Thought for the Day (Jan 10)

Subject: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 10:34 AM

Scientists have some fun. A friend is planning an "anatomically correct" painting of an angel, and phones me long distance concerning how the wings would be attached if the angel had the weight of a human being. This precipitates a coffee meeting with an bug person (entomologist), a bird person (an ornithologist), a fine artist, and an ecologist/Mudcatter. Everyone is agreed that an angel, as traditionally portrayed, is officially an insect (6 appendages), and that the wing attachments in all paintings are absurd -- they would immediately snap off. There are essentially two solutions: the chitinous approach of flying insects (full outer body shell), and the bird approach, which would require immense chest and back muscles and something like a 20 foot wingspan. We report back to the other artist. She decides to re-etherialize the angel. But I for one am still captivated by the thought of a big muscled angel streaking down on vast wings. It's the hard nosed scientist in me, I guess.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 10:42 AM

I always thought that angels fly because they take themselves lightly!

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 10:52 AM

"Man will begin to recover the moment he takes art as seriously as physics, chemistry or money" Ernst Levy

According to scientific studies Bee's should not be able to fly, therefore I humbly submit that an anatomically correct Angel would belittle the actual, and defy the myth. Yours, (in science) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: annamill
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 10:59 AM

Hulk Hogan with wings?? No, he would probably need a 40ft wing span.

How lucky you are to spend time around such creative minds. It reminds me of another time when I was younger and without direction and lived in Greenwich Village. NY. Ideas, creative thoughts abounded. You make me miss this. I think, Peter, that this academic environment will keep your mind young.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:03 AM

And I thought anatomically correct meant boy or girl.... Gee do I need to go and wash my mind out!!!

We have an anatomically correct baby boy doll, for my daughter. She uses it to carry him around by as he has no hair..... All gentlemen, please uncross your legs.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:07 AM

"Man will begin to recover the moment he takes art as seriously as physics, chemistry or money" Ernst Levy You probably would find it's creation to be like the VU22 Osprey, a tilt rotor fixed wing aircraft that has all the quality of an aeroplane and helicopter combined, but looks really odd. (perfect for search and rescue though) According to scientific studies, Bee's should not be able to fly; therefore I humbly submit that an anatomically correct Angel, would belittle the actual, and defy the myth. Yours, (in science) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:40 AM

I thought John Travolta did a pretty good job of filling the bill (no pun intended) in his title role of Michael.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Penny S. (nitpicking)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM

Many insects have six legs, plus wings either two or four. This makes seraphim possibly insects, but not the traditional two arms, two legs, two wings type.

Penny

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: annamill
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:05 PM

One of my very favorite movies, Kat! I loved when he danced to "Chain of Fools". "Chain, Chain, Chain.." I certainly would have followed him. Sometimes I put just that part of the movie just to dance with him. Only when I'm alone of course....

Love, annap

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

I like to think of angels like Nicholas Cage in "City of Angels" Feathers and things would get in the way.
Patrish

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Tony Burns
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:23 PM

I'll join Penny S in the nitpicking of six appendages making an insect. I always thought it was 6 legs. I'll let you away with counting arms as legs but not the wings. Websters Online seems to agree. Here's the part of their definition that refers to the appendages.

"any of a class (Insecta) of arthropods (as bugs or bees) with well-defined head, thorax, and abdomen, only three pairs of legs, and typically one or two pairs of wings"

Still, it sounds like it was an interesting discussion. Wish I had been a fly on the wall.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:35 PM

I'll bug the entomologist about it. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:36 PM

Of course if they're that highly evolved they could teleport/astral travel and not even need the wings, so they would probably be for the benefit of our pea-brains....trappings of magical illusions ala Hollywood.

Yeah, annap, I could dance the night away with the likes of John! The man's got the moves.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Bert
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 01:01 PM

Dave, you old sea dog you,

you said "According to scientific studies Bee's should not be able to fly". Unfortunately this statement is based upon outdated information. It comes from an early study which determined that the time taken for the signal to travel from the bee's brain to it's wing muscles would be too long to beat the wings fast enough. However, it is now known that bees have fibrillating muscles. Which means that our bumble bee only has to send the signals "start beating" and "stop beating". Once the wings start beating they continue doing so without further input from the brain.

Just thought you'd be delighted to know that now bees 'can' fly ;-)

Regarding the wing size for man sized creature to fly, I was involved one time in designing an ornithopter.
The wing span needed was about 30 feet and the chord was about 6 feet. The hinge for the wing was about 30 inches long.

Bertthebigknowitall

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:04 PM

OK, how's this: we give the angel huge bulging chest and back muscles and skinny little legs and arms. Additionally, he gets hollow bones, that, instead of calcium, consist largely of "etherium," which is very light but strong. Now add bee's wings. Or we could have a bat-style angel, but we'd have to forget about all the folklore associating bats with evil.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:06 PM

How about the gossamer wings of a dragonfly; then it could have long legs?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From:
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:18 PM

How about a hang-gliding angel?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:42 PM

Thank you Bert, I am delighted to know that conventional science has finally caught up to what the Bee's and I have always known. Wish we could get our government to buy Osprey's though. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:54 PM

Ahh but if they move by "mental" powers would they have to have really big heads? I guess following this that Pegasus was also an insect. What kind of spiders would be needed to catch them? "Oh what a tangled web......"

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 03:48 PM

1) As I understood it, the origianl calculation about bees not being able to fly was considering them as a fixed-wing machine and looking at the body in an air tunnel, which correctly predicts that a bee without wings in motion has little or no lift. I never heard the part about the brain not being able to send the "beat" signal often enough.
2) The science fiction writers have beaten you to it-- Robert A. Heinlein in "Jerry Was a Man" (about 1948!) discusses the problems which a very rich man encountered when he wanted a flying horse as a polo pony. (And many other problems too-- the story is one of the best arguments against racial prejudice I have ever read, and I count myself lucky to have read it while I was still under ten and those attitudes flexible!)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 04:39 PM

That post at 2.18pm was mine and it wasn't meant to be anonynous. I'm just saying that because I detest the practice of anonymous posting, and I've just noticed I'd done this one by mistake.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Bert
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 04:53 PM

Pete,

I hadn't heard that version, I suppose that both theories are true. I got my info from a booklet about animal flight published by some English University, unfortunately CRS has kicked in about the which one. And I 'lent' the book to someone years ago. I don't lend books any more, I figured I might just as well give them away - seeing as it amounts to the same thing.
I'll have to get me a copy of "Jerry was a Man". I love Heinlein, but haven't read that one. (Got a copy you could 'lend' me?);-)

Bert.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:03 PM

Bert said:

"I'll have to get me a copy of "Jerry was a Man". I love Heinlein, but haven't read that one. (Got a copy you could 'lend' me?);-)"

If I remember correctly, it was the last story in the novella/short story collection, "Assignment in Eternity" - which Baen Books is republishing come April, according to their website.

Peter

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 06:00 AM

If insects have a head, thorax, abdomen and 6 legs, with or without wings, then Disney has done it again, because every single ant in 'A Bugs Life' has only two pairs of legs...... And the lower pair of legs are attached to the abdomen, something that doesn't happen in the insect world, does it?

LTS, confused and remembering the only biology lesson that interested her.....

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: skipjack
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 07:24 AM

Thread creep warning, even if this thread has passed it's sell-by date.

I heard an amusing description of technology t'other day.

"Technology is the name we give stuff we've got, that doesn't work yet"

Skipjack

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day (Jan 10)
From: Owlkat
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:26 AM

Hi hi,
Everybody knows that Angels, being enlightened, are ultra-light to start with, and only need the wings to gently or speedily propel them around.How else can they do all that dancing on the heads of pins? Agnostically
Owl/Mart