BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Subject: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 03:27 PM

I am pretty low-carb these days but not that high-fat. Just wondering if any of y'all had experiences to relate, and didn't want to bury the inquiry in the recipes thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM

Could you include a brief description of a/the Keto diet?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:58 PM

It works well for some serious conditions, like some seizure disorders. Hard to follow and awful side effects. Not something to try because a friend saw a magazine article about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:35 PM

Isn’t it very much like the Atkins Diet?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM

Atkins is a form of keto.

Keto = very high fat, medium protein, very low carb diet. The idea is to make the body turn fat into ketones to burn instead of sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:00 PM

Hi Mrrzy,

I have only ever heard that the keto diet could have serious medical risks if it is being used to lose weight.

Harvard Health Letter
Should you try the keto diet?

I would not compare it with the Atkins diet which focuses on lower carb intake and higher protein. The keto diet focuses on lower carbs but high fat intake. To me it is counter-intuitive and makes no nutritional sense compared with healthy eating plans which focus on increasing vegetables,fruit, healthy grains and legumes and low fat protein.

My fave is the CSIRO healthy eating plan

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:09 PM

You should always aim for a balanced diet. If you eat too much meat, you have to eat too much dessert to maintain the balance.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:25 PM

Survey article on use in psychiatry

Bottom line: fuck all use, except for seizures.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:43 PM

Mostly just buy ingredients, the best quality you can afford, organic or at least high-welfare, and mostly cook your food from scratch (and buy some bags of pasta). Eat a lot of veg and mostly avoid ultra-processed foods and mostly don't grab takeaways or ready meals. Mostly. And stop fannying around with fad diets that do nothing for you but which make fortunes for the twats who come up with them.

I said mostly. Which means I love the occasional pizza takeaway or fish supper. Why not. We are lucky westerners, so let's enjoy life. You're only doing it wrong if you notice that you're getting a bit fat, or if you look in the mirror and notice that the whites of your eyes have gone yellow. Do try to notice...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:50 PM

I follow it loosely and not closely enough or I would be dropping weight...I pretty much maintain. If it is what your body needs, it is very healthy. If it is not, it would not be healthy. I personally thrive on fats and do very poorly on starchy carbs. Have your insulin levels..as well as your blood sugar..measured. You can have all the green vegetables you want. It is not at all hard to follow if that is what your body needs and I personally have no side effects. If you eat the wrong foods for your body type, of course you will have a hard time. If you have high insulin levels and/or are diabetic, nature is telling you to reduce empty carbs..not vegetables. Fruits..not in excess and it depends. If there are good doctors recommending it for SOME people in your area, pay them a visit. There are many people thriving, losing weight, lowering their blood sugar, etc. It is not for everyone. Neither is a high rice diet right for everyone. Depends on your metabolism. But you can at least get rid of starchy carbs and see how that does.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: BobL
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 02:50 AM

An interesting article in New Scientist last year suggested that, essentially, hunger is tied mainly to the consumption of protein: if your diet is protein-rich you tend to eat less overall, if it's protein-poor you eat more and hence overdo the carbs and fats. This is somewhat theoretical - it hasn't been rigidly tested, but it seems to make sense. Trouble is that protein's pricey, carbs & fats are cheap.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:18 AM

I have an ex-colleague friend in the US who follows the Keto regime, and also a very strict exercise/activity regime. She is as fit as a flea, a magnificent physical specimen, and she swears that the Keto diet is the key to her very obvious well-being.

But I find the idea of huge amounts of fat and protein simply dreadful. I’m always aware when I’ve eaten fat- and protein-heavy meals because I feel heavy, sluggish, and devoid of energy, and for several hours afterwards I feel on the point of chucking-up.

I guess Keto would suit some people, others not so much. I believe I’m in the latter group, and I try to stick with Steve’s recommended ‘balanced’ diet (which is also the diet recommended for diabetics by Diabetes UK, the official association for diabetics in the UK).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:42 AM

Balanced diet means a pie in each hand?

N.B. NHS ad in this thread says 'Check your risk with our 30 second quiz'.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:50 AM

”Balanced diet means a pie in each hand?”

What planet do you come from? On Planet Backwoods it’s a pie in one hand and a pint in the other! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 09:06 AM

My psychiatrist brought it up as I have noticed that complex carbs disrupt my mental health. Apparently not just epileptics but bipolar folks can benefit.

I pretty much eat no carbs now that aren't an element of a vegetable. If I do, the next day I am emotionally labile. Even given up my usual daily 7 m&ms or other small amount of chocolate.

However I am *not* getting most of my calories from fat, though I cook with olive oil and butter (grass-fed and lots of it). I eat meat, veg that aren't starchy, and almonds. I do put splashes of fruit juice in my seltzer. Fried is ok, but not breaded.

I feel fine, healthy and even-tempered.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 09:27 AM

That survey article said there wasn't enough evidence to show it helped bipolar disorder.

It's got much harder to get good information on this sort of thing than it used to be - the shills have too much of an interest in SEOing their hype and the people with the real scoop want to be paid big money for it. But there are so many obvious negatives to this one it has to be a last resort.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:22 AM

A balanced diet is surely a treacle pudding in each hand!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:35 AM

Not great for a diabetic, Bonz! Mind you, neither is a pork pie! And I haven’t used alcohol since 20th December, 2005, so....

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:46 AM

It's worth remembering (sayeth the cynic) that all published diets are designed to fail. The first universally successful diet would spell the end of the lucrative diet book industry. We can't have that now, can we! I feel fine when I eat my own cookery. And I mean cookery, starting from scratch with quality fresh ingredients, not sticking a pizza on an oven shelf for ten minutes (which I do occasionally). A couple of days of takeaways or ready meals and I don't feel so good. For me, that's the clue. Investing in my own efforts in the kitchen helps me to control both the quality and quantity of what I eat. Nothing's perfect. I love cheese in all its manifestations, for example. And eggs. In the last 36 hours I've consumed six eggs. I need to shed a stone (I can tell, because all my shorts are a bit tight...), but my guts are good and I feel fine. I can't ever see me living in the permanent misery of daily weighing or calorie-counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 12:22 PM

There are other kinds of diet than weight reduction ones. A PKU diet or one for G6PD is *not* designed to fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 12:52 PM

OK, Jack, those are diets based on clearly-defined medical needs. I meant fad diets in books that are intended to sell in the millions to a gullible public.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 01:52 PM

Sorry Mrrzy, when you said "diet" I thought you meant weight loss diet.

It sounds like it is working for you. It's good when you get immediate feedback if you eat something that doesn't suit your body's needs.

I don't eat many processed carbs except for a slice of wholewheat bread now and then. I get most of the carbs from vegetables and I try to add legumes to the meals I cook, e.g. making vege or salmon patties using crushed chickpeas or butter beans etc instead of mashed potato, or using red lentils to thicken stews, or making black bean burger patties instead of meat patties. I eat meat but not every day. I don't stick to any specific diet but when I lose weight I tend to keep it off so I seem to have found a good healthy eating plan which works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 01:58 PM

And you might be able to work out a chocolate-type fix by using carob. I have made chocolate brownies using processed almonds instead of wheat flour. It would work with carob instead of chocolate although it would need something to hold the mix together to replace the gooeyness of the melted chocolate. I've also seen recipes using crushed kidney beans or black beans instead of crushed almonds or wheat flour.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:19 PM

Carob is inedible to me, and I tried! The weird thing is, I am not craving anything.

And yeah, we need a word for diet that doesn't imply weight-loss. Oops.

I wonder how much of my mental illness getting better wasn't so much the 3 weeks in the loony bin as the 3 weeks eating nothing but salads, because the food was so bad.

And it doesn't seem to be a wheat thing, with me. Taters, rice, rye bread... it all inhibits my next day's equanimity. I experimented.

Sugar, as in dessert, makes my right hand shake the next day, but my temper is ok. It is the *complex* carbs that come back and bite me in my mental ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:41 PM

Well, Mrrzy, it seems to me that you have had a life-changing nutritional revelation. Congrats!

After my Hubby had radiation therapy following an operation he found that he can't eat raw onion any more, which is easy when we eat at home, but just about every salad at food outlets has this trendy raw red onion tossed through it so he has to remember to ask for no onion in his salads. When he worked out that that was the problem, it made life a lot easier.

No, diet is the correct word. I just leapt to the assumption that you were talking about weight loss or weight maintenance.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 07:16 PM

What follows is experience not recommendation:

I knew someone who tried the Adkins diet seriously and long term. He appeared to lose a lot of weight and keep it off and be healthy. I know no other details.

About fifteen years ago I tried a specific version of an administered keto diet. Mine was medium protein, low carb, and low fat. I went to a doctor's office once a week for a weigh-in, health check, and to purchase specialized diet supplements and low carb foods. It was not high expense. It worked to the extent of rapid loss of a lot of weight. It did not work for me in that I did not keep the weight off.

A "keto diet" is easy to say and write, but the point of the diet is to put your body into ketosis. This is a significant thing to do to your body so you must have a plan and a witness. You have to keep your total consumption of carbs not just low, but VERY LOW. Your pancreas goes inactive. You feel a difference. There are chemical tabs you purchase that detect the presence of ketones so you know you are in ketosis. Just eating a "keto diet" is not necessarily doing that for you. Any departure from the ultra-low carbathon kicks you out of ketosis in a hurry.

As to the medical benefits of it for weight loss, you can lose a lot of weight that way. But it is not a permanent state of affairs and unless you have a stable landing place as to lifestyle, there is no guarantee the weight will stay off. I think the other person I started with transitioned to Weight Watchers once they got where they wanted to go.

In ketosis, your brain is metabolizing differently than when you are ingesting more carbs. You do feel different, and it is neither bad nor good. The diet has been utilized for people with seizures. But that wasn't what I was doing it for.

One of my current friends with a lot of common sense and medical awareness thinks that going into ketosis for weight loss is generally drastic ill-advised and usually unhealthy. They developed a life-long habit of never finishing anything. They are slim and active.

When I was on the diet, I felt somewhat sharper mentally, but I also upped my caffeine consumption, via black coffee, significantly. Maybe there was a relationship there.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:22 PM

What worries me about the keto diet is that you would probably get into the habit of eating high fat amounts and then when you try to go back to a normal healthy eating plan you would have to kick the high fat habit.

The Atkins diet made sense to me and I did try it and I lost weight and kept it off for many years. I read the whole book, not just the intro and the stage 1 information, unlike many critics of the Atkins diet who seem to just read the kickstart/stage 1 part and say - very long and loudly - that it is unhealthy in the long term. Well, stage 1 was never intended as a long-term eating plan. It just leads into stage 2 which is the more gradual weight loss part. And then stage 3 is for maintaining the weight loss after you have reached your goal.

I liked the concepts in the Atkins diet and the type of food recommended were all healthy foods. The higher protein idea is to help prevent hunger, unlike when you go on rabbit food diet i.e. a lettuce leaf and a piece of carrot. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:28 AM

When I was 36, trying to keep a beer gut at bay with unfocused exercise
I joined a local private 'body builders' gym
which focused on diet as well as weights.
I had to discipline myself to eating small amounts frequently.
Specific food groups, at set times of day.

All 'normal' healthy food.
No expensive dubious supplements or protein shakes.
No alcohol.

I had no inclination to be a body builder, just fitter and stronger for my age.
The strict diet was a pain in the arse to adhere to.
But I was allowed one cheat meal on saturday nights.

Between 37 to 41 I got my weight hovering around 13 stone,
with muscularity somewhere between a swimmer and middle weight boxer starting to go to seed.
ie, no well defined six pack, but no flab either.
Sort of like a Roman Gladiator with a healthy protective layer of fat.

Back then I never had my BMI measured.

Then boredom set in, and I lapsed for a few years back to drinking and takeaways..

I got nearly as fit again by my 50th birthday.
Perhaps even more muscular,
with a low BMI measure which I've forgotten,
but I think was in the lower 20s.

Again dietary discipline was a constant battle against temptation,
and hard weight training worked up a thirst for weekend cider binges..

After my 50th birthday, illnesses and the increasing stress of family commitments
put a complete stop to my healthy lifestyle regime...

I am now a fat very unfit weaker bloke in my early 60s.
But I know what it felt like to have a superior than average physical strength and fitness,
and will need some serious reassessment if I survive the covid era into my mid 60s..

Very recently, lifting heavy storage boxes to clear space in the house,
and failing to fit under the sink to fix a leaky pipe
like I used to be able to,
has left my back and knees aching and stiff..

So, I will take an interest in threads like this...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:00 AM

Many years ago a friend of mine embarked on the Atkins diet. A few months later he ended up in intensive care as an emergency admission. I can't remember what the precise medical condition was that put him there but the crisis was put down to the diet. He's a happy fellow now, with "good cover" (something to fall back on, as my mum used to put it), but not obese, who enjoys normal food and drink (and life). Scientific evidence for the diet's efficacy in aiding weight loss, when looked at alongside more conventional methods (such as exercising portion control and avoiding snacking, etc.) is weak, though if you want to indulge in good old confirmation bias-style "evidence" there's plenty of that out there. Whilst I've never subscribed to the fat-is-bad point of view, it seems to me that the Atkins diet is faddy and risky. And I've never quite understood the complex-carbs-are-evil notion either. There's little evidence for that, and it strikes me that it's probably best to get proper medical advice (from a real doctor) if a specific medical condition appears to demand the avoidance of particular foods or food groups.

It's also worth remembering that anecdotal stuff (including what I said about my mate) put up in threads like this one is not evidence and is not necessarily to be trusted. I'm glad to see that no-one is "pushing" or recommending anything other than suggesting that it's probably ok for most people to go for a conventional, mixed, "balanced" diet, with two pints, not three, and three roasties, not four, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:27 AM

So basically, what you are saying is that you know nothing about the diet, you have no factual evidence, but you have your opinions and you are quite happy to push those opinions with no substantial scientific basis in reality apart from hearsay and anecdote.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:47 AM

You are trolling. Before I posted that I spent an hour researching evidence for the efficacy of the Atkins diet apropos of weight loss, and there is hardly any, as you would find if you pursued the same line of enquiry, when set alongside most other more conventional weight-loss plans. I have pursued weight loss in my adult life and, thank you very much, I know all about the Atkins diet. Perhaps you should try to find neutral and objective sources of information instead of ignorantly lashing out at someone who has demurred at your point of view. Ironically, supporters of the Atkins diet can dredge up plenty of hearsay and anecdotal stuff (they would, wouldn't they?) but practically nothing by way of evidence. Unless you can prove me wrong, of course. With factual evidence...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 08:54 AM

I am kinda with Helen on this, Steve Shaw.

I have said I am not trying to lose weight. So why go off on your admittedly-not fact-based opinion of keto as weight-loss?

I have detailed my evidence the effect of carbs on my health, especially my mental health. So why call it, insultingly, confirmation bias? Especially since I didn't believe it before the evidence?

And Helen, I do think we need a word for diet as in what you eat as distinct from diet as in trying to lose weight. Or take the word diet back from the weightloss industry. Maybe they could have the word Regimen, akin to French régime meaning diet-for-weight-loss.

Aha! Régime change for health!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:01 AM

In my first line there I meant to say sustained weight loss. For the Atkins diet, that has not been demonstrated on any sound basis over the long term for reasonable sample sizes of people. It does seem on the other hand that you're just as likely to put the weight back on once you've lost some as you are with most other fad diets. All this is checkable if you search for independent medical opinion. Please note the two key words in the last three in that sentence.

I lost three stones a few years ago. I started by looking at the 5:2 diet. I sort of went along that path but not absolutely strictly. I couldn't stick to it for long, but what it did for was to alter my mindset apropos of food. The diet says, basically, starve yourself (500 calories max) for two days out of seven and do what you like on the other five. I found that the two starvation-days were so effortful that on the other days I didn't want to spoil it by pigging out. On those days I found it easier to be more disciplined about portion sizes and snacking. I've put about a third of that weight back on over the years but I'm nowhere near as bad as I was before. I wouldn't exactly say that I've got this year's beach body sorted as yet...

I also think that embarking on a good programme of exercise also contributes to that improved mindset. We were always told in our yoof things like it takes a three-mile run to work off one slice of toast, and that a vigorous bout of sex uses up only 27 calories more than sitting still (I don't believe it). That info about just how efficient the human body is at conserving energy could be a bit disheartening, but knowing that you're getting yourself in trim definitely helps you to "not spoil it" by then stuffing your face, I reckon...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:16 AM

Have another look at my post, Mrrzy. I haven't mentioned "keto" at all in any of my posts up to now, and I most decidedly did not point a finger at you personally when I made the remark about confirmation bias. OK?

Both Atkins and keto require one to make drastic changes in one's eating habits. There's evidence that a keto diet can help people with epilepsy, though the evidence isn't especially conclusive. This is not a medical forum and if we really do wish to discuss medical matters we should be able to put up both sides of the argument (many years ago, Chiff and Fipple adopted a policy strictly forbidding the propagation of anything that looked remotely like medical advice). If we get some people saying here that a particular drastic change in diet "works for me," then we should fully expect to also have it pointed out that the medical profession is by no means unanimous on whether these diets are good or even safe, and that evidence for their long-term efficacy is at best inconclusive and at worst pretty shaky. If that balance is not permitted here, then the forum is in disrepute. Anyway, good luck with your diet. Cottage pie and purple sprouting for tea tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:30 AM

"Diet", if that means what you eat, is something everybody has, and can be adjusted for calorie content.
"Diet", if that means what you temporarily eat in order to lose weight, is by nature, abnormal.

From what I've seen, any rapid weight loss regimen is also a rapid-gain-it-back regimen when you stop it.

I think there are plenty of people who've adjusted to a keto diet (or for that matter, Adkins), but when I say "adjusted", I mean a lifestyle change, not a few months of eating unusual foods. That's like a dry-drunk when it comes to diet

The bottom line is, you need to figure out how many calories you need for your body to function. Excess calories turn into fat. Diets that fiddle with body aren't healthy.

Opinion: I think what's probably the best, healthiest diet is one diabedics follow. Personaly, I like chocolate too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:38 AM

The easiest way to figure out how many calories is to observe whether you gain or lose weight. I was never much good at counting actual calories. And I like fatty foods and I put too much butter in my mashed potato. Oh, and chocolate...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 10:56 AM

I'm 5'10" with naturally broad shoulders.
In my late 30s I was advised at the gym to aim for being a lean 12 stone of muscle.

[I had to visualise an appearance something like Brad Pitt in Fight Club.
An impossible ideal without Hollywood wealth and personal trainers/cooks,
but something tangible as a guiding light..]

I almost got down to 12 1/2 stone for a short while,
but it meant maintaining will power going to bed feeling hungry.
And painfully feeling the bitter cold in winter.
It was too miserable to keep up,
even though I enjoyed the physical fitness and strength benefits..

More trial and error, and I settled into a compromise
of stabilising my weight at around 14 - 15 stone
as I built more muscle,
but allowed myself a few more cheat foods and end of training week pints of cider..

That became a happier balance of muscle building, aerobic fitness, physical flexibility,
and weekend pub sessions with the mrs..

In practical terms, I could easily get in under the kitchen sink to fix leaks,
and confidently lift heavy storage boxes above my head for stacking.
Which I can't any more...

If I live to get to 65, I might even consider going mostly veggie again,
like I was as a skinny 11 stone 20 year old student/wannabe rock star...

I've already voluntarily packed in alcohol for health and finance reasons,
for getting on 2 years...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 12:09 PM

I'm happy if I can cut me toenails without gasping, wheezing and coming up for air every two toes. It's time to worry when you realise that you haven't been able to look down and see the ould todger for five years...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:06 PM

My wife has had practice cutting my old mum's toenails.
But even though my belly causes the same obstacle and backaching struggle
cutting my own nails,
I'm not sure I'd trust her to do it for me quite yet..
Certainly not any time soon after an argument...

Pampered luxury would be if I was well off enough to pay a chiropodist to visit on a regular basis...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:57 PM

I think a key issue in finding a healthy eating plan is not to go overboard, which is why I am very wary of the Paleo diet and some of the very restrictive diets which focus on eating a very narrow food or food group for a limited period of time to lose weight quickly. The tendency then, after the crash diet period is over, is often to go back to old eating habits. Also some people decide that they can go over the top and eat too much of certain foods like fatty foods if they are following a diet which says that fatty foods are not the cause of weight gain.

That's why diets like the CSIRO healthy eating plan make more sense to me because it is a way of changing eating habits into a set of healthier choices. As I said on 13 Feb, it focuses on increasing vegetables,fruit, healthy grains and legumes and low fat protein.

Recently I have been watching a TV series called The Diet Testers with Dr Xand Van Tulleken. A lot of people each try a different diet to see if they can lose weight. What I don't like about the show is that the health benefits or negative consequences are not analysed, but it is interesting to see what some of the fad diets are pushing, i.e. which ones to stay well clear of.

I prefer some other programmes I have seen which explore different health and weight loss plans where they make before-and-after analyses of the medical status of each participant using a large range of scientific measures.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:41 PM

I saw a documentary about a guy with a very specific cancer. He was a medico, and basically on a life sentence, so he did his research. And he is in remission, but only while he does his keto diet. It is not for the casual dieter. He has all the time available to him, and it takes a lot.

Things like eating insect protein, just sourcing it is difficult. Not appetising, but if the alternative is death....................

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:53 PM

There's a [mail order ?] insect meat farm in Wales..

.. well, there was before lockdown...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:57 PM

Eat insect protein or die? Really??

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 03:47 AM

Would crustaceans do instead of insects?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 04:15 AM

How about mushy bees with your fish and chips?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 07:30 AM

What is wrong with insects as food?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 08:58 AM

I emailed a spiny anteater about that but I'm still waiting for a reply as he's still on the antacids (formic).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:06 AM

If I recall correctly, the Welsh insect farm sold powdered insect protein...???

It was subject of a TV documentary a couple years ago...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0911ydt


https://www.thebugfarm.co.uk/about-us/bug-farm-foods/

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:45 AM

You are trolling.

No, Helen is calling you out for what you are. A didact. You like lecturing people, your way is the only way, you always insist you're right, and it's impossible to persuade you otherwise, even when it's obvious to others that your way is... only one way.

Nutrition is very much a black art. Everyone is groping in the dark. The "balanced diet", previously mentioned, is mostly the result of one influential scientist getting the ear of the USDA in the 50's. The balanced diet is medieval in the same sense that the world is flat & the centre of the universe - it's true because we've been told it's true, so we believe it; it sounds plausible. It's garbage.

As with any other diet, there's no evidence that it's... anything. The problem with nutritional science is that you need to study it over a very long period of time and, on top of that, you have to trust your guinea pigs to tell you the truth about what they've been eating. Every day. These studies do not exist. They are only now in progress. If you want to know how diet impacts on... heart disease, cancer, osteoporosis, etc, you have to run the things for 50 years & more.

I can go on & on. Instead I recommend to you a book, Why We Get Fat. Gary Taubes is a science writer, not a scientist. Nor do I wholly agree with all that he says. He should, though, provoke thought, if you are capable of thinking; not umbilically attached to "This is right! Nothing else could be!!!"

I am personally a fan of LCHF diets (Low Carb High Fat), though I rarely stick to them very well (although indifferent to rice, I luuuurve spuds, bread & pasta!). But I am also a fan of Fast diets i.e. diets that involve minimal consumption for 1 or 2 days a week. Some folk struggle with these, I find no trouble at all in eating minimally or not at all.

Ultimately, it comes down to the same thing that most things do - "What works for me?". If X doesn't work, try Y; if Y doesn't work, try Z; if Z doesn't work, then try something else in the alphabet (or beyond!). Find something that works for you, and if you do... Don't imagine that it'll work for everyone, or even anyone, else! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 01:12 PM

Raedwulf said, "The 'balanced diet', previously mentioned, is mostly the result of one influential scientist getting the ear of the USDA in the 50's."

I agree. The balanced diet concept was a good start but I think it should be re-evaluated as nutritional studies bring more evidence.

As for guinea pigs in diet studies, someone I knew, by naming a specific well-known diet, used to justify eating high fat, high meat-based protein meals with very little vegetables or fruit but it appeared that he was simply eating what he liked to eat, ignoring the diet's healthy focus on vegetables, fruit and increased plant-based protein, and then was wondering why he wasn't losing weight. He wasn't following the diet as it was proposed by it's author.

I watch a lot of Dr Michael Mosley's health documentaries and one interesting item on Trust Me I'm a Doctor was that eating pasta which has been cooked, cooled and re-heated turns it into a resistant starch.

"So, according to scientist Dr Denise Robertson, from the University of Surrey, if you cook and cool pasta down then your body will treat it much more like fibre, creating a smaller glucose peak and helping feed the good bacteria that reside down in your gut. You will also absorb fewer calories, making this a win-win situation."

.........

"Chris [Dr Chris van Tulleken] was certainly blown away by this finding.

"'We've made a brand new discovery on Trust Me I'm A Doctor', he says, 'and it's something that could simply and easily improve health. We can convert a carb-loaded meal into a more healthy fibre-loaded one instead without changing a single ingredient, just the temperature. In other words our leftovers could be healthier for us than the original meal.'"

This works for potatoes too, so that's good news for me because I love potatoes. I also add potato starch, which is a resistant starch, whenever I cook with flour or in my high-fibre fruit smoothies.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 02:30 PM

A lot of fad diets sell a lot of books by this simple trick: they have the dieter cut out carbohydrates. When the body stores starch, the starch granules are surrounded by water molecules. When the dieter stops eating starch, the body takes the granules out of storage to use for fuel and urinates the water.

Water weighs a lot, so in the first week or ten days of the diet, the dieter sees a wonderful and encouraging loss of weight. S/he tells friends, who all buy the book too.

Some fad diets obscure this process by putting emphasis on what is eaten, rather than what is not eaten. I remember the Beverly Hills diet, which IIRC correctly, had dieters eating lots of pineapple. Everybody talked about the pineapple and about Beverly Hills, and nobody noticed the missing carbs.

The keto diet sounds like the same thing, only with its high fat and protein, more risky than most.

Some diets have you drink a lot of water, so you won't wonder why you are urinating so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 02:42 PM

We do tend to think of a 'diet' as a reduction of intake of something, often for weight reduction but perhaps some other purpose as here.

Covid lockdowns have reduced my weight as I've not been singing in pubs so not drinking beer. Sure lots of folks like a drink at home but that's not been my style since home-brew days when we couldn't afford to drink out.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 05:45 PM

I meant Atkins diet in my last post but I mis-spelled it.

I really think the importance of many diet programs is that they provide a regular check-in. Another way of looking at it would be ritual but the essence is you do not do it without a witness.

Right now and all through the covid era I've been walking a dog daily. That has given me an anchor of exercise that has probably left me healthier than when I sat around in Starbucks typing to you guys (among others).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 05:48 PM

The scepticism you imply is on the nail, leeneia. A great corrective to some of the twaddle we've been served up recently.

Wulfie, the moment has long passed and the spat was skilfully sidestepped days ago. Live with it and take a low-fat chill pill.

If you're a good weight and you feel healthy and your guts are healthy, you're probably doing it right. If you have a medical condition indicating the need for an alteration in diet, you should be consulting a real doctor (not the guy down the gym or your personal trainer or your best mate or a diet book). If you just need to lose weight, eat less food. That's me, that last one. But God, I love my grub and I'm weak...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:21 PM

Well I've just been casting my ever-sceptical eye over this "resistant starch" thing.

First, the study that started all the fuss and which was mentioned here was carried out on ten volunteers.


Ten.


Second, the conditions under which the study was carried out were unnatural. Empty stomachs, just pasta with unspecified sauce, etc. Plenty of potential confounding factors there, as we say...

Third, the study was carried out over a very short period of time.

Now I'm not for a minute saying that there's nothing in this, but let's just say that there's barely enough here for a hypothesis, let alone a scientific conclusion. Looking at various reports on this (the Good Housekeeping one being about the most confused), you'd think that eating pasta (spuds, bread and rice too, the staples of most of the world for hundreds of years if not millennia) suddenly releases a huge rush of sugar into your blood. Well it can't, because neither pasta nor the others contain much if any actual sugar at all, and you have to digest the starch first using an enzyme released into your gut, and that takes time, and you can't absorb it very quickly. A small rise in blood sugar after a meal is the most natural thing in the world, and lots of the stuff in the meal apart from the pasta will be contributing to it. It's normal. It's true enough that high-fibre versions, wholewheat pasta and brown rice for example, take longer for the gut to break down into absorbable sugars. I'll tell you what, if you want a sudden sugar rush, just drink a nice big glass of pure, freshly-squeezed organic orange juice: plenty of immediate sugar calories there! So "healthy"!

Healthy people can easily cope with the digestive speed of the starches in pasta, spuds, rice and bread. There may definitely be something of value in this for people with diabetes, and the usual caveats for people with gluten intolerance, etc., apply. I won't be relying on reheated pasta for my fibre or to absorb fewer calories. If I can be stronger-willed than I currently am I'll eat foods that I know are high in fibre, and I'll eat less food.

By the way, purely subjectively and from an aesthetic point of view, reheated pasta is horrible. It will inevitably be overcooked and will likely go all doughy. Cold pasta, as in those little pots of penne with added gloop, I find it to be thoroughly unappetising and I won't touch it. The Italians are a proud people and they understand pasta. Cooked in water as salty as the Mediterranean Sea until exactly al dente and no more. Never leave the kitchen while the pasta pan is on. Tossed with sauce and not too much of it, never a heap of ragu dumped on top of a pile of spaghetti. Eaten with a fork only, preferably slurped. So we non-Italians murder it by over-cooking it, letting it go cold and, worst of all, reheating it into a soft, collapsing mess.

Let them eat cake...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:44 PM

I doubt we will hear from this Mudcat member on this thread --
I would be happily surprized if we did --
but there is a keto-diet adherent
who sticks to the declutter and fitness thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:06 PM

Resistant Starch as a complementary treatment for type 2 diabetes

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:23 PM

Resistant starch and energy balance: impact on weight loss and maintenance

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:27 PM

Resistant starch facts

Resistant starch studies

Effects of resistant starch interventions on circulating inflammatory biomarkers: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:28 PM

"Everything you see, I owe to pasta"

- Sophia Loren

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 11:38 PM

Food fight...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:06 AM

I'm seventy this year (you wouldn't think it and I don't feel it), been through a whole kaleidoscope of ups and downs in life (mostly ups, though still to win the lottery) and I'd like to mainly enjoy what I have left if I can and if my bad back will allow. Very high on my list of indispensable aids in that quest is eating pasta dishes. I can't cook complex things with lots of spices and other exotic ingredients without cocking it up. But I can cook twenty or thirty pasta dishes to Shaw-perfection (might not be to yours) and the vast majority are quick, simple and full of those nutrients that we westerners living in miserable, damp climates in Northern Europe enviously link to "the Mediterranean diet." I like to think that I'm respectful of the Italian heritage of this cuisine (though I doubt whether Italians would care a jot). It's extra virgin olive oil, fresh herbs (never dried basil), sliced garlic (never minced up), no mixing garlic and onion in the same dish, no cheese on fish dishes... and, most crucially, the pasta cooked spot-on al dente. It took me years to be able to confidently get that right every time.

So I can't listen to advocates of letting pasta go cold and warming it back up again. I'd rather hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete. Cold spuds and rice are very useful ingredients, and I use them a lot, but decidedly not because they contain "resistant starch." I don't give a damn. I've been through life hearing various gurus condemning all manner of things that, up to that point, I've been enjoying. So I'm not listening to this guff about my perfectly al dente pasta giving me a sugar rush or leaving me feel hungry. I've never eaten pasta that has ever resulted in those feelings, and something very primitive and deep inside me tells me that it's decent and healthy eating. I'll listen to the science when it comes along (I might even read Helen's links and come to regret this post, at least in parts, though I'm serially averse to reading uncommented-on, unannotated links in what's supposed to be a discussion forum).

In m'humble!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:12 AM

...And I once stayed for a week in Marina Grande in Sorrento, where the film "Pane, Amore e..." starring Sophia Loren was shot. And ate pasta every day!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:52 AM

Sailed to Capri from Sorrento. Best pizza I ever had was in Anacapri, the high end of the island.
Have stocked up on pasta in lockdown but it's made of peas, lentils, edame beans etc. (and wholewheat, spelt)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 06:10 AM

We went to Capri from Maiori on a small open boat (I think there were about eight or nine on board at the most). It was a blazing hot day in early September 2013 and it was a fabulous trip. I'd been to Capri as a teenager on a school trip and the years peeled away as we rode to the top on the funicular. The coffee and ice cream were a bit of a ripoff! We took one of those terrifying narrow buses to Anacapri. It was a lovely day but it was heaving and it was just a day trip. I've heard since that the best thing to do is to fix an overnight stay in Anacapri, when the island is transformed into a different and more pleasant place. Next time...!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 07:14 AM

Well I've looked at those links.

The first one is largely concerned with diabetes or pre-diabetes. The sample size was very small. Studies aimed at ameliorating the health of sufferers from diabetes are probably the most useful aspect of all this. There was one study, significantly with a larger sample size (69), that found that resistant starch had no effect on the appetite or food intake of prediabetic people. It's in a link within a link within the link, a bit buried, as with the good that's oft interréd with the bones, to misquote the Bard... I'll say no more about that as I wouldn't want to be accused of confirmation bias...As for the rest of us...

The second one is a lengthy meta-analysis largely concerned with data collected from studies on rats. I gave up the will to live on this one after reading the first 19 of 32 pages. Which means I may have missed something, I suppose...

The last three links consist of two popular science reports which are, to be kind, watered down somewhat for mass consumption. The third is by far the most rigorous of any in these links. It's a meta-analysis of a number of studies from the last thirty years. Whilst the report is far from dismissive, the conclusion of the author kind of says it all:

The current meta-analysis indicated that RS intake can improve some inflammatory biomarkers. More research, with large sample sizes and accurate design is recommended.

It's impossible to draw sound conclusions from studies using short time periods and small sample sizes. They must be regarded as initial studies which may (or may not) indicate that more thorough, and far more expensive, research is required. I'm not being dismissive, and I acknowledge that the studies done so far may be significant for people with or at risk of diabetes. As for those of us not in that category, I can't see any more than just a passing interest being called for. I'm biased, of course, because I like my pasta to be al dente.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 10:33 AM

I have figured out some sources of resistant starch because I have to avoid it - sets off attacks of proctalgia fugax (which is more painful than either a heart attack or a blocked gallbladder, from personal comparison). The only thorough survey of its occurrence in foods that I know of is an article about 20 years ago in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, which is impossibly difficult to get hold of. Meanwhile: unripe bananas are really bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 03:57 PM

Another interesting area of study is the gut microbiome which can influence health and psychological well-being in a lot of ways. The most interesting aspect that I have seen in scientific/medical TV programmes and articles is that the microbiome can be changed to a more beneficial balance. One of the ways to do that is by using prebiotics and/or probiotics, resistant starch (assuming that resistant starch does not create problems as mentioned by Jack Campin), eating healthy fibre etc but also for extreme cases by performing "transpoosions", i.e. faecal transplants.

Back in school, I never really knew what I wanted to be when I grew up but as I have progressed through my interesting and varied careers I often think that if I had known about nutritional science and medicine I could have happily followed that path.

Jack, I love green bananas. I can't imagine life without them but as I said to Mrrzy early in this thread, it can be a life-changing nutritional revelation when you find out what triggers a physical or psychological reaction because you then know what foods to avoid or to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 04:40 PM

Probiotics won't do you any harm, except to your wallet. The bacteria therein may not even get past your stomach acid. There's a massive multi-million pound industry which tries to persuade us that our gut health can be improved by drinking small amounts of inexpensively-produced watery cultures. The evidence is thin, and always will be, as these products are classed not as medicines but as foods, which means that they will never be subjected to the rigour of clinical trials. Mmmm, Danone...

Prebiotics are all about substances which we can't digest but which our gut bacteria can. I haven't found any evidence that focusing on weird and wonderful (and expensive) "prebiotics" will do you any more good than seeking out lovely, inexpensive wholefoods that are rich in fibre.   

As for faecal transplants, there is huge money to be made. A shitload, in fact. Whilst anecdotal evidence from a few people looks promising (if you can believe that the poo-recipients are objective and not just weirdos who will try anything, and never admit that they've wasted their money), there has been nowhere near enough research on this for it to be anything like recommended. Still, if anyone feels like jumping the gun, I can provide the required material, at considerable cost, of course, and on the understanding that shipping is at your own risk...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 04:57 PM

The gut microbiome in health and in disease

Human gut microbiome: hopes, threats and promises

The Microbiome

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:25 PM

I figure I don't have any weird problems, and other than a mostly nonexistent bit of MS, I'm healthy. I'n not gonna mess with things. I've eaten active culture yogurt, but I don't think spending megabucks buying bacteria to snack on. Probiotics may be beneficial to some people, but I don't think they'd do anything for me. i tried CBD, and when I couldn't remember, I couldn't tell if I'd taken it. Again, it works like a miracle for some. I
think I'm likely juat a boringly normal boomer.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 05:42 PM

Very sane, Jeri.

The links in the post before yours (again, posted entirely without comment) express doubts about the usefulness of probiotics (and point out that they are a tens-of-billions industry) and strikingly indicate that "prebiotics" (another great word coined in order to get you to think that you have to spend money on exotic stuff) are cheerfully available from common foodstuffs, supplements not needed. It all comes down, as far as I can see, to just being sensible about the balance of foods we eat. Watch your weight, watch the calories (by weighing yourself) and eat a good variety of stuff including goodly amounts of vegetables. And be happy and enjoy life.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 21 - 10:48 PM

Anyone who bothered to read what I have posted before going off half-cocked again would clearly see that I was not recommending expensive supplements. I was referring to prebiotic and probiotic foods including some of the foods I mentioned in my posts earlier in this thread.

The only person who mentioned expensive supplements is you.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 04:42 AM

I was respectful enough to wade through the links you've given, even though you had nothing to say about their content yourself, and tried to pick out the bones in what was was a lengthy and tedious exercise. If you don't think that my interpretation was fair and balanced then let's have yours. You've raised several issues that are at best controversial in scientific terms, and part of the balance in this discussion is to ensure that that is pointed out. Otherwise, it could appear that, by providing what are ostensibly "scientific" links without comment, you support their content and are arguing from authority.

Nutrition is an area in which many people have spotted lucrative potential. We have superfoods, supplements, probiotics, prebiotics and myriad diet books pushed at us constantly, ranging in value from near-science to snake-oil. My point of view is that, here in the West, with the rich and diverse range of foods available to us, most people can get by with little or none of this stuff by following (mindfully) an ordinary, sensible, balanced diet which avoids excesses of anything and which is largely based on fresh, good-quality ingredients. Anyone with a medical issue which indicates particular dietary needs should consult medical professionals, not be vulnerable to falling prey to the moneygrabbing sharks waiting in the wings with their cod science, their fad diets and often harmful (and often expensive) wares. If that cautionary note is dissed here, instead allowing people's cherished fads to go unchallenged, then the discussion is not balanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 05:26 AM

So many baseless assumptions.

Such strong denial, or even defiance of a broad range of scientific studies, analysis and evidence.

Clinging so vehemently to those strongly held, cherished beliefs and opinions.

And yet, you tell us oh-so-often that you hold a science-related qualification.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 06:16 AM

Have you actually read your own links? As I suggested, if my take is not to your liking, let's have yours. You put up so many links without comment, after all. I've put up several substantial posts in which I've made no baseless assumptions and I haven't "denied" any of the science (some of which actually casts many a doubt on what you're advocating: I'm puzzled that you didn't find any of that...wonder why not...). In fact, I've tried to tease out the real science from the fake news. There's plenty of good science there and much of it reflects exactly what I'm saying. Go on, have a read.

The fact is (and fact it is, whether you like it or not), there isn't anywhere near enough settled science to justify any kind of unqualified advocacy of Atkins, keto or any other fad diet, or of prebiotics, probiotics or "superfoods" (a one-time friend of mine couldn't face the world unless he'd placed precisely twenty goji berries on his breakfast cereal). Of course, there's much money to be made from promotion of these things. That alone should get your antennae a-waggling. You don't have to be much of a qualified scientist to be non-gullible. You're aiming at the wrong target if I may say so. And none of this is to say that there's nothing in these things, a point I've repeatedly made, though you probably wish I hadn't. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:07 AM

Mrs G and I tried Atkins many years back. Decided to give up after about 5 days when we discovered we did not have the energy to get up the stairs in Waterstones in Manchester. I am sure eventualy we would have gone into ketosis and started to crack fat as a source of energy but, when you think about it, ketosis may not be a good thing. It is treated as a symptem of illness most of the time and doctors try to correct it!

Steve, you have my sympathies. You have your Helen. I had my Jim. Punfolkrocker has his Dick...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:54 AM

Again, just talking about experience and general reading, and in no way a learned person on this topic.

There is science, medical science, experience, folk wisdom, and folklore.

There is the profit motive.

People are complicated. So complicated that what works for one person does not work for another. And the power of the mind is great enough to make a difference in how the body reacts. Short term AND long term.

I'll never forget a popular entertainer who I thought of as a lightweight doing a show on exercise, which did no harm but had one great observation at the end: "People ask what is the best exercise...the answer remains: THE ONE THAT YOU WILL DO!"

a LOT of this goes for diet. It should have enough science and medical context to fulfill that basic rule we can't get around: You must burn off more calories than you take in. And it needs to be doable FOR YOU. And there needs to be a long term life plan so that it will be effective after the weight loss. Many people are healthier and happier even if they are overweight, because they are at a stable point and they can function.

Very few of us start wise. Most of us are hammered into some form of wisdom through life experience. We learn what works and is right for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 12:33 PM

In the last couple years I've changed from buying ordinary pasta to whole-wheat pasta. I can't tell any difference in the taste or texture, but I hope it's healthier.

The only source is the small Wal-mart food store about a mile away.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 02:13 PM

Steve is showing signs of reactive hypoglycaemia. More complex carbohydrates might help.

Robomatic is right: the problem with specialist diets is their practicality for you. Try excluding nightshades. No question that it can make an enormous difference for some cases of arthritis, and you can verify if they're the problem very easily. But consistent total elimination for years on end takes a gigantic effort: all the logistics of getting food into your mouth needs to change, your social eating patterns have to be totally different, and it's impossibly difficult to explain to people who have no idea what tomatoes, cigarettes, mashed potato and tabasco might have in common.

My wife used to work with this stuff professionally as one of the UK's very few registered dietitians doing food intolerance. Finding the right diet wasn't the issue, the problem was making it feasible for people to follow it. At the extreme - she even had to tell some parents to give up and resign themselves to their child declining into an early death with seizures and mental retardation, because they didn't have a prayer of keeping him on the PKU diet that could have given him a normal life.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 03:23 PM

Some decades ago I was in a situation where I was cooking meals for a child who was allergic to eggs and for medical reasons couldn't eat dairy foods or acidic foods. It was a creative challenge to produce meals which were edible for the whole family yet still fitted in with the child's needs. As I was working full time, I did not have time to create two different dishes for every meal so we all ate the same meals.

As an example, spaghetti bolognese and lasagne were out because of the tomatoes and cheese, not to mention having to check whether the pasta was egg based. Eggs for breakfast, eggs in pancakes or cakes or in vege or salmon fritters, all out. Tomatoes and lemon juice were out. Orange juice was out. Just about every recipe that I tended to cook normally had to be re-thought or abandoned.

Cutting out one type of food is do-able, but cutting out three broad types makes it difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 05:30 PM

I've been taking your advice before you even dished it out, Jack. Dabs, chips and mushy peas tonight. Pasta (spirali bucati) with albacore tuna, nonpareil capers, garlic (sliced, never crushed), parsley and creme fraiche tomorrow. That epic pasta bake that all Italians love (home-made tomato sauce, short pasta, lashings of Parmesan and mozzarella) on Saturday. Pork chop baked with mushrooms, cream and lemon with jacket spuds and green beans on Sunday. Huge wodge of chicken and leek pie with mash and cauliflower on Monday. All interspersed with lots of toast and butties. That should fix it.

I always bear my crosses lightly, Dave. When all around you lose their heads... Did I mention the red wine?   Beautiful Negroamaro down to £6.50 at Mozzers? And if you like white, the Soave Classico down to £5.50 is a thing of great beauty...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:28 PM

So you may not get fat, but you may be a candidate for gout?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:48 PM

Well I'll try to eat it all in moderation. But just look at all the healthy ingredients therein, robo. Tuna, garlic, capers, parsley, tomatoes, onions, extra virgin olive oil, green beans, potatoes unpeeled, lemon, cauliflower...OK, along with a pork chop (which I'll trim), creme fraiche, a bit of cream, chicken, mozzarella, pasta, Parmesan, butter... Good variety, all the vitamins and minerals are in there, omega 3 oils, monounsaturated oil, the works. Resistant starches, haven't a clue and won't fret. Prebiotics, I'll let the gut bugs decide. Plenty of calories, which I have to try to control via portion control and exercise. Good living, and I won't be worriedly consulting any diet books! So what'll give me gout then out of that lot, me, a 69-year-old who's been gout-free all his life?

Hey, and all with no added sugar!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 07:50 PM

I forgot the mushrooms!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:28 PM

I leave Prebiotics to the cows. No carbs allowed me to lose 20lbs easily. After that half portions are required.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 08:51 PM

We have enzymes for digesting starches, starting in the mouth, ending in the small intestine. We have enzymes for breaking complex sugars down into absorbable monosaccharides, which our cells require as their source of energy. The carbohydrates that we don't digest are the fibre we must have for digestive health.

Now I'm not a religious man, but tell me this: if God had intended carbohydrates to be the very spawn of Satan that some of you folks seem to be suggesting it is, then why did he put these mechanisms in place for us to handle them so well and make a gut for us that depends so much on them for its digestive health? Huh??

What I'd suggest is that you should go back to before you lost that 20lb and reflect on why that extra weight was there in the first place, on what you were doing to put it there. You might also reflect on the fact that a gram of fat contains about two and a half times as much energy as a gram of carbohydrate.

Not eating carbs may be a valuable strategy for diabetics and for people with specific intolerances or gut disorders. As for the rest of us, cutting them out completely (as if you could anyway...) is a very risky - and faddy - strategy, and no-one should be pushing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:17 PM

Well in the olden days when we were 'paleo' we were feasting and starving, then someone got the bright idea of growing some of the vegetables and if they didn't want to eat only vegetables, then they could catch and keep small edible animals. As the old Alaska bumper sticker says: "vegetables aren't food...Vegetables are what food eats!"

Of course, all that was before pasta.

I don't know if genetic research has determined when the great apes or their progenitors lost the ability to synthesize their own Vitamin C, but certain primates, bats, and guinea pigs must supplement and most of the way I know of to do it is with fruits, which are full of carbs.

Of course, we have supplements with no cals which can provide the ascorbic acid for those on keto.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:50 PM

Ok calm down y'all, I reiterate - carbs upset my mental health, so I am avoiding them, as I prefer sanity to spaghetti.

I am not advocating anybody else avoid them.

I am curious about people's experiences with avoiding them.

There is no weight control involved.

So complaints relating to weightloss do not apply to the original question.

Repetitions of opinions without experience do not apply either.

All I asked was have you tried this way of eating, and if so, did you like it. Unfortunately the word for This way of eating is Diet, but I clarified that I did not mean weightloss regimen early on.

So back to the original question: have you yourself ever tried to eliminate carbs from your usual food intake, and if so, did you enjoy your usual food, and the way it treated you? If not, then, never mind, no need to post here about how you are not answering the question.

Especially no need to argue with other people, whether they are answering the question or not.

And really no need to tell anybody whose opinion differs from yours that they are wrong.

I now return you to the thread already in progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:09 PM

Thanks Mrrzy,

About 40 years ago I didn't stop eating carbs, I just changed the type of carbs by reducing the amount of white carbs like white rice, white bread, pasta and potatoes and increasing the amount and varieties of vegetables and legumes. Yes, I found that it helped me to lose weight, so I can't really help with your specific question but I found it fairly easy to make the switch to healthier carbs.

Greek salad was a magic bullet for me. I tried it on a day trip to Sydney, liked it, started making it for lunch every day at work and found, serendipitously, that I had lost weight. I was enjoying eating healthy, well-balanced meals and I had the added bonus of losing weight. When I reached my desired weight I just modified my eating plan to a longer term plan.

Since then I have only really gained weight about 20 years ago during a health-related episode which is now under control and whenever I have lost weight, I tend to keep it off. I am at a healthy weight at present, with a good BMI score.

As I said earlier, the concept of a keto diet rings an alarm bell for me because of the high fat aspect. It all depends on how you implement it and I have always consulted my doctor for expert advice before making major health-related changes.

As for fats, my go-to is olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:40 AM

It's horses for courses apropos of oils for me. "Ordinary" olive oil is a no-no for me as it's way too refined. I have two grades of extra-virgin in the house, a less expensive Sicilian one (from Tesco) for cooking (it's bullshit that you shouldn't cook with extra virgin olive oil) and a classier one, either Sicilian or Tuscan, for sprinkling on finished pasta dishes or a pizza, or for salad dressing. For hot frying it's groundnut oil - neutral flavour and a high smoke point. For frying eggs, omelettes and fish, unsalted butter. We have a lovely Cornish source. For roasties, if there isn't enough fat from the meat I might use goose fat or beef dripping. It's gotta be about the end-product for me.

Just a tad naive, Mrrzy, to open up a controversial diet topic and not expect thread drift, huh?

For losing weight it's a great idea to acquaint oneself with the calorie content of different foods and take it from there. It's a start. For suspected food intolerances or for treating diabetes, where a drastic alteration in diet is indicated, proper medical advice is needed. That can't be said too often. Twice in the last two posts now.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:50 AM

So you don't have any comment on the keto diet or low carb diets?

Mrrzy, the OP, has requested that we stick to the original topic. Please respect the wishes of the originator of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:36 AM

If that was aimed at me, cast out the plank...

I've said plenty about keto and low-carb diets to keep everyone unhappy for ages... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:41 AM

From what I can remember of my gym dietitians approved,
strict but effective,
healthfully balanced muscle building and fat loss diet;
which I eventually became bored with after a few years of difficult self-discipline...

NO carbs after 6 p.m.

Go to bed every night suffering pangs of Hunger.

Have willpower or be fat.

Weight training lifestyle for health and fitness is positive and beneficial.
Despite being so puritanicly spartan and boring..

But competition bodybuilders have a self-destructive potentially suicidal streak
when they undertake health damaging rapid fat loss starvation and dehydration regimes in preparation for ripped muscle stage shows and photo shoots.

That is unnatural and in extreme cases lethal.

Particularly for boxers and other martial artists desperate to drastically lose weight overnight
in order to qualify for pre fight weigh-ins ...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 06:26 AM

I've been trawling around the research regarding carbohydrates and mental health (some of it of questionable quality, mainly because of one-track-mindedness and the setting aside of significant confounding factors). The best research is that which seeks actual biochemical mechanisms which may influence brain function. There isn't any settled science as far as I can glean, in fact there's a bit of divergence between the pro-carb and anti-carb arguments. One conclusion that is largely agreed on is that highly-refined carbohydrates (sugars and white flour, for example) are in the "suspects" box - but, as I said, good science requires that we start to explain specific biochemical mechanisms. That's the only way to rule out confounding factors such as the pre-existing physical, physiological and mental state, lifestyle, gender, age and medical history of the people being studied. There's no question that high-GI carbs in large amounts (which are not natural components of the diet, except in small quantities) make blood sugar controlling mechanisms work hard and can cause undesirable ups and downs in that regard. A lot of the research has that as its starting point. I haven't found much convincing evidence that the more complex carbs that release their sugars into the bloodstream more steadily, via digestion and absorption, have had a finger pointed at them by rigorous research. Evidence is thin, and it ill-behoves anyone to advocate diets that rule out complex carbohydrates beyond saying "this seems to have helped me, but it may not apply to you, so seek good advice from medical professionals first..."

I'll keep looking...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:12 AM

It's getting on for 25 years since I started trying to become a dedicated fitness freak.
At my peak I felt and looked good.
Justifiably positive self-esteem
at age 40..
But I wasn't too narcissistic about it.
I never photographed myself, or trained in front of mirrors.
All I have is memories of how I felt to be fitter and stronger.

Now..
Right now, I'm away from home for a week or so taking care of urgent family business..

There is a bloody great big full length bathroom mirror right by the side of the toilet.
Yesterday I caught sight of my naked profile whilst having a pee.

What a shocker. What a huge belly.
Didn't realise it was that bad.
No wonder I can't bend and crouch anymore...!!!

I look like my dad did when I vowed never to end up looking like my dad..

That was when he was diagnosed as diabetic
due to his unhealthy factory workers lifestyle.
He snuffed it from a massive heart attack at 69.
I'm 62...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:33 AM

I've been trying to find a list of "culprit" high-GI carbs. Different sources are all over the place - but white pasta seems generally to come out "middling..."

Yeah, the full-length mirror is the enemy of the older man all right. My advice is always to look full-on, never side-view...

And why do some people insist on having a mirror over the bog so that men have to look at themselves peeing...sex discrimination I calls it...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 09:10 AM

The high-GI food I have to avoid is cornflakes. Have them for breakfast and I get hypoglycaemic in the early afternoon unless I eat far too much in between. I know of other high-GI foods but that one is uniquely awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM

Well, I was being really really rigorous because I had a doctor visit coming up. Then doc gets sick [how dare!] and appt put off for 10 days! Yikes! So I relax, put a tsp of maple syrup in my tea, drink some fruit juice, have a Kir... Not all at once, over about 4 days...

And look! I started losing patience with the whiners and would-be line-jumpers at the vax clinic where I volunteer, with thread drifters [not a crime!], with friends and family... Think I will go back to what I used to call Rigor but which has just mutated into Preference.

And I didn't even have spaghetti. All my relaxation was a bit of simple carbs here and there, which I had hitherto noted as making me *shake* but not get upset over trifles.

Now, it is also quite possible that my mental health is just fading because I have a mental illness, that maybe my [so far year-long] post-hospitalization remission is ending. If going back to Really No Carbs puts It back into my equanimity [a reach, that phrasing, I know], then great. I shall report back.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:40 AM

Cornflakes came out absolute tops of one GI list I found. They have the same effect on me, Jack. I got round it slightly by chopping a banana into the bowl and putting a dollop of Yeo Valley on top. But now I just avoid 'em. I can't stand that starving-to-death feeling at 11.15 am. I'm a bit off breakfast cereals at the moment. I suppose the spray-on vitamins are at least of some use. Oatibix are low sugar and reliably filling, but it takes about four gallons of milk per three of them before you can stop them setting like concrete in the bowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 11:37 AM

Mrrzy, the three foods you mention are sugary, so maybe it's sugar which is the culprit for your mood swings, more than just plain carbs. Orange juice, even if it has no added sugar, still has fruit sugars which are quickly absorbed.

Although, I remember that in one of your early posts you also mentioned the keto is considered beneficial for seizures, so two different health issues.

Anyway, your sugar hit might have been exaggerated because you have cut down on sugar and then you threw three sugary hits into your body in a relatively short period of time. It might be worth considering eating a piece of fruit for a slower, more balanced release of sugar into your system.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:19 PM

Probably so, Helen.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:39 PM

When I was in high school my Mum was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes so we all cut back on sugar, gradually at first and then more completely over time. After I adjusted to the very low sugar lifestyle a sugary drink or cake would be a sudden shock to my system whereas, before cutting back, I would not have even noticed the sugar. I still don't eat much sugar and I don't miss it.

If you are interested, I have a couple of recipes for a fairly quick and easy orange and almond cake or chocolate brownies - both using processed almonds instead of flour. The cake has a few eggs so it is higher protein than the usual cake recipes. I never put much sugar in them. You could make them and freeze slices for sugar-hits. In case of sugar-hit emergencies, just open the freezer.

Different fruit can be used for the cake. The original recipe I saw was an apple cake.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:44 PM

We gave up fruit juice years ago. Instead, we eat an orange or a couple of tangerines each every day (there is so much tomato, green veg and potato in what we eat that we can definitely easily do without the citrus vitamin C, though fresh fruit contains fibre whereas juice contains next to none, and we like 'em). Fresh orange juice ("not from concentrate") contains about the same amount of sugar as, or even a bit more than, coca-cola. I'm a bit suspicious of grapefruit and grapefruit juice. I've heard things...and, let's face it, I can do without.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:49 PM

By fruit juice, I mean a splash in a glass of seltzer. Not a glass of fruit juice.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 01:55 PM

Is that fizzy water?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 03:35 PM

That’s what I’ve always understood ‘seltzer’ to mean, Steve - carbonated water.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 09:43 PM

I am someone for whom the keto diet or similar is perfect. I do just great on high(er) fat..i could eat a pound of butter a day and not gain weight. One muffin a day and I probably would skyrocket. I am overweight by between twenty and thirty pounds. Could knock that back and will. Just had a perfect physical..except for toenails..TMI.

People keep saying if you go off keto you will gain weight. Of course you will. That means the keto type of diet is what you need. It is not for everyone. There was a book out years ago about body type..not blood type. Four types of diets worked for people..and I expect most were of North American heritage. one type did great with vegetarian, high carb. One did well with the "standard american diet." The kind that everyone is supposed to favor. The third group needed more protein and fat but lighter proteins like chicken and fish. The fourth group are the ones that they said became diabetic. They needed darker, heavier fats and proteins..red meat, sausage, butter, etc. If they do not eat like this, they tend to be diabetic. They..I..can not process carbohydrates. It sort of depends on what your ancestors thrived on..if you have ancestors from one place. I am Irish and Scots and other British and Dutch. Way back when there was lots of protein..Irish often were herdswomen. In the olden days they did not live on potatoes.

So they say to try a low carb diet for two weeks. If you feel ghastly, have digestive problems, stop it. Try a high carb diet in a bit. If you feel great, lose weight, that diet is for you.

If you feel great, as I do on low carb, higher fat, you will know pretty soon. Probably don't cold turkey but cut back continuously for a while. You should lose weight, and all test results should improve. This means this type of eating is for you. It is not for the others. If you feel great, you lose excess weight, you have more energy, your medical indexes are improving...you are OK'd for this...but you have to eat this way, more or less, always. You don't get to lose twenty pounds and go back to what made you gain twenty pounds in the first place. Trial and error...if you are eating the right foods, you will know it by how you feel and look. Guess what else..you might marry someone with different metabolism and ethnic heritage. you might eat differently. your children might have different needs. One might inherit your Nigerian metabolism and another your Korean and another your English. So you might all better learn how to cook.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:14 AM

The evidence for the long-term benefits of "keto" is thin and there are risks. It's very important that anyone who thinks they have a medical need to drastically alter their diet should consult a doctor. That would include anyone who thinks they "can't handle carbs." That strongly suggests a medical condition that needs professional attention. Otherwise, keto is just another fad diet, and not a very safe one. I'm posting this to counterbalance your enthusiastic advocacy, which I feel is somewhat misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:31 AM

I'm currently staying on my own at a family home,
while I clear it out and close it down.

Right now my primary diet is frozen microwave ready meals,
plain salted crisps, and Quavers;
as I finish off whatever food was left in the house..

Healthily balanced by one apple and banana per day.

There's some tins of corned beef and various other canned items in the larder,
with expired best by dates going back 3 or 4 years..

.. and a bar of cadbury's chocolate which expired in 2019..

.. hhhhhhmmm.. if it was a post zombie apocalypse I'd have to risk eating anything I can find...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:41 AM

D'Adamo's "blood type diet" is pseudoscientific hokum.

Something not mentioned yet: substituting fruit and fruit sugars for sucrose is a very bad idea for some people. There are several different kinds of fructose intolerance, some of which can lead to life-threatening psychiatric or medical emergencies. None is very common but there are a lot of them and they're often misdiagnosed.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:45 AM

What makes you think that people who post in this thread are not consulting their doctor? Have you asked the question, or are you just leaping to conclusions again?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:55 AM

Just under a year ago I cut out eating raw tomato with evening meals.
Trial and error to see if it had any relation to my IBS.

There does seem to have been an improvement.
But I can't quantify or prove it..

Throughout my life I've had to test cutting out various foods,
without any clear indication that it made a significant difference to eczema and gut problems...???

I stopped taking milk in tea nearly 40 years ago.
I just prefer it that way now.

I gave up cheddar cheese for a few years,
to test if it was an eczema trigger;
and, it was also on the banned list while taking gym training seriously..

That proved a sacrifice too far..
I'm a West country boy I needs my daily cheddar...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 06:06 AM

mg, what is a "standard american diet"?

My imagined version of it involves ham and eggs and pancakes and maple syrup (all on the same plate) for breakfast; burger or hot dog and fries with ketchup, washed down with coca-cola and/or milkshake, for lunch; and in the evening, T-bone steak with fries, or a barbecue, followed by apple pie and cream squirted from a can.
So plenty of protein and fats, but plenty of carbs as well.
I know the recipe thread comes up with many other suggestions of what Americans eat, but I rather think most mudcatters are not really "standard americans".
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM

pfr, the child I referred to earlier had an egg allergy, eczema and asthma. Cutting out the acid foods was to help with the eczema and cutting out dairy foods was to help with the asthma. That was based on advice given to me by his father. It appeared to be working because he had very little eczema and no asthma attacks in the two years that I knew him.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 09:33 AM

Jos, I think that pretty much sums up the standard American diet, but you left out a few things:

Boxed mac&cheese
Pasteurized processed American cheese food
Cheeze Whiz [worse than cream from a can]
Heavily sugared breakfast cereal
Processed meats
Processed meal kits like Hamburger Helper, ShakeNbake
Cake mixes
Recipes that say Only 3 Ingedients but one is canned condensed soup
Instant Rice
...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 09:49 AM

Most doctors know essentially nothing about nutrition. They get about two hours' lectures on it during an entire medical degree course. And only specialists will know anything about food intolerance and special dieta. Try finding one.

Dietitians are not much better. The standard text, by Bryony Thomas, used to cover diets for specific medical conditions but eliminated all that in the current edition. It seems to be intended to teach people how not starve patients in hospitals and nursing homes, and no more than that.

"See your doctor" isn't a lot of help.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 08:47 PM

Thanks Donuel.

When I was grading undergraduate papers/essays, I would be awarding marks on papers which showed effective research or information gathering processes, effective evaluation and analysis of the facts, evidence and the review of other research, a good proposition of the theory or proposal in the paper, good evaluation and explanation of that proposal, good proposal and explanation of the process chosen for the study, good deductive logic and clear evaluation of whether the initial proposal of the paper was proved correct or whether further questions were raised and further study may be required.

Opinions and beliefs for the proposed study could be explained within the introductory part of the paper, but if opinions and beliefs were not sustained by the outcomes of the proper rigorous study, then they had no place in the final conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 02:42 PM

If I am considering starting a specific diet, I read the book or the information which is authorised by the originator of the diet (i.e. not just garbled information on social media) or there may be information available on TV, like Michael Mosley's programmes. (That is how I heard about the 5:2 Fast diet.)

I make my decision to start the diet based on whether the diet has been scientifically studied, the proposed health benefits and possible pitfalls, the specific health condition(s) which may be addressed and most importantly, whether the recommended foods are healthy and balanced, with a focus on vegetables, healthy proteins including legumes, and good fibre intake.

That is my personal list of criteria. I don't have any specific health conditions to worry about but I do need to make sure that the diet is heart healthy and not likely to adversely affect cholesterol levels.

I also evaluate the reasoning behind the proposed diet. Back in the '80's when I read the Dr Atkins diet book I thought there was some scientific reasoning behind it and Atkins had studied diet participants and their health outcomes over a significant period of time. To me, there seemed to be a good scientific basis for the diet.
It was also controversial at the time, and Atkins has revised the diet based on further outcomes from studies.

One especially controversial proposal in the Atkins diet at the time was that sugar has crept into almost everything we eat and that products marketed as low-fat and healthy often have a higher sugar content to make it taste better, so when buying low-fat yoghurt, for example, it helps to compare the sugar content with other products.

Most of the diets out there which are proposed on good scientific principles also recommend exercise and a lot of them recommend portion control.

Personally I tend to avoid diets which push only one food type, or which appear to have little or no scientific study to back it up. As an example, I read the book about the blood type diet when it was first published because people I met had been talking about it. I wasn't impressed with the reasoning behind it, it seemed to have no scientific basis, and the division of which foods were appropriate for each blood type seemed to be randomly allocated. I don't know anyone who seriously tried it, and my final deduction - i.e. this is just my opinion - was that the author just wanted to make money from the book, scanned the diet types on the market, came up with something completely new and started flogging it on the market, on TV, in the media. That's just my opinion but it's based on what I read in the book.

As a weight loss diet, I would not try the keto diet, but as Mrrzy said early in this thread it has been studied as a diet to help with seizures so on that basis, I think it may have benefits.

I looked at the keto diet in more detail after reading this thread and I personally would not use it for weight loss. I have had success, back in the '80's with the Atkins diet, but more recently I have used the principles of the 5:2 Fast diet, the CSIRO diet based on a healthy balance of food, and diets which help with balancing the gut microbiome. All of these diets have similar principles, but each one has a specific approach and the principles of each are not in conflict so they all work together fairly well, in my own experience.

I am just a study of one person, but if each person who tries a diet looks at it critically, keeps monitoring health effects in consultation with medical or nutritional people, and has good outcomes, then a diet can be beneficial.

So, mg, your information on your experience with the keto diet is valid. If it works for you, then more power to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 03:46 PM

I just found this:

CSIRO Diet Review 2021 "Scientifically Proven Weight Loss Solution"

Caution: this review is on a website owned by a food company but I just read the review and it appears to be well written and presenting a balanced view.

I bought the book about 10 years ago. It's not necessary to pay for the diet which is fairly expensive. Just buy the book. And there are also plans for specific health issues e.g. diabetes, gut health, heart health etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 08:50 PM

I read that as the CRISCO diet and burst out laughing. Then I reread it.

Then I saw Scientifically Proven Weight Loss Solution and burst out laughing all over again!

But I am not trying to lose weight, just to stay sane, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 09:45 PM

Well, laughter is good medicine so I'm pleased I could help. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 10:49 PM

Anyway, you wanted a high fat keto diet, so maybe Crisco is just what you were looking for.

I know the CSIRO diet is a weight loss diet but I just think it's a good healthy eating plan and it could be adapted as a good basis to the keto concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 03:22 AM

Eat insect protein or die? Really??

Cherry picking the reportage again. Binary brain?

The guy was a medical student, resourceful and knew his fate, or the one he was diagnosed with. You have to watch the video to see a man giving a balanced appraisal and compare it with an evangelistic vegan (for instance) to test the veracity of the guy's words. And you would side with "the guy is genuine" until proven otherwise.

And years ago I saw a series of adverts in a science/technology magazine aimed at reducing heart attacks etc. The strap line was "Listen to your body"

And that is just what that guy was doing. It informed the progress with his diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 05:20 AM

The company website which had the review of the CSIRO diet has no connection with the CSIRO. Someone from the company was reviewing the diet. And in my post I advised that the company reviewing the diet was a food company.

CSIRO, in case you are wondering, which you aren't because you don't ask questions and you don't appear to do proper research and review of information, is the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation, an Australian Government agency responsible for scientific research.

Perhaps you would like to research that - in a fair and balanced manner instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 08:42 AM

Yeah, I did think the Crisco thing was a high-fat suggestion...

But it might be nice to eat cheeses again.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 02:56 PM

Dr Atkins died after falling on ice. He had a heart history of cardiomyopathy. I think caused by a virus. It is I'm not positive he did or did not have a heart attack. But everyone please research this and make sure you have accurate information.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 03:08 PM

Thanks mg.

There has been a lot of misinformation about Dr Atkins and his controversial diet since the book was first published. My biggest source of annoyance about that is the majority of the people spreading the misinformation have never read the whole book or the complete diet information before forming an opinion and telling the world what they think. It's even easier to spread misinformation now because of the internet and social media.

As an ex-librarian, the spreading of false information is, in my opinion, almost a "crime against humanity". Sorry, I'm exaggerating a bit, but it is irresponsible and can have negative and in some cases serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:56 PM

Mods, please check out that Dr Atkins died several days after having a heart attack! You seem to be rather intent on leaving unbalanced information here. Don't you think that this at least should be known about a cardiologist guru who promoted, and got very rich from, a high-fat diet??

---

No No heart attack. He had cardiomyopathy, probably caused by a virus. According to Wikipedia: "Nine days prior to his death, Atkins fell and hit his head on an icy New York sidewalk. At New York's Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he was admitted on April 8, he underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into a coma and died from complications. He spent nine days in intensive care before dying on April 17, 2003" -Mod/factchecker

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 08:08 PM

Opinion and misinformation not based on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 09:23 PM

From the CrossFit article:

"Low-carb and keto diets are currently surging in popularity. Many of Atkins’ claims about the superiority of his diet for weight loss are now being validated, and new research is showing ketogenic diets to be an effective treatment for Type 2 diabetes and a variety of other metabolic disorders. Low-carb diets are proving beneficial in ways unimaginable to Atkins’ critics. We’re advancing toward a new landscape in nutrition, and Atkins deserves his fair share of the credit, for he remained steadfast despite tremendous pressure to give in to the mob mentality driving fat hysteria."

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 11:29 PM

they say he died weighing around 258 pounds. However, on his hospital admission after falling on the ice, he weighed 195 pounds. So they say. Massive weight gain in about nine days due to fluids.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 11:35 PM

Mg, the crossfit article quoted his wife who said that he was given fluids while he was in a coma so his weight on his death was significantly higher than his weight on admission to hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:33 AM

Well, we can all cherrypick. If you think Atkins is good for you, great, go for it. But don't come here singing its praises and advocating it for overweight people. If you would rather skirt round the murky and occasionally suspicious details of his later-life physical health and death, grand, but just remember that the truth was deliberately hidden by his family.   Overweight people are overweight because they don't work off as many calories as they take in. That's a kind way of saying that they eat too much and are relatively physically inactive. So you advocate a high-fat diet for such people. I call that just a tad irresponsible, frankly, when what you should be advocating FIRST is an overall reduction in food intake whilst maintaining a balanced diet (NOT a dirty term and NOT a last resort!). Atkins made many millions by promoting his diet. What's left of his company isn't interested in it these days and we have a massive obesity epidemic. Whatever else contributes to that, it certainly isn't because we are not eating enough fat.       Be rational and dig deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:55 AM

Reading the article you posted would've been rational. You're the one doing the cherry-picking.
You're trying too hard to find some excuse to go after Mrrzy, and desperation never comes off well.

After reading the CrossFit article, I've learned things. I knew the Atkins diet worked, but I didn't know what it's long-term effect, or what its effects on other body chemistry issues would be. So thanks to Steve for making me aware of something that probably accidentally said the opposite of what he thought it did, and filled out those points.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 01:19 PM

This article is the one quoted by Jeri on 24 Feb 21, 09:23 PM

The Death of Dr. Atkins By Tyler Hass July 3, 2020

A Google search of

Crossfit Dr Atkins

returns a lot of interesting articles.

I'm reading this one - It’s the insulin resistance, stupid: Part 3
By Prof. Timothy Noakes - it's a bit long - but an interesting account of how Dr Atkins researched possible solutions to obesity

Just to get back to the original topic of this thread, a Google search of

Crossfit keto

returns a lot of results too.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:38 PM

if he was 195 pounds when he entered the hospital following his fall, would that be considered overweight? I don't know his height, musculature etc. He died at around 258 pounds, which seems it would definitely fall into the overweight category but it seems to be explained by fluid retention in the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:58 PM

To be fair to both of us, Steve Shaw, I have often felt that you "go after me" and you have upset me, sometimes badly and not infrequently, in so doing.

However, now that I am fairly carb-free (the pee stick says I am in ketosis! Yay!) I have more equanimity. And I don't hold grudges. But it is because of that, that I try to point out when we agree on things, to preemptively prevent you from coming after me again.

I don't think Helen's complaints were entirely baseless, either.

And I really don't think it is the mod's job to fact-check this forum! Really not! You have a question about who is telling a truth, look it up yourself, you the reader! Post your findings if they do contradict, and back down from your accusations if you're wrong. You know, like a grownup.

And, like grownups, remember that if someone disagrees with your *opinion* they are not *wrong* - your opinion is not a truth. It is your opinion. Steve Shaw, this is an issue I have had with you individually.

But back to the keto thing: I don't think I have had any of the weird symptoms of ketosis... I don't smell acetone on my breath (but I live alone), I have not felt ill or fluish (yeah, I know, I don't *look* fluish), so, fine. My regular doc keeps pushing back my regular appt, which is annoying because I was being rigorous for the checkup, then it got postponed a week, ok, grumble, but then it got delayed another month and yikes, not planning on being careful for *that* long.

And I like having equanimity.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:02 PM

I can’t help but wonder how he managed to ‘retain’ 60-plus lbs of fluid in the space of, what, a week? That’s a lot of fluid. Can it really be factual? (That’s a genuine question by the way - I’d be very interested to hear from someone who actually knows if that’s a likely scenario)?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:04 PM

Well done, Mrrzy. Keep that equanimity going strong!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 10:36 PM

There's a Mark Twain tale, by way of Hal Holbrook, that his doctor told him he had to cut down on smoking and eating and drinking and swearing to improve the state of his health. Mark Twain said he couldn't cut down on them.

The doctor said "why not"
"Because I lack the will power. I can cut them out entirely, but I can't cut down on them!"

the doctor told him to cut down on them entirely. Once he felt better, Mark Twain started them up again.

I had a similar experience on the low calorie, very low carb, low fat diet. As long as I rigidly adhered, I lost weight like I was on an elevator. There were protein and vitamin supplements and I had to drink a great deal of water. It was tough going through the supermarket. All I was there for was some meat and cruciform vegetables. Oh, and as much lettuce and cabbage as I wanted. I was in ketosis, but once in, my mind functioned well and I don't recall any special breath problems. I do recall having no spare energy, none. I would make myself get to my floor via stairs, but I didn't do so with brisk enjoyment. Either of those. On the other hand, I found myself fitting into sizes of clothes I hadn't been into in many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:20 AM

My friend and I have often discussed that, Robomatic, coming to the conclusion that we are good at abstinence but crap at moderation. It's either a gallon of beer or none!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:46 AM

Eat what you like but don't swallow.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:35 AM

Cruciform veg! That cracked me up!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 01:12 PM

A friend gave me a Keto Bite, "double dark chocolate cookie dough." It's a block of "candy", less than 2" across and about 5/8 inches thick. In other words, dessert if you are dieting.

It looked delicious but had no taste whatever. In texture, it seemed like eating window putty. Its first four ingredients were cashews, palm oil, tapioca and chocolate chips. There were lots of other ingredients, but I figure they are not important.

In its 25 grams, this little treat contains 15% of one's total daily fat and 23% of saturated fat. That's almost one-fourth. I made sure my friend took the remaining bars home.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 07:31 PM

Yeah, I saw some keto ice cream bars... Chemical, chemical, fake sugar, other fake sugar, blecch.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 09:37 AM

Mark Twain said he would not quit smoking because if he did he would have no cargo to throw overboard when the ship was actually sinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 01:18 PM

A significant part of low carb diets is being aware of the hidden sugars in processed foods.

This page has a description of a documentary called
The Sugar Conspiracy

..........

"Regardless of how healthy or simple people tried to keep their diet, the inevitability that their kitchen pantries and fridges were stockpiled with invisible but ubiquitous sugar raised significant alarm for health professionals and government.

"But this alarm was smothered by a blanket of savvy PR tactics and multibillion dollar campaigns to silence critics of the food industry. As the investigation in the documentary The Sugar Conspiracy reveals, sugar proponents used methods similar to those employed by tobacco companies defending their products decades earlier.

"In 1967, a study into the effects of sugar on heart disease risk factors was initially funded by the International Sugar Research Foundation (ISRF). But when results showed that high-sugar diets led to higher levels of fats in the blood, the ISRF withdrew funding and insisted the results remain secret. Yudkin had also discovered a significant relationship between sugar consumption and coronary disease. His experiments convinced him that it was in fact sugar, not saturated fat that was a greater danger in raising the risk of heart disease.

"But the medical establishment continued to insist that it was fat, not sugar, that must be decreased to ensure good health. Yudkin’s assertions were labelled fictional, eccentric and unproven by fellow academics and sugar industry spokespeople."

.............

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 01:52 PM

Helen, your post interested me so I decided to look further into the question of sugar leading to fat in the blood. I found a page from the University of California at San Francisco, and the page is quoting the Royal Society of New Zealand.

Here's the only info connecting sugar to blood:

"Fructose is also taken up into the blood from the gut, but in this case, the liver serves as a pre-processing organ that can convert fructose to glucose or fat. The liver can release the glucose and fat into the blood or store it as glycogen or fat deposits..."

Makes me glad we have cut our sugar consumption way down at our house.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 02:28 PM

Hi leeneia,

There's not a lot of sugar or processed foods in our house either. It's the hidden sugar in processed foods which are a big danger if you don't check the labels.

In Australia, we had a major COVID 19 lockdown for a couple of months from March last year and because we were cooking more and eating out less, I lost weight. Most of the people I say that to, including my doctor, usually laugh and say that I'm the only person they know who lost weight instead of gaining weight in the lockdown. We were cooking meals with lots of vegetables and legumes and whole foods. A lot of other people were getting takeaway food from the big, well-known fast food chains - or maybe they should be renamed the fat-food chains.

Also, a couple of years ago a little girl in a beautiful party dress knocked on our door on Halloween and I had to tell them that we don't have sweets and treats in our house. The next year the local school made it a rule that the only houses the trick-or-treaters could go to were the ones with Halloween decorations up so I don't have to disappoint them any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 28 Feb 21 - 10:47 PM

I read this book and it was very interesting:

Sweet Poison by David Gillespie

David Gillespie also wrote a very useful book called Taming Toxic People which is off-topic for this thread. Or is it? :-D

---

Toxicity is going around. Steve voluntarily left this thread (after many of his posts were deleted), and I'll ask you to stay out of the vaccine thread (where several of your posts were deleted) if you're simply going to criticize him. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 04:54 AM

Leaving Mudcat after 25 years. Thanks for the memories and the fun times and friendship. All over now. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 06:39 AM

Don't slam the door...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 09:03 AM

What just happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 10:38 AM

Helen: if you are still reading this you can find me under my own name on FB, Twitter or Telegram and by email at [e-mail]. I don't know your name and have no way to contact you myself.

I have blocked Dave on FB for that last remark and would have done the same on any social forum where it was possible for anyone else in the same gang. I don't t give bullies a second chance. I will just act on Mudcat as if Steve doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 11:03 AM

You need to take more water with it if you thought that was bullying, Jack. I will say the same to anyone storming off in a huff. Or carrying out pointless public 'blocks'. Either do something or don't. In either case don't make a song and dance of it. No skin off my nose either way but being a Diva doesn't become anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 12:08 PM

The main problem here at Mudcat is, and has been, personal squabbles that interfere with discussion on a thread. IT'S NOT PERSONAL, IT'S PUBLIC.
So if Jack wants to block Dave on Facebook, it's his business, and people (at least me) don't benefit from hearing about it. It's not Mudcat. It's just plain juvenile and snotty.

The only people who get their memberships yanked around here, no matter what they say or how they try to justify it, are those who engage in constant personal attacks.

Drop it.

Read the FAQ, and drop it here.
(or expect deletion)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 12:18 PM

Thanks, Jeri. You put across my point far more succinnctly

Relevent sections on Mudcatiquette - Here

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Mar 21 - 07:52 PM

Accchhhh, these pop-up adverts.

Here I was, reading the posts about the keto diet,
and suddenly there before my eyes
was a pop-up peddling Viagra ...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 02:37 AM

Well, I have heard that Viagra does cause pop ups. And the adverts say it is the ke(y)to greater pleasure...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 03:31 AM

Doesn't mean much in itself but confirms some of the problems for the heart with a keto diet:

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/keto-diets-cause-scarring-of-heart-tissue-and-inhibit-mitochondria-production-in-rats/

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: meself
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 01:43 PM

Funny - I came onto this thread yesterday just after watching a video on youtube about the wonders of the keto diet - and, you know, when you're a dullard in matters of biochemistry, etc., you're kind of vulnerable to seeming experts. Reading this thread - apart from the unpleasantness - was something of a tonic - which is to say, that I appreciate the effort and thought put into some of its posts, whatever the motivation. I didn't skip breakfast this morning, which had been my original, brief, plan ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 07:27 PM

There was a Nova episode called: "The Truth About Fat". It mentioned the case of a television show called "The Biggest Loser" where many overweight to severely obese people lost weight on a near competitive basis. One of the people is interviewed by Nova, he lost more than half his body weight going from 400 plus pounds to something like 180.

Almost none of the people festured on that series were able to keep the weight off. In the case of the man who was part of the Nova program, they established that while he was losing weight, his body-mind was in starvation mode and adjusted his basal metabolism downward. That low metabolic rate did not change. Long after he lost the weight and resumed eating 'normally', whatever that was, his base metabolism was far below that of a regular person.

I submit that until we know how to manage those 'set points' around metabolic rate and base weight, we won't have a handle on long term weight loss and maintenance.

Right now there are some contradictory appearances: That sustained weight loss and weight control are extremely difficult even when the subject has will power. Yet it is obvious that weight gain and obesity have magnified across the world in the past fifty years. So clearly somethings have changed. Right now there are many self anointed experts who claim that their big idea explains the situation. But do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:21 PM

One of the other sites I dip into everyday,
for a few minutes recreational random reading is Quota.

Today, one question and answer about a lesser known movie star's dramatic obesity loss and muscle gain started off interesting but gradually became suspiciously more like an infomercial for keto..

Yep, the expert answering the question,
(presumably to a question set up by a shill..???)
is a 'qualified' keto propagandist salesman...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM

"That's a very proper gander."
-J. Thurber

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM

This thread started out focused on psychiatric results, not weight loss. Keto seems to work for one psychiatric problem - seizures - and not definitely for anything else.

But other kinds of diet DO work, for specific (and not very common) conditions - and they are both easy to confuse with keto and quite a bit easier to manage, with fewer risks. A keto diet will probably eliminate gluten and greatly reduce fructose intake - both of those have well known psychiatric effects for SOME people. But it's way easier to manage a gluten-free (or gluten- and casein-free) diet than it is a keto one, and the harmful effects are zero (most of humanity has stuck to a gf/cf diet for most of human history and we're still here). Allowing a much wider range of foods makes it way easier to avoid nutrient deficiencies and lead a normal life.

There are a lot of other dietary results you will incidentally get from a keto diet that don't actually need such a drastic regimen. So it's worth trying to figure out what the real problem is. Ketosis might not be involved at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:44 AM

Seizures are neuro- but not psychological, but yeah, keto was developed for epilepsy. My shrink says there may(!) be beginning(!) to be evidence for bipolar, and it does help *me*...

But just gluten-free diet does not. That is, I get the same lability from rice, potatoes, anything starchy.

However I don't know if keto is going to be a good *lifestyle* choice, ie, permanent way of eating. I have a feeling ketosis is not where one wants to be forever.

On the other hand, I gave up cheese for weight control long ago, maybe I could welcome it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 09:17 AM

When I was most self-disciplined following a gym weight training diet,
the only cheese I was allowed was cottage cheese.
Which I had to eat on a daily basis for protein.

Possibly one of the next most boring foods to tofu...

I grew up not too far from Cheddar in Somerset.
From infancy cheddar has been been a staple diet necessity and a flavour my wellbeing depends on.

Cheddar dealers hook us young,
and no amount of rehab can break this lifelong addiction...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:03 AM

That's right. Wookey Hole caves have a lot to answer for. I always have a large stash of that cheese just in case we get snowed in.

Oops... not supposed to be here...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:17 AM

Not that Wookey Hole is in Cheddar. Do they store cheese in Cheddar's Cox's or Gough's caves?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:52 AM

Did I just see Steve? (insert winky-face here)

Oh look - a Wookey Hole Website (As a cheeseaholic, I'm tempted.)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:55 AM

He was probably posting to the Recipe thread, which seems to have got in here by mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 08:24 PM

This just in...

Keto crotch

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 09:29 PM

Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:00 AM

It is not looking as if keto *can* be a lifestyle choice. Bugger. It really is only a temporary, weightloss, thing. There does not appear to be a way to maintain weight, pH, bone density etc while not consuming carbs.

Bugger all. I am going to have to use medication, I fear, eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:39 AM

It's good for a change, a yank swearing like a Brit..

To be commended and encouraged...

All too often it's Brits being over Americanized in their vulgar vocabulary and finger gestures..

"Bugger" is a beautifully expressive traditional multi-purpose utility swear word...

Now if only we can get the yanks to start adopting our gloriously traditional British v sign...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 09:52 AM

I know one person on it for psychiatric/neurological reasons who's likely to stay on it very long term.   Regressive autism with regular grand mal fits starting at age 7. His mother is a doctor and tried everything. The keto diet helped a lot with the fits but not much with the autism. She tried something else - I forget what - which did make a difference (I haven't seen him since before). Meanwhile the kid is on a very complicated dietary regimen he doesn't have a prayer of ever understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 05:04 PM

Hmmm. Good to hear it might be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 06:09 PM

"Our gloriously traditional British v sign" - you mean the backwards "peace" sign? I know how to say it in Hangul (Korean), too.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 11:18 PM

keto is not for temporary weight loss. if you don't lose weight and you feel lousy, find another eating plan. if you lose weight and your numbers at the doctor are great and you feel wonderful and you have more stamina and energy..then you probably need to eat a version of this..adapting to your own metabolism..forever. we all have a limit of how many carbs we can eat and maintain a good weight. mine is very very low and i am not active enough. if you ski every day you can eat more. if your ancestors are from one group of people and were very healthy you could probably eat what they ate..lots of fish perhaps..or lots of fruit perhaps. problem is by now most of us are quite mixed genetically so we generally don't know. i would start with getting my insulin..along with blood sugar..but insist on insulin..checked. some people need fish oils because they don't produce the right fatty acids..ancestors probably ate a lot of fish so they did not need to produce acids themselves. if you need certain fatty acids and don't produce them or eat them...you can very well have brain imbalances.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 07:43 AM

Yeah, my numbers are good and I feel great but I want to maintain my weight and I am not. Despite eating a lot. I am now down about 2 stone in about 14 months, or about 2 pounds a month for that long. Not all steady-like, but on average from the total.

I did not mean Temporary Weightloss as in You put it all back on after. I meant temporary diet FOR weight loss and after, you go back to eating in a way that you stop losing weight.

If I could figure out how to eat this way and not lose weight, I think I could stave off medication for longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 09:27 AM

Rotation diet? Make every fourth day a carb day? Works for many kinds of food intolerance

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 10:12 AM

It's 200-ish calories a day. Find something you'd like to snack on.
My problem with weight loss (and probably a lot of people's) is that once I lose the weight, I start eating normally. "Normally" meaning I eat what I used to eat to gain the weight.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:21 PM

I think that may be where I head, Jack Campin, but then that makes every day-after-that-4th day a crazy day... Hmmm. Thanks, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 05:54 AM

The four day period is a starting point - long enough to avoid restimulating immune responses, but establishing ketosis might take longer. You'd need to experiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM

Ok so this week I celebrated my new decade with small groups, which meant going out to lunch and dinner almost every day, plus why not smoked dope all day instead of just at night. Did not lose weight. Aha!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 06:17 PM

Mrrzy, I was thinking about your cheese and crackers problem - in the new recipe thread.

I used to buy some really nice crackers from the Aldi supermarket. They were made from chia seeds and a few other seeds. Not much white carbs but a big variety of other good stuff. I kept a packet in my drawer at work to snack on. There is info and a pic of the packet here:

2 Grain & 4 Seed Crackers

The only negative I had with them is that they are very hard to bite so I used to break them into smaller pieces.

They were yummy. I'll have to get some more.

I'm not sure what the carb component would be so they might not fit your required nutrition list, but I was also thinking that you could make some yourself using processed almonds instead of wheat flour. Almonds processed to a crumb stage in the food processor is my go-to substitute for wheat flour and I use it in some of my favourite recipes. I can eat wheat flour, gluten etc but if I am cooking for friends who can't it's a gift from heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 21 - 07:19 PM

Heheh...

Oops....

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 12:42 AM

Is it pronounced im-poo-nitty or imp-you-nitty? I guess you can get away with it either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:47 AM

Did you have a nice break, Helen?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 05:43 AM

"imp-you-nitty" (unless you are from Norfolk or that region, when it's "im-poo-nitty", I think - maybe Eliza can confirm ...).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 11:21 AM

Somewhere, I had crackers that were 100% cheese. I think the cheese - parmesan, believe - was just shredded and fried or baked. They were great.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 12:24 PM

Eat, Fast, and Live Longer looks at a variety of medically supervised diets. The goal is to decrease risk for various things. In the past I've used the alternate day fasting successfully, though over time the weight I lost came back - but the bum knee was fixed right at the beginning of COVID so my mobility is restored, which is a huge help). I was doing it primarily to reduce cholesterol with the side benefit of losing a few pounds. Probably a "stone" for the UK crowd.

Successful alternate-day fasting tends to be seasonal - I wouldn't do it year round. Fasting in cold weather is difficult when your body naturally is trying to hold onto calories to keep you warm. A veterinarian friend made that observation that seems to be true, though wasn't discussed in the hour-long documentary. Lose weight in warmer weather and just try to maintain the level during cold weather.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 01:58 PM

Maggie, my Hubby & I started doing the 5:2 fasting diet a few years ago and it worked for us. Five days a week of normal eating and two days of low calorie eating. We heard about it on a documentary by Dr Michael Mosley who looks at the science of all sorts of health issues in his TV shows.

The Beginner's Guide to the 5:2 Diet

We both lost weight and kept it off fairly well over the years. It becomes automatic to just cut back on calories as and when needed, after we adjusted to the routine, i.e. we only eat when we are hungry, not because the clock says it's meal time.

As for cold weather, we live in balmy east coast Oz, so what we call cold weather here wouldn't even rate a mention in your area, I expect. But in winter we tended to make soups or stews with lots of veges and legumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 03:18 PM

I posted a link to the first Mosley video. He went on to write a book that modified it to the 5:2 pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 03:51 PM

Yep. Sorry. I didn't explain that properly. I first heard about the fasting diets when I watched the Eat, Fast, and Live Longer documentary and found the 5:2 diet book just after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:35 PM

Eat, Fast, and Live Longer

Many diets claim to help you live longer. Most, if any at all, don't but, my God, they certainly make life dreary enough to seem like it!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 06:14 PM

Which is why fasting a couple of days a week is a good idea because it's not a long dreary slog with no end in sight. One day on low calories, eat what you want on the non-fast days, then one more non-consecutive fast day in the week. The studies I've seen appear to show that most people don't lash out on the unhealthy stuff on non-fast days, possibly because they can see that they are making progress with the fast days.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 07:35 PM

His objective wasn't necessarily to make the book of records on long life, but to live a healthy normal-span life while reducing the problems of things like cholesterol or blood pressure, that there are some things that respond very favorably to intermittent fasting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 08:47 PM

Is there anything written regarding the issue of setting an inner weight or metabolic rate via the intermittent fast diet?

impunity pronounced im-pyu'-nitty at my place.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 12:29 AM

Hi robomatic, I'd probably have to re-read my 5:2 fast diet book to see if it mentions the influence - or not - on metabolic rate but I just did a quick search and found this short article.

Fast 5:2 Diet Evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 05:46 AM

The studies I've seen appear to show that most people don't lash out on the unhealthy stuff on non-fast days

Not true for everyone! I have tried every diet going, including 5:2. I start off being very good and lose weight as expected. Then slowly, slowly, my "eat what you want on the non-fast days" increases until I am undoing all the good work of the fast day. My mind then becomes fixated on how to stop this - even to the point of changing 5:2 to 4:3 (which I have done at sometime). Fixation is a big problem. What happens if your fast day coincides with a special occasion where you know you will be eating. Do you skip it? Bring it forward? Shift the whole cycle back one day? Add an extra fast day to compensate? It's not long before your diet is occupying all your thoughts.

..... it's not a long dreary slog with no end in sight.

The amount of weight I need to lose means that it is, inevitably, a long dreary slog with moments of despair when I plateau out for a week or more, before restarting the weight loss. There is no end in sight. I have lost 3 stone many times, only to put 3 stone 2 pounds back on again. My weight has followed a saw-tooth upward trend. I am now on the way down again but, this time, even losing 3 stone will leave me overweight. I know I can win the battle but, inevitably, I will lose the war.

I eat very little processed food, rarely have take-aways, drink only moderately and my taste for sweet things has decreased over the years. I eat a well balanced diet - I just eat too much. In my effort to get my five-a-day, I can demolish the fruit bowl. Eating too much meat means that I have to eat too much dessert to maintain the balance. My biggest problem is comfort eating through boredom

Steve has it right, upthread. Exercise, portion control and avoiding snacking are better than fad diets.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM

Portion control is by far the worst cocept for weight loss. Guaranteed to leave you wanting more. Far, far better to eat as much as you want, but select what you eat as much as you want to *of* [sorry, English, for mangling you].

Out of ketosis from a week of bday feasting including a bite of dessert most days, a coupla slices of bread or a mouthful of rice, here and there. Not gone nuts, though! So maybe my equanimity has gotten stronger. Might test it by having actual pasta. Might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 10:02 AM

eat as much as you want to *of*

But very often I don't actually want it. I eat it because it's there. I don't need anything with a cup of tea or coffee but if the biscuit barrel is on the table then ...

Or, I'll raid the fridge each time I pass through the kitchen. I don't need to be hungry to take a nibble of cheese; a couple of prawns; a spoonful of coleslaw; - not much on their own but they all add up. The best cure for that is keeping busy so that I don't have time to graze.

Another thing is being a human dustbin. If something is getting near its use-by date, I will eat it up rather than throw it away. If I have made a meal with two reasonable portions but my wife only takes a small portion, then I will finish off what is left in the bowl.

The problem with fad diets is that when they come to an end, I go back to eating as before and pile the pounds back on. Educating my stomach to expect less seems a better way of making a change in lifestyle.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 11:12 AM

There is no single diet that suits everyone. I tried alsorts, including Atkins and fasting, with little or no sucess. The only thing that does it for me is watching what I put in and doing more. WW has worked well for me. I accept it is a lifestyle thing and not a temporary fix. The interesting thing I find with WW is that I count points rather than calories. Their phrase 'not all calories are equal' rings very true with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 11:59 AM

I'm 3 1/2 weeks into my my frozen ready meals, meat and cheese pasties,
steak pies, ready salted crisps, and Quavers diet..

What a modern marvel of technology is the microwave oven...


.. yeah ok, I do have an apple, a banana and a multivitamin tablet everyday...

And a once or twice weekly late night snack treat
is eating corned beef straight out the tin with a spoon..

Proper job British survival grub...!!!

I depend on a weekly food parcel drop off to keep me going...

Can't say if it's the best or worst diet I've ever lived on,
But it's keeping me alive while I'm still stuck away from home doing an elderly relative pathological hoarder's house clearance.

I probably should have had a tetanus booster before starting this verging on squalor job.
But at least had enough sense to take my own sleeping bag...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 12:41 PM

For years now I've paid attention to the amount of foods and logged them on My Fitness Pal with the various free parameters set so I can track (in particular) calcium. I also have it set on Carbs, Sugar, Cholesterol, and Fiber since I have five categories I can let it calculate. This is because in 2017 I was diagnosed with Polymyalgia Rheumatica. PMR. My rheumatologist tracked that and with steroids over the next 18 months it went away, but when you're taking steroids you have to be very careful with calcium because your bones can't add more, you need to get everything you need via diet so you don't end up robbing your bones and osteoporosis, etc., can develop.

I have an electronic scale in the kitchen and especially with foods that have calcium content I weighed so I could enter it and keep track. If I didn't get enough through food then I supplemented by taking calcium tablets, broken to the point to give me the 100% requirement. Taking too much calcium causes other problems. I haven't weighed food for diet reasons much for a while, but when I'm doing the alternate day fasting I will. Most of the time I can eyeball it; 1 cup of baked squash or steamed broccoli, instead of weighing, for example.

I see this doctor once a year for follow-up (PMR often stays away, but not always; it's idiopathic so we don't know the trigger, though it's my guess that stress was a major factor.) Now she watches for osteoporosis, as does my ob/gyn. Getting the calcium right is a life-long pursuit now.

There are some foods I don't bother to log on My Fitness Pal because I know they don't have calcium content to consider, but if I'm watching calories then they do get entered. It also has a category for amount of water drunk each day, and that's a good reminder in cooler weather to stay hydrated. I haven't bothered to join the paid version of the program because the free one does what I need. It's very helpful during the alternate day fasting, but don't use the "Complete this Entry" button when you're fasting or you'll get a scold that you haven't eaten enough food to keep body and soul alive. I rarely bother to complete any of the entry days, just keep that running log.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:27 PM

Doug, I'm a little confused about your term "fad diet" because a diet developed and studied scientifically and approved by medical doctors is not a fad diet as I understand it.

Fad diets tend to be promoted by celebrities in the media or on social media and tend to have been invented by someone with little or no expertise in nutritional science who is motivated to become famous and rich. The TV show called The Diet Testers which appears to be aka How to Lose Weight Well, tried out a range of diets on some willing participants and any of the diets which rely on an extremely limited range of foods e.g. cabbage soup, or the potato diet and not healthy balanced eating, counts as a fad diet in my definition.

If a diet has been scientifically proven to work for a significant number of people after rigorous, evidence-based studies, then it's not a fad diet in my definition. It might be popular because it works so people are talking about it but, in my opinion, it doesn't make it a fad diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:42 PM

I just did a quick search and found this article:

25 Trendy Fad Diets That Are Total BS

Each diet is given a quick review on why it is not a good idea for long term health benefits.

The review of the keto diet for *weight loss* - so this is not about the use of the diet to alleviate seizures - is:


"23 Only Try the Ketogenic Diet If You're A Serious Athlete

"Your body runs on that bagel you ate this morning. But if you starve it of carbs, your body goes into a state of ketosis where it burns fat for fuel. In fact, it's a strategy some serious athletes are using to boost their performance, but for weight loss, it's not worth it. "It may help you lose weight more dramatically and it may be safe for a short period. However, since your kidneys filter out protein, a ketogenic diet can weaken them over time," says Mark Mincolla, Ph.D., author of The Whole Health Diet. Weight loss for your health? The trade off doesn't seem worth it."

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:49 PM

Thanks! I had read about it leaching calcium, but not about kidneys. I am definitely thinking long-term keto can't be healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:15 PM

On the other hand, the same website has this to say about using keto "for keeping your mental health in check" on their list of top diet plans.

3 Ketogenic Diet

The high-fat, low-carb ketogenic diet isn't just touted as a way to help you lose weight; research has also shown that it may be an effective tool for keeping your mental health in check. Laboratory rats fed ketogenic diets — which consist of lots of fish, natural fats, plenty of vegetables, and very few starchy, high-carbohydrate foods — showed improvements in their depression, anxiety, and ADHD.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:40 PM

I concur that "My Fitness Pal" is pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:59 PM

Doug, I'm a little confused about your term "fad diet"

Yes Helen, it was lazy of me to lump intermittent fasting in with fad diets when what I was referring to was diets, of any sort, used as short term fixes.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 03:03 PM

Yay keto mental health! Boo keto physical health!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 03:22 PM

Mrrzy, I guess that means finding a healthy balance.

I wonder what exactly it is about the keto diet which positively affects mental health. That would be interesting to find out because then you could work out a healthy solution, using the part of the diet which works but opening your options for a wider variety of healthy food. I'm also wondering whether, on reaching and maintaining ketosis for a specified period of time, is there a next stage of maintaining your mental health on a modified version of the keto diet? So many questions.

Thanks for the clarification, Doug. I don't see the Fast diet as a short term fix, because for me personally it helped me to find a more balanced long term way of eating a healthy diet and I monitor my weight so that if it looks like my healthy balance is going out of whack, I do a modified version of the Fast diet. But, I tend to go for lots of veges and legumes as well as meat and dairy so my everyday nutrition is generally balanced, even allowing for some hot chips or dark chocolate or other treats every now and then.

One tip I have seen on the diet programmes is to keep a food diary for about a week, being totally honest about exactly what I eat and how much. It can be revealing when I look at it all written down, instead of thinking I can have a bit of this and a bit of that and "it shouldn't make much difference". As for leftovers, I cook large-ish amounts and I freeze portions so that we can have a quick healthy meal if I don't feel like cooking sometimes. Also, I tend to eat on a smaller plate because it makes the portion appear to be larger. It's a psychological trick but it seems to work. And another trick I used when I came home from work, instead of raiding the frig or pantry for something sweet or fatty, I'd have a bit of protein, e.g. a bit of low fat cheese or a piece of leftover roast beef to tide me over until I had cooked dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 04:49 PM

As alluded to in my post up above, I find that the details around weight loss and dieting can easily become a bit of an obsession, so no food diary for me.

I have, in the past, frozen leftovers then thrown them out 18 months later when found at the back corner of the freezer basket.

The smaller plates tip is something that I have already decided to take up and am looking out for plates of the appropriate size that fit in with our current crockery.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 05:27 PM

Doug, I only did the food diary for a week. It helps to look objectively at how much food and what type of food I eat normally. It's just a data-gathering exercise to look at my current normal situation before taking proactive steps to improve my eating habits.

One of the Van Tulleken doctors - it might have been Dr Xand - in a TV documentary carried a bucket around with him for one day. For every item of food he ate, he put another one in the bucket and then a scientist analysed it for calories, fats, sugars, etc or something like that. I'd rather a nice discreet little diary or an app on the phone. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 06:27 PM

Since PMR is idiopathic, mentioned before, I looked at other factors beyond stress. Food that are considered inflammatory might be part of it, and wheat flour is one of those, so during most of the time I shopped for gluten free as a way to eliminated wheat from my diet. Since getting off of the steroids I've added wheat back, but I don't eat as much as I used to. If you read about how non-organic wheat is harvested, you would also. Farmers now often hit it with Glyphosate (Roundup) to desiccate it before harvest; Glyphosate doesn't bread down and it harms your gut bacteria just like it harms weeds. An article about it.

Shopping for me involves reading lots of labels to avoid various things I'm allergic to or often, simply things I'd rather not eat. I do most cooking from scratch.

As to plate size, I recently found more lunch plates to round out my set of stoneware I like for meals (the first five plates were picked up at a thrift store, a lovely pattern I thought I'd seen around more than turned out to be the case. It was quite some time before I could find more.) They're smaller than dinner plates but it doesn't look like you're being shortchanged, they're not small like salad plates or saucers. I've used lunch plates for years for the very reason of portion size. I have a few dinner plates in the pantry that are handy sometimes during meal preparation for some large piece of food that needs to thaw, for a volume of food that needs a plate instead of a bowl, etc. Sometimes for serving. Never for eating off of.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 02:18 AM

My wife got most of her patients to keep food and symptom diaries. Usually for about a month, sometimes a lot longer. Her filing cabinets had a couple of thousand of them.

The most useful ones were done on lined writing paper. Software solutions were useless because they introduced too much delay and omission. Do it on paper and always carry paper and something to write with.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 04:17 AM

Jack, I think that keeping the food diary was a wake-up call. If I was completely honest and didn't fudge the entries or "forget" to write something down, or underestimate the portions then I could see exactly what food I was consuming and when. I couldn't hide my head in the sand.

It was a good motivator for change.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 07:04 AM

Two questions from reading recent posts:

Why are 'salad plates' smaller than dinner plates, or even 'lunch plates'?
I always eat salad off [not off of] a large plate.

Why are the most useful food diaries the ones done on lined writing paper?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 09:50 AM

I disciplined myself to small bowl meals when I was taking gym training seriously,
and persevered with feeling hungry and mierable at every bedtime.

Now small bowls only provide any benefit
from the exercise walking to the kitchen and back for extra helpings refills...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 09:51 AM

Miserable...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 03:07 PM

V. funny, pfr!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 21 - 10:00 PM

I like this person's look at food and cooking:

Adam Ragusea: Why raw, paleo and keto diets are stupid

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:19 AM

Thanks for that. Nicely put.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:44 AM

Thanks robomatic. That was interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Spearcarrier
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:55 AM

Keto worked great for me when i was doing it. It's VERY HARD for me to lose weight. The problem is following the keto diet proved to be too large of an obstacle. Sometimes there's no time, or worse, no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 10:56 AM

The video does say that the *reasoning* behind raw and paleo is poor, but that keto is just really hard to do, and that most people who claimed to be doing it, weren't, really. I thought that interesting.
I agree with the reasoning on paleo and raw. I agree that keto is hard to accomplish, and that I am not following it as designed (I am not hi-fat, just low-carb). However I did not find that the video said that it was poorly reasoned, or otherwise stupid. Which, as I said, I found interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 07:07 PM

To reiterate myself, I've only lost major weight by something very like keto. And my long term worry is that I might be lowering my resting metabolism or weight 'set point' (and maybe already have). So how do I maintain control over that vital linkage to weight?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 07:39 PM

I said I was leaving this thread and not coming back. I lied. I simply had to encourage all here to google this from today's Guardian:

"Thanks for all the dietary advice. Don't expect me to pay attention to any of it." (Jay Rayner)

Thank God for the truly sane!

Back to my hole...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 08:08 PM

robomatic, I think - but don't know the full evidence - that crash dieting e.g. The Biggest Loser TV show type of dieting, losing weight, then going back to bad eating habits and gaining weight can lead to yo-yo dieting and this can affect the metabolism. This is just a quick reflection on some of the things I have read or seen on reputable, scientific documentaries.

One thing I remember hearing about was that after the fat cells in a person's body are reduced in size they still have the capacity to get larger again - or maybe they multiply - but the problem lies in having a large fat storage capacity and then reducing that capacity and then increasing it again, especially time and again.

I'm just about to go out so I can't research it and give you more specific information but it might be worthwhile looking into that.

Ultimately, in my opinion, it comes back to changing eating habits *for life* to a healthy, balanced diet with lots of good nutritious food and a healthy lifestyle and not falling into the trap of losing weight and then *rewarding* myself with junk food and then spiralling back into old bad habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 02:53 AM

One of the most startling pieces of raw historical data I've ever seen was the diary of the head gardener at Dalkeith Palace for the decades around 1800. As well as describing how he ran the garden, he met all the celebrity visitors and got to record their height and weight. They were astonishingly small and light by modern standards. By far the heaviest, out in a class of his own, was "Monsieur", later the Bourbon King Louis XVIII. At 13 stone. So whatever the diet and exercise regime of the Georgian aristocracy was, it was bloody effective at weight control.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 04:32 AM

Well it didn't include burgers & chips from Maccas or fried chicken from KFC, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 12:21 PM

They also didn't spend most of their spare time sat on their arses, eyes glued to screens...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 03:30 AM

Everyone here gets enough exercise jumping to conclusions, flying off the handle, carrying things too far, dodging responsibilities and pushing their luck :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 04:49 PM

I need to reread The Phantom Tollbooth. That is where I learned about jumping to conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 09:53 AM

Aand my cholesterol, long diet-controlled, has gone outa whack.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 06:57 PM

Conferring with nutritionist Friday. Shall I report back?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, mate!! I want to know what's happening with you.

I did a bit of a quick Google on using keto to alleviate seizures and one page I saw recommended a couple of other diets which are a bit easier to follow.

Dietary Therapies for Epilepsy

"Other diets

Regardless of the effectiveness of the ketogenic diet, many people discontinue it because of its unpalatable and restrictive features. There is no question that the ketogenic diet can be difficult to follow, or you may want to transition to a less structured diet.

Dietary options for epilepsy have expanded in recent years to include:

    "The Modified Atkins Diet (MAD): which is a less restrictive variation of the ketogenic diet and can be started at home without a fast. There is unlimited protein and fat intake, and does not restrict calories or fluids.
    "The Low-Glycemic Index (Low GI) treatment diet: which does not necessarily cause ketosis, and may instead reduce seizures by lowering glucose levels in the blood and possibly in brain cells.

"While still restrictive compared to a “normal” diet, these diets are easier to incorporate into normal life and easier to follow when eating out. The scientific evidence for their effectiveness is still in early stages and varies greatly between studies."

There are a lot more pages you can look at, but one also said that high cholesterol is a possible side effect of the keto diet.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 07:42 AM

Oops *next* Friday.

Yeah, I can do the no carbs but not the high fat.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 08:15 AM

Low GI is a good alternative to no carbs. You get carbs but the lower the GI, the slower they release into your body and the better you can handle them.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:15 AM

GI? Glycemic index?

Nutritionist says watch for B vitamin deficiency, but nothing says long-term keto is bad, but since most people can't stick to it, data are sparse.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 02:55 AM

Yes, Glycemic Index. Highest is Glucose. Lowest GI foods are stoned fruits and beans.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 03:01 AM

There are odd anomalies though. Like chips (fries) are lower than baked potatoes because the fat that chips are fried in lowers the absorption rate.

Just struck me too. It may not be purely carbs that affect your mental health. Could it be the blood sugar spikes produced by high GI carbs? If so, GI may be worth investigating.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 09:56 AM

Totz. I did find that pasta, rice, couscous, taters, and bread all had the same effect, but I am gonna look into adding low gi carbs. I like lentils and hummous, for instance. And berries.

Good thought, my Gnome friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:25 PM

The comment (DavetG will recognise this phenomenon instantly) used to be that a thread had been "Keithed" (He of Blessed Memory; blessed because he is now a Mudcat memory...). Now you could use a different name, but the mods have been getting more strict (hurrah!) about 'personal attacks', so I will only say that I dropped out of this after Someone Else decided to get involved (it should be fairly obvious who).

I submit that until we know how to manage...

Essentially, robo, that's what I said way back up at 16/2 somewhere. Folk like to declare stuff, especially if the folk in question wants to sell you something. But nutrition/diet is about as complex as you can get & the studies we have are not sufficiently long-term or all-encompassing to prove anything. All of it, at the moment, is "best guess" territory. There are very good reasons for doubting that the supposedly perfect "balanced" diet is in any way suitable for Homo Sap.

GI Index - There seems to be a little confusion above about this. The GI Index is not a simple measure of how much carb X contains. It's supposed to be a measure of how quickly human digestion absorbs whatever carbs are in the stomach. I think it was Helen who mentioned "Trust Me, I'm A Doctor" saying that "cooled carbs" was an entirely new discovery... No it's not. Michel Montignac pre-dates "Trust Me" by some years. As far as I remember... Imagine a tsp of pure glucose. That's 100 on the GI index. When it hits your digestive system, it (more or less) goes straight into your bloodstream. A tsp of water is 0 GI; it's got no carbs at all. Pretty much anything else is somewhere in between.

Yes, "cooled starches" reduce their carbiness (retrogradation is the technical term, I believe). On Montignac's scale, IIRC, 'cold' carbs drop about 5 pts compared with 'just cooked' ones. The amount of carb doesn't change; just the rate at which you absorb them. And that is a key point of the GI Index. 1 Tsp of monosaccharide sugar (glucose) has a higher GI than 1 tsp of polysaccharide sugar - the body has to expend energy breaking it down (that's a whole other issue!). The point of the low GI diet is that you reduce / eliminate the 'straight into the bloodstream' carbs. Eat a flapjack (oats are low-GI) rather than a packet of sweets (pure sugar!) sort of thing.

I could say a lot more. I've been keenly interested in diet (in a strictly amateur but definitely in a neutral & analytic way) for many years. But if you don't care enough to ask about or challenge what I've just said, typing more now would be a waste of everyone's time! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 03:25 PM

Thanks Raedwulf for your explanation:

"The GI Index is not a simple measure of how much carb X contains. It's supposed to be a measure of how quickly human digestion absorbs whatever carbs are in the stomach."

That makes a lot of sense to me. I read about GI when it first became a talked-about topic, but that was quite a while ago so I forgot the details of how it works.

You also said:

"I think it was Helen who mentioned 'Trust Me, I'm A Doctor' saying that 'cooled carbs' was an entirely new discovery".

To clarify, I didn't say it was a new discovery. I just happened to see it on the Trust Me.. show, so a new discovery for me! LOL. It surprised me that cooking and cooling the carbs could make a difference.

Mrrzy, lentils and hummus are great! I probably said this before, but maybe not in this thread. I use red lentils to thicken stews or soup instead of flour. I also think - trying frantically to look back through my cluttered and ageing brain-database - that there are pastas made from lentils or legumes, but also flour made from chickpeas etc. Hubby has used a grinder to grind red lentils to make a flour for a dish he made and it worked well.

I'm a bit partial to red lentils because they break down easily into a dish, but other lentils keep their shape and texture and more easily become the star of the show, for example in Indian curries etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 08:22 PM

a greek restaurant in seattle gave me directions for large pot of lentil soup for a camp. Basically lentils, water, salt, I think bay leaf..maybe rosemary...main additions were vinegar and olive oil at the end. it is delicious. From Costa's restaurant.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 06:11 AM

There are good GI tables out there. If I remember right, channa dhal is much lower than lentils and the lowest-GI legume of all is one traditionally eaten by the Australian Aboriginals.

But if ketosis is the therapeutic mechanism for treatment of seizures and bipolarity, this is not all that important. The keto side effects will be unavoidable. Much like the effects of carbamazepine, another treatment used for both conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM

Yeah, that's what worries me. I have no noticeable symptoms. I fear the effects I don't notice.

One thing occurs to me: what were our ancestors' sources of carbs before the domestication of grain? I know we evolved to crave them because they were rare. Could ketosis actually have been normal in those high and far-off days?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 08:58 AM

Tried lowGI carbs, just some, for a few days... Then realized I was spending money like it was water and losing my temper with my friends for being exactly the way they always were. So have stopped. And returned the 50" TV that was medium in the store but waaay to big for my actual living room.

A little hypomania goes a loong way...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 09:08 AM

I think we just have to accept that you are unhinged Mrrzy :-D

(In the nicest possible way of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 06:26 PM

Oh, totz!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 08:43 AM

Finally found an actual research article. Have contacted the authors.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:01 PM

And one answered!

The data are looking better for keto and bipolar (http://ketobipolar.com/)

The data are looking better for long-term keo and health
(https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100216163531.htm)

And they might do a case study on me.

Will watch for kidney stones and bone density issues (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6985427/).

Woot!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 07:22 PM

Congratulations.

Anything that gets you more tests and measurements has to be for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 21 - 11:23 PM

Mary, my favorite lentil soup recipe is from Egypt. 6 cups water (it tastes better than using stock), a medium chopped onion, 1 1/2 cup lentils, cooked for 45 minutes, then add 1/2 teaspoon cumin, a little salt, grind of black pepper to taste, and a tablespoon of lemon juice. It really is delicious and is good for you (I try to get lots of oats and beans for the cholesterol lowering properties).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 21 - 07:44 AM

I lost all want of toast with breakfast. Rice, and potatos and pasta still are a problem but small purple potatos and proportionality takes care of craving starch.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 21 - 04:11 PM

I appear to have stopped losing weight, 5 lbs short of bmi<25. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 03 May 21 - 05:17 PM

Hi Mrrzy,

Weight loss can plateau. Sometimes you can kickstart it again, but sometimes it's almost like the body's sense of its own "ideal weight". A BMI of 25 is not bad.

I read somewhere that the BMI calculation was invented by an insurance company statistician who was looking for a way to decide who was a good insurance risk, from a financial viewpoint. He did a comparison on obesity rates and age at death. It wasn't invented by medical experts, so it isn't the only measure of your health that you can use.

In other words, don't place too much pressure on yourself based on BMI. Look at the bigger picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:49 AM

Oh yeah, no, it was just a marker. But it woulda been nice.

The better thing is that I can buy clothes, if I have really stopped...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 May 21 - 02:39 PM

This is a fairly sane description of some of the issues around the BMI measure.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255712

It gets a lot of hysterical rant from pro-fatness zealots, using much the same sort of spin doctoring as the anti-vaxx gang. Historically it was developed as a simple and easy to calculate formula that correlated with empirical risk. It works reasonably well, and there is a very large volume of data using it - an improved measure like the one suggested in that article might well work better for some purposes, but you'd still want to use that old data. And the pro-fatness zealots don't want there to be ANY measure that might describe the damage to individual and public health caused by obesity.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:01 PM

Thanks Jack. Interesting article.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:17 PM

I appear to have stopped losing weight, 5 lbs short of bmi<25. Hmmm.

Mrrzy,
I thought that you were looking to the keto diet because you had noticed that complex carbs disrupted your mental health, rather than for weight loss.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:36 PM

Ah, well, a medical need popped up (finally - and it's good to know what's going on.) I'll give myself a couple of weeks then I'll be doing the alternate day fasting, but making a point of kicking out more of the processed flour I've added back into my diet over a couple of years since the PMR cleared up. It turns out the thyroid was running low and it'll be another week at least before I begin to feel the effects of the daily tablet on an empty stomach. Then perhaps the extra weight gained over the winter will subside. I'm not doing keto but the doctor wants fewer carbs and fats and more protein.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:08 PM

I was diagnosed with hypoactive (i.e. underactive) thyroid about 20 years ago. I'm on the tablet for life.

For the few months before being diagnosed I was an overweight, fatigued, brain-fuddled mess but after the medication kicked in I started getting back to normality.

I found out that a person who had recently "recovered" from glandular fever and was back at work very kindly (not!) gave me a case of Hashimoto's disease.

Sorry, not keto-related. Back to the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 21 - 10:20 PM

That pretty well describes my symptoms. The doctor wants about half of calories in protein - that is a LOT of protein. A co-worker was on the Atkins diet one time, I looked into it - there isn't a faster way to constipate yourself than go on that diet. I'll have to do some research (and possibly read through the rest of this thread).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 04 May 21 - 11:31 PM

Maggie, I didn't have to go on a special diet. When the pills kicked in the weight started going away. It was mostly fluid retention, I think, so a diet would have made little difference.

What I mostly remember about that time was that my brain was like mushy porridge. I couldn't think straight, and every sound seemed really loud and annoying. I was sitting in a library with some of my students and all I could hear was the loud whooshing of the air conditioners, which I had never noticed before - or since.

My main suggestion for the Atkins diet is to read the original Atkins information and not the myriad of people who think they know what it's about, don't have the original information but are happy to sound off about it. It's mostly lots of veges or salad and protein.

But also avoid white carbs - pasta, rice, potatoes, white bread etc - and substitute vege based carbs like carrots, sweet potato, etc and use legumes for some of your protein. One of my fave recipes is to mash up white beans or canellini beans or chickpeas (instead of mashed potato) and add fried onion and other veges, feta cheese, whatever flavours take your fancy, shape them into patties, coat them in panko breadcrumbs and shallow fry them. Yum! The beans hold the patties in shape, but also add protein to the meal.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 05 May 21 - 12:30 AM

Also, the Atkins diet has a kickstart stage which looks daunting, but it is followed fairly soon after by a healthier balance of foods, so it's important to read about the stages before you start. Otherwise you might scare yourself by just looking at stage 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:06 AM

Indeed, DC. One of my worries was that I kept losing weight and did not want to, but that seems to not be a worry any more, yay for my mental health.

I had a half-cup of decaf the other day and did not go crazy. It was sooooooo goooooood...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:20 AM

I mentioned Atkins as one that seems unhealthy, but obviously there are interpretations to consider.

If I were to name a target "diet" it would be the Mediterranean diet (which isn't actually a think like a book is it?). The types of foods from that region. My favorite cookbooks is a Middle East compendium that covers a lot of the dishes I consider from that region. Hummus, falafel, babaghanouj, etc. Since my garden in this region of Texas is especially good at growing Mediterranean-type crops, I'm set.

All of this is coming at me at once; the physical exam and blood work that revealed the hypothyroid was the one to approve cataract surgery. I'm hoping by the end of May to have a clearer brain and clear vision. I'm going for one standard Medicare lens (that eye doesn't need correction otherwise) and one of the higher-end ones to correct the astigmatism. Those, along with my knee replacement a year ago and I tell people I'm entering my "Bionic Phase." ;-) I won't be able to do any lifting for a week after each eye, but I struggled mightily to put the garden in ahead of all of this so it can grow while I watch from the driveway.

One of my crops is okra, and while I can't say I enjoy it in all of it's forms, that's because I didn't grow up down here where it grows so well. But I'm eating more of it each year. I have figured out that to pickle the extras is a great way to make the neighbors happy (gifting jars of the pickles). They're a healthy snack.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 05 May 21 - 02:42 PM

Yay, Mrrzy! Milestones reached!

And Maggie, the Middle Eastern "diet" is my favourite food. I love all the ME foods you mentioned - but not okra, mainly because I ate it once about 40 years ago and I wasn't impressed.

My favourite ME cookbook is by Claudia Roden. I bought it in the '80's or early '90's and had to buy a replacement copy because I had worn the old one out. I love it.

And Yay! for your cataract operations. I had mine a few years ago and it was fantastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 05 May 21 - 03:10 PM

I tried okra once. It was horribly slimey.
I have since heard that there is a solution to the slime, I think it involved salt and vinegar - soaking, maybe.
I find that a simpler solution is just not to use okra.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 05 May 21 - 04:10 PM

Sorry, I meant I love Middle Eastern AND Mediterranean. Because you mentioned hummus, falafel, babaghanouj I zeroed in on the Middle Eastern foods and then realised I had missed out on saying my other faves like Greek, Turkish, Italian, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 05 May 21 - 05:09 PM

The links below are for the Atkins 20 plan which has the lowest carbs per day, but there is a page which compares the different Atkins plans:

Compare the Atkins plans

Personally, I would probably do the Atkins 100 and then if I thought it was working well and if I needed to tighten the restrictions I'd consider whether to go on one of the stricter plans. Ease into it gently.

Atkins 20

Atkins diet overview with a quick reference chart of foods for each phase.

The foods for each phase are explained, e.g.

List of Low Carb Foods for Atkins 20, Phase 1

There is no need to buy any of the Atkins food products. The list of foods for each phase shows a healthy range of vegetables, fruit and proteins and they are all available at supermarkets etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 21 - 08:59 AM

As I understand it, Atkins starts off keto then morphs into lower-carb-than-before-but-not-THAT-low?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 May 21 - 09:05 AM

I first encountered okra and an Indian restaurant when I was a child. We had been to Old Trafford to see Norwich play Man U and stopped off (I think in Sale) on the way back to N Wales for a meal. I loved it.

I must admit though that my couple of attempts much later in life at making a bhindi bhaji weren't that good. I did try growing it here one year but it failed. It can be grown, ideally under cover, in the UK but SRS in Texas has much better conditions for it.

I can't remember if I've asked my brother in Queensland (Sunshine Coast region) has tried growing it but I guess it might suit his sub-tropical climate.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 21 - 09:38 AM

Fried okra has none of the slime but boiled okra has all of it.

The Complete Middle East Cookbook by Tess Mallos (an Australian author of Greek heritage) is the best one around, not only for recipes but for telling you techniques. In the front she describes how to treat okra to remove the slick consistency. I pickle it (Ladybird Johnson's recipe) and that vinegar removes the slick consistency. Stir fry cut up pieces and it's okay. I don't eat it in everything, but I'm getting better.

That cookbook (above linked to Amazon) is an expensive one. Go to Bookfinder.com and look for a hardbound used version and you'll get a better copy than the perfect binding softcover sold more expensively now at Amazon. I have several extra copies because I use this book as a gift for people who love this kind of food. I can usually get it for under $15, including shipping. My mother's sister married a man who immigrated from Turkey as a young adult and learned to cook a lot of his favorite dishes. She got a look at my book one time and said this was the best set of recipes she'd seen, so everyone in the family got copies. So it is "Aunt approved."

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 06 May 21 - 12:02 PM

Maggie, I love my well-worn hardback copy of the book by Tess Mallos. I bought it when it was first published.

The sliminess of the okra turned me off, but your methods of frying or pickling look better.

Mrrzy, that describes the Atkins diet pretty well. I never bothered with measuring the ketosis, back in the mid '80's. I just found that when I modified my eating habits according to the Atkins phases I was losing weight in a healthy way, and ever since after I reached my ideal weight I have just been careful of not eating lots of white carbs, and eating a balanced diet with lots of veges, fruit, good proteins, extra legumes and healthy fats like olive oil and avocado. It's an easy long-term healthy eating plan for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 21 - 06:25 PM

I first grew okra because my next door neighbor asked me about it, she was having trouble with it in her yard. I gave her my crop and said she'd have to show me how to fix it. A delivered plate of okra cut into 1/2" diagonal pieces, rolled in a mix of seasoned cornmeal (with a little white flour for sticking purposes) and fried in a pan of shallow oil was enough to convince me that okra was a good crop to grow.

Yesterday was a great illustration of why having a garden is such a luxury. I had some ripe avocados for guacamole and I didn't have my usual stash of frozen cilantro (I lost it in the February power outage and haven't replaced some of that yet). I had a stray volunteer cilantro growing in a pot outside so walked out to trim some sprigs and add them to the mix. (I hope avocado is considered a healthy fat in the keto and other universes).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 06 May 21 - 06:47 PM

Oh yes, avocado is a healthy fat. Love it!

The okra recipe sounds good.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 21 - 09:05 PM

We eat a pretty wide range of culinary idioms, but insofar as it's Mediterranean it's usually Turkish. My wife is totally intolerant to gluten and dairy in any form or quantity: I'm somewhat allergic to bread wheat. Turkish food has the advantage that you can easily work out what's in it and alternatives to those problem foods are routinely used.

Getting away from Turkey, even within the eastern Mediterranean, and it gets hard to avoid wheat and dairy. So the concept of "Mediterranean diet" isn't very useful. But learning to cook Turkish is easy and books and ingredients are easy to get.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 21 - 09:40 PM

From the Mayo Clinic site about the Mediterranean Diet:

The Mediterranean diet is a way of eating based on the traditional cuisine of countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea. While there is no single definition of the Mediterranean diet, it is typically high in vegetables, fruits, whole grains, beans, nut and seeds, and olive oil.

The main components of Mediterranean diet include:

• Daily consumption of vegetables, fruits, whole grains and healthy fats
  
• Weekly intake of fish, poultry, beans and eggs
  
• Moderate portions of dairy products
  
• Limited intake of red meat

Other important elements of the Mediterranean diet are sharing meals with family and friends, enjoying a glass of red wine and being physically active.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 21 - 10:55 PM

I like the meat nuts seafood and veg, but can't do the fruit, beans, or grains.

Wine is ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 07 May 21 - 12:57 AM

So grapes are ok, Mrrzy? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 21 - 01:03 AM

I had a problem with milk for quite a while and cut way back, before realizing that cultured milk (yogurt and cheese) didn't give me the same sinus problems. Maybe the cultured/fermented aspect of grapes to wine is the same. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:36 AM

The Mayo Clinic has it right when they refer to the "Mediterranean diet" as a way of eating. I'd go further and call it a way of life. Calling this healthy way of eating a "diet" relegates it to the level of the fad diets being lauded (worryingly - non-medics advocating what almost amounts to medical advice...) in this thread. For at least a decade, the eating in our house fits the Mayo definition very nicely, but we got to it via our visits to Italy and enjoying and adopting the "Italian way" of eating. No prescriptive diet books making a fortune for charlatans, no dipping in and out, no failing and starting again. The cooking is simple, you don't need mountains of ingredients or a huge array of herbs and spices, and many of the dishes can be rustled up in a very short time. What's not to like? Incidentally, on the matter of so-called "healthy fats," the only unhealthy fats are the artificially hydrogenated ones. Butter is a major part of cooking in much of Italy (think risottos) and Parmesan cheese is also prevalent. Whether butter and olive oil are healthy or not depends solely on the amounts you eat. All things in moderation, only the freshest and best-quality ingredients, plenty of vegetables. That is not a diet. You can still get fat on it, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:57 AM

When it comes to milk, we stopped using it for long drinks or sticking it on breakfast cereals, etc., years ago. We still have it in tea and coffee, but where we used milk before we now use oat "milk" (with no added sugar). I find that fine in porridge but not in coffee. I must say that my guts have felt much better as a result. Incidentally, if you think lactose is an issue for you in dairy foods, there's very little or no lactose at all in mature cheddar or Parmesan. Good to know!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 05:39 AM

When it comes to grapes, I can cheerfully munch my way through half a pound or more, especially if they're Sable grapes, but my guts will not feel good the next day. When you drink most wine, you are not consuming much, if any, of the grape sugars, and you are not eating the skins or flesh. I think there's a clue there...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:25 AM

Yeah, I corrected folks early on who thought by Diet I meant Weightloss regimen when what I had actually meant was Way of eating. We do need a different word for Way of eating, as in Mediterranean diet or, in this thread's case, keto diet. I had not intended the thread title to be misleading, but it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:27 AM

When my wife was working as a dietitian she came across a survey article that listed 51 different kinds of dairy intolerance. It can be to sugars, fats or protein. The one she has is a form of casein intolerance - it is genetically linked to schizophrenia, which some of her family have had.   Casein in any form produces horrible psychic effects.

Lactose intolerance is normal - adult tolerance of lactose is a recent mutation (arising independently in different parts of the world). It's the easiest kind of dairy intolerance to manage. At the other extreme, almost nobody with anaphylaxis to dairy protein lives into adulthood.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 21 - 12:24 PM

Cultured dairy products are nearly lactose-free - the microbes eat the lactose. So yogurt is generally ok for cats, though they're usually lactose intolerant. (Hedgehogs are much more seriously intolerant, I wouldn't try it with them).

One of the odder kinds of dairy intolerance is "total cow allergy", to beef or any form of dairy. I don't know what the offending allergen is.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 21 - 12:54 PM

Mrrzy you could have confused this thread if you'd brought up a Diet of Worms. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 07 May 21 - 02:20 PM

The etymology of the word diet shows that it comes originally from the Greek through Latin and then Old French.

Having studied Latin, Anglo-Saxon and Middle English, as well as Geography I use the word diet in its original meaning as what a person tends to eat in normal life. It wasn't until more recently (historically speaking) that it also took on the meaning of a prescribed restriction of food for medical - or other - reasons.

I certainly do not equate the word "diet" with "fad diet". There are some fad diets (prescribed or restricted eating plans) but there are also some healthy eating plans. One does not necessarily equate to the other.

diet (n.1)

c. 1200, "regular food," from Old French diete (13c.) "diet, pittance, fare," from Medieval Latin dieta "parliamentary assembly," also "a day's work; daily food allowance, food," from Latin diaeta "prescribed way of life," from Greek diaita, originally "way of life, regimen, dwelling," related to diaitasthai "lead one's life," and from diaitan, originally "separate, select" (food and drink), frequentative of *diainysthai "take apart," from dia "apart" (see dia-) + ainysthai "take," from PIE root *ai- (1) "to give, allot."

From late 14c. as "customary way of eating," also "food considered in relation to its quantity and effects," and "a course of food regulated by a physician or by medical rules," often a restriction of food or certain foods; hence to put (someone) on a diet (mid-15c.). The adjective in the sense of "slimming, having reduced calories" (Diet Coke, etc.) is attested by 1963, originally in American English.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:10 PM

I've just had a conversation with my brother who has the discipline to change his diet sufficiently to lower his cholesterol to the degree that he could stop taking the statin drug to control it. He said it means eating an almost vegetarian diet (with some fish thrown in on occasion). His total is down around 144 right now. Good work. Mine used to be fairly low naturally, and I'm pretty sure a less selective diet has been a contributor to the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 21 - 06:23 PM

Mrrzy is spot on about how old keto is. R.M. Wilder and W.D. Winter, "The threshold of ketogenesis", J. Biol. Chem. 1922, 52:401. Cited in Ekvall and Ekvall, "Pediatric Nutrition in Chronic Diseases and Developmental Disorders" - they mention that the idea of selective starvation to control seizures goes back a few centuries

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:25 PM

Quite so, Jack. Unfortunately, the overriding context of the discussion of keto here has little or nothing to do with epilepsy. "Like it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:45 PM

Correct, complete, factual information is essential in my opinion.

An ex-colleague of my husband who heard that Atkins is higher protein than some other diets, did not read the actual Atkins information but decided that he had free reign to eat a great big fatty plate of bacon and eggs every day for breakfast, or steak and eggs for lunch with little or no vegetable matter.

Or an ex-colleague of mine who heard the tail end of a documentary about the 5:2 Fast Diet and thought all she could consume on the fasting days was tea or water. She didn't read the actual 5:2 Fast Diet information and was surprised to learn that the calorie restriction for the fasting days is easy to live with, especially knowing that she could eat normally on the non-fasting days.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 08 May 21 - 08:50 PM

My posts are about what worked for me and about healthy balanced eating plans with lots of veges, fruit, good proteins, wholegrains, legumes, nuts, seeds etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 May 21 - 11:32 PM

I thought it had been demonstrated long ago that pretty much no supplements were what they said or did what they claimed.

Helen, dear, yeah, I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 21 - 07:14 AM

The one thing that is clear about micronutrient supplements is that there can't be any general answers about whether they help. There are three different variables:

- individual variations in metabolism
- nutrient density of the diet
- cofactors that affect bioavailability.

We now know a lot about how people's metabolic pathways can vary. Thousands of variations are catalogued as "inborn errors of metabolism", some diagnosable by DNA sequencing and some not, with consequences ranging from death in the womb to early dementia. None is all that common but cumulatively they add up. And you can catch nutrient malabsorption at any age - many quite common diseases can cause it. (Worldwide, tropical sprue may be the most important).

Human diets are far more variable now than before. The nutrient densities of foods can depend on the soil and fertilizer use where they're grown, the crop variety, storage and transport methods, processing, packaging and light exposure in the shop. Nutrient tables like the USDA's or McCance and Widdowson can't take account of all that.

And whether a nutrient gets through to do its thing may depend on what else you eat, when, and who you're sharing your body with. Eggs can block biotin absorption: a biotin level in the diet above the RDA may be nowhere near enough if eggs are a major protein source for you. Eat lots of cabbage (of some varieties but NOT all) and you may need extra iodine. Alcohol can block thiamine absorption badly enough to cause irreversible brain damage. Intestinal worms can eat up your pyridoxine and folate before you get a chance.

No population-wide policy can address all of this, and doctors rarely know about it in useful detail. If you can identify why your nutritional requirements might be idiosyncratic, and spot the right symptoms, you can do better.

(I take a high dose of vitamin A every two or three weeks. The reasons are straight out of a medical textbook, and I know it's worked within hours, but I haven't the faintest idea why my diet isn't providing enough - should be well above RDA).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 10:18 AM

Your best shot, as ever, is to eat a good mixture of grub, going for freshness and top quality. Junk food, fast food, a rare treat only. In people with no underlying medical issues, supplements are scarcely needed, if at all. There is concern about Vitamin D deficiency in winter, as good food sources are the exception. Folate is one to watch. Eat your greens and beans in abundance. What's not to like? Veganism is is a self-imposed risk. Not for me, not ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 09 May 21 - 04:52 PM

Thanks for that information, Jack. It's a good reminder that we are all different.

In Australia, one of the micronutrients we need to add to our diet is selenium because it is deficient in soil here, so I eat a handful of brazil nuts at least a couple of times a week. My hypothyroid condition is helped by a bit of a selenium boost.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:02 PM

Selenium is deficient in soils in limited areas of Australia. It's unlikely that most Aussies will suffer from a deficiency. I have many relatives in Oz, in both Perth and the Melbourne areas. They are all hale and hearty and they appear to care not a jot about potential deficiencies. My philosophy on all this is to stop worrying and enjoy life. A handful of Brazils is a bloody good idea, because I love Brazils. Until tonight I was blissfully unaware of their selenium content. Good ol' rainforests, eh? ;-).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:38 PM

Hypothyroidism. Need selenium.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:42 PM

Selenium is very unevenly distributed - in parts of China it reaches toxic levels in the soil. The medical archaeologists doing the dig at Soutra Aisle a few miles from where I live found that a particular herb with a high selenium content was prescribed as a spring tonic by the mediaeval monks - probably for its effects on the thyroid as Helen described. So was selenium deficiency a local problem? There is a resource to help answer that, the geochemical atlas of Britain. I've read through relevant parts of it when my wife had patients in a place that seemed to have something endemically toxic that had been poisoning families within an area a few hundred yards across for generations. Unfortunately that was just below the atlas's resolution, but it's much more detailed than you'd expect to be possible. If people lived entirely off their gardens the variations in their mineral intake would be huge.

Another trace element like that is manganese. Robert McCarrison investigated that decades ago in India. Deficiency was a serious problem in Bengal, not at all in Punjab. Bengalis are rice-eating vegetarians, Punjabis are wheat-eating omnivores. So Bengalis had a use for manganese supplementation and Punjabis didn't. And in many parts of the world a normal diet can have toxic levels of the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 21 - 07:47 PM

I've adjusted the settings in My Fitness Pal to show me the pie chart of my intake during the day. I switched it to tracking carbs, fats, and protein, and it's helpful in seeing what is going on. I've looked to see what their Premium account covers - they don't offer enough more to make it worth $50 a year (though I'd love to hear from anyone who uses it for a comparison of the plans).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 07:50 PM

In the words of The Richard Dawkins atheist bus, stop worrying and enjoy life!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:11 PM

Not helpful advice when trying to adjust to a wonky thyroid, Steve.

The 17 Best Protein Sources for Vegans and Vegetarians

One thing they list is the sprouted grains breads - I buy them sometimes, but it sounds like a tedious process to make. "Ezekiel" bread - does anyone make it?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:27 PM

If you want helpful advice for a wonky thyroid, Maggie, don't look here - see a professional!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 21 - 10:46 PM

Why don't you just stop raining on this parade? Every other post you have something dismissive about the other remarks - we've had this problem before with you in this thread. We're grownups, there are a number of advanced degrees here, we have talked to our doctors, and we can make up our own minds about these suggestions without that kind of "help." And I'm tired of deleting various squabbles that you're bringing up. Be polite or go find someplace else to participate.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:00 AM

For maintaining a keto diet sprouted grains are just as bad as ordinary ones - in fact their GI is likely to be higher. The point of some diets is what you DON'T eat, and adding magic ingredients doesn't change that. People often screw up that way with diets for food intolerance - if you can't tolerate gluten grains, bread made with wheat is always going to make you sick no matter how much quinoa, linseed, oats, millet and soya you mix in with it. Or if it comes in a brown paper bag with "organic" printed on it in green ink.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 05:21 AM

The problem with the thread is that it's turning into cranks' corner, Maggie. However, I'll leave y'all to it and won't post in it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: gillymor
Date: 10 May 21 - 07:34 AM

Here is the link to the healthline.com article The seventeen best sources of protein for vegans and vegetarians.. The link below led me to an interesting article on pistachios and melatonin.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:07 AM

That Healthline article is basically marketing hype for the "health food" industry and even discounting the glaring booboos it has close to zero relevance to what Mrrzy is after.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 21 - 12:26 PM

When I went to that page the pistachio article was below.

Yes, these pages tend to be on aggregator sites that pull together material and are meant as click bait. But sometimes you find something interesting in there that you can track down.

Healthy carbs do exist but we are habituated to foods that have way too many. Perhaps the invention of the sandwich was the downfall of the Western human diet. Learning to eat things without bread attached is a process to work on.

I avoided wheat for a couple of years while I was being treated for Polymyalgia Rheumatica (PMR). It was just my own theory of what might be helpful to get over an inflammatory disease that might have been partly a result of my diet. The steroids worked and were tapered, I don't know if the diet made a difference. I do eat wheat again now, and sometimes wonder if I'm tempting fate (though in fact, I think it was the stress of the job that went from great to awful with the hiring of a new dean who proceeded to make everyone as miserable as possible with a reorganization.) I retired right about the same time as the last of the prednisone was administered.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:57 PM

As a note to reading the original research papers on medical science (and any other fields): I use Google Scholar to track down things for a gardening site I work for. There is a research part of the site where I can share summaries and abstracts of papers (that usually cost to download if you're not a subscriber to the scholarly journal). We do the fair use process of posting the abstract and a link to the paper if anyone wants to buy it.

Today I used Google's Chrome Extension called Unpaywall that searches university library repositories and other scholarly locations (i.e., governmental institutes) for free versions of the paid articles. It took universities a while to catch on, but many of them now have their own library repositories so the next to last version of the paper to be published can be stored in a way the school that pays the researchers can use the paper without paying the subscription fee to use it. Google compares authors and content and comes back with an email and a spreadsheet with a field that includes the link to the repository if it is parked in one. There are several ways to send the query, and the results are sent in a spreadsheet to your email address.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/unpaywall/iplffkdpngmdjhlpjmppncnlhomiipha

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 10 May 21 - 04:48 PM

Just briefly mentioning the Atkins diet again, one of the thoughts I have had over the years about the "controversies" stirred up about it is that the fast food giants and the sugar giants would have hated it. The Atkins diet plan focuses on healthy veges, fruit, proteins, wholegrains, legumes, and healthy fats, i.e. everything except white carbs - hot chips/fries, battered chicken and fish, burger buns, pizza bases etc - and high sugar content - sugary drinks, sugar in baked goods, sugar in low-fat yoghurt, sugar hidden in all sorts of foods from the supermarket shelf etc. It would have had those people spinning in fear. They would have hit it with every marketing - and fearmongering - tool at their disposal.

In this era the regular diet, in the sense of habitual eating habits, of the developed countries has an extremely high proportion of junk food consumed within the populations. Any move away from that has to be healthier.

Your great-to-awful job sounds very, very much like mine. I was happy to retire because of management reorganisations which had no basis in the reality of the jobs themselves. Every new manager needed to show how "forward-thinking" they were by throwing out the old (tried, tested and true) and replacing it with the current management fad. My stress levels are way more healthy now, and my sleep patterns are pretty much back to normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:14 PM

Blicky.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:42 PM

Yep, Mrrzy! Dilbert knows the situation.

Dilbert is my favourite cartoon series. I have some of the books, I used to read them at work to help maintain my sanity. And I used to stick some of the more relevant ones up on the noticeboard to pee off the managers and make my colleagues laugh and/or cry because it was almost like the managers read Dilbert and thought it was a how-to manual.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 12 May 21 - 01:28 AM

I turned the TV on this morning and a cooking show called Mary's Kitchen Crush was on. She was cooking her own versions of what she called Stadium Staples for her friends who were coming over to watch some sport on TV.

Usually, most of the cooking shows seem to be pushing relatively healthy, balanced food but I was gobsmacked. She made what she called pretzel hot dogs, which was a hot dog wrapped in a dough with two tablespoons each of honey and butter and more salt than I would use, and she also made her version of corn dogs, but she cooked a very cheesy macaroni bake, then sliced it up when it was cold and dipped it into a batter which included corn meal, and salt and sugar, then deep fried them.

Thinking about the ingredients, it was pretty much everything I choose not to eat: deep fried, salty, sweet, white flour, butter (which I do eat as a treat now and then, usually on baked veges), processed meat, white pasta.

Each to their own, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 May 21 - 09:28 AM

Me too, on Dilbert and offices.

Mac and cheese was one thing I had to have a small bit of at my last potluck. Luckily it wasn't as good as our family's so I was able to have just that one bite...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 12 May 21 - 04:59 PM

I just read this article about what palaeofaeces can tell us about how our gut microbiome has changed in more industrialised societies:

What 2,000-year-old poo says about our gut bugs

One of the influences on modern day gut microbiome is the use - or overuse - of antibiotics. Coincidentally, I just watched a medical documentary about that this week. Another is the modern diet in many developed countries, including lots of junk or fast foods.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 12 May 21 - 05:16 PM

I know I am being picky, but surely palaeofaeces would be from some 10,000 years ago or earlier, before farming took off, when food would have been hunted or found growing wild.
By 2,000 years ago there would have been farms and vineyards. Maybe not highly processed food, but not just a stone age diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 12 May 21 - 06:59 PM

You're probably right, Jos. :-)

Although the poo was found in rock shelters and not more agriculturally developed areas so hunting and gathering for food might have been the norm.

"An international team of researchers analysed ancient poo samples from rock shelters in the US and Mexico, and compared the microbial make-up to those found in modern samples from Western and developing countries."

It's still an interesting comparison with modern day life in developed countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 21 - 03:07 AM

"Palæo-" just means "old", and only relates specifically to "palæolithic" in some contexts.

I saw a keto diet magazine on a newsstand yesterday. That is something that shouldn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 21 - 05:21 PM

I've adjusted My Fitness Pal to show me the graphic as I enter foods, and it is remarkably difficult to reduce carbs to below 50%. The best I've managed so far is to combine protein and fat to slightly overtake the carb percentage. I'm nowhere near the 50% protein the doctor mentioned, so I'm wondering if I misunderstood her (and frankly, I don't know that that much is healthy gut-wise). I'll be researching and working on this myself, but at my blood retest in a couple of months I'll ask for a clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 17 May 21 - 05:43 PM

Maybe 'paleo' means 'very old'.
If it just meant 'old' we could we could go back fifty years: prawn cocktail, ham and pineapple chunks on cocktail sticks stuck in a grapefruit to look like a hedgehog, black forest gateau ... butterscotch angel delight ...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 21 - 09:08 AM

Older'n dirt!

Stilly, very interested in your progress.

I am not sure what my *percentage* carbs is but I try to keep them under 50 *grams* per day.

This weekend on my YAY post-vax visits I ate some, not a lot, delicious bread with some of my delicious meals, and had small bites of people's desserts, and while I was shaking a lot thought I was mentally OK till my son called from his loony bin to ask about places to stay as they are letting him out, bad (which means he'll go to jail, worse) - I was at the wheel on my way home- and I got frantically distressed instead of just Oh, Shit, and had to pull over.

Back to really no carbs for me. Ate cabbage last night, yum.

Subject: RE: BS: Mrrzy is living in interesting times...
From: Helen
Date: 18 May 21 - 03:18 PM

Hi Mrrzy, I hope everything works out ok.

You seem to have been reminded not to go off the carbs wagon, though.

Cabbage. Not my go-to food for most things although I do like coleslaw served with hot chicken, but, I saw part of a Rick Stein (UK chef, one of my faves) TV show From Venice to Istanbul a couple of days ago and he was in Istanbul. He ate this at a cafe and then showed how to cook it:

Etli Kapuska – Turkish Cabbage Stew With Meat

I might try it out. It has good flavours and spices in it and it looks fairly easy to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:55 AM

Ok definite issue: 3rd broken toe in the last year-ish after a lifetime of no broken bones. If I stub it, it breaks, now. Moving diet in direction of more calcium, more things that enhance Ca absorption, and fewer things that inhibit same.
This one might actually be a broken foot... Urgent care, when they open.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:28 AM

Mrrzy, that's worrying. Another reason not to eat an unbalanced diet, IMHO.

This is not going to help you yet because the scientific research is in its very early stages but you might find it interesting:

Caterpillar's venom may help treat nervous system disorders
such as epilepsy

and kill parasites in sheep - which probably won't be useful for you. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:44 PM

Depends on the caterpillar, Helen - we have some here called the "Asp" or Puss caterpillar, from the flannel moth, and that sting is so painful that you want to chop off the body part that got the sting.

I use My Fitness Pal (the free version) to track my calcium. I enter the foods each day and have it set so I see in general the amount of calcium I will likely have eaten (I also have it set for protein and carbs, but you can set it for sodium, for fiber, etc.) After dinner I check the amount and if I have only eaten 75% of what I need, I break a 600mg tablet and take half, to make up the 25% (1200mg daily for me.) Your needs may vary. And if you're needing to build up calcium in your bones, you need to be doing weight bearing exercises.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 08:41 PM

The research is about one specific caterpillar with a venomous sting.

We used to get spitfire bugs here - I'm not sure what their scientific name is but they look as jazzy as those ones referred to in the article. In fact, I suspect they might be related. If one was disturbed it would spit venom and it hurt like heck for days, as I recall. I haven't seen them here for years. They could be used as an alternative to capsicum spray because they would deter even the toughest, most determined criminals or muggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 08:03 AM

Weight-bearing exercise will be looked into too, thanks! Phylates and oxalates already being researched.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 09:31 AM

I'm not a gym-goer, so I do my weight bearing exercises when I go to the supermarket. I carry everything in shopping bags. It's surprising how heavy the bags get especially with tinned food or large liquid items like milk and juice or big tins of olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 10:37 AM

You can lift things around the house, use weights with exercises, put on a backpack with cans in it when you go for a walk. I'd look into how long, how often, etc.