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Origins: Dives and Lazarus

DigiTrad:
DIVERS AND LAZARUS
LAZARUS
LAZARUS
THE RICH MAN AND THE POOR MAN


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GUEST,Rahere 04 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Jerry 04 Nov 20 - 07:04 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Nov 20 - 03:40 PM
The Doctor 11 Nov 20 - 10:56 AM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,RA 11 Nov 20 - 11:59 AM
Newport Boy 11 Nov 20 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Dave Hunt 11 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM
Joe Offer 11 Nov 20 - 03:23 PM
The Doctor 12 Nov 20 - 05:29 AM
The Sandman 14 Nov 20 - 04:34 AM
The Doctor 14 Nov 20 - 05:50 AM
Jack Campin 14 Nov 20 - 07:05 AM
Joe Offer 16 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM
Brian Peters 16 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM
Tattie Bogle 17 Nov 20 - 01:30 PM
Brian Peters 18 Nov 20 - 09:13 AM
Tattie Bogle 18 Nov 20 - 01:34 PM
GerryM 18 Nov 20 - 05:05 PM
Brian Peters 19 Nov 20 - 08:53 AM
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Subject: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM

Now yes, I know RVW collected it in Norfolk, made a set of 5 variations on it in classical orchestral form, and the rest, but it remains a niggle, that some Victorian's taken a decent tune and wiped the words out, putting something "learnèd" and biblical and worthy in their place. A cross between Christina Rosetti and the Reverend Bowdler. I can't help but want to use a metrical equivalent, John Barleycorn, instead!
Any other ideas, though? What other words could have been used?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 07:04 PM

Not sure what you’re actually asking here, but the basic melody has been used in numerous folk songs from The Unquiet Grave to The Star of the County Down, plus some gospel songs and hymns, ad I recall.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 03:40 PM

'some Victorian's taken a decent tune and wiped the words out, putting something "learnèd" and biblical and worthy in their place.'

Really? How do you know that the 16th century versions of D&L weren't using that tune? Whatever the tune they used the well-known ballad predates Victorian times.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: The Doctor
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:56 AM

I have copies of this ballad in four different books, all of which agree that it was first seen in print in 1558. However, the only one to quote the tune in question is the Oxfor Book of Carols, and then only as an alternative. It was set by RVW to the hymn 'I heard the voice of jesus say' (words H Bonar 1808-89), along with many other folk tunes he used when he edited the English Hymnal in 1906.

This can also happen in the opposite direction. I was once singing 'The Blacksmith' to its usual tune, and a lady got up and walked out, muttering darkly about the sacrilage of using a hymn tune for a folk song.

Personally I think it's a great tune and you sing which ever words appeal to you.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM

Hi, Doctor. Your point is well made. If a hymn works with a folk melody, why not? What hymn goes to the tune of"The Blacksmith," or vice versa?
The story is often told of how the comic lyrics of "Ilkley Moor" made a laughingstock of a perfectly good hymn. And why not?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:59 AM

I remember reading somewhere a long time ago (not sure where and I can't find the source just now) that the common 'Dives and Lazarus' melody was part of a very ancient pan-European tune family and that there were, for example, tunes in Romania etc with related melodies... anyone know anything about that?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Newport Boy
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:02 PM

AL Lloyd in 'Folk Song in England', immediately after discussing 'Dives & Lazarus' in depth, goes on to a discussion of tunes migrating between countries. He cites an unnamed tune found 'in a Rumanian funeral lament, a Hungarian love song, a Dutch hymn, a Spanish ballad and a highwayman song sung by an elderly couple...in Sussex'. I don'r recall anything more specific than that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM

the tune for Ilkley Moor is one of the many tunes used in the Sheffield Carols for 'While Shepherds Watched'


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:23 PM

Hi, Dave - the tune used for "Ilkley Moor" is CRANBROOK. The oldest lyrics to the tune are Grace, 'Tis a Charming Sound. That's the one that's no longer used since the advent of "Ilkley Moor." "While Shepherds Watched" is still sung to CRANBROOK. I'm surprised that CRANBOOK is not used in any of the hymns in The English Hymnal

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: The Doctor
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 05:29 AM

Hi Joe
The tune for 'The Blacksmith' is in hymnbooks under the name of Monksgate, which as far as I remember was the village where it was collected. It was slightly adapted by RVW and set to the words 'Who would true valour see/He who would valiant be', also known as The Pilgrim Hymn.

Incidentally, RVW used nearly 50 English trad melodies in the English Hymnal, of which I have identified about 10, including The Bold Fisherman and The Ploughboy's Dream. If anyone can add any more to this list I'd be interested.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 04:34 AM

ah, a grumbling old woman, she was possibly suffering from digestive problems, some people are just grumblers, and Doctor you might have just been unlucky enough to run in to a grumbler, perhaps she needed the services of dyna rod. I hope you are keeping well Doctor


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: The Doctor
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 05:50 AM

Thank you Sandman, I am still here, alive and kicking, if more feebly than once.
All this has reminded me that I also sing two songs to the tune called St Denis in the hymnbooks, where it is set to 'Immortal, invisible', and given as a Welsh hymn tune, though Mary Humphreys thinks it was originally a dance tune. The songs, btw, are Bold Princess Royal and The Wimbourne Valentine, which latter song no-one at the Wimbourne Folk Club had heard of.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 07:05 AM

It's sad that so few religious folksongs survived the Reformation. Southern European folk music is full of them, and Biblical folktales are common in mediaeval English poetry. Rather than a product of Victorian censoriousness, Dives and Lazarus is a rare survival of Elizabethan repression.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM

Sure enough, here's a recording of "He Who Would Valiant Be" (The Pilgrim Hymn):
Do I understand correctly that it was written by John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim's Progress?

And yes, it's the melody I know for "The Blacksmith."

-Joe-

Here are the notes from the video. The tune and lyrics were not coupled together until the early 20th century:

    "To be a Pilgrim" (also commonly known as "He would Valiant be" is the only hymn John Bunyan is credited with writing but is indelibly associated with him. It first appeared in Part 2 of Pilgrim's Progress, written in 1684 while he was serving a twelve-year sentence in Bedford Gaol on a charge of preaching without a licence. The hymn recalls the words of Hebrews 11:13: "...and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

    The words were modified extensively by Percy Dearmer for the 1906 The English Hymnal. At the same time it was given a new tune by British composer Vaughan Williams using the traditional Sussex melody "Monk's Gate". The hymn has also been sung to the melody "Moab" (John Roberts, 1870) and St. Dunstans (Charles W. Douglas, 1917).

    Bunyan's original version is not commonly sung in churches today, perhaps because of the references to "hobgoblin" and "foul fiend." However, one commentator has said: "Bunyan's burly song strikes a new and welcome note in our Hymnal. The quaint sincerity of the words stirs us out of our easygoing dull Christianity to the thrill of great adventure."

    The hymn's refrain "to be a pilgrim" has entered the language and has been used in the title of a number of books dealing with pilgrimage in a literal or spiritual sense.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM

Vaughan Williams actually collected the tune he used for 'He Who Would Valiant Be' with the song 'Our Captain Calls All Hands', though it's also used for 'The Blacksmith'.

It was my favourite hymn at school precisely because of the goblins and foul fiends. Much more fun than angels in the realms of glory.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 01:30 PM

Hobgoblins I think, Brian! I loved that line too!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 09:13 AM

'Hobgoblins I think, Brian!'

I stand corrected. Are they a higher rank than ordinary goblins? Kind of like the uruk-hai?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 01:34 PM

Probably! Googled it:
"While a goblin is traditionally regarded in folklore as a grotesque, evil, and malicious creature, a hobgoblin tends to be more about creating mischief. ... First appearing in English in 1530, "hobgoblin" combined "goblin" with "hob," a word meaning "sprite" or "elf" that derived from "Hobbe," a nickname for Robert."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: GerryM
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 05:05 PM

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...." Ralph Waldo Emerson.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Dives and Lazarus
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:53 AM

Fascinating!


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