BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM

Yeah, the first thing that news bulletins do here, when schools are closed or classes are sent home because of coronavirus, is to wheel out parents whingeing about how inconvenient it is for them. We don't run schools for the convenience of parents offloading their precious offspring...do we??

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 04:35 PM

In the US there is a lot of treating teachers like babysitters too. I tried to sub in the public schools but they [school admins] refused to let me *teach* anything. I would sign up only for classes I could teach, and in those the students were willing to learn, but admin stopped them. And half the time they [admin] would switch me to classes whose content I couldn't teach, but if I complained, was told to stop trying to teach content.

I don't sub in public schools any more.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:50 PM

i was married to a dedicated primary school teacher and have known other caring dedicated teachers, many of them end up defeated by the system and the adherence to the curriculum,to be succesful it would help if they had smaller classes, too often the government regards them as merely child minders, right now they are frontline workers, which is totally unnecessary. with a vaccine on the horizon schools should be closed, extra school term should be extended in the summer. the truth has surfaced the government regards them as child minders

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:58 PM

A law against flagrant lieing in Congress should be equivalent to manslaughter.

After all Republicans passed a law to make lieing legal for financial institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM

Pfr, my missus was also a special needs teacher (SENCO or summat, was it?) for many years in both primary and secondary. Before that she was a classroom teacher in an East End junior school (which had the most amazing head teacher, Doreen Clery, who is now a freeman of the city of London, qualified to drive a flock of sheep over London Bridge, only she ain't got no sheep...). We are still dear friends. I was a bog standard secondary science/biology teacher, first in the East End, then in Walthamstow (God help me), then in Holsworthy, Devon. My little sis, up in Yorkshire, is the head teacher of an infant school in a deprived area. Between us we saw the whole gamut of our education system (bar the parasitic private sector). Remembering about all that now, which is in our past apart from my sis, keeps us well grounded. You never lose that. Kudos to your missus (and mine too). What a sterling and largely unappreciated job they do...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:59 PM

I knew her before she was a teacher,
when she was a care free student
with a lusty eye for the cool good looking bad boy
who played guitar in a punk band...

Who'd have thought he'd have grown up to look like me...!!!???

That's the first time I experienced someone stalking me..

..though I didn't know it at the time...

She's turned out of greater value to humanity,
than a lot of us will ever be...

She can't entirely predict an infants future.
But she tries her best against the odds
to give them a chance of having some slightly more positive options...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:29 PM

The divorced wife of Jeff Bezos is giving nearly 4 billion dollars to higher education, colleges and HPCU's.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 04:18 PM

Ha who else would complain about not complaining :^)

This thread is supposedly about my exhortation to bring truth, science and sanity back after recent losses.

PFR you're lucky to have such a wonderful partner, but that was your plan I bet, you lucky bastard.
My wife is a Phd and one of many in charge of what medical research to undertake and how to afford it for the NIH and others.

In the meantime I will take the advice about being more straight forward and not get my tinsel in a twist this holiday. I'm celebrating with old projects.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM

Or is it Fremeriglish?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:54 PM

I admit to not having read this thread. I'm not likely to, either.
But somebody wants to restore a re-birth. My question is, how do we teach people English? Or French? Or Frenglish?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:49 PM

My wife is an MA, from a good Uni, in Early Learning..

She's got 35 years experience teaching nursery/infants
in schools in 'disadvantaged' areas.
Parents with poor education and low aspirations.
Crime and drug related social and mental issues.
Cultural attitudes hostile to self-discipline and learning
Social media political brainwashing that teachers are marxist feminist enemy
who are plotting to demasculate boys..etc ..etc.. etc..

The kids are not blank slates by the time they start school..

As a caring dedicated [so far, not burnt out..] teacher,
she does as best she can to start them off in education...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:16 PM

I nearly said that my Donuel is like pfr's Dick, but thought better of it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

My joke thread? Legal threats??

I don't do grudgy feelings towards people online, pal. This little world is far too two-dimensional for that. But you either can't or won't speak plainly in clear English and you frequently deal in convoluted cod science. It's in my nature to not mind telling you that when you do it. It's no more than you deserve in view of your daft and pointless little prods and pokes. You could help me to ignore you if you'd stop doing that.

"What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?"

Well, as they have followed different paths through school, have different talents and abilities (or disabilities) and all progress at different rates, there's no answer to that, is there? I could say a basic level of numeracy and literacy, but one student's good is another student's bog-standard is another student's impossible. I could say they should have a well-rounded, intelligent and sociable outlook on life, but, grand though that sounds, it's just waffle. I could say sympathy and tolerance for all other humans, and a high level of environmental consciousness, but ditto. I could say that the generations above them have the responsibility to pass on all the best of what they themselves have learned, so that the young 'uns can stand on the shoulders of giants, but gosh, that's mired in all sorts of murk, innit...


And, dammit, I haven't mentioned a brace or more of 'A' Levels under the belt yet...or that they should believe in God, like we've told 'em to...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM

Guess which list will be more popular.

but I got the point

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM

Ok class, look forward at the white board.. this list is how you must think and reason for yourselves..

The list underneath, is all the things you must not do and know.

Copy it all down and memorise the points for a test later...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:38 PM

Mrrzy, you're speaking the truth.

Steve in an effort to prove that it is needless to take umbridge online and ego is foolish, I started a pseudo arguement with you in your joke thread. Your refusal to see that, was probably due to your argumentative nature which is not a bad thing. It progressed all the way to legal threats, for that I am sorry. For years you argued about who I am not which could go on forever. Who I am is all that matters and it only matters to me.
In almost all other respects I admire and respect you as a person.
I will always have little interest in 'a pecking order'. Even Stilly became concerned that we had an actual animosity, well I don't anyway, so Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 12:37 PM

What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?

Over the years we have seen different governments bemoan the state of education and saying how far behind the rest of the world that we are. They raise the school leaving age (handy sometimes if you want to keep the unemployment figures down) but little seems to change until the next education minister arrives.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:53 AM

More platitudes. I didn't say that "kids" need to be entertained. Entertainment can turn you into a passive recipient. True learning requires you to be an active collaborator in the process, not a mute copier-downer sitting on your arse sucking in "facts." A good classroom with a skilled and enthusiastic teacher provides the context. And that "classroom" isn't four walls either. Reason and logic have making connections as their sine qua non. You have to do that for yourself, you have to be enthused, and it's hard but pleasant work. Society's resource-poor prescription for what should be taught and how makes even the keenest teacher's job ten times more difficult. That's what's up. Suggesting lessons on thinking, reason and logic are suggesting sticking plasters.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:40 AM

And older kids who are an international disgrace in math, science, language, arts and humanities.

But we sure can shoot guns.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:36 AM

Steve Shaw, the idea that teaching *little kids* requires making them want to learn is possibly the major problem. Kids can't *help* learning. They are little knowledge sponges. If you give them info, they will learn it. The idea that they have to be *entertained* even robs them of the sense of accomplishment one gets from making efforts. Effortful learning is intrinsically rewarding. School should require industry so kids develop into adults with industry. What we have instead is adults who require entertainment. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM

Another aspect of online exchanges, apart from the ability to hide behind anonymity and the fact that you can't see faces with all their gamut of expression, is that you don't hear nuance in people's voices. Most people seem far clumsier in expressing nuance in the typed word than they do face to face. Misunderstanding online can take a day or two to clear up, by which time the offendee may have decided to set their umbrage in stone. Face to face, it's cleared up in seconds if there's anything to clear up at all (or, rarely, there'll be wigs on the green). And, on top of all that, there's the ability to set up a false persona for yourself. Recognise that, Donuel? Never mind try a little tenderness, etc. Try a little straightforwardness, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:07 AM

that's still a brilliantly good funny prescient movie..

hardly at all dated and redundant...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:56 AM

Like in Dr. Strangelove...'We must not allow a virtual digital fascist world gap'.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:09 AM

I forgot to mention internet 'virtual world' gaming and associated chat rooms..

Research is clearly demonstrating the extent to which very young children
are being subjected to targeted far right hate propaganda;
being indoctrinated and recruited for the rest of their lives..

.. if the h!tler youth had access to "world wide web" 80 - 90 years ago,

imagine the outcome...???

Well. it's happening every second, all around the world, right now...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:01 AM

Free abuse does not entice everyone Steve. Try a little TOLERANCE

OR TENDERNESS its up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:52 AM

But here, Rain Dog, you can neither see their faces nor know their name. And it's free here. I won't be spoiling an expensive night down the boozer flaming someone!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:34 AM

We all could use a little R&R. (Reason Renaissance)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:32 AM

"Especially when we cannot agree which one of us has an indoctrinated cult mind."

Thats where we have to tolerate an hypocrisy.

Tolerence and diversity was admired as little as 15 years ago.
A deliberate campaign was waged against tolerance.
Lets get it back.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM

Indeed they do.The internet allows all of us access to so much but has a tendency to narrow our views. That tendency to visit sites that support/echo our views rather than challenge them.

In the pub I engage in conversation with people whose names I do not know. If they do tell me their names I do not ask for documentary proof.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:54 AM

Internet forums, especially the ones allowing anonymity, have a lot to answer for in that regard, as do social media sites.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM

"Deprograming an indoctrinated cult mind is a tough nut to crack but it has been done. We at least have to try."

Especially when we cannot agree which one of us has an indoctrinated cult mind.

We live in an age of intolerance for people who hold different views to our own. I am a member of what seems to be that diminishing group of people who goes to a pub (not that I can go to pubs now) and does not choke on my beer when someone has the temerity to disagree with my views.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:05 AM

My idea is cheaper and more humane than another civil or world war.
Population control by another means would be best.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:36 AM

A Trump or a Hitler clearly lie for their own agenda.

I am getting into the weeds of psychology when I dicuss HOW to change minds by exposing not only the lie but repeating the rational obvious truth. Where I naturally go from my experience is a Neuro Political Science.
(I rejected the name Political Psycho Science) :^!

Deprograming an indoctrinated cult mind is a tough nut to crack but it has been done. We at least have to try.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:17 AM

Give us some fr'instances.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:01 AM

Democracy is argument and freedom is the right to argue instead of being told what to believe authoritatively.
The UK representatives here seem to be more democratically minded than Americans by their propensity to argue imo.

Those who create lieing perceptions to create a reality of authoritarianism is the true enemy of the people. This is what people here need to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:52 AM

I won't even begin to ask you to run that by me again.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:44 AM

That is all well and good but it has been known a long time that the hand that rocks the cradle...

The right has used Social Engineering based on their belief that Perception Is Reality which can cause many to believe anything.
It is time the left realizes this and use social enigneering for rational benefit.

I am using the term social engineering in a manner you may not be accustomed. Brain training/washing, Hypnotized, propogandized, creating belief...

Buying back local news and teaching people that 'perception is reality' is an evil outdated idea that is the enemy of the people, religion, science, government, civilization etc.

If you go back 20 years you will see I have railed agaibst PIR, the perception is reality paradigm in my posts. It was my point of contention with the CIA years ago. It is still dangerous tuday as we have seen. PIR works in the short run (generationally)

True reality is more complex and variable and must be understood prior to reaction when possible. Yes science is the key.

For anyone who understands what I am saying you may see that I am saying we must use the same tools/strategy of the right to defeat the right. Yes its a bit hypocritical but its the best I can can think of that actually works.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 05:49 AM

Absolutely.

What I posted is indeed a dream. Notions about "teaching" logic, thinking and reasoning are pipe dreams, and I find vacuous statements along those lines irritating and feel that they are ultimately damaging in that they divert us from confronting the real issues, as you describe. It's fine words buttering no parsnips. It's a bit like believing that God created everything, genuine enquiry about the origin and nature of things thereby staunched. Real knowledge is all about brushing the dross aside and going out to grab it for yourself. Instead of that, we have content-laden curriculums, drawn up by middle-class establishment apparatchiks, or untrammelled nasty pieces of work on social media or in the tabloids, telling us what they think we need to know...And if that's too hard for the plebs, you can always have programmes about beautifully-airbrushed celebs shagging each other on an island or eating grubs in a jungle...

(...Removes cynic's hat..)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 11:49 PM

Critical awareness and curiosity..

.. not conformity and hostility..

Dream on..

Such progressive ideals don't stand a chance.

The internet has been taken over as a means of indoctrinating international children with far right ideology..

The organised right know what they are doing,
and how to most effectively achieve their long term objectives..

This is not conspiracy theory, but objective demonstrable fact.

Dip randomly into popular comic book/movie/toys superhero oriented youtube channels,
and you will immediately discover pernicious anti-left,
and anti-feminist dogma being constantly pushed
by mostly American youth influencers..
Under cover evangelicals disguised as hip dudes...

They make being reactionary libertarians sound cool and the desirable 'norm'..

.. and that's only the tip of the iceberg...

The entry drug to the harder supremacist neo n@zi addictions...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM

Platitudinous statements that children should be "taught reasoning" or "logic" or "how to think" are utter bullshit. The first principle of education (as opposed to instruction) is to enthuse. To make curious. To get children to want to learn stuff for themselves, to go out there and make connections. To question everything you tell them. To demand evidence. That way, the reasoning, the thinking and the logic will look after themselves. What we need to recognise, of course, is that the establishment doesn't want any of this. The establishment would far rather bore children into submission, via content-stuffed syllabuses full of disconnected "facts" and via repressive testing and assessment regimes. That's how they mould the citizens of the future that they want. If you don't believe me, cast your mind back to the very few really great teachers you had who really inspired you. They ticked all the boxes I've mentioned. As for your lessons on logic/reasoning/how to think, I think I might have fallen asleep at the back of your classroom...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:51 PM

.. of course, if h1tler had the benefit of lightning fast internet social media back then..

Who knows, any yanks and brits allowed to live and breed
might be happily speaking german by now...???

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:46 PM

Well, dude - it's 2020, nearly 2021..

not 1939..

The world has deteriorated very significantly since trump won...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:37 PM

Um, the Murricans got it from Europe, dude.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:13 PM

Mr Red - agreed, absolutely..

But, It's reasonable to assert that the internet/social media
has enabled the far faster and much wider exporting of USA far right hate propaganda and influence...


It's no surprise UK neo fascists wholeheartedly ape USA hate ideas and slang...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:01 PM

Too many American brains are now permanently hard-wired to 'stupid'...

But the US don't have a monopoly. I give you 'king Boris

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:45 PM

I bet Bill Gates knows the Sinclair group bought most of the local radio and TV news services in the country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fHfgU8oMSo

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:06 PM

In a dysfunctional America polarised between proud boys and antifa,
"content" will be violently contested as propaganda for the oposing side..

Not easy for sensible compromise...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:58 PM

A agree that kids should be taught to think. I just think they should learn content, so they have knowledge to think *about* - too.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:53 PM

John P... you hit a very crucial point in today's information gap. Right-wing media distort reality, and are the source of much of the nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: John P
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM

I keep hoping that Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg will buy Fox News and either put it out of business or turn it into a real news organization. And then buy the internet service providers of all the right-wing conspiracy/hate/falsehood sites and cancel them all. A really big part of the problem is that people who get all their "news" from right-wing sites never hear about the real world. Everyone they listen to lies to them, and since that's all they hear, they believe it.