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Travelling in the eu with instruments

GUEST,Selby 15 Jan 21 - 10:53 AM
Howard Jones 15 Jan 21 - 05:26 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 21 - 03:21 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Mld 16 Jan 21 - 04:52 AM
GUEST,Modette 16 Jan 21 - 05:14 AM
Howard Jones 16 Jan 21 - 05:45 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 21 - 06:45 AM
Jack Campin 16 Jan 21 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,GUEST Stan Ellison 16 Jan 21 - 08:56 AM
Jack Campin 16 Jan 21 - 10:15 AM
Howard Jones 16 Jan 21 - 01:49 PM
GUEST 16 Jan 21 - 04:41 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 21 - 07:04 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 21 - 08:01 AM
Howard Jones 17 Jan 21 - 11:18 AM
Bonzo3legs 17 Jan 21 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 21 - 12:20 PM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 21 - 04:18 PM
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Subject: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:53 AM

What paperwork do we need to travel with instruments in the EU now if indeed any ?


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 05:26 PM

The thing that worries me most is CITES, which controls the import of protected species, including ivory, abalone and many hardwoods which are often found in musical instruments. The EU is a single area so CITES doesn't apply to travel within it, so we were OK before, but now it applies. There is supposed to be an exemption for musical instruments, but making sense of the rules is a nightmare. It is possible to obtain a Musical Instrument Certificate which permits you to travel with instruments which contain protected species, but that seems far from easy (it asks for the scientific name - I know the fretboard of my guitar is rosewood, but how am I supposed to know what species?). I don't know if it's possible to get an MIC to confirm that your instrument doesn't contain protected species, in case you come up against a zealous customs official.

If you're touring professionally you'll need a carnet listing all your equipment and a work visa, with different countries setting their own rules for these. That's a whole different world of pain.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 03:21 AM

thanks Howard
possibly going to France to a uke festival as a punter and usually take my uke tried hunting around for info on the net and to say the least it is sparse. A friends son is a professional musician and was told he was trying to borrow from friends instruments if he goes on tour later this year as the paperwork is horrendous .
Keith


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM

I don't see how taking a musical instrument to the EU is any different than taking any other personal possession?

You'll be fine with your Uke.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST,Mld
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 04:52 AM


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:14 AM

Isn't it worth pointing out that this is a new situation resulting from Brexit (just to make it plain)?

It's also probably only going to affect British passport holders since savvy Northern Ireland musicians tend to hold Irish passports.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:45 AM

"In general, in case of import of personal and household effects by a person normally not residing in the Community does not require an export or import permit when the person is taking up residence in the Community, except in the case of Annex A species."

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/ref/E041-EU.pdf

My emphasis. It is not clear what the position is for a visitor. There are exemptions and exclusions, but finding out what they are in clear and understandable form, and which you could show to a customs offical is difficult.

More info here, but no definitive answers:

https://www.ismtrust.org/advice/cites-and-the-rules-for-musicians

Of course CITES only applies if your instrument contains materials from a protected species. The value of the instrument will also be a factor - if it was fairly cheap and easily replaceable you might be willing to take a change, if it's worth thousands you will be more cautious.

This article suggests things should be come easier, but again finding the specific regulation is difficult:

https://reverb.com/news/cites-restrictions-on-musical-instruments-could-be-coming-to-an-end


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 06:45 AM

It certainly at the moment is a mine field hope it gets sorted soon having seen the mess I have written to my MP (for what good that will do )
Keith


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:17 AM

Surely it'll be easier to buy a new uke when you get to France and sell it at the end of the featival.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST,GUEST Stan Ellison
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:56 AM

This got discussed on UK Radio 3 today. As EU rules no longer apply you should check and comply with the rules for the specific country you visit. Perhaps the festival organisers can give you correct details.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:15 AM

I hadn't thought of abalone. If it's covered by CITES you have a real problem since so many guitars have it as an inlay and you won't be able to identify the species unless you can get the maker to document it for you.

New Zealand paua is one species - controlled, but some fishing is permitted. Tasty stuff. No idea what rules apply to the shell.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 01:49 PM

Stan, I didn't hear the Radio 3 programme, but I suspect they may have been referring to work visas for professional musicians. Those rules are set by individual countries and travelling musicians will need to check with them, although it appears that many are willing to allow visits for cultural purposes without a visa.

CITES is an international treaty governing cross-border movement of endangered species. The EU is a single entity for CITES purposes, so it applies to anything going in and out of the EU, but not to movement within it. Previously that included the UK, but now travel to the EU is "cross-border" and CITES may now be relevant if your instrument contains certain species.

Instruments are supposedly being made an exception, but finding where that is stated and what documentation may nevertheless be required is difficult. At present, obtaining a Musical Instrument Certificate seems to be the safest option, but the forms are far from easy to understand.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 04:41 PM

Bloody remoaners!

Having thousands of pounds worth of instruments confiscated by customs is nothing compared to the privilage of having a blue passport!


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:04 AM

although i posted this thread about ukes as the instrument I am also involved with a wind band theoretically going to Germany in the summer. Howard has been a great help but has certainly without intention confused me more, some wind instruments having abalone inlay on the keys.   
Hopefully we will get some clarity soon, i hope people realise traveling with instruments in the EU could be fraught problems.

A little story to show what can happen. We went to Singapore and as we came of the plane we had to put our hand luggage through a scanner. the officer at the other end saw me pick up the rucksack up and pounced on me and told me to move to a separate table where he and another officer asked me had i packed the bag myself, was I carrying anything on a list i was shown, etc all answered with a no we where then told, you can if committing an offence go to jail etc I will ask you again , again i answered no . So the undid the rucksack and after putting rubber gloves on much to my horror and amusement as i do not know what is in the bag they are after. He puts his hand in and a smile appeared on his face as he pulled out a game we had for waiting at airports called Bannanagram to much hilarity on all sides the game is in a Banana shaped bag .
Keith


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 08:01 AM

I looked up the NZ Government page on CITES and it doesn't seem like abalone should be a problem, though it doesn't seem to tell the whole story. (Some NZ seafood is restricted to Maori tribes with traditional rights over specific waters).

But one thing they do mention explicitly as a CITES issue: rainsticks.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:18 AM

I'm sorry to cause confusion, I'm confused myself. It does seem that musical instruments might now be OK, but I've been unable to find anything authorative, as opposed to press reports. However it's not an immediate concern for me so I haven't looked into it very deeply.


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:54 AM

You might have a problem taking food into the EU! Apparently some lorry drivers came unstuck with some meat sandwiches they had bought in the UK!!


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 12:20 PM

Howard I have heard the same but cannot find anything to one way or another like everybody else I don’t want to arrive at a custom place and find my instrument confiscated . See if I get any info from my MP
Keith


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Subject: RE: Travelling in the eu with instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 04:18 PM

There was a relaxation of the rules for some rosewood species (not Brazilian rosewood) in 2019. Rules on ivory are as tough as ever.

The one on whalebone is tough too. You gotta know what species of whale it came from.


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