BS: A person of color and a colored person

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM

Someone could also be a far right English nationalist nutcase
covered head to toe with England flags and pure ethnicity tattoos...

Social media is infested with 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 11:27 AM

Well, it does depend on the context - you might be 'English' by ethnicity without being 'British' in the political sense ... no?

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: BobL
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 03:11 AM

I am English not British
PEDANT ALERT
Well, England is both geographically and politically part of Great Britain, which is part of Europe. Therefore if you are English you are also British, and European.
/ALERT

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Nov 20 - 12:15 AM

A word isn't bad in and of itself. What matters is the sentiment behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 09:12 PM

I remember the niggardly episode. Some folks need to get their heads out of their ignoranuses.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:28 PM

Alaska is quite interesting in the large indigenous population that has made this part of the world their home for thousands of years. I had a job that took me into what we call "The Bush" but consists of up to sixty towns or villages that can only be reached by aircraft, boat, or sled-team. They are diversified into two main types: "Eskimos" and "Indians". If you are uncertain of whom you are dealing with, you use the term "Native". Alaska has also adopted a term that maybe came from Canada: "First Families". As part of the evolving nature of language and social movements, I detect a move away from the term Eskimo, particularly among the younger generation. It doesn't get used or printed very much.
For years I worked for a company owned by a Native Corporation, which displayed many posters and had many native language messages of cultural pride. This was shared, not imposed, and I went to seminars where Native concepts of family and language were taught. Maybe the most important thing to learn was that we are all subject to change and development regardless of our origina. We are all being in one way or another dragged into the present by the changing nature of the world. the realization that we are all subject to these forces and that we can assist each other in meeting the changes is a constant source of my optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:21 PM

Us Brits could get in awkward trouble in some places
for innocently exclaiming "Knickers" at any trivial annoyance..

Some folks are determined to hear what they want to hear...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: ripov
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:18 PM

well said sandman-and isn't it diffinult to find that on a standardised form? As Folkies we're all very concious of our nations heritage,and aware of how it differs from that of the neighbouring tribes

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:13 PM

In the United States referring to people as 'colored' was once upon a time, that time being the first half of the Twentieth century, a supposedly innocuous reference. Persons who I know to be liberal and in no wise bigoted grew up with that terminology and used it throughout their lives. About the fifties and thereafter that term shifted to 'negro'. The book "Black Like Me" came out in 1964. These terms and their usages changed at different times in different social venues, media formats, and timeframes. The term 'people of color' is I think a kind of rounding of the circle on this terminology.

In Britain the language has developed its own terms in its own eras. I remember that the n-word showed up in Gilbert & Sullivan lyrics (The Mikado)* and was when written in the latter part of the nineteenth century not put in as a pejorative. In a similar trans-Atlantic dichotomy, the word 'bloody' was considered unmentionable in English polite society for the longest time, with no similar understanding in the States. Going back to Gilbert & Sullivan, they had a work called "Ruddigore" which was a bit risky because of its similar meaning and rhyme.

I don't know enough of the ramifications of the OPs news brief, but harm can come from using a term one hears on one side of the pond without some cross-checking. Also our language is in a state of ferment and there are people who are:
1) Easily riled
2) Eager to lead the charge of change
3) Not patient enough to investigate the motives of the apparent offender.

There was a case of a student who yelled "water buffalo" at some folks he thought were making a lot of innappropriate racket. I think he escaped just barely getting thrown out of school. He thought he was escaping making a racial epithet. The offended said that the motive was clear precisely because he made that verbal substitution.

There was a case where someone got in trouble in the states for using the word 'niggardly'.

A lot of this stuff sounds foolish. But it highlights the importance of motivation and intention, and the perception of same. If you were referring to 'colored people' in the U.S. in the 1970s it had ramifications on how old you were, how you were using the word, what part of the country you were in, and the expression on your face. And most definitely your audience.

*The Gilbert & Sullivan authors and publishers long ago changed that lyric to get rid of the n-word. Like a hundred years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 02:22 PM

I am English not British

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 02:01 PM

I've posted about this before, but it's pertinent now.
I've encountered a few white South Africans who were very unpleasant in their racism. They would use the word 'blex' (ie 'blacks' in their S African accent) In Ghana (Accra) some South African hotel managers were talking in my presence about 'these useless blex' and how 'stupid they are, you can't trust a bleck to do anything properly' etc. I seethed.
And the new pupil who arrived in my classroom from South Africa and announced loudly, "I daon't sit nixt to blex!" when the only free seat was beside an Indian lad.
In these sort of contexts, the word 'black' has inherent disparaging and racist connotations.
But I'm so proud of my BLACK husband and his wonderful family. He isn't 'a person of colour' or a 'coloured person'. He's BLACK!!

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM

Early 1980s, I used to live in a shared student house in St Pauls in Bristol.
Not too long after the St Pauls 'race' riots.
St Pauls popularly considered as being a deprived inner city 'ghetto'.

One of my 'house mates' was a very middle class white christian social work student.
His friends on his course were very similar.

They reeked of condescending evangelical missionary paternalism
in their attitude to the poor underclass folks
they would eventually be inflicted upon...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 10:04 AM

in book about a woman who taught native Americans back in the 1930's and had negative encounters with overly officious people who wanted to rip these children from their families, she referred to them as disapproving do-gooders

they didn't care about their clients as much as they cared about pushing their own agenda and the power it gave them

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 09:33 AM

Me: Knock knock!
Mom: Who's there?
Me: Control freak...now you say: Control freak who?
Mom: Control freak who?

True story.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 10:24 AM

I've no problems at all with being called a "Brit".

What I do have a problem with is control freak individuals and groups
who wallow in taking excessive offence at the slightest petty trigger words..

They are an increasing blight on humanity...


[btw.. this does not imply any support for FA chief Greg Clarke.
He sounds like a right out of touch old buffoon,
and has done the right thing by resigning...]

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM

I remember my mother mentioning a few times that 'Brit' was said with a bit of a sneer in Canada during the war years, when there were more Brits around than usual. How aware of this the Brits in question were, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 09:37 AM

And just a wee note to Tunesmith he wasn't the head of football in the UK. There is no such position. He was Chairman of the Football Association which governs the game in England. Not throughout the UK. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 09:30 AM

Mind it isn't raelly true that he only resigned for saying "coloured" when referring to black players. There was a list of things that he said that showed at best he is out of touch. Women players don't like the ball being kicked at them! There wasn't an issue of black people being under-represented in certain depts because it was simply due to them having different career choices. And that being gay was a lifestyle choice.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 08:27 AM

Absolutely agree, Nigel. And I correct people similarly.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM

'Brit' has no negative connotations for me. But I do correct people from other countries if they describe me as 'English'.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 07:02 AM

It's even stranger than the thread suggests.

As Bill D might have mentioned, the civil-rights organization NAACP, founded in 1909, is still going strong.

The full name has always been "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People."

I've never heard of any serious move to change the name.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:22 PM

Clinton's Secretary of Labor Robert Reich posted this on Twitter November 7:

Donald Trump built his real estate empire evicting people of color.
Today, people of color evicted Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 07:40 PM

Yeah.. all Earthlings... who have fought with OTHER Earthlings for eons. Some say that evolution requires struggle and conquest, and 'to the winner, the spoils'. Not a very scientific concept, but when there are limits of food, water, living space...etc, it's hard to avoid that thought.

"If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister>"

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 06:42 PM

We are all Earthlings.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:31 PM

My experience of prejudice in the 1960s was when we went to a department store with a Trinidadian friend to buy some sheepskin gloves for the cold English winter. My friend had large hands and none of the 'women's' gloves fitted, so we asked to try the men's gloves. The sales assistant was very reluctant to allow this - presumably it would have meant she was a transvestite.
I can't remember any discussions about what she should be called, other than Trinidadian.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:01 PM

You should have been around in the 1960s... as I was.. when black, African-Americans, Negros, colored people... were debating/arguing among themselves about what they wanted to be called!
I sat...quietly... in NAACP meetings and listened to some pretty heated 'discussions'.

Right now "people of color" is a common way to include any darkish skinned people while "black" is generally accepted shorthand way of referring to those with ANY African heritage who wish to identify that way... like Kamala Harris whose families were from India... and from Africa by way of Jamaica. SHE says "black"..so...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:29 PM

Just Google Greg Clarke and you will find plenty of references to what he said. It seems the remarks were made "In comments to the culture and sport select committee in parliament yesterday".
An example:

https://blacklivesmatteruk.com/greg-clarke-racism-shows-british-football-rotting-from-the-head/

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM

I haven't heard of the term 'coloured' being considered offensive in North America - just hopelessly old-fashioned, and redolent of the bad old days. I've haven't heard it in years, but wouldn't be surprised if I did from some older person ("Bill, this coloured guy I used to work with, ....").

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:46 PM

I like a good bowl of treacle pudding and custard!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:35 PM

Whereas my opinion is that someone of his age could be forgiven the ‘coloured’ mis-speak, I really don’t believe the ‘lifestyle’ comment falls into the same category (if he did, in fact, make that comment - I haven’t heard or seen it reported anywhere other than here).

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:17 PM

Greg Clarke wasn't only criticised for using 'coloured'. He also described being gay as 'a lifestyle choice', which shows a considerable lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 03:11 PM

Here in California, "person of color" (or POC) refers to anyone who is not white - and it is a useful term for a number of circumstances. The term "colored person" or "colored boy" or "colored girl" is no longer acceptable - it referred only to Black people.
And according to the latest style manuals, Black is capitalized, but white isn't.
It is hard to keep up with.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 02:36 PM

In the 1960s 'negro' was the correct word, with no extra connotations as far as I was aware. Things change. It used to be a major no-no to use 'queer', but now it seems OK for 'gay' people to talk about being queer (though maybe not for non-gay people).
The same with 'the n-word'. When Jeremy Clarkson started a widely known children's rhyme but stopped before he got to the 'offensive' word, listeners filled in the rest of the rhyme in their minds - and Clarkson lost his job. But black people can use that word about themselves without repercussions.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:29 PM

Also in the southern US it is Enslaved Person now, not Slave. Sigh.

I am agin [southron for against] Person of Color as it seems to imply, nay, actually states, that white folks are just folks and everybody else is Other. Fuck that attitude, is my take. I prefer People of Paleness to put sub-Saharan African black as the default, since that is actually true.

But how about just calling people people and never referring to skin color when it is, as it almost always is, irrelevant?

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM

sciencegeek, we had a comedy in the 60s called Till Death Us Do Part, which was a vehicle for ridiculing the bigotry of the main man, Alf Garnett. Unfortunately, many of the more po-faced Brit contingent didn't see the sarcasm, and the programme was often vilified... The "Germans" episode of Fawlty Towers was recently pulled because of the perceived anti-German sentiment expressed by the Major and by Basil which was clearly intended to holds both of them to ridicule. Some things are just too subtle for the stuffy professional offence-takers...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:19 PM

Tunesmith, your post came directly after mine, in which I confessed the occasional near-slip of the tongue. It’s perfectly reasonable, therefore, to assume your post was aimed at me.

I’m fully aware of the meaning of the expression ‘got the memo’ and, as I said, you can be assured that I ‘got the memo’ and, despite my advanced years, I fully understand the offensive nature of the word ‘coloured’ when applied to black people (or, if you prefer, people of colour).

Old I certainly am. Stupid I certainly am not.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:18 PM

I seem to recall a spat or two on Fish 'n' Chipple a few years ago about non-Irish people who play Irish music being called "plastic Paddies." It always seemed to me that that expression insulted both the Irish AND the non-Irish! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:15 PM

here in the states we had a sitcom All in the Family that was designed to reveal the ugly side of thoughtless bigotry and use humor to show why it is wrong... if a phrase came out of Archie Bunker's mouth, then you knew it was a no-no ... he was white supremacy personified, but without the viciousness we see in them today

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 01:13 PM

My mum, who died last month aged 91, always referred to "coloured people," though she didn't have a racist bone in her body. She still hadn't forgiven the Germans for WW2, however, and booed when we drove past Lidl :-) It's always been an awkward terminological area in the UK and it's far better to try to glean the sentiment of the person using the "incorrect" term than to go for their jugular. "Person of colour" is a clumsy expression but at least it's a catch-all that seems to have become acceptable lately.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:52 PM

The onus should be on the unPC Word Police
to reach down from their ivory towers,
and communicate more effectively
to the mass population,
whenever they dictate the rules have changed on specific words..

.. or whenever they invent new trendier correct words...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM

Backwoodsman. What I was trying to point out is that lots of older people in the UK don't seem to have got the message about the offensive nature of the word "coloured". But, of course, there was no memo! No message. Somehow the whole population - as if by magic - was supposed to know all this stuff.
    For example, I'm amazed how many older people - I'm old ( unfortunately) - still use the word "coloured", and on the occasions that I've pulled them up, they are often clearly dumbfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM

BRIT does carry racist overtones in Ireland,dependent on context as does Sassenach.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:54 AM

btw.. I'll just add that I understand and accept why sit-coms like "Love Thy Neighbour"
should never again be casually shown on mainstream TV.

But I will not support canceling them entirely by banning manufacture and sales of DVDs,
or banishment from streaming media channels..

They are, despite their problematic content, valid cultural history artifacts.
Which should remain accessible for folks with sensible reasons
for viewing them...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:43 AM

"Negro" is the other previously 'polite' word which has recently become an unwitting booby trap
for older folks who are not at all racist...

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:40 AM

Tunesmith, if that’s me you’re being judgmental about, I ‘got the memo’ just fine. My problem is a 73-year-old brain that, very occasionally, dredges up a term or phrase from my childhood.

If that’s OK with you?

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:26 AM

One of the problems with old people, in the UK, is that they simply didn't get the memo telling them that the word "coloured" is considered offensive by black people.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:21 AM

When I was a child in the late-1940s and 1950s, ‘coloured’ was regarded as the polite word for a black person, and ‘black’, along with ‘n****r’, ‘c**n’, ‘s***e’ etc., was regarded as rude - that was certainly the case in my area. My parents drummed it into me that I must never use the ‘rude’ words to describe black people, but always describe them as ‘coloured’.

I still, very occasionally, have to check myself when I find ‘coloured’ about to slip unwittingly from my lips - habits reinforced during one’s early years can be difficult to break - but I DO check myself. So, although I agree that it was a very bad slip on the part of the FA Chairman, I don’t necessarily regard it as an indication that he’s a vile racist bastard - more evidence would be required to prove that accusation AFAIC - more someone ‘of a certain age’ who publically allowed his guard to drop, and who had the grace to admit he was wrong and to do the honourable thing and resign.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 11:12 AM

I can tell you that a couple of years ago, a guest columnist in my newspaper used the phrase "girl of color", and there were no cries of outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:49 AM

I'm not that bothered about called a Brit. I think I must've used it about myself a good few times here. I say yanks quite a lot, but if anyone told me I'm being offensive by so doing I'd pack it in. At one time, on a long-defunct forum, I said merkins quite a lot, thinking that it was a Dubya Bushism. Then someone told me it meant a pubic wig. Tread carefully, eh!

Robin mentioned Paki. That has been used for decades as a directly offensive reference to "Pakistani" people (often ones who had never been to Pakistan). "Brit" carries weak or no really racist connotation, whereas "Paki" has done for a long time. They may both be similar shortenings but they carry very different sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 10:44 AM

I have a black friend and neighbour who was born in Jamaica 60 odd years ago came to the uk late fifties.,and now lives in Ireland
She was telling me hat things are pretty bad now in Jamaica and even if people born there want to return to live they are not welcomed but are often the target of robbery etc,
all the Caribbean islands are apparantlly very different,so i do not know if this applies to any of the other islands as well , i do not think it is the case with St Lucia