BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 02:30 PM

A lot of fad diets sell a lot of books by this simple trick: they have the dieter cut out carbohydrates. When the body stores starch, the starch granules are surrounded by water molecules. When the dieter stops eating starch, the body takes the granules out of storage to use for fuel and urinates the water.

Water weighs a lot, so in the first week or ten days of the diet, the dieter sees a wonderful and encouraging loss of weight. S/he tells friends, who all buy the book too.

Some fad diets obscure this process by putting emphasis on what is eaten, rather than what is not eaten. I remember the Beverly Hills diet, which IIRC correctly, had dieters eating lots of pineapple. Everybody talked about the pineapple and about Beverly Hills, and nobody noticed the missing carbs.

The keto diet sounds like the same thing, only with its high fat and protein, more risky than most.

Some diets have you drink a lot of water, so you won't wonder why you are urinating so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 02:42 PM

We do tend to think of a 'diet' as a reduction of intake of something, often for weight reduction but perhaps some other purpose as here.

Covid lockdowns have reduced my weight as I've not been singing in pubs so not drinking beer. Sure lots of folks like a drink at home but that's not been my style since home-brew days when we couldn't afford to drink out.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 05:45 PM

I meant Atkins diet in my last post but I mis-spelled it.

I really think the importance of many diet programs is that they provide a regular check-in. Another way of looking at it would be ritual but the essence is you do not do it without a witness.

Right now and all through the covid era I've been walking a dog daily. That has given me an anchor of exercise that has probably left me healthier than when I sat around in Starbucks typing to you guys (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 05:48 PM

The scepticism you imply is on the nail, leeneia. A great corrective to some of the twaddle we've been served up recently.

Wulfie, the moment has long passed and the spat was skilfully sidestepped days ago. Live with it and take a low-fat chill pill.

If you're a good weight and you feel healthy and your guts are healthy, you're probably doing it right. If you have a medical condition indicating the need for an alteration in diet, you should be consulting a real doctor (not the guy down the gym or your personal trainer or your best mate or a diet book). If you just need to lose weight, eat less food. That's me, that last one. But God, I love my grub and I'm weak...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:21 PM

Well I've just been casting my ever-sceptical eye over this "resistant starch" thing.

First, the study that started all the fuss and which was mentioned here was carried out on ten volunteers.


Ten.


Second, the conditions under which the study was carried out were unnatural. Empty stomachs, just pasta with unspecified sauce, etc. Plenty of potential confounding factors there, as we say...

Third, the study was carried out over a very short period of time.

Now I'm not for a minute saying that there's nothing in this, but let's just say that there's barely enough here for a hypothesis, let alone a scientific conclusion. Looking at various reports on this (the Good Housekeeping one being about the most confused), you'd think that eating pasta (spuds, bread and rice too, the staples of most of the world for hundreds of years if not millennia) suddenly releases a huge rush of sugar into your blood. Well it can't, because neither pasta nor the others contain much if any actual sugar at all, and you have to digest the starch first using an enzyme released into your gut, and that takes time, and you can't absorb it very quickly. A small rise in blood sugar after a meal is the most natural thing in the world, and lots of the stuff in the meal apart from the pasta will be contributing to it. It's normal. It's true enough that high-fibre versions, wholewheat pasta and brown rice for example, take longer for the gut to break down into absorbable sugars. I'll tell you what, if you want a sudden sugar rush, just drink a nice big glass of pure, freshly-squeezed organic orange juice: plenty of immediate sugar calories there! So "healthy"!

Healthy people can easily cope with the digestive speed of the starches in pasta, spuds, rice and bread. There may definitely be something of value in this for people with diabetes, and the usual caveats for people with gluten intolerance, etc., apply. I won't be relying on reheated pasta for my fibre or to absorb fewer calories. If I can be stronger-willed than I currently am I'll eat foods that I know are high in fibre, and I'll eat less food.

By the way, purely subjectively and from an aesthetic point of view, reheated pasta is horrible. It will inevitably be overcooked and will likely go all doughy. Cold pasta, as in those little pots of penne with added gloop, I find it to be thoroughly unappetising and I won't touch it. The Italians are a proud people and they understand pasta. Cooked in water as salty as the Mediterranean Sea until exactly al dente and no more. Never leave the kitchen while the pasta pan is on. Tossed with sauce and not too much of it, never a heap of ragu dumped on top of a pile of spaghetti. Eaten with a fork only, preferably slurped. So we non-Italians murder it by over-cooking it, letting it go cold and, worst of all, reheating it into a soft, collapsing mess.

Let them eat cake...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:44 PM

I doubt we will hear from this Mudcat member on this thread --
I would be happily surprized if we did --
but there is a keto-diet adherent
who sticks to the declutter and fitness thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:06 PM

Resistant Starch as a complementary treatment for type 2 diabetes

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:23 PM

Resistant starch and energy balance: impact on weight loss and maintenance

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:27 PM

Resistant starch facts

Resistant starch studies

Effects of resistant starch interventions on circulating inflammatory biomarkers: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:28 PM

"Everything you see, I owe to pasta"

- Sophia Loren

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 11:38 PM

Food fight...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:06 AM

I'm seventy this year (you wouldn't think it and I don't feel it), been through a whole kaleidoscope of ups and downs in life (mostly ups, though still to win the lottery) and I'd like to mainly enjoy what I have left if I can and if my bad back will allow. Very high on my list of indispensable aids in that quest is eating pasta dishes. I can't cook complex things with lots of spices and other exotic ingredients without cocking it up. But I can cook twenty or thirty pasta dishes to Shaw-perfection (might not be to yours) and the vast majority are quick, simple and full of those nutrients that we westerners living in miserable, damp climates in Northern Europe enviously link to "the Mediterranean diet." I like to think that I'm respectful of the Italian heritage of this cuisine (though I doubt whether Italians would care a jot). It's extra virgin olive oil, fresh herbs (never dried basil), sliced garlic (never minced up), no mixing garlic and onion in the same dish, no cheese on fish dishes... and, most crucially, the pasta cooked spot-on al dente. It took me years to be able to confidently get that right every time.

So I can't listen to advocates of letting pasta go cold and warming it back up again. I'd rather hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete. Cold spuds and rice are very useful ingredients, and I use them a lot, but decidedly not because they contain "resistant starch." I don't give a damn. I've been through life hearing various gurus condemning all manner of things that, up to that point, I've been enjoying. So I'm not listening to this guff about my perfectly al dente pasta giving me a sugar rush or leaving me feel hungry. I've never eaten pasta that has ever resulted in those feelings, and something very primitive and deep inside me tells me that it's decent and healthy eating. I'll listen to the science when it comes along (I might even read Helen's links and come to regret this post, at least in parts, though I'm serially averse to reading uncommented-on, unannotated links in what's supposed to be a discussion forum).

In m'humble!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:12 AM

...And I once stayed for a week in Marina Grande in Sorrento, where the film "Pane, Amore e..." starring Sophia Loren was shot. And ate pasta every day!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:52 AM

Sailed to Capri from Sorrento. Best pizza I ever had was in Anacapri, the high end of the island.
Have stocked up on pasta in lockdown but it's made of peas, lentils, edame beans etc. (and wholewheat, spelt)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 06:10 AM

We went to Capri from Maiori on a small open boat (I think there were about eight or nine on board at the most). It was a blazing hot day in early September 2013 and it was a fabulous trip. I'd been to Capri as a teenager on a school trip and the years peeled away as we rode to the top on the funicular. The coffee and ice cream were a bit of a ripoff! We took one of those terrifying narrow buses to Anacapri. It was a lovely day but it was heaving and it was just a day trip. I've heard since that the best thing to do is to fix an overnight stay in Anacapri, when the island is transformed into a different and more pleasant place. Next time...!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 07:14 AM

Well I've looked at those links.

The first one is largely concerned with diabetes or pre-diabetes. The sample size was very small. Studies aimed at ameliorating the health of sufferers from diabetes are probably the most useful aspect of all this. There was one study, significantly with a larger sample size (69), that found that resistant starch had no effect on the appetite or food intake of prediabetic people. It's in a link within a link within the link, a bit buried, as with the good that's oft interréd with the bones, to misquote the Bard... I'll say no more about that as I wouldn't want to be accused of confirmation bias...As for the rest of us...

The second one is a lengthy meta-analysis largely concerned with data collected from studies on rats. I gave up the will to live on this one after reading the first 19 of 32 pages. Which means I may have missed something, I suppose...

The last three links consist of two popular science reports which are, to be kind, watered down somewhat for mass consumption. The third is by far the most rigorous of any in these links. It's a meta-analysis of a number of studies from the last thirty years. Whilst the report is far from dismissive, the conclusion of the author kind of says it all:

The current meta-analysis indicated that RS intake can improve some inflammatory biomarkers. More research, with large sample sizes and accurate design is recommended.

It's impossible to draw sound conclusions from studies using short time periods and small sample sizes. They must be regarded as initial studies which may (or may not) indicate that more thorough, and far more expensive, research is required. I'm not being dismissive, and I acknowledge that the studies done so far may be significant for people with or at risk of diabetes. As for those of us not in that category, I can't see any more than just a passing interest being called for. I'm biased, of course, because I like my pasta to be al dente.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM

I have figured out some sources of resistant starch because I have to avoid it - sets off attacks of proctalgia fugax (which is more painful than either a heart attack or a blocked gallbladder, from personal comparison). The only thorough survey of its occurrence in foods that I know of is an article about 20 years ago in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, which is impossibly difficult to get hold of. Meanwhile: unripe bananas are really bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 03:57 PM

Another interesting area of study is the gut microbiome which can influence health and psychological well-being in a lot of ways. The most interesting aspect that I have seen in scientific/medical TV programmes and articles is that the microbiome can be changed to a more beneficial balance. One of the ways to do that is by using prebiotics and/or probiotics, resistant starch (assuming that resistant starch does not create problems as mentioned by Jack Campin), eating healthy fibre etc but also for extreme cases by performing "transpoosions", i.e. faecal transplants.

Back in school, I never really knew what I wanted to be when I grew up but as I have progressed through my interesting and varied careers I often think that if I had known about nutritional science and medicine I could have happily followed that path.

Jack, I love green bananas. I can't imagine life without them but as I said to Mrrzy early in this thread, it can be a life-changing nutritional revelation when you find out what triggers a physical or psychological reaction because you then know what foods to avoid or to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 04:40 PM

Probiotics won't do you any harm, except to your wallet. The bacteria therein may not even get past your stomach acid. There's a massive multi-million pound industry which tries to persuade us that our gut health can be improved by drinking small amounts of inexpensively-produced watery cultures. The evidence is thin, and always will be, as these products are classed not as medicines but as foods, which means that they will never be subjected to the rigour of clinical trials. Mmmm, Danone...

Prebiotics are all about substances which we can't digest but which our gut bacteria can. I haven't found any evidence that focusing on weird and wonderful (and expensive) "prebiotics" will do you any more good than seeking out lovely, inexpensive wholefoods that are rich in fibre.   

As for faecal transplants, there is huge money to be made. A shitload, in fact. Whilst anecdotal evidence from a few people looks promising (if you can believe that the poo-recipients are objective and not just weirdos who will try anything, and never admit that they've wasted their money), there has been nowhere near enough research on this for it to be anything like recommended. Still, if anyone feels like jumping the gun, I can provide the required material, at considerable cost, of course, and on the understanding that shipping is at your own risk...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 04:57 PM

The gut microbiome in health and in disease

Human gut microbiome: hopes, threats and promises

The Microbiome

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:25 PM

I figure I don't have any weird problems, and other than a mostly nonexistent bit of MS, I'm healthy. I'n not gonna mess with things. I've eaten active culture yogurt, but I don't think spending megabucks buying bacteria to snack on. Probiotics may be beneficial to some people, but I don't think they'd do anything for me. i tried CBD, and when I couldn't remember, I couldn't tell if I'd taken it. Again, it works like a miracle for some. I
think I'm likely juat a boringly normal boomer.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:42 PM

Very sane, Jeri.

The links in the post before yours (again, posted entirely without comment) express doubts about the usefulness of probiotics (and point out that they are a tens-of-billions industry) and strikingly indicate that "prebiotics" (another great word coined in order to get you to think that you have to spend money on exotic stuff) are cheerfully available from common foodstuffs, supplements not needed. It all comes down, as far as I can see, to just being sensible about the balance of foods we eat. Watch your weight, watch the calories (by weighing yourself) and eat a good variety of stuff including goodly amounts of vegetables. And be happy and enjoy life.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 10:48 PM

Anyone who bothered to read what I have posted before going off half-cocked again would clearly see that I was not recommending expensive supplements. I was referring to prebiotic and probiotic foods including some of the foods I mentioned in my posts earlier in this thread.

The only person who mentioned expensive supplements is you.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 04:42 AM

I was respectful enough to wade through the links you've given, even though you had nothing to say about their content yourself, and tried to pick out the bones in what was was a lengthy and tedious exercise. If you don't think that my interpretation was fair and balanced then let's have yours. You've raised several issues that are at best controversial in scientific terms, and part of the balance in this discussion is to ensure that that is pointed out. Otherwise, it could appear that, by providing what are ostensibly "scientific" links without comment, you support their content and are arguing from authority.

Nutrition is an area in which many people have spotted lucrative potential. We have superfoods, supplements, probiotics, prebiotics and myriad diet books pushed at us constantly, ranging in value from near-science to snake-oil. My point of view is that, here in the West, with the rich and diverse range of foods available to us, most people can get by with little or none of this stuff by following (mindfully) an ordinary, sensible, balanced diet which avoids excesses of anything and which is largely based on fresh, good-quality ingredients. Anyone with a medical issue which indicates particular dietary needs should consult medical professionals, not be vulnerable to falling prey to the moneygrabbing sharks waiting in the wings with their cod science, their fad diets and often harmful (and often expensive) wares. If that cautionary note is dissed here, instead allowing people's cherished fads to go unchallenged, then the discussion is not balanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 05:26 AM

So many baseless assumptions.

Such strong denial, or even defiance of a broad range of scientific studies, analysis and evidence.

Clinging so vehemently to those strongly held, cherished beliefs and opinions.

And yet, you tell us oh-so-often that you hold a science-related qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 06:16 AM

Have you actually read your own links? As I suggested, if my take is not to your liking, let's have yours. You put up so many links without comment, after all. I've put up several substantial posts in which I've made no baseless assumptions and I haven't "denied" any of the science (some of which actually casts many a doubt on what you're advocating: I'm puzzled that you didn't find any of that...wonder why not...). In fact, I've tried to tease out the real science from the fake news. There's plenty of good science there and much of it reflects exactly what I'm saying. Go on, have a read.

The fact is (and fact it is, whether you like it or not), there isn't anywhere near enough settled science to justify any kind of unqualified advocacy of Atkins, keto or any other fad diet, or of prebiotics, probiotics or "superfoods" (a one-time friend of mine couldn't face the world unless he'd placed precisely twenty goji berries on his breakfast cereal). Of course, there's much money to be made from promotion of these things. That alone should get your antennae a-waggling. You don't have to be much of a qualified scientist to be non-gullible. You're aiming at the wrong target if I may say so. And none of this is to say that there's nothing in these things, a point I've repeatedly made, though you probably wish I hadn't. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:07 AM

Mrs G and I tried Atkins many years back. Decided to give up after about 5 days when we discovered we did not have the energy to get up the stairs in Waterstones in Manchester. I am sure eventualy we would have gone into ketosis and started to crack fat as a source of energy but, when you think about it, ketosis may not be a good thing. It is treated as a symptem of illness most of the time and doctors try to correct it!

Steve, you have my sympathies. You have your Helen. I had my Jim. Punfolkrocker has his Dick...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:54 AM

Again, just talking about experience and general reading, and in no way a learned person on this topic.

There is science, medical science, experience, folk wisdom, and folklore.

There is the profit motive.

People are complicated. So complicated that what works for one person does not work for another. And the power of the mind is great enough to make a difference in how the body reacts. Short term AND long term.

I'll never forget a popular entertainer who I thought of as a lightweight doing a show on exercise, which did no harm but had one great observation at the end: "People ask what is the best exercise...the answer remains: THE ONE THAT YOU WILL DO!"

a LOT of this goes for diet. It should have enough science and medical context to fulfill that basic rule we can't get around: You must burn off more calories than you take in. And it needs to be doable FOR YOU. And there needs to be a long term life plan so that it will be effective after the weight loss. Many people are healthier and happier even if they are overweight, because they are at a stable point and they can function.

Very few of us start wise. Most of us are hammered into some form of wisdom through life experience. We learn what works and is right for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:33 PM

In the last couple years I've changed from buying ordinary pasta to whole-wheat pasta. I can't tell any difference in the taste or texture, but I hope it's healthier.

The only source is the small Wal-mart food store about a mile away.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 02:13 PM

Steve is showing signs of reactive hypoglycaemia. More complex carbohydrates might help.

Robomatic is right: the problem with specialist diets is their practicality for you. Try excluding nightshades. No question that it can make an enormous difference for some cases of arthritis, and you can verify if they're the problem very easily. But consistent total elimination for years on end takes a gigantic effort: all the logistics of getting food into your mouth needs to change, your social eating patterns have to be totally different, and it's impossibly difficult to explain to people who have no idea what tomatoes, cigarettes, mashed potato and tabasco might have in common.

My wife used to work with this stuff professionally as one of the UK's very few registered dietitians doing food intolerance. Finding the right diet wasn't the issue, the problem was making it feasible for people to follow it. At the extreme - she even had to tell some parents to give up and resign themselves to their child declining into an early death with seizures and mental retardation, because they didn't have a prayer of keeping him on the PKU diet that could have given him a normal life.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 03:23 PM

Some decades ago I was in a situation where I was cooking meals for a child who was allergic to eggs and for medical reasons couldn't eat dairy foods or acidic foods. It was a creative challenge to produce meals which were edible for the whole family yet still fitted in with the child's needs. As I was working full time, I did not have time to create two different dishes for every meal so we all ate the same meals.

As an example, spaghetti bolognese and lasagne were out because of the tomatoes and cheese, not to mention having to check whether the pasta was egg based. Eggs for breakfast, eggs in pancakes or cakes or in vege or salmon fritters, all out. Tomatoes and lemon juice were out. Orange juice was out. Just about every recipe that I tended to cook normally had to be re-thought or abandoned.

Cutting out one type of food is do-able, but cutting out three broad types makes it difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 05:30 PM

I've been taking your advice before you even dished it out, Jack. Dabs, chips and mushy peas tonight. Pasta (spirali bucati) with albacore tuna, nonpareil capers, garlic (sliced, never crushed), parsley and creme fraiche tomorrow. That epic pasta bake that all Italians love (home-made tomato sauce, short pasta, lashings of Parmesan and mozzarella) on Saturday. Pork chop baked with mushrooms, cream and lemon with jacket spuds and green beans on Sunday. Huge wodge of chicken and leek pie with mash and cauliflower on Monday. All interspersed with lots of toast and butties. That should fix it.

I always bear my crosses lightly, Dave. When all around you lose their heads... Did I mention the red wine?   Beautiful Negroamaro down to £6.50 at Mozzers? And if you like white, the Soave Classico down to £5.50 is a thing of great beauty...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:28 PM

So you may not get fat, but you may be a candidate for gout?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:48 PM

Well I'll try to eat it all in moderation. But just look at all the healthy ingredients therein, robo. Tuna, garlic, capers, parsley, tomatoes, onions, extra virgin olive oil, green beans, potatoes unpeeled, lemon, cauliflower...OK, along with a pork chop (which I'll trim), creme fraiche, a bit of cream, chicken, mozzarella, pasta, Parmesan, butter... Good variety, all the vitamins and minerals are in there, omega 3 oils, monounsaturated oil, the works. Resistant starches, haven't a clue and won't fret. Prebiotics, I'll let the gut bugs decide. Plenty of calories, which I have to try to control via portion control and exercise. Good living, and I won't be worriedly consulting any diet books! So what'll give me gout then out of that lot, me, a 69-year-old who's been gout-free all his life?

Hey, and all with no added sugar!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:50 PM

I forgot the mushrooms!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:28 PM

I leave Prebiotics to the cows. No carbs allowed me to lose 20lbs easily. After that half portions are required.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:51 PM

We have enzymes for digesting starches, starting in the mouth, ending in the small intestine. We have enzymes for breaking complex sugars down into absorbable monosaccharides, which our cells require as their source of energy. The carbohydrates that we don't digest are the fibre we must have for digestive health.

Now I'm not a religious man, but tell me this: if God had intended carbohydrates to be the very spawn of Satan that some of you folks seem to be suggesting it is, then why did he put these mechanisms in place for us to handle them so well and make a gut for us that depends so much on them for its digestive health? Huh??

What I'd suggest is that you should go back to before you lost that 20lb and reflect on why that extra weight was there in the first place, on what you were doing to put it there. You might also reflect on the fact that a gram of fat contains about two and a half times as much energy as a gram of carbohydrate.

Not eating carbs may be a valuable strategy for diabetics and for people with specific intolerances or gut disorders. As for the rest of us, cutting them out completely (as if you could anyway...) is a very risky - and faddy - strategy, and no-one should be pushing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:17 PM

Well in the olden days when we were 'paleo' we were feasting and starving, then someone got the bright idea of growing some of the vegetables and if they didn't want to eat only vegetables, then they could catch and keep small edible animals. As the old Alaska bumper sticker says: "vegetables aren't food...Vegetables are what food eats!"

Of course, all that was before pasta.

I don't know if genetic research has determined when the great apes or their progenitors lost the ability to synthesize their own Vitamin C, but certain primates, bats, and guinea pigs must supplement and most of the way I know of to do it is with fruits, which are full of carbs.

Of course, we have supplements with no cals which can provide the ascorbic acid for those on keto.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:50 PM

Ok calm down y'all, I reiterate - carbs upset my mental health, so I am avoiding them, as I prefer sanity to spaghetti.

I am not advocating anybody else avoid them.

I am curious about people's experiences with avoiding them.

There is no weight control involved.

So complaints relating to weightloss do not apply to the original question.

Repetitions of opinions without experience do not apply either.

All I asked was have you tried this way of eating, and if so, did you like it. Unfortunately the word for This way of eating is Diet, but I clarified that I did not mean weightloss regimen early on.

So back to the original question: have you yourself ever tried to eliminate carbs from your usual food intake, and if so, did you enjoy your usual food, and the way it treated you? If not, then, never mind, no need to post here about how you are not answering the question.

Especially no need to argue with other people, whether they are answering the question or not.

And really no need to tell anybody whose opinion differs from yours that they are wrong.

I now return you to the thread already in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:09 PM

Thanks Mrrzy,

About 40 years ago I didn't stop eating carbs, I just changed the type of carbs by reducing the amount of white carbs like white rice, white bread, pasta and potatoes and increasing the amount and varieties of vegetables and legumes. Yes, I found that it helped me to lose weight, so I can't really help with your specific question but I found it fairly easy to make the switch to healthier carbs.

Greek salad was a magic bullet for me. I tried it on a day trip to Sydney, liked it, started making it for lunch every day at work and found, serendipitously, that I had lost weight. I was enjoying eating healthy, well-balanced meals and I had the added bonus of losing weight. When I reached my desired weight I just modified my eating plan to a longer term plan.

Since then I have only really gained weight about 20 years ago during a health-related episode which is now under control and whenever I have lost weight, I tend to keep it off. I am at a healthy weight at present, with a good BMI score.

As I said earlier, the concept of a keto diet rings an alarm bell for me because of the high fat aspect. It all depends on how you implement it and I have always consulted my doctor for expert advice before making major health-related changes.

As for fats, my go-to is olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:40 AM

It's horses for courses apropos of oils for me. "Ordinary" olive oil is a no-no for me as it's way too refined. I have two grades of extra-virgin in the house, a less expensive Sicilian one (from Tesco) for cooking (it's bullshit that you shouldn't cook with extra virgin olive oil) and a classier one, either Sicilian or Tuscan, for sprinkling on finished pasta dishes or a pizza, or for salad dressing. For hot frying it's groundnut oil - neutral flavour and a high smoke point. For frying eggs, omelettes and fish, unsalted butter. We have a lovely Cornish source. For roasties, if there isn't enough fat from the meat I might use goose fat or beef dripping. It's gotta be about the end-product for me.

Just a tad naive, Mrrzy, to open up a controversial diet topic and not expect thread drift, huh?

For losing weight it's a great idea to acquaint oneself with the calorie content of different foods and take it from there. It's a start. For suspected food intolerances or for treating diabetes, where a drastic alteration in diet is indicated, proper medical advice is needed. That can't be said too often. Twice in the last two posts now.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:50 AM

So you don't have any comment on the keto diet or low carb diets?

Mrrzy, the OP, has requested that we stick to the original topic. Please respect the wishes of the originator of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:36 AM

If that was aimed at me, cast out the plank...

I've said plenty about keto and low-carb diets to keep everyone unhappy for ages... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:41 AM

From what I can remember of my gym dietitians approved,
strict but effective,
healthfully balanced muscle building and fat loss diet;
which I eventually became bored with after a few years of difficult self-discipline...

NO carbs after 6 p.m.

Go to bed every night suffering pangs of Hunger.

Have willpower or be fat.

Weight training lifestyle for health and fitness is positive and beneficial.
Despite being so puritanicly spartan and boring..

But competition bodybuilders have a self-destructive potentially suicidal streak
when they undertake health damaging rapid fat loss starvation and dehydration regimes in preparation for ripped muscle stage shows and photo shoots.

That is unnatural and in extreme cases lethal.

Particularly for boxers and other martial artists desperate to drastically lose weight overnight
in order to qualify for pre fight weigh-ins ...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 06:26 AM

I've been trawling around the research regarding carbohydrates and mental health (some of it of questionable quality, mainly because of one-track-mindedness and the setting aside of significant confounding factors). The best research is that which seeks actual biochemical mechanisms which may influence brain function. There isn't any settled science as far as I can glean, in fact there's a bit of divergence between the pro-carb and anti-carb arguments. One conclusion that is largely agreed on is that highly-refined carbohydrates (sugars and white flour, for example) are in the "suspects" box - but, as I said, good science requires that we start to explain specific biochemical mechanisms. That's the only way to rule out confounding factors such as the pre-existing physical, physiological and mental state, lifestyle, gender, age and medical history of the people being studied. There's no question that high-GI carbs in large amounts (which are not natural components of the diet, except in small quantities) make blood sugar controlling mechanisms work hard and can cause undesirable ups and downs in that regard. A lot of the research has that as its starting point. I haven't found much convincing evidence that the more complex carbs that release their sugars into the bloodstream more steadily, via digestion and absorption, have had a finger pointed at them by rigorous research. Evidence is thin, and it ill-behoves anyone to advocate diets that rule out complex carbohydrates beyond saying "this seems to have helped me, but it may not apply to you, so seek good advice from medical professionals first..."

I'll keep looking...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:12 AM

It's getting on for 25 years since I started trying to become a dedicated fitness freak.
At my peak I felt and looked good.
Justifiably positive self-esteem
at age 40..
But I wasn't too narcissistic about it.
I never photographed myself, or trained in front of mirrors.
All I have is memories of how I felt to be fitter and stronger.

Now..
Right now, I'm away from home for a week or so taking care of urgent family business..

There is a bloody great big full length bathroom mirror right by the side of the toilet.
Yesterday I caught sight of my naked profile whilst having a pee.

What a shocker. What a huge belly.
Didn't realise it was that bad.
No wonder I can't bend and crouch anymore...!!!

I look like my dad did when I vowed never to end up looking like my dad..

That was when he was diagnosed as diabetic
due to his unhealthy factory workers lifestyle.
He snuffed it from a massive heart attack at 69.
I'm 62...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:33 AM

I've been trying to find a list of "culprit" high-GI carbs. Different sources are all over the place - but white pasta seems generally to come out "middling..."

Yeah, the full-length mirror is the enemy of the older man all right. My advice is always to look full-on, never side-view...

And why do some people insist on having a mirror over the bog so that men have to look at themselves peeing...sex discrimination I calls it...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 09:10 AM

The high-GI food I have to avoid is cornflakes. Have them for breakfast and I get hypoglycaemic in the early afternoon unless I eat far too much in between. I know of other high-GI foods but that one is uniquely awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM

Well, I was being really really rigorous because I had a doctor visit coming up. Then doc gets sick [how dare!] and appt put off for 10 days! Yikes! So I relax, put a tsp of maple syrup in my tea, drink some fruit juice, have a Kir... Not all at once, over about 4 days...

And look! I started losing patience with the whiners and would-be line-jumpers at the vax clinic where I volunteer, with thread drifters [not a crime!], with friends and family... Think I will go back to what I used to call Rigor but which has just mutated into Preference.

And I didn't even have spaghetti. All my relaxation was a bit of simple carbs here and there, which I had hitherto noted as making me *shake* but not get upset over trifles.

Now, it is also quite possible that my mental health is just fading because I have a mental illness, that maybe my [so far year-long] post-hospitalization remission is ending. If going back to Really No Carbs puts It back into my equanimity [a reach, that phrasing, I know], then great. I shall report back.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:40 AM

Cornflakes came out absolute tops of one GI list I found. They have the same effect on me, Jack. I got round it slightly by chopping a banana into the bowl and putting a dollop of Yeo Valley on top. But now I just avoid 'em. I can't stand that starving-to-death feeling at 11.15 am. I'm a bit off breakfast cereals at the moment. I suppose the spray-on vitamins are at least of some use. Oatibix are low sugar and reliably filling, but it takes about four gallons of milk per three of them before you can stop them setting like concrete in the bowl.