BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 02:05 PM

Bloody brilliant, Dick. I've just intoned it out very loud to Mrs Steve, who has now forgotten all the cares of the day!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM

Wouldn't it be great if WAV and Donuel got together and wrote a poem?
Imagine the possiblitiies if they were both not alone!
Clever rhymes abd scansion diverse-
How many syllables in one verse?
Or even in a single line
Don't worry, all will soon be pretty much ok.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 02:32 PM

Ass holes in castles
aren't golden and wise
In fact they're fascile
and fools in disguise

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 03:25 PM

A ditty I write be it a poem, lyric or rhyme is written right here in the spur of the moment . I don't use Word and edit for days or weeks.
What can be called real time rhymes are not tortured creations but instant manifestations. For that alone I am proud of each one. Afterall Jesus only wrote in the sand and brushed it away with his foot. It will take a mod or an EMP to erase my words. Social media is ephemeral and like a footprint in the sand. I wish I could improvise musicaly as easily.
such as;


In the sperm of the moment Jesus was fertilized
It was 3 wise men who later realized
His life would never be told by attribution
and the baby Jesus would be penalized
from the start by cleft pallett mallocution

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 03:29 PM

Who said they all should be great
Most of them make me ache
so for gad sakes
see them as clouds of odd shapes.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 03:32 PM

With vision oft blurred
By stars in their eyes!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 03:53 PM

They say in time all bad things will pass,
But I'm sat here with one lodged half way out my arse...

If you don't want such a problem with your kyber,
Follow wise advice and eat more fibre.

Whatever this has to do with the subject of Reason,
It at least sounds reasonable
To eat your meals with plenty of peas on...

pfr - poetry for reason...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 03:57 PM

...or the trad English rhyme -

Here I sat broken hearted -
Paid a penny and only farted.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 05:12 PM

Pfr don't eat much wholegrain pasta
So now he's had a turtle-head disaster...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 05:40 PM

If he started to drink beer
Maybe he'd get diarrhea

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 05:41 PM

Reason is not a luxury but is a necessity for an advanced society. You there, you are living a more luxurious life than people in the court of the pharoh if not more than the pharoh himself. All this and we see so little.
How little do we see? This will explain it a bit.

here and now

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 06:07 PM

Drinking cider increases the chance
of an explosive catastrophe in your pants...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM

pfr get well soon. Your body is depending on you and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 06:58 PM

Steve Shaw, well said about responsibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM

it's another reason why I packed in drinking two years ago..

I didn't want to become that elderly gentleman
sat in the corner of the pub
with a swarm flies hovering around his pants..

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 08:12 PM

a reason renaissance stands little chance in a swarm of dubious poetry.

I can't keep up. Maybe I've said all I have, anyway.

Y'all have fun...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 20 - 09:00 PM

There's nowt dubious about the "poetry" here, Bill. It's all total doggerel! Some may be proud but know what crap they're penning. Others may be penning crap but think they're Wordsworth...that's the trouble...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 01:27 AM

ahh.. there's one for the 'masterpiece poetry not yet written' notebook..

"crap" and "mishap" rhyme a treat...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM

Here is my take on the WAV format


All the world is a BULL SHIT thread and all the players upon the stage have fault within themselves. The fault is from the stars in violent gamma ray Nova storms. From chaos the threads of life in the most violent regions, must reproduce ferociously and often. Where calm, near imortality may reign. To burn twice as bright and hot or cool and still is the ancient response of life. We can not choose our region of birth. Feel fortunate if it is Earth.

cosmic pond

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 07:45 AM

pfr crept into
this crypt
- CRAPPED -
and crept out again.
That's the contribution
of he and Steve who have left
no evidence of any creativity here
Thats OK . They're not cut out to be artists
After this moment of comic relief
I respect Freedom of Speech
from the delicate delicious
to the scatological

So perhaps we can not restore reason tolerence empathy diversity and truth

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 08:14 AM

To restore implies a previous existence. What would that have been?
Rome? ugh
Only a few individuals are icons, heros, martyrs and paragons of virtue.
There are precious few who have reason tolerence empathy diversity and truth.
Perhaps a leader exists but for even half of all people to posess reason tolerence empathy diversity and truth, is asking too much.

Asking "how" is preumptuous.


can we reason at all


We may stay trapped in lies at the push of a button.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 09:28 AM

small fish, one mouth
no bigger than another
nobody has room
to eat his brother

medium sized fish
medium sized pond
most are happy
just swimming along

one day, one fish
begins to figure
he'd like others
to think he's bigger

but whether scientist,
or internet bard
there's nothing sadder
than trying too hard.

Now, THERE'S some doggerel for ya! (It likely joins the other crap as whatever level lives below "doggerel".)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:34 AM

Doggerel that satirizes doggerel is 'hot-doggerel'. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 10:54 AM

One thing us Brits can't stand is a pretentions supercilious pillock..

They set themselves up on high to be mocked..

Whether the mockery is gentle and friendly,
or unfriendly and cruel,
is up to how insufferably vain and pompous that self indulgent attention-seeking pillock may be...

We consider that is fairly reasonable...

Hence 'knowingly' shit poetry...!!!

.. doggerel shit versus pure undiluted Bullshit...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 11:32 AM

Cheers for that, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 12:38 PM

I salute you Jeri. You are skilled. You have the makings of an iconic children's book.

Dealing with Steve below the line is like a never ending episode of 'South Park". I'm Stan and Steve is a well behaved Cartman.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 12:49 PM

Nothin like teaching kids to stop tryin.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 01:06 PM

Donny - you started a potentially interesting thread,
some of us enjoyed getting involved in a stimulating debate.

But you couldn't resist buggering it up with your usual lack of self restraint...

That is definitely unreasonable...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM

btw.. Happy new year...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 03:47 PM

Nonsense, thread drift is old hat, in fact it is a time honored tradition.
HAPPY NEW YEAR

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 20 - 06:54 PM

Nothing to do with thread drift, Donuel, old chap. It's to do with your utterly weird obsession with riling other people, for psychological reasons of your own that we can't begin to understand. You can't help it. Examine your conscience, mate. This post is a substitute for the post you should be getting from the mods but which you are not getting. Just stick to your cosmological bollix is what I suggest. Happy new year.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:07 AM

I know who I am after a lifetime of examinaton. You should try it. I'm no Robin Williams. But I do have an obcession with his free association dialog, share his only child status and exact birthday. I do have a few talents but too few to my liking. The abject silliness and barbs do not translate well in text for example, "good morning viet nam", see what i mean.
I never had his riches so I could not help people the way he did.
None of his influence would help me get a job at the state department.
I never met Robin but I met his friends from Chris Reeves to Steven Wright. Yes I have had fun with your personnae from my point of view but I am definately not obcessed with you. That you are obcessed with me is part of the inside joke. I think you want to be the boss. If I could I would knight you Grand Poohbah of mudcat BS. I may as well poke fun at Mitch McConnel, whose sense of humor you share. Your criticism and ad hominum comments over jokes is where much of your bruhaha started. I presume insight has not helped, so back to the same questions posed by religionists and scientists s alike, How can we restore a renaissance of reason and morality?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 12:01 PM

Mork for a role model...??? hmmmm...

Robin Williams didn't amuse us Brits much..

To our tastes he was one of the most irritating unfunny 'comedians' ever..

An accolade shared unfunnily enough
with other notable American self-indulgent motor-mouth babbling stream of shite unfunny men...

Fortunately American Comedy has recovered from that phase of tedious annoying drivel,
and is far more universally entertaining for intelligent adults these days...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 12:10 PM

"As unfunny as Bob Hope at Miss World 1970." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 04:35 PM

When Robin Williams was really 'on' and tuned in, he was amazing.
His problem was he could seldom turn it off, and automatically went into fast-forward at the slightest provocation.

There many examples on Youtube.. some very funny.. some just irritating. You sort to suit.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:13 PM

It has become obvious my other dark and morose influence was my neighbor, Rod Serling.

Now being quite open what or who influenced you?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:36 PM

Me? Walter Kaufmann... former Philosophy professor at Princeton. Heard him speak in St. Louis in 1959 and bought every book by him I could find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kaufmann_(philosopher)

... and many Sci-fi authors with creative themes... and a few friends who showed me new ways to approach problems...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 07:39 PM

To go back to the original OP theme:

'' The average IQ of the world's population, which has steadily risen from the post-war to the late 90 s, has decreased over the last twenty years...
This is the flipping of the Flynn effect.
It seems that the level of intelligence measured by testing is decreasing in the most developed countries.
Many can be the causes of this phenomenon.
One of them could be the impoverishment of language.
Several studies show that lexical knowledge and language impoverishment are decreasing: it is not just about reducing the vocabulary used, but also the linguistic subtleties that help to develop and formulate complex thinking.
The progressive disappearance of times (subjunctive, imperfect, compound forms of the future, participant past) gives rise to a thought almost always to the present, currently limited: unable to projections in time.
Simplifying tutorials, disappearing capitals and punctuation are examples of '' deadly blows '' to the accuracy and variety of expression.
Just an example: deleting the word '' young girl '' (now obsolete) does not only mean abandoning the aesthetics of a word, but also unintentionally promoting the idea that there are no intermediate stages between a child and a woman.
Fewer words and fewer conjugated verbs involve less ability to express emotions and fewer possibilities for thought development.
Studies have shown that violence in the public and private spheres comes directly from the inability to describe one's emotions through words.
No words to build a reasoning, complex thinking is made impossible.
The poorer the language, the more thought disappears.
The story is rich in examples and many books (Georges Orwell - '' 1984 "; Ray Bradbury - '' Fahrenheit 451 '') told how all totalitarian regimes have always hindered thought, by reducing the number and the number meaning of words.
If there are no thoughts, there are no critical thoughts. And there is no speechless thinking.
How can you build hypothetical deductive thought without conditional?
How can you look at the future without conjugation with the future?
How can you capture a storm, a succession of elements in time, whether past or future, and their relative duration, without a language that distinguishes what could have been, what was, what is, what? could be, and what will be after what could have happened, did it really happen?
Dear parents and teachers: let's talk, read and write our children, our students. Teaching and practicing language in its most different forms. Even if it seems complicated. Especially if it's complicated.
Because in this effort there is freedom.
Those who claim the need to simplify spelling, purge the tongue of one's ' flaw s', abolish genres, times, nuances, anything that creates complexity, are the real artisans of impoverishing the human mind .....
There is no freedom without necessity.
There is no beauty without the thought of beauty
Sources:
Christophe Clavé
Graduated Sciences-Po Paris, MBA holder, professional coach, Christophe Clavé spent 25 years in business, as a HRD then Executive Director. He was also in charge of the Corporate Strategy and Policies course at HEC Paris for 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:51 PM

The theory of an ongoing erosion of language skill is sound and probable. There are of course ancillary causes such as political policy of limiting education to the wealthy class.

Less likely causes could include genetics and disease (parasite or infectious). What if there is an explosion of dyslexia for example.

Changes in my language skill in 20 years is like night and day simply due to practice.

Beauty depends on culture. For some in the USA beauty is money or hotness. In the Pentagon it is more bang for the buck

For the Navaho:
Walking in Beauty: Closing Prayer from the Navajo Way Blessing Ceremony
In beauty I walk
With beauty before me I walk
With beauty behind me I walk
With beauty above me I walk
With beauty around me I walk
It has become beauty again
Hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shitsijí’ hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shikéédéé hózhóogo naasháa doo?Shideigi hózhóogo naasháa doo?T’áá altso shinaagóó hózhóogo naasháa doo?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’?Hózhó náhásdlíí’
Today I will walk out, today everything negative will leave me
I will be as I was before, I will have a cool breeze over my body.
I will have a light body, I will be happy forever, nothing will hinder me.
I walk with beauty before me. I walk with beauty behind me.
I walk with beauty below me. I walk with beauty above me.
I walk with beauty around me. My words will be beautiful.
In beauty all day long may I walk.
Through the returning seasons, may I walk.
On the trail marked with pollen may I walk.
With dew about my feet, may I walk.
With beauty before me may I walk.
With beauty behind me may I walk.
With beauty below me may I walk.
With beauty above me may I walk.
With beauty all around me may I walk.
In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, lively, may I walk.
In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, living again, may I walk.
My words will be beautiful…

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:51 PM

Sorry to have to tell you and Christophe, Bill, but the "average" IQ will always be 100, even if we all turn into Mr Spock. The best bet is ignore "IQ" altogether. The guy who invented the notion was a bit of a fascist, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM

My IQ was 88. (there were sections I refused to answer like stringing beads)
My EQ is 100

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 09:19 PM

The last time my IQ was measured, it was 178. It means absolutely nothing, and this from a bloke who could be crowing about it. Ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:00 PM

I've got a fairly high IQ, but what Steve said.
It doesn't measure how effectively a person could use it. It doesn't measure (and I'm commpletely with you on this) whether a person just stopped wanting to answer questions. I had disgraphia as a kid, so my first test was oral. I scored a bunch higher on that one than the one I took when I could write. And then, there was ADD, and getting to the point of "Aw, forget it. This is stupid". Some of the dumbest people I've known were doctors, who I'd guess, were good at memorizing stuff. Some of us just would rather figure things out than remember stuff.

And average IQ is ALWAYS 100. If we dumbed down, then possibly one would be able to score 100 if they could correctly spell "the", and count to 10. THAT is what can change, but 100 is always the average.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:12 PM

When I was in 7th grade, I saw a test score that said 155. The thing is, I was better then at taking tests than I was at 'processing knowledge'. That was what I remember as the Stanford Binet test that students were given. I took it 5 times... twice in the 3rd grade when we moved. I always got high scores, but I had never learned **how to study** and had breezed thru school easily until I hit high school and and college where it was more than just collecting facts and faking it. I had to really work to deal with higher education.
   I agree that IQ numbers are not a great indication of any basic competence. They always reflect culture, genetics, peer acceptance..etc. ...but many points in that long article about language skills being important really resonated...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Dec 20 - 10:21 PM

Bill, it's about grades, not IQ tests, but I got As and Bs in classes I liked, without studying (I paid attention in class), and Cs and Ds in classes I didn't like - even when I studied. If my brain didn't give a shit, I couldn't force it to work.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 10:40 AM

The big problem is with those who don't even try to force it to work.

And some are proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 12:23 PM

They don't need brains when they got faith, guns, and social media...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 21 - 12:50 PM

Yeah. I guess I forgot.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 08:57 AM

When a culture normally rewards competance and respondsibility then suddenly an incompetant irrespondsible populist leader comes along the incompetant people are overjoyed and of course hired.

I am dismayed that there are so many incompetants.
It sounds arrogant but With effort we could help at least half of them.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jan 21 - 09:50 AM

"Respondsibility" - I'm not sure that isn't a great misspelling.