Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:08 PM

That New Yorker article and the video shot are thorough and graphic.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM

Required reading:

Luke Mogelson's article, "The Storm," about the Jan. 6 insurrection, in the Jan. 25 New Yorker.

The political context is probably worse than you imagined.

It's worse than *I* imagined, which is indeed saying something.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:31 PM

Yes, but there is so much cross talk between those multiple threads that it might as well be one. And so, for now, it is.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

I much prefer to have a few different threads to fit in different discussions about distinctly different aspects of a wide ranging topic, rather than trying to squeeze them into one general shouting match.

For example, what to do with Trump isn't the same thing as what to do about what he's done to the country and the world.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM

Raggy, there is ONE Trump thread (though Steve started one to do with Biden that could bleed over onto the topic.) Be happy if we can constrain it to that.

There were some specialized sites set up that tracked Trump's offenses that now have to recalibrate. What the Fuck Just Happened Today rose within days of Trump's inauguration, and now will serve to distill news of the Biden administration and keep us updated on the legal woes of Trump. This means I don't need to go looking for it, and as long as donations keep this site up, I'll be able to save time. He reviews mainstream good-quality news sites and journals.

For example, this is one of the items in the most recent post:

4/ Trump rescinded his administration’s ethics pledge intended to “drain the swamp.” In 2017, Trump signed an executive order that barred political appointees from lobbying the government or working for foreign countries related to their agency for five years. At the time Trump joked that his political appointees would “not be subject to those commitments after noon January 20, 2021.” However, in a late-night executive order issued in the final hours of his presidency, Trump rescinded the executive order. The Trump White House did not offer any justification for the reversal. (Washington Post / Politico / Bloomberg)

Trump extended post-presidency Secret Service protection to 14 members of his family who were not entitled to receive it, at no cost. (Washington Post)

Trump declassified some documents related to the FBI’s Russia investigation. No documents, however, were immediately released. (New York Times)

I learned here about his abuse of the federal Secret Service, extending coverage to many members of his family - that has to go. And the whole ability to lobby now, that will also be quickly dealt with.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM

Steve... there is much speculation on various TV news shows...by various experts and studious amateurs.. about what he can be charged with.

Our constitution doesn't have clear guidance on this situation as no one quite anticipated anything this egregious. There is still no clarity on the matter of *possible* self-pardons and secret pardons because T**** didn't try to pardon himself or his family.. or his accountant.. in the public list. Some think he is waiting to see what federal crimes he might be charged with, then reveal secret pardons and hope that 'his' Supreme Court will back them up.
   I see views that self pardons are against the constitution, (Prof. Lawrence Tribe of Harvard, a famous expert).. all the way to the view that almost anything a president does with pardons is allowed.
No matter how it is eventually resolved, we can be sure he will fight ANY indictments in the courts and hope to drag it out for years.
   No matter what, his life will soon be filled with lawsuits and indictments. The New York Attorney General Letitia James is said to have over 60 subpoenas ready for non-federal crimes.

We shall see..maybe soon.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM

One can but hope. And no fun whatsoever. He is not, in any way, entitled to fun.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

I'd assume that double jeopardy would no more apply in the case of an impeachment than it does in the case of civil prosecutions alongside criminal ones.

Trump could beat the rap for insurrection in the Senate, and still be found guilty in a criminal case, and the other way round. And in either case, he could still be open to related civil charges for harm caused by his actions. And that's aside from the other things that could be brought against him, civil and criminal.

I think he's going to have a pretty busy time.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 06:47 AM

An extract from a 2000 document entitled Whether a Former President May Be Indicted and Tried for the Same Offenses for Which He was Impeached by the House and Acquitted by the Senate

... the Impeachment Judgment Clause, Article I, Section 3, Clause 7 of the Constitution dictates that impeachment must precede indictment. That clause provides:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indict­ment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.

To quote from the document's preamble: The Constitution permits a former President to be indicted and tried for the same offenses for which he was impeached by the House of Representatives and acquitted by the Senate.


It's quite a long read and I don't want to misrepresent it, but I infer from that bit that the Constitution, recognising the limitation of sanction that a Senate conviction holds (that is, that the convicted person can't be punished in any other way than by being removed from office or barred from holding future office), allows that the person convicted by the Senate may still be prosecuted in a criminal trial via judge and jury. That would seem to me to override the federal double jeopardy position. The document refers to a precedent in the case of Spiro Agnew, but I'll let you fish that one out at your leisure. :-)

The double jeopardy rule applies in the case of being put under risk more than once for the same charge. It isn't allowed that you can simply rename the charge to make it look like a different offence, yet rely on the same evidence. It's all a bit labyrinthine and is highly subject to interpretation by senior judiciary, sometimes right up to the Supreme Court. I'm sure that anyone minded to charge a Senate-acquitted Trump with a criminal offence will tread very carefully, but it seems to me that your Constitution would support a move to charge him with the same offence that the Senate acquitted him of.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM

I am not sure how the rules of double jeopardy work in the USA. Trump is up for an impeachment trial by the Senate for inciting insurrection, and it will be difficult, even in the current circumstances, to have a two-thirds majority to convict him.

Does this mean he cannot be tried in a criminal court on the same or similar charges? Makes me wonder if the impeachment might be a mistake.

Mind you, there might be plenty of other things to get him for.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:51 PM

Cross-posted there, Bill, but I think we're on the same page.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM

Well though I don't agree with the restriction imposed on us Brits (not our gig, but hey), I feel that the Americans on Mudcat should be allowed a bit of slack for a short time. Decent Americans have been traumatised for the last four years, and especially for the last two weeks. I sense a massive feeling of emotional release here and I think we should just let that go for a bit. Dammit, I would have hated to have lived under Trump for the last four years. I know personally one person in the US (not a Mudcatter) who has lived in fear of her life because of her anti-Trump sentiment, which she has dared not express out loud. What a bunch of shit that is in a democracy, eh? We can take up the cudgels in a week or two, but let it ride for now, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM

It will settle down Raggy... right now we're overflowing...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM

Could I ask, politely, that American politics are restricted to just one thread as UK politics are ...................


Please!!

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM

King donald the first of Texas...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:45 PM

It seems a lot of heaviy armed Texans are keen to secede from the USA and make trump their leader...???..

.. well at least the trailer dwelling fukwit intervened on BBC news...

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:56 PM

Ol' whatshisname is essentially banned from the GOP which now resides in the Lincoln project. Without PHS reinforcement on twitter, intereest is already waning. As time and indictments go on his base will shrink to previous KKK levels. Vermin will return to the woodwork making it a little more rotten but obvious that it needs repair or replacement.

whatshisname media can be found at Scourges 'R' Us.com

Bannon was pardoned today.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:11 PM

His Florida resort doesn't want him, and he contracted that no one could live there permanently.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM

His company is losing contracts as fast as people can pull the paperwork from the files. The City of New York had some management contracts in the parks (the ice skating rinks, for one) that are being discontinued. And a lot of the banks and big businesses are pulling back from the GOP until things get fixed. Especially the seditionist representatives and senators from the January 6 invasion of the Capitol. Trump may want to settle in at Mar a Lago and eat MacDonald's burgers, burned steaks, and Diet Coke, but I don't think he'll have much peace. I sure hope not.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:31 PM

And let us not forget the financial consequences of his debts. The debt collectors will be at his door and some of his investments are not going so well at present.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 03:13 PM

I am hoping that his tribe of haters and destroyers will flock around him wherever he goes, camp out around Mar-a-Lago, and hinder his life in every possible way in the guise of hero worshipping.

Think of a man with a bag of hot chips in the middle of a huge flock of hungry seagulls.

Then when, at some point, he doesn't deliver according to their expectations the hungry flock might become an angry mob.

As the big orange one said, he needs to be careful what he wished for.

Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 01:59 PM

Let's get him on voter fraud! Then he can go couch-surfing when he gets tossed out of maralago.

Subject: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM

The text from the last Trump thread Trump Actions and Effects, here.


As you sow, so shall you reap. The reaping, for Donald Trump, is about to begin. The bastard will probably spend the afternoon out on the golf course. Let's hope these are his last relaxing hours. I wonder if he's even going to have an attorney at his impeachment trial. And I look forward to his being stripped of all of the usual perks of a former U.S. president.

His presentations of the presidential medals of freedom or honor will always have an asterisk, because they were given to cronies of no particular importance, people who lied for Trump, who didn't give great service to the nation.

Trump identified cracks in our laws and exploited them; now is the time to restore things to rights and fix the ones that were always broken.
I'm going to close this thread, and start a new one to follow Trump's court cases, and perhaps his managing to find a social media platform that won't kick him out - where he can spew more vitriol. If he manages to form a party it can serve as the foundation of a self-identified list of those to prosecute for the assault on the Capitol.

For those who wish to continue tracing the life events of ex-president Donald Trump, this is the one thread that can follow those accounts, indictments, and court cases. We can see if his Florida community manages to kick him out of the club at Mar a Lago, where he isn't supposed to live year-round. If the Southern District of New York charges him for tax fraud, or the State of Georgia charges him with interfering in an election, or the Justice Department charges him with insurrection or sedition, here you go. If you think of some good curses to throw his way, this is the place.