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Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump

Stilly River Sage 20 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM
Mrrzy 20 Jan 21 - 01:59 PM
Helen 20 Jan 21 - 03:13 PM
Helen 20 Jan 21 - 04:31 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM
Rapparee 20 Jan 21 - 06:11 PM
Donuel 20 Jan 21 - 06:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 21 - 07:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM
Raggytash 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM
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Hrothgar 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM
Charmion 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM
Bill D 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM
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Mr Red 24 Jan 21 - 05:08 AM
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Subject: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM

The text from the last Trump thread Trump Actions and Effects, here.


As you sow, so shall you reap. The reaping, for Donald Trump, is about to begin. The bastard will probably spend the afternoon out on the golf course. Let's hope these are his last relaxing hours. I wonder if he's even going to have an attorney at his impeachment trial. And I look forward to his being stripped of all of the usual perks of a former U.S. president.

His presentations of the presidential medals of freedom or honor will always have an asterisk, because they were given to cronies of no particular importance, people who lied for Trump, who didn't give great service to the nation.

Trump identified cracks in our laws and exploited them; now is the time to restore things to rights and fix the ones that were always broken.
I'm going to close this thread, and start a new one to follow Trump's court cases, and perhaps his managing to find a social media platform that won't kick him out - where he can spew more vitriol. If he manages to form a party it can serve as the foundation of a self-identified list of those to prosecute for the assault on the Capitol.


For those who wish to continue tracing the life events of ex-president Donald Trump, this is the one thread that can follow those accounts, indictments, and court cases. We can see if his Florida community manages to kick him out of the club at Mar a Lago, where he isn't supposed to live year-round. If the Southern District of New York charges him for tax fraud, or the State of Georgia charges him with interfering in an election, or the Justice Department charges him with insurrection or sedition, here you go. If you think of some good curses to throw his way, this is the place.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 01:59 PM

Let's get him on voter fraud! Then he can go couch-surfing when he gets tossed out of maralago.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 03:13 PM

I am hoping that his tribe of haters and destroyers will flock around him wherever he goes, camp out around Mar-a-Lago, and hinder his life in every possible way in the guise of hero worshipping.

Think of a man with a bag of hot chips in the middle of a huge flock of hungry seagulls.

Then when, at some point, he doesn't deliver according to their expectations the hungry flock might become an angry mob.

As the big orange one said, he needs to be careful what he wished for.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:31 PM

And let us not forget the financial consequences of his debts. The debt collectors will be at his door and some of his investments are not going so well at present.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 05:55 PM

His company is losing contracts as fast as people can pull the paperwork from the files. The City of New York had some management contracts in the parks (the ice skating rinks, for one) that are being discontinued. And a lot of the banks and big businesses are pulling back from the GOP until things get fixed. Especially the seditionist representatives and senators from the January 6 invasion of the Capitol. Trump may want to settle in at Mar a Lago and eat MacDonald's burgers, burned steaks, and Diet Coke, but I don't think he'll have much peace. I sure hope not.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:11 PM

His Florida resort doesn't want him, and he contracted that no one could live there permanently.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:56 PM

Ol' whatshisname is essentially banned from the GOP which now resides in the Lincoln project. Without PHS reinforcement on twitter, intereest is already waning. As time and indictments go on his base will shrink to previous KKK levels. Vermin will return to the woodwork making it a little more rotten but obvious that it needs repair or replacement.

whatshisname media can be found at Scourges 'R' Us.com

Bannon was pardoned today.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:45 PM

It seems a lot of heaviy armed Texans are keen to secede from the USA and make trump their leader...???..

.. well at least the trailer dwelling fukwit intervened on BBC news...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:49 PM

King donald the first of Texas...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:15 PM

Could I ask, politely, that American politics are restricted to just one thread as UK politics are ...................


Please!!


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:43 PM

It will settle down Raggy... right now we're overflowing...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:49 PM

Well though I don't agree with the restriction imposed on us Brits (not our gig, but hey), I feel that the Americans on Mudcat should be allowed a bit of slack for a short time. Decent Americans have been traumatised for the last four years, and especially for the last two weeks. I sense a massive feeling of emotional release here and I think we should just let that go for a bit. Dammit, I would have hated to have lived under Trump for the last four years. I know personally one person in the US (not a Mudcatter) who has lived in fear of her life because of her anti-Trump sentiment, which she has dared not express out loud. What a bunch of shit that is in a democracy, eh? We can take up the cudgels in a week or two, but let it ride for now, I reckon.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:51 PM

Cross-posted there, Bill, but I think we're on the same page.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 05:54 AM

I am not sure how the rules of double jeopardy work in the USA. Trump is up for an impeachment trial by the Senate for inciting insurrection, and it will be difficult, even in the current circumstances, to have a two-thirds majority to convict him.

Does this mean he cannot be tried in a criminal court on the same or similar charges? Makes me wonder if the impeachment might be a mistake.

Mind you, there might be plenty of other things to get him for.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 06:47 AM

An extract from a 2000 document entitled Whether a Former President May Be Indicted and Tried for the Same Offenses for Which He was Impeached by the House and Acquitted by the Senate

... the Impeachment Judgment Clause, Article I, Section 3, Clause 7 of the Constitution dictates that impeachment must precede indictment. That clause provides:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust, or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indict­ment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.


To quote from the document's preamble: The Constitution permits a former President to be indicted and tried for the same offenses for which he was impeached by the House of Representatives and acquitted by the Senate.


It's quite a long read and I don't want to misrepresent it, but I infer from that bit that the Constitution, recognising the limitation of sanction that a Senate conviction holds (that is, that the convicted person can't be punished in any other way than by being removed from office or barred from holding future office), allows that the person convicted by the Senate may still be prosecuted in a criminal trial via judge and jury. That would seem to me to override the federal double jeopardy position. The document refers to a precedent in the case of Spiro Agnew, but I'll let you fish that one out at your leisure. :-)

The double jeopardy rule applies in the case of being put under risk more than once for the same charge. It isn't allowed that you can simply rename the charge to make it look like a different offence, yet rely on the same evidence. It's all a bit labyrinthine and is highly subject to interpretation by senior judiciary, sometimes right up to the Supreme Court. I'm sure that anyone minded to charge a Senate-acquitted Trump with a criminal offence will tread very carefully, but it seems to me that your Constitution would support a move to charge him with the same offence that the Senate acquitted him of.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

I'd assume that double jeopardy would no more apply in the case of an impeachment than it does in the case of civil prosecutions alongside criminal ones.

Trump could beat the rap for insurrection in the Senate, and still be found guilty in a criminal case, and the other way round. And in either case, he could still be open to related civil charges for harm caused by his actions. And that's aside from the other things that could be brought against him, civil and criminal.

I think he's going to have a pretty busy time.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:39 AM

One can but hope. And no fun whatsoever. He is not, in any way, entitled to fun.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM

Steve... there is much speculation on various TV news shows...by various experts and studious amateurs.. about what he can be charged with.

Our constitution doesn't have clear guidance on this situation as no one quite anticipated anything this egregious. There is still no clarity on the matter of *possible* self-pardons and secret pardons because T**** didn't try to pardon himself or his family.. or his accountant.. in the public list. Some think he is waiting to see what federal crimes he might be charged with, then reveal secret pardons and hope that 'his' Supreme Court will back them up.
   I see views that self pardons are against the constitution, (Prof. Lawrence Tribe of Harvard, a famous expert).. all the way to the view that almost anything a president does with pardons is allowed.
No matter how it is eventually resolved, we can be sure he will fight ANY indictments in the courts and hope to drag it out for years.
   No matter what, his life will soon be filled with lawsuits and indictments. The New York Attorney General Letitia James is said to have over 60 subpoenas ready for non-federal crimes.

We shall see..maybe soon.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM

Raggy, there is ONE Trump thread (though Steve started one to do with Biden that could bleed over onto the topic.) Be happy if we can constrain it to that.

There were some specialized sites set up that tracked Trump's offenses that now have to recalibrate. What the Fuck Just Happened Today rose within days of Trump's inauguration, and now will serve to distill news of the Biden administration and keep us updated on the legal woes of Trump. This means I don't need to go looking for it, and as long as donations keep this site up, I'll be able to save time. He reviews mainstream good-quality news sites and journals.

For example, this is one of the items in the most recent post:

    4/ Trump rescinded his administration’s ethics pledge intended to “drain the swamp.” In 2017, Trump signed an executive order that barred political appointees from lobbying the government or working for foreign countries related to their agency for five years. At the time Trump joked that his political appointees would “not be subject to those commitments after noon January 20, 2021.” However, in a late-night executive order issued in the final hours of his presidency, Trump rescinded the executive order. The Trump White House did not offer any justification for the reversal. (Washington Post / Politico / Bloomberg)

    Trump extended post-presidency Secret Service protection to 14 members of his family who were not entitled to receive it, at no cost. (Washington Post)

    Trump declassified some documents related to the FBI’s Russia investigation. No documents, however, were immediately released. (New York Times)


I learned here about his abuse of the federal Secret Service, extending coverage to many members of his family - that has to go. And the whole ability to lobby now, that will also be quickly dealt with.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

I much prefer to have a few different threads to fit in different discussions about distinctly different aspects of a wide ranging topic, rather than trying to squeeze them into one general shouting match.

For example, what to do with Trump isn't the same thing as what to do about what he's done to the country and the world.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 12:31 PM

Yes, but there is so much cross talk between those multiple threads that it might as well be one. And so, for now, it is.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 03:11 PM

Required reading:

Luke Mogelson's article, "The Storm," about the Jan. 6 insurrection, in the Jan. 25 New Yorker.

The political context is probably worse than you imagined.

It's worse than *I* imagined, which is indeed saying something.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jan 21 - 08:08 PM

That New Yorker article and the video shot are thorough and graphic.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

The prosecution of Grump is different than the prosecution of enablers be they individuals or corporations.

Fox News just yesterday broadcast that " Democrats intend to exterminate all Republicans "   the remaining sponsors like Gold, pilows and insurance are not enough to feed the beast but Rupurt made a fortune with sensationalism to begin. It could be a sign of his end.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:49 AM

I would like to see him reduced from juggernaut...

...to just naught.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM

From the New York Times, there are a lot more bad people out in circulation now that Trump has granted them clemency. For Prosecutors, Trump’s Clemency Decisions Were a ‘Kick in the Teeth’

He's clearly identifying with part of his "base" when he sees people just like him, but they got caught.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:27 AM

Why don't we construct a Trump song much like a Roman "curse":

I once worked on an archaeological dig where they found 50 lead "curses" down the well of a Roman Temple (to Cernunnos), thus doubling the total UK find at the time. I did ask and got a general answer along the lines they would be inscribed with: "The person who stole my chicken, may his hens never lay, may his cow run dry, may his wheat fester in the ear, may his.........."
It reminded me of the Irish song - Nell Flaherty's Drake - a tour de force of curses.

AND ....... Pfr .............

 'King donald the first of Texas... - apostrophes pleas, Pfr, apostrophes! a typo, but I let it stand


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:30 AM

Here is a major piece of the prosecution's case if Trump is tried for trying to overthrow Georgia's election. This is also an impeachable offense, but the one that got him impeached was fomenting anger and causing the assault on the Capitol.

And then there are his civil cases. His family is probably busy right now burying as much of the family money as possible to protect it from seizure by banks and to avoid paying attorney's fees.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:31 AM

Oh, and Donald is from Queens, New York, NOT from Texas.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

This is also an impeachable offense

Again, I do not know enough about the American system. Could the Senate include this in the current impeachment hearing, or are they restricted to the motion passed up from the House? If the latter, I don't see the House wanting to spend the time to impeach for a third time given their other workload.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 12:22 PM

Stilly - but the trump worshipping trailer dwelling heavily armed militia leader interviewed by BBC;
so determined for Texas to secede from America,
would be happiest with trump as ruler of an independent Texas.

Despite trump being a New Yorker...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM

Texas is less likely to be interested in seceding than North Carolina or Alabama. It's too large, too many regions and views of the world.

The last impeachment had two charges; this has one, and it's a doozy, because we all saw it with our own eyes on television. I don't think they need to add anything else to make it stick.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM

And, this impeachment has the most important part - I hope - which is to prevent him from running for president again.

His lawyers, if he can find any to defend his impeachment and civil suits, will be rubbing their hands with glee in anticipation of all those lovely fees they will be earning, especially if the lawsuits drag on and on. The only winners are the lawyers, in financial terms.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 03:07 PM

.. but what can others in his family be charged with
to nip the trump presidential dynasty in the bud.?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:17 PM

Stilly congratulations on being first to report the coup against Rosen.
Events about new statehood or succession are impossible to foresee but some things can be expected. For example if statehood is granted to DC at long last, Republicans would see 2 more Democratic senators and get desperate. Texas could come into play and fracture into as many as 5 states. Also thanks for clearing up so much misinformation overall.
So many discussions rise to the level of a sophmore BS session at midnight but sometimes new ideas emerge to a world class level.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

But I imagine that the evidence will be completely irrelevant when it comes to determinghow the senators vote.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:52 PM

Republicans that have even a hint of democracy sound like...
Waaaah but impeechy weechying Trump will divide the country whah


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 06:23 PM

The Senate trial is in grave danger of not convicting him, let alone preventing him from standing again. I want to be wrong about that. If I'm right, there are still options. The worst would be to turn him into a martyr by giving him a protracted show trial. Just consider that there is no charge you could bring that wouldn't be riddled with ifs and buts for his lawyers to jump on. Or you could try to ignore him, sideline him, generally forget him as he wallows in his Florida retreat. From what I'm reading here (always acknowledging that we are a microcosm here on Mudcat), a lot of Americans want retribution, thoroughly understandable. I think that you should maybe resist that impulse. I don't live in America and I don't know American gut sentiment. Just saying what I think. Lastly, the Republican party should work their arses off to find a really good contender for 2024. Just make sure that he or she is a good democrat (small d there) first.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 05:08 AM

Apparently Mr Trump spent his first day at home hard at work. Trying to find lawyers that would take his case(s). And he was at Palm Beach, not Mar-a-Largo where he is not allowed to reside.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:19 AM

The Rosen case is apparently going to dove-tail into the impeachment trial, as part of the evidence against him.

The Trumps apparently bought the estate that is directly north of the Mar A Lago club, plus family have bought a couple of other houses right there. There's also a posh island just north of Miami Beach where a few dozen houses have waterfronts and ring a golf course. That's where Ivanka and her slum-lord husband are settling.

Google Maps gives a look at these places. One wonders if they'll try to blank out these parts of the map to hide from public view.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 11:24 AM

Islands are useful for exile, or Alamo style last stands...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:01 AM

Perhaps the most effective thing wouldn't be court trials, but a thoroughgoing commission of inquiry into the Trump conspiracy to steal the election, including an examination of the basis for the claimed electoral frauds.

The problem would be identifying people to run it who could be trusted across the gulf. Clearly that wouldn't be possible as regards the die-hard Trumpists. But there must be some whose sanity could recover. Perhaps even a fair proportion, in time.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:14 AM

In Rome the Ceasar was the leader but the Senate was the power by Constitution and law. To overthrow the Senate was unthinkable until Julius declared himself a god and ruled over the Senate. However the true power wasn't Ceasar or the Senate but rather it was the mob. Rome is the mob not Centurians.
Senator Byrd and the Roman Republic:
The passing of Senator Robert C. Byrd from the American political scene also marks the departure of a great American character. This fiddle-playing high school graduate who earned a law degree at night (in 1963) and a college degree via correspondence courses (in 1994) regularly quoted the Bible, the classics, and large swaths of memorized poetry on the floor of the Senate was also a historian of the institution he loved most: The United States Senate.

Curiously, his reverence for the Senate and fierce defense of its constitutional role resulted in a most remarkable Government book on ancient Rome: The Senate of the Roman Republic: Addresses on the History of Roman Constitutionalism.
He would have much to say about the mob storming the Senate with murderous intentions based on the orders of a Ceasar.

The rewriting of history is already underway by Republicans.
The storming of the capitol is called by some "the people speak up".


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 06:59 PM

I have never heard of a trial in which the jurors were also the witness' and victims of the crime they are to deliberate.
WELL ALL THE SENATORS ARE.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:32 PM

You are misrepresenting the whole thing. It is not a criminal trial. There are no jurors. Senators who were "witnesses" (by no means not all of them) are not subject to courtroom-style cross-examination. There is no due process in the sense of the federal justice system. There is no sanction available save the loss of his already-tattered reputation and, possibly, the banning from future office. What they are deliberating is not the accusation of a crime. The vast majority of Senators are "victims" in a peripheral, tangential sense only, in that their institution was attacked, not them personally. He cannot be found guilty of any crime. You went on about the rewriting of history in the post before that one. Perhaps you should reflect that you are perhaps indulging in the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 07:34 PM

By no means all of them


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:48 PM

You're wrong, Steve. Donuel is not misrepresenting anything. The senate and the house were in session, they had to be moved out. They were witnesses, and they were far closer to extreme danger than we at first realized. And Senator Byrd would be heartbroken, astonished, appalled, you can add a lot more adjectives.

This is the trial of a criminal. That's why the impeachment. He can be charged with further crimes, and if he thought writing a secret pardon was his way out, a charge and a trial are the way to test it. A pardon assumes there was a crime committed.

He can be found guilty of the act he is charged, he can be prohibited from running for office and he can be stripped of the benefits normally given to a former president. If further charges are brought by the Justice Department, he can be tried in a regular court of law.

There have been many accounts of what happened, and as people are interviewed or debriefed the events of January 6 are all the more clear. The story around Ashli Babbitt, the woman shot trying to invade the Senate lobby gives a view of just how close House and Senate members came to becoming victims. Men were arrested who wanted to assassinate Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence. Trump instigated this. The House and Senate were and still are crime scenes.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 10:51 PM

Before correcting Steve, I actually came here to comment on the dovetail of the events - the call to the Secretary of State in Georgia is going to serve as an example of how unwilling Trump was to accept the legal results of the election, and how he then turned his supporters loose on the Capitol because of it. He may not be charged with those other crimes, but they all illustrate the one he is charged with.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 12:46 AM

In my attempt to inject wit I am allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions Steve.
I shamelessly write in 'American' about US matters I would not expect to be exported with absolute clarity. Writing is for my own amazement much like when I practice music. Or its like natural hair color, you don't have to like it but its polite to keep it to yourself - unless its an unnatural ORANGE Cheeto or canary YELLOW.

The house managers marched into the Senate Chamber two by two tonight which is a rare event. They presented the article of Trummp's Impeachment for sedition that triggers a trial TBA by the Senate.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 04:10 AM

The UK papers are saying that the chances of Trump being found guilty are very low, because (they imply) Republican Senators are more concerned about losing the support of Trump enthusiasts come their next election than whether Trump actually committed an offence.

Is this the US view as well?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 05:07 AM

"This is the trial of a criminal."

This little sentence completely undermines your case. If a UK newspaper printed that about a public figure without a criminal record yet to be brought to court it would compromise the process to such an extent that the accused person would quite rightly be able to claim that a fair trial was now impossible. In addition, as Trump can't be punished (by fine or imprisonment) even if convicted by the Senate, the process can't be regarded as in any way equivalent to due process in federal law. You are making the mistake of equating terms used in federal law with what may happen in the Senate: there will be no vetted or sworn-in jury; you are using terms such as "crime" and "convicted" in a loose, generic sense when, in law, you would rightly be pulled up for so doing (it's fine to say "it would be a crime to overcook this beautiful piece of fish" because we'd all know what you meant, whereas in Trump's case you are tendentiously prejudging the issue before he's been tried). As for witnesses, the Senate doesn't even have to call any (they didn't last time), and likely won't do so, as the last thing the Democratic Party wants is for Biden to have to endure the distraction of a protracted process. If you did that in federal law you would be accused of setting up a kangaroo court; as Trump can't be punished by a Senate trial, the process can't be regarded as being in any way equivalent. Even the term "trial" here is not equivalent to what happens in due legal process, much as you would like it to be. He can be tried in the ordinary courts later. One step at a time. It's all in your constitution.

One more point about witnesses and victims. Trump's alleged crime is not that he stormed the Senate. He is accused of whipping up a mob in a speech. How many Senators were in that crowd? I'm afraid that "I saw it on the telly" doesn't cut it. Camera angles, editing, etc... Senators who were attacked physically, or intimidated by a mob, are victims of a different crime yet to to be called up. You can perhaps see how this might go if loose interpretations and loose terminology are used. He will have a legal team who'll jump all over you.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 05:55 AM

Incidentally again, there is no jury and there will likely be no called witnesses. It is not true to say that he misrepresented nothing. At the very least, the suggestion that Senators will form some kind of "jury" is tendentiously wide of the mark, and is guilty of that loose terminology I mentioned. Like most decent people, I should like to see Trump rot in jail. But I'm not going to wrap up that aspiration in the sort of wishful thinking that would be in danger of trumping your justice system. As Judge Webster Thayer might have said about Sacco and Vanzetti, they're reds and what more do you need...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:31 AM

"I am allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions."

As indeed are we all. But by our fruits shall others know us, eh?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM

Keep yer paws off my fruits pal. In so many ways you are like the republicans over here Steve.
Republicans used to brag they were staunch and firm. Then they got stauncher and evolved into lonely empty conspiracy theorists who find a home with like minded conspiracists. Now they seek retribution against truth tellers. They are on the edge of a ledge screaming "Believe the lie or die".
To continue your campaign to criticise critical thinkers by being critical of individuals who think for themslves makes you a dead ender. You want things like not being alone or being loved that are not my priorities here, so do things that get what you want. Hate campaigns against others won't get you there. You could stick to recipes or change. Seeing that you have not changed in 20 years and your favorite subject is yourself say something, I'm giving up on you. Instead of a friend in discussion you are now just a resulting example of your own making.
Likewise;
Rudy Gulliani is now facing a 1.3 Billion dollar lawsuit for lieing about the Dominion voting machine corporation.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM

Senator Leahy will preside over the trial WHICH WILL HAVE WITNESS'"
(please disregard the guesser and chief)
Supream court Chief Justice Roberts will not preside over the trial with his reasons being his own. We are left to speculate fear could be part of the equation.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 04:50 PM

Do calm down.

Not once have I asserted that no witnesses will be called. I'm saying that witnesses do not HAVE to be called. That, among other aspects, distinguishes a Senate trial from a trial in an ordinary court. In order for the proceedings to be expedited in short order, I'm suggesting (never guessing) that witnesses will likely not be called. No more than that.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:07 PM

Dontrumpuel:

Once again you are filling the threadlines with surmise and supposition and warning us in advance we are supposed to tolerate it because you are allowed tospeak in abbreviated and clever ways not found in essays or newspaper descriptions.

Your previous allustion to Roman history was a complete mishmash of Roman practice and history. Robert Byrd would be aghast. You continue to shadow the character of the Former Occupant in that you can say anything absolutely anything with no sense of whether it is true or false. There is a technical term for this, often used on the now former President. It is based on the fact that he didn't respect the truth enough to even reliably lie. You seem to be too clever to open a book or click on Wikipedia.

The problem with this is that when you get easy facts wrong it means you can get more extended facts wrong and no one can trust that you will do the work to get anything right. And then when you try to use logic on these 'alternative facts' you not only get wrong conclusions on the premise of GIGO, but you can't be relied on to do the logic.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 06:45 PM

Steve, I do find it annoying that you, in the UK, continue to pontificate about the US House and Senate and ex-president when you weren't sitting here watching the entire thing unfold on television and haven't been reading the new accounts of the atrocities committed as they come forward every day. You're reading it summarized later in newspapers by pundits.

The facts are that Trump is a criminal. And if he wrote a private pardon to reveal later in hopes of avoiding being found guilty, that proves it (and the Supreme Court will eventually have to sort it out). And I'm willing to bet he did just such a thing to pull out later if he thinks he can benefit from it. He's a criminal whose attorneys have gotten him off so far, by running out the clock. You can use "con artist" or "Grifter" or "alleged criminal" if you want to, to stay safe as far as libel laws are concerned, but for millions of Americans, Trump is out and out a criminal, and your lectures about the topic aren't changing minds.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 07:28 PM

I'm afraid that "I saw it on the telly" doesn't cut it. Camera angles, editing, etc....

In this case I think it does potentially cut it, Steve. The accusation is that he stirred up and sought to enrage the crowd and sent it up to the Capital, falsely promising to accompany it.. The television record of his speech on January 6th is direct evidence of what he did on that day. Not edited extracts, the entire speech.

Clearly the legal status of the Senate hearing isn't that of a criminal court, and the outcome does not allow for anything equivalent to the penalties available in a criminal court - though that is purely contingent. It could easily have been possible and perfectly legal for such penalties to be within the power of the Senate. However I think it is correct to use the term "trial", without implying that the word has precisely the same meaning as in the case of a conventional criminal trial.

However the offence of insurrection, including directly inciting insurrection is very definitely a criminal act, subject to further trial in a criminal court, which could potentially impose very severe penalties (I would suspect that theoretically insurrection couldx in the US be subject to capital punishment.) I would doubt if the decision of the Senate in this matter either way would be seen in such a court as relevant to its finding.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 08:07 PM

Maggie, of course we saw the whole thing on telly. Perhaps you think we're still in the Dark Ages, getting snippets fed to us in yesterday's papers. We have a choice of rolling 24-hour news channels and we see exactly what you see. I can find out about the ins and outs of your constitution just as easily as you can and it has been a matter of some interest to me. To assume that Brits automatically cannot comprehend what we see happening on the telly (which is only what you see too - remind me how far from Washington you live...) is, well... And there's ever such a slight but detectable undercurrent in your post that we Brits aren't quite as entitled to speak as freely about this as you are. And your constant insistence that Trump is a criminal is very puzzling to me. If you said that about anyone in this country charged with a serious crime before he'd even been tried, you would seriously jeopardise his being brought to trial at all. It is an untenable position. What he is accused of is a heinous crime. The Senate cannot bring about a CRIMINAL conviction (which you know already) and he cannot be sanctioned for a crime until he is found guilty in a ordinary court. For chrissake, the whole of our democracy is predicated on the rule of law. No short cuts, no what more do you need, no kangaroo courts, no lynchings. We are all very angry with Trump (though you have suffered more, obviously); he is not a uniquely-American problem. Why, he's given succour not only to the bloody idiot, a Trump-lite if ever there was one, who runs this country and who has arguably done us much more damage than Trump has done to the US, but also to the menace in the Kremlin. Everybody's angry. He's turned the world upside down. But we have to be patient. You are not showing that right now, which is going to be counterproductive, and if you think that we Brits "don't get it" as much as you Americans, then consider the unadorned input of at least one of your fellow countrymen in this and related threads...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:00 PM

So now 45 Republican Senators have tried to shoot down the impeachment trial. So much for convicting him in the Senate. I hope you've got enough wise people to decide the next step, hopefully a decision uninformed by some of the anger we've seen here. You need to unite your country, remember?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:26 PM

Further to that, the reason given by the Republicans is that, as one Senator commented, "My vote today to dismiss the article of impeachment is based on the fact that impeachment was designed to remove an officeholder from public office," Senator Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia said in a statement released after the vote. "The Constitution does not give Congress the power to impeach a private citizen."

If that's the widely-held view among the 45, with only five demurring (way short of seventeen, even if those five were all going to vote with the Democratic Party), the impeachment is now dead in the water. I wonder whether the Democratic Party Senators might consider that it's best to accept that, butt out and save face. After all, that could be better than being trashed in a Senate trial that many would now see as being pointlessly symbolic only, and a distraction from the rebuilding job that Joe Biden is trying to do. That seems quite important to me, and I didn't read it on the back of a fag packet...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:56 PM

Trmp has had a 'gift' for want of a better word, of exploring the edges, boundries, and corners of not just proper behavior but legal behavior including precedent.

Well before his political career he was in money difficulties; he supposedly sued Deutsche Bank for its part in the financial crisis which made it (supposedly) impossible for him to pay back.....Deutsche Bank. This is cutting edge legal maneuvering. From the guy who cut his legal teeth at the side of Roy Cohn.

For a guy who spent years in New York real estate finagling the system, and he actually borrowed money from one part of Deutsche Bank to pay back the other loans he couldn't otherwise pay*, finagling Washington politics is more fun with lower risks.

I can see Donald telling Rudy Giuliani: "You're no Roy Cohn!"

*Chaos & Corruption- Trump's Secrets at Deutsche Bank


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM

Good to hear that pointed out. We know that he an extremely bad man who has done a lot of harm. But I've always thought that it's a severe mistake to also regard him as an idiot, and I've said that several times here. He isn't, and maybe that should be at least part of the considerations as to how we should now treat him. He is fully capable of continuing to cause mayhem, and what he needs most of all is to stay in the public eye for as long as he can.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 06:02 AM

Surely there is a basic flaw in the argument that Trump cannot be impeached because he is no longer in office.

He has already been impeached a few days ago, while he was still president. What the Senate is doing is not to impeach him, but to determine whether that should take effect, and what that effect should be. That is a different thing.

Of course arguments about what is right or wrong, or what happened, are completely irrelevant. Nor does anyone expect them to feel bound by the solemn oath they have taken - "“I solemnly swear (or affirm) that in all things appertaining to the trial of ____, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God.” Those voting to acquit will be guided by politics, and personal advantage. "Impartial justice" has nothing to do with it.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 06:40 AM

It's important to remember that the impeachment process, through to trial, has nothing to do with the US justice system. The process itself is purely political (though the sentiments driving it, such as outrage, anger and a sense of injustice, and that the man would be a danger if he ever got into office again) are clearly not, for many of his opponents. That's why a cool head is needed. Prematurely branding him outloud a criminal is not keeping a cool head. Though in theory an acquittal by the Senate (almost inevitable) wouldn't affect process in a later criminal trial, as you said yesterday, I predict that millions of his supporters would be outraged to see things move on from an acquittal here to a criminal court case, and even more outraged to see him thrown in jail. The story so far is that, yes, he has been impeached, but he has not been tried by the Senate. I think I the wisest move would be to stop right here. He will not be found guilty - for a second time in a year - and that will translate into egg on a lot of Democrat faces if Trump has anything to do with it. Here's a man who has manoeuvred himself into a populist position in which he has shown that he can get away with almost anything. Treat him like an idiot at your peril.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 06:50 AM

Leader of the terrorist organization The American Taliban (Trumpists) Donal J Trump has inspired the mob to kill, plunder and deficate in the Capitol and his Senators wants us to turn the page, move on and not be so silly and vindictive.

Well I saw the thing comin' from the white house
It had the one long horn, and two big mouths
I commenced to shakin' and I said "Ooh-eee"
It looks like a purple people eater to me
It was a one-eyed, two mouthed, lieing' purple people eater
(One-eyed, two mouthed, lyin' purple people eater)
A one-eyed, two mouthed, lyin' purple people eater
Sure looks strange to me (two mouths?)
Well he came down to earth and lived in a golf course
I said Mr. Purple People Eater, don't eat me
I heard him say in a voice so gruff
"I wouldn't eat you 'cause you're for Trump"
It was a one-eyed, two-mouthed, lieing purple people eater
One-eyed, two-mouthed' lieing purple people eater
One-eyed, two mouthed, lieing purple people eater
Sure looks strange to me (two mouths?)
Outta one side yelling hang Mike Pense
Outta th'other kill Pelosi and Chuck
FUCK
It was a one-eyed, two mouthed, lieing' purple...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 07:04 AM

As I said, a cool head is needed.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM

Its important to remember that Steve has a grip on one chestnut and has repeated it twenty times. Its sumpthin a grandpa would do.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 07:20 AM

"I'm giving up on you" is what you said 24 hours ago (to the minute) and I welcomed it. More fake news, unfortunately. A little like the "twenty times" in that post.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 07:27 AM

Its a song not a philosophy.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 08:32 AM

Those who back Trump are going to be outraged whatever happens. I don't think there is much profit in trying to pacify them.

Those kind of considerations might affect how the Attorney General determines whether to prosecute, but I can't see tgem prefenting other court challenges for Trump arising from Jan 6th.

So far as the questiin of constitutionality is concerned I'd have thought the only body with any authority to decide is not the Senate but the Supreme Court. The Senate doesn't have any authority to determine that kind of thing, only its own procedures within the liits of what the Constitution provides. . know the court shies away from any involvement with the matter of impeachment, as being a purely political matter, but a question of constitutionality should never be seen as a purely political matter.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 08:40 AM

On the lighter side I would like to add one more preposterous punishment for Trump AKA "Killem With Kindness";
At the next Acadamy Awards Ceremony, Award an Honorary Oscar to Donald J Trump for the most convincing fake Reality Show on Earth.
THEN, beginning with Steven Spielburg, beat Donald J Trump to death with his own Oscar. Trump's famous last words will be "Et tu Sylvester Stallone, Stormy danials, lady ga,,, ug ow,___ ?".


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM

But you can't bend the rules, Kevin. As I said, the sentiments behind the impeachment are complex, but the process itself has to be purely political. The constitutional position is that impeachment is there to serve the country's best interests (to remove a bad person from office, and, optionally, to bar them from future office), not to punish a miscreant. Maybe that's what we both mean, I dunno. And I wouldn't have though that the Supreme Court would be in at the beginning of a future criminal trial. At the end maybe, once a verdict has been reached and after a protracted period of wrangling...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:33 AM

American justice procedures have got far too complicated
since the good old tar, feather, and rope, days of the wild west..

.. but at least one tradition still survives, corrupt politician trump has been run out of town...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:41 AM

No question of bending the rules here, Steve. The matter of determining whether an impeachment process can be concluded after the person who has been impeached has left office is a purely constitutional matter, which should have nothing to do with the Senate. It's quite distinct from the task of whether the impeachment should be conformed or not, which is purely a matter for the Senate, and has nothing to do with the Supreme Court. And, as you say, no punishment is involved. That is what criminal courts are for.

Interestingly, so far as I am aware, there is no mechanism for dealing with the problem if the Supreme Court does act improperly or even unconstitutionally. (I think if it declined to rule on the constitutionality of impeaching a dead parrot, so to speak, I think it would be failing in its duty.)

But for the Senate to decide a constitutional matter like this strikes me as a clear breach of the principle of the separation of powers.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 11:06 AM

Evidence:
"All hell is going to break loose tommorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tommorrow. It's gonna be moving. Its gonna be quick." Jan 5 Steve Bannon pod cast.

"This is not a day for fantasy, this is a day for maniacalfocus. Focus, Focus Focus. We're coming in right over the target, okay? Exactly--this is the point of ATTACK w've always wanted."
Jan. 6 Steve Bannon Podcast.

source: "WAR ROOM" Podcast


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 05:39 PM

The facial Identificaton software the FBI uses is called Clear View.
-not to be confused with clearview cable, a monopolized right wing local news servive which is part of the Sinclair Group.-

The ID software is excellent in identifying white faces but drops to half as effective when deaing with Blacks. It is working quite well with the capitol terrorists.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Feb 21 - 03:16 PM

I thought the idea of having a separate thread for what I'd call: "Trump legal fallout" was a good one.
Comes now that Georgia prosecutors open criminal investigation of trump phone call.
And Trump filed against Georgia's officials before the end of 2020.

Someone should come up with a matrix as these things develop:

Federal
State
Local

by filing time; location; subject matter.

Maybe one of those walls full of dry-erase boards with photos and yarn linkages stretched out all serial-killer like!


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 10 Feb 21 - 04:15 PM

Yes, robomatic, for a serial offender! I think it will become very complicated to follow all the stories.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 06:55 PM

Apparently they *are* after him for voter fraud, not for pretending to live in Fla but for what he tried in Georgia.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 09:10 PM

New York State also has him in their sights.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Feb 21 - 04:52 AM

What benefits do ex-presidents normally get?
I wonder how the insurrection would have gone if Trump had actually gone down and led the lads in.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Feb 21 - 05:00 AM

Isn't the impeachment trial a bit like a criminal trial where half the jury are members of the accused's family?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 08:33 AM

Listening to the news today the basis of the Republicans defence if the turnip is acquitted by the Senate, then that legitimises hate speech and incitement to violence, and that worries me that white supremacists will see this as legitimising opening their vile mouths.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:11 AM

You are right, SPB, but I don't see anything smooth path out out this. We may well get the result that the majority of Senators agree Trump did incite the riot, but that the result still falls short of the 67. How you go forward when most lawmakers agree a major crime has taken place but they are powerless to do anything is not clear.

The constitution would be effectively broken: indictment does not work. Invoking the 14th amendment is a problem as well -in the longer term I can see it becoming a tool for any party to disqualify anyone they do not agree with if it is used.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM

“Pooh”, said Piglet, “If they don’t find him guilty, does that mean he’s innocent?”

“No Piglet”, said Pooh, “It means they’re all guilty.”.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM

The lawmakers are not the nuts and bolts of the justice system. Due process in the criminal justice system doesn't apply to what's happening here. Whether this attempt in Congress fails or not, Trump could be charged with criminal offences and brought to the normal courts. I don't see much of a constitutional crisis. I can see a lot of wrangling over what to do next. Good luck with that, yanks.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:14 AM

The crisis is the example he set by inciting a coup. As the pundits say, if he isn't found guilty, if he gets away with it, that riot will be considered a training session for future presidents.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:31 AM

Well that should help to inform your next move. This move can do little except for banning him from a future presidency, and even that looks unlikely.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:34 AM

Don't be so fast. New information came out last night that has a lot of people thinking minds will be changed. Phone conversations with Trump during the event that people are talking about now, after yesterday's session ended. And one of the people revealing one of those calls is a GOP congressmember from my home state. Good for her! Trump knew Pence was in danger and did nothing. That treatment of the VP is what may rile enough GOP senators to decide to find him guilty.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald T
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:55 AM

"That treatment of the VP is what may rile enough GOP senators to decide to find him guilty."

You'd think so - but not with this pretty despicable bunch.

Aside from this lot this senate does appear to pretty shambolic and unwieldy. You decide to have a witness, you ask them to come in and do their witnessing, and the lawyers for both sides question them. Simple. They could have done that today.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 12:36 PM

Human rights are said to be or said to ought to be inalienable. The problem is they are also contradictory, eg the right to go about one's daily life without being murdered against the fight to freedom of expression which could be said to include incitement to take another person's life.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:07 PM

Purely from what I've heard today, I would love Joe Neguse to be your next President.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 09:03 PM

There's something going on with Trump and pressuring the Georgia Sec of State to find enough votes to overturn Biden's win.

The result today - acquittal - was expected. But McConnell reinforces his reputation as a worm by voting for acquittal, and THEN talking about Trump having done what he was accused of doing - incitement. But that's not prosecutable. I think Trump's dance card for the foreseeable future is full, though.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 09:10 PM

You yanks had better focus. His talk is all about coming back.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 12:13 AM

There are other parts of the Constitution to consider. Robert Reich, Labor Secretary in the Clinton Administration and professor at Berkeley in California has been a frequent and vocal opponent of Trump.

Acquittal is not the end is his short video on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM

Acquittal may be the end for this incitement chapter, though, if Trump has granted himself a 'secret pardon', because I am sure any incitement case would be at the Federal level. OK, that might involve yet another trip round the houses to ascertain if he can pardon himself, but it is possible the Supreme Court would say he could.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 06:48 PM

I'd incline to think that the fact that Trump is clearly king of the Republican voters is going to turn out to be like a tombstone round the neck of the Republican party. His supporters are going to purge out the Trump critics, and the Democrats will show wall-to-wall clips from the trial video tapes of Jan 6, and the Republican Demagogue party will be slaughtered.

Remember, the 911 style commission of inquiry into Jan 6 is liable to be published with masses of extra evidence just about the ideal time for the 2022 midterms.

True enough, there are millions of people who are probably unshakeable in their devotion to Trump. But there are millions more who detest and despise him.

In electoral terms, the acquittal of Trump, however shameful it has to be for the USA, is a lottery win for the Democrats.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 07:00 PM

Well I'm not so sure about that. Sit around and do no more - he's free to campaign again. Charge him with all sorts of criminality in the normal courts - it goes on for ever, it galvanises his tens of millions of supporters and makes him a political martyr. As things stand, he holds all the cards...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 07:27 PM

Steve:
Trump holds cards that a lot of Republicans care about. He does not have nearly that much traction with the rest of the country.

The real nightmare would be if there was a canny Democrat who was able to be a more effective Trump.

It's easy to spot the demagogue when he's the other guy. The danger is when you think the demagogue is YOUR guy.

As Thomas Jefferson said: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

I am atremble just a bit. Not over Trmp, but the indisputable fact of his success due to my fellow Americans.

I agree with Jeri that Mcconnell is a worm. Except that many worms are humble, useful creatures. Earthworms, generally. There are plenty of other worms that burrow into animals and go to work devouring them from the inside. That is Mitch Mcconnell for you. Trmp was part of Mcconnell chickens coming home to roost. Meaning no respect for the noblest of the chickens however.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:10 PM

If Trump wrote himself a secret pardon that will go to the supreme court.

McConnell took monstrous advantage of his position as the majority leader in the senate to withhold hearings for Obama's supreme court nominee. He stopped legislating and followed his own course of revenge ever since his man Bork was borked.

I'm hoping some of those clever congressional and senatorial folks will try the next Constitutional move, as suggested by Robert Reich. and that Georgia and New York step up to charge him with crimes.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:16 PM

Polls indicate something like 80% of Republican voters still back Trump. Even if that just means the other 20% stay at home or vote for Independant candidates, let alone switching to the Democrate, that sounds like a death sentence for the Trump Party.

He's got all the cards for controlling and purging the Republican Party, probably true enough. He's the Kiss of Death.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 10:51 AM

I predicted tht he would not be found guilty


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 09:56 AM

I find it appropo that Tramp faces charges of breaking the Klu Klux Klan law of the 1889 Reconstruction era.

The SDNY AG office hired a very special lawyer who forced the judicial system to legally define Racketeering when applied to organized crime. In order to bring charges against Tramp the only stumbling block now is for the supreme court to release Tramp's financial information. They have not acted for many months.

imo I think the chief justice of the SC is afraid of the mob
Pun intended.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 10:52 AM

Gone are the Hobbits, Tasmanians and long lost tribes
Gone are Neanderthals except those who tried to hide.
The murder goes on with bullets and economics.
The killing's not for food or other solutions
Its not always for land, water or evolution.

Some murder over pigment and facial features
The killing goes on by men unlike creatures.
It starts with a lie that grows into fear
The cult to kill is proud and is here
They take an oath and drink a beer.

It may be the home of the brave
but I see those who live in fear.
They are the ones who need lots of guns
To defend and extend the slavery of
Tramp.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 05:15 AM

Interesting point: Is there a provision somewhere in US law that says someone cannot stand for public office (a) if they are bankrupt, or (b) if they have been convicted of a crime that carries a sentence of x years or more?


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 06:50 AM

Not Constitutionally but other laws disqualify convicted felons from many opportunities.
PS: Republicans MESSED with Texas.
They said "you don't mess with Texas" and therefore did not join the National power grid or federal regulations.
Republicans own the mess in Texas.

So far republicans are blaming windmills and 58% R blame the modern boogyman Antifa for attacking the Capitol.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 10:38 AM

That excuse is gone with the wind - even my Republican neighbors (who are otherwise nice people and who shared their generator power with me) acknowledge that it is the whole system that is messed up, not just wind power. Everyone now knows that the gas and coal plants failed big time (gas is the largest of the providers) because the water lines to the plants and other things in the mechanisms weren't protected against extreme lows.

But Trump isn't responsible for that.

Trump is still rumbling about starting another party (the "Patriot" party) or buying a little news channel that is out there on cable networks. There may be a paywall, but this Jan. 10 Wall Street Journal article talks about it. Here is a bit of the story:

Allies of President Trump are pursuing an effort to acquire right-leaning news channel One America News Network, according to people familiar with the matter, in a bid to shake up a conservative media market that has been dominated by Fox News.

The investment firm Hicks Equity Partners is looking to acquire the channel and is pitching other wealthy GOP donors to arrange a bid of roughly $250 million for the channel’s parent company, the people said. The firm is owned by the family of Thomas Hicks Jr. , co-chairman of the Republican National Committee and a close friend of Donald Trump Jr.

The efforts come as Mr. Trump has periodically rebuked Fox News for being too critical—despite its opinion-show hosts’ general support of his administration—and has praised One America News Network. The channel’s opinion programming is known among its cable-news peers for its praise of Donald Trump and its advocacy for conservative causes.

“Over the last 25 years, we have been active media investors. Any interest in OANN is from a purely business standpoint,” said Rick Newman, a partner at Hicks Equity Partners who is leading the deal with family patriarch and Trump donor Thomas Hicks.

One America News Network President Charles Herring said in an email that the network has become “a reliable news source for a national audience,” adding that the company has seen interest from potential suitors from time to time. “With the 2020 political season in full swing, expressed interest is on the rise,” he wrote. “Yet our family didn’t build our operations to sell it.”

One America News is owned by San Diego-based Herring Networks Inc., a TV-programming company that was launched in 2004 by Mr. Herring’s father, Robert Herring Sr., founder of a circuit-board firm. He launched the news channel in 2013.

They've also had their eye on a channel called NewsMax.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Helen
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 02:06 PM

Another milestone in the Saga of Trump the Orange has been passed.

Donald Trump's tax returns can be turned over to New York prosecutors, US Supreme Court rules

Key points:

* The New York prosecutor involved in the case has been seeking Mr Trump's tax records since 2019
* The decision to release the tax records came from the US Supreme Court
* Mr Trump had appointed three of the Supreme Court's Justices during his time as US president

The news article also refers to some of the other proposed cases to be brought against Trump.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 02:19 PM

SCOTUS will not prevent Tramp Tax Returns from going to the grand jury.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:10 AM

The 4 hour mob war against the 3rd branch of government by Tramp is being investigated. Overall people involved are saying "I didn't get the email".
Its like a cartoon.
"Sargent at Arms Shultz, what did you know and when did you know it?"
"I know nothing"
The same goes for Homeland Security formed after 9-11 to encourage communication between intelligence agencies. Perhaps some one at HLS could have watched TV. Or the Pentagon, or the FBI or the CIA or NSA or DIA etc. So I suppose all the people who Tramp appointed to those agencies are innocent along with Tramp.

I am reminded of V for vendetta. Although the plot motivation is opposite and explosives were not detonated, a masked mob showed up as a result of one person. I saw some of the deranged mob wear V masks during the insurrection.

Perhaps if we ignore it, it will go away like Brexit.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 10:21 AM

I didn't see the very beginning of those hearings - are they under oath? There are conflicting stories and it will eventually come out. Under oath means people can be prosecuted for lying about stuff.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:01 PM

Jim Jordan and Ron Johnson can tell whatever lie they want as they question people under oath. People willing to lie under oath are likely to defend their lie forever.

On disassters;
If it seems like we are all suffering more disaster events, we are.
Twenty years ago I discussd diasters so much I was accused of being a disaster troll. FEMA tells everyone to be prepared for 3 days on your own. 20 years ago only about 1 in 10 were preparing like Mormons to last for more than 3 days. Last year it was 20% and now it is nearly half (45%).

Our best survival tools can be found in government that many people are trying to destroy. I'm not saying hiding under the bed with 3 days of beans and water or building a bunker tunnel is the way to go.
But
in a pinch there is water that can be drained from hot water heatrs in an emergency. A supply of iodine or chlorine can protect water against Cholera. Cleverness and details is worth knowing in disasters. Its probably worth a thread of its own. FEMA is stretched beyond its limits right now.
Something is now in the wind that has a name but the next thing has no name.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Jos
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 01:39 AM

"Under oath means people can be prosecuted for lying about stuff."

I thought lying under oath meant that when you died you would go straight to hell.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:36 AM

Catholic guilt runs deep :^)


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 06:09 AM

"I thought lying under oath meant that when you died you would go straight to hell."

Nah. When we were at our Catholic school we were always told that the best time to be run over by a bus was just after you'd left the confessional box (caveat: it had to have been a genuine confession, with the intent of not doing those naughty things ever again, impossible of course with those impure thoughts...). The mind often boggled as we were told this, as the road junction just outside the church was easily the busiest and most hazardous in town...


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Jos
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 07:44 AM

If the hellish punishment for lying under oath only applies to Catholics, why are Protestant witnesses offered a Bible to hold while they are sworn in? I would have thought that without the availability of confession and absolution, they should be even more fearful of eternal damnation.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 08:08 AM

They should be. They can never get to heaven no matter how good they are. There are only Catholics in heaven. Our priests told us so. That's why I've decided I'm not going.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 10:37 AM

Confession is available in the Church of England, I don't know about the other Protestant denominations.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 11:48 AM

Manhattan DA Sifting Through Donald Trump’s Financial Records

After exhausting all his legal options, Donald Trump’s financial records are finally in the hands of New York District Attorney Cyrus Vance. CNN broke the news Thursday: “Prosecutors obtained the records on Monday, according to a source, just hours after the US Supreme Court denied Trump’s last-ditch effort to keep the records private.”

The records reportedly include millions of pages, so it is expected to take the office some time to go through the documents.

CNN points out, “Vance is investigating whether Trump and the Trump Organization engaged in tax fraud, insurance fraud and other schemes to defraud, including potentially providing false information to financial institutions or banks about the value of certain buildings and assets.”


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 12:47 PM

Cy Vance, isn't he the lawyer who lost the election for Gore in the SCOTUS decision and set us on course for conspiracy politics with W in charge" ?
Democrat bias is defined by believing in actual reality.
Republican bias is a self serving alternate truth.

Manitas,
Catholics borrowed guilt from a Jewish mother.
Original sin is like everyone getting a free forgiven card.

A man walks into an Anglican Church for the first time since childhood.
He goes into a new confessional and to his surprise there is a shelf of whiskey, a shelf of the finest mariquana, and a shelf of miscellaneous items like condoms and cigars. "Forgive me pastor for I have sinned? By the way I like this new confessional thing."
"Get out of there you idiot, you're on my side".


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 06:10 PM

"Friends, Quanons and countrymen lend me your ears. We here at CPAC to welcome our lord and savior Donald Trump after his heroic effort to save Amerika. Furthmore we have canceled our invitation to Kike Pense and Mith McConnel."

CPAC has in fact made a golden idol of Trump for their rally. For some reason Donald the idol is dressed in shorts so it doesn't look so much like the golden calf.


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Subject: RE: Federal, State & local prosecution of Donald Trump
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 07:02 PM

Do try to be grounded and sensible. Just for once.


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