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BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM Yeah, that's what worries me. I have no noticeable symptoms. I fear the effects I don't notice. One thing occurs to me: what were our ancestors' sources of carbs before the domestication of grain? I know we evolved to crave them because they were rare. Could ketosis actually have been normal in those high and far-off days? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Apr 21 - 08:58 AM Tried lowGI carbs, just some, for a few days... Then realized I was spending money like it was water and losing my temper with my friends for being exactly the way they always were. So have stopped. And returned the 50" TV that was medium in the store but waaay to big for my actual living room. A little hypomania goes a loong way... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Apr 21 - 09:08 AM I think we just have to accept that you are unhinged Mrrzy :-D (In the nicest possible way of course) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Apr 21 - 06:26 PM Oh, totz! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Apr 21 - 08:43 AM Finally found an actual research article. Have contacted the authors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:01 PM And one answered! The data are looking better for keto and bipolar (http://ketobipolar.com/) The data are looking better for long-term keo and health (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100216163531.htm) And they might do a case study on me. Will watch for kidney stones and bone density issues (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6985427/). Woot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:22 PM Congratulations. Anything that gets you more tests and measurements has to be for the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 21 - 11:23 PM Mary, my favorite lentil soup recipe is from Egypt. 6 cups water (it tastes better than using stock), a medium chopped onion, 1 1/2 cup lentils, cooked for 45 minutes, then add 1/2 teaspoon cumin, a little salt, grind of black pepper to taste, and a tablespoon of lemon juice. It really is delicious and is good for you (I try to get lots of oats and beans for the cholesterol lowering properties). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Donuel Date: 19 Apr 21 - 07:44 AM I lost all want of toast with breakfast. Rice, and potatos and pasta still are a problem but small purple potatos and proportionality takes care of craving starch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 03 May 21 - 04:11 PM I appear to have stopped losing weight, 5 lbs short of bmi<25. Hmmm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 03 May 21 - 05:17 PM Hi Mrrzy, Weight loss can plateau. Sometimes you can kickstart it again, but sometimes it's almost like the body's sense of its own "ideal weight". A BMI of 25 is not bad. I read somewhere that the BMI calculation was invented by an insurance company statistician who was looking for a way to decide who was a good insurance risk, from a financial viewpoint. He did a comparison on obesity rates and age at death. It wasn't invented by medical experts, so it isn't the only measure of your health that you can use. In other words, don't place too much pressure on yourself based on BMI. Look at the bigger picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 04 May 21 - 07:49 AM Oh yeah, no, it was just a marker. But it woulda been nice. The better thing is that I can buy clothes, if I have really stopped... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 04 May 21 - 02:39 PM This is a fairly sane description of some of the issues around the BMI measure. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255712 It gets a lot of hysterical rant from pro-fatness zealots, using much the same sort of spin doctoring as the anti-vaxx gang. Historically it was developed as a simple and easy to calculate formula that correlated with empirical risk. It works reasonably well, and there is a very large volume of data using it - an improved measure like the one suggested in that article might well work better for some purposes, but you'd still want to use that old data. And the pro-fatness zealots don't want there to be ANY measure that might describe the damage to individual and public health caused by obesity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 04 May 21 - 04:01 PM Thanks Jack. Interesting article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 May 21 - 06:17 PM I appear to have stopped losing weight, 5 lbs short of bmi<25. Hmmm. Mrrzy, I thought that you were looking to the keto diet because you had noticed that complex carbs disrupted your mental health, rather than for weight loss. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 May 21 - 06:36 PM Ah, well, a medical need popped up (finally - and it's good to know what's going on.) I'll give myself a couple of weeks then I'll be doing the alternate day fasting, but making a point of kicking out more of the processed flour I've added back into my diet over a couple of years since the PMR cleared up. It turns out the thyroid was running low and it'll be another week at least before I begin to feel the effects of the daily tablet on an empty stomach. Then perhaps the extra weight gained over the winter will subside. I'm not doing keto but the doctor wants fewer carbs and fats and more protein. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 04 May 21 - 07:08 PM I was diagnosed with hypoactive (i.e. underactive) thyroid about 20 years ago. I'm on the tablet for life. For the few months before being diagnosed I was an overweight, fatigued, brain-fuddled mess but after the medication kicked in I started getting back to normality. I found out that a person who had recently "recovered" from glandular fever and was back at work very kindly (not!) gave me a case of Hashimoto's disease. Sorry, not keto-related. Back to the topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 May 21 - 10:20 PM That pretty well describes my symptoms. The doctor wants about half of calories in protein - that is a LOT of protein. A co-worker was on the Atkins diet one time, I looked into it - there isn't a faster way to constipate yourself than go on that diet. I'll have to do some research (and possibly read through the rest of this thread). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 04 May 21 - 11:31 PM Maggie, I didn't have to go on a special diet. When the pills kicked in the weight started going away. It was mostly fluid retention, I think, so a diet would have made little difference. What I mostly remember about that time was that my brain was like mushy porridge. I couldn't think straight, and every sound seemed really loud and annoying. I was sitting in a library with some of my students and all I could hear was the loud whooshing of the air conditioners, which I had never noticed before - or since. My main suggestion for the Atkins diet is to read the original Atkins information and not the myriad of people who think they know what it's about, don't have the original information but are happy to sound off about it. It's mostly lots of veges or salad and protein. But also avoid white carbs - pasta, rice, potatoes, white bread etc - and substitute vege based carbs like carrots, sweet potato, etc and use legumes for some of your protein. One of my fave recipes is to mash up white beans or canellini beans or chickpeas (instead of mashed potato) and add fried onion and other veges, feta cheese, whatever flavours take your fancy, shape them into patties, coat them in panko breadcrumbs and shallow fry them. Yum! The beans hold the patties in shape, but also add protein to the meal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 05 May 21 - 12:30 AM Also, the Atkins diet has a kickstart stage which looks daunting, but it is followed fairly soon after by a healthier balance of foods, so it's important to read about the stages before you start. Otherwise you might scare yourself by just looking at stage 1. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 May 21 - 09:06 AM Indeed, DC. One of my worries was that I kept losing weight and did not want to, but that seems to not be a worry any more, yay for my mental health. I had a half-cup of decaf the other day and did not go crazy. It was sooooooo goooooood... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 May 21 - 09:20 AM I mentioned Atkins as one that seems unhealthy, but obviously there are interpretations to consider. If I were to name a target "diet" it would be the Mediterranean diet (which isn't actually a think like a book is it?). The types of foods from that region. My favorite cookbooks is a Middle East compendium that covers a lot of the dishes I consider from that region. Hummus, falafel, babaghanouj, etc. Since my garden in this region of Texas is especially good at growing Mediterranean-type crops, I'm set. All of this is coming at me at once; the physical exam and blood work that revealed the hypothyroid was the one to approve cataract surgery. I'm hoping by the end of May to have a clearer brain and clear vision. I'm going for one standard Medicare lens (that eye doesn't need correction otherwise) and one of the higher-end ones to correct the astigmatism. Those, along with my knee replacement a year ago and I tell people I'm entering my "Bionic Phase." ;-) I won't be able to do any lifting for a week after each eye, but I struggled mightily to put the garden in ahead of all of this so it can grow while I watch from the driveway. One of my crops is okra, and while I can't say I enjoy it in all of it's forms, that's because I didn't grow up down here where it grows so well. But I'm eating more of it each year. I have figured out that to pickle the extras is a great way to make the neighbors happy (gifting jars of the pickles). They're a healthy snack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 05 May 21 - 02:42 PM Yay, Mrrzy! Milestones reached! And Maggie, the Middle Eastern "diet" is my favourite food. I love all the ME foods you mentioned - but not okra, mainly because I ate it once about 40 years ago and I wasn't impressed. My favourite ME cookbook is by Claudia Roden. I bought it in the '80's or early '90's and had to buy a replacement copy because I had worn the old one out. I love it. And Yay! for your cataract operations. I had mine a few years ago and it was fantastic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jos Date: 05 May 21 - 03:10 PM I tried okra once. It was horribly slimey. I have since heard that there is a solution to the slime, I think it involved salt and vinegar - soaking, maybe. I find that a simpler solution is just not to use okra. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 05 May 21 - 04:10 PM Sorry, I meant I love Middle Eastern AND Mediterranean. Because you mentioned hummus, falafel, babaghanouj I zeroed in on the Middle Eastern foods and then realised I had missed out on saying my other faves like Greek, Turkish, Italian, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 05 May 21 - 05:09 PM The links below are for the Atkins 20 plan which has the lowest carbs per day, but there is a page which compares the different Atkins plans: Compare the Atkins plans Personally, I would probably do the Atkins 100 and then if I thought it was working well and if I needed to tighten the restrictions I'd consider whether to go on one of the stricter plans. Ease into it gently. Atkins 20 Atkins diet overview with a quick reference chart of foods for each phase. The foods for each phase are explained, e.g. List of Low Carb Foods for Atkins 20, Phase 1 There is no need to buy any of the Atkins food products. The list of foods for each phase shows a healthy range of vegetables, fruit and proteins and they are all available at supermarkets etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 06 May 21 - 08:59 AM As I understand it, Atkins starts off keto then morphs into lower-carb-than-before-but-not-THAT-low? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jon Freeman Date: 06 May 21 - 09:05 AM I first encountered okra and an Indian restaurant when I was a child. We had been to Old Trafford to see Norwich play Man U and stopped off (I think in Sale) on the way back to N Wales for a meal. I loved it. I must admit though that my couple of attempts much later in life at making a bhindi bhaji weren't that good. I did try growing it here one year but it failed. It can be grown, ideally under cover, in the UK but SRS in Texas has much better conditions for it. I can't remember if I've asked my brother in Queensland (Sunshine Coast region) has tried growing it but I guess it might suit his sub-tropical climate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 May 21 - 09:38 AM Fried okra has none of the slime but boiled okra has all of it. The Complete Middle East Cookbook by Tess Mallos (an Australian author of Greek heritage) is the best one around, not only for recipes but for telling you techniques. In the front she describes how to treat okra to remove the slick consistency. I pickle it (Ladybird Johnson's recipe) and that vinegar removes the slick consistency. Stir fry cut up pieces and it's okay. I don't eat it in everything, but I'm getting better. That cookbook (above linked to Amazon) is an expensive one. Go to Bookfinder.com and look for a hardbound used version and you'll get a better copy than the perfect binding softcover sold more expensively now at Amazon. I have several extra copies because I use this book as a gift for people who love this kind of food. I can usually get it for under $15, including shipping. My mother's sister married a man who immigrated from Turkey as a young adult and learned to cook a lot of his favorite dishes. She got a look at my book one time and said this was the best set of recipes she'd seen, so everyone in the family got copies. So it is "Aunt approved." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 06 May 21 - 12:02 PM Maggie, I love my well-worn hardback copy of the book by Tess Mallos. I bought it when it was first published. The sliminess of the okra turned me off, but your methods of frying or pickling look better. Mrrzy, that describes the Atkins diet pretty well. I never bothered with measuring the ketosis, back in the mid '80's. I just found that when I modified my eating habits according to the Atkins phases I was losing weight in a healthy way, and ever since after I reached my ideal weight I have just been careful of not eating lots of white carbs, and eating a balanced diet with lots of veges, fruit, good proteins, extra legumes and healthy fats like olive oil and avocado. It's an easy long-term healthy eating plan for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 May 21 - 06:25 PM I first grew okra because my next door neighbor asked me about it, she was having trouble with it in her yard. I gave her my crop and said she'd have to show me how to fix it. A delivered plate of okra cut into 1/2" diagonal pieces, rolled in a mix of seasoned cornmeal (with a little white flour for sticking purposes) and fried in a pan of shallow oil was enough to convince me that okra was a good crop to grow. Yesterday was a great illustration of why having a garden is such a luxury. I had some ripe avocados for guacamole and I didn't have my usual stash of frozen cilantro (I lost it in the February power outage and haven't replaced some of that yet). I had a stray volunteer cilantro growing in a pot outside so walked out to trim some sprigs and add them to the mix. (I hope avocado is considered a healthy fat in the keto and other universes). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 06 May 21 - 06:47 PM Oh yes, avocado is a healthy fat. Love it! The okra recipe sounds good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 06 May 21 - 09:05 PM We eat a pretty wide range of culinary idioms, but insofar as it's Mediterranean it's usually Turkish. My wife is totally intolerant to gluten and dairy in any form or quantity: I'm somewhat allergic to bread wheat. Turkish food has the advantage that you can easily work out what's in it and alternatives to those problem foods are routinely used. Getting away from Turkey, even within the eastern Mediterranean, and it gets hard to avoid wheat and dairy. So the concept of "Mediterranean diet" isn't very useful. But learning to cook Turkish is easy and books and ingredients are easy to get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 May 21 - 09:40 PM From the Mayo Clinic site about the Mediterranean Diet: The Mediterranean diet is a way of eating based on the traditional cuisine of countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea. While there is no single definition of the Mediterranean diet, it is typically high in vegetables, fruits, whole grains, beans, nut and seeds, and olive oil. The main components of Mediterranean diet include:
Other important elements of the Mediterranean diet are sharing meals with family and friends, enjoying a glass of red wine and being physically active. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 06 May 21 - 10:55 PM I like the meat nuts seafood and veg, but can't do the fruit, beans, or grains. Wine is ok... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 07 May 21 - 12:57 AM So grapes are ok, Mrrzy? LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 May 21 - 01:03 AM I had a problem with milk for quite a while and cut way back, before realizing that cultured milk (yogurt and cheese) didn't give me the same sinus problems. Maybe the cultured/fermented aspect of grapes to wine is the same. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 May 21 - 04:36 AM The Mayo Clinic has it right when they refer to the "Mediterranean diet" as a way of eating. I'd go further and call it a way of life. Calling this healthy way of eating a "diet" relegates it to the level of the fad diets being lauded (worryingly - non-medics advocating what almost amounts to medical advice...) in this thread. For at least a decade, the eating in our house fits the Mayo definition very nicely, but we got to it via our visits to Italy and enjoying and adopting the "Italian way" of eating. No prescriptive diet books making a fortune for charlatans, no dipping in and out, no failing and starting again. The cooking is simple, you don't need mountains of ingredients or a huge array of herbs and spices, and many of the dishes can be rustled up in a very short time. What's not to like? Incidentally, on the matter of so-called "healthy fats," the only unhealthy fats are the artificially hydrogenated ones. Butter is a major part of cooking in much of Italy (think risottos) and Parmesan cheese is also prevalent. Whether butter and olive oil are healthy or not depends solely on the amounts you eat. All things in moderation, only the freshest and best-quality ingredients, plenty of vegetables. That is not a diet. You can still get fat on it, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 May 21 - 04:57 AM When it comes to milk, we stopped using it for long drinks or sticking it on breakfast cereals, etc., years ago. We still have it in tea and coffee, but where we used milk before we now use oat "milk" (with no added sugar). I find that fine in porridge but not in coffee. I must say that my guts have felt much better as a result. Incidentally, if you think lactose is an issue for you in dairy foods, there's very little or no lactose at all in mature cheddar or Parmesan. Good to know! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 May 21 - 05:39 AM When it comes to grapes, I can cheerfully munch my way through half a pound or more, especially if they're Sable grapes, but my guts will not feel good the next day. When you drink most wine, you are not consuming much, if any, of the grape sugars, and you are not eating the skins or flesh. I think there's a clue there... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Mrrzy Date: 07 May 21 - 08:25 AM Yeah, I corrected folks early on who thought by Diet I meant Weightloss regimen when what I had actually meant was Way of eating. We do need a different word for Way of eating, as in Mediterranean diet or, in this thread's case, keto diet. I had not intended the thread title to be misleading, but it was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 May 21 - 08:27 AM When my wife was working as a dietitian she came across a survey article that listed 51 different kinds of dairy intolerance. It can be to sugars, fats or protein. The one she has is a form of casein intolerance - it is genetically linked to schizophrenia, which some of her family have had. Casein in any form produces horrible psychic effects. Lactose intolerance is normal - adult tolerance of lactose is a recent mutation (arising independently in different parts of the world). It's the easiest kind of dairy intolerance to manage. At the other extreme, almost nobody with anaphylaxis to dairy protein lives into adulthood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 07 May 21 - 12:24 PM Cultured dairy products are nearly lactose-free - the microbes eat the lactose. So yogurt is generally ok for cats, though they're usually lactose intolerant. (Hedgehogs are much more seriously intolerant, I wouldn't try it with them). One of the odder kinds of dairy intolerance is "total cow allergy", to beef or any form of dairy. I don't know what the offending allergen is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 May 21 - 12:54 PM Mrrzy you could have confused this thread if you'd brought up a Diet of Worms. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 07 May 21 - 02:20 PM The etymology of the word diet shows that it comes originally from the Greek through Latin and then Old French. Having studied Latin, Anglo-Saxon and Middle English, as well as Geography I use the word diet in its original meaning as what a person tends to eat in normal life. It wasn't until more recently (historically speaking) that it also took on the meaning of a prescribed restriction of food for medical - or other - reasons. I certainly do not equate the word "diet" with "fad diet". There are some fad diets (prescribed or restricted eating plans) but there are also some healthy eating plans. One does not necessarily equate to the other. diet (n.1) c. 1200, "regular food," from Old French diete (13c.) "diet, pittance, fare," from Medieval Latin dieta "parliamentary assembly," also "a day's work; daily food allowance, food," from Latin diaeta "prescribed way of life," from Greek diaita, originally "way of life, regimen, dwelling," related to diaitasthai "lead one's life," and from diaitan, originally "separate, select" (food and drink), frequentative of *diainysthai "take apart," from dia "apart" (see dia-) + ainysthai "take," from PIE root *ai- (1) "to give, allot." From late 14c. as "customary way of eating," also "food considered in relation to its quantity and effects," and "a course of food regulated by a physician or by medical rules," often a restriction of food or certain foods; hence to put (someone) on a diet (mid-15c.). The adjective in the sense of "slimming, having reduced calories" (Diet Coke, etc.) is attested by 1963, originally in American English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 May 21 - 05:10 PM I've just had a conversation with my brother who has the discipline to change his diet sufficiently to lower his cholesterol to the degree that he could stop taking the statin drug to control it. He said it means eating an almost vegetarian diet (with some fish thrown in on occasion). His total is down around 144 right now. Good work. Mine used to be fairly low naturally, and I'm pretty sure a less selective diet has been a contributor to the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Jack Campin Date: 08 May 21 - 06:23 PM Mrrzy is spot on about how old keto is. R.M. Wilder and W.D. Winter, "The threshold of ketogenesis", J. Biol. Chem. 1922, 52:401. Cited in Ekvall and Ekvall, "Pediatric Nutrition in Chronic Diseases and Developmental Disorders" - they mention that the idea of selective starvation to control seizures goes back a few centuries |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 May 21 - 07:25 PM Quite so, Jack. Unfortunately, the overriding context of the discussion of keto here has little or nothing to do with epilepsy. "Like it?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 08 May 21 - 07:45 PM Correct, complete, factual information is essential in my opinion. An ex-colleague of my husband who heard that Atkins is higher protein than some other diets, did not read the actual Atkins information but decided that he had free reign to eat a great big fatty plate of bacon and eggs every day for breakfast, or steak and eggs for lunch with little or no vegetable matter. Or an ex-colleague of mine who heard the tail end of a documentary about the 5:2 Fast Diet and thought all she could consume on the fasting days was tea or water. She didn't read the actual 5:2 Fast Diet information and was surprised to learn that the calorie restriction for the fasting days is easy to live with, especially knowing that she could eat normally on the non-fasting days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it? From: Helen Date: 08 May 21 - 08:50 PM My posts are about what worked for me and about healthy balanced eating plans with lots of veges, fruit, good proteins, wholegrains, legumes, nuts, seeds etc. |
