Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump

Subject: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM

The text from the last Trump thread Trump Actions and Effects, here.


As you sow, so shall you reap. The reaping, for Donald Trump, is about to begin. The bastard will probably spend the afternoon out on the golf course. Let's hope these are his last relaxing hours. I wonder if he's even going to have an attorney at his impeachment trial. And I look forward to his being stripped of all of the usual perks of a former U.S. president.

His presentations of the presidential medals of freedom or honor will always have an asterisk, because they were given to cronies of no particular importance, people who lied for Trump, who didn't give great service to the nation.

Trump identified cracks in our laws and exploited them; now is the time to restore things to rights and fix the ones that were always broken.
I'm going to close this thread, and start a new one to follow Trump's court cases, and perhaps his managing to find a social media platform that won't kick him out - where he can spew more vitriol. If he manages to form a party it can serve as the foundation of a self-identified list of those to prosecute for the assault on the Capitol.

For those who wish to continue tracing the life events of ex-president Donald Trump, this is the one thread that can follow those accounts, indictments, and court cases. We can see if his Florida community manages to kick him out of the club at Mar a Lago, where he isn't supposed to live year-round. If the Southern District of New York charges him for tax fraud, or the State of Georgia charges him with interfering in an election, or the Justice Department charges him with insurrection or sedition, here you go. If you think of some good curses to throw his way, this is the place.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 01:59 PM

Let's get him on voter fraud! Then he can go couch-surfing when he gets tossed out of maralago.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 03:13 PM

I am hoping that his tribe of haters and destroyers will flock around him wherever he goes, camp out around Mar-a-Lago, and hinder his life in every possible way in the guise of hero worshipping.

Think of a man with a bag of hot chips in the middle of a huge flock of hungry seagulls.

Then when, at some point, he doesn't deliver according to their expectations the hungry flock might become an angry mob.

As the big orange one said, he needs to be careful what he wished for.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:31 PM

And let us not forget the financial consequences of his debts. The debt collectors will be at his door and some of his investments are not going so well at present.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM

His company is losing contracts as fast as people can pull the paperwork from the files. The City of New York had some management contracts in the parks (the ice skating rinks, for one) that are being discontinued. And a lot of the banks and big businesses are pulling back from the GOP until things get fixed. Especially the seditionist representatives and senators from the January 6 invasion of the Capitol. Trump may want to settle in at Mar a Lago and eat MacDonald's burgers, burned steaks, and Diet Coke, but I don't think he'll have much peace. I sure hope not.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:11 PM

His Florida resort doesn't want him, and he contracted that no one could live there permanently.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:56 PM

Ol' whatshisname is essentially banned from the GOP which now resides in the Lincoln project. Without PHS reinforcement on twitter, intereest is already waning. As time and indictments go on his base will shrink to previous KKK levels. Vermin will return to the woodwork making it a little more rotten but obvious that it needs repair or replacement.

whatshisname media can be found at Scourges 'R' Us.com

Bannon was pardoned today.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:45 PM

It seems a lot of heaviy armed Texans are keen to secede from the USA and make trump their leader...???..

.. well at least the trailer dwelling fukwit intervened on BBC news...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM

King donald the first of Texas...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM

Could I ask, politely, that American politics are restricted to just one thread as UK politics are ...................


Please!!

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM

It will settle down Raggy... right now we're overflowing...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM

Well though I don't agree with the restriction imposed on us Brits (not our gig, but hey), I feel that the Americans on Mudcat should be allowed a bit of slack for a short time. Decent Americans have been traumatised for the last four years, and especially for the last two weeks. I sense a massive feeling of emotional release here and I think we should just let that go for a bit. Dammit, I would have hated to have lived under Trump for the last four years. I know personally one person in the US (not a Mudcatter) who has lived in fear of her life because of her anti-Trump sentiment, which she has dared not express out loud. What a bunch of shit that is in a democracy, eh? We can take up the cudgels in a week or two, but let it ride for now, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:51 PM

Cross-posted there, Bill, but I think we're on the same page.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM

I am not sure how the rules of double jeopardy work in the USA. Trump is up for an impeachment trial by the Senate for inciting insurrection, and it will be difficult, even in the current circumstances, to have a two-thirds majority to convict him.

Does this mean he cannot be tried in a criminal court on the same or similar charges? Makes me wonder if the impeachment might be a mistake.

Mind you, there might be plenty of other things to get him for.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 06:47 AM

An extract from a 2000 document entitled Whether a Former President May Be Indicted and Tried for the Same Offenses for Which He was Impeached by the House and Acquitted by the Senate

... the Impeachment Judgment Clause, Article I, Section 3, Clause 7 of the Constitution dictates that impeachment must precede indictment. That clause provides:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indict­ment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.

To quote from the document's preamble: The Constitution permits a former President to be indicted and tried for the same offenses for which he was impeached by the House of Representatives and acquitted by the Senate.


It's quite a long read and I don't want to misrepresent it, but I infer from that bit that the Constitution, recognising the limitation of sanction that a Senate conviction holds (that is, that the convicted person can't be punished in any other way than by being removed from office or barred from holding future office), allows that the person convicted by the Senate may still be prosecuted in a criminal trial via judge and jury. That would seem to me to override the federal double jeopardy position. The document refers to a precedent in the case of Spiro Agnew, but I'll let you fish that one out at your leisure. :-)

The double jeopardy rule applies in the case of being put under risk more than once for the same charge. It isn't allowed that you can simply rename the charge to make it look like a different offence, yet rely on the same evidence. It's all a bit labyrinthine and is highly subject to interpretation by senior judiciary, sometimes right up to the Supreme Court. I'm sure that anyone minded to charge a Senate-acquitted Trump with a criminal offence will tread very carefully, but it seems to me that your Constitution would support a move to charge him with the same offence that the Senate acquitted him of.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

I'd assume that double jeopardy would no more apply in the case of an impeachment than it does in the case of civil prosecutions alongside criminal ones.

Trump could beat the rap for insurrection in the Senate, and still be found guilty in a criminal case, and the other way round. And in either case, he could still be open to related civil charges for harm caused by his actions. And that's aside from the other things that could be brought against him, civil and criminal.

I think he's going to have a pretty busy time.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM

One can but hope. And no fun whatsoever. He is not, in any way, entitled to fun.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM

Steve... there is much speculation on various TV news shows...by various experts and studious amateurs.. about what he can be charged with.

Our constitution doesn't have clear guidance on this situation as no one quite anticipated anything this egregious. There is still no clarity on the matter of *possible* self-pardons and secret pardons because T**** didn't try to pardon himself or his family.. or his accountant.. in the public list. Some think he is waiting to see what federal crimes he might be charged with, then reveal secret pardons and hope that 'his' Supreme Court will back them up.
   I see views that self pardons are against the constitution, (Prof. Lawrence Tribe of Harvard, a famous expert).. all the way to the view that almost anything a president does with pardons is allowed.
No matter how it is eventually resolved, we can be sure he will fight ANY indictments in the courts and hope to drag it out for years.
   No matter what, his life will soon be filled with lawsuits and indictments. The New York Attorney General Letitia James is said to have over 60 subpoenas ready for non-federal crimes.

We shall see..maybe soon.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM

Raggy, there is ONE Trump thread (though Steve started one to do with Biden that could bleed over onto the topic.) Be happy if we can constrain it to that.

There were some specialized sites set up that tracked Trump's offenses that now have to recalibrate. What the Fuck Just Happened Today rose within days of Trump's inauguration, and now will serve to distill news of the Biden administration and keep us updated on the legal woes of Trump. This means I don't need to go looking for it, and as long as donations keep this site up, I'll be able to save time. He reviews mainstream good-quality news sites and journals.

For example, this is one of the items in the most recent post:

4/ Trump rescinded his administration’s ethics pledge intended to “drain the swamp.” In 2017, Trump signed an executive order that barred political appointees from lobbying the government or working for foreign countries related to their agency for five years. At the time Trump joked that his political appointees would “not be subject to those commitments after noon January 20, 2021.” However, in a late-night executive order issued in the final hours of his presidency, Trump rescinded the executive order. The Trump White House did not offer any justification for the reversal. (Washington Post / Politico / Bloomberg)

Trump extended post-presidency Secret Service protection to 14 members of his family who were not entitled to receive it, at no cost. (Washington Post)

Trump declassified some documents related to the FBI’s Russia investigation. No documents, however, were immediately released. (New York Times)

I learned here about his abuse of the federal Secret Service, extending coverage to many members of his family - that has to go. And the whole ability to lobby now, that will also be quickly dealt with.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

I much prefer to have a few different threads to fit in different discussions about distinctly different aspects of a wide ranging topic, rather than trying to squeeze them into one general shouting match.

For example, what to do with Trump isn't the same thing as what to do about what he's done to the country and the world.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:31 PM

Yes, but there is so much cross talk between those multiple threads that it might as well be one. And so, for now, it is.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM

Required reading:

Luke Mogelson's article, "The Storm," about the Jan. 6 insurrection, in the Jan. 25 New Yorker.

The political context is probably worse than you imagined.

It's worse than *I* imagined, which is indeed saying something.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:08 PM

That New Yorker article and the video shot are thorough and graphic.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

The prosecution of Grump is different than the prosecution of enablers be they individuals or corporations.

Fox News just yesterday broadcast that " Democrats intend to exterminate all Republicans "   the remaining sponsors like Gold, pilows and insurance are not enough to feed the beast but Rupurt made a fortune with sensationalism to begin. It could be a sign of his end.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:49 AM

I would like to see him reduced from juggernaut...

...to just naught.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM

From the New York Times, there are a lot more bad people out in circulation now that Trump has granted them clemency. For Prosecutors, Trump’s Clemency Decisions Were a ‘Kick in the Teeth’

He's clearly identifying with part of his "base" when he sees people just like him, but they got caught.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:27 AM

Why don't we construct a Trump song much like a Roman "curse":

I once worked on an archaeological dig where they found 50 lead "curses" down the well of a Roman Temple (to Cernunnos), thus doubling the total UK find at the time. I did ask and got a general answer along the lines they would be inscribed with: "The person who stole my chicken, may his hens never lay, may his cow run dry, may his wheat fester in the ear, may his.........."
It reminded me of the Irish song - Nell Flaherty's Drake - a tour de force of curses.

AND ....... Pfr .............

 'King donald the first of Texas... - apostrophes pleas, Pfr, apostrophes! a typo, but I let it stand

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:30 AM

Here is a major piece of the prosecution's case if Trump is tried for trying to overthrow Georgia's election. This is also an impeachable offense, but the one that got him impeached was fomenting anger and causing the assault on the Capitol.

And then there are his civil cases. His family is probably busy right now burying as much of the family money as possible to protect it from seizure by banks and to avoid paying attorney's fees.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:31 AM

Oh, and Donald is from Queens, New York, NOT from Texas.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

This is also an impeachable offense

Again, I do not know enough about the American system. Could the Senate include this in the current impeachment hearing, or are they restricted to the motion passed up from the House? If the latter, I don't see the House wanting to spend the time to impeach for a third time given their other workload.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 12:22 PM

Stilly - but the trump worshipping trailer dwelling heavily armed militia leader interviewed by BBC;
so determined for Texas to secede from America,
would be happiest with trump as ruler of an independent Texas.

Despite trump being a New Yorker...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM

Texas is less likely to be interested in seceding than North Carolina or Alabama. It's too large, too many regions and views of the world.

The last impeachment had two charges; this has one, and it's a doozy, because we all saw it with our own eyes on television. I don't think they need to add anything else to make it stick.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM

And, this impeachment has the most important part - I hope - which is to prevent him from running for president again.

His lawyers, if he can find any to defend his impeachment and civil suits, will be rubbing their hands with glee in anticipation of all those lovely fees they will be earning, especially if the lawsuits drag on and on. The only winners are the lawyers, in financial terms.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:07 PM

.. but what can others in his family be charged with
to nip the trump presidential dynasty in the bud.?

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:17 PM

Stilly congratulations on being first to report the coup against Rosen.
Events about new statehood or succession are impossible to foresee but some things can be expected. For example if statehood is granted to DC at long last, Republicans would see 2 more Democratic senators and get desperate. Texas could come into play and fracture into as many as 5 states. Also thanks for clearing up so much misinformation overall.
So many discussions rise to the level of a sophmore BS session at midnight but sometimes new ideas emerge to a world class level.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

But I imagine that the evidence will be completely irrelevant when it comes to determinghow the senators vote.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:52 PM

Republicans that have even a hint of democracy sound like...
Waaaah but impeechy weechying Trump will divide the country whah

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 06:23 PM

The Senate trial is in grave danger of not convicting him, let alone preventing him from standing again. I want to be wrong about that. If I'm right, there are still options. The worst would be to turn him into a martyr by giving him a protracted show trial. Just consider that there is no charge you could bring that wouldn't be riddled with ifs and buts for his lawyers to jump on. Or you could try to ignore him, sideline him, generally forget him as he wallows in his Florida retreat. From what I'm reading here (always acknowledging that we are a microcosm here on Mudcat), a lot of Americans want retribution, thoroughly understandable. I think that you should maybe resist that impulse. I don't live in America and I don't know American gut sentiment. Just saying what I think. Lastly, the Republican party should work their arses off to find a really good contender for 2024. Just make sure that he or she is a good democrat (small d there) first.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 05:08 AM

Apparently Mr Trump spent his first day at home hard at work. Trying to find lawyers that would take his case(s). And he was at Palm Beach, not Mar-a-Largo where he is not allowed to reside.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:19 AM

The Rosen case is apparently going to dove-tail into the impeachment trial, as part of the evidence against him.

The Trumps apparently bought the estate that is directly north of the Mar A Lago club, plus family have bought a couple of other houses right there. There's also a posh island just north of Miami Beach where a few dozen houses have waterfronts and ring a golf course. That's where Ivanka and her slum-lord husband are settling.

Google Maps gives a look at these places. One wonders if they'll try to blank out these parts of the map to hide from public view.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:24 AM

Islands are useful for exile, or Alamo style last stands...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM

Perhaps the most effective thing wouldn't be court trials, but a thoroughgoing commission of inquiry into the Trump conspiracy to steal the election, including an examination of the basis for the claimed electoral frauds.

The problem would be identifying people to run it who could be trusted across the gulf. Clearly that wouldn't be possible as regards the die-hard Trumpists. But there must be some whose sanity could recover. Perhaps even a fair proportion, in time.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:14 AM

In Rome the Ceasar was the leader but the Senate was the power by Constitution and law. To overthrow the Senate was unthinkable until Julius declared himself a god and ruled over the Senate. However the true power wasn't Ceasar or the Senate but rather it was the mob. Rome is the mob not Centurians.
Senator Byrd and the Roman Republic:
The passing of Senator Robert C. Byrd from the American political scene also marks the departure of a great American character. This fiddle-playing high school graduate who earned a law degree at night (in 1963) and a college degree via correspondence courses (in 1994) regularly quoted the Bible, the classics, and large swaths of memorized poetry on the floor of the Senate was also a historian of the institution he loved most: The United States Senate.

Curiously, his reverence for the Senate and fierce defense of its constitutional role resulted in a most remarkable Government book on ancient Rome: The Senate of the Roman Republic: Addresses on the History of Roman Constitutionalism.
He would have much to say about the mob storming the Senate with murderous intentions based on the orders of a Ceasar.

The rewriting of history is already underway by Republicans.
The storming of the capitol is called by some "the people speak up".

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:59 PM

I have never heard of a trial in which the jurors were also the witness' and victims of the crime they are to deliberate.
WELL ALL THE SENATORS ARE.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:32 PM

You are misrepresenting the whole thing. It is not a criminal trial. There are no jurors. Senators who were "witnesses" (by no means not all of them) are not subject to courtroom-style cross-examination. There is no due process in the sense of the federal justice system. There is no sanction available save the loss of his already-tattered reputation and, possibly, the banning from future office. What they are deliberating is not the accusation of a crime. The vast majority of Senators are "victims" in a peripheral, tangential sense only, in that their institution was attacked, not them personally. He cannot be found guilty of any crime. You went on about the rewriting of history in the post before that one. Perhaps you should reflect that you are perhaps indulging in the same thing.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:34 PM

By no means all of them

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:48 PM

You're wrong, Steve. Donuel is not misrepresenting anything. The senate and the house were in session, they had to be moved out. They were witnesses, and they were far closer to extreme danger than we at first realized. And Senator Byrd would be heartbroken, astonished, appalled, you can add a lot more adjectives.

This is the trial of a criminal. That's why the impeachment. He can be charged with further crimes, and if he thought writing a secret pardon was his way out, a charge and a trial are the way to test it. A pardon assumes there was a crime committed.

He can be found guilty of the act he is charged, he can be prohibited from running for office and he can be stripped of the benefits normally given to a former president. If further charges are brought by the Justice Department, he can be tried in a regular court of law.

There have been many accounts of what happened, and as people are interviewed or debriefed the events of January 6 are all the more clear. The story around Ashli Babbitt, the woman shot trying to invade the Senate lobby gives a view of just how close House and Senate members came to becoming victims. Men were arrested who wanted to assassinate Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence. Trump instigated this. The House and Senate were and still are crime scenes.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:51 PM

Before correcting Steve, I actually came here to comment on the dovetail of the events - the call to the Secretary of State in Georgia is going to serve as an example of how unwilling Trump was to accept the legal results of the election, and how he then turned his supporters loose on the Capitol because of it. He may not be charged with those other crimes, but they all illustrate the one he is charged with.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 12:46 AM

In my attempt to inject wit I am allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions Steve.
I shamelessly write in 'American' about US matters I would not expect to be exported with absolute clarity. Writing is for my own amazement much like when I practice music. Or its like natural hair color, you don't have to like it but its polite to keep it to yourself - unless its an unnatural ORANGE Cheeto or canary YELLOW.

The house managers marched into the Senate Chamber two by two tonight which is a rare event. They presented the article of Trummp's Impeachment for sedition that triggers a trial TBA by the Senate.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 04:10 AM

The UK papers are saying that the chances of Trump being found guilty are very low, because (they imply) Republican Senators are more concerned about losing the support of Trump enthusiasts come their next election than whether Trump actually committed an offence.

Is this the US view as well?