BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM

Trumpism, Q Anon and proud boys will have a generational lifetime similar to the 3rd Riech. How can nearly half the population of the USA be disuaded of conspiracy and brought back into the fold of a shared reality of evidence?

We have to rip up the rule book and conventional notions in dealing with Covid and likewise we will have to make some big changes in communication and transparancy to advance trustin government.
For Biden (an old fogey) to accomplish this feat he may have to do some unconventional disclosres for the unwashed public to believe or follow him. At the same time he has to proceed conventionally. Thats one neat trick.

In this light it is not crazy to begin a wide disclosure project regarding UFO evidence, just as Ronald Reagan suggested a unification of purpose in an address to the UN about UFOs.

Even if you think this fighting lies with lies is like fighting fire with fire is merely politically motivated it is a real game changer.
As for the 1/3 of the people having a belief the government knows more there are more people who see this as a good first step to trusting government. polls

Naturally there will have to be many other strategies that clever people could suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:41 AM

...other srategies like prominate evangelicals denounce Trumpisk to curb fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM

Well, at the height of the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, my mantra was "you have to talk". The problem being that some folks shout, and that ain't communicating. Well only to yourself**. It takes courage and intelligence to read the other side and if all they do is shout, there isn't much to read. Show empathy and they read it as weakness, so you don't. Families can't always agree, the Everly Brothers took different stances, Phil was Republican just to take the opposing side in some sort of sibling rivalry!

Donuel - it is an observed consequence of financial recessions that: a move to the right follows - among the masses. And COVID (or Brexshit) will ensure the next one.
Have a nice day, y'all.

**individuals or groups.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 10:36 AM

This not just a move to the right it is a non sensical fanaticism as in the biggest supernatural lies of the 3rd Reich. I have been hiding some of these facts in the weather thread where the boring and disasterous are mentioned.

79% of Repubs still believe in the stolen conspiracy lies. 20% of Trumpists believe God put Trump in power anda holy war will unsue.

I would use the tactic of distract and reveal for the good.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 11:32 AM

The first age of reason and enlightenment didn't make much difference...???

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaisance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 11:59 AM

Stay away from internet forums.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM

Facebook yes.

pfr Do you mean in terms of holy wars continuing or what? Secular thought and science did advance without blinding the astronomer or skinning the cosmologist alive.

My point is that we have evidence of several regimes using lies that eventually destroyed government and even killed millions. We have learned enough to defend against such psychological infections just as we have learned to fight virus so lets study and give a vaccine.

If a wound has been opened by Facebook abuse surely we can close it.
And don't call me Shirley.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM

The question is, Is a Biden victory of being rational enough for folks to wise up..
Maybe yes maybe no.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 01:26 PM

Too many American brains are now permanently hard-wired to 'stupid'...

Problem for the rest of the world is all these dangerous fukwit yanks
speak English, and have easy access to, and dominance, of social media...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 04:19 PM

How? First we install a sane Sec. of Education. Then we carefully institute programs in school curricula that teach 'thinking'... gently in lower grades, gradually getting more explicit as kids grow up, until by high school they are learning basic logic and reasoning and application of those to government.

Why no, I don't know how to get all that past the right-wing naysayers who will condemn it as attempts to control minds. They already HAVE their preferred methods, largely infused with religious influences and exhortations about 'states rights'.

Oh... and in the process, we begin limiting and reversing population growth!

   No.. I won't hold my breath... I don't look good in blue...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 04:39 PM

It has to start with public education. Start teaching content, stop putting beliefs before knowledge, stop respecting ignorance even if heartfelt, stop denigrating knowing things.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 04:43 PM

Yep. Mrrz.. that's the way. Of course, that means getting teachers who can and will promote those ideas. Slow process.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 04:44 PM

Also pedantically peevy: restore reason, or start/foment/encourage a reason renaissance. Restoring the renaissance means we had a renaissance already, which faded.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 05:37 PM

5 years ago I would have thought the Mrrzy solution was enough. Now I'm not so sure.
Faith and trust in government is broken probably beyond a competant performance by the next administration.
Social engineering sounds like grasping at straws but if nothing is done besides the usual, all there is - is a benign hope.
Good people doing the right thing for a change, should be enough and perhaps my worry is unfounded. The 20th century tells me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 07:21 PM

Mr. Red:

You reminded me when talking of the Troubles of an excellent, informative, and sobering book I read last year, and its title relates to your position on talk:

"Say Nothing" by Patrick Radden Keefe.

It does apply to some of Donuel's points, but the outlook to say the least is not cheery.

I used to link The Troubles, The Middle East, and possibly the Communist v Free World split as the greatest threats to human long term happiness (Symbolized by the notion of a World Federation a la Star Trek). I still believe that paying attention to the rest of the world is necessary to our ultimate, if not happiness, survival.

Theme Song: "Land of Confusion" by Genesis

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 08:43 PM

"Restoring the renaissance means we had a renaissance already, which faded."
Now you've done it, Mrrzy.. pushed my button...

Well, yes..there was THE renaissance..: "The Renaissance... was a period in European history marking the transition from the Middle Ages to modernity and covering the 15th and 16th centuries. It occurred after the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages and was associated with great social change. In addition to the standard periodization, proponents of a long Renaissance put its beginning in the 14th century and its end in the 17th century. The traditional view focuses more on the early modern aspects of the Renaissance and argues that it was a break from the past, but many historians today focus more on its medieval aspects and argue that it was an extension of the Middle Ages"

That was followed by 'enlightenment' in which the ideas that developed actually made some serious difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment#Significant_people_and_publications
.... thus we defined and 'codified' the principles of reason...

https://www.quora.com/What-is-philosophical-reasoning-What-purpose-does-it-serve?

   In many ways, those principles are still here and being kept alive, much as the Library of Alexandra kept much knowledge alive and monks as scribes in the Dark Ages kept manuscripts until it was safe...

   Because of technology and the WWW..etc.. almost everything we need IS still there. But the pressures of politics, population and that very WWW that supports divergent attitudes, some people see only the ideas that make them comfortable... or that they can comprehend.

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."


"Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them."
Educator Laurence J. Peter

So.. (if anyone is still reading).. pedantically qualifying: The renaissance did not exactly 'fade', but rather was 'diluted' by non-reason... which is a basic problem with the human mind: i.e., the ability to deny or ignore facts and reason..etc.

Sorry, but any serious attempt(s) at clarification takes much longer than whatever short comment it attempts to clarify... "I don't have time to write a short paper."

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 20 - 09:34 PM

Very nice.

A thousand little things and a few big things got us here and some of the same things can be used to reverse it and advance a new paradigm.
For example Bannon used and sold video games that glorified fascism. We could make computer games for the young which can bring the war against the planet to an end enviormentally and politically.

Again as a former hypnotist I am sensitized to the mind body connection and have been amazed at the extent and effect of a post hypnotic suggestion. Its possible I am over sensitized.

The fault is not in the stars but within us.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:45 AM

I think most teachers *are* willing to teach. They aren't allowed to.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM

The far right are yet again stirring up hatred against teachers...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 10:57 AM

In my freshman year in college, long long ago in a galaxy...(you get the idea), I had to take a course in practical reasoning (alias "critical thinking"), which was easily the single most important course I ever took.

Boy, was I dumb! Like most of my classmates, I was ready to fall for anything, as long as it was neatly packaged, superficially plausible, and/or appealed to my prejudices. Syllogisms were a little beyond me.
Who on earth wouldn't instinctively affirm the consequent or deny the antecedent or do any of that other stuff I was warned against?

Eventually I saw just how gullible I'd been. I had a "protective glow" against a certain amount of bamboozlement, mendacity, and self-deception.

Years later, I was the teacher. Boy, were they dumb! But by the end of the semester, most of them (I think!) were developing a similar glow.

Now to answer the question.

I really believe the biggest problem, though not the only one, is the failure of the educational system (public and private) to emphasize reasoning skills from the start.

Just consider. I and my classmates and later students were all high-school graduates. We'd learned very little about logic. And we were among those young Americans who, first of all, got into college and, second of all, wanted to go.

Which leaves almost everybody else continuing to affirm the consequent, argue ad hominem, and believe 90% of appealing baloney instead of only the 5% or 10% or that I now believe.

Critical thinking has got to become a required course in every high school in the land.

You can't have a "reason renaissance" without teaching people how to reason.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 11:46 AM

Lighter you are quite the writer

What about whataboutism

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:02 PM

Teachers in most states are expected to follow the established curriculum..... this in different depending on whether they are in Mass., Idaho, or Texas... etc. The curriculum includes certain textbooks, which often are determined by the Texas system because Texas buys so many.... which influences what publishers will offer. Texas choices strongly reflect the prejudices of religions *read: Christian*.
   See the problem? Thus, what teachers WANT to teach is not the same everywhere. Individual teachers may sneak in ideas even where the curriculum is fairly conservative... but *shrug*

Lighter added to MY opinion about the necessity of starting early and teaching **reasoning**. I presume he doesn't live in Texas... *wry smile*
I never had an actual course in logic until college, but a few teachers in 8th grade and in high school used reason without actually calling it that, and I sorta picked up the habit, so that college courses just clarified the formal rules.

It's gonna be a long process, and I'm not gonna be here much longer. I was a graduate teaching asst. in Philosophy for 2 years and tried to get the basic attitude across to a few... just as I have done at Mudcat for 20+ years... with..ummm.. varying success... ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:17 PM

1981, the moral philosophy module of my Humanities degree introduced the concept;

"Moral Education - Moral Maturity"

There was one key textbook, which was a fairly profound influence for me..

But I've not read it since, and can't remember the author...

.. anyway.. I obviously turned out to be a reasonably rational kinda person...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:20 PM

I'll bet it wasn't Kant's "Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic of Morals".

Lots of books on the subject... as long as you got the basics, it helps.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: John P
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM

I keep hoping that Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg will buy Fox News and either put it out of business or turn it into a real news organization. And then buy the internet service providers of all the right-wing conspiracy/hate/falsehood sites and cancel them all. A really big part of the problem is that people who get all their "news" from right-wing sites never hear about the real world. Everyone they listen to lies to them, and since that's all they hear, they believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:53 PM

John P... you hit a very crucial point in today's information gap. Right-wing media distort reality, and are the source of much of the nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 03:58 PM

A agree that kids should be taught to think. I just think they should learn content, so they have knowledge to think *about* - too.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:06 PM

In a dysfunctional America polarised between proud boys and antifa,
"content" will be violently contested as propaganda for the oposing side..

Not easy for sensible compromise...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 04:45 PM

I bet Bill Gates knows the Sinclair group bought most of the local radio and TV news services in the country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fHfgU8oMSo

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:01 PM

Too many American brains are now permanently hard-wired to 'stupid'...

But the US don't have a monopoly. I give you 'king Boris

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:13 PM

Mr Red - agreed, absolutely..

But, It's reasonable to assert that the internet/social media
has enabled the far faster and much wider exporting of USA far right hate propaganda and influence...


It's no surprise UK neo fascists wholeheartedly ape USA hate ideas and slang...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:37 PM

Um, the Murricans got it from Europe, dude.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:46 PM

Well, dude - it's 2020, nearly 2021..

not 1939..

The world has deteriorated very significantly since trump won...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 06:51 PM

.. of course, if h1tler had the benefit of lightning fast internet social media back then..

Who knows, any yanks and brits allowed to live and breed
might be happily speaking german by now...???

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM

Platitudinous statements that children should be "taught reasoning" or "logic" or "how to think" are utter bullshit. The first principle of education (as opposed to instruction) is to enthuse. To make curious. To get children to want to learn stuff for themselves, to go out there and make connections. To question everything you tell them. To demand evidence. That way, the reasoning, the thinking and the logic will look after themselves. What we need to recognise, of course, is that the establishment doesn't want any of this. The establishment would far rather bore children into submission, via content-stuffed syllabuses full of disconnected "facts" and via repressive testing and assessment regimes. That's how they mould the citizens of the future that they want. If you don't believe me, cast your mind back to the very few really great teachers you had who really inspired you. They ticked all the boxes I've mentioned. As for your lessons on logic/reasoning/how to think, I think I might have fallen asleep at the back of your classroom...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 11:49 PM

Critical awareness and curiosity..

.. not conformity and hostility..

Dream on..

Such progressive ideals don't stand a chance.

The internet has been taken over as a means of indoctrinating international children with far right ideology..

The organised right know what they are doing,
and how to most effectively achieve their long term objectives..

This is not conspiracy theory, but objective demonstrable fact.

Dip randomly into popular comic book/movie/toys superhero oriented youtube channels,
and you will immediately discover pernicious anti-left,
and anti-feminist dogma being constantly pushed
by mostly American youth influencers..
Under cover evangelicals disguised as hip dudes...

They make being reactionary libertarians sound cool and the desirable 'norm'..

.. and that's only the tip of the iceberg...

The entry drug to the harder supremacist neo n@zi addictions...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 05:49 AM

Absolutely.

What I posted is indeed a dream. Notions about "teaching" logic, thinking and reasoning are pipe dreams, and I find vacuous statements along those lines irritating and feel that they are ultimately damaging in that they divert us from confronting the real issues, as you describe. It's fine words buttering no parsnips. It's a bit like believing that God created everything, genuine enquiry about the origin and nature of things thereby staunched. Real knowledge is all about brushing the dross aside and going out to grab it for yourself. Instead of that, we have content-laden curriculums, drawn up by middle-class establishment apparatchiks, or untrammelled nasty pieces of work on social media or in the tabloids, telling us what they think we need to know...And if that's too hard for the plebs, you can always have programmes about beautifully-airbrushed celebs shagging each other on an island or eating grubs in a jungle...

(...Removes cynic's hat..)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:44 AM

That is all well and good but it has been known a long time that the hand that rocks the cradle...

The right has used Social Engineering based on their belief that Perception Is Reality which can cause many to believe anything.
It is time the left realizes this and use social enigneering for rational benefit.

I am using the term social engineering in a manner you may not be accustomed. Brain training/washing, Hypnotized, propogandized, creating belief...

Buying back local news and teaching people that 'perception is reality' is an evil outdated idea that is the enemy of the people, religion, science, government, civilization etc.

If you go back 20 years you will see I have railed agaibst PIR, the perception is reality paradigm in my posts. It was my point of contention with the CIA years ago. It is still dangerous tuday as we have seen. PIR works in the short run (generationally)

True reality is more complex and variable and must be understood prior to reaction when possible. Yes science is the key.

For anyone who understands what I am saying you may see that I am saying we must use the same tools/strategy of the right to defeat the right. Yes its a bit hypocritical but its the best I can can think of that actually works.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 06:52 AM

I won't even begin to ask you to run that by me again.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:01 AM

Democracy is argument and freedom is the right to argue instead of being told what to believe authoritatively.
The UK representatives here seem to be more democratically minded than Americans by their propensity to argue imo.

Those who create lieing perceptions to create a reality of authoritarianism is the true enemy of the people. This is what people here need to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:17 AM

Give us some fr'instances.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 07:36 AM

A Trump or a Hitler clearly lie for their own agenda.

I am getting into the weeds of psychology when I dicuss HOW to change minds by exposing not only the lie but repeating the rational obvious truth. Where I naturally go from my experience is a Neuro Political Science.
(I rejected the name Political Psycho Science) :^!

Deprograming an indoctrinated cult mind is a tough nut to crack but it has been done. We at least have to try.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:05 AM

My idea is cheaper and more humane than another civil or world war.
Population control by another means would be best.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM

"Deprograming an indoctrinated cult mind is a tough nut to crack but it has been done. We at least have to try."

Especially when we cannot agree which one of us has an indoctrinated cult mind.

We live in an age of intolerance for people who hold different views to our own. I am a member of what seems to be that diminishing group of people who goes to a pub (not that I can go to pubs now) and does not choke on my beer when someone has the temerity to disagree with my views.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 08:54 AM

Internet forums, especially the ones allowing anonymity, have a lot to answer for in that regard, as do social media sites.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM

Indeed they do.The internet allows all of us access to so much but has a tendency to narrow our views. That tendency to visit sites that support/echo our views rather than challenge them.

In the pub I engage in conversation with people whose names I do not know. If they do tell me their names I do not ask for documentary proof.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:32 AM

"Especially when we cannot agree which one of us has an indoctrinated cult mind."

Thats where we have to tolerate an hypocrisy.

Tolerence and diversity was admired as little as 15 years ago.
A deliberate campaign was waged against tolerance.
Lets get it back.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:34 AM

We all could use a little R&R. (Reason Renaissance)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 09:52 AM

But here, Rain Dog, you can neither see their faces nor know their name. And it's free here. I won't be spoiling an expensive night down the boozer flaming someone!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 10:01 AM

Free abuse does not entice everyone Steve. Try a little TOLERANCE

OR TENDERNESS its up to you.