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Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 11:09 AM 048 - Rio Grande (Norvegian sailor version) A few verses are given to Stan Hugill by a Norwegian sailor. "Rio Grande" was always sung at the anchor capstan or windlass, and was an outward-bound song. This song will be singing as a capstan shanty. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 94). Rio Grande (Norvegian sailor version) Oh, were ye ever at Rio Grand? - Rolling Rio! Oh, were you ever on that strand? - To me Rolling Rio Grande, - Way Rio! - Rolling Rio! - Then Sing fare-ye-well, to me pretty young gel, - To me Rolling Rio Grande, *2* Where the Portugee girls can be found, And they're the girls to waltz around. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 11:11 AM 049 - Oh, Aye, Rio This song was first printed in a book by Stan Hugill, and he stated that he learned it from an old sailor at Port Adelaide, South Australia. It's a dragging song, totally dirty, so Stan Hugill had to camouflage it a bit, keeping the original theme as much as possible. According to too Stan Hugill, this song is a forebitter. I try to recreate this song from hearted Stan Hugill's version from the album "Shanties From The Seven Seas" (1962), with The York & Albany Crew. Intriguingly, in this song, Stan Hugill only sings himself, without the crew in the chorus. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 96). OH, AYE, RIO Oh, lady have you a daughter fine? - Oh, aye, Rio! Oh, lady have you a daughter fine, Fit for a sailor that's crossed the line. - To me way, hay, ho, high, a long, long time ago! - To me way, hay, ho, high, a long, long time ago! *2* Oh, yes I have a daughter fine, Oh, yes I have a daughter fine, Fit for a sailor that's crossed the line. *3* But madam, dear madam, she is too young, But madam, dear madam, she is too young, She's never been courted by anyone. *4* Oh, sailor, oh, sailor, I'm not too young, Oh, sailor, oh, sailor, I'm not too young, I've just been kissed by the butcher's son, |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 11:12 AM 050 - A Long Time Ago (A) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. I try to recreate this song from hearted Stan Hugill's version from the album "Shanties From The Seven Seas" (1962). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 97). A Long Time Ago (A) O-ho, there ships they lay in Frisco Bay, - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! There ships they lay in Frisco Bay, - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* These smart Yankee packets lay out in the Bay, All a-waiting a fair wind to get under way, *3* With all their poor sailors so weak an' so sad, They'd drunk all their limejuice, no more could be had. *4* With all their poor sailors so sick an' so sore, They'd scoffed all their whack an' they couldn't get more. *5* Oh, I sailed out of 'Frisco in a full rigged ship, I sailed out o' 'Frisco in a full-rigged ship. *6* Her masts wuz of silver an' her yards wuz of gold, Her masts wuz of silver an' her yards wuz of gold. *7* We wuz bound for New York with a cargo o' gold, Bound south 'round the Hotn through the ice an' the cold. *8* In eighteen hundred and ninety-four, We shipped in a drogher bound for Singapore. *9* An' I fell in love with young Malay maid, She swiped all me money, before I wuz paid *10* My ol' mum she wrote to me, She wrote to me to come home from sea. *11* Says she 'Me son, ye'll rue the day, When the girls have blown, lad, all yer pay. *12* She sent me some money, she sent me some clothes, But I spent all the money an' pawned the clothes. *13* An' ever since then I have thought of her word, 'Twas the finest advice that a man ever heard. *14* An' as soon as I gits me feet on shore, I,ll ship as a bosun of a little rum store. *15* An' if ever I gits me feet on land, I'll ship as some young lady's fancyman. *16* Oh, a long time, an' a very long time, Tis a very long time since I first made this rhyme. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 11:47 AM 051 - Opsang For Brasiliefareren, Briggen Preciosa (Norwegian) A Norwegian version from "Opsang" is a good example of the type of verse Henrik Wergeland, the Norwegian composer, wrote to supplant the usual ribald ones. In "Opsang" can be found the other fifty-four verses, He wrote - quite enough to finish a long heave! "Rio Grande" was always sung at the anchor capstan or windlass, and was an outward-bound song. This song will be singing as a capstan shanty. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 94, 95). Opsang For Brasiliefareren, Briggen Preciosa Nu tage vi et langt Farvel - O Rio! med dig, du gamle, norske Fjeld. - To my rolling Rio Grande! - Way Rio! - O Rio! - Then sing fare-ye-well, to me pretty young gel, - To my rolling Rio Grande! *2* Farvel, du gamle Graa! Farvel! Vi tænke, at du staaer nok lel. *3* Vi tænke, at du staaer endda, mens vi er i Amerika. *4* I Golfen under Mexico vi skifte ei vor norske Tro. *5* I Rio og i Pernambuc paa Norge tænke vi med Suk. *6* Ja vestenfore selv Cap Horn i Hjertet sidder Hjemvees Torn. *7* Det bløder, bløder op igjen i Paradiis-Brasilien. *8* Did er det Preciosa skal, langt udenfor den blaa Kanal. *9* Da er det først hun fører Seil, naar England seer vort Agterspeil. *10* Farvel, Europa! Cap Lizard er Næsen paa din gamle Nar. *11* Men herlig som en Aftensky i Vest gaaer op en Verden ny. *12* Did stunder Preciosas Lyst med Seil saa fuldt som Svanens Bryst. *13* Da er det først ved Finisterr` hun lufter sine hvide Fjer. *14* Da er det som en Svane roer fra Cap Vincent til Mogador. *15* Og bagud gaaer den hvide Foss. Følg os, du vilde Albatross! *16* Følg os, du vaade Flyvefisk! Vi paa Madera faa en Pidsk. *17* Det blæser varmt fra Afrika. Men Pico gi'e vi et Hurra. *18* Thi Sneen skinner fra dets Top. Den frisker norske Hjerter op. *19* Tørhænde kommer en Korsar. Da Gutter, op! Kanonen klar! *20* Op flyver da vort norske Flag. Nu kan det bli'e saa varm en Dag. *21* Vi tænke paa Jorsalafar. Hans Klinge Blaamandshovder skar. *22* Vi tænke, at vi hævde maa Normannanavnet paa det Blaa. *23* Den sorte Skonnert braser væk. Han saae det blinked paa vort Dæk. *24* Han saae et Glimt af en Musket og Spidsen af en Bajonet. *25* Han tænkte da: der er vel fleer? At dreje af det bedste er. *26* Han gik i Læ, den slu Pirat. Da kom en fygende Dravat. *27* Men lad staa til! Passat vi faaer. Mod Vest, mod Vest, mod Vest det gaaer. *28* Vi bære af, og Hajen med. Af Os skal han ei blive feed. *29* Jo bi! Der har du din Portion! Du pryde skal vor Gallion. *30* Vi hale ham med Lænker ind, og spænde ud den Morders Skind. *31* Vi bære af mod Vest, mod Vest! Vi Linjen skar. Det var en Fest. *32* Da drak vi Norges Skaal med Skjemt. Kaptainens blev ei heller glemt. *33* Og Rhederen paa sit Kontor, han fik en Bommert, som var stor. *34* Vor vakkre Preciosa med vi gjorde i en Skaal Besked. *35* Hun, før vi vidste Ord deraf, har gjennemkløvt det store Hav. *36* Der blaaner alt i Havets Rand Brasiliens Slaraffenland. *37* Og Rio aabner alt sin Bugt. Der, Preciosa, hvil din Flugt! *38* Som ungen Brud sin Rosenkrands, sit Flag hun bær' -- vort Fædrelands. *39* Forundret knapt Kreolen troer, at det er Nordens Trikolor. *40* Men Negren kommer med sin Sæk. Saa stuve vi fra Bund til Dæk. *41* Og naar vi synes, vi har nok, saa op med Bramseil! ud med Fok! *42* Saa maa vi hjem til gamle Moer. Hun veed vi efter Kaffe foer. *43* Hun sidder bag det gamle Fjeld, og ønsker os paa Reisen Held. *44* Hun ønsker vi maa komme snart. Tilbage derfor i en Fart! *45* Følg os, Atlanterhavets Hai! Tilbage over Porto Pray! *46* Ja fra den takkede Azor tilbage til det elskte Nord! *47* Kanalen aabner sig, Hurra! Nu er vi ikke langt derfra. *48* Da raabe vi til Vinden: blæs! Vi længes efter Lindesnæs. *49* Vi længes svarlig hjem igjen. Det gjør vi i Brasilien. *50* Og Apelsinen gyldenmalt vi spise tidt til Taarers Salt. *51* Men naar vi Norge faa at see, da er forbi al Sorg og Vee. *52* Hvis Visen synes dig for lang, saa syng en Stub deraf hvergang! *53* Matrosen hugger af sin Bus. Med Visen gjør det samme Puds! *54* Og blev den lang, saa glem dog ei, Preciosa har saa lang en Vei. Hurra! Hurra! for Singsallijo! |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 12:32 PM 052 - A Long Time Ago (B) EN According to Stan Hugill, the patterns sang to this shanty He knows, are: (1) "The 'Frisco Ship" (from an A.B. of the New Zeland tops'l schooner Huia); (2) The "If" version (Captain Kihlberg, ex-scots barque "Fasces"); (3) The "Noah's Ark" version (Bosun Chenoweth, ex-"Mount Stewart"); (4) A "Roll the Cotton Down" version (this version was very popular); (5) A "Blow the Man Down" version (from the singing of Paddy Delaney); (6) An "A-rovin'" version (mainly bawdy); (7) A "Time for us to go" version; (8) A "China Clipper" version (from the singing of Jock Anderson). This song was sung as halyard shanty. I try to recreate this song from hearted Stan Hugill's version from the album "Shanties From The Seven Seas" (1962). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 98). A Long Time Ago (B) A ship lay becalmed off Portland Bill, - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! If she hasn't a fair wind she's layin' there still. - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* There once wuz a family which lived on a hill, If they're not dead they're livin' there still. *3* There once wuz a sailor shipped a ballon, An' if he's still floatin' he's now reached the moon. *4* There once wuz a farmer in Norfolk did dwell, If he went off an' died, oh, he's sure bound to hell. *5* There wuz an ol' woman that lived in a shoe, If she'dhadten bras more, oh, she'd have forty-two. *6* There wuz an ol' lady who lived in Dundee, If she hadn't been sick she'd have gone off to sea. *7* There wuz an ol' yokel in Sussex did dwell, He had an ol' wife an' he wished her hell. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 12:42 PM 053 - A Long Time Ago (C) - (WITH PRESENTATION) The shanty sometimes was sung in lively fashion, other times slow and melancholy, depending on the shantyman. Sometimes it was used at the capstan and then a full chorus been added. This song will be singing as an ancor-capstan shanty. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 99,100). A Long Time Ago (C) The ships they lay in 'Frisco Bay, - To me WAY, hay, HO,high ho! The ships they lay in 'Frisco Bay, - A LONG time aGO! - A long, long time, an' a very long time, - To me WAY, hay, HO,high ho! - A long, long time, and a very long time, - A LONG time aGO! *2* An' one o' these packets wuz ol' Noah's Ark, All covered all over with hickory bark. *3* They filled up her seams with oakum an' pitch, Her sails wuz baldly in need o' a stitch. *4* Her bow it wuz bluff an' her counter wuz round, Her knees wuz so thin, an' her timbers unsound. *5* Her fo'c'sle wuz low, an' her starn wuz too high, The hold for the animals never wuz dry. *6* Her pumps they wuz jammed and her fores'l wuz torn, She looked like an ol' Spanish galley-eye-orn. *7* Now this is the gangway the animals went down, An' this is the hold were they walk round an' round. *8* Ol' Noah of old he commanded this Ark, His cargo wuz animals out for a lark. *9* He boarded the animals, two of each kind, Birds, snakes, an' jiggy-bugs, he didn't mind. *10* The animals rolled up, oh, two by two, The elephant casin' the kangaroo. *11* The bull an' the cow they started a row, The bull did his best to horn the cow. *12* Then Ol' Noah said with a flick o' his whip, 'Stop this bloody row, or I'll scuttle the ship.' *13* An' the bull put his horns through the side o' the ark, An' the little black doggie, he started to bark. *14* So Noah took the dog, put his nose in the hole, An' ever since then the dog's nose has been cold. *15* The animals came in three by three, The elephant ridin' the back o' the flea. *16* The animals came in four by four, Ol' Noah wentmad an' he hollered for more. *17* The animals came in five by five, Some wuz half-dead, an' some half-alive. *18* The animals came in six by six, The hyena laughed at the monkey's tricks. *19* The monkey was dressed up in soger's clo'es; Where he got 'em from, God only knows. *20* The animals came in seven by seven, Sez the ant to the elephant, 'who are yer shovin'?' *21* The animals came in eight by eight, A drunken big chimp an' a scabby big ape. *22* The animals came in nine by nine, The sea-lions havin' a bloomin' fine time. *23* The animals came in ten by ten, The Ark with a shriek blew her whistle then. *24* An' Noah while working at loading her stock, Had anchored the Ark with a bloody great rock. *25* Ol' Noah he then hove the gang-plank in, An' then the long voyage it sure did begin. *26* They hadn't the foggiest where they wuz at, Untill they piled right up on ol' Ararat. *27* The ol' Ark with a bump landed high an' dry, And the bear give the turkey a sailor's goodbye. *28* I thought that I heard Ol' Noah say, Give one more pull lads, an' then belay! |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 05 Feb 21 - 12:45 PM 054 - A Long Time Ago (D) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. The stanzas from stanza 7, as suggested in the book (see Roll The Cotton Down), come from "Roll The Cotton Down (C)" from page 154-155 (same book 1st edition). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 100, 101). A Long Time Ago (D) Oh, away down south where I wuz born, - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! Among them fields o' golden corn. - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* Oh, away down south where I wuz born, An' away down south where I wuz born *3* Around Cape Horn where the salty winds blow, Around Cape Horn through the ice an' the snow. *4* Around Cape Horn we've got to go, Around Cape Horn to ol' Callyo. *5* I wisht to rhe Lord that I'd niver bin born To be all a-ramblin' round Cape Horn. *6* Oh, a dollar a day is a white man's pay, To pump all night and to work all day, *7* Oh, away down south around Cape Horn, Oh, we wisht to Christ we'd niver bin born! *8* Oh, away down south one winter's morn, Oh, away down south around Cape Horn. *9* We're bound to Mobile Bay. We're bound away at the break o' day. *10* Oh, around Cape Horn we're boundcto go, Around Cape Stiff midst the ice an' snow. *11* Oh, 'Frisco town is far behind, An' the gals down south are free an' kind. *12* Oh, fare-ye-well we're bound to go, Never let it be said we,ll forget you. *13* So stretch it aft an' start a song, A bloody fine song and it won't take long *14* Oh, stretch yer backs an' haul away, An' make yer port an' take yer pay. *15* I'll sing ye a song if ye'll git me some gin, That'll bouse this block right down to the pin. *16* Oh, rock 'n' shake 'er is the cry, The bloody topm'st sheave is dry. *17* Oh, haul away when she takes the next roll, Why don't the Mate shake 'er, oh, Gawd blast his soul. *18* Oh, I wisht Johnny Slite would keep his luff, The bastard thinks we've hauled enough. *19* Oh, sweat that yard the Mate do say. Give one more pull, lads, then belay! |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:18 AM 055 - A Long Time Ago (E) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. The stanzas from stanza 6, as suggested in the book (see "Blow the Man Down" and "The Blackball Line"), comes from "Horraw For The Blackball Line" from page 131 (same book 1st edition). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 101). A Long Time Ago (E) I'll sing ye a song of the Blackball Line, - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! That's the Line where ye can shine - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* In the Blackball Line I served me time, That's the Line where I wasted me prime. *3* It's when a Blackballer hauls out of the dock, To see them poor 'Westers', how on deck they flock. *4* There's tinkers an' tailors, an' fakirs an' all, They've all shipped as A.B.s aboard the Blackball. *5* It's fore tops'l halyards the Mate he will roar, It's lay along Paddy, ye son-o-a-whore! *6* Blackball ship are good an' true, They are ships for me an' you, *7* If yer wish to find a real goldmine, Just take a trip on a Blackball ship. *8* Just take a trip to Liverpool, To Liverpool that Yankee school. *9* Yankee sailors ye'll see there, With red-topped boots an' short-cut hair. *10* There's Liverpool Pat with his tarpaulin hat, An' Paddy Magee the Packet Rat. *11* There was once a Blackball ship, That fourteen knots an hour could slip. *12* They'll carry ye along through the ice an' snow, They'll take ye where the winds don't blow *13* I've seen the Line rise an' shine, An' crossed the line 'em many a time. *14* Oh, drink a health to the Blackball Line, Their ships are stout an' their men are fine. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:22 AM 056 - A Long Time Ago (F) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. The stanzas from stanza 5, as suggested in the book (see "A-Rovin'"), comes from "A-Rovin'" from pages 48, 49 (same book 1st edition). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 101). A Long Time Ago (F) In 'Frisco Town there lived a maid, - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! An' she wuz mistress of her trade. - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* One nighy I crept from my abode, To meet this fair maid down the road. *3* I placed my arm around her waist, Sez she, "Young man, yer in great haste!" *4* I put me hand upon her knee, Sez she, "Young man, yer rather free!" *5* I put my hand upon her thigh, Sez she, "Young man, yer rather high!" *6* I towed her to the Maiden's Breast, From south the wind veered wes'sou'west *7* An' the eyes in her head turned east an' west, And her thoughts wuz as deep as an ol' sea-chest. *8* We had a drink - of grub a snatch, We sent two bottles down the hatch. *9* Her dainty arms wuz white as milk, Her lovely hair wuz soft as silk. *10* Her heart wuz poundin' like a drum, Her lips wuz red as any plum. *11* We laid down on a grassy patch, An' I felt such a ruddy ass. *12* She pushed me over on me back, She laughed so hard her lips did crack. *13* She swore that she'd be true to me, But spent me pay-day fast and free. *14* In three weeks' time I wuz badly bent, Then off to sea I sadly went. *15* In a bloodboat Yank bound round Cape Horn, Me boots an' clothes wuz all in pawn. *16* Bound round Cape Stiff through ice an' snow, An' up the coast to Callyo. *17* An' then back to the Liverpool Docks, Saltpetre stowed in our boots an' socks. *18* Now when I got back home from sea, A soger had her on his knee. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:25 AM 057 - A Long Time Ago (G) - (WITH PRESENTATION) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. The stanzas from stanza 4, as suggested in the book (see "A Hundred Years Ago'"), come from "A Hundred Years Ago'" from page 510 (same book 1st edition). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 101). A Long Time Ago (G) Old Bully John from Baltimore - Timme WAY, hay, HO,high ho! Old Bully John from the Eastern Shore - Oh a LONG time aGO! *2* Old Bully John I knew him well, But now he's dead an' gone to hell. *3* A bully on land an' a bucko at sea, Old Bully John wuz the boy for me, *4* He's as dead as a nail in the lamproom door, He's dead as nail, that son-o'-a-whore. *5* A hundred years have passed an' gone, 'Tis a hundred years since I made this song. *6* They used to think that pigs could fly, Can you believe this bloody lie? *7* They thought the stars were set alight By bunch o' angels every night. *8* They thought the word was flat or square, That old Columbus never got there. *9* They though the moon was made o' cheese; You can believe if yer please. *10* They thought that merimaids were no yarn, But we know better 'cos we can larn. *11* They hung a man for making steam, They pitched his body in a stream. *12* Oh, a very long time an' a very long time, 'Tis a hell o' a time since I made this rhyme. *13* Oh, don't yiz hear the Old Man say, Just one more pull, lads, then belay! |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:28 AM 058 - A Long Time Ago (Harding Barbadian melody version) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. This version has melody preferred by the teacher of the Stan Hugill, the shantyman Harding the Barbadian Barbarian from Barbados. The "y' know" at the end of his second chorus was most effective. The first Stanza of this shanty comes from the notation of Harding's tune description, from page 103, other stanzas come from version H from page 102 (1st ed.). "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 102). A Long Time Ago (Harding Barbadian melody version) Johnny Jernan' wuz Portugee man, - To me WAY, hay, HO, ya, ya! Ol' Johnny Jernan' wuz Portugee man, - A LONG time a-GO, y' know! There wuz an old lady in Greenock did dwell, - To me WAY, hay, HO, ya, ya! She had three fine sons an' their story I'll tell. *2* One was a sailor an' one was a Mate The third got his Master's a little bit late *3* He shipped as the Master of a big clipper ship, An' out to fair China he made a smart trip. *4* The ship he commanded was no ruddy Ark, But a dandy fine clipper as fast a shark. *5* When he reached far Foochow oh there met his fate, He found him a Chink gal to serve him as mate. *6* He spliced this young Chink gal with a pitgail so long, But later he wished had not met Miss Fong. *7* Oh, she wore the trousers an' he wore the skirt, He was down on his luck an' his pride it was hurt. *8* The passage to England was a hell o' a show, One hundred an' eighteen long days for to go. *9* Oh he roused uphis Chink wife an' coursed loud an' long, Oh, you are the bastard that's caused all this wrong. *10* 'You're a bloody big Jonah, yer a hoodoo to me, I've had nought but bad luck since ye came to sea.' *11* But when he reached London, the owners did say, 'You've made a smart passage you've earn your pay-day.' *12* So he kissed his young Chink wife, gave rum to the crowd, The hands gave a cheer, boys, so strong an' so loud. *13* An' this is the end of my salty story, Just think o' the luck o' the heathen Chinee. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:46 AM 059 - A Long Time Ago (Cecil Sharp Version) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. This version is a Cecil Sharp version from the book "English Folk-Chanteys" - 1914. Unfortunately, it has only three verses. The last five bars make it possible capstan shanty. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 103). A Long Time Ago (Cecil Sharp Version) Away down south where I was born, - To my WAY - ay - DAY, ha! Away down south where I was born, - A LONG time a-GO - twas a long, long time and a very long time, - A LONG time a-GO *2* O! early on a summer's morn. O! early on a summer's morn. *3* I Made up my mind to go the sea. I Made up my mind to go the sea. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 07 Feb 21 - 03:49 AM 060 - A Long Time Ago (Gordon Hitchcock version) This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. Only one stanza is given in Stan Hugill's book. This version comes from the mentioned "Shell Book of Shanties" (which is actually the wrong title, because the true title is "The Shell Book of Sea Shanties") by Gordon Hitchcock (1952). Fortunately, I found the book, I bought one and lonely available exemplar in the whole online world, and from Germany arrived mail with this book, so I can sing this shanty to you in full four stanzas version. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 104). A Long Time Ago (Gordon Hitchcock version) A long, long time and a long time a-go, - To me WAY, hay, o-HI-o! A long, long time and a long time a-go, - A LONG time a-GO! *2* A smart Yankee packet lay out in the bay: Awaiting a fair wind to get under way, *3* With all her poor sailors all sick and all sore: They'd drunk all their lime juice, and couldn't get more, *4* If she's not had a fair wind she's lying there still: If she's not had a fair wind she's lying there still. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Feb 21 - 10:30 AM How many languages do you speak, Jerzy? Are the Norwegian songs sounded out (phonetic) or do you speak it? |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 08 Feb 21 - 09:16 AM I speak Polish (my origin), English, Scottish some of Russian, German, I understand Slovakian and Czech also I did have learned my first-degree course Latin and Greek, about my Norwegian shanties, I do not speak Norwegian, it has been recorded three shanties in Norwegian by me till now. The effort I made on those three was I found native Norwegians who record lyrics on audio, and I listen to it try to remember the pronunciation. I do understand they can be not good enough for native Norwegians, but I did try my best. Also, the worth noting is that those shanties are written in quite an odd form, it is not used language with a kind of Danish way of pronunciation. You can find the names of people who helped me in those shanties in the description. Beware, next my shanty will be "De Hoffnung" - my first German Shanty. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Feb 21 - 10:18 AM It is my guess that with an ear for all of those languages that you have a better than average chance of pronouncing the Norwegian words correctly in those songs you're listening to. I haven't listened to every post's song, but I enjoy them when I drop in on the links. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 08 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM Great stuff, Shogun. A very useful thread being compiled here. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 09 Feb 21 - 03:10 AM A little explanation of how a single song recreation and record process happens. Stan Hugill, in his "Shanties From the Seven Seas," gives us shanties and forebiters not only in the English language. He also gives us shanties in foreign Languages such as Norwegian, German, and more, but I cannot confirm what other languages he used, because I'm in the stage of analysis first part of the book. To achieve the result as close as possible to the authentic origin, I do the following steps to record the song: Every time, when I start to recreation process after then I copy notes and generate a melody to learn and memorize, If the song is in a Language that I'm unsure about pronunciation, I find somebody who is native to the Language of the song. I ask this person to record for me text when he read it, and this is the basis for learning text to the song. But of course, are other issues like the balance of accents, and slowness or speed up of the sentences, also dynamics of the language can be different between singing and talking. So after recording, I sent the record to a person who helped me with the record. Do I use records of the songs to learn melodies, yes but I do it only in one unique circumstance when I have an original song signing by Stan Hugill himself. In this situation I think is best to get the authentic sound and soul of the particular shanty. In other situations, I use only my intuition, and knowledge about the type of work when a particular shanty was used. It is another exception worth noting: even if I have the performance of Stan Hugill, sometimes very rarely, I slow down the tempo of the shanty, especially when records are in later yers of Stan Hugill singing, and it is because I think and this is not only mine opinion, in the last performances of Stan Hugill, he takes more as consideration stage circumstances, i.e. speed up songs to better music and art results. Generally, about tempo, when I do record, in most cases, especially in pump and capstan shanty I get the assumption is that sailors are tired and not very happy, due to circumstances of they hard live, and work. So the tempo can be a bit slower, but I think is really different when sailors sing the first song in pumps, and how it sounds after 2 hours of pumping. I assume after the first one or two shanties in optimistic speed, tempo stabilized on the slower but constant and still dynamic tempo (In the next posts I will try to explain tempo issue in other types of shanties). And lastly, when I do not have access to Stan Hugill's performance, I follow my intuition and knowledge about the type of shanty and circumstances when was used. The other sources and records of particular shanty I listen to only after the record been made, so I'm sure they do not have an impact on my version. Of course, in many cases they matched with other sources, but not always, I thig the ratio is 50/50 if of course song is found. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 09 Feb 21 - 11:21 AM 061 - De Hoffnung - (German) EN Stan Hugill tells, is that this shanty was popular aboard a German four-masted barque, He was shipped in called "Gustav", hailing from Bremen. The first time Stan Hugill heard this version from Ossie Ziemer, young seamen from the Fresian Islands, would often raise it at t'gallant halyards. To raise up this yard, it was always sung, long haul type halyard shanty(slower tempo), due to the huge weight of the yard. This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 104). De Hoffnung De Hoffnung wor hunnert Dag ünner wegs, - to my way, hay, hoday. Se seil von Hamborg no Valparaiso. - a long time ago. *2* Se seilte good und se seilte hart, Se harr so'ne gode kostbare Fracht. *3* Un as de Ool nu flucht un gnattert, Dor keem de Düvel över de Reeling klattert. *4* Wenn mi in tein Dag nenn Kanal du bringst, Denn krigst mien Seel, so woor as du stinkst. *5* De Pott leep negentein Mielen toletzt, Dor harr de Düvel de Skyseils bisett. *6* Un as se nu kemen in'n Kanal to Stell, Dar seegt de Düvel "Nu her mit de Seel!". *7* Dar seeg de Ool „Nu lot di man tiet", "We goot to Anker bi Cape St. Patric". *8* De Düvel de weer vör Freid ganz weg, He leep op de Back, sett de Anker op slip. *9* De ole Timm'mann har grote Freid, He harr den Düvel sien'n Steert mitvertäut. *10* Un as de Anker nu suust an den Grund, Suust de Düvel mit, disse Swienehund. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 10 Feb 21 - 12:58 AM It's Plattdeutsch. Different pronunciation than Standard German. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 10 Feb 21 - 01:42 PM Gibb Sahib Thanks for your attention, this is great news for me, the shanty expert such you, look at it. I will gently ask you to be a little bit more precise in your comments. Do you mean the song needs to be singing in Plattdeutsch? I'm not sure what you mean? About this what says Hugill on page 105 first edition of "Shanties From the Seven Seas", is "Low German of Hamburg", which is actually called: "Hamborger Platt" which is a variety of standard German. To be honest, I did not been as precise to find a person with "Hamborger Platt" accent, however, this is a good point, for the next shanty in German, I will try to find a person with this particular accent, but I cannot promise it until somebody agrees. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 10 Feb 21 - 02:58 PM Gibb Sahib So now is the question, is that "Plattedeutsh" is the same as "Hamborger Platt", I cannot answer this question and need to be researched further, and is not an easy case for me, here one of German explanation of the case: ...Platt or Plattdeutsch is the slang term for the Low German language. This consists of a large number of local dialects, which are often provided with the place name to distinguish them, for example, Oldenburger Platt, East Frisian Platt, Sauerländer Platt, or Heidjer Platt spoken in the Lüneburg Heath. Wooden beams with the inscription The term "Heidjer Platt" belongs, like other dialects, to different Lower Saxony dialect groups: to North Lower Saxony in the northwest and to Ostfälisch (Heideostfälisch) in the southeast. The dividing line runs roughly along the Uelzen-Celle-Wedemark line. These dialects can still be found frequently in everyday life today. Neighboring dialects are Holsteiner Platt, Hamburger Platt, the dialects around Bremen, and the East Westphalian dialects further ... source: naturpark lueneburger Seems to be related, but are they pronounce exactly the same? So maybe you have some other sources, which is giving some light, how German sailor language sound, or you just base of note from "Shanties From the Seven Seas"? |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 11 Feb 21 - 02:14 AM About difference between: "Plattedeutsh" and "Hamborger Platt" Here two native Germans who asked my question about the difference between the two varaieties of German: Source One: 1. Plattdeutsch ( Low German) is a germanic language variety spoken especially in northern Germany, depending in the Region you can find plenty of under categories such as ostfriesisch, Oldenburger platt, Hamburger platt and many more. So the answer to your question is: No it's Not the Same, Hamburger Platt is an under category of Plattdeutsch 2. Following Link will direct you to an excellent Video to learn the Song, as it's Not sung by are couir. https://youtu.be/CzJNM2QF7qU Source Two: "Plattdeutsch ist eine eigene Sprache mit eigener Grammatik! Haben es noch in der Schule gelernt! Die Hamburger sprechen einen Dialekt! Und auch das Friesische ist eine völlig eigenständige Sprache die aber auch gar nicht mit dem Platt und dem Hamburgischen Dialekt zu tun hat!". English Translation: "Low German is its own language with its own grammar! Learned it in school! The people of Hamburg speak a dialect! And Frisian is also a completely independent language that has nothing to do with the Platt and the Hamburg dialect!". That is tented me to opinion to that dialect are different, or at least German natives see this difference clearly. Of course to find what is a difference in those dialects is out of the scope of my research, but I know for sure, I need to find native German, who speak in "Hamborger Platt", to be close as possible to recreate further, German shanties and forebitters from Stan Hugill's book. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 11 Feb 21 - 02:50 AM Moin, moin! (greeting in Platt) "Plattdeutsch" = German name for the language/dialect "Low German" = English name for the language/language "Platt" = short name of it Contrast with "Hochdeutsch" = "High German" = what tends to be considered "standard" German. Plattdeutsch is especially associated with Hamburg (called "Hamborg" in Plattdeutsch). So, "Hamborger Platt." Hamburg is the seaport most associated with German shipping, so most of the sailor songs are in Plattdeutsch. If I remember correctly, only 1 or 2 of the "German" songs in Hugill's book are High German. The rest are Low German. Plattdeutsch / Low German is slightly more similar to Dutch/Nederlands and English than High German. Plattdeutsch pronunciation is different. For example, in Standard German the letter "S" makes Z sound of "Zebra." In Plattdeutsch, S makes S sound of "Seven." The orthography/spelling resembles Dutch. "R" has "rolled" sound. Pronunciation of "Hamborg" is like /hamboich/. I think some of the German shanty choirs "convert" the Plattdeutsch words/pronunciation to Standard German, so be careful when you listen to examples. I think Hannes Wader sings with proper pronunciation. https://youtu.be/gHtybtPxrEM I am no expert on this. I'm just sharing what I learned after studying to sing the Plattdeutsch songs. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 11 Feb 21 - 03:11 AM Gibb Sahib Thanks for your comment, now I do know about another bit of the puzzle, to bring me closer to authenticity. You point me to detail I miss. So now I will try to select the native speakers more carefully. If you see other bits I should focus on, please let me know, so my work will be better. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 11 Feb 21 - 03:50 AM I will try to compare Standard German, Platt, Dutch, and English. (It is my **attempt** to convert to Standard German and Dutch equivalent. Someone will correct me, but I think it is close enough for the purpose.) STANDARD GERMAN: Und als sie jetzt kommen in den Kanal um zu Stelle Dort sagt der Teufel, "Jetzt hier mit der Seele!" [Listen to pronunciation] PLATT: Un as se nu kemen in'n Kanal to Stell, Dar seggt de Düvel, "Nu her mit de Seel!" [Listen to Hannes Wader recording for pronunciation] DUTCH: En als ze nu komen in het kanaal om te stellen, Daar zegt de duivel: "Nu hier met de ziel!" ENGLISH literal translation: An' as they now come in the Channel to stall (anchor) There says the Devil, "Now here with the soul!" |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 12 Feb 21 - 10:10 AM 062 - De Hoffnung - (English version) Stan Hugill tells, is that this shanty was popular aboard a German four-masted barque, He was shipped in called "Gustav", hailing from Bremen. The first time Stan Hugill heard this version from Ossie Ziemer, young seamen from the Fresian Islands, would often raise it at t'gallant halyards. To raise up this yard, it was always sung, long haul type halyard shanty(slower tempo), due to the huge weight of the yard. This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty. Here is the English translation by Ingo Scharf. It also possible that the song has never been sung at sea, and Hugill just posts a translation of a German song, whatever, in My opinion, this beautiful translation deserves to use it. And even feel proud of the possibility I will be the first person to singing it this text. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 105). De Hoffnung - English Translation De Hoffnung was a hundreed days under way, - to my way, hay, hoday. She sailed from Hamburg to Valparaiso. - a long time ago. *2* She sailed good and she sailed hard, She had such a fine and costly cargo. *3* And as the Old Man swore and cursed, The Devil came climbing over the rail. *4* If you bring me to the Channel in ten days time, Surely as you stink you will get my soul. *5* The old hulk, at last, went nineteen knots, THe Devil had the skysails set. *6* And when she came to the channel to anchor, Then said the Devil, 'Give me your soul.' *7* Then said the Old Man, 'Take your time, We have to anchor by Cape St. Patric". *8* The Devil now was more than overjoyed, He ran up the fo'c'sle-head to let go the anchor. *9* The old carpenter was greatly pleased, He had spliced the Devil's backside to the anchor. *10* And as the anchor went down to the ground, The Devil went with it--the dirty big hound! |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM ... continue on "Platedeutsh" In conversation with Simon Spalding, which is an expert on shanties, world folk music, and musicologist who play multiple traditional instruments, also he is passionate about languages of the world. For my question: Is there "Hamborger Platt" any unique and differ from Plattdeutch" or other types, in the context of Stan Hugill's notes about language matter used in German shanties? the answer was: "To answer your question about Plattdeutsch - they use this term for the local dialect all over northern Germany, for dialects which are not all the same. However, I can see- from more experience in the countryside than Stan had - that what he calls “typical Hamburg sailor dialect “ is identical to typical "Ostfriesian country dialect “. This because in the past, if a young man didn’t have enough local work, he could always go to Hamburg or Bremen to find a berth on a merchant ship (often a British one), or go to Wilhelmshafen ( when it was finished) to join the navy. For young Ostfriesian males of strong mind and body, the sea has been a “default employment “ for a long time- you can still sense it." So this slightly corrects me to move from identifying actual German sailors' dialect from "Hamborger Platt" into "Ostfriesian country dialect “. And this is probably the native dialect that "De Hoffnung" has been sung. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:04 AM Shogun, Just figure out how to pronounce it! Call it whatever you want; you're making it too complicated with all these names. :) I don't see the point in reading words from a book in a foreign language without knowing how to pronounce the words. You had called it a "German" song, and I also noticed one thing you were doing in pronunciation was Standard German style: Pronouncing "S" like Z in English "zebra." But in Platt (pick a dialect!) the S should be like S in Italian "salami". That's different than Standard German. There are Platt songs in Hugill and there are Standard German songs in Hugill. You'll need to distinguish them. LOW GERMAN De Hoffnung De Hamborger Veermaster Wat Wi Doht De Runer Von Hamborg No den Süden to... Magelhan x 2 De Kock HIGH GERMAN Die Gute Alte Brigg Es Gingen Drei Mädchen Upidee, Upidah Frisch Auf, Alle Mann an Deck Hamburg, Du Schöne Stadt Das Sampanmädchen |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 16 Feb 21 - 04:11 AM 063 - California Shortly after the young congressman, Abraham Lincoln came home from Washington and settled down again to the practice of law in Springfield, Illinois, there were announcements in news-papers occasionally, such as, "All who are interested in the California expedition will meet at candle-light to-night in the courthouse." California then was a place to talk about, to guess, and wonder about. The news came from Sutter's Creek: ten men shook pay dirt through hand screens and found a million dollars apiece in gold nuggets; the San Francisco city council adjourned without setting a date when it would meet again, churches closed their doors, newspapers stopped printing, ships lay in the harbor with no sailors, cooks, and soldiers ran away from military forts. A free-for-all rush started to the gold-digging: a spade sold for $1,000.00. It was news that made New York and London sit up. Across the Great Plains came wagon trains; in ten miles along the Plate River, a traveler counted 450 wagons. At the trial's end was gold and California... This shanty is the first song opening the "Sacramento" family. This shanty was always sung at the capstan and especially when raising the 'mud-hook'. Stan Hugill in "Shanties From the Seven Seas" gives us only one verse, it comes from a book called "The American Songbag" by Carl Sandburg (1927). Fortunately, I found this book so I will be very proud to sing it for you, in full five stanzas version. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 106). California When formed our band, we are all well manned, To journey a far to the promised land, The golden ore is rich in store, on the banks of the Sacramento shore, - Then ho, boys, ho, To California go, - There's plenty of gold in the world I'm told, - On the banks of the Sacramento shore. *2* As oft we roam o'er the dark sea's foam, We'll not forget kind friends at home, But memory kind still brings to mind The love of friends we left behind. *3* We'll expected our share of the coarset fare, And sometimes sleep in the open air. On the cold damp ground we'll all sleep sound Except when the wolves go howling round. *4* As we explore to the distant shore, Filling our pockets with the shining ore, How it will sound as the shout goes round, Filling our pockets with a dozen of pounds. *5* The gold is there almost anywhere; We dig it out rich with an iron bar, But where it is thick, with spade or pick We take out chunks as big as a brick. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:29 AM 064 - Sacramento (A) This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". The origin of this shanty has many controversies. Due to tune, form, and "Hoodah" or "Doodah" chorus, it has long been associated with Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races". C. F. Smith claims this shanty came after the minstrel ditty, it is very curious that a new set of words should have been fitted to the chorus of "Camptown Races", while it was still a new song. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 107, 108). Sacramento A As I wuz rollin' down the strand, - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah! I met two fairies hand in hand, - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day! - Blow, boys, blow! - For Californ-eye-O! - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told, - On the banks o' the Sacramento *2* I chose the one with the curly locks, She let me chase her o'er the rocks, *3* I chased her high, I chased her low, I fell down an' broke me toe. *4* Off to the doctor I did go, An' I showed him my big toe. *5* In came the doctor with a bloomin' big lance, 'Now, young sailor, I'll make you dance!' *6* In came the nurse with a mustard poultice, Banged it on, but I took no notice. *7* Now I'm well and free from pain, I'll never court flash gals again. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Feb 21 - 08:18 AM Hi Shogun Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself? Fascinating conversation between you and Gibb. First verse of 'Sacramento A' has an important error. Your 'fairles' are 'fairies', which is of great interest to me as I'm interested in the history of the Port of Goole where many German ships docked (still do). The local girls of the night are called locally 'dock fairies'. There is a TV programme on Youtube from the 70s 'Gosling's Travels' that interviews some of the fairies on how the German seamen are much more generous than the locals. Coincidentally I also sing a recently written song by a friend of mine about the girls of the Reaperbahn in Hamburg, the St Pauli Girls. Great song. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 19 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM Steve Gardham Yes, you absolutely right about the word 'fairles', It happens because of two of the things: One - is because I probably not understand 100 % of nautical terminology, and tars vocabulary (but I do try hard to do so). Second - The first verses of songs in "Shanties From the Seven Seas", are written under music notation, in kind of the 'Handwriting fashion', and letters are really small, so I just misread, I checked it again with a magnifying glass, and it confirmed, you right. I will try to ask the admin to change it for me. I will be really happy if I could add this "fairies" story to my YT Description, it could be great if I can quote your name. About the conversation between Me and Gibb Sahib, Gibb is the person who is one of my mentors, in fact, He doesn't know about it, but His recording of Stan Hugill book, and gives a billion lines of really knowledgeable pieces of information about shanties, and maritime folk. Even more because now also I have a chance to read his book: "Boxing the Compass" (not finished yet, but already can say is a great source of knowledge), which gives a more formal way for me to deep diving into shanties and maritime knowledge. It is really great news is that He look at my thread, and already pointed out some great details about the "Dialects" of German shanties. A bit about myself: I love the shanties and forebitters, but my love for shanties comes from my general interest in music. My first Interest was a protest and freedom songs of Polish Bard Jacek Kaczmarski, was the time when between the civilized world and my country it was an Iron Curtain, and songs from "West" we could listen only in Radio "Free Europe", what transmitted from London (as far as I remember), in those times I took the classic guitar to my hands, and with happiness, I used it till now. The music from the west also was smuggling in the luggage of those lucky people who could travel to "West Countries". I remember it was two types of passports, one for countries of the Warsaw Pact (this one was possible to achieve), and an unlimited one (this one can have very few people). So I played on a guitar till my sailing start, around 1990ish, from this time I play and sing sailor songs, sea songs, and everything that was on Polish sailor songbooks. The true attention and happiness to real understand shanties is about maybe 2-3 years, this time I try to use a really right academic approach, and more. I try to get all the most important books to read about shanties as close original as possible. My hunting also includes getting all possible original records of Stan Hugill, because I believe, his one song is worth a thousand books. Before every my record I try to imagine work, with this particular shanty, so this is the reason, for crazy movements on some of my records. For example, when I singing capstan shanty, I physically push the desk towards the wall, due to lack of capstan. Since some times when I realized is that guitar doesn't really been an instrument used on boards of the merchant ships, so I start playing in a concertina. My mentors apart from Gibb, but this time I have contact with them are Marek Szurawski, Simon Spalding, and Jim Mageean, those three great shantymen are so kind to help me a lot on my research. My last activity to get closer to recreate the original shanty in an authentic way is "Erie Maritime Museum and Brig Niagara Online Sail Training Course", to understand better, work on board, and also get a better understanding of vocabulary. I hope Steve Gardham will be enough about myself but feel free to ask further questions, and of course, I will be really happy if Gibb Sahib and other mudcat members will be keen to help me achieve my ultimate goal, which is: get back to shanty to people in the way they sound on the greatest time. NOTE! - my 'fairles' mistake was corrected by the admin, thanks really for this. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Reinhard Date: 20 Feb 21 - 07:35 AM It's Reeperbahn in Hamburg, Steve, with two e. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 21 - 01:33 PM Hi Reinhard. Yes, I should have checked but we pronounce it 'Raperbahn' anyway. What would be the Hamborger Platt pronunciation? You can use freely anything I post, Shogun. I presume you have a copy of Stan's 'The Bosun's Locker' and a great companion to 'Shanties from the Seven Seas'. Gibb is also my first port of call if I want to know about chanty history. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Lighter Date: 20 Feb 21 - 01:42 PM "Fairy" was also late 19th century U.S. slang for a young woman. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 21 Feb 21 - 01:42 AM >What would be the Hamborger Platt pronunciation? "Raperbahn" as you said. When I went there, as soon as I emerged from the underground, one of the "fairies" had grabbed my arm and was trying to pull me somewhere. They'll block your path and you literally have to push them out of the way if you want to make progress down the street. (That is, if you visit as a lone gentleman.) Then there's the one alley, with barricades at each end, that non-working women are forbidden to enter. I understood that many were Polish, incidentally. By dawn, I had figured out how to sort of stand so nonchalantly that I wasn't propositioned anymore! I believe there was one bar, quite close, called "De Hamborger Veermaster." I listened to a German guy tell me a LONG story in one of the bars, only nodding and smiling as I could guess it was time to nod and smile. He finally ended his spiel and asked, "Right?" I said "Sorry, I don't speak German." He was a little angry! It was an unusual experience for me because I'm used to traveling places where I look different than most of the population, but there they could assume I was local and people kept saying things to me that I could barely understand -- though Platt, like Dutch, is one of the closest languages to English. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 21 Feb 21 - 03:37 AM Steve Gardham Yes, I do have a copy of Stan's 'The Bosun's Locker', and thanks for permission, the description now is updated, here current description: "This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". The origin of this shanty has many controversies. Due to tune, form, and "Hoodah" or "Doodah" chorus, it has long been associated with Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races". C. F. Smith claims this shanty came after the minstrel ditty, it is very curious that a new set of words should have been fitted to the chorus of "Camptown Races", while it was still a new song. The 'fairies', which is of great interest to me as I'm interested in the history of the Port of Goole where many German ships docked (still do). The local girls of the night are called locally 'dock fairies'. There is a TV program on Youtube from the 70s 'Gosling's Travels' that interviews some of the fairies on how the German seamen are much more generous than the locals (thanks to Steve Gardham from "The Mudcat Caffe" forum, for the explanation and story of the 'fairies' word). "Fairy" was also late 19th century U.S. slang for a young woman. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 107, 108)." Lighter Thanks for the story, it is great to know this kind of slang bit, so it can be useful for understanding American chanteys. Gibb Sahib This is a great story, very intriguing to me is that you visited Germany and when it was if I can ask? Also, you pointed out quite an intriguing point in "The Boxing Compass" about the origin of chanteys at all. Very intriguing to Me is the question, where you get access to "Atlantic Monthly"(1858), "Oberlin Students Monthly"(1858), and "Riverside Magazine"(1868)? |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 23 Feb 21 - 08:14 AM 065 - Sacramento (B) This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". Sacramento came into been aboard the great ships of those times "Sea Witch", "Flying Cloud", "Romance of the Seas", and so on, at the time of California Gold Rush (1849). At the same time was published almost exact same song Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races", which was first is hard to say. Did foster copy his song from shanty? Colcord definitely states that this shanty is "slaver minstrel' song "Camptown Races". Terry, although he doesn't say so outright, seems to think that the shanty came first. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 108). Sacramento B Oh, as I was walkin' down the street - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah! A charmin' gal I chanet to meet. - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day! - Blow, boys, blow! - For Californ-eye-O! - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told, - On the banks o' the Sacramento *2* The gal was fair an sweet to view, Her hair so brown an' her eyes so blue *3* I raised me hat an' said 'How do?', Sez she, 'Quite well, no thanks to you' *4* I asked her if she take a trip A-down the docks to see my ship *5* She quickly answered, 'Oh, dear, no. I tank you but I cannot go. *6* 'My love is young, my love is true, I wouldn't leave my love for you'. *7* So quickly then I strode away, I'd not another word to say *8* An' as I bade this gal adieu, I said that gals like her were few. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 25 Feb 21 - 03:00 AM 066 - Sacramento (C) This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". This version the Cape Horn one is the most popular one. Stan Hugill thing this version was the original one, and it can be sung to either tune or to a mixture of both tunes, depending on the number of syllables in the verses. This version I will try to recreate is capstan, and I heard it on Stan Hugill's album - „Sailing Days” (1991). Last note, this song was recorded two years ago and at the time I record it I didn't have as much knowledge about shanties as I have now so pronunciation can be not perfect. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 109). Sacramento C Oh around Cape Horn we are bound for to go - To me Hoo-dah! To me Hoo-dah! Around Cape Horn through the sleet an' the snow, - To me Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day! - Blow, boys, blow! - For Californ-eye-O! - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told, - On the banks of the Sacramento! *2* Oh around the Horn with a mainskys'l set, Around Cape Horn an' we're all wringin' wet. *3* Oh, around the Horn in the month o' May, Oh, around the Horn is a very long way. *4* Them Dago gals we do adore, They all drink vino an' ask for more. *5* Them Spanish gals ain't got no combs, They comb their locks with tunny-fish bones. *6* To the Sacramento we're bound away, To the Sacramento's hell o' a way. *7* We're the buckos for to make 'er go, All the way to the Sacramento. *8* We're the bullies for to kick her through, Roll down the hill with a hullabaloo, *9* Starvation an' ease in a Yankee ship, We're the bullies for to make 'er rip. *10* Santander Jim is a mate from hell, With fists o' iron an' feet as well. *11* Breast yer bars an' bend yer back, Have an' make yer spare ribs crack. *12* Round the Horn an' up to the Line, We're the bullies for to make 'er shine *13* We'll crack it on, on a big skiyoot, Ol' Bully Jim is a bloody big brute. *14* Oh, a bully ship wid a bully crew, But the mate is a bastard through an' through. *15* Ninety days to 'Frisco Bay, Ninety days is damn good pay. *16* Oh, them wuz the days of the good ol' times, Back in the days of the Forty-nine. *17* Sing an' have an' heave an' sing, Heave an' make them handspikes spring. *18* An' I wish to Gold I'd niver bin born, To go a-ramblin' round Cape Horn. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:51 AM That's some long anchor chain/cable on that last one!:-) I don't believe I've seen any evidence that Foster took any of his material from pre-existing songs. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:09 PM Steve Gardham 18 verses for anchor heave is not much, to be honest, I talk with some experienced people, about the matter of heaving anchor. So Jim Mageean, Marek Szurawski, and Simon Spalding, and the conclusion were, the standard heave on a merchant ship was between 30 minutes up to one hour. This conclusion is kind of confirmed by Stan Hugill in his book, on page 94 first edition of "Shanties From the Seven Seas", in the description of the: "Opsang For Brasiliefareren, Bryggen Preciosa" capstan shanty, which have 54 verses, and I been proud to sing this shanty in full. Stan Hugill says: "In Opsang can be found the other forty-three verses he wrote - quite enough to finish a long heave!". To sang this shanty, it took me around 33 minutes. But I'm not sure if the tempo wasn't too fast. And in yesterday's conversation with Simon Spalding, reveal another not discussed never fact about the tempo of the shanties, especially anchor-capstan ones. Namely, I'm talking about, the people in nowadays try to do presentations on traditional sailing ships, but I think they do not take as a factor much much smaller crews, also much much bigger ships. Just imagine the difference to heave anchor on Joseph Conrad (Mystic Seaport Museum) with 20 people of the crew, and compare it to heave on Sedov or Krusenstern, with not sure much probably fewer people. In this case, the tempo drops drastically, also we have to add for example fact that half of the crew was "Shanghaied", others have a hangover from last night's Sailor Town parties. What he really needs help with is whether anyone in our forum knows is that exists some books contain information such as the number of crew, officers, and so on, in certain merchant ships. I dug only one value from a book about german ships, and was informed about the crew on Flying P-Liner "Preussen" has 17-23 crew members. About evidence of the Foster materials, well, I do not know more about him than Stan Hugill gives to us. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:02 PM Villiers' books contain a lot of that type of information but they are referring to post 1900. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Gibb Sahib Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:02 AM This might be clear already, but this "Cape Horn version" doesn't represent a song that was ever sung as such. Hugill has, I think, just thrown together miscellaneous verses, some that seem to pertain to a "Cape Horn - Gold Rush" theme and others that are floaters. Hugill may have heard someone sing several of these verses together in a single performance, but it's most likely he has created a composite based on verses he heard (or READ) from various sources. He may even have put some of his own verses in at the very time of writing. It only appears as a "version" because of how he has grouped it within other phenomena. On one side: Evidently he noticed that more than one (we hope) person who sang "Sacramento" started off with the "As I was walking down the strand..." idea (Davis and Tozer was one source for this), and then would continue that bawdy theme in a narrative fashion. On the other side: He notes that some people basically sang the words to "De Camptown Ladies." In between these is just "Sacramento," a chanty that has no set lyrics (aside from the chorus) and which can include ideas from wherever. Hugill decided, I think, that since the California Gold Rush was contemporary, he'd "file" verses on that theme under the heading of a "version." I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties. The verses offered in various sources tend to be common or nondescript lines or floaters, e.g. Oh the Shanghai race is ten miles long The Shanghai race is ten miles long In the Black Ball Line I served my time, ? In the Black Ball Line I served my time, We're bound for California I heard the old man say; We're bound for California this very good day. New York City is on fire New York City is on fire A bully ship and a bully crew, A bully mate, and a captain, too, Went to the river and I couldn't get across As I was a walking down Liverpool street As I was out upon the road one day, Says I, “Old man, your horse is lame,” (floater from "Poor Old Man") Oh, heave, my lads, oh heave and sing, Oh, heave and make them oak sticks spring, My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM 'I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties.' ???? Me too |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:13 AM Gibb Sahib I'm very interested in, what evidence you used to create a theory about Stan Hugill's "Cape Horn" version of Sacramento. I do not know any evidence to prove is that this version of "Sacramento" is fake. Even more than this, he explicitly says: "The most popular version was the Cape Horn one. It was probably the original one..." "He may even have put some of his own verses" - Well, I don't want to use argument what you mentioned in your book "If Hugill says is good enough to me", but Stan Hugill was a shantyman in a real shanty environment, and if he sang extra verse or two, they became a shanty verse. So now is the question is, isn't this way shanty been created? So yes, this is the advantage of Stan Hugill, namely if He invents some verse or shanty, as a shantyman, it automatically becomes shanty as soon as first time been used for work. Of course, we can dispute about did he do this compilation of the verses after, when he did not sail already, but this is pointless unless we have evidence. But now we have an additional question, is that the "Cape Horn" theme, been unusual for this shanty? I did research on My library, and I get interesting findings. What I found is that the "Cape Horn" theme appears only in American Collectors: Colcord, Harlow, and Doerflinger, in English Collectors: Ferris and Tozer, Smith, Sharp and in their books theme not exist, exception is Stan Hugill. If anyone wants to analyze those "Cape Horn" theme mentioned collectors, here I retyped them down: "Cape Horn" related versions of Sacramento: 1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938) A bully ship and a bully crew, - Doo-da, Doo-da! A bully mate and a captain too, - Doo-da, Doo-da-day! - Then blow, ye winds, Hi-oh, - For Californy O! - There's plenty of gold, so I've been told, - on the banks of Sacramento! *2* Round Cape Horn in the month of May, Round Cape Horn in the month of May *3* We came to a land where the cocktail flows, We came to a land where the cocktail flows *4* Came to a river and I couldn't get across, Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss 2. J. C. Colcord "Roll And Go" (1924) - same as in "Songs of American Sailormen" 3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928) Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long. - To me hoodah! To me hoodah! Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long. - To me hoodah! hoodah day! - Then it's blow, my buly boys, blow, - for Californio, - There's plenty of gold so I've been told - on the banks of Sacramento. *2* A bully ship and a bully crew, A bully mate and a skipper too. *3* Oh, New York's race track, where we stood, We bet on all they said was good. *4* Our watch, our shoes and every rag, But lost our money on a bob-tail nag. *5* Our money all gone we shipped to go Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow. *6* We're bound for Californi-o; For gold and banks of sacramento. 4. F. P. Harlow "Chanteying aboard American Ships" (1962) - same as in "The Making Of A Sailor" 5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951) It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine, - With me hoodah, and me hoodah, It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine, - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay! - Blow, boys, blow, - for Californi-aj! Ah, - there is lots of gold, oh, so I've been told, - Upon the banks of the Sacramento *2* Were Going around the Horn and home again! Were Going around the Horn and home again! *3* We sailed away one day in May, And when we came out into the Bay, *4* We got into Bay and then did sail! We got into Bay and then did sail! *5* Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail *6* Now we came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail, We came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail, *7* We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind, We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind *8* Now, when our sail were full on every stay, With our old sails and every stay, *9* She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose! She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose! *10* Now, our royals one day we took them in, Our royals one day we took them in *11* Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow, Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow *12* We climbed for days and we climbed for a week! We climbed for days and we climbed for a week! About the use word "Version", well is just a word that represents a description of the singular unit, which Stan Hugill decides to mention as something that existed stand alone. I don't want to change it, but if you want, I can use the word: variation, option. Stan Hugill uses the word "Version", and I try to recreate songs from his book, so sensible to me is use it. About: "My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs." I used the phrase: "Stan Hugill thing, this version was the original one" so I think is, neutral enough. In all descriptions of my recreations, I try to put as much as possible of Stan Hugill and none myself as much as possible. Steve Gardham "'I'm really skeptical of calling anything a "version" in chanties.' ???? Me too" I do understand this point of view. I think you cannot say it was a freeze "version" of the particular shanty, and nobody never added or took off from it because is prohibited. I think shanty have in their nature the flexibility to be changed by the shantymen, length of verses, add some unique verse, about the ship, He sails currently, and so on. But I think is not a good idea to go to extreme relativism, and say melody same so this is the same song. I thig the moment when we can say this is a different "version", is when theme and motive are simply different, for example, the "Milkmaid" version and "Camptown Race", version. With all respect to Gibb Sahib who was right to say, there are exist some "generic" verses. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM 67 - Sacramento (D) This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". This is the "Camptown Races" version. "Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 110, 111). Sacramento D Camptown ladies sing this song, - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah! Camptown race-track's five miles long. - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day! - Blow, boys, blow! - For Californ-eye-O! - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told, - On the banks o' the Sacramento *2* Go down dar wid me hat caved in, Come back home with me pockets full o' tin. *3* De long-tailed filly an' de big black hoss, Dey fly de track an' dey both cut ac ross. *4* De blind hoss stickin' in a big mud hole, Can't touch bottom wid a ten-foot pole. *5* Ol' muley cow come out on de track, De bob he fling her ober his back. *6* Den fly along like a raiload car, Runnin' a race wid a shootin' star. *7* De sorrel hoss he's got a cough, An' his rider's drunk in de ol' hay-loft. *8* Dere's fourteen hosses in dis race, Ah'm snug in de saddle an' got a good brace. *9* De bobtail hoss she cain't be beat, Runnin' around in a two-mile heat. *10* Ah put me money on de bob-tail nag, Somebody bet on de one-eyed lag. *11* I win me money on de bobtail nag, An' carry it home in de ol' tow-bag. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Feb 21 - 12:18 PM Hi Shogun Sacramento D. This is absolutely the pseudo lingo of the Minstrels, not African-American as such, although I would like an African American to pronounce on that. Why would a chantyman be singing in this sort of stage language is a question we need to ask, even latter-day around the capstan. Another point to notice is that the verses are in Minstrel lingo but the chorus isn't..no 'On de banks ob de Sacramento'. Yes, at one point Stan was a latter-day chantyman, but he was also a writer, performer, historian, collector, lecturer, etc. He was also around at the time of Bert Lloyd when rewriting history was the norm. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Shogun Date: 26 Feb 21 - 02:39 PM Steve Gardham This is a very fair point, and of course, again something that I will even never notice, I will never notice differences and catches this Pseudo Minstrels, not African-American. Maybe we can find somebody who knows more about it, this is so intriguing. About rewrite history, well this probably happens as well, but if there is no evidence, what we can do? And lastly, my aim is to get to the recreation of authentic shanties, as close to original as possible to me, so really the nice will be, to have representant of each language and dialect, what possible in songs are written in "Shanties From the Seven Seas". And I am so happy to have You and Gibb and hope other members dive into the case as deep as I can. |
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Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun' From: Lighter Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:49 PM Steve, if that's how they sang it, it's because that's Stephen Foster wrote it! https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/067/015 |
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