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BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers
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Subject: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 11 Feb 21 - 08:32 AM Gold medal PC drivel and nonsense!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Feb 21 - 08:44 AM She/her/mother? He/him/birthing parent? I don't think J.K. Rowling is opposed to how people choose to conduct their lives, I think she's tired of all of the extra stuff that is added onto simple introductions. There's a lot to keep track of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Feb 21 - 09:16 AM I recently read an obit for a trans musician which was very confusing; because the writer in a clumsy effort to conform to unforgiving trans new-speak could not settle on either "she" or "they" - so randomly used both. While in the same obit also writing "they" to refer to other folks in plural. The end result was a near unreadable unnecessarily confused mess... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mo the caller Date: 11 Feb 21 - 09:18 AM Sounds as if they are changing official documents to avoid making assumptions. I suppose language between people who know each other will reflect personal preference - anything else is impolite. I hope that with people we don't know we are allowed to make mistakes, but people working in an official setting like a hospital need to be aware and quick to pick up preferences so good that policy makes this easier. Language takes a while to catch up with social change. Wife / husband assumes a wedding partner doesn't. But some of us were brought up when marriage was the norm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 11 Feb 21 - 09:30 AM The idea of "chestfeeding" makes me think of those tales of pelicans feeding their offspring on blood drawn from the mother's chest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM Bovine milk for cow's milk then? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 12 Feb 21 - 04:12 AM Of course Brighton is a hotbed of every wierdo imaginable, and nobody has the right to not be offended!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Thompson Date: 12 Feb 21 - 04:34 AM It's nearly always possible to recast a sentence to make a pronoun unnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 04:44 AM Haven't been there for 35 years. Too much pebble and not enough sand as I recall. There was a damned fine chippy at the Seven Dials roundabout. Wonder if it's still there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 04:47 AM Ach, we're being informal. Getting Bonzo for his grammar is a bit like getting Al Capone for tax evasion! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 12 Feb 21 - 06:37 AM I think Thompson was referring to the Brighton Hospital's problem with avoiding the he/she/they-her/him/them dilemma. Bonzo's grammar was perfect in expressing what he was saying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 12 Feb 21 - 09:41 AM That's what I thought! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 10:04 AM Ah, I think I got that wrong. I thought Thompson was referring to Bonzo's use of "nobody." Apologies,Thompson. :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM "They" being used as a singular individual of undisclosed or transgender does probably distress the grammar checker in word processing programs as far as verbs agreeing with the pronoun. There is also the term "one" as in "when one hasn't made up their mind" it simply implies a person, and is a rather formal use, but it would work. In a current world of "cancel culture" it seems impossible to have a conversation among those in the targeted gender of those who feel they were born in the wrong body. The result of a transformation is often a very formal look or an exaggerated look. How do the original occupants of that gender (Cis gender) feel about it? Well, that's wrong - because the pushback is immense from some parts of our societies. Violent, abusive, lacking understanding. But from those who don't care that individuals want to change genders but just wish the results weren't so flamboyant, or such a caricature of what it actually means to be a member of that group. Those people haven't been heard from (though they are relieved at not having to navigate those choppy waters). I'm writing this with a mind to the trans friends who might read it, would they understand what I'm trying to say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 10:54 AM "They" as a singular pronoun has been in use for seven hundred years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 12 Feb 21 - 11:04 AM If you use "when one hasn't made up their mind", it sounds as if "one" hasn't made up another person's mind for them. Do you mean "when one hasn't made up one's mind"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Feb 21 - 11:25 AM You illustrate the problem right there. Either is correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 12 Feb 21 - 11:38 AM The main problem is one of language. Otherwise, I try not to mind other people's business, and prefer to just respect them as people. As beings. People who DO butt into other people's lives and tell them how to conduct their lives are, at my most polite, busybodies. I loved Harry Potter, but Rowling's anti-trans crusade has made me see her in a whole new light, and I don't like it. If you care that much about other people's business, people you don't know and will never meet, there's something wrong with you. And why isn't it simply "breast milk"? And before anyone objects to "breast", explain how men can have breast cancer. Or just fergetaboutit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Feb 21 - 12:12 PM There is an over-vociferous minority of militant trans activists who are basically just attention seeking fanatical hostile control freaks.. Who are a liability for positive trans community acceptance, and coexistence with wider society; playing right into the hands of anti-trans right wing groups and media.. Every progressive movement is lumbered with a publicity monopolising unhinged lunatic fringe, by which all other members are judged and tainted by association... btw.. obviously 'imho'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 12:26 PM I agree with all that (though I've never dabbled in the dizzy literary heights of Harry Potter). I'd go further to say that I object to people who express these sentiments who then go on to say that we should "practise tolerance" or similar. To tolerate is uncomfortably close to "to put up with." Difference, diversity, variety, individuality, all attributes of humanity that we should want to celebrate, not tolerate. My old mum used to say that people with tattoos should be thrown in jail... When it comes to "one" as a pronoun, it can seem a bit stiff and formal: "One's dentist should tell one of the best way to use one's toothpaste with one's electric toothbrush." Or: "Your dentist should tell you of the best way to use your toothpaste with your electric toothbrush." One sounds distinctly awkward and the other sounds a bit too direct (I've been accused of using "you" in that manner too personally when I hadn't I intended it, especially by Americans). The answer, as ever, is to rethink the sentence from scratch rather than hanging on for dear life to your beloved literary mini-creation... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 12:44 PM You're not wrong, pfr, as long as right-minded people are just as vigilant in recognising that it is a "fringe..." Sometimes it takes evolution of acceptance and attitude. I'll bare my soul here and openly admit that Peter Tatchell seemed a complete twat to me, harming the cause, when he first emerged. Took me a while to see that his was the way to get things done, and he seems like a very moderate sort of chap these days, relatively speaking, in spite of his mistakes and some actions that looked like stunts. Being quiet about injustices in the face of establishment opposition and hypocrisy was not, to him, an option. We have to be a bit careful to correctly distinguish the true lunatic fringe from brave, risk-taking pioneers of causes,and there can be overlaps... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 12 Feb 21 - 01:00 PM One (or you) wouldn't need to use "one" so many times in - "One's dentist should tell one of the best way to use one's toothpaste with one's electric toothbrush." A more sensible version could be: "One's dentist should tell one of the best way to use toothpaste with an electric toothbrush." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Feb 21 - 01:15 PM I'm not ready to throw Rowlings under the bus. She gives a lot of thought to things she says and supports, and I agree with her - there is an insular form of social media communication these days that I think tends to convince many young people that the answer to their current discomfort is to jump on that bandwagon and choose to transition. This is, to a certain degree, a fad. Yes, it is. There will always be people who really do need to make a transition, but there are also a lot of people going through developmental growth stages who will likely change their minds later, given the opportunity. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/09/24/jk-rowling-controversy-transgender-harry-potter-author-statements-women/ This month the Telegraph published a pre-publication review of the latest detective novel by Rowling (writing as Robert Galbraith), “Troubled Blood,” that said the book’s moral seems to be “never trust a man in a dress.” Given that Rowling has suggested that some men may legally change their gender to prey on women, outrage followed. https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy
From Rowling's statement essay: I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Feb 21 - 06:53 PM The trouble with Rowling is that she feels rather entitled. Always suspect the celeb who sounds off about issues that are completely unrelated to the reason they're a celeb at all. As in her case. As with Charlieboy rattling on about homeopathy. As with Morrisey and his "meat is murder." Never sayin' they are wrong, never sayin' they shouldn't have a voice, etc. just sayin' that they (a) know no more than you and me, (b) they might be twats.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Feb 21 - 11:17 PM So what? She has opinions and explains herself and of course she should have a voice. The things you compare her opinion to are unrelated to the topic at hand. A measured response with a detailed answer doesn't seem to interest many people and doesn't fit in a Twitter post. Too bad. She resists being cancelled. Good for her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 01:39 AM The most obnoxious trans militants are steadfastly alienating support from 'ordinary' society; and also determined to make enemies of many sympathetic liberal progressives who are genuinely wanting to be supportive... Guess which kinds of trans activists are most likely to be show cased and given enough rope on mainstream media...??? So far I've only seen one moderate trans spokesperson who was given sufficient TV time to express dismay at the intolerant 'anti-cis' antics of the loudest loose cannon trans fanatics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:49 AM "So what? She has opinions and explains herself and of course she should have a voice." And what did I just say in that post? So nothing. I am saying that non-expert celebs who sound off about things unrelated to the reason for their celebrity should perhaps be viewed through a lens of scepticism. That's all. Not exactly attacking her right to free speech, was I! Exercising my right to free speech, with an audience of about six (in contrast with the large numbers who she is able to reach via her celebrity - as an author of children's books, lest we forget), my opinion of the piece from her that you quoted is that it carries more than a whiff of intolerance and patronising... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:00 AM I would have thought trans people should be shown love . I find it difficult to understand , but if i had a child that was trans i would hope that i would show them love and affection., the same as a non trans child. what is the point of this thread other than to troll. i never buy the daily mail it was a newspaper that supported fascism in the 1930s and seems to rely on sensational articles like this to sell its divisive muckraking shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 13 Feb 21 - 08:20 AM It's nothing more than bowing to extremists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 13 Feb 21 - 09:17 AM Their constant yelping about a free press means, with a few honorable exceptions, freedom to peddle scandal, crime, sex, sensationalism, hate, innuendo and the political and financial uses of propaganda. A newspaper is a business out to make money through advertising revenue. That is predicated on the circulation and you know what circulation depends on. Raymond Chandler Increasingly, the picture of our society as rendered in our media is illusionary and delusionary: disfigured, unreal, out of touch with reality, disconnected from the true context of our life. It is disfigured by celebrity, by celebrity worship, by gossip, by sensationalism, by denial of our societies Carl Bernstein Sensationalism seems to sell more than wonderful-positive news. Michael Jackson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 13 Feb 21 - 09:36 AM I remember the Rowling tweet that necessitated the manifesto, but I can't find it now. It seemed to me that manifesto was meant to back-pedal a bit, because she got a huge backlash. General observation, and it pretty much goes for any subject: people read something, decide, without any doubt or leniency, which side they're on, and slam into it at 100 mph. Things are NEVER that one-sided. Nothing is, not the right or wrong of an issue, not black or white, not male or female, even. The "rulings" about language are stupid. They probably got made (if it's actually true) because people are too stupid or boorish, or whatever the right term is, to just be nice. I say this because of the apparent resentment some have to being expected to be nice. Obviously, some people need that, But they (if it's actually true) are stupid. How is anyone going to be able to identify the idiots if they speak like a nice person? For the record, women have breasts, and men have...breasts. Women breast feed because of hormones. If a person who was born male has those hormones, they can breast feed. Give breast milk. From THEIR BREASTS. So the article (if it's actually true) obviously didn't consult any of the medical people at that hospital. But, wait... it's the Daily Mail, right? Daniel Radcliffe's reply. and a brief explanation of the whole thing. This automatic slamming-to-the-extreme does get in the way of communicating. If someone focused on every obnoxious-to-them thing I say, that's all the conversation would be about. Nothing else would ever get through that filter. People/extremists being assholes, and people/extremists reacting to people being assholes. Knock it off and go have a beer, or talk about music or something. But, wait... it's the Internet, right? Peace, out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:24 AM Well I for one was not slamming into her at 100 mph (which is the sort of thing you do to some of us Brits at times, Jeri...). Suggesting that we should perhaps view the spoutings of someone going well beyond their own area of expertise through a lens of scepticism is not even remotely doing that. You wouldn't be damning me for saying that about journalists who put the news or comment into newspapers or on to the telly, would you, even though, arguably, they enjoy more expertise in their spoutings than Rowling does in hers in the matter to hand. Anyway, I've read the stuff you've posted, and, whilst acknowledging that she's rowed back somewhat from her earlier clumsy output, I think she's got herself into a bit of a mess. Maybe she should knock it off and go have a beer, or talk about music or something... But it's not hate speech or anything. It's a muddle, and free speech allows muddles, so it's all ok. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:56 AM Celebrities generally tend not to be the brightest of sparks; so it's no surprise if it seriously backfires into triggered mass backlash when they think they are being clever on social media... Gina Carano being the latest prime example of a celeb who does not have enough sense to know when to stop typing and posting... Serves her right...??? Though J. K. Rowling is probably a more intelligent and liberal celeb than Carano. Rowling has a much better justified position to argue back against a hostile fanatical minority.. This 'war' between feminists and trans activists is a godsend for right wing media like the mail, who can exploit this opportunity for fomenting divide and rule strife between two progressive movements... Reactionary media like the mail will gratuitously bash both feminists and trans at the same time; depicting them as 'extremist fascistic woke lefty academic cults' manipulating the law to impose their 'loony' demands and terms on 'normal' mass society... Voices of moderate feminists and trans who have much in common to agree on, just get ignored by the right wing media agenda to stamp down on any progressive movements in society... Again, IMHO.. .. and this all gets further complicated if we consider that a lot of feminists and trans are basically very right wing leaning self-centred arseholes.. But I'm not writing a degree essay, just filling in time between household chores... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 13 Feb 21 - 03:24 PM Talking and generalising Celebrities generally tend not to be the brightest of sparks; |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 03:42 PM Dick - ?????? Gotta admit I'm baffled by any point you're trying to make by quoting me...??? Unless you're standing up for celebrities, Challenging the merest hint that too many of them may be as thick as two short planks...??? Here's a big generalisation for you.. Folk singers.. ..far too intelligent to ever become famous celebrities...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Feb 21 - 03:43 PM Back to the OP issue: My initial reaction was, if nearly all of the people having babies are female, it is *reasonable* to assume that any given laboring individual is female. The few exceptions can correct that assumption if they wish to, right? And I thought that as a non-cis, nonbinary person. I am not offended if people assume I am the gender I look like, and I don't correct strangers. I *do* correct my kith, colleagues and kin, and the appropriate 3rd-person pronoun to refer to me in my presence is They... But... Then I remembered how annoying it was when everybody assumed I was xian, when I first moved to Virginia, and even more so with kids in public elementary schools. I have spent decades now trying to remind various authorities to remember that other religions, and atheism, also exist. I am pleased as punch when politicians, especially, refer to people of "all faiths and none" (Blair, after 9.11) or people of faith "and people of conviction" (Tim Kaine, on the campaign trail). So I have reversed my original reflex of Oh, come on. It really, really, when you are in a tiny minority, is *nice* to have your existence remembered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:00 PM there are some celeberties that are bright sparks. so stop talking generailsed nonsense 8 of the Smartest Celebrities in the World Mayim Bialik (b. December 12, 1975) Shaquille O'Neal (b. March 6, 1972) Ken Jeong (b. July 13, 1969) Gerard Butler (b. November 13, 1969) James Franco (b. April 19, 1978) Brian May (b. July 19, 1947) Greg Graffin (b. November 6, 1964) Christy Turlington (b. January 2, 1969) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:13 PM Mods - sorry.. but... Dick - So you searched all through my post looking for something to take exception to, and that is the best you could come up with...!!!??? "Celebrities generally tend not to be the brightest of sparks" Yes, a light hearted in context blatantly obvious generalisation,.. I admit it, you got me bang to rights guv... I'm very sorry celebrities.. Your white knight champion Dick has positive proof at least 8 of you are not all dim light bulb thickos... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:17 PM But it's funny how so many of you highly intelligent celebs constantly get into such career damaging trouble by posting very stupid statements on social media... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:18 PM What qualifies someone as being a "celebrity"? Is it someone most people respect, or at least know about? Sandman's list of eight celebrities includes only one that I have heard of. Maybe that is a sign of my ignorance. Or does it mean that I don't watch enough television or read enough magazines to be accepted as a member of society? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:38 PM Jos - that's a very crucial question... But all celebs have potential power and influence, for good or bad, on social media... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:39 PM not all pfr, nothing to do with you , more the principle of people making generalised statements, a lot of posters do it particularly below the line. particularly on the subject of brexit[ i do not include you on that one] jos you can be a member of society, and be unknowing of celebreties but celebration is not necessarily about appearing on television or magazines, these days it is also about the internet, because you have not heard of them it does not mean that they are not celebrities, how about looking them up and learning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:09 PM Dick - no problems, as long as we enjoy good humoured banter... I can walk in on my mrs watching some random celebrity panel TV show, and these days I haven't a clue who a lot of them are. But that's mainly because there's a new generation of celebs emerging from social media blogs and videos.. They already have mass influence on the internet, before TV headhunts them for celebrity showcase realty shows and light entertainment programs.. It's a fair guess that.. [generalisation alert].. that not too many of 'em are progressive liberals or lefties...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:11 PM .. though that guess might also be unfair...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:23 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There you go. The human race by gender. Mrrzy, your soubriquet begins with "Mr." I've assumed from that, 'til now, that you are a fella. There are occasions when I've had to refer to you as something. If I've got that wrong, I apologise, but do try to be clear as to how you would like to be addressed. As for me, call me whatever you like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Feb 21 - 06:23 PM Mrrzy does start with an m and an r but that is funny you would think that it starts with Mr.! I only had that happen once before, in a meetup thing, with a group I did a lot with. One party, someone turned to me and asked Who is this Mr. Arzy who always signs up and never shows? Mrrzy is just my name, pronounced like the river Mersey, or like myrrh+zee, or like mercy with a z. And when addressing me, one would use my name, or the pronouns You and Your, all gender-free. When *referring to me* in my presence, the name stays the same but the pronoun becomes They, Them, or Their. I think of it as plural, referring to my mind and body, which differ in gender. I must admit, though, when people do remember to say They when referring to me, I have a tendency to think Wait, me and who else? I only figured out not being cis about 5-6 years ago... I have some getting used to it to do. So I feel for the folks that have a hard time with They as a singular pronoun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 06:28 PM I'll try harder. I've been called Mr Arsey in my time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Doug Chadwick Date: 13 Feb 21 - 06:51 PM "Steve" begins with "St" but I don't think of you as a saint. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:09 PM Well you're DC but I don't regard you as being related to George Washington... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:20 PM ...In m'humble... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:40 PM PFR, it's just my opinion, but it's not worth it.s far. There are some things I just won't ever understand. Steve, she HAS dialed it back, and a as I've seen, has mostly avoided talking about it. I guess it was likely the smart thing to do. I don't know why you thought my comment about people slamming to one side or the other was directed at you. Sometimes, it feels like you're trying to provoke a fight with me. While you can keep trying if it makes you happy, I hope you don't mind if I continue to ignore the opportunity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:55 PM "Sometimes, it feels like you're trying to provoke a fight with me. While you can keep trying if it makes you happy, I hope you don't mind if I continue to ignore the opportunity." What?? You are clearly somewhat anti-Brit, and you don't mind showing it, but that does not provoke me at all. It's entirely your problem. You don't do nuance, do you? The post that this is a response to is yet another 100 mph slam. If you want a fight I shall gracefully step away. This 'ere internet thingie is far too two-dimensional to get all hoity-toity about. Real life is always round the corner and I have a cottage pie to make for tea tomorrow. Can you see that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:39 AM Man woman, boy girl........end of. Only cranks attention seekers and fruitcakes think otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 06:21 AM I'm sure we all appreciate your all-seeing, all-knowing tolerance, Bonzo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Rain Dog Date: 14 Feb 21 - 07:12 AM I think you are forgetting hermaphrodite/intersex people Bonzo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:01 AM Not interested, they can sort out their own problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:15 AM Perhaps it would be best if you spiced your lack of interest with lack of comment, Bonzo. Free country, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:16 AM Free country it is indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:36 AM free to insult trans members of mudcat,bloody diosgrace |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:40 AM there are trans performers on the uk folk circuit they occasionally post here ,they dont want bonzos intellectual insults |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:43 AM I am saying that non-expert celebs who sound off about things unrelated to the reason for their celebrity should perhaps be viewed through a lens of scepticism. And I view such sweeping dismissal of the general intellect of all people in the public eye as nonsense. Each must be taken on their own merit. I don't find Rowling's intellect to be lacking, so she may speak about what she wants to. Now Trump, that's another story. He can shut up from the get go. See how that works? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:56 AM Not offended by Bonzo3legs, here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 14 Feb 21 - 09:59 AM but do you speak for all trans peopl?/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 10:49 AM Sorry, Maggie, but if you don't see the difference between "suggesting that non-expert celebs who sound off about things unrelated to the reason for their celebrity should perhaps be viewed through a lens of scepticism" and "sweeping dismissal of the general intellect of all people in the public eye" then I think you're having a bad day. I note that you have also dismissed a thread that's discussing Amazon as having been set up for fighting. Well go and have a look and see how we are handling it. The main fighting talk in that thread so far has come from you and Jeri. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: leeneia Date: 14 Feb 21 - 03:27 PM Last week the pastor of my church said that she had been talking to hospital chaplains who are very discouraged because doctors and nurses are leaving medicine because of the great stress caused by Covid. I'm sure all nations have similar problems. That being the case, this is hardly the time to add further stresses by making demands about people's vocabulary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:09 PM Why on earth would anybody think I speak for anyone other than myself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:17 PM Well we do sometimes struggle with finding the right words. Negro, black, coloured, Afro-Caribbean, black African, African-American, person of colour... Gay, queer, homosexual, lesbian, queen...Asian, British Asian... Same thing with gender matters that we have to tussle with. The thing is, the people like you and me who have to tussle with finding the words are not the people in those minorities who oft find themselves discriminated against, often with the words of language we are now tussling with being the main weapon. To my way of thinking, it's worth our efforts to be respectful enough to find the right words, the words those minorities would want us to use (not necessarily the words they might use among their own). It's hard work, but not as hard as the work those minorities have to do to fight those prejudices... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:30 PM No disagreement with that.. The problem is that however these new words which are satisfactory for minorities are decided upon. They can then become weaponised by activist fanatics, and imposed on greater mass mainstream socity, by force of internet bullying/canceling; or even law and punishment.. This is what lefty liberals like me feel uncomfortable with, and what antagonistic right wing media can exploit as ammunition to fuel prejudice against minorities... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:48 PM That's it. Words as weapons. I have a little paperback that I bought in the 1980s called In A Dark Time. The first chapter is called Words. It consists of quotations from lots of different sources, many of which reveal how words can be weapons, how words can twist things and manipulate, as well as how words can inspire. Trump is a complete arse but he has used words brilliantly. He's an evil sod but he fully knows how to keep words simple, how to whip up his simple supporters via his simple words. It ill-behoves us mainstream-types to complain that getting the right words is too hard, too much of a nuisance, too much of a pain in the arse, when we have to talk about minorities, who have to struggle a damn sight more with their feelings of repression and their battles with prejudice than we have to do with our words. I haven't got my head round the language of gender as yet, but I'm buggered if I'm going to sound off about the issue until I've educated myself as to the right words to use... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:12 PM Steve, I took the fighting words out of the Amazon thread. That's why you don't see them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 21 - 08:32 PM I haven't even looked. Not my gig. If stuff goes, it's gone. Cheers anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: leeneia Date: 15 Feb 21 - 10:56 AM Me, I've come to suspect that most demands for political correctness are meant to derail the discussion and focus attention on the demander. It's childish, or at least 50% childish. Sure, if you hear a kid say "nigger," you teach him better. But I'm tired of wondering which of four terms to use for "Native Americans from south of the Rio Grand." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Feb 21 - 12:02 PM Well I think we should make the effort. As I said, politically-incorrect language (call it lazy language?) is in danger of demeaning groups of people who already have more than enough by way of prejudice to contend with. They have to make a mighty effort to escape their predicament. We have to make a tiny effort just to try to get the words right. All we have to do is try; it doesn't matter if we occasionally get it wrong... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jos Date: 15 Feb 21 - 12:21 PM My problem is that what is offensive and what is acceptable keep changing. For example, 'cripple' was replaced by 'handicapped', and then by 'disabled', and now some insist on saying 'differently abled' - soon it will be something else, and earlier versions that used to be widespread and considered correct will be considered insulting or offensive. Or the 'offensive' terms may reappear as acceptable. Black people can now refer to themselves as niggers, but if you are not black it is frowned on or roundly condemned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 21 - 12:59 PM its still ok for bonzo to call someone bonkers so i think bonzo is bonkers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:37 PM no of course bonzo is not bonkers he is the most intelligent sensible tolerant liberal person on mudcat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Feb 21 - 02:47 PM ...Apart from you... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 21 - 03:33 PM and you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Feb 21 - 04:57 PM Careful, Dick - Valentine's Day was yesterday... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: leeneia Date: 16 Feb 21 - 12:57 AM On the geological map of Newfoundland there is a dotted line labelled "The Red Indian Line." While on a tour, I asked the expert what that meant, and she went off about the political incorrectness of it. (For all we know, it was named by a red Indian.) First of all, there were no native people anywhere nearby to be offended, and she brushed off my science question of no importance. That's an example of someone using political correctness to grab the spotlight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 03:48 AM there are people who come on to this forum who are trans who could be offended, that is the difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Senoufou Date: 16 Feb 21 - 03:58 AM I too find it tricky keeping up with all the latest PC/'woke' ways of using words, but for me the main idea is not to offend anybody and to avoid words/expressions which hurt people's feelings or imply prejudice, insult or disparagement. It costs me nothing to make an effort to adapt my vocabulary. It might be tedious and make me hesitate to open my mouth (which my husband cheekily says is a Very Good Thing!) but I would feel terrible if anyone was hurt or upset by something I inadvertently said. I've posted on here before about how he jokingly calls me 'Honky' and I call him 'Nigger' (mostly in private). And his cringe-making habit of calling out in the supermarket from the next aisle, "Darling! You're Nigger is 'ere!" making everyone around us aghast with horror. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 04:03 AM It costs me nothing to make an effort to adapt my vocabulary, I agree and if it makes a a person feel more comfotrable when visiting this forum. why not. I know two trans people from the uk folk scene who occasionally visit here why would i want to upset them |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Feb 21 - 08:35 AM "there are people who come on to this forum who are trans who could be offended, that is the difference" Well that is tough is it not? Nobody has the right not to be offended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 21 - 08:54 AM Yep, it's tough all right. For them. Extra tough because they have no right not to be offended with regard to everything else in life, like the rest of us, but with the icing on the cake for them being the extra thing that can be used to offend them. Offend them or, put it another way, subject them to your prejudice. Don't forget to stop just short of hate speech. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:03 AM I'm all for being nice, but the "rules" in the article are just plain stupid. Any trans people who come here aren't likely to be offended by "breast" or "mother". The language has ventured into the absurd, and looks more like the article, and its prohibitions, were created by a right wing whacko who was ham-handedly wielding irony. Which is, I believe, how the term "political correctness" entered the lexicon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM Jeri it is better to use the term parent , , the language imo is not absurd , for example it becomes more apt for single parent families , or for mothers that now use sperm banks, and the child does not have a living father, you have to move with the times |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:38 AM Well we don't need prescriptions but we do need to be mindful and humanitarian in the words we each choose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:41 AM anyway brighton are not going to take any notice of people like bonzo and jeri |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: punkfolkrocker Date: 16 Feb 21 - 11:07 AM IMHO/edumacated guess.. One factor guaranteed for minorities to annoy & alienate 'mainstream' society, and for right wing groups/media to exploit against them; is militant minority activists who attempt to exert a disproportionate sense of entitlement and power over the vocabulary and conduct of the mass population.. Getting this right is a fine [near impossible ?] balance... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 16 Feb 21 - 11:08 AM Or you. If someone is trying to talk about their female parent, saying "mother" is more specific. Language police: let em spin, let 'em scatter in the wind, I have been to the movies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 12:30 PM jeri, you have been to the movies, i am impressed, you have been to the movies and you can bake a cherry pie. another great step forward for mankind |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 16 Feb 21 - 01:06 PM Ooh and now it's a music thread, Bilky boy, Billy boy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Feb 21 - 01:06 PM Thankyou Jeri, absurd is absolutely right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 21 - 01:40 PM The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd. Bertrand Russell |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 17 Feb 21 - 06:24 PM My school had a headmaster and my wife's school on Buenos Aires had a headmistress . None of modern day neuterising!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Feb 21 - 07:35 PM Headteacher. Hardly a PC word... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:08 AM Bonzo, how do i know what sex you are? I think you might be a woman, so would it not be safer if i just call you dog warden or dog person, i know you are dog matic , but that is the only certain thing about you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Doug Chadwick Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:31 AM Bonzo, how do i know what sex you are? Given Bonzo's opinions, demonstrated here in this thread, then "........my wife's school ......", posted just two messages up from yours, should give you a clue. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:05 AM Hmm. Dunno, Doug. At least a couple of women on the telly who are in single-sex marriages refer to their wives... I'd have thought that a more solid deduction would be that no woman would come out with such uniformly daft notions as Bonzo does... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:31 AM mrs thatcher? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM doug chadwick, unless one knows bonzo in person , he could making his wife up, he could be a woman or a trans as well as a right wing troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:54 AM Ha ha!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:08 PM no bonzo, prove you are a man. i do not believe you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:09 PM you could be a chimpanzee |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: leeneia Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:22 PM Yes, isn't Bonzo a chimp from Blind River, Ontario? Companion of the opprobrious Shane? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Senoufou Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:31 PM If Bonzo is a chimp it doesn't matter one bit. I like him very much, and love hearing about his dog Dreamy. How is Dreamy getting along Bonzo? Hope the snow wasn't too much of a problem for walks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:46 PM well perhaps chongo minds.Bonzo has to prove he is a man |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Doug Chadwick Date: 18 Feb 21 - 01:20 PM Steve, Hmm. Dunno, Doug. At least a couple of women on the telly who are in single-sex marriages refer to their wives... I did start my comment with "Given Bonzo's opinion, demonstrated here in this thread, ....". How likely is it that Bonzo would be in a same sex marriage? Dick, Don't be silly! DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 18 Feb 21 - 03:15 PM Don't be so fucking stupid Sandman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 18 Feb 21 - 03:36 PM Compliments returned, the whole thread is fuckin stupid, just bringing humour to a fuckin stupid thread |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 18 Feb 21 - 03:43 PM Both o' yez, grow up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Feb 21 - 07:28 AM Brighton is where every queer and awful folk singer imaginable lives!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 21 Feb 21 - 08:57 AM can you give examples i do not know one folk singer who lives in brighton |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 21 Feb 21 - 01:07 PM Interesting take on this in WashPo: Blicky. If paywall, lemme know. What I don't get is why people worry about what pronouns to use in *addressing* anyone. "You" has no gender. One only uses a gendered pronoun in English in 3rd person, singular. If you talk about me out of my hearing, I don't know -and don't care- what you use. If you talk about me while I am there, use my name. And *then* use They to avoid repeating my name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Feb 21 - 05:03 AM We don't know your name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Feb 21 - 08:48 AM It's Mrrzy, duh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jon Freeman Date: 22 Feb 21 - 09:00 AM I thought I read it explained as being pronounced like "Mersey" ( a river that should be well known to a Liverpool supporter) a few posts back or in another thread? A google search @@'@ tried yielded nothing for that but did find "Merzy". Are they variants of the same name? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Feb 21 - 12:27 PM "It's Mrrzy, duh." I doubt it, but I'll you it anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Feb 21 - 02:02 PM Doubt it all you want. No variations. The nickname was invented at my birth by my much older sisters. Long before I knew I was nonbinary I was already using it to avoid my gendered name. As soon as I realized I did not belong to my body's gender I had my name legally changed. Pronounced like the river Mersey, or like mercy with a Z, or like myrrh+zee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Feb 21 - 02:12 PM Fine! I'll call you nowt else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: leeneia Date: 23 Feb 21 - 10:22 AM Mrrzy, I agree with you about pronouns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Feb 21 - 01:57 PM Gender is very easy considering there are only 2!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Feb 21 - 03:03 PM And you're both of 'em! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 21 - 03:12 PM However, gender isn't about someone's anatomy, it is about who they know them self to be. There are many different gender identities, including male, female, transgender, gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender, and all, none or a combination of these. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Feb 21 - 04:05 PM Nonsense |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Feb 21 - 04:06 PM Usually happens when their mothers don't leave them outside in their prams when babies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Jeri Date: 23 Feb 21 - 05:40 PM I wouldn't pay too much attention to Bonz. He doesn't know the difference between gender and sex. Seriously, when someone's THAT invested in being intentionally ignorant, it's not worth the 100th of a calorie you'd use typing a response. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Feb 21 - 05:46 PM He doesn't mind if you take the mick out of him. He was nice enough to wish me well when I got sick at the weekend, and we have sparred occasionally! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Feb 21 - 05:49 PM And I've heard that they're all like that down Croydon way, which is why I've never been! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: robomatic Date: 23 Feb 21 - 05:51 PM I appreciate it when folks go out of their way, and potentially their comfort zone, to describe their modes of thought and struggle to be understood. If I'm an advocate of anything, it is that people have a right to express themselves without hindering other people. I try to call folks what they want to be called. I think we are not so much settled as in multiple states of flux. I think in future there might be fewer genders than a dozen, unless some triple sexed aliens show up. The utilization of exoplanetary pronouns will lead to some pretty neat graduate theses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Feb 21 - 05:53 PM We are as far south of South Croydon as you can get - 500 yards from border with Tandridge!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Feb 21 - 06:01 PM Denial will get you nowhere! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 24 Feb 21 - 02:28 AM I know !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:32 AM It won't in Croyden. But DWandle will get you to the Thames |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Feb 21 - 08:16 AM DWandle - a male or female, or the river? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 21 - 08:37 AM It's not the size of the DWandle... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hospital in Brighton has gone bonkers From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 21 - 08:48 AM Grr. I meant, it's not the size of DWandle... |
