BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 06:34 PM

We just need Cavorite. (See H G Wells).

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 06:14 PM

It would make modern aerodynamics obsolete like the Sailing Age.

Legendary ufo's seem to to have the properties of a negative mass drive plus unbelievable acceleration.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 21 - 06:05 PM

negative mass and anti gravity
If we ever learn how to find and then mine negative mass we might make vehicals as seen in Independance Day II

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM

If we assume all of the missing matter in the universe is dark matter 'residue' it could mean compared to existing matter it would have originally only been 0.000009% of the annihilation explosion. As such it should still outnumber positive mass ninty to one. My hypothetical broken quark fluid would not be considered baryonic matter.
Personally I would not assume all the missing matter to be dark negative mass residue. I do not know why. I just do. I don't have any ideas about its predicted anti gravity properties either, especially when it is 'pulled' and races away. That is too counter intuitive for me even if I were shown a math proof. Maybe cold plasma electrodynamics hasn't been invented yet.:^/

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 08:30 AM

Correction: for every billion parts of matter plus a billion parts of anti matter = 2 BILLION
I'll take !% of 2 billion as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 08:24 AM

The reason for the discussion of light is because it is sometimes helpful to know what something is not before you know what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM

Snideness aside if I were to think out loud (in text) we have a few clues to work with to describe negative matter. The first obvious clue is evidence of gravity and the second is absence of light
(invisibility). What is surprising to most people will be that we are still in the process of discovering what light is. You might say light is a photon but thats not the whole story. Great Physicists have step by step tried to unravel what light is.
What I would ask of dark matter/neg mass theory is under what conditions is there NO LIGHT, no interaction of photons with this unknown substance.

Let me spend 10 minutes talking about who and what we know about light before I talk about conditions of where and why light does not exist. I see photons as discrete tiny energy packets that do not interact with other photons but instead interact with other 'stuff'.

HISTORY OF THE PHOTON

Since Descartes, several scientists have studied this phenomena and have become more curious about light. This curiosity has led to discoveries about the physical properties of light.. One popular property of light is that it is electromagnetic radiation. Another property is that it can be quantized. When light is quantized, it is called a photon. Huygens, Newton, Hooke, Young, Fresnel, Faraday, Maxwell, Hertz, Planck, Lewis, Einstein, Lenard, Schrodinger, De Broglie, and Feynman have all contributed to the modern theories of light.

These are th contributions of each one; (you may want to skip this part)
Huygens explained how wave theory accounts for geometrical optics. Geometrical optics describes light propagation in terms of "rays".

Newton”s theory of light was based on Descartes. Though, Descartes was responsible for discovering the mechanical properties of light; he believed in corpuscularism. This philosophy discusses corpuscles ( or particles) and their interaction. Newton took Descartes’idea and developed the corpuscular theory of light. This theory states that light is a stream of particles.
Hooke investigated the phenomenon of refraction.Refraction is the phenomenon of light or radiation being deflected as it passes obliquely through the interface through a mediums of varying density.He suggested that light's vibrations could be perpendicular to the direction of propagation. A quantum system called “Hooke’s atom”is named for him. It is an artificial helium-like atom. In this system, the coulombic electron-nucleus interaction potential is replaced by a harmonic potential. The harmonic potential used to describe the electron-nucleus interaction is a consequence of Hooke's law. Hooke’s law states that the stress applied to an object is proportional to the strain produced.

Young studied the wave theory of light. He proved that the property of interference existed in waves of light. This was done by doing the double slit experiment. This experiment displays the wave-particle nature of matter. In regards to interference, the property of superposition is displayed. This property affirms the existence of entanglement.Entanglement involves properties of quantum states correlating with each other in quantum systems.

Fresnel was responsible for diffraction. Diffraction is the process by which a beam of light or radiation is spread out as a result of passing through either a narrow aperture or edge. This is accompanied by interference between the waveforms produced.

Faraday also established that magnetism could affect rays of light and that there was an underlying relationship between the two phenomena.

Maxwell proposed that light was a product of the interaction or entanglement of the electric and magnetic fields. An electric field is a region around a charged particle or object within which a force would be exerted on other charged particles or objects. Magnetic fields are produced by electric currents. It is an area around a moving electric charge within which the force of magnetism acts. An insight to this is that-if the photon, light or a quantum of electromagnetic energy, is a product of two fields interacting then other particles would be products of the interactions of other fields.

Planck discovered the concept of blackbody radiation. Blackbody radiation is the electromagnetic radiation that is radiated from an ideal black body. A black body is an object that is capable of absorbing all of the electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. The distribution of energy in the radiated spectrum of a black body depends on temperature .

Gilbert Lewis , who created the lewis dot structures for chemistry, also studied photochemistry. Photochemistry is the branch of chemistry concerned with the chemical effects of light. Because of this, he coined the word “photon” A photon is a particle representing a quantum of light or other electromagnetic radiation. It carries energy proportional to the radiation frequency but has zero rest mass. It is also an elementary particle and a force carrier. A force carrier is the product of forces between particles arising from the exchange of other particles.

Einstein is credited for the photoelectric effect. The photoelectric effect happens when electrons are emitted from matter. The electrons are emitted because the matter absorbs energy from electromagnetic radiation. This electromagnetic radiation has a short wavelength.

Lenard, through experimenting with cathode rays, discovered that the energy of the electron depends on the wavelength of light.

Schrodinger studied that light was coherent. This proves that light has the property of superposition.

De Broglie used the concept of frequency in mathematical relations to define wavelengths. There is another type of frequency. This is called angular frequency. Angular frequency is also known as angular speed. It measures the rotation rate similar to the twist in orbits or shape of DNA.

Feynman studied how light and matter interacted. He created the theory of quantum electrodynamics. This a quantum field theory that deals with the electromagnetic field and its interaction with electrically charged particles. He created a new notation to describe the interactions.
______________________________________________________________

Now what the heck is the (no light) invisible mass world and where did it come from". I propose it came from the anti matter - matter EXPLOSION that created Energy release, Higgs Field production and lots of "residue". For every billion parts of matter only one part of our matter was left intact. If 99% became radiation and just 1% became an elementary residue - thats alot of residue comared to our positive mass. I'll take 1% of a billion dollars.

I can only guess that this residue is something like fractured quarks. I do not think they are particles as we know it like anti protons McGrath.

I would add that it would be incorrect to think 2kg. of negative matter would weigh minus 2 kg.. My thoughts on this strange matter goes father but this already too long for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM

Redarse Sounds like a good name for a Super Hero. Get onto Marvel with a synopsis... Maybe he (or she) could be a Viking with anger management issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 05:23 AM

We had a fellow student in my university days whose nickname was Redarse. I'm thinking of restoring the word to my lexicon, useful soubriquet for people who lack the courage to say things directly but who specialise in making snide remarks instead. Strange thing, this two-dimensional world...

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 05:21 AM

If the negativity just related to the gravity aspect of mass, I'd have thought it'd be in a way analogous to what you get with positrons and anti-protons, where there doesn't appear to be any impact on m in that equation. The very concept of being negative in itself seems a puzzlingly complex one.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM

To some extent or another we are all prone to wall off realities we don't understand. When we can't even see them its not a matter of being at fault or being bad. Sometimes we are lucky for being untrained or lucky to be highly trained. Eienstien may have been lucky that his father made dynamos or that Schwartzfeld was a contemporary.

"Sometimes there is a great notion"
Ken Keysey

E = neg.mC2? = WTF I can't begin to imagine that one so I'll wall it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 04:05 AM

to be told that my intellect walls me off, etc.,

It rings bells with others. Someone had to point it out.

Something fundamental is missing - how ironic.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM

So, if e=mc2 what happens with negative mass; negative energy?

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 08:24 PM

Interesting stuff there, Donuel, and written in language I could almost understand.

Thanks for the thread. (Warts and all...)

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 07:58 PM

Your point being...?

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 07:34 PM

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0705/0705.2908.pdf



https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/cosmologists-prove-negative-mass-can-exist-in-our-universe-250a980320a7

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 07:21 PM

I rest my case, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 06:46 PM

Some of the worst BS was the Tao of Physics but I do like the point that cosmology is very close to spiritual religion in some respects although there is no substitution for observation and proof.

A mathmatical deduction of negative matter probably has more to it than observation of its gravitional influence, weak interactions and virtual invisibility. Do you have any math explainations that would clarify this conundrum?

I would deduce there was an existing Higgs field for negative matter to have mass and gravity.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:36 PM

Let's get back to negative mass, which could make for a rather more positive thread.

"Standard" negative matter involves anti-protons and positrons and so forth, as I understand, and it's a matter of opposite electric charges, as I understand it, but not opposite gravity. Negative mass matter would be something else entirely. I'd love to see some scientists with the skill to translate the implications of these kind of ideas into comprehensible language.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:23 PM

He's still patronising, even in that last post, in spite of the fact that he has neither the wit, the sense or the intellect to see it through. A charlatan through and through, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:17 PM

"I've never met him, I never will and he doesn't know anything about me."

That's why I meant by questioning whether it's right to see the remarks as truly "personal". It's shadow boxing really, and there's no point in getting upset at anyone fighting with your shadow. Or talking patronising about it.

I always like what Rabbi Blue liked to say, to himself and others "Don't take it so heavy"

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 03:26 PM

This would be a good time to introduce the Emotional Immune system.
Some people have no negative reaction to a setback or a perceived setback. They naturally do not worry about things they can not control. The middle ground things that they can partially control are what concerns them.
A strong emotional immune system does not injure them more by worrying about the bad thing that happened. The bad thing could be the ugly truth or an imagined injury. The more they dwell on it the worse it feels. Roman Stoic philosophers realized how much happier people can make themselves with a deliberate point of view. It can be transformative. One can even make themselves savor things that are things that could be the last time they do some things because there will be a last time for everything. Without being morose about it even stoicly mowing the lawn or making dinner can give a savored satisfaction. I am not the resident philosopher here but experiencing joy instead of negative programed thoughts is worthwhile. This is not the stoicism in the Websters definition but more of a philosophy or psychology. A version of this in modern parlance is 'don't sweat the small stuff'. In this community I think we all have seen Keb's emotional immune system grow stronger, perhaps mine and hopefully one day even Steve's who I think perhaps bruises too easily. There is much more to say about the E immune system but I have preached enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 12:48 PM

I find it offensive to be told that my intellect walls me off, etc., and that I am frozen in time, etc. I've never met him, I never will and he doesn't know anything about me. In addition, I have never called him a mystic (Mystic Meg maybe, in his fantasy world). Then he bigs himself up as some kind of quantum guru when all he does is indulge in obscurantist, unfocused know-nothing waffle. It's idiotic behaviour and I've asked him to desist on numerous occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 12:27 PM

I whole heartedly agree McGrath. Steve actually allowed me to go into a more spiritual/inventive viewpoint which I already know he would not agree with. I should thank him for that.
Now I have to finish with the outdoor christmas lights. We all have our own preferences regarding wastes of time. Mine is the section called BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 12:12 PM

I'd hesitate to call those remarks "personal", Steve. And I'd need to be insulted in a much more direct way before I'd dream of putting in an official complaint. (And I have been, and didn't.)

Of course Donuel's flaring up like that was pretty uncalled for, as a response to a mild throwaway comment.

I think the Covid is getting us all down and at times liable to flair up. Roll on Jab Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 11:09 AM

I did not know you can splice genes with CRISPR or that you are more spiritual than me, not that there is anything wrong with that.
This entire topic is unsubstantiated. For you to say it doesn't matter is unsubstantiated. This entire trial is unsubstantiated! :^O
Yes you have been instrumental in striking my words from the record.
Mods know I have never objected because it simply is not important to
my ego which I consider a foolish and tiny aspect to consciousness. I'm more interested in how we would ever collect negative matter and not your negative matters. Remember I still respect you as a person. Inclusveness matters.

Foolish lawsuits are all he rage these days. Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 10:30 AM

You made personal remarks that you can't substantiate. A complaint about you has gone in.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM

There you go again, more walls. I have no ownership of a topic.
You asked me to be more straight forward, I am.
Your tone is to dismiss all I have to say and cry shut up.
A spiritual aspect of science is not bollocks but I dare say you have built a wall between a spiritual realization and intellect alone.
I say to hell with all of your cease and decist orders.
We will never be 'ONE' until we are both in the ground consumed by maggots, then we will be one.
Till then we are different.
Nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 08:49 AM

I know this is your thread, but that doesn't give you licence to talk utter condescending bollocks. Cease and desist.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 08:34 AM

Steve you have an intellect. But in your case it walls you off from further possibilities and freedoms. Reading between the lines we are actualy discussing a substance that has anti gravity. This could change the inflation theory of the big bang and anti gravity drives that ufos seem to have exploited. I don't want to put the cart before the horse but when most of the universe could be made of this strange stuff it deserves a second look. You are more than a biologist, you are a botanist as well but frozen in time. A modern biologist works in a theatre of CRISPR and gene therapy not imagined in your early education. Today you are more valuable as an ethicist than an experimentalist and researcher.
There is nothing wrong with that. The future is here as well as the past. Now is a strange amalgum. You once dismissed me as a mystic, it is true that I consider the fact I am made of the cosmos and have a special relationship with the cosmos and cosmology that we all should share. I don't want walls to block the knowable. I wouldn't mind knowing what is unknowable. In short ideally you are more than a biologist whether you want that or not.

If I was as talented as Jules Verne I would write about anti gravuty negative matter miners and the challenges they would face.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 08:04 AM

https://phys.org/news/2018-12-bizarre-dark-fluid-negative-mass.html#:~:text=Dark%20matter%20may%20be%20an,matter%20that%20we%20c

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 07:32 AM

Eienstien admitted he may have to take account of the possibility that negative matter exists but had no immediate plans to do so.

There is a group of cosmologists that have claimed the early universe made unique black holes made from dark matter.
Where we are today is a world of possibilities regarding negative matter. I wish I could understand if its existence would change anything regarding the well proven actions and computations of quantum mechanics and micro gravity. The macro world postulates pulling on negative matter makes it race away. I dunno why but inertia is supposed to act differently on the stuff.

I have read many science journals and Quora bits and pieces but its all questions and no answers. I'm the one audaciously using the word fundamental.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 07:07 AM

Wot the eye don't see the heart don't grieve over innit...

(Steve, a mere biologist)

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 06:49 AM

I understand about two words out of 15 but keep it up!

I did think I read recently that a black hole is more 'accessible' than had been thought. Nicht wahr?

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 06:20 AM

Trying to conceive of what "negative mass" could mean is bewildering. You could conceive a kind of particle that would repel "ordinary" particles gravitationally rather than attract them. (Which evidently isn't how it works with "
standard" anti-matter.) But that's only what aspect of 'mass" - and since it's not really right to think in terms of gravity "attracting. But rather of distorting space it's hard to conceive how "repulsion" could translate into that way of seeing it.

"Bewildering" is an understatement.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:43 PM

Don.. I picked that because it showed up in my newsfeed today. It just seemed like an interesting take on the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:32 PM

foo! It refuses to show the music notes now....
What have you done, Max?

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:31 PM

?"I got plenty of nutin',and nutin's plenty for me."?

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:16 PM

Wierd I know Bill but for 2 different reasons this what we could expect from an early black hole composed of negative matter*. Strange you would pick that example.

Missing matter estimates have been decreasing as time goes on lately.

*1 neg matter can push back on surrounding attracting mass. 2 An accretion disk would fade away with no incoming mass.

I can not visualize a Higgs field as a fluid nor can I mentally picture negative mass. It obviously does not interact with photons and other massless particles. This is what makes it a possible candidate for dark matter. It seems to me it only partially interacts with the gravity of our regular matter. In my thought experiment I keep going to 2 different forms of negative matter to explain dark energy. Literally, I got nutin.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:08 PM

Now it seems that a HUGE bit of stuff we can't see is no longer there

https://www.sciencealert.com/somehow-a-colossal-supermassive-black-hole-is-missing-in-action

We don't even have the right nomenclature to speculate on negative nothingness.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 12:15 PM

I think negative mass is on sale through "Weight Watchers" (Plc) :-)

Ether that or it is a cousin of negative gravity, and we certainly had that (still have it till Jan 20) in the US & in the UK for another 4 years. Negative G pops-out from negative time and - boy don't we wish for that, like about 4 years (5 in the UK).






I'll get my invisibility cloak..................

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 11:05 AM

Negative mass may be like the supposed 100MPG carburetor-- no one can find it because it's been hidden.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130890-400-metaphysics-special-why-is-there-something-rather-than-nothing/

"German philosopher Martin Heidegger’s angst-ridden non-answer to what he called “the fundamental question” was that a fear of nothing was the defining feature of the human condition. We certainly seem scared that nothing is some kind of universal default. But why should we presume that nothing is more likely than something? After all, if we accept that we exist to ask the question, then we’ve proved something exists. It’s a whole lot harder to prove that nothing can exist."

It seems to me that Heidegger explained both why we keep looking and why we'll never find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 10:20 AM

I wouldn't expect it was just lying aound.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 09:44 AM

People have been looking for negative mass for about 50 years. Nobody's found any.

Subject: RE: BS: Something fundamental is missing (Neg. mass)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 08:42 AM

Interesting - I put "negative mass" into my search engine and some staggering stuff came up, and all from genuine scientific sources.

Makes my head hurt. Heisenberg was spot on when he said "Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think.” Strikes me, not only do we know virtually nothing, most of what we know isn't really true.
.........
Incidentally, at a more mundane level, it's curious that we've develeped an idiom of writing that "we googled something" even when, as in my case, we avoid using Google.
A bit like the way we "Hoover the floor" with a Dyson, or "Butter the bread" with Lurpak or whatever.

Subject: BS: Something fundamental is missing
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 11:42 AM

Something fundamental is missing Dr. Watson, a mystery is afoot.
Between Special relativity and Quantum mechanics there is something missing that could modify both systems toward more coherency. If found, it would be a game changer but probably not the theory of everything.

That one thing may be as simple as negative mass. An atom has a negative particle, a neutron and a positive particle. Negative mass has some people proposing it may even be the dark matter blob like fluid and has the potential for acting like dark energy as well.

Richard Feynman proposed that time also goes backward so negative mass may not be the only one thing we got wrong. I don't know one Maxwell equation from another and lack certain fundamentals but the properties of negative mass are amazing and unintuitive. Push on it and it pushes back. Pull it and it acclerates away.

Where did negative mass come from? The annihilation of a billion anti matter atoms and a billion postive matter atoms supposedly left one postive mass atom out of the fray to go its merry way. Thats a helluva lot of annihilated residue that didn't all zip away as pure energy. The left over positive mass is everything we are and see in the universe.

The great annihilation event may have also become the invisible negative mass fluid we are calling dark matter and the missing mass in the universe.

We have room for mass, massless particles so why not negative mass?