cordially invite her to my next gig....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions will differ. However, if you are going to criticise what people said, you really need to make sure that you are quoting them accurately and giving the correct context. Here is an accurate transcription of what Karine said on the programme:-

...heard him sing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" and I actually came on the stage weeping. I just had to take a moment to stop and compose myself because it was so beautiful.... interesting to me that the person at that gig who managed to pull of the maximum pathos was the lead singer of a pop band, not a folk musician. I think that he was able to inhabit that with total conviction; no sense of embarrassment was because he was not from a folk background. He was from a pop background. He was able to do that and really nail it in a way that might not sit so comfortably with a folk singer.

To me she is talking about the way the way he approached the song. Peggy Seeger sung a snatch on the programme as if it were a folk song. Roberta Flack sung it with her background as a soul diva. Paul Buchanan obviously found a way of interpreting the song that got to Karine. All a matter of reactions and opinions.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:33 PM

Of course Vic and it is my opinion that she is mistaken, furthermore i have heard many good renditions of love songs from folksingers with a folk back ground.
How i was quoting her incorrectly, i think you are being pedantic.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:42 PM

As you know, Dick. I do not get into arguments on Mudcat. If you need further clarification on this, we will have to do it on a Private Message basis.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM

and for the record i do not think MacColl considered that song to be a folk song.
Iknow that singers from a folk background can sing love songs that are not folk songs, one of the best was dusty springfield, of course only my opinion Vic

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 01:20 PM

Again I thoroughly enjoyed the programme. Some interesting opinions and insight especially from Nancy Kerr.

Just one little quibble, The Turtle Dove is much older than the 1700s, so the researchers haven't really done their job thoroughly. There are 2 quite different ballads from as far back at least as 1680 that contain most of the verses and in these there is further evidence that these verses had been lifted from something earlier.

The idea that folk ballads are mostly impersonal and third person is very true. That is an essential part of their nature. But that doesn't stop them from being beautiful works of art and occasionally expressing amazing truths. Whilst most folksongs are ballads there is still a sizable chunk of lyric pieces and many of these are laments that employ a wide range of commonplaces, as does The Turtle Dove.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 02:07 PM

Yes, I agree that Nancy talked a lot of sense, and many of us who interpret traditional songs make exactly the kind of choices she was describing. I also thought Karine Polwart had a good point about the power of songs describing forbidden love across a class divide.

What I was thinking about before was the section in which Blair Dunlop spoke about the folk world frowning on personally-centred songs - which 'The Turtle dove' is not. Bu Steve G is quite right that even formulae can have enormous power and beauty.

Also I agree with Dick that 'First Time' isn't really written in the folk idiom, so it's no more surprising that Paul Buchanan would have been able to make a good job of it than that Roberta Flack did.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM

Vic respectfully i might suugest that if you want a private discussion,it would have been better to send your.. 3 nov 12 08 post by private message,
formulae can have power and beauty i remeber discussing with my local butcher the fields of athenry[a song i am not very keen upon] he said to me but when you sing it with 50thousand others at a rugby international it becomes something else, iwould have loved to hear that mighty singer dusty springfield [from a folk background] singing first time ever i sa your face

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 03:38 PM

Hi Brian
I think the idea that the folk world frowns upon personally centred songs is rather too simplistic and overstated. If those sort of songs are presented in an accessible way and they are good songs we can all identify with then there is not a problem. I think it is a wider issue than that. A lot of poetry and song is so personal and meaningful only to the writer so that it is difficult to empathise with. When you are out for an evening's entertainment the last thing you want to be asking is what the hell was that about?

Folk songs that have long been in oral tradition have their gaps in leaping and lingering and often they leave the gaps to the imagination of the listener, but those songs don't last long if they don't have some meaning to the listener.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:02 PM

next weeks programme songs about emigration?i hope the great song isle de france is included

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:45 PM

Transportation or crime and punishment in general is a further possible topic.
We may have to thank covid for these programmes. I'm guessing the BBC has all sorts in the cupboard that they are bringing out as new production is difficult

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:54 AM

I think you're a bit optimistic there, JHW- the BBC is not noted for retaining tapes, videos etc-

They often beg for, and also receive scratchy copies of old programmes which they simply threw out or recorded over!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 01:47 PM

Ewan did not consider any of his songs folk songs, so Jim Carroll informs me so why Morpurgo included in it his folk journey, is mystifying since it is not a folk song but then ashley hutchings effort in the second programme should not have been included either.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 02:15 PM

The Turtle Dove by Birl Ives ...

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mb4c0kepi5ygbj1/25._Burl_Ives_Hally_Wood_-_The_Turtle_Dove.mp3

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 03:26 PM

Burl Ives

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 04:04 PM

The series is not restricted to traditional folk songs!

"With help from singers, songwriters and other passionate experts, Michael admires the indelible stories within classic songs that deal with migration, war, protest and love. Over the four themed episodes, Michael considers the locations and historical contexts that gave rise to much-loved traditional songs, and finds out how the same topics are inspiring new folk songs in the 2020s."

Next week, the BBC Radio 2 Folk Show falls on Armistice Day and Mark presents a special mix of songs about war and peace. This week/tonight it features Rachel Newton.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:14 PM

but since MacColl [who knew more about folk song] than the producer of this programme thought his own songs were not folk songs, who is deciding that these songs such as" first time ever", and the offering by hutchings is a new folk song.
who are these experts that clearly have never heard of the 1954 definition, they would do better to call them new.. art songs . because a song is sung at a folk club or folk festival that doesnot make it a folk song, a case in point are songs by buddy holly [remember andy caven]
somebody in the bbc who does not seem properly informed is stating that some recently composed songs, such as first time ever are folk songs. bullshit

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:26 PM

and before anyone comes and says its folk music because they like it.
i happen to like Thelonius Monk, but he is not folk he was a be bop jazz man, i happen to like Beethoven but he was not a folk musician he was a good classical composer.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 12:34 AM

however i appreciate radio4 putting these programjmes on ,thankyou

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,ColinWB
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:01 AM

Very interesting to find a website talking about English folk music; living in Spain prevents me getting BBC Sounds so no chance for Radio 2's folk programmes. Has anyone a suggestion for other websites that discuss / highlight English folk music old, contemporary, commercial ? Many tks...adios!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM

Hi Colin, I'm a fan of Mainly Norfolk.

Lots of info about artists and song history, with plenty of Youtube and other links.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 07:37 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/listening-outside-the-uk/download-overseas

Can I download podcasts and programmes outside of the UK? You can download most podcasts on the BBC Sounds app or from the BBC Sounds website from outside of the UK. Some can only be downloaded within the UK due to rights agreements which prevent us from making the content available internationally. Music and sports programmes are most likely to be restricted. You can't download radio programmes on the BBC Sounds app from outside the UK. Again, this is due to rights restrictions.

https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/mobile-phones/1404928/how-to-listen-to-bbc-radio-abroad

If - for some reason - you can't download or access the app, then one of best alternatives is a free app called British Radios (Android, iOS). This app lets you listen to most of the live BBC radio stations, and other radio stations like Heart, Magic and Absolute Radio without paying a penny. Another app that does a similar job is TuneIn Radio (Android, iOS) but this works on the freemium model, meaning you'll need to pay to remove ads and unlock other content.

If you're using a PC or laptop to listen to radio within Google's Chrome browser and don't want to navigate around the BBC Sounds website, then you can enhance your listening experience using the unofficial BBC Radio Tuner extension for Google Chrome. This lets you flip between the BBC's main radio channels via a simple selector on Chrome's toolbar.

Occasionally, a BBC radio broadcast, whether live or on catch-up, will be replaced by a recorded message telling you that "due to rights restrictions this part of the programme is unavailable" - or something to that effect. This most often applies to coverage of sports and other live events that the BBC only has the licence to broadcast within the UK.

The easiest way to work around such restrictions is by using a VPN. Two of our current favourite VPN services are ExpressVPN and Surfshark VPN. Both cater to different budgets, but will unlock any geo-restricted content - whether it's BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds regardless of where in the globe you want to access your broadcast from.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 08:26 AM

Thanks to Brian and Henry. Indeed, I can get Radio 4 both live and on Sounds, am listening to Morpurgo's third episode now ( if any one elsewhere wants to know what we're talking about - it's at    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000p1v3 )

I'll try the other methods of listening, Ta muchly.

---

Guest, please give yourself a name to use when posting and use it consistently. And if you wish to join, send an email to [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 05:12 PM

Tracklists here;

1/4 Johnny I hardly knew ye

2/4 Four Loom Weaver

3/4 Ten Thousand Miles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 04:03 AM

Thanks henryp!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:10 AM

The list was useful- George Michael and Eddi Reader!!    celebs rule!!!
saves me wasting my time listening....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:42 AM

Went to the magnificent Blair Dunlop Band webcast gig last night, in our living room. Excellent folk value for only £8, great self penned folk songs!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 06:03 AM

And without Ashley Hutchings, a great deal of folk music would have died years ago.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 06:42 AM

1. On this thread, let's steer well clear of the subject of which songs are folk songs.

2. The pop world is largely a closed book to me, but we get exposed to some of it willy nilly as muzak. Many of the songs there and some that turn up in singarounds (live or currently on Zoom) are the sort characterised by Brian as 'my girlfriend dumped me, and I'm so miserable'.

My problem with those is not the scenario, which is a common enough part of the human condition and a perfectly good subject for songs, but the preponderance of the word "you", as if the singer is singing to the ex-lover, despite that person being absent by definition. We can perhaps imagine the song as a letter to the ex-lover, but that seems the wrong format for the singer to be telling us their woes (or vicariously the woes of someone else). Traditional songs on this theme are either couched in the third person ("I heard a maid lament ...") or if first person are addressed to the world at large "'Tis how my love slights me ...").

In "The first time ever" no-one has been dumped and the sentiment is very positive, but otherwise the same applies. As a personal statement from Ewan to Peggy it was excellent, but I have trouble seeing its point when it is sung by someone else to an audience. (However I acknowledge that people enjoy reading Shakespeare's sonnets where the situation is similar.)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 07:32 AM

"Can I download podcasts and programmes outside of the UK? "

The limitation on downloads from the BBC iplayer outside the UK appears to be that the bit rate is restricted to 92kbps or less which sounds pretty awful when compared with the 320kbps available within the UK, which sounds to tired ears as good as CD quality.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 10:50 AM

So patriot you are not going to listen to a programme that features many superb folk artists just because you don't like the singing of George Michael and Eddi Reader. I'm not keen on their singing either (just a personal taste thing rather than folk snobbery) but it wouldn't stope me listening to a programme about folk songs - such programmes are rare enough as it is so I certainly wouldn't dismiss them because they feature musicians people outside the folk world may have actually heard of

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM

Supreme folk snobbery isn't it, presumably he would like his "folk songs" performed by some bore with a voice like a bleating sheep!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 12:21 PM

Bonzo , we are all entitled to like different things.
would you like to explain how ashley hutchings stopped a great deal of folk music dying?
I would have nominated cecil sharp and various other collectors before Ashley Hutchings.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM

No I would not Sandman, I'll leave that for people with nothing to do.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:03 PM

BBC and other media groups have no b.. idea of what folkmusic is- Michael Morpurgo is a fine writer and an interest in folk music.
However, when I see such as George Michael and Eddi Reader performing 'folk' music, I am surely entitled to reject such an offering.

I'd reject a jazz programme featuring Acker Bilk for much the same reason- such choices of performer indicate how little the producers know about the music in question.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:10 PM

BONZO you made a statement that you cannot corroborate,

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 01:56 PM

If folks want MP3s at 320kbps then using a VPN with a UK DNS will do it. Best to opay for a VPN service to avoid intrusive ads.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 03:10 PM

So what are you going to do about it sandyman!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 03:18 PM

Thanks everybody. This has been such a constructive thread.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:14 PM

i agree henry, i think overall the programes have been good, and i look forward to listening on monday

Subject: RE: BBC Radio4 - Morpurgo's Folk Journeys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Nov 20 - 05:30 PM

mY PostS Are a diSGracE,
mY tYpIng i'lL abandon,
mY upPeR AnD lOwEr CaSE
tHeY Just aPpEar At rAndoM.