Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 04:22 AM

Why do we expect song lyrics to stand up as poetry? They rarely do. Poems set to music are often too clumsy to sing. Many famous pop, rock, jazz, country and blues songs are repetitive phrases and appealing vowel sounds that work well for the singer, and on an emotive level strike a chord for the listener. When you examine the lyrics, they are often meaningless, shallow and far from poetry, but sometimes they just work and become memorable hits. Do we expect too much of folk songs, expecting a good narrative, a profound message, a great original melody, an emotional connection and first rate poetry as well?

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 03:45 AM

Was i short of Toilet paper?

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 05:33 PM

No Dick. When I tried to buy one, they told me you got the last one.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 05:29 PM

For the times they are a-changin'
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'


mind you, that is apt and accurate.
Jeri was Bobbie one of your pin up posters?

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 03:30 PM

Now THAT one is possibly my favorite. It's strnge how he mashed the visual and auditory together - don't say it twice when you can do it as effectively once.

And if you like Dylan's songs and don't have the album "Chimes of Freedom", you gotta get it

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 03:12 PM

Chimes of Freedom (B Dylan, w+m)

Far between sundown’s finish and midnight’s broken toll
We ducked inside the doorways, thunder went crashing
As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
Seemin' to be the chimes of freedom flashing
Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
And for each and every underdog soldier in the night
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing


Through the city’s melted furnace, unexpectedly we watched
With faces hidden as the walls were tightening
As the echo of the wedding bells before the blowin’ rain
Dissolved into the bells of the lightning
Tolling for the rebel, tolling for the rake
Tolling for the luckless, they abandoned and forsaked
Tolling for the outcast, burning constantly at stake
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing


Through the mad mystic hammering of the wild ripping hail
The sky cracked it's poems in naked wonder
That the clinging of the church bells blew far into the breeze
Leavin' only bells of lightning and it's thunder
Striking for the gentle, striking for the kind
Striking for the guardians and protectors of the mind
And the poet and the painter far behind his rightful time
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing


And the wild cathedral evening the rain unraveled tales
For disrobed faceless forms of no position
Tolling for the tongues with no place to bring their thoughts
All down in taken-for-granted situations
Tolling for the deaf and blind, tolling for the mute
For the mistreated, mateless mother, the mistitled prostitute
For the misdemeanor outlaw, chained and cheated by pursuit
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing


Even though a cloud’s white curtain in a far-off corner flared
And the hypnotic splattered mist was slowly lifting
Electric light still struck like arrows, fired but for the ones
Condemned to drift or else be kept from driftin'
Tolling for the searching ones, on their speechless, seeking trail
For the lonesome-hearted lovers with too personal a tale
And for each unharmful, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

Starry-eyed and laughing as I recall when we were caught
Trapped by no track of hours for they hanged suspended
As we listened one last time and we watched with one last look
Spellbound and swallowed ’til the tolling ended
Tolling for the aching whose wounds cannot be nursed
For the countless confused, accused, misused, strung-out ones and worse
And for every hung-up person in the whole wide universe
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashin'

I liked Dylan's take back in the 1960s, but Springsteen does a great live take in Germany, although he disappeared a few stanzas.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:03 PM

It's very trite "poetry," though, Jeri, but, as I said (sort of), duff lyrics do not necessarily a bad song make...

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 01:57 PM

Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake,
Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break.
quote
reminiscent of w McGonagall

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 01:47 PM

It's one of my favorites, #.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 01:18 PM

Every Grain of Sand (B Dylan, w+m)

In the time of my confession, in the hour of my deepest need
When the pool of tears beneath my feet flood every newborn seed
There's a dyin' voice within me reaching out somewhere,
Toiling in the danger and in the morals of despair.

Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake,
Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break.
In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand
In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear,
Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer.
The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way
To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.

I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame
And every time I pass that way I always hear my name.
Then onward in my journey I come to understand
That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand.

I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night
In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintry light,
In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space,
In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face.

I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea
Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me.
I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man
Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand.


Here is a version as done by Lizz Wright:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFN4cRQT58s&list=PLuuPFCrcsWlETr03bggXvNhuAW-QH2tg0

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:36 AM

There's a worm at the bottom of my garden,
And his name is Wiggly Woo.
There's a worm at the bottom of my garden
And all that he can do
Is wiggle all day and wiggle all night--
The neighbors say what a terrible fright!
There's a worm at the bottom of my garden,
And his name is Wiggly,
Wig-Wig-Wiggly,
Wig-Wig-Wiggly Woo!

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:05 AM

I think His Bobness has written a few very good songs, a larger number of good songs, and an even larger number of songs that, at best, fall into the ‘Meh’ category.

As a singer, he’s made a few very good recordings, a larger number of good recordings, and an even larger number of recordings that, at best, fall into the ‘Meh’ category.

I couldn’t listen to an entire evening of Dylan performing his own songs, yet I’ve been to a number of evenings of other people performing Dylan’s songs and thoroughly enjoyed them. And, like Nick, BITW blew me away when I first heard it back around ‘62 or ‘63 - I still think it’s one of his best, although ‘Positively 4th Street’ takes a lot of beating, and I do love ‘Murder Most Foul’ from his most recent album.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:58 AM

Heard sung by a pub pianist in Islington about 40 years ago....

(tune- Tiddly winky woo)

'Wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly woo
I love you
Wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly woo
Love me too
I love you in thwe morning and I love you in the night
I love you when you're sober and I love you when you're tight
Wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly wiggly woo
I love you'

now there's a wiggly wiggly song for you.....the 'folk' in the pub loved it.....

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:28 AM

When I first heard Blowin' in the wind sung by Dylan, I was completely blown away. I played it over and over again. I still say there is nobody who can do that song justice other than the man himself. The simple trick of using the subdominant chord in the penultimate line (Sorry! take another listen if you have time) makes the song for me.
I had a long chat with Martin Carthy about Dylan in the early days. Martin described him as a blotting pad for tunes songs and ideas. So what went wrong then? Nothing at all? Some people might say money, and the mainstream music business, demanding commercially viable songs? If I know Dick this is the subtext of this thread.
How do we evaluate success? Money and sales, artistic achievement?
Good lyrics strong tunes?
Dylan recorded 'Canadee-I-o'. I think it was awful. Had Nic Jones recorded that song unaccompanied, would anybody have taken any notice? Some might say it's a piece of guitar playing with a song attached.
So in the case of Dylan how many people buy his 'sound' rather than the songs and lyrics?
I don't mean to hijack the thread or any disrespect to Dick (Far from it) but I think it is worth some thought.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:12 AM

Permit me to argue from gleeful pig ignorance. I've only ever liked two or three Dylan songs and have probably sat through about six others, sung by him, end to end. There are a few that others sang that I knew were written by him and very likely some more that I didn't know were by him. That has all made me decide that I thoroughly don't like him much (and I know Joe doesn't agree, but I think that what he did with that Nic Jones arrangement that he failed to acknowledge was just diabolical). The trouble is that down the decades I've failed to "judge" his songs mainly because I can't stand the bugger's voice in any of its manifestations (and, speaking as a harmonica player myself, don't get me started on that ghastly aspect of his stuff). That has all demotivated me from seeking out his songs for closer perusal. Thing is, inane or deliberately obscurantist lyrics, his apparent modus operandi, do not necessarily a bad song make. To sum up, if you love him you love him and if you hate him you hate him. The in-between state is one of "I can't be arsed with that whiny songster, and I'll give you a good squabble if you try to tell me that he's some sort of visionary poet*, but all power to your elbow if you disagree". That's where I am. I think.

*Even Bob doesn't think that. I'm just off to listen to my Woody collection. Now that bloke really DID know how to make up a song...

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM

How is that different to any other forum?

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:02 PM

This is a music forum, Discussion of standard of consistency of Dylans songwriting is valid.

...i know well written and poorly written songs when i see them, if you do not like it...

That's not a standard. That is a consumer preference. Validity & consistency are irrelevant.

Most people do not 'like' most songs. It's the nature of consumerism. One lives or dies on less than 1% market share, 0.33% is boffo.

The only writers who produce more hits than clinkers are "one hit wonders."

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 09:30 AM

Joe, thanks. I was just trying to encompass the songs being talked about, and not be inflammatory. So "problem" was a problem.
Dick's problem logging in, as far as I know from a PM, is choosing not to post while logged in, which is his right.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 06:51 AM

I `ad Bob`s agent in my cab the other day. Incidentally with all this virus and whatnot `e was only one of three fares I `ad that day.
I said, "Morning Mr.Tenpercent. I see that Mudcat is giving your Bob Dylan the treatment again."
`e said. "Yeah Jim. I saw it and told Bob. `aving flogged all the copyrights to `is songs `e`s starting a new portfolio. `e said the Mudcat lark `as inspired `im with a new number. `e`s gonna call it "There`s No Such Thing as Bad Publicity""
I said, "You`re right there. Nice little earner!!"


Whaddam Im Like??

Subject: RE: Sandman and Problems With Dylan Songs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:35 AM

Bowie’s lyrics have a tendency towards bollix-ness because of his practice of taking random words and phrases from newspaper articles and organising them into a semi-random order which suited his lyrical purposes.

But he was such a Dude. <3

Subject: RE: Sandman and Problems With Dylan Songs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:17 AM

Life On Mars? by Bowie is my very favourite pop song. I even love that multicolour video. Means a lot to me, it does. The words are probably bollix and I've always resisted anyone's attempts to interpret them for me. Come on, Dick, gimme a fight! ;-)

(The "?" Is correct, by the way. It's part of the title).

Subject: RE: Sandman and Problems With Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 04:55 AM

Yes, Joe and as i said earlier,
Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 12:20 PM

But I have to thank Dylan,during the nineteen sixties, he moved american folk music in to the sixties, which meant as a teenager you were not considered a weirdo , by your school friends if you sang woody guthrie songs , as Dylan introduced teenagers in the uk indirectly to Guthries songs" quote
Jim McLean had a very valid criticism of masters of war, a similiar criticism can be aimed at universal soldier, both are a tad simplistic. sung together they have the answer, imo

Subject: Sandman and Discussion of Dylan Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 04:37 AM

Dick has been having login problems, so he has been posting as a guest.
Jeri's suggestion of a more-encompassing title was a good one, but I'm changing it to a title that is less provocative.

Dick has a point. There are many songs that Dylan wrote, where all I can respond is, What WAS he thinking? And for that matter, how could be be awarded the 2016 Nobel Prize in Literature for THAT???

There are times when I think that Dylan wrote highly literate and interesting songs until he reached the age of about 30, and then he quit and collected royalties for the rest of his life. I remember back in the 1990s when I went to a Dylan concert in Sacramento with a date I didn't like, and listened to a crap concert and was fully disgusted. And then I had to take the date out to dinner and pretend to be interested while she babbled. It's the first concert I ever attended where I had to be body-searched before I could get in the gate. Another band opened - I think they were "The Clash," and I hated them. Then Dylan came on and sang for 45 minutes without ever saying a word in between songs, and then he left. He was backed up by that awful band, and they sang a set of songs that bordered on punk.

I wrote a review in the Sacramento Bee, and later found that the concert I attended was one of Dylan's legendarily awful concerts, maybe the worst of them all. And my date was legendarily boring and self-involved and really wanted me to marry her, and I'm very glad I didn't. She's dead now, so I can say this.

But as I've ripened into Old Age, I've taken a more generous view of Dylan and most everybody else, including the Extremely Boring and Emotionally Needy Date who wanted to marry me in the worst way because I was such a Nice Guy.

People condemn Dylan for recording traditional songs with his own twist and making megabucks from them. But if you listen to them with an open mind, you can see that he really got into these songs and did a very thoughtful job of interpreting them - and the fact that he recorded them, gives these songs another hundred years in the public eye.

So, yeah, I feel like I was totally ripped off at that awful Sacramento concert, but I also have to admit that Dylan has exposed me to a lot of traditional songs I might not otherwise have encountered. And although I may hate his interpretations at times, he has driven me to explore these songs more deeply and really get to know them.

So, I guess I'd say I have a love/hate relationship with Bob Dylan, and I think Sandman would say he has the same. Dick and I have learned a lot from Dylan, even though we profess to hate him.

Am I right, Dick?

-Joe-


P.S. And may my Boring Date rest in peace. She pursued me for a couple of years and bought us concert tickets and took me to fancy restaurants I couldn't afford. She tried really hard to buy my affection, but I kept feeling smothered whenever she was around. I felt obliged to be nice, but I never led her on in any way. I would give her a flaccid hug when forced to, but never kissed her. She would talk on and on when she called on the telephone, and she would call back multiple times when I hung up on her. Good thing I married a more tolerable woman....
But hey, she DID take me to a terrific Bonnie Raitt concert.

Subject: RE: Sandman and Problems With Dylan Songs
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 03:59 AM

Jeri,
you are wrong, there are some songs that he wrote that i like Masters of war[ jim mcleans crticism, however is valid], Blowing in the wind, Times they are changing, and if you read more carefully you would have noticed that i had mentioned at least two of those favourably.
Jeri, you clearly are a Dylan fan,accept that other people have more mixed assesment of his wor, so far i have not been alone. Jim McLean and Modette have reservations
Dave theGnome , i have chosen to be a guest mind your own business.
Jeri . I have a better idea. put the original title back
Jim McLean i was trying to say what is Farewell Angelina about? it is quite clear what farewell to Tarwathie is about

Subject: RE: Sandman and Problems With Dylan Songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 03:08 AM

Everyone has their bad days. Even you do silly things sometimes, Dick. Why are you posting as a guest BTW?

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:19 PM

That's what Jim was agreeing to.
I'll change the title, and if Dick or anyone has a better idea, let me know.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: meself
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:56 PM

Jim, I believe The Sandman's disdain was directed at Dylan, not you.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:41 PM

I agree Jeri.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:25 PM

I think it might be a good idea to change the thread title, since it's not about either of the two songs in there. Perhaps "Sandman's Opinions on Dylan Songs"? Or maybe "Dylan Songs Sandman Doesn't Like. So far, we have Wiggle, Wiggle; Ballad in Plain D; The Mighty Quinn; Masters of War; Farewell Angelina. I don't see any other purpose for the thread.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

The Sandman, I don’t understand your post you asked if Farewell Angelina was an original tune and I showed it wasn’t.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:35 AM

Farewell tae Tarwathie, well it has more meaning than farewell angelina.WTF is that all about

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:29 AM

Farewell Angeline: tune Farewell tae Tarwathie ...... Dylan not only used the tune but played with the title.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: GUEST,guest The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:30 AM

Jim McLean pointed out the weakness of message of Masters of War
Masters of War is one of Dylans better songs, at least it has a message, unlike wiggle wiggle or ballad in plain d or the mighty quinn
Farewell Angelina has a pleasant tune[ is it an original tune?]

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: GUEST,Guest Dick Miles
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 02:37 PM

Fair enough, Jim. may I applaud your decision to be a conscientous objector

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 01:48 PM

I posted as a conscientious objector who served jail time for it. It angers me to listen to this kind of song, Masters of War, where we as individuals can make a stand, it’s our fault we have wars, we can say ‘No’ to the recruiting sergeants.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:31 AM

the same point could be aimed at the universal soldier, it is more complicted it is not just the soldier who is to blame but the masters of war
He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls
But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war

---

Universal Soldier is in the DT here, and posted a few hundred times.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

well that is a good point, how do you think the song compares to the universal soldier, written by buffy saint marie.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 06:40 AM

The Sandman, the trouble I have with Masters of War is that it puts all the blame on weapons manufacturers and lets off individual responsibility.
It’s like blaming breweries for drunkenness.
One can say “No” to enlisting and being a lush, but this song allows one to blame some else rather than one’s self.

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 21 - 04:32 AM

The analysis of songs whether they be poorly written or well written and their message is an important part of being able to write well crafted songs

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 12:20 PM

But I have to thank Dylan,during the nineteen sixties, he moved american folk music in to the sixties, which meant as a teenager you were not considered a weirdo , by your school friends if you sang woody guthrie songs , as Dylan introduced teenagers in the uk indirectly to Guthries songs

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 03:35 AM

In my experience music crtics state their opinion regardless of whether the artist gives a shit.
Judging songwriting and songs is not a purely subjective opinion, some basic pointers
    Tell a unique story in your song
    Steer clear of cliché and overused metaphors
   
    Avoid common rhymes
   

    Make your point with as few lyrics as possible.
So even the points made above are debatable, but songs can be judged on how well written they are and their melodies, and what they say or do not say.
Let us take a better song by Bob Dylan
How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, and how many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
Yes, and how many years must a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
And how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, and how many times can a man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
Yes, and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
And how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
1.rhe song has a good memorable melody
2 Is its message clear? mostly, yes
let us compare it to a song written partly by Pete Seeger Lyrics
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the flowers gone?
The girls have picked them every one.
Oh, When will you ever learn?
Oh, When will you ever learn?
Young girls
They've taken husbands every one.
Young men
They're all in uniform.
Soldiers
They've gone to graveyards every one.
Graveyards
They're covered with flowers every one.
Flowers
Young girls have picked them every one.
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Peter Seeger
Where Have All the Flowers Gone lyrics © Concord Music Publishing LLC

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 21 - 02:18 AM

Jeri, I am not concerned what either you or Dylan think.Dylan says the Mighty Quinn is a nusery rhyme , well believe it or not Nursery rhymes have meanings and often relate to historical events,The Mighty Quinn is just a meaningless example of one of Dylans POORER EFFORTS

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 06:00 PM

The Ashley Hutchings All Stars did great versions of Ballad in Plain D and Angelina in 1988!!!

Subject: RE: Wiggle, Wiggle / Ballad in Plain D (Dylan)
From: GerryM
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 05:51 PM

I look forward to future discussions of The Worst Songs of Rodgers & Hammerstein, Really Bad Lyrics of Steven Sondheim, Horrible Stuff from Joni Mitchell, What Was Gordon Lightfoot Thinking? and so on. Could be a really great feature of this website.

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 05:12 PM

Jeri , this is a music forum, we are entitled to discuss his good and his bad songs-, Jeri, i know well written and poorly written songs when i see them, if you do not like it, you are free to ignore the thread.

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 03:31 PM

Dick, I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, because, Dick, I don't think you can understand. I think there's a certain sub-text that's just a bit too obscure for you.

What if, Dick, Dylan had INTENDED to be silly? What if there was an element of whimsey and humor that you're just not capable of understanding, Dick? I think you're disgruntled because something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Miles? Dylan doesn't give a shit whether you get it, or don't, and it's not worth me being involved in whatever this is. I'm pretty sure the audience here either doesn't care, or is tired of your issues. Good luck.

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 01:49 PM

the mighty quinn, Dylan quote, i dont know what its about ,some kind of nursery ryhme

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 02:59 PM

Lay Lady Lay
Bob Dylan
Lay, lady, lay
Lay across my big brass bed
Lay, lady, lay
Lay across my big brass bed
Whatever colors you have
In your mind
I'll show them to you
And you'll see them shine
Lay, lady, lay
Lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay
Stay with your man awhile
Until the break of day
Let me see you make him smile
His clothes are dirty, but his-
His hands are clean
And you're the best thing that he's
Ever seen
Stay, lady, stay
Stay with your man awhile
Why wait any longer for the world to begin?
You can have your cake and eat it too
Why wait any longer for the one you love?
When he's standing, in front of you
Lay, lady, lay
Lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay
Stay while the night is still ahead
I long to see you in the morning light
I long to reach for you in the night
Stay, lady, stay
Stay while the night is still ahead

Yes, it is not a song i find appealing.
compare it to one of the songs that other critics rate as one of his best songs.
The Times They Are A Changing
B
Come gather 'round, people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

When criticising songwriting , it is reasonable to consider how well something is written, as well as subject matter and the message of the song.

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 02:38 PM

I am fine,Jeri, how are you?
I find it intriguing that Dylan can write songs like Masters of war, aand also wiggle wiggle.
Jeri, since when have critics, including music critics had to be able to write songs, play music or sing. I do not think I am dissing Dylan when i acknowledge that masters of war is a very good song.
Jeri, when i write quote
"anything wrong with talking about his worst songs, we have discussed some of his best. it puts in to perspective his songwriting someopne who can write masters of war, but can write drivel like wiggle wiggle, maybe he wrote it as a joke."
it is clear that i think Masters of War is good , it is clear that i am talking about inconsistency in standard BETWEEN THE TWO SONGS.
This is a music forum, Discussion of standard of consistency of Dylans songwriting is valid.

Subject: RE: WIGGLE WIGGLE (Dylan)
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 01:33 PM

'Lay Lady Lay' is sexist garbage.